Spark Plug Issue for RBR

[SGWilko]

I seem to recall, sometime last year, someone posted on here about the McLaren F1 team, and a comment by Mercedes, that the engine, once up to speed and over a certain amount of revs, did not rely on the spark plugs for ignition.

Does anyone remember that, and if so, how does that fall in the light of the issue Vettel had????

[Sonic]

Waaaay over my head

[Mark]

yes. That was my understanding.

[Azumanga Davo]

I seem to recall, sometime last year, someone posted on here about the McLaren F1 team, and a comment by Mercedes, that the engine, once up to speed and over a certain amount of revs, did not rely on the spark plugs for ignition.

Does anyone remember that, and if so, how does that fall in the light of the issue Vettel had????

Dieselisation process?

Remember, each engine has different ways of working. So one problem may be more apparent on one engine than the other.

[Jag_Warrior]

Sounds pretty fascinating. But the spark has to come from somewhere. Does anybody remember how this worked, or maybe a link to the old thread?

[ioan]

I seem to recall, sometime last year, someone posted on here about the McLaren F1 team, and a comment by Mercedes, that the engine, once up to speed and over a certain amount of revs, did not rely on the spark plugs for ignition.

Does anyone remember that, and if so, how does that fall in the light of the issue Vettel had????

There was something along those lines written somewhere but it's inconclusive in this case because RBR use Renault engines not Mercedes.

[Rollo]

I seem to recall, sometime last year, someone posted on here about the McLaren F1 team, and a comment by Mercedes, that the engine, once up to speed and over a certain amount of revs, did not rely on the spark plugs for ignition.

Does anyone remember that, and if so, how does that fall in the light of the issue Vettel had????

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128010&highlight=diesel

I went to the effort of getting the answer myself. So I went and emailed McLaren Electronics:

Originally Posted by McLaren Electronics View Post
Dear Andrew,

The spark plugs used by Team Vodafone McLaren Mercedes are supplied by NGK. During any given run by the Formula One car, the spark plugs are enabled for approximately 40 seconds before the engine management system switches them off. At this point, the internal pressures of the engines are suffcient to keep the engine firing on compression ignition only. Subject to engine management, sensors will re-enable the spark plugs for the slower portions of the run such as pitstops.

Thank you for your enquiry,
[email:byi9aged]enquiry@mclarenelectronics.com[/email:byi9aged]

There you have it. For about 97% of a Grand Prix, the cars are running as Diesels.
Case closed.

Based on what I knew about Top-Fuel Dragsters I theorised, that the pressures in an F1 engine would be enough to make the engines "go diesel".

Red Bull initially reported the new exhaust system was to blame for the loss of speed, but later stated it was actually a faulty spark plug that cost them the race.
If you read both of these things together, it's not difficult to make the leap and suggest that both statements are actually true. If they're firing the spark plugs on both the exhaust and compression strokes, then exhaust gases would be being burnt, and thus the engine should breathe better.
A so-called "wasted spark" isn't exactly a new idea, and has been used in the past by Alfa Romeo (Twinspark) and Volkswagen (on their VR6 engines), and on the Mazda B engines which are in their Miata and old 323.

[Jag_Warrior]

Good info. Thanks, Rollo. :up:

[Donney]

Thanks a lot Rollo.

[ioan]

Great info, thanks.

[UltimateDanGTR]

You need to be one bright spark to work all this out.


sorry, I thought I'd get that awful pun in! :D

[I am evil Homer]

Very good of Mac to get back to you Rollo and a fascinating insight.

[SGWilko]

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128010&highlight=diesel


Based on what I knew about Top-Fuel Dragsters I theorised, that the pressures in an F1 engine would be enough to make the engines "go diesel".

Red Bull initially reported the new exhaust system was to blame for the loss of speed, but later stated it was actually a faulty spark plug that cost them the race.
If you read both of these things together, it's not difficult to make the leap and suggest that both statements are actually true. If they're firing the spark plugs on both the exhaust and compression strokes, then exhaust gases would be being burnt, and thus the engine should breathe better.
A so-called "wasted spark" isn't exactly a new idea, and has been used in the past by Alfa Romeo (Twinspark) and Volkswagen (on their VR6 engines), and on the Mazda B engines which are in their Miata and old 323.

Thanks Rollo, nice info. Also, ashamedly being a previous owner ;) , the Citoen engine in the 2CV and derivatives sparked on ignition and exhaust strokes - not having a distributor. An actually very clever engine that.

[truefan72]

Good info. Thanks, Rollo. :up:

yes excellent info. And even more impressive is that mclaren wrote back and provided such detailed information. That's really nice to see :up:

[K-Pu]

yes excellent info. And even more impressive is that mclaren wrote back and provided such detailed information. That's really nice to see :up:

Indeed. I always thought an F1 team wouldn´t "degrade" themselves by answering an email. Maybe I´m totally wrong but I saw F1 teams as fortresses in another world too busy to care about the most important part of F1: the fans.

[Rollo]

An F1 team didn't answer my email.

It was answered by someone at McLaren Electronic Systems, who although are part of the McLaren Group, are separate and distinct within the group.

Actually what I find disturbing is that MES in partnership with Microsoft have been the official ECU supplier to F1 since 2008.
http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2006/July/050706-01.html

Does that mean that sodding paperclip shows up when there's a problem?

[I am evil Homer]

"it looks like you're trying to re-map the engine, would you like some help"

[Mark]

Actually what I find disturbing is that MES in partnership with Microsoft have been the official ECU supplier to F1 since 2008.
http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2006/July/050706-01.html

Does that mean that sodding paperclip shows up when there's a problem?

You didn't know this. There was lots of hooha at the time as to McLaren being responsible for the ECU's for all the teams. I guess that's not an issue any more.

[Daniel]

"it looks like you're trying to re-map the engine, would you like some help"
It looks like you're trying to photocopy a Ferrari dossier? Would you like directions to the nearest print shop?

:D

[I am evil Homer]

You didn't know this. There was lots of hooha at the time as to McLaren being responsible for the ECU's for all the teams. I guess that's not an issue any more.

Except as pointed out it's not really "McLaren" it's a company the overall company called McLaren owns but is it's own entity. F1 is a very closed shop so these 'conflicts' are bound to arise...the fact MES in various guises and names has been in F1 for a long time meant they were the best people for the job.

[ioan]

It looks like you're trying to photocopy a Ferrari dossier? Would you like directions to the nearest print shop?

:D

:rotflmao: :up:

[Daniel]

:rotflmao: :up:
I really am surprised it took so long for someone to reply to my post :( :p