What a boring race

[Garry Walker]

I said before that no refuelling will make the races boring, just like they were in the beginning of 90s and in 80s, complete processions.

So what happened today? All leaders pitted within a 3 laps for new tyres and that was it, no action on track.

BORING.

[F1boat]

But then it became super!!!

[Dave B]

It was the track as much as anything. Bland featureless desert with a stupid twisty middle bit, all because of Bernie's desire to kiss Arab backside.

Barely any overtaking, poor camerawork and directing, Legard and Brundle sounded asleep, I can't be bothered to write any more!

Roll on Australia :D

[ioan]

Yep a bore fest even if I like the outcome.

And no it hasn't anything to do with the track, which with 3 straight provides at least 3 overtaking possibilities per lap.

It has to be with the idiotic rules about tires.

[Garry Walker]

Yep a bore fest even if I like the outcome.

And no it hasn't anything to do with the track, which with 3 straight provides at least 3 overtaking possibilities per lap.

It has to be with the idiotic rules about tires.tyres? I am more angry about the refuelling ban.

[DexDexter]

I said before that no refuelling will make the races boring, just like they were in the beginning of 90s and in 80s, complete processions.

So what happened today? All leaders pitted within a 3 laps for new tyres and that was it, no action on track.

BORING.

Yep I agree, it was just what I expected. It not as easy to get things wrong strategywise as before, so dull races ahead.

[ioan]

tyres? I am more angry about the refuelling ban.

That too, but IMO if they could start the race on whatever tire they wish and wouldn't have to use less suited tires too, maybe things would be a bit more alive.

[Garry Walker]

That too, but IMO if they could start the race on whatever tire they wish and wouldn't have to use less suited tires too, maybe things would be a bit more alive.

But then everyone would still use the same strategy :P

[ioan]

But then everyone would still use the same strategy :P

Not sure about that. It depends on the performance difference between the various tire compounds.

[DexDexter]

Mark my words, refuelling will return pretty soon.

[garyshell]

I said before that no refuelling will make the races boring, just like they were in the beginning of 90s and in 80s, complete processions.

So what happened today? All leaders pitted within a 3 laps for new tyres and that was it, no action on track.

BORING.


And we needed a separate thread for this? Was it just so Garry could see his name on the index page?

Gary

[ArrowsFA1]

Didn't see too much difference compared with last season. Fewer pitlane passes perhaps, but other than that I think the Schumacher/Button/Webber "battle" illustrated the real issue. Unless the car in front has a problem (like Vettel did) passing is almost impossible with or without fuel stops.

[Garry Walker]

And we needed a separate thread for this? Was it just so Garry could see his name on the index page?

Gary

I found no suitable thread for this to be posted in. I had an opinion and I decided to voice it, you know, like when people talk to you and say "id like fries with that burger"

[philipbain]

BORING.

As opposed to the usual thrillfest that you get at Bahrain?

I think the lack of refuelling gives more emphasis to racing on the track rather than flat out sprints between fuel stops and trying to leapfrog other cars through strategy rather than racing. All i'll say is that its the sort of thing James Allen used to get excited about.....

[Hawkmoon]

There were plenty of processional races with refuelling. Give it a chance.

[F1boat]

Mark my words, refuelling will return pretty soon.

Of course, that's FIA we are talking about.

[Daniel]

Agree with Garry. Crap rules. Why don't they just allow them to use one set of tyres for the race? The result will be the same and even more poxy cost saving to be had. I think this year is going to be an average one tbh

[ioan]

And we needed a separate thread for this?

Why not? :confused:

It's easier to have threads dedicated to a subject than trying to find posts about a certain topic in the race week-end thread.

And why those it bother you?

[ioan]

I think the lack of refuelling gives more emphasis to racing on the track...

That must be why Rosberg tried so hard to overtake Vettel.

[Josti]

...poor camerawork and directing...


Couldn't agree more with that statement. I have the feeling that for 1/4 of the race I was watching at Webbers car, while nothing was happening! They've could have showed a bit more of the Lotus's too, especially towards the end when things got steady.

And well the location, just dreadful, boring circuit that has absolutely no appeal for a season opener. Looking forward to Australia.

[ioan]

And well the location, just dreadful, boring circuit that has absolutely no appeal for a season opener. Looking forward to Australia.

Well not all the places on the Earth look the same, so I'm not sure what to make of your comment.

[RS]

It was the track as much as anything. Bland featureless desert with a stupid twisty middle bit, all because of Bernie's desire to kiss Arab backside.

Barely any overtaking, poor camerawork and directing, Legard and Brundle sounded asleep, I can't be bothered to write any more!

Roll on Australia :D

I agree. It would be nice to start the season somewhere a bit more special.

Hope you're right about Australia!

[VkmSpouge]

Not a very interesting race. A handful of overtaking moves, the only crash in the entire race wasn't caught on camera and the only point of real interest was Vettel's exhaust at the end. Hopefully Melbourne will be an improvement.

[wedge]

Didn't see too much difference compared with last season. Fewer pitlane passes perhaps, but other than that I think the Schumacher/Button/Webber "battle" illustrated the real issue. Unless the car in front has a problem (like Vettel did) passing is almost impossible with or without fuel stops.

:up:

At least after a third of the race/first pit window you couldn't make a good prediction for the finish.

[ratonmacias]

it should be no refuelling and no tires or refuelling and tires right now almost everybody burnt cautious laps till the middle of the race. it doesnt pay to risk at the beggining of the race just ask sutil kubica and the hulk

[Josti]

Well not all the places on the Earth look the same, so I'm not sure what to make of your comment.

The fact that Bahrain is quite a characterless circuit, which they thought would be cleverly put away by adding silly colours everywhere.

Wouldn't you much rather see a populair event like Australia as the season opener, one where you can actually see people on the grandstands.

[Sonic]

I come away with 3 main points from this "race"

1) The top ten starting on different tyres made zero difference! Bridgestone has always been very conservative in its tyres so there seemed little difference between Rubens on the hard and the cars agead on the soft - so what the hell was the point?

2) The first corner. Now that (on a race track where overtaking is at its easiest) the field has discovered that passing is impossible I expect Melbournes first lap to be a lot more frantic as its the first, and only, passing chance in this era of racing.

3) The pitstops. I was expecting fireworks, but everyone seemed very methodical. After all the talk of 2.5s stops the best I saw was 4.0s.

Overall very anti climatic. :(

[N. Jones]

I said before that no refuelling will make the races boring, just like they were in the beginning of 90s and in 80s, complete processions.

So what happened today? All leaders pitted within a 3 laps for new tyres and that was it, no action on track.

BORING.

I agree but I blame the track more than anything else. Let's hope Australia is different.

[Malbec]

The problem is that the teams have decided to go for one stop strategies which kill the incentive to overtake. Why risk making a move on the guy in front when you might flatspot your tyres and live with the consequences for the next 40 laps?

Hopefully we'll see some more excitement as teams get used to new strategies and try taking some risks, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

I think the new section was pointless but the circuit still had a couple of overtaking spots - as it was proved by Kubica and others.

However, once a driver started pushing and closing the gap, the tyres were overheating in the other car's wake. In the BBC post race interview, Schumacher also complained about the restrictive tyre rules, which backs up Ioan's position.

Blaming the circuit and the refuelling ban is too easy. The core reason for the lack of overtaking hasn't changed: it's very difficult to follow another car closely because of the aerodynamics and tyre behaviour.

[Sonic]

The problem is that the teams have decided to go for one stop strategies which kill the incentive to overtake. Why risk making a move on the guy in front when you might flatspot your tyres and live with the consequences for the next 40 laps?

Hopefully we'll see some more excitement as teams get used to new strategies and try taking some risks, but I'm not holding my breath.

Yeah. I wouldn't hold your breath. The total pit time is something around 25-30s, and without the benefit of a lighter fuel load by stopping more it won't offer an advantage so no one will bother.

The only way we'll see a more varied pit stops is if there is a huge difference in the tyres so that you either go for shorts sprints on a super dooper soft or one stops on the hardest.

[Malbec]

Blaming the circuit and the refuelling ban is too easy. The core reason for the lack of overtaking hasn't changed: it's very difficult to follow another car closely because of the aerodynamics and tyre behaviour.

Actually the refuelling ban has had quite a strong effect. Previously it was not uncommon to have a lighter car having a go at a heavier one. Now, with the ban in effect, the cars all weigh much the same throughout the race taking away another factor that used to promote overtaking.

[ArrowsFA1]

Martin Whitmarsh (on BBC red button) talking about mandating two stops in a race, and making the tyres more marginal.

Martin Brundle and Jacques Villeneuve both talking about the aero, and as long as that doesn't change the amount of overtaking won't change.

[wedge]

I'd prefer a free-for-all regarding tyre strategy.

As in DTM and Aussie V8s mandatory stops can be a joke. Drivers will jump into the pits early and get their stops out of the way.

Prost:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8566042.stm

"If it was my decision," he said, "I would have left the freedom about the tyres - you have one soft, one hard and freedom.

"(It would be) exactly the same - you start the race with the tyres you qualify with but after that freedom. If you want to use only soft tyres, or only hard tyres, (in the race) you do what you want."

[DexDexter]

Actually the refuelling ban has had quite a strong effect. Previously it was not uncommon to have a lighter car having a go at a heavier one. Now, with the ban in effect, the cars all weigh much the same throughout the race taking away another factor that used to promote overtaking.

I don't understand how people didn't see this coming, I mean it was only about 15 years ago that we last had these endurance races. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: The only way the races are going to be exciting is if Bridgestone does something with the compounds.

[DazzlaF1]

It was the track as much as anything. Bland featureless desert with a stupid twisty middle bit, all because of Bernie's desire to kiss Arab backside.

Barely any overtaking, poor camerawork and directing, Legard and Brundle sounded asleep, I can't be bothered to write any more!

Roll on Australia :D

I have to agree, it did not help at all that Bahrain is not exactly the best circuit when it comes to race action and overtaking.

If you watched the F1 Forum afterwards, Martin Whitmarsh was saying that FOTA evaluated the proposal for 2 mandatory pit stops but was thrown out due to some teams objecting to it, but now he said that they may reconsider the proposal and get Bridgestone to develop a more "racier" tyre forcing drivers to make more than 1 stop.

That I think defintiely would help.

[Sonic]

I don't understand how people didn't see this coming, I mean it was only about 15 years ago that we last had these endurance races. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: The only way the races are going to be exciting is if Bridgestone does something with the compounds.

Indeed, and as Brisgestone arenot going to go to all that expense in their final year we are screwed. :(

Martin Whitmarsh (on BBC red button) talking about mandating two stops in a race, and making the tyres more marginal.

Martin Brundle and Jacques Villeneuve both talking about the aero, and as long as that doesn't change the amount of overtaking won't change.

I heard Whitmarsh say that and thought it was a crap idea. Mandating things is not the solution.

A broader range of compounds and more choice of compounds, a la the 80's, and the ability to cross-match them (for those of you old enough, A compounds on the rear, B on the left and C on the right was a good Alain Prost set-up, if I recall) would make it much more interesting.

Mandatory anything is against the idea of racing and ruins the chances of different strategies.

[Robinho]

Bahrain has proved plenty of time that you can overtake, last year (at the start of the season) cars were able to run less than a second apart without too many problems, but now they've all maximised the double diffusers we're back to 1.5 seconds gap. the only way you can now overtake (again) is if your out of position or on vastly different tyres, unless the driver in front makes a mistake or the car breaks.

i don't blame the lack of refuelling, in fact i think that makes it more likely as the cars are much more of a handful and change so much during tha race. until we get rid of Double diffusers (next year thankfully) we won't see much overtaking.

Webber was in a car that was 1 sec + faster than Button for large portions of the race and didn't get a sniff. Hamilton with Rosberg, Alonso on Vettel, Button on Schumacher, just to name a few could run within a seond and half easily but never looked like getting close to a pass - blame the diffusers

[BDunnell]

I heard Whitmarsh say that and thought it was a crap idea. Mandating things is not the solution.

A broader range of compounds and more choice of compounds, a la the 80's, and the ability to cross-match them (for those of you old enough, A compounds on the rear, B on the left and C on the right was a good Alain Prost set-up, if I recall) would make it much more interesting.

Mandatory anything is against the idea of racing and ruins the chances of different strategies.

Couldn't agree more.

[Sonic]

I heard Whitmarsh say that and thought it was a crap idea. Mandating things is not the solution.

A broader range of compounds and more choice of compounds, a la the 80's, and the ability to cross-match them (for those of you old enough, A compounds on the rear, B on the left and C on the right was a good Alain Prost set-up, if I recall) would make it much more interesting.

Mandatory anything is against the idea of racing and ruins the chances of different strategies.

+1

It was interesting back then with as you say Prost on different compounds round the car and Senna (IIRC) usually one compound all round.

[Wasted Talent]

:up:

At least after a third of the race/first pit window you couldn't make a good prediction for the finish.

Really? Apart from Vettel's exhaust nothing changed.

The whole race was dull, dull, dull. No strategy, no unknown what fuel is everybody running at the start, no drama from the pitstops.

Last season teams had to choose between going for pole and early stop, that has disappeared.

Last season teams could try to do something different to shake the order up.

Last season there were bigger differences between tyres, no-one had problems this year in what were relatively challenging conditions

Don't blame the circuit - it is the FACT that similar cars cannot get close and overtake.

I was really excited about this season, but if it is all going to be like this then I will be outside doing the gardening on Sundays soon.

Hope we have quite a few wet-dry races...................

WT

[djparky]

I lost interest after about 10 laps and switched over to a repeat of the Simpsons on Sky1- I may have seen it hundreds of times before but it was more entertaining

with or without refuelling this would have been a snoozefest anyway- it always is at Bahrain- at least I didn't pay money to watch it

F1 used to be ok pre refuelling through 80's and early 90's- I remember some great races when tyres were more marginal- I think that's what they've got to look at again- and make a concerted effort to look at aero- I saw a bit of the GP2 race- and it was alot more entertaining

mandatory pit stops are not the way to go

[UltimateDanGTR]

Am I the only one who thought this race was OK? classic? absolutely not, but i wouldnt say it was a snore fest.

some good battles throughout the field even if the car behind didnt always eventually catch the guy in front, guys with problems at the start coming through the pack, some good overtaking in the midfield, Lotus running well and an interesting 3 way battle at the front which i thought was hotting up until vettel's problem ultimately sacrificed him. Certainly better than some of the rubbish we went through last year, a generally interesting race. Maybe im insane though.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Am I the only one who thought this race was OK? classic? absolutely not, but i wouldnt say it was a snore fest.

some good battles throughout the field even if the car behind didnt always eventually catch the guy in front, guys with problems at the start coming through the pack, some good overtaking in the midfield, Lotus running well and an interesting 3 way battle at the front which i thought was hotting up until vettel's problem ultimately sacrificed him. Certainly better than some of the rubbish we went through last year, a generally interesting race. Maybe im insane though.

I agree - I don't think it was any more boring than last year's Bahrain GP. (Or the majority of dry races for that matter.) But people are dissapointed because this season was hyped up. It is interesting how everybody blames something different (track, no refuelling, aerodynamics, tyres). This would deserve a poll.

[Robinho]

i maintain its all down to the massive diffusers, if they can't get anywhere near each other there will be no passing, simples

[ioan]

I agree but I blame the track more than anything else.

Why?
It gives more overtaking opportunities than many other tracks!
Just because it is located in an Muslim country you lot shouldn't blame it for the stupid rules in F1.

[ioan]

i maintain its all down to the massive diffusers, if they can't get anywhere near each other there will be no passing, simples

Exactly, but let's thank the FIA for allowing double and triple decked diffusers last season just for the sake of dividing the teams, all this after introducing rules that were meant to reduce downforce levels by 50%.

[K-Pu]

Here in Spain some crazy journalist praised Ferrari´s diffuser because it was designed not only to add downforce to your car, but also to f*ck up the one behind you. What´s more interesting, the same journalist said F1 needed less aero in order to get more overtaking.

The thing is he can be right in both cases... Why GP2 is interesting even in Montmeló? Why don´t they really reduce aero efficiency, starting with having banned the DD´s this season? Now we have DTM-like diffusers, and cars built arount them.

That´s one of the main ingredients of the recipe of "Boredom-At-Bahrein", the other ones being a cup of B-Oring Track and a bit of Conservative Chicken Fear.

[Robinho]

Exactly, but let's thank the FIA for allowing double and triple decked diffusers last season just for the sake of dividing the teams.

i understand them letting them keep them last year - innovation to exploit a loophole in the rules i think is fair enough, but i do think they should have closed that loophole in the interpretation for this year, as they've all designed the cars around the diffusers now and they are more powerful than ever. it looks to me that we're back to the point where unless your 2 secs a lap quicker than the guy in front you can't get closer than 1.5sec.

[garyshell]

I found no suitable thread for this to be posted in. I had an opinion and I decided to voice it, you know, like when people talk to you and say "id like fries with that burger"


Like this one would not have sufficed:

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137258

Oh but then your headline of "What a boring race" would not have been so prominent. What a bore.

Gary

[MDS]

Yes, but F-1.com wants you to know that you're wrong:

And the general verdict is that the ban of refuelling, while creating a slow-burn effect initially, made the racing much more exciting.

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/3/10531.html

[Daniel]

Like this one would not have sufficed:

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137258

Oh but then your headline of "What a boring race" would not have been so prominent. What a bore.

Gary
Oh FFS he started a thread, if you want I can call a waaaaaaambulance for you. If you don't like it don't read it.

[V12]

What they need to do is

-Get rid of the stupid rule making the top 10 start on the tyres they qualified on
-Get rid of the even more stupid rule having two sets of tyres that need to be used in one race (so people can run non-stop if they want)
-Have the tyre supplier bring their entire inventory of tyres from very hard to very soft just like they used to. Allow the teams to run what they want, when they want it, at any point during the race.

As for the problems with overtaking due to aerodynamics and such, well no amount of silly mickey mouse regulations will fix that, unless they decide to go the whole hog and script the races WWF-style (which is what some people seem to want). Watch tin-tops or Formula Ford for that.

[woody2goody]

Am I the only one who thought this race was OK? classic? absolutely not, but i wouldnt say it was a snore fest.

some good battles throughout the field even if the car behind didnt always eventually catch the guy in front, guys with problems at the start coming through the pack, some good overtaking in the midfield, Lotus running well and an interesting 3 way battle at the front which i thought was hotting up until vettel's problem ultimately sacrificed him. Certainly better than some of the rubbish we went through last year, a generally interesting race. Maybe im insane though.

Yeah it was ok - no better than ok but not necessarily a borefest.

[harsha]

to quote from tinchote

stupid rules , stupid consequences

[F1boat]

Honestly I enjoyed the race very much, but because Ferrari won. Without Vettel's problems, I would probably have disappointed despite the interesting duel between the German and Alonso.

[jonny hurlock]

that was the most boringist race I have ever seen imho

[markabilly]

Here in Spain some crazy journalist praised Ferrari´s diffuser because it was designed not only to add downforce to your car, but also to f*ck up the one behind you. What´s more interesting, the same journalist said F1 needed less aero in order to get more overtaking.

The thing is he can be right in both cases... Why GP2 is interesting even in Montmeló? Why don´t they really reduce aero efficiency, starting with having banned the DD´s this season? Now we have DTM-like diffusers, and cars built arount them.

That´s one of the main ingredients of the recipe of "Boredom-At-Bahrein", the other ones being a cup of B-Oring Track and a bit of Conservative Chicken Fear.
Yes, it seems that the latest design goal is no longer to merely produce more downforce but to create turbulence designed to act in such a manner as to make it very difficult to pass.....

I wonder about some of those winglets, and if they are really helping handling or downforce, but just creating more turbulence.

Appearently, the venturi tunnels under the IRL cars are less effected by turbulence than are the wings, but at same time, do not produce the turbulence in their wake anywhere close to the DD. :vader:



Result:

This race was totally BORING after lap 2 or 3, and even the Vettel broken pipe, did not add any excitment since we all knew it was only a question of time before he was passed....and even those passes were like..... boring. :(

Take that busted pipe away, and there was not any point to watching the rest of race, unless you are such a die hard fan of a particular driver like Freddie, Lewis, yadada, that you just had to watch the rest of the race to see if they got lucky because somebody broke down in front and they picked up a spot...or even a win.....whoopie...I guess :rolleyes:

Thank God for my old VCR so I do not waste two hours of my life for nothing....

[Daniel]

Yes, it seems that the latest design goal is no longer to merely produce more downforce but to create turbulence designed to act in such a manner as to make it very difficult to pass.....

I wonder about some of those winglets, and if they are really helping handling or downforce, but just creating more turbulence.

Appearently, the venturi tunnels under the IRL cars are less effected by turbulence than are the wings, but at same time, do not produce the turbulence in their wake anywhere close to the DD. :vader:



Result:

This race was totally BORING after lap 2 or 3, and even the Vettel broken pipe, did not add any excitment since we all knew it was only a question of time before he was passed....and even those passes were like..... boring. :(

Take that busted pipe away, and there was not any point to watching the rest of race, unless you are such a die hard fan of a particular driver like Freddie, Lewis, yadada, that you just had to watch the rest of the race to see if they got lucky because somebody broke down in front and they picked up a spot...or even a win.....whoopie...I guess :rolleyes:

Thank God for my old VCR so I do not waste two hours of my life for nothing....
Agreed. Not to sound like a broken record but I have mentioned the turbulence in the past and said that the FIA should mandate that the air a certain distance past the car is laminar, ie not turbulent

[AndyL]

i maintain its all down to the massive diffusers, if they can't get anywhere near each other there will be no passing, simples

The diffusers are only a part of it, and not necessarily the major part. The aerodynamicists reckon that for a given amount of downforce, under-body structures produce a quarter of the turbulence that wings produce. They'd do better to cut downforce by restricting wings. However it's done, if we want to see a lot more overtaking then they need to be cutting downforce by at least a half, probably more. Minor tweaks to diffusers or wings aren't going to do that.

[truefan72]

tyres? I am more angry about the refuelling ban.

me too. As I said a while back
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=765748#post765748

this change has actually made GP racing worse

[Saint Devote]

Mark my words, refuelling will return pretty soon.

I would not discount that because the drivers did begin to pick up the pace and push as the cars became light again.

Maybe modern grand prix racing does not work when cars are heavy and maybe it has become more of a team involvement sport than it was.

[steveaki13]

It would be good if there were a greater range of tyres, so you could go very hard and try to non stop. Or softer and 1 stop or even really soft for a 2 stop race with the aim of going so fast that you can try to get past anyone looking after tyres on a longer run

Just what I would like to see.

[truefan72]

I would not discount that because the drivers did begin to pick up the pace and push as the cars became light again.

Maybe modern grand prix racing does not work when cars are heavy and maybe it has become more of a team involvement sport than it was.

I found the whole race to be terrible. Cars that obviously could go faster couldn't because of the heavy fuel load, then once the fuel loads dropped, cars could not go faster because of degrading tyres and having to save/manage the fuel to the end of the race. It was just terrible to watch really and fans, drivers and the FIA can't really be happy about this. I guarantee you that by 20100 there will be refueling, and low fuel qualy runs as well making for a prp0eore F1 race where teams "actually" become more involved with varying strategies, fast qualy and a real battles on the track.

[truefan72]

Btw i was thinking that some teams would try to run with half tanks, get their 2-3 seconds per lap advantage, pull out like 40 seconds, then come into the pits and into the garage, refuel and come back out on the track and fly to the end. Even with maybe another regular pit stop to change tires.

The way I calculated it out for Bahrain, they would loose about 60-75 seconds in the pits (with the slower fuel rigs and having to turn of the engine) but come in with a 40-45 second advantage (if not more) take a net loss of about 25-30 seconds in the pits, but go out with once again a 2-3 second per lap advantage which could see them reel in the other cars and maybe steel a top 5 position. just thinking outlandish strategy ;)

[Sonic]

It would be good if there were a greater range of tyres, so you could go very hard and try to non stop. Or softer and 1 stop or even really soft for a 2 stop race with the aim of going so fast that you can try to get past anyone looking after tyres on a longer run

Just what I would like to see.

Me 2! It would allow the drivers to be themselves - Jenson almost certainly would pick hard and few stops and Lewis would go like stink on vitual Quali rubber on a 2/3 stop. It would be awesome!

[Langdale Forest]

The refulelling ban made the race boring, and BTW Bahrain is a boring track anyway.

[steveaki13]

Me 2! It would allow the drivers to be themselves - Jenson almost certainly would pick hard and few stops and Lewis would go like stink on vitual Quali rubber on a 2/3 stop. It would be awesome!


Yep completly agree

We now just need to write the 2011 rules and all will be OK :p :

[Sonic]

Yep completly agree

We now just need to write the 2011 rules and all will be OK :p :

Perhaps if enough of us petition the FIA they'll listen! That'll be the day :D

[steveaki13]

Perhaps if enough of us petition the FIA they'll listen! That'll be the day :D


That would be a true Fantasy F1.

I emphasis the Fantasy :D

[CNR]

there was some talk a few years back about a dedicated overtaking lane
fia need to give it a try they need to do something to help in overtaking

[tinchote]

to quote from tinchote

stupid rules , stupid consequences

Indeed :D

Besides all the things that were mentioned above, I would also add the stupid "rev limiter" thing. That took a huge variable off the races, with an almost insane reliability and no power differences between cars.

[ioan]

there was some talk a few years back about a dedicated overtaking lane
fia need to give it a try they need to do something to help in overtaking

No thanks, that isn't racing anymore.

[wedge]

Really? Apart from Vettel's exhaust nothing changed.

Alonso was cutting into Vettel's lead about 2/3 distance.

Had we had refuelling Vettel would've ran off into the distance.

James Allen's solution:


http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/03/alonso-wins-show-is-criticised-but-there-is-an-answer/

My proposal would be more simple than that and would not require unanimous agreement. It is for Bridgestone to bring tyres which are closer together in performance, rather than two steps apart as at present. This was done last season and it improved things, but now they have gone back to bringing super soft and medium to the first race. Because the soft is so much faster, around 6/10ths and degrades more quickly, it will always be the qualifying tyre, which then leads to an early first pit stop for the medium, which is the better race tyre.

With tyres that are closer together, the performance difference is less and so are the wear rates and it is more attractive to try a different tactic. I’ve asked quite a few engineers tonight and they agree that it would be a step in the right direction without disadvantaging anyone.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Overtaking lanes :laugh:

[Triumph]

I must say that I was a little disappointed by today's race. It just didn't have the air of excitement I was looking forward to.

I was a bit disappointed that Michael Schumacher didn't do a bit better, but he is showing signs of improvement, so that's okay I suppose. I was a bit disappointed with the McLaren, but Lewis Hamilton seemed to make the best of it. I was also disappointed with Jenson Button's performance. I hope there are some improvements there very soon. I was also disappointed in my third choice for a win (Sebastian Vettel) when his car played up.

Well done to Fernando Alonso for his win. He's not my favourite driver, but he's damned good, so all credit to him. Good to see Felipe Massa doing well too after last year's accident.

:-)

[Saint Devote]

I found the whole race to be terrible. Cars that obviously could go faster couldn't because of the heavy fuel load, then once the fuel loads dropped, cars could not go faster because of degrading tyres and having to save/manage the fuel to the end of the race. It was just terrible to watch really and fans, drivers and the FIA can't really be happy about this. I guarantee you that by 20100 there will be refueling, and low fuel qualy runs as well making for a prp0eore F1 race where teams "actually" become more involved with varying strategies, fast qualy and a real battles on the track.

By 20100? Is that not a wee bit too long laddie! :D

I think we should wait until the after Shanghai to make final judgement. I remember how people reacted negatively after the first time Gordon Murray of Brabham back in 1983 - as I recall - introduced tyre stops and won.

I do dislike the having to use the same tyres to start the race as in qualifying - let the drivers just GO!

[truefan72]

I don't understand how people didn't see this coming, I mean it was only about 15 years ago that we last had these endurance races. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: The only way the races are going to be exciting is if Bridgestone does something with the compounds.

yes I am old enough to remember those races and said the refueling ban was ludicrous when it was first announced. I can;t recall a race in recent memory that was as dull as this race was. yeah,sector 2 is not ideal, but honestly if cars were lighter and faster, you would have seen some overtaking here. What we got will not be acceptable for the next 8 months

[truefan72]

By 20100? Is that not a wee bit too long laddie! :D

I think we should wait until the after Shanghai to make final judgement. I remember how people reacted negatively after the first time Gordon Murray of Brabham back in 1983 - as I recall - introduced tyre stops and won.

I do dislike the having to use the same tyres to start the race as in qualifying - let the drivers just GO!

sorry meant to say 2011, brain got ahead of my typing :|

[truefan72]

Am I the only one who thought this race was OK? classic? absolutely not, but i wouldnt say it was a snore fest.

some good battles throughout the field even if the car behind didnt always eventually catch the guy in front

1. in order for it to be a battle there has to be at least some jousting and none happened.

2. Not one car behind caught the car in front ( save the odd backmarkers or sutil and kubica making their way through them).
Vettel Alonso, Massa or MSC, Button, Webber following each other for long stretches of the race with a varying gap of 1-3 & 1-1.5 seconds respectively cannot be considered battles imo

[DexDexter]

The diffusers are only a part of it, and not necessarily the major part. The aerodynamicists reckon that for a given amount of downforce, under-body structures produce a quarter of the turbulence that wings produce. They'd do better to cut downforce by restricting wings. However it's done, if we want to see a lot more overtaking then they need to be cutting downforce by at least a half, probably more. Minor tweaks to diffusers or wings aren't going to do that.

The problem with cutting downforce is that they will claw it back pretty quickly so changes in aerodynamic rules are never going to be solutions that help for very long. As I said earlier, tires, tires and once more tires. My solution for the next race would be to bring the hardest tire Bridgestone has together with the softest.


Honestly I enjoyed the race very much, but because Ferrari won. Without Vettel's problems, I would probably have disappointed despite the interesting duel between the German and Alonso.

Try to look at it objectively. If 9 out of 10 people say it was boring, something has to be done. Even the teams think so.

if anyone missed the race it can be downloaded @ http://www.torrentzone.net

[ArrowsFA1]

I must say that I was a little disappointed by today's race. It just didn't have the air of excitement I was looking forward to.
Isn't that part of it? This season has been talked about as if it's going to be the greatest for years, and yet we get to Bahrain and we see what we've been watching for years.

[ShiftingGears]

For one, I think the tyre rules are poor. Bring a wide range of compounds, and let teams run on whatever the hell they want to.

The rev-limiter idea is also poor.

Refuelling was a bad idea.

As is the engine freeze. Eurgh.

[christophulus]

The refuelling ban is fine. They need to make the tyres very different in my opinion, I agree with the idea of bringing a few different compounds and letting the teams do whatever they want with them, which won't make Bridgestone very happy as it'll massively increase the cost.

We also need to get rid of some of the aero on the cars, it should be possible for a car that is actually faster to slipstream and overtake another car. I was amazed that even the McLaren with it's clever/illegal/"against the spirit of the rules" etc rear wing couldn't get anywhere near the other cars down the straight. That's the major problem, and the diffuser ban is a good step in the right direction.

[Mark]

The refuelling ban is fine. They need to make the tyres very different in my opinion, I agree with the idea of bringing a few different compounds and letting the teams do whatever they want with them, which won't make Bridgestone very happy as it'll massively increase the cost.


Agreed. I did think the race was boring!
I know they've been going the opposite way in recent times, but I think softening up the tyres will be a good way to go. Get rid of the current tyre rules and have two types of tyre available, one which will last, at most half the race and another, significantly quicker one which will last a third of the race and let teams choose which ones they want.

The idea being then that you'll have some teams two stopping and some one stopping.

[AndyRAC]

The refuelling ban is fine. They need to make the tyres very different in my opinion, I agree with the idea of bringing a few different compounds and letting the teams do whatever they want with them, which won't make Bridgestone very happy as it'll massively increase the cost.

We also need to get rid of some of the aero on the cars, it should be possible for a car that is actually faster to slipstream and overtake another car. I was amazed that even the McLaren with it's clever/illegal/"against the spirit of the rules" etc rear wing couldn't get anywhere near the other cars down the straight. That's the major problem, and the diffuser ban is a good step in the right direction.

Completely agree - allow more than 1 tyre supplier.

[Mark]

The problem with cutting downforce is that they will claw it back pretty quickly so changes in aerodynamic rules are never going to be solutions that help for very long.

This would probably never work, but what about the FIA mandating that the cars can only generate xkg of downforce at the most.

[DexDexter]

This would probably never work, but what about the FIA mandating that the cars can only generate xkg of downforce at the most.

Pretty difficult to polish. People want aerodynamic changes, but don't care to look back in history. Chassis regulations have been changed numerous times to cut downforce and increase overtaking and it has never really worked and if you think taking off the double diffuser is going to do it, you're in for a surprise. The designers are so clever that the rule makers don't really stand a chance. That's why the changes should be in things the teams cannot "control", tires. Bring two sets of tires where one is too hard and one is too soft and believe me, we'll see action.

[Bezza]

I think it is hard to judge after one race to be honest.

The Bahrain GP is notoriously crap, and a terrible place to start a season. They really shouldn't be racing there at all.

If the Australian GP is a bore, then we have problems. But I expect a much more exciting race.

Bahrain in 2004-2009 were all poor races, so by comparison - we are pretty much the same. Everyone just expected some sort of magicly fantastic race, but this will never happen until they reduce some downforce and decrease the braking potential of the cars.

I'm glad Bahrian is out of the way, and now the season can start in Melbourne as it should have done in the first place!

[curry]

My 2 cents.

1. The overtaking problem was poured in concrete when the FIA allowed the Brawn double diffuser last year and it was set in concrete when they didn't ban it for this year.

2. No one is talking about quali. This race we only saw 4 out 10 cars do two stints in Q3. I for one don't think it will be too long before we see cars not even coming out in Q3 if they don't feel they can do well. Better to sit in the pits not turn a wheel then pick your preferred tyre for the race. Another great rule decision which degrades the sport of F1!

3. To those that think refueling will be back this year, keep dreaming. To get it back in it will need the agreements of ALL the teams which just won't happen.

4. Didn't F1 bring back refueling many years ago to make the sport more interesting?

5. It was depressing to hear many drivers post race say how easy the race was on the body because they weren't pushing 100% for pretty much the whole race. :confused:

6. What happens when we have a saftey car because of a 1st corner incident. All the top teams (read top 10) on the soft tyres will come in and change to hard and then complete the race with no more stops. Geez, can't wait for that one!

7. Pray for rain!

8. Pray for more rain!

Answer: Short term, the tyres must be shockers to use, thus forcing the teams to employ strategy.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

The biggest problem is that every team ran the same strategy. If we had one trye that was quicker than the other one to the extent that a 2-stop strategy would work for some teams then it would have spiced things up. We would get the 2-stoppers catching the 1-stoppers towards the end of the race, making for a grandstand finish.

But Bahrain is a boring track and I feel almost all the drivers were very conservative in their approach. Button said he should have pushed the tyres more in the first stint.

[MAX_THRUST]

The back markers were excitng to watch, the new fuel regs stink. Keep the large tanks as madatory, but let the teams put in fuel when they want, during the race. They can run a full tank they can run half a tank. They were all slow and looking after tires, no fun, no speed no one pushing on qualifying laps like Lewis did in Monza last year, lets see people push and make mistakes.

[PitMarshal]

Whether the track contributed to the lack of overtaking I can't say, but that new middle section looks totally pointless, and made the track ridiculously long.

Bridgestone (and whoever takes over from them) should to be forced to produce at least three different compounds that are substantially different, and teams given free reign on how many they use. From what I could see there appeared to be b*gger all difference between the hard and soft compounds, except for about the first five laps on a soft set.

Mind you, my favourite option for improving the racing was suggested a while back (I forget who posted it - sorry)

1. Get rid of all the aero regs
2. Remove all technical restrictions except traction control.
3. When the teams arrive at the circuit, each car is allocated six sets of tyres and 250 litres of fuel for the entire weekend, and told to go and race.

[wedge]

I can;t recall a race in recent memory that was as dull as this race was. yeah,sector 2 is not ideal, but honestly if cars were lighter and faster, you would have seen some overtaking here.

YOu must be suffering amnesia

The European GPs @ Valencia

Last year's Singapore GP

[PitMarshal]

On a side issue, can I request that the F1 forum is moved from the 'Racing' sections, as I feel that this is being unduly optimistic?

[wedge]

Bahrain in 2004-2009 were all poor races.

2005- PDLR was driver of the day with his crazy overtaking moves

2006 - Schumi and Alonso battled hard for over 2/3 of the race

2009 - Button made up for a poor start with a stonking pass on Hamilton who had the advantage of KERS

[Daniel]

2005- PDLR was driver of the day with his crazy overtaking moves

2006 - Schumi and Alonso battled hard for over 2/3 of the race

2009 - Button made up for a poor start with a stonking pass on Hamilton who had the advantage of KERS
Yes but one pass doesn't make a race and neither does one battle.

fhxMnYlkHeI

I've never understood why in recent years some F1 fans cream themselves over 1 overtake in an otherwise boring race :mark:

[V12]

Ah, Dijon 1979.

If that happened today the FIA would have race bans for dangerous driving slapped on both Arnoux and Gilles for that. Having said that they'd both have been forced to change to a different compound of tyre at some point during the race so their afternoons may have had different trajectories from there and might not even have met on the track.

And it would all have been academic at the end as the FIA would have excluded the Renault for having a turbo and the Ferrari for having too many cylinders, and both for having Michelin tyres. Both teams would then have been ordered to turn up at the next race running the 1967-spec rev-limited Cosworth DFVs used by the rest of the field or face having their V6 and flat-12 "equalised" by the FIA.

[edv]

I think we all saw that passing is almost impossible once you get within a second or so of the car in front. Even if you're 2 seconds per lap faster.

Having a wide choice of tires with lower life expectancies will not change that fact.

Mercedes scored their points this week NOT because they had decent cars....it was because of the turbulence in their aero-wake. Don't you think Button & Webber would've passed them if not for that?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

That Dijon clip always seems like it has been overdubbed with commentary. It is almost like Murray knows what has happened because he doesn't get as excited as usual.

[ArrowsFA1]

Don't you think Button & Webber would've passed them if not for that?
Mark Webber (AussieGrit (http://twitter.com/AussieGrit)) on Twitter:

Wow! New rules, not sure huh? Why do they keep dicking with it? Followed Mercedes power for the whole race, no chance to overtake - again

[harsha]

On a side issue, can I request that the F1 forum is moved from the 'Racing' sections, as I feel that this is being unduly optimistic?

how true :(

[Mark]

That Dijon clip always seems like it has been overdubbed with commentary. It is almost like Murray knows what has happened because he doesn't get as excited as usual.

Most races in those days weren't shown live, so that would likely be accurate. Murrays commentary when live compared to pre-recorded (e.g. BTCC) was always very different.

[DexDexter]

1. Get rid of all the aero regs
2. Remove all technical restrictions except traction control.
3. When the teams arrive at the circuit, each car is allocated six sets of tyres and 250 litres of fuel for the entire weekend, and told to go and race.

1. There will a massive gap between teams and it's likely that one team will dominate from time to time which leads to borefests and lack of interest.
2. The costs will spiral out of control and there will soon be 10 cars and the differences between cars will be bigger than anybody can imagine.
3. Cars will not run in practice sessions and cars will also run out of fuel.

Sorry but that's the way it goes.

[wedge]

Yes but one pass doesn't make a race and neither does one battle.

fhxMnYlkHeI

I've never understood why in recent years some F1 fans cream themselves over 1 overtake in an otherwise boring race :mark:


Andrew Benson

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2009/09/your_classic_grand_prix.html

I was expecting France 1979 to be a hands-down winner this time because of the spectacular last three laps of racing between Ferrari legend Gilles Villeneuve and Renault's Rene Arnoux. But actually that race came last in the popular 'vote' which we use to influence - if not decide - which event to make our feature.

That is less a reflection on the famous duel, which remains as breathtaking as ever 30 years on, than it is of the fact that it is so famous. As so many of you pointed out, almost everyone who follows Formula 1 knows about Villeneuve v Arnoux at Dijon in '79 and, more to the point, has seen it already. And the rest of the race was not, it has to be admitted, that brilliant.

10min highlights:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8269874.stm



Martin Brundle wearing rose tinted specs:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8568251.stm

Most of my F1 driving career was spent with no race refuelling. Back then the cars were generally much less refined and it was easier to make an error, especially with manual gearshifts. Also the cars carried a lot more drag and slipstreaming was more effective. They were certainly far less reliable and that mixed up the results considerably.

[markabilly]

No thanks, that isn't racing anymore.
True...but neither is the current parade....

[jens]

Like briefly mentioned in another thread (how to improve show), it is amazing that FIA still thinks artificial methods improve the show. Well, if anything they distract the show, because although teams have to make compromises, they usually start making quite similar and most efficient compromises after successfully adapting to the rules.

But if everything is open to interpretation, there are more opportunities and hence harder ways of finding the most optimum strategy. Let the team decide, how many and which sets of tyres and pitstops they want to make during the race (also 0 should be possible). Hell, let the team even decide whether they actually want to refuel or not (1982 Brabham vs others) - and design a car accordingly. :p :

[e2mtt]

I think it is hard to judge after one race to be honest.

The Bahrain GP is notoriously crap, and a terrible place to start a season. They really shouldn't be racing there at all.

If the Australian GP is a bore, then we have problems. But I expect a much more exciting race.
...

Very True.

[e2mtt]

...
1. Get rid of all the aero regs
2. Remove all technical restrictions except traction control.
3. When the teams arrive at the circuit, each car is allocated six sets of tyres and 250 litres of fuel for the entire weekend, and told to go and race.
...

I disagree somewhat, how about this:

1. I say strict aero regs, that allow minimal wings, smooth bodies, and no rear difusers at all.
2. Nearly unlimited technical regs on engine & suspension, but limit exotic materials.
3. Unlimited tires, wheels, fuel changes, pitstops, etc., but require large enough tanks to complete race without refueling if desired.
4. Limit fuel consumption for the race only.

[kenny]

I said before that no refuelling will make the races boring, just like they were in the beginning of 90s and in 80s, complete processions.

So what happened today? All leaders pitted within a 3 laps for new tyres and that was it, no action on track.

BORING.i agree with u we waited 4 months 4 that rubbish.im going 2 melbourne and hope its better than that.

[Mark]

i agree with u we waited 4 months 4 that rubbish.im going 2 melbourne and hope its better than that.

Please don't use 'text speak', thanks :)

[Daniel]

Please don't use 'text speak', thanks :)
Add to that, try to capitalise words when appropriate and a little punctuation wouldn't go astray either!

[PitMarshal]

I disagree somewhat, how about this:

1. I say strict aero regs, that allow minimal wings, smooth bodies, and no rear difusers at all.
2. Nearly unlimited technical regs on engine & suspension, but limit exotic materials.
3. Unlimited tires, wheels, fuel changes, pitstops, etc., but require large enough tanks to complete race without refueling if desired.
4. Limit fuel consumption for the race only.

Welll I'm not an unreasonable man. How about:

1. Aero regs returned to 2008 spec, as I think it's generally agreed the cars last year were fugly.

2. Engines can be either 3.0l normally aspirated or 1.5l turbo. Number of cylinders is a free choice, but 'exotic' materials are banned.

3. Unlimited fuel stops and tyre choices, BUT the tyre manufacturer(s) must make available three different dry tyre compounds with significantly different grip and wear rates.

4. Limited fuel for the race, to encourage development of fuel-efficient technologies.

5. Ban on any technologies that override or take-away the drivers input (traction control, ABS, fully-automatic gerarboxes etc). Teams found in breach of this rule will be hit with an automatic 1 race ban with no right of appeal.

[K-Pu]

5. Ban on any technologies that override or take-away the drivers input (traction control, ABS, fully-automatic gerarboxes etc). Teams found in breach of this rule will be hit with an automatic 1 race ban with no right of appeal.

I like that one, but I can imagine some team getting banned because they have traction control, and then the team principal arguing that they put it "by mistake", they "didn´t know how it got there" or "we didn´t want to gain any advantage with this".

This would be quite funny indeed :D .

[ozrevhead]

I like that one, but I can imagine some team getting banned because they have traction control, and then the team principal arguing that they put it "by mistake", they "didn´t know how it got there" or "we didn´t want to gain any advantage with this".

This would be quite funny indeed :D .
alot more funnier than the joke of a season we are going to have