107%

[DazzlaF1]

With the lack of pace of the new teams and the "daft" disillusionment from some quarters (mostly Ferrari), it seems that Todt would be in favour of the 107% qualifying rule to return.

So looking at that, i thought i'd work out how far off the new teams were from the old 107% bracket compared to the fastest time set today by Nico Rosberg, and this might suprise you

Rosberg's fastest time of 1m 55.409 if you do the equation (115.409 divided by 100 and multiplied by 107) brings a 107% bracket of 2m 03.488 or 8.079 seconds away. Both the Lotuses and both Virgin cars would still comfortably make the show if that were a qualifying result.

1. Nico Rosberg - Mercedes ................ 1m 55.409
-----------------------------------------------------
19. Heikki Kovalainen - Lotus ................ 2m 00.873
20. Jarno Trulli - Lotus ................ 2m 00.990
21. Timo Glock - Virgin ................ 2m 02.037
22. Lucas di Grassi - Virgin ................ 2m 02.188
---------------- 107% LIMIT ----------------
23. Bruno Senna - Hispania ................ 2m 06.968
24. Karun Chandhok - Hispania ................ No Time

If it were on a shorter track (like for example Montreal or Interlagos) then that I think would equate to them being between 3.5 and 4.5 seconds away

[Sonic]

Glad to know I'm not the only sad geek that sat down and did the maths! As you say only HRT would miss out and if I remember the rule correctly it wasn't strictly applied - drivers could appeal and if they could show the potential to run the pace, they were in.

It does put it in perspective when you do the math, I seem to recall Damon Hill's Arrows just making the cut in Oz '97 and I don't recall anyone screaming that they should be drop kicked out of the sport because they were 4 seconds off the pace. Good job too - the amazing Hungarian GP would have been dull without Damon.

[VkmSpouge]

Fairly clear that Lotus and Virgin have reasonable running pace. I'm sure Hispania will eventually be able to get under 107% too once they have some more laps under their belt.

[Dave B]

Correct me if I'm wrong (wouldn't be the first time) but to come in this year I believe it would need agreement from ALL the teams and clearly the newbies aren't going to be turkeys voting for xmas.

For 2011 and beyond, mind, maybe 110% would be sufficient.

That said, I seem to remember the rule being waived several times when the likes of Minardi pleaded force majeur, so was it really all that effective?

[Alfa Fan]

I think the existence of a 107% rule was always more symbolic than something really used in practice. A deterrent to entering a pair of F3+ spec cars miles off the pace at the back. Marques did fall foul of it several times for Minardi in 2001 though.

I don't see the need for the rule to be reintroduced this year really as none of the entries are Lola Mastercard bad. If USF1 had actually turned up might have been a different story.

[maximilian]

To have a "franchise" system AND a 107% rule is ABSURD. If you're only gonna give out "so many" grid slots, and a team is granted that slot, then by all means, they need to be let into the RACE. Otherwise scrap the idiotic franchise system, and go back to regular qualifying, and if there are still cars out there slower than 107% BUT in the top-26... well, then let's talk.

[Sonic]

To have a "franchise" system AND a 107% rule is ABSURD. If you're only gonna give out "so many" grid slots, and a team is granted that slot, then by all means, they need to be let into the RACE. Otherwise scrap the idiotic franchise system, and go back to regular qualifying, and if there are still cars out there slower than 107% BUT in the top-26... well, then let's talk.

Now that is an excellent point. These teams have pitched their sponsorships etc on being one of only 12 (13 hopefully in 2011) teams to be on the worldwide stage that is F1 - to then put additional stipulations on that isn't fair.

HRT will be fine - hell a GP2 car would be within 110%!

[UltimateDanGTR]

To have a "franchise" system AND a 107% rule is ABSURD. If you're only gonna give out "so many" grid slots, and a team is granted that slot, then by all means, they need to be let into the RACE. Otherwise scrap the idiotic franchise system, and go back to regular qualifying, and if there are still cars out there slower than 107% BUT in the top-26... well, then let's talk.

totally agree. 107% will in my view be alot less needed with more teams. because more teams equals more teams likely to be within 107% in my view. and HRT are only out of it due to rather harsh circumstances they had within their team. Plus, any team pitching up with a dog of a car that's not even within 15 secs will never be likely to get onto the grid anyway, so the safety issue is ruled out.

Ie. the 'Open' Non francise system worked in the 80s and early 90s. I dont see why it wouldnt work today.

[christophulus]

Jean Todt still wants to introduce it, probably for next year (when it'll be completely irrelevant).


"We are very in favour of reintroducing the 107 percent limit," Todt told a news conference in Bahrain on Friday. "The reason why it was abandoned was because of the change in qualifying which was happening with fuel to start the race in the car.

Now to change that for 2010 you need to have the unanimous agreement of the teams, and to get the unanimous agreement of the teams the FIA will be supporting this solution.
"I don't think it will happen so we have to wait until 2011 to introduce it."


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82045

[Robinho]

James Allen makes some interesting points - racing at 7% + ofdf the leaders pace is not as dangerous and practicing and qualifying with thos e differences. during practice with differing fuel loads even the leading cars can be 4+ seconds apart and during qually, when all the cars are going for it with low fuel the chances of coming across a much slower car and the liklihood of tangling are arguably higher than during the race.

plus, at the moment the Virgin and Lotus are well inside 107%. i expect when Hispania attempt full speed and actualy have a proper set up on the car they'l be pretty close/inside too.

also if you start excluding cars when are they supposed to improve, given that they are allowed no testing so practice, qually and the race is the only time they'd get to run the cars and actually learn something.

give it 3 races and i think they'll all be comfortabley inside 107% anyway

[Sonic]

Jean Todt still wants to introduce it, probably for next year (when it'll be completely irrelevant).


Yup. Pointless. As has already been indicated 107% has already been achieved by two of the newbies and HRT are only 3s shy of that mark after just 20 laps.

[ioan]

Yup. Pointless. As has already been indicated 107% has already been achieved by two of the newbies and HRT are only 3s shy of that mark after just 20 laps.

There will be a new team next year too.

[Sonic]

There will indeed be a new team for 2011 but if the FIA do their ruddy job properly and select the best outfit and not just the ones willing to run cossies then there should be no requirement for a 107% rule.

[N. Jones]

To have a "franchise" system AND a 107% rule is ABSURD. If you're only gonna give out "so many" grid slots, and a team is granted that slot, then by all means, they need to be let into the RACE. Otherwise scrap the idiotic franchise system, and go back to regular qualifying, and if there are still cars out there slower than 107% BUT in the top-26... well, then let's talk.

I was thinking the same thing. If any team, especially a new one, was excluded from racing due to the 107% rule don't you think the team would not last?

That may be great for the people who do not want to see these teams in F1 but for the people who spent a great deal of time and money on the team it would be a huge set back.

It would also be a huge set back for the sport as well.

[truefan72]

To have a "franchise" system AND a 107% rule is ABSURD. If you're only gonna give out "so many" grid slots, and a team is granted that slot, then by all means, they need to be let into the RACE. Otherwise scrap the idiotic franchise system, and go back to regular qualifying, and if there are still cars out there slower than 107% BUT in the top-26... well, then let's talk.

amen

[truefan72]

James Allen makes some interesting points - racing at 7% + ofdf the leaders pace is not as dangerous and practicing and qualifying with thos e differences. during practice with differing fuel loads even the leading cars can be 4+ seconds apart and during qually, when all the cars are going for it with low fuel the chances of coming across a much slower car and the liklihood of tangling are arguably higher than during the race.

plus, at the moment the Virgin and Lotus are well inside 107%. i expect when Hispania attempt full speed and actualy have a proper set up on the car they'l be pretty close/inside too.

also if you start excluding cars when are they supposed to improve, given that they are allowed no testing so practice, qually and the race is the only time they'd get to run the cars and actually learn something.

give it 3 races and i think they'll all be comfortabley inside 107% anyway

excellent post

[steveaki13]

Am I correct in thinking the 107% rule was introduced in 1996 after the 1995 Forti's were so slow, or had it always been planned for 1996?

[AndyRAC]

To have a "franchise" system AND a 107% rule is ABSURD. If you're only gonna give out "so many" grid slots, and a team is granted that slot, then by all means, they need to be let into the RACE. Otherwise scrap the idiotic franchise system, and go back to regular qualifying, and if there are still cars out there slower than 107% BUT in the top-26... well, then let's talk.

Completely agree. I'm not in favour of the 'franchise' system - let as many join, and either have Pre-qualifying or a 107% rule.

[DazzlaF1]

Am I correct in thinking the 107% rule was introduced in 1996 after the 1995 Forti's were so slow, or had it always been planned for 1996?

Yep, not just the Forti's but also the underfunded Pacific's too, they though went bust that winter.

The Forti's were so slow, it took Roberto Moreno until the last race to manage to qualify under what would have been 107% that year, apart from that, they were between 7-9 seconds off the pace consistently, it was mainly down to the designer's decision to use drawings of what would have been the 1993 Fondmetal

[woody2goody]

Yep, not just the Forti's but also the underfunded Pacific's too, they though went bust that winter.

The Forti's were so slow, it took Roberto Moreno until the last race to manage to qualify under what would have been 107% that year, apart from that, they were between 7-9 seconds off the pace consistently, it was mainly down to the designer's decision to use drawings of what would have been the 1993 Fondmetal

To be fair to Pacific, I think they struggled after Ratzenberger's accident and never recovered really.

Another thing, this is a very long lap, and the fuel loads are very different to what they will be in Q1.

I reckon in Q1, Virgin and Lotus will be around 3s off the pace, andHispania probably 5 secs. 5 secs is not so bad when you consider the '06 Super Aguris were 4 (Sato) and 5 (Ide) seconds behind on their first appearance in Bahrain. At least Aguri had a shakedown before the first race.

The new teams all have cars which look pretty fast and well put together, it's not like the 80's and 90's where you could really tell that some teams were bad by just looking at the car.

We saw in 2008, that Force India struggled and were around 3 secs off the pace for most of the season, and they weren't strictly a new team. Even at the start of '09 they were languishing at the back for a few races.

Then we saw that all the teams bunched together anyway, so I'm sure it won't be long before there aren't any significant gaps at the back.

[UltimateDanGTR]

To be fair to Pacific, I think they struggled after Ratzenberger's accident and never recovered really.


except ofcourse, Ratzenberger drove for Simtek ;)

the last time we had more than 11 teams was 1995 (im excluding australia 97 here) and the bottom 2 teams, forti and pacific, were as said above pathetically slow really. but, F1 managed, and I think we dont need to worry about the same happening this year.

The HRT is designed by Dallara, so should be half decent when ran properly i would have thought.

[VkmSpouge]

There won't be any need to re-introduce the 107% rule, Lotus and Virgin are comfortably inside and Hispania will get inside too after a bit more track time.

[Robinho]

Senna was only 1 second off the 107% and Chandock only, what, another second behind having qualified a car that had never even turned a wheel before the session, between them they've done about 25 laps i think. they are plenty quick enough to come and play, i think they've done a great job at the last minute to get 2 cars out there and kudos to the drivers for getting some times on the board - they are only a little behind the Virgins and loti consiidering the amount of laps they've turned. the basic cars of all 3 teams are plenty quick enough to race imo.

[DazzlaF1]

Give you three guesses at who else thinks the 107% rule is a good idea

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/11234.html

He even wants to see it tightened to 105%, if that were the case, only Timo Glock would have qualified out of the 6 newbies

[steveaki13]

Give you three guesses at who else thinks the 107% rule is a good idea

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/11234.html

He even wants to see it tightened to 105%, if that were the case, only Timo Glock would have qualified out of the 6 newbies


I think todays race while not the best, was interesting from the back markers point of view.
I think the Virgin and Lotus are clearly at a fine pace, and surley will improve and I see no need to bring in 107% for them, and Hispania although further back are surely OK to race judged on todays race, and at the longest circuit in terms of lap time.

[Mark]

Bringing back the 107% is a good idea IMO. Sure most of the teams get through, and that's fine but they need to have a marker they have to get past to be allowed to race. Just because most are under the wire now it doesn't mean they will be later in the season if the other teams develop and they don't.

[Retro Formula 1]

They could bring it back but as others have said, it might be immaterial as the new teams get up to speed.

I thought that the drivers did a good job of keeping out of the way and some of the scraps at least added a bit of excitement to what was mainly a procession.

[turismo6]

I think teams will be in that 107 zone before anything is passed, What happens if you crash out in q3? or if there is a drying track?

Now that I think about it, I don't think it can work... A rubbered(is that how it's spelled?) in track should always be faster, or will the 107 time be worked out from Q3 times?

[Mark]

or will the 107 time be worked out from Q3 times?

I think that would be a reasonable approach.

[Valve Bounce]

If there is any thought of bringing back the 107%rule, then the lessor teams must be allowed more testing. But with all the high cost of teams these days, a 107% rule seems out of place to me.

[steveaki13]

I think teams will be in that 107 zone before anything is passed, What happens if you crash out in q3? or if there is a drying track?

Now that I think about it, I don't think it can work... A rubbered(is that how it's spelled?) in track should always be faster, or will the 107 time be worked out from Q3 times?

If a car spins out or there is a drying track.

Under the system pre 2003, the team can appeal to the stewards that the car has been on the pace all weekend, and provided this is the case they will be allowed to race.

A good example is Sato at the Australian GP 2002. I believe he had problems early in Qualifying when the track was dry and could only go out once the rain had started. By which time he set a time +0:22:00 seconds off the pole, but was allowed to race due to bizairre circumstances.

[DazzlaF1]

Thought this needed a re-hash because the pace of the newbies today on a moderately long track I thought was very impessive, all 3 of the teams getting comfortably within the imaginary 107% cut-off and I think its also the first time both the Hispania cars have gone within that cut-off so well done to them.

POLE TIME: 1m 34.558
107% TIME: 1m 41.177 (+ 6.619)

NEW TEAMS QUALIFYING TIMES

18th Timo Glock - Virgin ................ 1m 39.278 (+ 4.720)
19th Jarno Trulli - Lotus ................ 1m 39.399 (+ 4.841)
21st Heikki Kovalainen - Lotus ................ 1m 39.520 (+ 4.962)
22nd Lucas di Grassi - Virgin ................ 1m 39.783 (+ 5.225)
23rd Bruno Senna - Hispania ................ 1m 40.469 (+ 5.911)
24th Karun Chandhok - Hispania ................ 1m 40.578 (+ 6.020)

[UltimateDanGTR]

yes, i was impressed by the new teams today. In the first session, Glock's best time was under 3 seconds off the fastest driver's i believe. It shows the newbies are improving, and they are going to get better i think.

[ShiftingGears]

I've been quite pleased with how promptly all the backmarkers have got out of the way of cars lapping them this season. Kudos to them.

[jens]

yes, i was impressed by the new teams today. In the first session, Glock's best time was under 3 seconds off the fastest driver's i believe. It shows the newbies are improving, and they are going to get better i think.

It was actually something like 3.6-3.7s for Glock and Trulli, but most probably top teams didn't really push to the ultimate limit yet in Q1. Considering that Lotus' upgrades for Barcelona are supposed to be worth as much as 1-2 seconds, I'm looking forward to see their gap in Barcelona to P1 already starting with number 2. :) Of course everyone will bring upgrades, but I doubt established teams are going to gain such massive amount of time.

[AndyL]

I've been quite pleased with how promptly all the backmarkers have got out of the way of cars lapping them this season. Kudos to them.

I think that's what you'd call a "backhanded compliment" :)

[DazzlaF1]

It was actually something like 3.6-3.7s for Glock and Trulli, but most probably top teams didn't really push to the ultimate limit yet in Q1. Considering that Lotus' upgrades for Barcelona are supposed to be worth as much as 1-2 seconds, I'm looking forward to see their gap in Barcelona to P1 already starting with number 2. :) Of course everyone will bring upgrades, but I doubt established teams are going to gain such massive amount of time.
Well Lotus are bringing in more development parts than anyone else apart from Virgin who are practically bringing out a full B-spec of their current car accompanying the new bigger fuel tanks.

So I would not be suprised if both Lotus and Virgin are 1-2 seconds better off and starting to challenge the Toro Rosso's and the Saubers.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Well Lotus are bringing in more development parts than anyone else apart from Virgin who are practically bringing out a full B-spec of their current car accompanying the new bigger fuel tanks.

So I would not be suprised if both Lotus and Virgin are 1-2 seconds better off and starting to challenge the Toro Rosso's and the Saubers.

i really hope so. It would be great to see at least one car competitively running in the midfield.

[steveaki13]

The amount the new teams are behind now. i.e 4-6.5 seconds is now really and the level Minardi and Super Aguri run at a few years ago, so I don't think there is much of an issue anymore.

Except for Virgins crusing around at the back saving fuel from Lap 20 onwards. :p :

[maximilian]

To be fair to Pacific, I think they struggled after Ratzenberger's accident and never recovered really.

Roland Ratzenberger was driving Simtek, not Pacific.
R.I.P. Roland :(