Will SchM succeed in his comeback?

[Valve Bounce]

I ask this because several champions have previously tried comebacks but have not impressed. Perhaps they did not get into a top team, or maybe they have simply lost touch with developments in F1.

However, I do see SchM as a different personality, one who is more keen, is fit, and appears (to me anyway) to be a helluva lot more determined in every way.

Now, on the eve of his first real trial, the eyes of the F1 world are upon the all time champion. If he succeeds, there will be many here who will say :"I told you so". And if he doesn't, there will be many more who will say:"I told you so"

So what do I think? despite the fact that I never really liked the guy, my feelings are that he will kick arse. He will make some, who claim to be the the top guys in F1 look pedestrian when up against him.

The fun starts tomorrow, and we will see who is top, who is middle, and who is simply middling.

So, what do you think? ioan is exempt from voicing his thoughts - we already know what he thinks. :p :

[Koz]

I think he still has it in him... Whether Brawn/Merc does or does not will be the deciding factor.

[ShiftingGears]

I'll put it this way - his 2006 season was more impressive than the championship winning seasons from subsequent drivers, in my view.

He won't be fooling around out there.

[K-Pu]

They wouldn´t have signed him at merc if they hadn´t a clear idea of his future performance, so I think he´ll have an at least decent season for his starndards, which is already quite good. Anyway, I´ve never liked him very much, so I hope he does not have a monster season :P

[Big Ben]

I hope he'll embarrass himself but probably he won't... he's a decent driver

[christophulus]

He's still committed and enthusiastic about racing, so I can see him winning a couple of races. I don't see him being in the title fight by the end of the year though, and I think it'll be more down to the car than the driver.

[CNR]

i hope he can get 9 wins in 3 years to take it to 100 wins

[F1boat]

Best possible scenarion IMO is a season like 2003 or 2006, a fight for the championship, he may win, he may not. Worst possible - like 2005. But we'll see. I'm a bit afraid, because he is older and some of the younger drivers are quite immature, but hopefully everything will be OK.

[BDunnell]

I don't really mind whether he's successful or not. His presence back in the championship will be fascinating, however well he does — and he won't do badly, I'm sure.

[Hawkmoon]

The answer to the question will be determined by how you define success. If success is defined by a championship then it's going to be tough. If success is merely race wins then I think he'll be successful.

Another question is just how good are the guys who fought for the championships in Schumacher's abscence the last 3 seasons? The only driver on the grid who's beaten Schumi in a title fight is Alonso. Given the quality of the three Ferraris since he retired would Raikkonen, Hamilton and Button have won their championships? Button definitely because the F60 was rubbish, but the other two? Maybe, maybe not.

So this might be the toughest field he has faced since his early days but without Schumacher as a bench mark how do we really rate Massa, Hamilton, Vettel and Button?

[rayburn]

I hope he'll embarrass himself but probably he won't... he's a decent driver

That's got to be the understatement of the year - seven WDC and he's a 'decent driver'!! I don't much like the guy, but even I am forced to admit he's a little better than decent....

Whether or not he still has it in him to win another WDC is open to question, and a large part of that is whether the Merc is a championship contender or not. I await the outcome with great interest.

[Sonic]

The answer to the question will be determined by how you define success. If success is defined by a championship then it's going to be tough. If success is merely race wins then I think he'll be successful.


Almost word for word what I was going to write.

He'll certainly have a better come back than, say JV or Alan Jones who both tarnished their reputations by returning to less than front running material, but perhaps not the title success enjoyed by Prost or Lauda after their returns.

What I'm interested in seeing is how his racecraft has held up. Prost was out for a year and was rusty when he came back getting his a$$ handed to him by Senna in a weak McLaren in the early GP's, Lauda was out 2 years and took a handful of GP's to look like himself - Schu's been out double that time so its going to be interesting how he copes if he's P6 and in the pack diving into turn one.

[I am evil Homer]

Depends on what goals he's set himself on "success". Will he be competitive? Yes I think he will but i'm not sure he's got enough to win the championship (due to Ferrari and Mac steeping up their game vs Merc), however, he could decide who does by taking crucial points off them in some GPs

[wedge]

He'll win a few races I have no doubt.

Unless he's being sponsored by Age Concern I question whether he has the hunger for WDC and go wheel to wheel and not lift. Schumi is now a sitting target and the young 'uns today have a bigger appetite for glory.

[Big Ben]

I don't think MS lacks appetite. That's why I've never liked him.... I find his grotesque appetite disgusting. Nothing was too much for him to get his win. I don't think people get cured from this.

[I am evil Homer]

Another question is just how good are the guys who fought for the championships in Schumacher's abscence the last 3 seasons? The only driver on the grid who's beaten Schumi in a title fight is Alonso. Given the quality of the three Ferraris since he retired would Raikkonen, Hamilton and Button have won their championships? Button definitely because the F60 was rubbish, but the other two? Maybe, maybe not.

So this might be the toughest field he has faced since his early days but without Schumacher as a bench mark how do we really rate Massa, Hamilton, Vettel and Button?

That's as pointless as asking whether Fangio or Lauda would have beaten Schumacher...they didn't race together but that doesn't diminish what they achieved.

It's like asking if McLaren and RBR had DDD from the start whether Button would have won? It's all ifs and buts. Ultimately it's meaningless.

[ArrowsFA1]

Don't know about him succeeding or not but he knows how to make an appearance according to redbullf1spy (http://twitter.com/redbullf1spy):

Schumacher strode into the press conference, sat right in the middle, glaring, arms folded. It’s like Darth Vader's in the building…
:laugh:

[Firstgear]

Well, step number 1 in being successful for a Formula 1 driver is to beat your teammate. I believe that in the past MS usually had a clause in his contract stating that, by this measure, the team would ensure his success. Judging by the #3 on his car, it looks like he may have the same deal at Mercedes. If not, then I think he may not be successful. I think that without the team favoring MS over Massa in their last year together, Massa may have beat him. I'd put Massa at about par with Rosberg, and MS will not have gotten any better over the last few years. So it might be close, but think Rosberg will take it.
In terms of results, I predict a couple of podiums, but barring exceptional circumstances, no wins for MS. I think Mercedes might be 4th in the pecking order, behind Ferrari, Mac & Red Bull. They were already behind the development curve in the second half of last season and I don't see that changing. The days of unlimited testing are gone, taking with them one of MS's past advantages, so I think they'll be in the top end of the mid-pack.
One other thing to consider is the neck injury. It is supposed to be 100% right now, but one bump the wrong way and he could be out for a month.

[ArrowsFA1]

One other thing to consider is the neck injury. It is supposed to be 100% right now, but one bump the wrong way and he could be out for a month.
During the BBC's preview show Brundle mentioned about MS's neck and the way he was turning to look around. Maybe the neck is still an issue, or perhaps MS was being careful.

[jens]

Success will depend on machinery and considering that Mercedes seems to be slightly behind others at the moment, it looks like it will be a long shot to expect him to participate in the top fight, except a (crazy) wet race. The success of his performance will be measured against his team-mate - if MS is still as good as he was in 2006 for instance, he will probably beat Rosberg. But we will see.

[Hawkmoon]

That's as pointless as asking whether Fangio or Lauda would have beaten Schumacher...they didn't race together but that doesn't diminish what they achieved.

It's like asking if McLaren and RBR had DDD from the start whether Button would have won? It's all ifs and buts. Ultimately it's meaningless.

My comment was in response to the idea that Schumi is facing the toughest grid since his early years. Since the reputations of all but Alonso were made after Schumi's retirement then I think it's a valid question. If Schumi wipes the floor with the lot of them then their reputations are likely to suffer in the eyes of many. If they wipe the floor with him it will enhance their reputations. It's not fair but nor is it fair that many people claim Schumi only won 7 titles because Senna was killed.

I'm not trying to diminish their achievements in any way.

[CNR]

how many f1 drivers have gone motorbike racing after retiring from f1
most of the good motorbike racers have retired by the age (38)

[ioan]

Well, step number 1 in being successful for a Formula 1 driver is to beat your teammate. I believe that in the past MS usually had a clause in his contract stating that, by this measure, the team would ensure his success. Judging by the #3 on his car, it looks like he may have the same deal at Mercedes. If not, then I think he may not be successful. I think that without the team favoring MS over Massa in their last year together, Massa may have beat him. I'd put Massa at about par with Rosberg, and MS will not have gotten any better over the last few years. So it might be close, but think Rosberg will take it.

Putting Rosberg on par with Massa is already stretching it too much, the rest is just BS.

[ioan]

My comment was in response to the idea that Schumi is facing the toughest grid since his early years. Since the reputations of all but Alonso were made after Schumi's retirement then I think it's a valid question. If Schumi wipes the floor with the lot of them then their reputations are likely to suffer in the eyes of many. If they wipe the floor with him it will enhance their reputations. It's not fair but nor is it fair that many people claim Schumi only won 7 titles because Senna was killed.

I'm not trying to diminish their achievements in any way.

100% agree!

[Sonic]

Putting Rosberg on par with Massa is already stretching it too much, the rest is just BS.

As a Rosberg fan I'm eager to see how he copes with the Big Schu across the garage - it could well be the making of him.

Let's not forget, no one thought anything of Massa before '06 and he stepped up and produced the goods. I hope Nico can do the same. :)

[Rollo]

I suspect that Schumacher will exactly arrive on the point where he left off (had he still been racing).

I suspect that now although still being competitive, because Formula One requires the utter pinnacle of driving ability and talent, he will have probably dropped off to about fourth or fifth of the world's best drivers by now.

Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel are probably all better than him at this point, and maybe someone else. I honestly think that we could have as many as eight different GP winners this year, and that the fortunes of drivers and cars on the rise and slide is almost too chaotic to call.

[wedge]

Putting Rosberg on par with Massa is already stretching it too much, the rest is just BS.

Depends which Massa you want Rosberg to compare with. The one who looks erratic and out of his depth or the one who can beat Schumi on his day.

[Eunos]

All i will say is in my Personal View, The Sooner his Back in Retirement the Better...

With that said i think it will take afew Races before he really shows Pace, By than it maybe too late to make a Major Title Attack.

[Alfa Fan]

People who don't know how to use capital letters properly can hardly be expected to articulate insightful views on things can they?

[Rollo]

People who don't know how to use capital letters properly can hardly be expected to articulate insightful views on things can they?

I THINK THAT BRIAN BLESSED IS QUITE CAPABLE OF ARTICULATING HIS VIEWS WELL :D

[truefan72]

Putting Rosberg on par with Massa is already stretching it too much, the rest is just BS.

why do you insist on being rude?

I actually think that Nico is a better driver than Massa.
And Schumi will have his hands full. Nico is not one to be quiet about being undermined and he is coming from a situation where he was the clear #1. I think that they are given equal status in so far as each side of the garage will be pretty much working independently with only the necessary collaboration.
Brawn cannot hedge his bets on one driver over the other, so much like how Ferrari managed the Massa/Kimi partnership, Mercedes GP will manage the Nico/MSC team.
I do predict at least one race win for MSC this year. I have a sneaky feeling that the car is better than they are letting on.

[truefan72]

People who don't know how to use capital letters properly can hardly be expected to articulate insightful views on things can they?

I think he is using a translator so lets not hold that against him. This is not an English classroom but a forum where all opinions are welcome. No matter the grammatical errors.

[Saint Devote]

Don't know about him succeeding or not but he knows how to make an appearance according to redbullf1spy (http://twitter.com/redbullf1spy):

Schumacher strode into the press conference, sat right in the middle, glaring, arms folded. It’s like Darth Vader's in the building

:laugh:

Let me describe through analogy:
My high level commander in the battle area was Arik Sharon. When he was in the near area the word would quickly spread and even the least consciencous would increase their level of "everything" to its maximum.

Why? We understood only too well that "failure was not an option".

I think people like Schumi have that effect because that is who they are. The Mercedes [Brawn] team will be in a state of ready and action at peak level and Schumi WILL "command" them.

What they saw at the press coference was not Darth Vader - it was an announcement and a warning to all that Schumi is "prepared to die" in the same way that Mansell declared he was in trying to win the British Grand Prix - Nigel Won!!!! :D

Underestimate Schumacher at your peril because he takes no prisoners and gives no quarter.

I think we are about to witness just how tough the new generation of drivers are. A great season lies ahead and the reason is Schumacher :vader:

[slorydn1]

Let me describe through analogy:
My high level commander in the battle area was Arik Sharon. When he was in the near area the word would quickly spread and even the least consciencous would increase their level of "everything" to its maximum.

Why? We understood only too well that "failure was not an option".

I think people like Schumi have that effect because that is who they are. The Mercedes [Brawn] team will be in a state of ready and action at peak level and Schumi WILL "command" them.

What they saw at the press coference was not Darth Vader - it was an announcement and a warning to all that Schumi is "prepared to die" in the same way that Mansell declared he was in trying to win the British Grand Prix - Nigel Won!!!! :D


Underestimate Schumacher at your peril because he takes no prisoners and gives no quarter.

I think we are about to witness just how tough the new generation of drivers are. A great season lies ahead and the reason is Schumacher :vader:

I couldn't have said it better myself. I think...no in fact I KNOW Shuey will win races. I am not so sure he will win championships. I am looking forward to what could be the greatest season in F1 history.

[nigelred5]

Don't know about him succeeding or not but he knows how to make an appearance according to redbullf1spy (http://twitter.com/redbullf1spy):

:laugh:

He is a Sith Lord you know ;) Maybe they will play the Imperial March for Shummi when he wins since they won't need to play different anthems for the driver and manufacturer.

[leopard]

I think in his today's comeback, he wouldn't ask team to do anything for his favor, the contract might not stipulate this clause either, but rather he's signed by the team by dint of his valued career that may benefit team as entirety, tries to implement the best knowledge of his experience during his drive that already gave him such prolonged victories, and would be pleased that any development, strategies contributed to team produce results. Any driver emerged from the team doesn't seem to matter him. However, if the opportunity comes to him, the car can perform in accordance with his champ intuition, he would give the sport great challenges, imo.

[F1boat]

Putting Rosberg on par with Massa is already stretching it too much, the rest is just BS.

I am also not convinced by Nico yet.

[Dzeidzei]

Putting Rosberg on par with Massa is already stretching it too much, the rest is just BS.

According to Brawn Nico has been about .5 secs faster than Schumi in testing, if you equalise the variables (gas, tyres, testing program), so it´ll be interesting to see. Would be nice to see how MSc handles being slower. And how RB handles it.

Anyway, soon we´ll all be wiser.

Hanaa, Nico!

[Valve Bounce]

During the BBC's preview show Brundle mentioned about MS's neck and the way he was turning to look around. Maybe the neck is still an issue, or perhaps MS was being careful.

There are some who will argue that, more than a pain in the neck, SchM was a pain in the arse.

[Dzeidzei]

According to Brawn Nico has been about .5 secs faster than Schumi in testing, if you equalise the variables (gas, tyres, testing program), so it´ll be interesting to see. Would be nice to see how MSc handles being slower. And how RB handles it.

Anyway, soon we´ll all be wiser.

Hanaa, Nico!

Well it seems that the 0.5 secs is correct. Times in the first practise:

8. Nico Rosberg Mercedes GP + 0,616 15 laps
10. Michael Schumacher Mercedes GP + 1,079 16 laps

Thats 4,5 tenths.

[Sonic]

Well it seems that the 0.5 secs is correct. Times in the first practise:

8. Nico Rosberg Mercedes GP + 0,616 15 laps
10. Michael Schumacher Mercedes GP + 1,079 16 laps

Thats 4,5 tenths.

As thrilled as I am to see Nico out there doing the business let's not loose sight of the fact this is FP1 and the drivers were almost certainly running different programs to pool the data at the end of the session.

That said - GO NICO!

[Garry Walker]

I believe that in the past MS usually had a clause in his contract stating that, by this measure, the team would ensure his success. Judging by the #3 on his car, it looks like he may have the same deal at Mercedes. If not, then I think he may not be successful. I think that without the team favoring MS over Massa in their last year together, Massa may have beat him.

Congrats, you have failed your first lessons about F1.

[F1boat]

Last year in FP1 Rubens was in front of Jenson, Kimi in front of Felipe, Heikki in front of Lewis, Mark in front of Vettel. Let's not jump into conclusions.

[ArrowsFA1]

It doesn't matter really but I'm still wondering why MS has stuck to his Ferrari red helmet design :crazy: Given that he moved away from his original German flag design to the red to match a team that was very much his for many years, it seems odd, now he has joined Mercedes, not to revert back to the original, or at least a version of it.

[Dzeidzei]

Last year in FP1 Rubens was in front of Jenson, Kimi in front of Felipe, Heikki in front of Lewis, Mark in front of Vettel. Let's not jump into conclusions.

FP2:

Nico 1.55.409
Michael 1.55.903

Thats pretty close to 5 tenths again. Should we jump into something now?
Merc´s looking good.

[Valve Bounce]

It doesn't matter really but I'm still wondering why MS has stuck to his Ferrari red helmet design :crazy: Given that he moved away from his original German flag design to the red to match a team that was very much his for many years, it seems odd, now he has joined Mercedes, not to revert back to the original, or at least a version of it.

The Ferrari pit signals and telemetry are still connected to his helmet! :p :

[Sonic]

FP2:

Nico 1.55.409
Michael 1.55.903

Thats pretty close to 5 tenths again. Should we jump into something now?
Merc´s looking good.

I repeat my earlier statement; GO NICO!

But still too early to say - both in the GP weekend and in the season. We don't know fuel loads, tyre compounds, testing program etc.

If Nico blows schu's doors off I'll be overjoyed but I'll (and I'm sure Nico will) be keeping feet firmly on the ground until it becomes a regular situation.

[jens]

Free practices have never been a valid method in driver comparisons, so let's calm down and wait for qualifying. ;)

[F1boat]

FP2:

Nico 1.55.409
Michael 1.55.903

Thats pretty close to 5 tenths again. Should we jump into something now?
Merc´s looking good.

I'd still wait for tomorrow and Sunday, before making conclusions.

[Dzeidzei]

I'd still wait for tomorrow and Sunday, before making conclusions.

I know but this conclusion Im aching to jump to. It would be great to see that the God is mortal after all :)

[F1boat]

It would only mean that like the thunder god Thor, Michael can not beat age IMO. But I really hope that even if Nico wins qualy, Michael will beat him in the race with his experience.

[555-04Q2]

It doesn't matter really but I'm still wondering why MS has stuck to his Ferrari red helmet design :crazy: Given that he moved away from his original German flag design to the red to match a team that was very much his for many years, it seems odd, now he has joined Mercedes, not to revert back to the original, or at least a version of it.

He's probably an undercover Ferrari spy :p :

[555-04Q2]

With regards to the Nico vs Michael debate:

How many times have we seen Rosberg at the front of free practice and quali only for him to finish at the bottom end of the points positions :?:

Gonna be interseting to see how Michael competes against young Rosberg this season. Nico is fast but has proven to be inconsistent during races.

I haven't been this pumped up for an F1 season in a looooong time!!!

[wedge]

quali only for him to finish at the bottom end of the points positions :?:

Topping FP was a joke but he arguably out-drove the car/drove solidly because he got solid points last year.

Unproven in that he has never had a good team because he's a better driver than he was in 2006.

[Sonic]

Nico is fast but has proven to be inconsistent during races.

*SUPER NICO FAN TO THE RESCUE!*

Ok, gonna have to pull you up on that one. Nico had 8 consecutive points finishes last year, only one driver did better - Jenson Button.

If that's not consistent then I don't know what is!

The main frustration with Nico is that sometimes (from nowhere usually) he pops up with fastest lap of the race when he's been mid points and you're like - well where'd that come from. Hopefully in a WCC team that can become a thing of the past.

Up to now Nico's real potential has now been hidden by the car and this year I hope he breaks his duck.

[jens]

Actually that argument of inconsistency during races has some merit. He was in podium position in Australia, but dropped to 6th (OK, he had soft tyres in the end, but arguably destroyed them more with his driving than should have); was leading in Malaysia, but dropped to 8th with rain; dropped to 8th in Spain, while Williams was expecting P5. Then again Nico had a string of very strong drives in mid-season, when there were no signs of inconsistency.

We know that Rosberg has the ability to be very fast. It was evident already from his very first F1 race. But the big question is whether he can put together a consistent highly-competitive season.

[ioan]

Let's not forget, no one thought anything of Massa before '06 ...

So why did Ferrari hire him and not someone else?

Massa was always a very fast driver he only needed to improve his consistency.
Rosberg IMO is neither fast nor consistent enough to get some special results without lucking into a largely superior car like Button did.

[ioan]

Last year in FP1 Rubens was in front of Jenson, Kimi in front of Felipe, Heikki in front of Lewis, Mark in front of Vettel. Let's not jump into conclusions.

Wise words. :up:

[ioan]

It would be great to see that the God is mortal after all :)

He is mortal and his fans always knew this. Only the fans of his competitors are making him a god in order to cheer their favorites as Gods on the rare occasions when they managed to topple him. ;)

[jens]

So why did Ferrari hire him and not someone else?

Massa was always a very fast driver he only needed to improve his consistency.
Rosberg IMO is neither fast nor consistent enough to get some special results without lucking into a largely superior car like Button did.

In the same way you may ask: "So why did Ross Brawn hire Nico and not someone else?" Double standards in comparing Massa and Rosberg. ;) Actually Massa's reputation pre-06 was lower than Rosberg's now.

[Sonic]

So why did Ferrari hire him and not someone else?

Massa was always a very fast driver he only needed to improve his consistency.
Rosberg IMO is neither fast nor consistent enough to get some special results without lucking into a largely superior car like Button did.

I cannot speak for Ferrari, but I would guess there weren't too many candidates willing to be second fiddle to Schu.

Funny you mention Nico and Button in the same breath - I'm hoping to be as smug and self satisfied as St.D come the end of the year! ;) LOL.

[ioan]

In the same way you may ask: "So why did Ross Brawn hire Nico and not someone else?" Double standards in comparing Massa and Rosberg. ;) Actually Massa's reputation pre-06 was lower than Rosberg's now.

Actually Massa had beaten Villeneuve in equal cars not Nakajima, before he got into the Ferrari, so I fail to see how his reputation was worse than that of Rosberg who up to now showed little but his fathers name and a couple of good races in 4 years.
Take last year for example when he drove one of the 6 DDDifusser designed cars and was pretty much anonymous.

[ioan]

I cannot speak for Ferrari, but I would guess there weren't too many candidates willing to be second fiddle to Schu.

You are right only 50% of the grid would have jumped to the chance of driving for the team who had won 5 consecutive constructors championships, no matter if in the other seat was MS, FA or Prost in his glory years. Still Ferrari chose the guy who went on to dominate Raikkonen in 2 seasons out of 3 together, strange. :p

[ioan]

In the same way you may ask: "So why did Ross Brawn hire Nico and not someone else?" Double standards in comparing Massa and Rosberg. ;) Actually Massa's reputation pre-06 was lower than Rosberg's now.

Because Mercedes wanted German drivers, Heidfeld was looking to get into McLaren and MS kept them waiting with his decision.
TBH I would have taken Sutil over Rosberg, but probably the Rosberg name is much more marketable for Mercedes than Sutil.

[jens]

Actually Massa had beaten Villeneuve in equal cars not Nakajima, before he got into the Ferrari, so I fail to see how his reputation was worse than that of Rosberg who up to now showed little but his fathers name and a couple of good races in 4 years.


Well, when Massa's move to Ferrari was announced, many people were surprised and it was said that "he was hired only because his manager is Todt Jr". When Rosberg was hired by Mercedes, no-one was really surprised. Massa beat Villeneuve, but nobody made a big deal of it, because everyone considered JV to be well past his prime. Massa was still viewed as the same driver, who had been beaten by Heidfeld and Fisichella in previous seasons. Massa rarely appeared in the list of Top10 drivers in 2005.

[ioan]

Well, when Massa's move to Ferrari was announced, many people were surprised and it was said that "he was hired only because his manager is Todt Jr".

Just goes to show how people prefer stupid conspiracy theories instead of making use of their brains.


When Rosberg was hired by Mercedes, no-one was really surprised. Massa beat Villeneuve, but nobody made a big deal of it, because everyone considered JV to be well past his prime. Massa was still viewed as the same driver, who had been beaten by Heidfeld and Fisichella in previous seasons. Massa rarely appeared in the list of Top10 drivers in 2005.

And still he went on to become a championship challenger to the uber hyped Hamilton and only lost by one point. Which again only points to what I said above.

[Valve Bounce]

I think that, because of his vast experience, SchM will be able to be more cool under close racing conditions. I feel that it will be all about saving tyres as well as going fast. I predict SchM for the podium.

[F1boat]

Because Mercedes wanted German drivers, Heidfeld was looking to get into McLaren and MS kept them waiting with his decision.
TBH I would have taken Sutil over Rosberg, but probably the Rosberg name is much more marketable for Mercedes than Sutil.

Well, I am not that critical of Nico. In my opinion he is the third best German driver on the grid, after Michael and Vettel. He is fast, maybe not amazing, but fast and, from what we saw last season, consistent. He also seems to be able to improve, which is a very important characteristic of a driver and one in which he is not dissimilar to Felipe Massa himself. Nick Heidfeld for example I think has reached his peak and can only go down. IMO he won't return in F1 if Michael is OK with his neck and his fitness. Sutil can be very fast, but is also crashaholic and in the one race in which FI had a great car last year, Fisichella owned him badly. So I think that Nico was a sound choice, although if I was sure with Michael driving I would have picked a solid number two driver like Heidfeld or Ralf Schumacher. But as MGP was likely not sure that Michael is coming back, Nico was a very good choice.

[F1boat]

I think that, because of his vast experience, SchM will be able to be more cool under close racing conditions. I feel that it will be all about saving tyres as well as going fast. I predict SchM for the podium.

Yes, I think that he may disappoint today, but will strike back tomorrow. I am very interested to see his battle with the Ferrari drivers and Button, who may be in similar position, and the Red Bulls and Lewis, who might shine today and disappoint tomorrow. I am not sure what will happen with Nico, though.

[Valve Bounce]

Yes, I think that he may disappoint today, but will strike back tomorrow. I am very interested to see his battle with the Ferrari drivers and Button, who may be in similar position, and the Red Bulls and Lewis, who might shine today and disappoint tomorrow. I am not sure what will happen with Nico, though.

Maybe there won't be a battle; he may just play a Prost type race game and come in for the kill when they all bugger up their cars or their tyres.

[ioan]

Just watching the live practise and they mentioned that Schuey has admitted he needs to raise his game as he was 0.5 seconds off Nico's pace. "Maybe I am a little rusty, and I need to raise my game".. Alot has changed since he last raced and the cars are vastly different. The cars are longer, and have narrower front wheels etc. I'm sure he'll find his groove, but it seems at the minute that Nico is finding the car alot easier to handle and is faster on merit. Go Nico... :)

MS is 0.5 seconds of the pace but to be fair to him when Hakkinen came back after a few years he was 4-5 seconds off the pace.

[Garry Walker]

Because Mercedes wanted German drivers, Heidfeld was looking to get into McLaren and MS kept them waiting with his decision.
TBH I would have taken Sutil over Rosberg, but probably the Rosberg name is much more marketable for Mercedes than Sutil.

What has Sutil ever done? got beaten by his teammates like old fisi? He is nothing special. I dont consider rosberg as one of the top pilots overall, but he is by far better than Sutil.


MS is 0.5 seconds of the pace but to be fair to him when Hakkinen came back after a few years he was 4-5 seconds off the pace.

Well, to be fair to him, they said afterwards that he was not really going for times at all and was on heavy fuel and the same tyres all day long.

[F1boat]

The gap to Nico is narrower in FP3. In the end, I won't be surprised if Michael beats him in qualy.

[Valve Bounce]

Oh yeah its to be expected, I think in most aspects the hype has built his comeback up and people expect him to start where he left off.

As I said he's been out of the cockpit for 3 years and it'll take time to adjust to racing once more. He is in a fortunate position where all the drivers are adjusting to vastly different cars, so he's not too far behind. :)

For goodness sake - SchM is right up there among the faster runners. What are you talking about?

All Massa ever had was doubters as he'd not got near proving himself up until the end of 2005. Thats just my opinion.. :)

And one not shared by Jean Todt, Ross Brawn or Michael Schumacher. The 2003 season Massa had as Ferrari test driver had already revealed the talent that was yet to be refined.

Still, what do they know compared to you?

Every response lately seems to be negative, why is this?

Probably something to do with the quality of your posts.

Well put me on ignore then and stop leaving provocative one liners. You are a troll you really are, you've effectively picked something out of my post simply to derail the thread.

I'm not the only person to have doubted Massa in this thread so why quote me and not the previous posters??? I admitted I was wrong, yet you still feel the need to ridicule.. Grow up ffs.. :mad:

If you don't like it, leave.

[Sonic]

Probably something to do with the quality of your posts.

Not that I want to start a war here, but........

Henners did quantify his remarks by adding the phrase "IMO". Everyone's entitled to one, hence why we're on a forum in the first place.

Peace and love :)

Not that I want to start a war here, but........

Henners did quantify his remarks by adding the phrase "IMO". Everyone's entitled to one, hence why we're on a forum in the first place.


Yes, he did, and indeed everyone is entitled to an opinion.

But those opinions are also subject to debate and subject to analysis and criticism..... and he seems to get very upset when people point out the abundant flaws in his opinions, not to mention the lack of facts (a particular speciality of his).

Therefore, be it an opinion or a comment, until the quality of what he posts improves he can only expect criticism.

However, I think we can safely say he won't improve and he'll just cry "troll" whenever anybody highlights the inaccuracies and inadequacies of his musings.



Peace and love :)

Bloody Hippy!

[EuroTroll]

Let's get back on topic, eh. ;)

About half a sec slower than Rosberg in practice, only 0.3 sec in qualy. To me that's an indication that the come-back will be successful. I think he'll match Nico no later than in China. And then...

[Mia 01]

It will be tough for him. I wonder what another driver in that seat could have done with the car.

Nico is beating him with a margin. The tense in the team will soon get immense.

Let's get back on topic, eh. ;)

About half a sec slower than Rosberg in practice, only 0.3 sec in qualy. To me that's an indication that the come-back will be successful. I think he'll match Nico no later than in China. And then...

Quite.

As I recall, he was outqualified on his Ferrari debut too....a clear indicator of things to come that turned out to be.

The info I heard (on the BBC practice commentary) was that the Mercedes is prone to understeer, which is not how Schumi has liked his cars to be and that it suits Rosberg's style more.

Once that is dialled out/cured/car-totally-changed-by-evil-forces-intent-on-not-giving-Nico-a-fair-chance (Delete according to degree of lunacy), then 3/10ths isn't that big a gap at all to bridge.

Plus, it is only qualifying. 49 laps await us tomorrow.

3 2 United Kingdom Eddie Irvine Ferrari 1:32.889 +0.518
4 1 Germany Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:33.125 +0.754

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Australian_Grand_Prix

Blimey, Nico is as good as Eddie Irvine.

[ioan]

It will be tough for him. I wonder what another driver in that seat could have done with the car.

Nico is beating him with a margin. The tense in the team will soon get immense.

What a load of rubbish.
Just take a look to the margin that Vettel, Massa and Hamilton got over their team mates, it's much more than what Rosberg managed over a 15+ years older MS, still the detractors are only pointing to MS being slow.

[ioan]

Quite.

As I recall, he was outqualified on his Ferrari debut too....a clear indicator of things to come that turned out to be.

The info I heard (on the BBC practice commentary) was that the Mercedes is prone to understeer, which is not how Schumi has liked his cars to be and that it suits Rosberg's style more.

Once that is dialled out/cured/car-totally-changed-by-evil-forces-intent-on-not-giving-Nico-a-fair-chance (Delete according to degree of lunacy), then 3/10ths isn't that big a gap at all to bridge.

Plus, it is only qualifying. 49 laps await us tomorrow.

Exactly.

[Sonic]

Tamb! LOL :D I was just about to post that 1996 data too.

Schuey has been beaten, and whilst as a Nico fan I'm thrilled, I have to expect this situation will not continue.

I pedicted on another thread than MS would win at Malaysia, and whilst that seems unlikely with the pace of the car atm it could be that race that he starts to feel at home again.

[Mia 01]

What a load of rubbish.
Just take a look to the margin that Vettel, Massa and Hamilton got over their team mates, it's much more than what Rosberg managed over a 15+ years older MS, still the detractors are only pointing to MS being slow.

I didn´t say that MS is slow. But it seems as Nico is a bit faster, anytime!

[ioan]

I didn´t say that MS is slow. But it seems as Nico is a bit faster, anytime!

You implied that he is slow:


It will be tough for him. I wonder what another driver in that seat could have done with the car.

Nico is beating him with a margin. The tense in the team will soon get immense.

[Dzeidzei]

What a load of rubbish.
Just take a look to the margin that Vettel, Massa and Hamilton got over their team mates, it's much more than what Rosberg managed over a 15+ years older MS, still the detractors are only pointing to MS being slow.

Just a simple question, Ioan:

did you honestly even consider that Nico would be faster?

I think he´s up for a rough ride and simply because he doesn´t have that 4-days-of-testing in Fiorano every week.

And thats not taking anything from him. He is and will forever be the most successful f1 driver.

[F1boat]

For me the problem is not Nico, unless he is rusty as the old Transformer in the 2nd movie he will school him sooner or later. But the car seems to be much slower and usually the top 2 teams in the beginning of the season fight for the championship. And the top 2 are Red Bull and Ferrari. So to the casual fans he will fail, even if he beats Nico and the McLarens.

[ioan]

Just a simple question, Ioan:

did you honestly even consider that Nico would be faster?

Honestly I didn't even bother to think about this. But apparently others did a lot and now they are venting the frustrations they accumulated against MS in his previous 17 years stint.

[gloomyDAY]

Mike's going to be just fine.

He's only 0.3 seconds off of Rosberg's pace.

Rosberg VS Mike 0.30
Massa VS Alonso 0.35
Hamilton VS Button 0.40
Vettel VS Webber 1.10

[Valve Bounce]

Tamb! LOL :D I was just about to post that 1996 data too.

Schuey has been beaten, and whilst as a Nico fan I'm thrilled, I have to expect this situation will not continue.

I pedicted on another thread than MS would win at Malaysia, and whilst that seems unlikely with the pace of the car atm it could be that race that he starts to feel at home again.

Never cross your chickens before you count your bridges.

[Valve Bounce]

Just a simple question, Ioan:

did you honestly even consider that Nico would be faster?

I think he´s up for a rough ride and simply because he doesn´t have that 4-days-of-testing in Fiorano every week.

And thats not taking anything from him. He is and will forever be the most successful f1 driver.

Nico has been known to qualify very fast in some races previously. How many races has he won? Qualifying is very important, I agree. But this year, when tyre wear dictates the pitstops, then other factors will come into play. Let's wait and see what happens tonight (my time).

[Garry Walker]

Well, pretty much as I expected.
In qualy Rosberg has a clear advantage, but come race time, MS is just on his pace.
Come Melbourne I dont think that will change, but in a few race time the tables will turn.

[F1boat]

Still, well done for Nico to finish ahead of Michael, Jenson and Webber. But Michael was pretty decent as well!

[EuroTroll]

Still, well done for Nico to finish ahead of Michael, Jenson and Webber. But Michael was pretty decent as well!

Yeah, an entirely decent opener. We'll hear more from this young man soon! :)

[F1boat]

Yeah, an entirely decent opener. We'll hear more from this young man soon! :)

If the car improves. As Garry Walker pointed, the fully working Mercedes is behind a damaged Red Bull and from what I saw, behind McLaren-Mercedes as well. So 4th best team. This is far from ideal.

[ioan]

Well, pretty much as I expected.
In qualy Rosberg has a clear advantage, but come race time, MS is just on his pace.
Come Melbourne I dont think that will change, but in a few race time the tables will turn.

Exactly 5 seconds over 50 laps it's only 0.1 seconds a lap in race pace on a 2 minutes long lap.

MS will be only getting better whereas Rosberg never proved that he can up his game against a strong team mate.

[ratonmacias]

the chin´s ass is grass and nico is the mower. by midseason there will be some neck issues.

[ArrowsFA1]

Seemed to be quite an uneventful race for MS. I'm sure he'll get more into the swing of things after a few races, but can Mercedes provide him with a winning car?

[Mia 01]

A decent wekeend for MS, nothing moore.

It will take a couple of races for him to cope with it again.

[truefan72]

A decent wekeend for MS, nothing moore.

It will take a couple of races for him to cope with it again.

yep

[Valve Bounce]

the chin´s ass is grass and nico is the mower. by midseason there will be some neck issues.

Ratman, I'm going to quote this for my sig. :p :

[Big Ben]

So he's human after all, isn't he? Keep up the good work Rosberg! He looked pretty hopeless to me without the best car on the grid and a team mate hired to make him look good. However I feel generous today, I still think he's a decent driver.

[leopard]

Having said that even he had to finish behind his teammate, it doesn't seem to matter him. After three years absent from racing, yesterday's result was quite good to make him happy, finished in front of reigning champion. The young Schuey was clever driver, had high consistency, put up every effort to make a cut and be winner. He may need couple races to cope with the race he can adapt to signify more the existence of his comeback.

[Dzeidzei]

Having said that even he had to finish behind his teammate, it doesn't seem to matter him. After three years absent from racing, yesterday's result was quite good to make him happy, finished in front of reigning champion. The young Schuey was clever driver, had high consistency, put up every effort to make a cut and be winner. He may need couple races to cope with the race he can adapt to signify more the existence of his comeback.

To be fair, Michael was fine yesterday. But with these new regs he and RB will have a lot less room for clever tactics. It´ll be more about the real speed and my prediction is he wont be faster than Nico. He should be able to qualify in front of Nico and that will be hard.

All in all, a good race for the senior citizen.

[Retro Formula 1]

Schumacher slotted in quite well I thought. He was competitive and just got beat by a better drive from Nico. To be fair, people are unrealistic if they think Schumacher is some sort of super hero that is going to be able to make miracles happen. Winning races at this stage of his career may be a bit too far unless he has the best car and a slice of luck. Personally, I think he has more than his hands full with young Rosberg.

[Valve Bounce]

Schumacher slotted in quite well I thought. He was competitive and just got beat by a better drive from Nico. To be fair, people are unrealistic if they think Schumacher is some sort of super hero that is going to be able to make miracles happen. Winning races at this stage of his career may be a bit too far unless he has the best car and a slice of luck. Personally, I think he has more than his hands full with young Rosberg.

Hi, welcome to our forum.

I think you are wrong here. I never liked the guy, but after Bahrain, I do expect SchM to be at the front when the car goes well. I think he did end up ahead of last year's WDC.

[Retro Formula 1]

Thanks.

You might be right but I think if Nico gets a fair shot, he may surprise a few people. He may not be a Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso but is a good peddler all the same.

As for Button, he did about as well as expected. Where Michael and Nico will be about the same, I expect Hamilton to be consistently ahead of Jenson.

[Valve Bounce]

Thanks.

You might be right but I think if Nico gets a fair shot, he may surprise a few people. He may not be a Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso but is a good peddler all the same.

As for Button, he did about as well as expected. Where Michael and Nico will be about the same, I expect Hamilton to be consistently ahead of Jenson.

Never underestimate SchM. :eek:

[Volky34]

Hi people, I'm not new to this forum as I've been following it for years.. This is my first post, though.. There are 3 factors in Schumi deciding on his comeback, I think..

- He was so close to get his 8th crown in 06, he was utterly frustrated to retire without it.

- He knew he would be the world champion in 07 and 08 as he thinks he would do a better job than Kimi and Massa respectively( Though no one can be 100% sure about that)

- He also knows he could do a better job in the same car than Jenson and Rubens in 09. This would make him the champion in 09, as well :)



I think he did an incredibly good job in Bahrein. To be so close to Rosberg's race pace "after three years absence" is unbelievable. From now onwards he can only close the gap..

I reckon he would be third "between Massa and Hamilton" in a third Ferrari yesterday....

[aryan]

Lets also not forget that this track is a bit of a Nico speciality. Didn't he post the fastest time on his debut GP here in 2006?

[jens]

Rosberg may have posted FL in 2006, but since then Bahrain has hardly been his speciality - 10th in 2007 in a car, which was capable of points; 8th in 2008 and 9th in 2009. Going by history, Nico may actually be more impressive at Sepang. 3rd on the grid in 2006, 6th in 2007 before the engine failure, was leading the race last year.

[ratonmacias]

Rosberg is quite underrated because he wasnt on a team with a big pr machine and he isnt british. my guess is he will outpace the chin. as for those who think the chin is still good because he beat boyband just remember boyband never had it. he became a wdc because brawn built a hell of a car last year.

[F1boat]

Rosberg is quite underrated because he wasnt on a team with a big pr machine and he isnt british. my guess is he will outpace the chin. as for those who think the chin is still good because he beat boyband just remember boyband never had it. he became a wdc because brawn built a hell of a car last year.

so if, and it's a big if, Nico wins anything, it will not be because he is in the factory-supported Brawn? It works both ways, you know.

[jens]

Anyway, the bad thing for Nico is what has been suspected - even if he beats Michael on his day, it will be said that it's only because MS is "too old or hasn't adapted to the car".

[ratonmacias]

so if, and it's a big if, Nico wins anything, it will not be because he is in the factory-supported Brawn? It works both ways, you know.

how is the brawn that won the first 6 races in a row last year and this years mercedes that didnt even get to the podium relate?

[F1boat]

how is the brawn that won the first 6 races in a row last year and this years mercedes that didnt even get to the podium relate?

Yes, and "boyband" delivered. Let's see whether Britney will.

[Valve Bounce]

Rosberg is quite underrated because he wasnt on a team with a big pr machine and he isnt british. my guess is he will outpace the chin. as for those who think the chin is still good because he beat boyband just remember boyband never had it. he became a wdc because brawn built a hell of a car last year.

Listen up, Ratman, you're overstating the success Rosberg had over SchM in the latter's first race for several years. At Bahrain, fighting for positions is just not feasible with the heat and having to preserve tyres, and the old git was trying to get his rythm back. Just wait till Albert Park and the mower might work the other way around.

[ratonmacias]

Listen up, Ratman, you're overstating the success Rosberg had over SchM in the latter's first race for several years. At Bahrain, fighting for positions is just not feasible with the heat and having to preserve tyres, and the old git was trying to get his rythm back. Just wait till Albert Park and the mower might work the other way around.

maybe i am hopefully i'm not. lol. i just dont like the chin and i would love to see that nico has equal footing within the team (hopefully jock clear is on rosbergs side) as i have never rated the chin not because he is a bad driver but because he always ran away from worthy competitors on the same car he had

[Mia 01]

MS will naturally be better with each race under his belt, but it´s doesn´t matter now.

With this regulation there is no way for him to show his skills!

[Valve Bounce]

MS will naturally be better with each race under his belt, but it´s doesn´t matter now.

With this regulation there is no way for him to show his skills!

Australia will be different ( more temperate conditions) , and once the drivers figure out the implications of pushing vs tyre wear/damage, we will see more action up front. Don't forget, SchM finished in front of last year's WDC in his first race after three years on the sidelines.

[ratonmacias]

hey boyband is not a reference here. where did crane boy end up driving the same car than boyband? yes thats right on the box. so boyband didnt actually set the world on fire in that mclaren cheater wing or not.

[SGWilko]

hey boyband is not a reference here. where did crane boy end up driving the same car than boyband? yes thats right on the box. so boyband didnt actually set the world on fire in that mclaren cheater wing or not.

Am I likely to need an Enigma machine to decode just WTF you are going on about here?

[pino]

hey boyband is not a reference here. where did crane boy end up driving the same car than boyband? yes thats right on the box. so boyband didnt actually set the world on fire in that mclaren cheater wing or not.

The chin, boyband, crane boy... :confused: could you please use names so anyone can understand what you are talking about. Thanks !

[ratonmacias]

ok ill type slowly

the chin = Schumacher
boy band = Button
crane boy= Hamilton

theres the enigma machine you needed lol.

[F1boat]

ok ill type slowly

the chin = Schumacher
boy band = Button
crane boy= Hamilton

theres the enigma machine you needed lol.

Don't miss - Britney=Nico Rosberg.

[ioan]

Don't miss - Britney=Nico Rosberg.

I prefer to call him Barbie.

[Sonic]

I prefer to call him Barbie.

Does that make Schumacher Ken? :p :

[ioan]

Does that make Schumacher Ken? :p :

I am not well enough informed about their arrangements, you will have to ask them. ;)

[Sonic]

http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/ba/barbie-i-can-be-doll--race-car-driver.jpg

:D

[truefan72]

MSC will improve from race to race.

Even he needs time to adapt to the car and team. Yes Brawn helps but this time around there is not an entire staff of 300 people and unlimited funds making sure that he gets everything he wants and his teammate is not being asked to acquiesce to him either. This is probably the first time in his entire career where all the attention and resources and car are not designed around him so adjustments will have to be made.

All things considered a 6th place is awfully good taking note that he was behind 2 ferrari's a mclaren, the fastest car on the grid RBR and his teammate more acclimated to the car. I'm no MSC fan but I won't minimize his efforts so far. I'm happy he is back, more competition (if/when the races become interesting) and more excitement.

Plus I never liked the way he left Ferrari. He probably would have driven for 3 more years and retired on his terms now.

[Retro Formula 1]

Is it always like this on here? I tried transposing the enigma code and still cant understand except that McLaren cheated somehow? I just haven't figured out the 'how' bit yet....

[Valve Bounce]

Is it always like this on here? I tried transposing the enigma code and still cant understand except that McLaren cheated somehow? I just haven't figured out the 'how' bit yet....
Yeah!! that's what Mark Webber was looking for also. (see caption this thread).

[ratonmacias]

Is it always like this on here? I tried transposing the enigma code and still cant understand except that McLaren cheated somehow? I just haven't figured out the 'how' bit yet....

so that you can catch up quickly and benchrace with us.

the schumi lovers say he did great although nico beat him because he beat button who is the current wdc. i say button was an anomaly and is no where near as good as the last 4 wdc winners schumacher alonso raikkonen and hamilton.

and this race we saw button in 7th and lewis 3rd so it is starting to show button must be slower than hamilton.

so dont compare schumi with button as it wont take schumi anywhere. i expect schumi to beat button 9 times out of 10

and about mclaren cheating some say the wing that can be stalled with the drivers leg by covering a hole on the snorkel right in front of the cockpit is illegal although the fia say it ok.

[Retro Formula 1]

I see what you are talking about new.

Personally, I expect Lewis to dominate Jenson for the first half of the season but gradually close the gap.

I do struggle with criticising Button because Schumacher beat him in a different car. That's like saying Schumacher is crap because he is in a car Button won the championship in and cannot even beat Vettel in a broken Red Bull. These sort of comparisons are nonsensical and pure opinion and speculation.

Regarding the wing, McLaren have been a little cheeky but as the FIA say, they cannot see how a drivers leg can be classed as a moveable aero device although I understand this might be tightened up. It's a grey area like a drivers helmet.

[ioan]

his is probably the first time in his entire career where all the attention and resources and car are not designed around him so adjustments will have to be made.e probably would have driven for 3 more years and retired on his terms now.

Because at the beginning of his F1 career he didn't have to fight one to one against a WDC team mate?
Guys try at least say something realistic when talking about him.

[ioan]

so that you can catch up quickly and benchrace with us.

the schumi lovers say he did great although nico beat him because he beat button who is the current wdc. i say button was an anomaly and is no where near as good as the last 4 wdc winners schumacher alonso raikkonen and hamilton.

and this race we saw button in 7th and lewis 3rd so it is starting to show button must be slower than hamilton.

so dont compare schumi with button as it wont take schumi anywhere. i expect schumi to beat button 9 times out of 10

and about mclaren cheating some say the wing that can be stalled with the drivers leg by covering a hole on the snorkel right in front of the cockpit is illegal although the fia say it ok.

Little maths lesson for you:

Rosberg finished some 5 seconds in front of MS after 50 laps, so he was only 0.1 seconds a lap faster than a guy 17 years older than him who didn't race for 3 years and you want us to believe that MS didn't do great?

[ioan]

http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/ba/barbie-i-can-be-doll--race-car-driver.jpg

:D

LOL

[airshifter]

Little maths lesson for you:

Rosberg finished some 5 seconds in front of MS after 50 laps, so he was only 0.1 seconds a lap faster than a guy 17 years older than him who didn't race for 3 years and you want us to believe that MS didn't do great?

What's 17 years of age and a 3 year break? These cars almost drive themselves, so that shouldn't even be a consideration! :laugh:


Personally I'm not really sure MS can make a comeback that shows him 100% as strong as he has been in the past. But even if he comes back to 90% of the driver he used to be, his competition should be very, very worried.

I think if anyone is capable of it, he is the one.

[Sonic]

Let's talk about Nico. :)

Schu has performed well in his comeback but I think (biased maybe) that Nico has performed very well - not just on the track, but the way he has composed himself since he found out who he was facing across the garage. No b!tching about having a 7 times WDC as a team mate, just hard work and dedicating himself to learning as much as he can from the master in regards to work ethic etc.

Schu will get better, probably soon, and Nico will have his hands full but I think the season could be the making of Rosberg. Fingers crossed :)

[Sonic]

I'd say Piquet was in the prime of his career in 1991.. :p
Only joking, Schuey did have to compete against a triple WDC in his first season so nobody can take that away from him.. :)

I'd say his first two team mates were not there to back him up, he just plain beat them. PK, a tripple WDC, and Riccardo in '93 - a championship runner up and race winner.

Jos the Boss was the first driver as a designated number 2.

[F1boat]

Hopefully Michael now won't be like Nelson snr. before...

[Valve Bounce]

I don't think SchM will try to kick anyone for running off the track. :eek: :D

[Sonic]

I don't think SchM will try to kick anyone for running off the track. :eek: :D

Could be fun tho....

Who would win in a kickfight between MS and Chandock? :D

[K-Pu]

Could be fun tho....

Who would win in a kickfight between MS and Chandock? :D

Chandokan, of course. How dare you doubt it?

[truefan72]

Because at the beginning of his F1 career he didn't have to fight one to one against a WDC team mate?
Guys try at least say something realistic when talking about him.

ioan lets not get a thing called reality get in the way of your embellishment.

In 1991 MSC replaced Moreno for the last 5 GP's of the year driving alongside a 39 year old nelson Piquet 4+ years removed from his WDC in his last few races for the team knowing full well that he will be retiring from F1 ( as well as a contract squabble).

I hardly consider that as "a fight going one-on-one" with Nelson P. Because there really was no fight. They had 3 complete races together. one where his engine went halfway through the GP and the final race where he did not make it past 5 laps.

in 1992 the team was his. He was the clear #1, Flav was running things and he never had to worry about competition from his teammate for essentially his entire career.

[truefan72]

I'd say Piquet was in the prime of his career in 1991.. :p
Only joking, Schuey did have to compete against a triple WDC in his first season so nobody can take that away from him.. :)

see above post

1992 was really his first season not 1991 as a replacement for the last 6 GP's of that year. Of course in spa he never made it past one lap and drove for Jordan so he was not competing against NP either.

[ratonmacias]

Because at the beginning of his F1 career he didn't have to fight one to one against a WDC team mate?
Guys try at least say something realistic when talking about him.

god please dont. did you just google that up or did you actually watch those races.

piquet was a former champion and almost 40 he was last champ in 1987. and the chin started racing in 1991. he had already stated that he was leaving.

so you try to refute the statemant that the chin never had a worthy teammate because he was teamed with a former champ for his last 3 races where the chin had nothing to lose?

how would that compare to the really greats of the sport who were scared of no one?

lauda, prost, senna, schekcter,mansell and rosberg were teammates between them and champions. and usually any combination of them had drivers on their prime.

in the modern times we have only seen equally matched teammates on a top team a few times. Villeneuve - Hill Alonso - Hamilton Kimi - Massa and Button - Barrichelo.

now after the brief essay please mention a top tier driver of their time to partner the chin.

[Valve Bounce]

now after the brief essay please mention a top tier driver of their time to partner the chin.

Eddie?

[F1boat]

We still can never know about the teammates, maybe Michael made them look ordinary. We have to say that Irvine fought with Hakkinen till the very end of 1999 and while the Ferrari was the more reliable car, the McLaren was much faster.
I believe that Michael is the greatest ever driver, extremely fast and the best, by far, in his generation. He allied himself with teams who wanted very badly to win, they knew that he works better when he is team leader and arranged him that. This, in my opinion, proved to be the right choice, as evident from the results.

[Big Ben]

We still can never know about the teammates, maybe Michael made them look ordinary. We have to say that Irvine fought with Hakkinen till the very end of 1999 and while the Ferrari was the more reliable car, the McLaren was much faster.
I believe that Michael is the greatest ever driver, extremely fast and the best, by far, in his generation. He allied himself with teams who wanted very badly to win, they knew that he works better when he is team leader and arranged him that. This, in my opinion, proved to be the right choice, as evident from the results.

IRC in 1999 he fought Hakkinen up to the point he broke his legs.

Yes, he made them look ordinary otherwise they would have beaten the living daylights out of everybody (to quote Homer Simpson " btw, I was being sarcastic").

Greatest ever? why? because statistics prove it? statiscs would say that a man with legs on fire and head in the fridge is doing ok.

[Big Ben]

Eddie?

:laugh:

[Dzeidzei]

Dunno if there are stats ready anywhere, but I dont think MSc has lost many times in quali to his teammate? Does anyone know any better? I think Rubens beat him but only once or twice.

However, Schumi has lost to Nico every time! :)

[BTCC2]

Yeah, all 1 times.

[Ranger]

Dunno if there are stats ready anywhere, but I dont think MSc has lost many times in quali to his teammate? Does anyone know any better? I think Rubens beat him but only once or twice.

However, Schumi has lost to Nico every time! :)

From a quick glance at Wiki there's at least 15 times that Rubens outqualified Michael.

Ignoring all the BS, Michael was less than 4 seconds behind after a 3-year layoff. That says a lot when you consider Mansell at the same age at the 1994 Australian GP was 35 seconds behind Hill at mid-race before the collision.

[F1boat]

IRC in 1999 he fought Hakkinen up to the point he broke his legs.

Yes, he made them look ordinary otherwise they would have beaten the living daylights out of everybody (to quote Homer Simpson " btw, I was being sarcastic").

Greatest ever? why? because statistics prove it? statiscs would say that a man with legs on fire and head in the fridge is doing ok.

Well, no need to be aggressive, but yes, I think that statistics prove it. I also have witnessed how the guy drives and in my opinion he is the best ever. I always had the feeling that he is outdoing his car - in the years when he lost to Williams and McLaren, in the years he dominated in Ferrari, always. I was never ever calm when he was against the drivers I supported and I was confident that he can do magic in the times I supported him. Maybe other people felt that way about other drivers in the years before Michael. These things are subjective. But for me, he is the best and the stats IMO are not hurting my opinion either.
And if he really loses to Rosberg this year, which I very much doubt, I think that it will be only because of age - this will prove once and for all the comebacks can never be truly successful. But I believe and hope that he will do his magic again and will beat Rosberg.

[F1boat]

From a quick glance at Wiki there's at least 15 times that Rubens outqualified Michael.

Ignoring all the BS, Michael was less than 4 seconds behind after a 3-year layoff. That says a lot when you consider Mansell at the same age at the 1994 Australian GP was 35 seconds behind Hill at mid-race before the collision.

Rubens had his great days and is a lot better than some people give him credit for. Not many drivers could do a win like Germany 2000.

[Valve Bounce]

From a quick glance at Wiki there's at least 15 times that Rubens outqualified Michael.

Ignoring all the BS, Michael was less than 4 seconds behind after a 3-year layoff. That says a lot when you consider Mansell at the same age at the 1994 Australian GP was 35 seconds behind Hill at mid-race before the collision.

I would normally not say anything to support SchM; however, that 4 seconds is insignificant. First of all, the chances of overtaking Rosberg in a similar car would have been fraught with danger, as it could have ended up with both of them ending up off the track if they battled. This argument is supported by the way Mark Webber pursued Bunsen and often was less than a second behind - but the pass was never on.

So SchM did the sensible thing and backed off. He finished behind Rosberg but in front of the next guy, and that's all that mattered. Rosberg got his points and SchM got his points. Trying to divide the 4 seconds into the number of laps is not a sensible argument.

[Sonic]

Dunno if there are stats ready anywhere, but I dont think MSc has lost many times in quali to his teammate? Does anyone know any better? I think Rubens beat him but only once or twice.

However, Schumi has lost to Nico every time! :)

According to Autosport, MS has only suffered total defeat (ie all free practise, qualifying and race) once before in his career.

[BDunnell]

I think Schuey has already succeeded in making a return at 41. Not many drivers of this age would be desirable at such a late age in a top team.. :)

There, devoid of derogatory nicknames or bluster, is by far the most sensible post in this entire thread. What more is there to say on the subject?

[truefan72]

Well, no need to be aggressive, but yes, I think that statistics prove it. I also have witnessed how the guy drives and in my opinion he is the best ever. I always had the feeling that he is outdoing his car - in the years when he lost to Williams and McLaren, in the years he dominated in Ferrari, always. I was never ever calm when he was against the drivers I supported and I was confident that he can do magic in the times I supported him. Maybe other people felt that way about other drivers in the years before Michael. These things are subjective. But for me, he is the best and the stats IMO are not hurting my opinion either.
And if he really loses to Rosberg this year, which I very much doubt, I think that it will be only because of age - this will prove once and for all the comebacks can never be truly successful. But I believe and hope that he will do his magic again and will beat Rosberg.

I may not like the guy or his tactics, but there is no disputing that to me he is the greatest F1 driver. His statistics are not just numbers, they are staggering. Yeah he had some dominant cars, but so did other great champs. No matter what one thinks of him, he was and is a superb driver with that unique quality of getting more out of a car than what seems possible.There are huge character flaws and blemishes in his career as well as some cars that i thought were wavering on legality and some other situations that confirmed the worst of the FIArrari pact, but still, it's really no contest IMO

[F1boat]

I may not like the guy or his tactics, but there is no disputing that to me he is the greatest F1 driver. His statistics are not just numbers, they are staggering. Yeah he had some dominant cars, but so did other great champs. No matter what one thinks of him, he was and is a superb driver with that unique quality of getting more out of a car than what seems possible.There are huge character flaws and blemishes in his career as well as some cars that i thought were wavering on legality and some other situations that confirmed the worst of the FIArrari pact, but still, it's really no contest IMO

Respect for that post, pal.

[Big Ben]

I don´t doubt he´s great. Saying he´s decent was more of a joke than anything else. However since it´s kind of difficult to compare drivers from different ages (actually it´s not easy to compare the drivers from the same age since it´s pretty difficult to asses how much of one´s performance is due to his equipment) I really resent the use of absolute terms like "the greatest"... I can understand that a group of drivers are "the greatest" but to single out just one out of so many... it doesn´t sound right. I have nothing against the driver with the best "stats"... that would be absolutely correct. I´m convinced that Rosberg would have a much tougher time against the 2004 Schumacher. I´m also convinced that he had it easier than others and that why his stats look so so so good.

[Volky34]

When a name is that big, the burden is so heavy that people just can't wait for a couple of grands prix to have a final jugdment on his comeback... :) I'm not a Schumi fanatic, but he's really in great shape after a three year break. We should look at Fisichella and Badoer in last year's Ferrari.. We should look at Lauda's and Mansell's first races after their comebacks considering their teammates ... Being consistent and comfortable with the car is awfully harder than it seems on TV :)

Some people around me reached the following conclusion after the Bahrain GP: Hamilton is faster than Alonso, Alonso is much more faster than Schumi ever was compared to Massa. So Hamilton is faster than Schumi ever was.... Can u believe that? Is it that simple for f**k's sake?? :dozey:


I think he might win a couple of GPs this year but unless Ross Brawn takes something special out of the bag, it's Alonso's or Vettel's year.( Mc Laren and Lewis worry me, though) The real target is 2011 methinks.... If he outcores Nico at the end of 2010, he will have done the job.. The rest depends on the car and the team.. No one can blame him if he can't be world champion this year...

What saddens me is that the majority of the people with the exception of the real F1 viewers only look at the results completely ignoring the parameters leading to them..

[ratonmacias]

I may not like the guy or his tactics, but there is no disputing that to me he is the greatest F1 driver. His statistics are not just numbers, they are staggering. Yeah he had some dominant cars, but so did other great champs. No matter what one thinks of him, he was and is a superb driver with that unique quality of getting more out of a car than what seems possible.There are huge character flaws and blemishes in his career as well as some cars that i thought were wavering on legality and some other situations that confirmed the worst of the FIArrari pact, but still, it's really no contest IMO

while his statistics are staggering and there is no denying that statiscally he is the best.

however i have always disliked his lack of sportmanship, his reluctancy to take on worthy drivers as teammates and the neverending doubts about the legality of some cars he drove to the championship.

[ioan]

while his statistics are staggering and there is no denying that statiscally he is the best.

however i have always disliked his lack of sportmanship, his reluctancy to take on worthy drivers as teammates and the neverending doubts about the legality of some cars he drove to the championship.

MS' problem is that all his team mates became unworthy drivers after a season alongside him. Just adds to his impressive achievements.

[F1boat]

while his statistics are staggering and there is no denying that statiscally he is the best.

however i have always disliked his lack of sportmanship, his reluctancy to take on worthy drivers as teammates and the neverending doubts about the legality of some cars he drove to the championship.

This has little to do with his amazing ability. Many great drivers will do many things to win.

[BDunnell]

MS' problem is that all his team mates became unworthy drivers after a season alongside him. Just adds to his impressive achievements.

What a depressing commentary on the modern F1 'fan'. Can anyone imagine an F1 enthusiast of the 1950s suggesting that one of Fangio's positive qualities was his ability to make his team-mates look inferior?

[Valve Bounce]

What a depressing commentary on the modern F1 'fan'. Can anyone imagine an F1 enthusiast of the 1950s suggesting that one of Fangio's positive qualities was his ability to make his team-mates look inferior?

Well, yeah!! if they had consistently been told they were #2 and instructed to "move over", they would also have looked inferior.

[ratonmacias]

This has little to do with his amazing ability. Many great drivers will do many things to win.

actually it does as his "amazing ability" was boosted by poor drivers in the second seat of the team.

had he done the same with hill villeneuve hakkinen alonso or raikkonen then there would be no denial of his superiority. as it stands to me he is not the best.

[Koz]

actually it does as his "amazing ability" was boosted by poor drivers in the second seat of the team.

had he done the same with hill villeneuve hakkinen alonso or raikkonen then there would be no denial of his superiority. as it stands to me he is not the best.

:eek:

[ioan]

actually it does as his "amazing ability" was boosted by poor drivers in the second seat of the team.

had he done the same with hill villeneuve hakkinen alonso or raikkonen then there would be no denial of his superiority. as it stands to me he is not the best.

How do you know that the drivers you mention were not offered a seat along MS and turned it down knowing they will lose in a direct battle?
You just look to your side of the story and post rubbish you can't substantiate.

What is sure is that at 41 MS is still out there racing in a top team and I understand that it bothers you when you think that JV has to be happy with his guitar.

Schuey has never found himself in a competitive team paired with a teammate that is strong enough to truly challenge his wonderful talent.

Nor should he.

It is only internet critics who give a toss about it.

Common sense says there is no point having a team-mate capable of challenging as it just makes the job harder.

The job, by the way, is to win. There are no degrees of victory.

Michael was in a position to recieve outright No1 status and only a fool would not have taken that opportunity if they were offered it.

No other driver would have turned it down had they been good enough to have been made the offer.

[Valve Bounce]

Nor should he.

It is only internet critics who give a toss about it.

Common sense says there is no point having a team-mate capable of challenging as it just makes the job harder.

The job, by the way, is to win. There are no degrees of victory.

Michael was in a position to receive outright No1 status and only a fool would not have taken that opportunity if they were offered it.

No other driver would have turned it down had they been good enough to have been made the offer.

I don't think anyone can argue against that. My only uncertainty here is whether SchM was offered the #1 spot or whether he insisted on the #1 spot at Ferrari. But the number of wins for both is proof that it worked.

[Robinho]

as for the thread's question, it depends on your view of success. if by success you expect the sort of results and performances from before, i say no, he will not succeed.

however if you think being competitive would be a mark of success for his comeback (which i do) then yes, he already has been successful. he may fight for a few wins, if the car is up to it.

for me the comeback is already a success, even if he appears to have lost a little (and i mean a little) of the old magic, to be competitive amongst the current crop is better than most new drivers manage

[Valve Bounce]

It certainly worked and from a business point of view it makes sense to adopt this stance with one strong driver. Seeing the way teams of late are hiring drivers on an equal basis, I do think it offers more excitement to the proceedings and allows drivers to measure themselves against a competitive teammate. That has proved to be at the expense of a world championship in Mclarens case however, but I still welcome this method as a fan... :)

Thinking about this quite seriously, let's look at this from a totally different perspective. Just suppose that the FIA has not "outlawed" team tactics, and we are running a team which is as good as the other top two teams, but we have just hired a new sensational driver called, for argument sake, Gary Ablett. This guy Gary is really good and can drive at least .2 seconds faster around any track than anyone else. Now we hear there is another reasonably good driver called Cameron Ling who is desperate to get into a good team. Now we know that if we can have full support from Cameron for Gary, then we will win the premiership. So we ask Cameron if he will drive his races to support Gary, to help him win if at all possible, and he agrees.

And we win both premierships. So! what's wrong with that?

[BDunnell]

It is only internet critics who give a toss about it.

I don't disagree with any of your points here. But maybe you should be reminded that you yourself are also, in posting on here on various subjects, nothing more than an 'internet critic' either.

[Valve Bounce]

I like to see the "Jenson vs Lewis" and ............. battles ......... :)

Just as a matter of interest, what makes you think there will be any Bunsen vs Hamilton battles? :p :

[F1boat]

How do you know that the drivers you mention were not offered a seat along MS and turned it down knowing they will lose in a direct battle?
You just look to your side of the story and post rubbish you can't substantiate.

What is sure is that at 41 MS is still out there racing in a top team and I understand that it bothers you when you think that JV has to be happy with his guitar.

Brutal, but correct.

[ioan]

So, who were MS' teammates at Ferrari?

Eddie Irvine - a hot prospect at the time when Todt hired him, he was getting solid results (podium placing) with Jordan in '95 and went on to fight for the championship against the so much hailed Hakkinen in 1999.

Rubens Barrichello - he was also a hot prospect at the time he was hired, before switching to Ferrari he's got podium finishes and a pole positions while driving for Jordan and Stewart Ford.

Felipe Massa - most of you already know how fast and strong of a driver he is.

I fail to see who should have Ferrari hired instead of Irvine and Barrichello?
Hakkinen was a nobody in '95, Coulthard also, Hill was an aged test driver, Frentzen went on to become nothing, Berger and Alesi had just been changed from Ferrari.

Let's face it, Irvine and Barrichello were as good as anyone would have found on the grid at that moment. Anyway,people around here make some outlandish and unsubstantiated claims without even thinking about what they claim, just for the sake of bashing the driver and team who destroyed their favorites.

[ioan]

It just goes to show that the era we are seeing now and the talent on grid is vastly different to the mid to late 90's. Schuey was a vastly superior driver in that period and its a pity for the sake of arguement, that we are unable to see him measured against a grid like today when he was in his prime.

We don't even know if the current grid is better than the one MS was up against in his prime. All we know is that the level of the grid nowadays is more even because none of them stands out like MS did back then.

[EuroTroll]

I don't see anything to suggest that the likes of Vettel, Alonso, and Hamilton are inferior to a 25 year old Michael Schumacher.

Well, if old man Schumacher can take on and beat these drivers who are in their prime, I think that means that prime time Schumacher was better than these drivers are.

If...

[F1boat]

We don't even know if the current grid is better than the one MS was up against in his prime. All we know is that the level of the grid nowadays is more even because none of them stands out like MS did back then.

I have to agree. In my opinion Michael was very special and that's why other competent drivers like Barrichello, R Schumacher, Montoya or Coulthard couldn't win a championship.

[Saint Devote]

Very true in that instance, but I wouldn't put the likes of Barrichello, R Schumacher and certainly not Coulthard on the same plateau as Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso.. :)

I wouldn't place Vettel or Hamilton in the same league as Alonso either. He has no weaknesses and is team LEADER along the lines of Schumi as opposed to being capable of number 1 status as the other two you have mentioned.

Evidence the Japanese Grand Prix of 2008 for example. Hamilton relies on his team and obeys.

At this stage I would not put Schumacher at the same level as Alonso - no other driver in fact.

If Ferrari maintain a rate of development equal to other teams then as teh season matures, Alonso is going to become stronger.

At this stage, aside from mechanical failure, even though it is early in the season, I reckon Alonso is on the way to his third title.

Schumacher will also become stronger - in my view, Schumi once up to strength is going to take care of everyone except Alonso in his stride by mid-season.

[Malbec]

I'd love to know what you think you see when you watch a grand prix. Its almost as though the last 3 years do not exist. Alonso has not shown the superiority over the likes of Vettel and particularly Hamilton to which you claim here.

Quite. Whilst Alonso is IMO extremely strong his performance both in and out of the car against Hamilton 2007 did not show any sign of superiority as an overall package, surprising given it was Lewis' first season.

There is no evidence to suggest that Alonso is in a league of his own. He is merely one amongst a group of top drivers that includes Vettel, Hamilton and hopefully a rejuvenated Schumi.

We're lucky that we're being treated to a fourway battle that includes such a wide breadth of talent.

[Big Ben]

I'd love to know what you think you see when you watch a grand prix. Its almost as though the last 3 years do not exist. Alonso has not shown the superiority over the likes of Vettel and particularly Hamilton to which you claim here.

Funny. It looks like you haven´t been paying too much attention during the last 3 years either.

[Saint Devote]

I'd love to know what you think you see when you watch a grand prix. Its almost as though the last 3 years do not exist. Alonso has not shown the superiority over the likes of Vettel and particularly Hamilton to which you claim here.

He has not?

His victory at Suzuka in 2008 was a masterpiece. Neither Vettel nor Hamilton have managed a victory like that. Hamilton takes instructions from his team - he does not comand his position as does Alonso. I rate it as his greatest victory ever demonstrating as a driver his enormous capacity and leadership.

I suspect that in Bahrain Vettel did not pace himself well and Alonso, who caught up to him, was managing for the last 12 laps - in the end he did not have to and won far ahead of everyone else.

Alonso beat Schumacher and managed consecutive championship wins. This changed the game for Ferrari. Di Montezemolo pushed Schumacher out and hired Raikonnen because he lost confidence in Schumacher. He reckoned Michael should have won in 2006. It began the schism that led to Todt leaving.

This is why I consider Alonso superior. He is not only quick but he is a game changer and the last driver to command that respect was Schumacher.

This is why I think that Fernando will claim his third title in 2010 if the Ferrari remains competitive. All the other drivers, except Schumacher are not gamechangers.

Of course they are excellent drivers but not in the same league as the Spaniard. Hamilton even mentioned how he doubted himself during the difficulties in 2009. Alonso even during the most difficult and frustrating times at Renaul in 2008 and 2009 remained resolute about himself.

[Saint Devote]

We're lucky that we're being treated to a fourway battle that includes such a wide breadth of talent.

Fourway?

A week ago it looked pretty much two-way to me - Red Bull and Ferrari.
Well ONE Red Bull at least!

Maybe Albert Park will see a stronger Mclaren and Mercedes. Woking seems to think that the track will suit it better and both Jenson and Lewis [there is a store in Manhattan at 16th and &th if I recall called: "Jensen - Lewis"!!!!] know how go quickly and to win there.

[Malbec]

He has not?

His victory at Suzuka in 2008 was a masterpiece. Neither Vettel nor Hamilton have managed a victory like that. Hamilton takes instructions from his team - he does not comand his position as does Alonso. I rate it as his greatest victory ever demonstrating as a driver his enormous capacity and leadership.

I suspect that in Bahrain Vettel did not pace himself well and Alonso, who caught up to him, was managing for the last 12 laps - in the end he did not have to and won far ahead of everyone else.

Alonso beat Schumacher and managed consecutive championship wins. This changed the game for Ferrari. Di Montezemolo pushed Schumacher out and hired Raikonnen because he lost confidence in Schumacher. He reckoned Michael should have won in 2006. It began the schism that led to Todt leaving.

This is why I consider Alonso superior. He is not only quick but he is a game changer and the last driver to command that respect was Schumacher.

This is why I think that Fernando will claim his third title in 2010 if the Ferrari remains competitive. All the other drivers, except Schumacher are not gamechangers.

Of course they are excellent drivers but not in the same league as the Spaniard. Hamilton even mentioned how he doubted himself during the difficulties in 2009. Alonso even during the most difficult and frustrating times at Renaul in 2008 and 2009 remained resolute about himself.

Interesting that you skirt around the difficult subject of Alonso's behaviour in and out of the car during 2007. Gamechanger? Yes I agree, few drivers have been so perturbed by their teammates that they've decided to dob their team in to the FIA.

Has Alonso had great races in the past three years? Of course he has. As have Hamilton, Vettel and even that great underachiever Button. Does that mean he is superior to the first two? No. I do not understand why you think that not being a teamplayer is a plus point in the days when without the engineers giving the drivers constant guidance through the race the drivers would be left high and dry.

Being a fan of a driver is one thing. Letting that support alter your perception of reality is another.

[Malbec]

Fourway?

A week ago it looked pretty much two-way to me - Red Bull and Ferrari.
Well ONE Red Bull at least!

Maybe Albert Park will see a stronger Mclaren and Mercedes. Woking seems to think that the track will suit it better and both Jenson and Lewis [there is a store in Manhattan at 16th and &th if I recall called: "Jensen - Lewis"!!!!] know how go quickly and to win there.

SD, are you really a 'fan' of F1 or merely a troll?

Was Bahrain decided almost entirely by quali and a few technical/pitstop problems for the leaders or by overtaking?

'ONE Red Bull at least'? Hmmm interesting comment that suggests that you didn't see the clear problems cars had overtaking each other. Your supposed hero Alonso showed himself to be two seconds quicker than Vettel but only after he got into clear air after Sebastian's spark plug problems. Where did that two second advantage get him while he was behind Vettel? Absolutely nowhere.

Likewise Webber showed astounding pace whilst in clear air, yet for most of the race he was following others and unable to overtake, an indication not of his ability but of the current difficulty overtaking. One Red Bull? Webber isn't far off Vettel's pace, his quali performance in Bahrain notwithstanding. Anyone who had followed him over the past season or two would know that wouldn't they.

If you really are the long term F1 fan of great knowledge and understanding that you claim you are UP YOUR GAME. You patronise others and pretend to have inside knowledge yet your posts show unbelievable ignorance. I'm still laughing about your old post that claimed that Brawn was a direct descendant of Tyrrell, one of those 'facts' that differentiate those who know and those who don't.

[Valve Bounce]

SD, are you really a 'fan' of F1 or merely a troll?



Don't ask ! :rolleyes: Don't ask! :(

[airshifter]

He has not?

His victory at Suzuka in 2008 was a masterpiece. Neither Vettel nor Hamilton have managed a victory like that. Hamilton takes instructions from his team - he does not comand his position as does Alonso. I rate it as his greatest victory ever demonstrating as a driver his enormous capacity and leadership.



And in 2008 he came in 5th in the WDC. A single race alone does not make any driver. Heidfeld and Heikki both bested or equalled him in podium finishes in 2008. As for being such a leader, the "leader" should have dominated his much less experienced team mate in 2007, but did not.

In equal cars, the best he could do was match Lewis in points. And he had the advantage of the Ferrari information passed on from DeLaRosa that Lewis did not. Seems that Flavio realized Alonso needed such cheap advantages, and helped him with more scandal later.

[F1boat]

He has not?

His victory at Suzuka in 2008 was a masterpiece. Neither Vettel nor Hamilton have managed a victory like that. Hamilton takes instructions from his team - he does not comand his position as does Alonso. I rate it as his greatest victory ever demonstrating as a driver his enormous capacity and leadership.



I agree. One of the best wins ever. :)

[ShiftingGears]

He has not?

His victory at Suzuka in 2008 was a masterpiece.

You mean Fuji.

[Sonic]

He has not?

His victory at Suzuka in 2008 was a masterpiece. Neither Vettel nor Hamilton have managed a victory like that. Hamilton takes instructions from his team - he does not comand his position as does Alonso. I rate it as his greatest victory ever demonstrating as a driver his enormous capacity and leadership.


Is that the 2008 Fuji GP to which you refer? I think you are changing history to suit your own point Saint. That was the race, as I am sure we all recall, that Hamilton got a touch of the crazies and ploughed Kimi off the road at turn 1. Massa and Hamilton tooked each other out of the equation and the only remaining "top" car of the second McLaren retired. Without those incidents Alonso would have come home 4th - 3rd at best and no one would remember the pitstop call.

The difference between Lewis and Fred is that in poor cars one gave up and looked a shaddow of himself on the track, the other looked haunted out of the car but wrestled the beast round faster than it had any business managing. I'll leave you to figure out who is who.

ps As you a fond of quoting things drivers have said perhaps you can mull over the fact that Alonso himself has declared he is not the fastest driver.

[Big Ben]

And in 2008 he came in 5th in the WDC. A single race alone does not make any driver. Heidfeld and Heikki both bested or equalled him in podium finishes in 2008. As for being such a leader, the "leader" should have dominated his much less experienced team mate in 2007, but did not.

In equal cars, the best he could do was match Lewis in points. And he had the advantage of the Ferrari information passed on from DeLaRosa that Lewis did not. Seems that Flavio realized Alonso needed such cheap advantages, and helped him with more scandal later.

So so true... Besides that race I don't recall him achieving anything else. And even Heikki equaled him in the best car... how pathetic is that?

And 2007 he barely matched his team mate in points after having to compete against his own team while Dennis' favorite son actually managed to throw away his team's best chances to win something in a decade. Well, actually if you compare Alonso with a driver with such achievements he looks pathetic... even if his team would have sent him to race on a bicycle (they would have) if they could.

And it's a proven fact that McLaren was completely innocent in the spying scandal and that information circulated only between Ferrari, De La Rosa and Alonso. I can imagine Alonso working in his garage in the night with a hammer trying to copy somehow the Ferrari design.

and than for the sake of consensus I will accept your conviction that your biased opinion based on almost no facts at all is the absolute truth. He probably went himself to FB and told him: "Listen up buddy, I figured NP jr. no good has driven around with no purpose for too long now. We should have him crash so I could win the race. He would probably crash anyway but we should take an advantage from it by making him crash at an appropiate time." FB "But Fernando, how do we make him go along with this?" FA: "Well, we get some 10 points from this so that's like 15 races for him. Tell you'll let him drive around for some 15 more races" FB "And after that?" FA "After that you do whatever you want with him, I'll have signed with Ferrari by then, I don't care". If FA actually had anything to do with it I congratulate him for seeing NP jr no good true potential. That's the stroke of a genius.

[Saint Devote]

Underrate Alonso all you want - he is still the most accomplished driver on the grid - aside from Schumacher.

He defeated Schumacher TWICE and is currently number one driver for Ferrari and leads the 2010 championship.

It is the peaks the quality of the peaks that one judges a driver and he commands from the cockpit which he did as an excellent example in Japan 2008 and in an inferior car.

A driver such as Hamilton obeys his team.

PS: he was placed NINTH as the alltime great in the driver survey undertaken by Autosport - aside from Schumacher - it makes him the best driver on the grid and in front of him were THE names of motor racing.

[Valve Bounce]

I thought Bunsen was the greatest driver on the grid. :confused:

I'd love to know what you think you see when you watch a grand prix. Its almost as though the last 3 years do not exist. Alonso has not shown the superiority over the likes of Vettel and particularly Hamilton to which you claim here.

Yet you know full well why Fernando struggled against Hamilton.

"We Were Racing Alonso" says it all.

But, of course, Mclaren are a team with integrity and honesty, I forget.

Except the last three seasons that you claim to have been watching show that to be quite false.

You can cling on to that Dennis quote, and shroud it in conspiracy theories all you like. There is no proof, its only your opinion.



It is not my opinion that Ron Dennis said those very words.

It is fact.

That is what is known as proof, straight from the horses mouth.

[henners88]

It is not my opinion that Ron Dennis said those very words.
It is fact.
That is what is known as proof, straight from the horses mouth.
I know full well what he said, but I don't know how so much can be read from one sentence. Is this you tamb? :p
http://www.joeydevilla.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/gary_spivey_psychic_medium.jpg
So you believe certain things Ron Dennis says then?

[SGWilko]

"We Were Racing Alonso" says it all.

Unwritten understood and accepted rule No.1 of F1 - first person to beat is your teammate.

If you are not permitted to race your teammate, that suggests team orders.

[ArrowsFA1]

The exact quote (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article2609933.ece) was in answer to a question put to RD immediately after the 2007 Chinese GP when he said:
"The problem was rain and his [Hamilton’s] tyres were in the worst condition. But we weren’t at all fazed about Kimi [Raikkonen]. We weren’t racing Kimi, we were basically racing Fernando. Kimi winning and Lewis coming second was adequate. It just didn’t quite work out that way."
Fact and context.

[ArrowsFA1]

Still, not sure what this has to do with the success, or otherwise, of MS's comeback :crazy:

[Garry Walker]

I suspect that in Bahrain Vettel did not pace himself well and Alonso, who caught up to him, was managing for the last 12 laps - in the end he did not have to and won far ahead of everyone else.

I suspect you have absolutely no proof or evidence to support your "suspicion"


I wouldn't place Vettel or Hamilton in the same league as Alonso either. He has no weaknesses and is team LEADER along the lines of Schumi as opposed to being capable of number 1 status as the other two you have mentioned.
Vettel and Hamilton both are better drivers than alonso. Hamilton proved it enough in 2007.



Evidence the Japanese Grand Prix of 2008 for example. Hamilton relies on his team and obeys.

What evidence, what was so grand about what he did?


Underrate Alonso all you want - he is still the most accomplished driver on the grid - aside from Schumacher.

He defeated Schumacher TWICE and is currently number one driver for Ferrari and leads the 2010 championship.
Schumacher defeated Alonso THREE TIMES.



It is the peaks the quality of the peaks that one judges a driver and he commands from the cockpit which he did as an excellent example in Japan 2008 and in an inferior car. What was so excellent about it?



A driver such as Hamilton obeys his team. As does the "great Alonso".
Remember, he himself claimed he had nothing to do with picking the strategy for singapore GP, and said he LEAVES IT ALL FOR THE TEAM TO CHOOSE. So much about him making the calls.



PS: he was placed NINTH as the alltime great in the driver survey undertaken by Autosport - aside from Schumacher - it makes him the best driver on the grid and in front of him were THE names of motor racing.So autosport survey is it. That is all that counts, right?

The exact quote (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article2609933.ece) was in answer to a question put to RD immediately after the 2007 Chinese GP when he said:
Fact and context.

Thank you for confirming the fact and context.

Which was, as you have so kindly proven, that Ron Dennis, the team principal of Mclaren, confirming with his own mouth that the team were racing Alonso.

[Garry Walker]

Thank you for confirming the fact and context.

Which was, as you have so kindly proven, that Ron Dennis, the team principal of Mclaren, confirming with his own mouth that the team were racing Alonso.

Yep, so got any proof about Alonso being harmed by McLaren or not given equal treatment?
This is usually were Alonso fans suddenly get busy and claim their mums need their PCs

[ArrowsFA1]

I suspect you have absolutely no proof or evidence to support your "suspicion"
It's not a bad suspicion though is it?

With the new regs a lot of talk pre-race centered on how drivers would manage the tyres and fuel load. Is it possible that Alonso managed his tyres and fuel better than Vettel?

Still, not sure what this has to do with the success, or otherwise, of MS's comeback :crazy: :p

[Garry Walker]

It's not a bad suspicion though is it?

With the new regs a lot of talk pre-race centered on how drivers would manage the tyres and fuel load. Is it possible that Alonso managed his tyres and fuel better than Vettel?


The idea behind his suspicion is to hype up alonso without there being any proof whatsoever.

[Big Ben]

At Silverstone everyone goes with his own setup and LH manages to finish behind KR and FA even if he got the pole.

At Monza FA gets the pole with his first attempt. Neither of the other 3 direct competitors managed to get a better time with 2 attempts (and this was when drivers had to fight for pole with their cars loaded with fuel, so they actually didn't go faster with lighter cars). IRC that year nobody managed that. He dominated the race and won easily. After that all of a sudden he got slow and couldn't beat LH anymore. I'm convinced McLaren only supported LH during those days with the warmth of their hearts.

[ArrowsFA1]

Thank you for confirming the fact and context.
You're welcome, both for the thanks, and to your own interpretation of RD's comments.

Now, back to the question at hand - will Schumi make a success of his comeback?

[Firstgear]

Now, back to the question at hand - will Schumi make a success of his comeback?

It's the bottom of page 12 and still no answer. I think it would be easier if MS came on here and posted his goals for the season.

[SGWilko]

the team were racing Alonso.

I imagine 'the team' here to be the Hamilton race team, Alonso no doubt having his own race team.

Not a particularly taxing concept to comprehend.

[SGWilko]

Is it possible that Alonso managed his tyres and fuel better than Vettel?p

Absolutely, and I think he most likely had. Bet he would not have found a way past though, as the performance differencial just was not there, given the limited passing opprtunities at the track.

Oh, and Schumi has done quite nicely thank you very much in his first race for 3 years. ;)

Yep, so got any proof about Alonso being harmed by McLaren or not given equal treatment?


How many other times have the FIA needed to police a garage to ensure fair play?

How about the mysterious tyre-pressure changes that led to the FIA putting a steward in the Mclaren garage?

How about the fact that Hamilton recieved no meaningful sanction by the team for his actions in Budapest?

Now, obviously a team wouldn't broadcast such underhand tactics to the world, but nevermind that as Mclaren, I keep forgetting, are above such things.

This is Mclaren we are talking about, after all, a by-word for integrity and honesty, certainly not a place were anything untoward would ever happen.

At least it is if, like Henners, you actually haven't been watching F1 these past three years.

[SGWilko]

How about the mysterious tyre-pressure changes that led to the FIA putting a steward in the Mclaren garage?

Is a driver of an F1 car being off the pace due to incorrect tyre pressures a new concept?

[ArrowsFA1]

How many other times have the FIA needed to police a garage to ensure fair play?
FIA officials are always present in team garages throughout a race weekend to observe and check what teams are doing. Here's an example from Bahrain this year (two officials in white bibs near the rear wheel):

http://cdn.gallery.autosport.com/picture_free.php/dir/2010bah3/image/su_10brn1926-2

[SGWilko]

FIA officials are always present in team garages throughout a race weekend to observe and check what teams are doing. Here's an example from Bahrain this year (two officials in white bibs near the rear wheel):

http://cdn.gallery.autosport.com/picture_free.php/dir/2010bah3/image/su_10brn1926-2

Bet they are looking for HRT pills, smuggled illegally in the tyres - hence the wrong pressures.

FIA officials are always present in team garages throughout a race weekend to observe and check what teams are doing. Here's an example from Bahrain this year (two officials in white bibs near the rear wheel):

http://cdn.gallery.autosport.com/picture_free.php/dir/2010bah3/image/su_10brn1926-2

Yes, but they are not normally there to police internal team matters, as was the case in Brazil 2007.

In fact, that has only occurred on that one occasion, so your attempted deflection hasn't worked.

Rather, it has proved my point very nicely.

Is a driver of an F1 car being off the pace due to incorrect tyre pressures a new concept?

No, but then neither is the concept of Ron Dennis being in charge of a team that scuppered their own drivers chances.

[SGWilko]

No, but then neither is the concept of Ron Dennis being in charge of a team that scuppered their own drivers chances.

A team that supplied equal equipment to the top two drivers in 1988 & 1989 did not have FIA inspectors imposed on it because of unequal treatment.

Can we have some documented evidence that either of McLarens drivers in 2007 had their chances deliberately on purpose not by accident scuppered by the team?

[Malbec]

Alot of people have claimed in his absence that MS could win in a mid field car purely down to his driving ability, but that is evidently not the case. In modern F1 the car takes so much of the advantage and the best drivers in the world can only go to the cars limit. I fear if Mercedes do not get within striking distance of Red Bull, then we may see Michael claiming the odd podium rather than the dream comeback we all hoped for. :)

My fear is that 'Mercedes GP' or rather Brackley GP is not in the same league as the other top boys in terms of R/D, and that Michael's comeback career will be dictated more by that than by any other factor.

Brackley depended probably more than any other manufacturer owned team on its owners (Honda) own R/D resources which was beneficial for both parties, Honda got to train its own engineers and Brackley drove down costs. While the process of getting Brackley and Honda R/D to work seamlessly took a while the end product was the BGP001.

Now Brackley has spent a year on its own where it clearly couldn't develop at the pace of the rest of the field because its own R/D depts are actually quite small. This year its working with Mercedes which is doing things on a budget thats about a quarter to a half of what Honda used to spend and which probably isn't going to want to divert its own R/D resources to help the team. In this kind of situation I think Brackley is going to come up short against the dedicated leading F1 teams. Michael may have to content himself with putting Rosberg in his place this season rather than winning championships.

[Valve Bounce]

You're welcome, both for the thanks, and to your own interpretation of RD's comments.

Now, back to the question at hand - will Schumi make a success of his comeback?

In my book, he has already done exceptionally well and will only improve. So, yeah! I have no doubt.

[Saint Devote]

I thought Bunsen was the greatest driver on the grid. :confused:

Jenson is one of the best, the reigning champion, his Monaco Grand Prix 2009 weekend was equal to the best and he is the driver I support and have supported for ages.

But there is a difference between supporting a driver and recognizing which driver standsout. Since Schumacher there is only one and he is Fernando Alonso.

[Saint Devote]

Unwritten understood and accepted rule No.1 of F1 - first person to beat is your teammate.

If you are not permitted to race your teammate, that suggests team orders.

And of course there was the unique Ron Dennis way of managing things............

But I think in current racing all the drivers are being given a fair shake.

[Saint Devote]

IRemember, he himself claimed he had nothing to do with picking the strategy for singapore GP, and said he LEAVES IT ALL FOR THE TEAM TO CHOOSE. So much about him making the calls.

So autosport survey is it. That is all that counts, right?

You spin the situation or you really are ignorant about what happens?

Alonso will go with the team strategy unless he reads things differently and as in Japan assumed command of his strategy and won iin a car that was also not supposed to.

Mclaren will NOT allow that with Hamilton - the radio communication is always that of Hamilton obeying not commanding.

Fernando Alonso unlike Hamilton has moral courage. He had the courage to stand by his friend Flavio Briatore in the face of all the world.

Hamilton was part of the troika from Mclaren who took the stiletto and slid it between the ribs of Dave Ryan.

Maybe one day Hamilton will rise to the level of Alonso and Schumacher - he's not there just yet and may never reach that level, but to do so he is going to have to have the courage to leave his extremely comfortable zone.

Spoilt children seldom do.

[Saint Devote]

Yep, so got any proof about Alonso being harmed by McLaren or not given equal treatment?


You mean aside from Alonso himself?

One name: ALAIN PROST

Hamilton knew that he was Dennis' "boy". Do you recall the "incident" - Hamilton causing problems in the pits in 2007? Hamilton only this year stated that he regretted it.

The proof is there and the history exists - naturally YOU could declare that Prost and Alonso are liars........

It was Ron Dennis' way and especially Alonso, when he left his "home" at Renault he correctly expected to be treated as the Schumacher slayer and twice world champion that he is.

Instead he was the usurper.

[Saint Devote]

No, but then neither is the concept of Ron Dennis being in charge of a team that scuppered their own drivers chances.

Which is why I think that if Dennis had still been in command of Mclaren F1, Jenson would NEVER have joined the team.

Under Witmarsh it is a better team for drivers alongside the faveored one's such as Lewis.

[airshifter]

Being one of the many to contribute to the off topic nature of many of the posts, it hit me that nobody is really discussing the real topic of if Schumacher will suceed in his F1 comeback.

I think this needed to be said pages ago.... but....



POLL PLEASE! :)


Then everyone can continue their attempts at distracting people away from the topic (and no doubt suceeding), but we will at least have poll results to look at to find out what the majority forum view is.

[Valve Bounce]

Jenson is one of the best, the reigning champion, his Monaco Grand Prix 2009 weekend was equal to the best and he is the driver I support and have supported for ages.

But there is a difference between supporting a driver and recognizing which driver standsout. Since Schumacher there is only one and he is Fernando Alonso.

Gosh!! After winning the WDC one year, now after just one race, "he don't stand out no more". :(

Oh! ye of little faith. Let the flame shine brightly, let the Bunsen conquer all, so that he standeth from the top of the podium once again!!

[Valve Bounce]

Being one of the many to contribute to the off topic nature of many of the posts, it hit me that nobody is really discussing the real topic of if Schumacher will suceed in his F1 comeback.

I think this needed to be said pages ago.... but....



POLL PLEASE! :)


Then everyone can continue their attempts at distracting people away from the topic (and no doubt suceeding), but we will at least have poll results to look at to find out what the majority forum view is.

Hey wait a minute. My post #251 above clearly states that he already has. You can't count me as nobody. :( :bigcry:

A team that supplied equal equipment to the top two drivers in 1988 & 1989 did not have FIA inspectors imposed on it because of unequal treatment.

No, but they were warned beforehand to ensure equal equipment by FISA.

That was something that had never been required before, so save the Mclaren-are-holier-than-thou clap-trap because it is just that, utter clap-trap.



Can we have some documented evidence that either of McLarens drivers in 2007 had their chances deliberately on purpose not by accident scuppered by the team?

You only need to go and look at the aftermath of Hungary GP qualifying to see deliberate scuppering of a driver by the team. Hamilton's actions were never punished. That makes the management totally complicit.

That you chose to ignore that speaks volumes. Open your eyes and your credibility would improve. Keep them closed and you remain what you are.

You're welcome, both for the thanks, and to your own interpretation of RD's comments.


You are the one interpreting and spinning like mad.

I simply state the words that Dennis said.

Ron Dennis was the team boss, remember?

That is all that needs to be known.

Never in his career has he committed to a 3 year contract

Are you sure about that?

His last contract extension with Ferrari was signed in 2003 and lasted until the end of 2006.

That's three years.

His initial Ferrari contract was for two years, but that was extended until 2001 in 1997.

That's more than three years.

[ArrowsFA1]

No, but they were warned beforehand to ensure equal equipment by FISA.
Before the start of the 1988 season :confused: I thought the any issues of equality were raised by Prost, well into their two years together, who felt that Honda (not McLaren) were favouring Senna by providing him with better engines.

I recall that Balestre did make some noises about this but, as with Mosley and his officials in the garage, it was done for effect. Jean-Marie and Max had a great deal in common in that sense.

[ArrowsFA1]

You are the one interpreting and spinning like mad.
:confused: :crazy:

I have provided the exact quote, with link, to show that the version of RD's comment you provided was not entirely accurate. That is not interpretation or spin. It's fact.

RD's comments are open to interpretation and you are perfectly entitled to interpret them however you see fit, as are we all.

[SGWilko]

You only need to go and look at the aftermath of Hungary GP qualifying to see deliberate scuppering of a driver by the team. Hamilton's actions were never punished. That makes the management totally complicit.


Note quite the clear evidence I was after, but if that's your best shot, tally ho.

Now, liken Hamilton overtaking Alonso in Hungary qually to this little tale;


One of the funniest descriptions came from Mark Webber after he and Williams team-mate Nico Rosberg tangled on the opening lap of the 2006 Brazilian Grand Prix.

They'd lined up 11th and 13th on the grid, a couple of hundredths apart and, in one of those moments guaranteed to send Patrick Head's blood pressure stratospheric, they came together at Turn 4.

Clearly, they were at odds about what had happened.

Webber: "I was fighting with Jenson [Button] and Pedro [de la Rosa] going into Turn 1/2/3, but then I braked a bit late going into Turn 4 and found myself hit from behind."

Rosberg: "After the start I was trying to get out of traffic and get back the place I had just lost to Jenson, so I was close behind Mark. I think he braked a metre early and I hit him."

So, picture the scene. Webber's car has a damaged diffuser, rear wing and, very possibly, a cut or punctured tyre. Rosberg's has a damaged nose and front wing. And they both know that whoever is last back to the pits is going to be stacked behind the other. So they begin a less than gentlemanly race to get there first.

Meanwhile, Bernie's TV guys have realised there's been some drama and are busy teeing up action replays. They're pretty quick and by the time Webber and Rosberg are halfway round the lap, there it is on screen. So now the Williams pit can see what's happened. More to the point, they can see what's damaged.

Formula 1 doesn't follow the rules of the road, whereby if you hit someone up the chuff it's your fault no matter what. In F1 the logic is that the front wing is a lot quicker to change than the rear. And so out goes the radio message to both drivers: "Priority Nico, priority Nico."

But Webber is still in front and, as the man driven into, thinks "bugger that..."

Of course, in the Williams pit they are ready with Rosberg's new nose and will be less than impressed if Webber arrives first. Through Mergulho and Juncao they come, Rosberg now trying to drive around the outside of Webber. But Mark doesn't cede, forces Nico wide and he picks up a load of dust and junk on his tyres. Nico keeps his boot firmly planted but with the combination of dirty tyres and damaged front wing, he has the mother and father of a shunt on the outside of the quick left onto the main straight.

Does Webber think "oh dear, my esteemed team-mate appears to have had a rather hefty accident. I do hope he's okay and hasn't spoiled his hair"? He does not. His competitive persona is more Aussie rules football than ice dancing, so he thinks: "You beauty!"

Then, with perfect timing, the Williams pit comes back on the radio: "Priority Nico. Repeat, priority Nico."

Now all but in the pitlane, Webber presses his radio button with a certain degree of enthusiasm: "Don't think so, mate. Britney's in the wall."


http://www.autosport.com/features/article.php/id/2689

It is called competive nature.

[Big Ben]

I totally agree and its a credit that they are where they are with limited resources compared with the top 3 teams. Mercedes spent hundreds of millions building facilities at Woking and it took a couple of years before this investment started having an advantage on the team. Brawn collaborated with Merc fairly late last year, so I get the impression the development up until November had been done on a fraction of the budget of say Ferrari and Mclaren.
:)

Didn't Wurz say Brawn's car was probably the most expensive one ever built in f1? That they've started working very early on it? That they've used up to 3 tunnels? That they've spent quite a lot of money before Honda decided to retire?

[SGWilko]

Didn't Wurz say Brawn's car was probably the most expensive one ever built in f1? That they've started working very early on it? That they've used up to 3 tunnels? That they've spent quite a lot of money before Honda decided to retire?

Isn't that the point? Now Honda are gone, so is the resource and gobfuls of cash. Brawn/MGP are a smaller team now, or certainly were until the Merc tie up.

I am sure they will come good in time.

[Saint Devote]

Gosh!! After winning the WDC one year, now after just one race, "he don't stand out no more". :(

Oh! ye of little faith. Let the flame shine brightly, let the Bunsen conquer all, so that he standeth from the top of the podium once again!!

In 2009 driving the Brawn-Ilien V8 he won the championship :D He is one of the best drivers and one of only four world champions on the grid - an elite place indeed.

But who is the best driver in F1 - its Alonso. He IS the Schumacher Slayer! And since 2005 has been the best driver in F1.

I reckon he is the driver most likely to become 2010 world champion.

[Big Ben]

Yes but thats a totally different year. We are discussing the development of the 2010 car not the 2009. Honda were not funding development for this seasons car. :)

My bad then. I didn't get what you were saying.

[Valve Bounce]

In 2009 driving the Brawn-Ilien V8 he won the championship :D He is one of the best drivers and one of only four world champions on the grid - an elite place indeed.

But who is the best driver in F1 - its Alonso. He IS the Schumacher Slayer! And since 2005 has been the best driver in F1.

I reckon he is the driver most likely to become 2010 world champion.

And that's why a rookie kicked his ass, right?

One race, one race, and poor Bunsen is dropped for the guy who had his ass kicked by Lewis Hamilton. Some Poms are real quick to jump ship, aren't they!!

[Garry Walker]

You mean aside from Alonso himself?

One name: ALAIN PROST

Hamilton knew that he was Dennis' "boy". Do you recall the "incident" - Hamilton causing problems in the pits in 2007? Hamilton only this year stated that he regretted it.

The proof is there and the history exists - naturally YOU could declare that Prost and Alonso are liars........

It was Ron Dennis' way and especially Alonso, when he left his "home" at Renault he correctly expected to be treated as the Schumacher slayer and twice world champion that he is.

Instead he was the usurper.
There is no proof, there are only opinions. Alonso has shown himself to be an emotional idiot many times in his career, that time no exception. Prost on the other hand (I dont even know what quotes of him you are referring to, surely you will be able to provide them here) has no access to McLaren and his opinion is worth no more than anyone elses. It is like Eddie jordan saying 1000 things, getting one of them right and then being so proud of that.

Alonso and Hamilton were given equal treatment, that is what bothered Alonso - he wanted to be the clear nr.1 and he actually would have been that if he had been clearly faster than Hamilton, but what happened is that Hamilton proven himself to be marginally faster than Alonso.



You spin the situation or you really are ignorant about what happens?

Alonso will go with the team strategy unless he reads things differently and as in Japan assumed command of his strategy and won iin a car that was also not supposed to.

You still have no explained what was so wonderful what he did at Japan, go on explain. What strategical decisions did he make?

As for going with team strategy, the strategy they picked at Singapore was so unbeliveably idiotic that no one sane would accept that as the best strategy. Yet Alonso went with it.



Mclaren will NOT allow that with Hamilton - the radio communication is always that of Hamilton obeying not commanding. Do you have 100% access to McLaren team radio?
Can you provide examples of what you are saying here?



Fernando Alonso unlike Hamilton has moral courage. He had the courage to stand by his friend Flavio Briatore in the face of all the world.
Yeah, but the fact remains that Flavios acts were that of a very dishonest person. I would not like to have such friends.



Spoilt children seldom do.You cant get more spoilt that Alonso, the guy who threw tantrums because his teammate was faster than him.



How many other times have the FIA needed to police a garage to ensure fair play?

How about the mysterious tyre-pressure changes that led to the FIA putting a steward in the Mclaren garage?

How about the fact that Hamilton recieved no meaningful sanction by the team for his actions in Budapest?

Now, obviously a team wouldn't broadcast such underhand tactics to the world, but nevermind that as Mclaren, I keep forgetting, are above such things.

This is Mclaren we are talking about, after all, a by-word for integrity and honesty, certainly not a place were anything untoward would ever happen.

At least it is if, like Henners, you actually haven't been watching F1 these past three years. So you have no actual proof. Good.

What sanctions should the team have put on Hamilton for that? Banned him for one race? Yeah, good one.

[ratonmacias]

if you read Jo Ramirez´s book he states clearly that Ron Dennis likes to have a driver he loves as if it were his kid and that the last ones were Senna, Hakkinen and Raikkonen its an old book 2005 or 2006 so lewis isnt mentioned. he also states that honda started clearly favoring Senna giving him the updates first and at some points senna had 30 or so honda guys while prost had 10 to 12

[SGWilko]

if you read Jo Ramirez´s book he states clearly that Ron Dennis likes to have a driver he loves as if it were his kid and that the last ones were Senna, Hakkinen and Raikkonen its an old book 2005 or 2006 so lewis isnt mentioned. he also states that honda started clearly favoring Senna giving him the updates first and at some points senna had 30 or so honda guys while prost had 10 to 12

Interesting about the Honda comment. There was, many moons ago, a 30 mins or so program on the box about Senna at McLaren in 1993. This is when they were running the Ford as a customer.

Ayrton went out in the car, came back in, and told the Ford guys there was a strange noise and they must change the engine. They wouldn't have it until he threw a wobbly. They changed the engine, took the old one apart, and found a fault that would have led to a failure.

The man was amazing........

[Sonic]

Interesting about the Honda comment. There was, many moons ago, a 30 mins or so program on the box about Senna at McLaren in 1993. This is when they were running the Ford as a customer.

Ayrton went out in the car, came back in, and told the Ford guys there was a strange noise and they must change the engine. They wouldn't have it until he threw a wobbly. They changed the engine, took the old one apart, and found a fault that would have led to a failure.

The man was amazing........

And to swing this full circle back to schumi; according to Steady Eddie Irvine MS is extreemly sensitive to engines ans will surely be a great help in developing fuel maps etc that conserve the jungle juice whilst still pumping out 750 odd BHP.

[F1boat]

Note quite the clear evidence I was after, but if that's your best shot, tally ho.

Now, liken Hamilton overtaking Alonso in Hungary qually to this little tale;



http://www.autosport.com/features/article.php/id/2689

It is called competive nature.

what a great story is the one of Webber and Nico.

So you have no actual proof. Good.


I have all the proof of Mclaren being liars that I need, thanks.

Don't tell me you haven't been watching F1 either these past three years.



What sanctions should the team have put on Hamilton for that? Banned him for one race? Yeah, good one.

Well, since kicking the crap out of the little cxxt would have been frowned on, then that would have been a decent option.

By doing feck all, Mclaren confirmed to the world that they believe in underhand behaviour from their favoured son.

And there is plenty of proof of that.