Will SchM succeed in his comeback?

[Malbec]

As for going with team strategy, the strategy they picked at Singapore was so unbeliveably idiotic that no one sane would accept that as the best strategy. Yet Alonso went with it.

I completely disagree, Alonso's strategy in Singapore made perfect sense if (and only if) he had been told that there would be a safety car the lap he came in for a ridiculously early pitstop.

In other words unless he'd dropped several million IQ points that day he was in on the Piquet job. He's about the only guy in the team aside from his engineer that would have needed to know about it in order to go along with the pitstop strategy.

[Malbec]

if you read Jo Ramirez´s book he states clearly that Ron Dennis likes to have a driver he loves as if it were his kid and that the last ones were Senna, Hakkinen and Raikkonen its an old book 2005 or 2006 so lewis isnt mentioned. he also states that honda started clearly favoring Senna giving him the updates first and at some points senna had 30 or so honda guys while prost had 10 to 12

Regarding Prost and Senna, I believe its no secret that McLaren valued both equally but Honda were utterly in love with Senna. It says a lot that Senna was rung up by Mr Honda himself the day their board decided to pull out of F1, Ron Dennis was told three months later.

Getting out of sequence on a new road course, the first night-race as well, when you are starting at the back of the grid in a fast car (Alonso was on for a top three qualifying until his gearbox went awol) is not as stupid as some would like to believe.

In fact, the only 'idiotic' thing about the strategy is the people who don't understand strategy and claim it was an idiotic strategy.

Roger Penske and Tim Cindric were always willing to play the off-sequence pit strategy in CART, ChampCar and IndyCar.

Selling an unusual strategy to Fernando on the Saturday night/Sunday morning of the Singapore GP would not have been too difficult. A normal strategy was going to do feck all for him anyway.

[Malbec]

Getting out of sequence on a new road course, the first night-race as well, when you are starting at the back of the grid in a fast car (Alonso was on for a top three qualifying until his gearbox went awol) is not as stupid as some would like to believe.

In fact, the only 'idiotic' thing about the strategy is the people who don't understand strategy and claim it was an idiotic strategy.

Roger Penske and Tim Cindric were always willing to play the off-sequence pit strategy in CART, ChampCar and IndyCar.

Selling an unusual strategy to Fernando on the Saturday night/Sunday morning of the Singapore GP would not have been too difficult. A normal strategy was going to do feck all for him anyway.

Yet it is convention that on a track where overtaking was clearly going to be difficult if not impossible, a fast car stuck unnaturally far back would benefit more by being fuelled to the brim and pitting as late as possible.

Even by the standards of short fuelling Alonso was ridiculously short fuelled, there HAD to be a safety car in order for him to not end up being at the back of the pack when the pitstops all sorted themselves out, how convenient that Piquet happened to go out the lap Alonso went in.... How interesting that the investigation of the whole incident didn't want to explore exactly why car number 1 in that team decided to go with that particular strategy....

Yet it is convention that on a track where overtaking was clearly going to be difficult if not impossible, a fast car stuck unnaturally far back would benefit more by being fuelled to the brim and pitting as late as possible.

No it wouldn't, as it would be stuck behind slower cars and unable to pass because of its higher fuel load, negating any speed advantage.

At best, Alonso could have hoped for an 8th place with that kind of strategy.

Short-fuelled would mean that the car would be in clean air and no traffic but still on the lead lap, a technique often employed in IndyCar.

It would always need a safety car for the strategy to work, but the chances of a safety car were higher than normal given that it was a street circuit, a night race and a new track.

To that extent, it was a plausible strategy to a driver whose weekend had otherwise just gone down the pan.

That Renault, or rather Flavio, Pat and Piquet, were planning on creating a safety car situation does not mean that it was an implausible strategy without knowledge of the plan.

[Retro Formula 1]

That's a fair point I suppose but is stretching it a little to think there wasn't a nudge and a wink as well.

"Trust me Alonso, I've checked my Horoscope and it says we will have a safety car around lap 14".

I guess it's all supposition and these things tend to stay buried but the jury is out on exactly what was known to Alonso. All we do know is that one driver and the top top people in the team were rotten cheats of the worse order. At the moment though, we must give Senor Alonso the benefit of the doubt.

[ioan]

I'd love to know what you think you see when you watch a grand prix. Its almost as though the last 3 years do not exist. Alonso has not shown the superiority over the likes of Vettel and particularly Hamilton to which you claim here.

As much as it pains me I have to agree with this.

[truefan72]

He has not?

His victory at Suzuka in 2008 was a masterpiece.

what victory in suzuka?

they were racing in Fuji in 2008 and Alonso was far from spectacular in that race. taking advantage of a first lap fracas that saw the 3 cars who qualified ahead of him involved and then driving an unspectacular race.
hardly a legendary race imo

Alonso is an awesome driver and being a triple WDC he deserves alot of respect, but he is not Jesus Christ. :)

Either you can't count or he is indeed a miracle worker.

[truefan72]

I totally agree and its a credit that they are where they are with limited resources compared with the top 3 teams. Mercedes spent hundreds of millions building facilities at Woking and it took a couple of years before this investment started having an advantage on the team. Brawn collaborated with Merc fairly late last year, so I get the impression the development up until November had been done on a fraction of the budget of say Ferrari and Mclaren.

Schuey has come back and will be an asset as far as input in developing this seasons car, but we may not see the rewards until late into this season. Nobody really expects Schuey to win the championship in his return season, but with so much media hype, I feel this season will be used to get back into the groove, and I just hope he sticks around for a second season. Never in his career has he committed to a 3 year contract, and many feel its just his way of diverting attention later in the year when contracts are the subject on every journalists lips. Fingers crossed he'll be around until he is 44.. :)

i think Mercedes will invest wisely in the team and I expect an accelerated pace of improvement. over the year. They might not be challenging for the WDC this year but they might be in the hunt for a top 3 WCC and in 2011 with a year of Mercedes control and input, I fully expect that car to be very very competitive.

I still think it will win 1 or 2 races this year of which I think MSC will win one and Nico the other.

[truefan72]

Didn't Wurz say Brawn's car was probably the most expensive one ever built in f1? That they've started working very early on it? That they've used up to 3 tunnels? That they've spent quite a lot of money before Honda decided to retire?

I'm pretty sure Honda were not simultaneously building a 2009 and 2010 car.
The extra weight and larger fuel tank and the changes in regs have essentially forced the teams to make some significant alterations to the 2010 car so it might seem reasonable that Brawn, who struggled to keep up in the latter stages of 2009 ( but still a strong car) would struggle to match the pace of development by the likes of RBR, Mercedes and Ferrari. Now Mercedes owned,. we can expect to see some solid improvements.

[Malbec]

No it wouldn't, as it would be stuck behind slower cars and unable to pass because of its higher fuel load, negating any speed advantage.

Thats the whole point, if such fast cars are going to start behind slower cars then they would leap ahead of them by pitting far far later without needing to overtake them. Take any top driver who has started at the back end of the grid and you'll find that in nearly all cases they've gone for the heavy option. As I said, its convention.


At best, Alonso could have hoped for an 8th place with that kind of strategy.

Short-fuelled would mean that the car would be in clean air and no traffic but still on the lead lap, a technique often employed in IndyCar.

Wrong, in overtaking hell Singapore it would have meant he would have been kept behind slower cars on a heavier fuel load meaning he would lose his speed advantage AND pit earlier than them. Chances were that Alonso would actually have lost places by pitting as early as he did had there been no safety car incident.

If you don't believe me remember what happened when lightly fuelled cars got caught behind Trulli who was on an extremely heavy fuel load. They had their races ruined except for Rosberg who was lucky to get past.


It would always need a safety car for the strategy to work, but the chances of a safety car were higher than normal given that it was a street circuit, a night race and a new track.

True.


To that extent, it was a plausible strategy to a driver whose weekend had otherwise just gone down the pan.

That Renault, or rather Flavio, Pat and Piquet, were planning on creating a safety car situation does not mean that it was an implausible strategy without knowledge of the plan.

You assume that Alonso and his engineer would have gone for such a gamble without questioning it when he had a history of heavy fuelling when qualifying low down the field. Interesting. I thought Alonso was renowned not only for being intelligent but also being prepared to go against his team's advice?

Now tell me, had the situation been reversed and Hamilton had won an unlikely victory after Kovalainen had a rather well timed crash would you honestly be as charitable to Lewis?

[Malbec]

Now Mercedes owned,. we can expect to see some solid improvements.

I don't believe so I'm afraid. Despite Honda's investment into the team the Brackley team still does not have the resources of McLaren or Ferrari. Mercedes has not invested much money into the project beyond buying the team, itself an astonishing bargain given how much Honda had spent over the years. By their own admission they have slashed their F1 spending to a quarter of what it used to be, and that is when they merely had to supply engines to McLaren. The Brackley team is going to have to develop their car on their own with financial and R/D resources that are not going to be on a par with what they had during the Honda days. I think Ross will manage his resources well but he can't perform miracles.

[Valve Bounce]

Exactly but no matter who we follow in this sport, we all can recognise talent to some degree. You and I have differing opinions but we both know Hamilton and Vettel are not the bewildered, simpleton's SD seems to paint them as. No other driver on the grid can make recommendations over the radio to his team other than the Spaniard apparently.. Alonso is an awesome driver and being a double WDC he deserves alot of respect, but he is not Jesus Christ. :)

Not true!! After he qualified that Minardi at Albert Park, there were numerous reported sightings that evening of Fernando walking across the lake.

[Big Ben]

I'm pretty sure Honda were not simultaneously building a 2009 and 2010 car.
The extra weight and larger fuel tank and the changes in regs have essentially forced the teams to make some significant alterations to the 2010 car so it might seem reasonable that Brawn, who struggled to keep up in the latter stages of 2009 ( but still a strong car) would struggle to match the pace of development by the likes of RBR, Mercedes and Ferrari. Now Mercedes owned,. we can expect to see some solid improvements.

As I'm pretty sure you didn't read the whole thread as I admitted I did't understand what he was saying.

[SGWilko]

Short-fuelled would mean that the car would be in clean air and no traffic but still on the lead lap, a technique often employed in IndyCar.

Short fuelled would mean he would have to overtake a lot of slower cars, make up many many places before making his ridiculously early pit stop. If not, he'll just come straight back out behind the cars he had just passed.

[SGWilko]

a technique often employed in IndyCar.


And how many 'guaranteed' yellows does the average Amayreecan race have to 'spice' up the show exactly?

[SGWilko]

I have all the proof of Mclaren being liars that I need, thanks.


That's no good if you can't articulate the facts in order to shore up your accusations.

[Valve Bounce]

I know I just love an argument, but does anyone think SchM will improve on his Bahrain finish this weekend?

[ArrowsFA1]

I know I just love an argument, but does anyone think SchM will improve on his Bahrain finish this weekend?
Given that Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren seem to have the edge over Mercedes at the moment, and if they're all reliable, then I think not.

[truefan72]

As I'm pretty sure you didn't read the whole thread as I admitted I did't understand what he was saying.

my post was not an indictment or an attack against you neither was it set up to refute anything you were saying. I thought it was a good post but needed context in terms of Brawns involvement vis-avis the 2010 season.

[Big Ben]

Given that Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren seem to have the edge over Mercedes at the moment, and if they're all reliable, then I think not.

I think improvement in his case would be to beat his team mate. Reasonable people would take in consideration the fact that other cars are just faster. No one would expect him to beat Ferrari and Red Bull. Let's not get him off the hook so easily. :P

[slorydn1]

Thats my prediction also. I think Schuey may have been under the impression the car would be alot more competitive, but we all know he is one of the best at giving feedback. I think he'll have 92 victories on his all time record at least, by the end of this season.. :)

I'm probably over optimistic, but I give Shumi a chance at as many as 3 race wins this year:

1) Monte Carlo (a real drivers track)
2) Spa (no Kimi to worry about)
3) Imola (much to the dismay of the tifosi,, I'm afraid)

[slorydn1]

Imola isn't on the calendar but I realise you meant Monza. :)


Yep...that's what I meant...hadn't had my morning coffee yet :beer:

[555-04Q2]

I don't see Schumi getting a win this year. I hope I am very wrong though!

[Valve Bounce]

I don't see Schumi getting a win this year. I hope I am very wrong though!

Wait till we get a wet race - then there's every chance.

[Retro Formula 1]

I think with no team orders, he will struggle against Nico who I consider a good mid-field runner.

In his youth, I fully appreciate that Schumacher was the best around, although some might argue the field was not as strong as other times. I do believe that his achievements were complimented by the dominance at times of the Ferrari and status he had within the Ferrari team.

It would be great to be wrong in this and see him conquer against a strong field but anyone with delusion of Schumacher performing at the level of Alonso or Hamilton may be sadly mistaken and I imagine the more extreem fans will be hunting for excuses and blaming the car before long.

[ArrowsFA1]

Here's what the man himself thinks:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82364

[Big Ben]

So the cars are less effort to drive now than they were in 2006 when they were packed with driver aids and more aero devices? I remember in 2008 when traction control was banned and the drivers said it was alot more effort cornering because the cars were alot more twitchy and less forgiving. There was alot of talk about the onboard footage and how the drivers seemed to be actually driving the cars post 2007 and drivers being required to do alot more work inside the cockpit.

I'm sure Michael knows what he is talking about and that begs the question, have the cars got easier to drive in the last 2 years? :)

As I understand it he says the car require less physical effort. I figure because they are slower the body has to support less in corners... or something like that... w(ho)tf knows?

[jens]

Oh dear, during the last week so much material has been added to this thread that it would take an incredible effort to read it all through. Probably a sign of still being the most popular driver, which the results of a recent LG survey indicated? :p :

[ratonmacias]

Oh dear, during the last week so much material has been added to this thread that it would take an incredible effort to read it all through. Probably a sign of still being the most popular driver, which the results of a recent LG survey indicated? :p :

maybe the most criticised driver? and if you cared to read all the pages many of them are about alonso and lewis and the lovely 2007 soap opera

[Mia 01]

MS will get a win this year.
I´m a fan of Kimi. But when a couple of races has passed under the bridges, I´m sure he will score one win at least.

[jens]

maybe the most criticised driver?

Most criticized? Surely. Most popular ones are the most criticized ones as well. ;)

[F1boat]

I think improvement in his case would be to beat his team mate. Reasonable people would take in consideration the fact that other cars are just faster. No one would expect him to beat Ferrari and Red Bull. Let's not get him off the hook so easily. :P

He already bested one Red Bull in Bahrain :)

[ioan]

It would be great to be wrong in this and see him conquer against a strong field but anyone with delusion of Schumacher performing at the level of Alonso or Hamilton may be sadly mistaken and I imagine the more extreem fans will be hunting for excuses and blaming the car before long.

Huh?
I believe that you are deluded if you believe the Mercedes car is as fast as RedBull, Ferrari and McLaren.

[555-04Q2]

One thing I noticed after the first race was Schumi looked fresher than the other, much younger drivers. Seems like he is still as fit he was when he last raced.

[SGWilko]

One thing I noticed after the first race was Schumi looked fresher than the other, much younger drivers. Seems like he is still as fit he was when he last raced.

He ought to have gone to Specsavers though, given he ignored the red flags to set a quick time....... ;)

[Retro Formula 1]

Huh?
I believe that you are deluded if you believe the Mercedes car is as fast as RedBull, Ferrari and McLaren.

I thought the common mantra among Schumacher fans was his ability to win races in a car that wasn't as fast as others. The Mercedes is not exactly a shed and won last years championship. It also posted the 4th fastest time in practice so it's there or there abouts.

Saying that, I didn't mention the cars but the drivers and how they would perform. I think in his prime it would have been interesting but just feel the new top drivers will have the edge. Just an opinion and like I say I hope I am proved wrong as it would be great to see.

[F1boat]

The real MS time was 7th IMO. Ferrari and Vettel clearly didn't show their hand.

[555-04Q2]

He ought to have gone to Specsavers though, given he ignored the red flags to set a quick time....... ;)

His contact lenses fell out while he was driving :p :

[555-04Q2]

I thought the common mantra among Schumacher fans was his ability to win races in a car that wasn't as fast as others. The Mercedes is not exactly a shed and won last years championship. It also posted the 4th fastest time in practice so it's there or there abouts.

Saying that, I didn't mention the cars but the drivers and how they would perform. I think in his prime it would have been interesting but just feel the new top drivers will have the edge. Just an opinion and like I say I hope I am proved wrong as it would be great to see.

He's 41 now, not 25 anymore!

[Retro Formula 1]

Sorry fella but you can't deny he was one of the best of all time. I bet he will still give Rosberg a run for his money at 41.

[Valve Bounce]

Sorry fella but you can't deny he was one of the best of all time. I bet he will still give Rosberg a run for his money at 41.

I know SchM is very fit, but maybe he'll also give Rosberg a drive for his money as well.

[Robinho]

7 time world champ, arguably (one of) the best of all time, and current 3rd best German in F1

[Valve Bounce]

7 time world champ, arguably (one of) the best of all time, and current 3rd best German in F1

Early days!

[P3ws]

I think with no team orders, he will struggle against Nico who I consider a good mid-field runner.

In his youth, I fully appreciate that Schumacher was the best around, although some might argue the field was not as strong as other times. I do believe that his achievements were complimented by the dominance at times of the Ferrari and status he had within the Ferrari team.

It would be great to be wrong in this and see him conquer against a strong field but anyone with delusion of Schumacher performing at the level of Alonso or Hamilton may be sadly mistaken and I imagine the more extreem fans will be hunting for excuses and blaming the car before long.

No team orders and MS will have a drive for his money for the whole season. But since he is senior he had the good taste of changing garageplace at Bahrein when the team already have set everything up. Intimidation?
What a joke.

[ioan]

No team orders and MS will have a drive for his money for the whole season. But since he is senior he had the good taste of changing garageplace at Bahrein when the team already have set everything up. Intimidation?
What a joke.

And you signed up only to post this? What a joke.

[P3ws]

And you signed up only to post this? What a joke.

Took me some time to sign up. Have been looking for a forum since the former ended.

[P3ws]

Seems the truth hurts.

[Alfa Fan]

:confused:

[P3ws]

Fact is they changed spots in Bahrain, on request from MS himself. If that is not intimidating your teammate i don´t know what is.

And what the feck is wrong with trying to out-psyche a team-mate?

Happens every day, all the time.

Show me a driver who says he doesn't and I'll show you a liar.

[P3ws]

Im fine with the with it. And MS has the name to do just that swap them spots. But to do it in the first race?
Was he worried he could no match Nico, coz he did, almost.
And that is pretty impressive.

Instead he got that comment from Nico in response to his own blunder, or whatever you choose to call it.
Personally i think he is on the wrong road in his quest to beat his teammate. Nico is no Massa.

But i think MS got that figured out too by now.

[F1boat]

The real MS time was 7th IMO. Ferrari and Vettel clearly didn't show their hand.

as I said.

[Big Ben]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82459

it turns out other people are to blame.... well as long as we have some decent excuses... perhaps he´s run out of mind games and found a new hobby

[ioan]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82459

it turns out other people are to blame.... well as long as we have some decent excuses... perhaps he´s run out of mind games and found a new hobby

Or maybe Alonso blocked him?
You never got that far in your cognitive process, did you?!

[Valve Bounce]

I suppose Alonso was lucky he wasn't penalised. That would really have launched the Saint into orbit.

[Garry Walker]

dissapointing race to be honest, i was expecting a bit more. Okay, he was punted out by idiot alonso at start, but he should have been able to pass JA earlier.

[Dave B]

Far too early to tell, but it did seem as if the old chap had lost his nerve somewhat. From the onboards there were several opportunities to overtake Jamie which he simply passed up.

[Garry Walker]

Far too early to tell, but it did seem as if the old chap had lost his nerve somewhat. From the onboards there were several opportunities to overtake Jamie which he simply passed up.
Did you see the move he made on Jamie or were you asleep?

[ioan]

dissapointing race to be honest, i was expecting a bit more. Okay, he was punted out by idiot alonso at start, but he should have been able to pass JA earlier.

I was expecting a bit more too but he obviously needs some more time to get back some wheel to wheel experience, but he was doing OK at the end.

Wurz mentioned that Alguersuari was moving a lot under braking and it was better to keep clear of him.

[Dave B]

Did you see the move he made on Jamie or were you asleep?
Eventually, yes, but it should have been 15 laps earlier.

[ioan]

Far too early to tell, but it did seem as if the old chap had lost his nerve somewhat. From the onboards there were several opportunities to overtake Jamie which he simply passed up.

I bet you would have done better Dave, on you playstation wearing your favorite slippers and not risking to be blown off the track by Alguersuari's moves under braking.
Then again you would have fallen asleep before the end of tht race and missed MS' move. :D

[ioan]

I suppose Alonso was lucky he wasn't penalised. That would really have launched the Saint into orbit.

:rotflmao:

[F1boat]

Michael did very well in the end and salvaged a point, but he is rusty...

[Garry Walker]

Eventually, yes, but it should have been 15 laps earlier.

But it was an agressive move, so he wasnt lacking balls. 15 laps earlier? its not that easy to pass, as shown by hamilton vs jerk (alonso)

[F1boat]

Oh, Alonso did very well, like Imola 2005. Owned Lewy and Mark.

[Dave B]

I bet you would have done better Dave, on you playstation wearing your favorite slippers and not risking to be blown off the track by Alguersuari's moves under braking.
Then again you would have fallen asleep before the end of tht race and missed MS' move. :D
That's a weak argument, in fact it's no argument at all. I'm not paid to do the job, in the same way as I can recognise Cheryl Cole is a crap singer without having to prove I'm any better. Must try harder, ioan.

[Robinho]

MS is "just" one of the drivers these days. he's still good, very good, but he's currently not found that "thing" that made him stand out from the crowd. not sure if he's lost it or just not found it again yet.

[pino]

Very disappointing performance by Michael, yes it wasn't easy to pass, but he was on a Mercedes, against an average driver on a Toro Rosso.


Eventually, yes, but it should have been 15 laps earlier.

Exactly !

[donKey jote]

But it was an agressive move, so he wasnt lacking balls. 15 laps earlier? its not that easy to pass, as shown by hamilton vs jerk (alonso)

Alg went wide, otherwise it would have taken him even longer...

[ArrowsFA1]

MS is "just" one of the drivers these days. he's still good, very good, but he's currently not found that "thing" that made him stand out from the crowd. not sure if he's lost it or just not found it again yet.
The Mercedes is not the best car on the grid, and his team-mate is quicker and getting better results. It's not a situation MS is used to being in, particularly when compared with his heyday at Ferrari. Add to that the fact he's been away for a few years and what we're seeing is not too surprising. Whether he can find "it" again... :confused:

[Big Ben]

Or maybe Alonso blocked him?
You never got that far in your cognitive process, did you?!

It did. But then the race came and I've seen he's just not fast enough but of course now it's JA's fault.

[Shalafi]

MS is old, slow and overpaid. :)

[Ranger]

Underwhelming today. Needs to step it up.

[EuroTroll]

Underwhelming today. Needs to step it up.

Yeah!

[F1boat]

In the end he did very well against DLR. It is no coincidence that these guys, DLR and MSC, are rusty and have not raced since many years. They have forgotten the wheel to wheel battles. But in the end I am very happy that Michael got a point. Still, if you compare his performance to Alonso, he did not do well.

[Volky34]

Come on folks, he's only 3 points behind Vettel and in front of Webbo after Race 2. :) Who could've imagined that? :p

[F1boat]

Come on folks, he's only 3 points behind Vettel and in front of Webbo after Race 2. :) Who could've imagined that? :p

Ahah, too true. But maybe in the end class matters and Ferrari and McLaren are the classic teams...

[Mia 01]

Ahah, too true. But maybe in the end class matters and Ferrari and McLaren are the classic teams...

So thrue. MS has to step up and show us some little bit of his former greatness.

[jens]

It has been hard to recognize Schumacher in the beginning of this season. It looks like the case of his name simply popping up at the timing screens, because the driver on track looks too sluggish to be MS!

Anyway, MS may have a 3-y-deal, but I think that if he fails to beat Rosberg this year, he will bow out after 2010. Schumacher's self-pride is too high to be content with struggling forever.