Nice Wallpaper

[garyshell]

The IndyCar website has some new wallpaper up for this year. Whatever your opinion of the Dallara, there is a VERY cool "exploded" view of it on the site.

http://www.indycar.com/multimedia/content/34091-desktop-wallpapers/

http://www.indycar.com/var/assets_content/800x600_exploded.jpg

Gary

[Jag_Warrior]

You know, "exploded", it doesn't look (quite) as bad. If the IRL ever gets a new chassis, they should take all these old dogs to a landfill and explode the rest of them.

[Chris R]

awesome - this is the sort of stuff you need out there to demonstrate how cool these (Indycars in general, not necessarily the Dallara in particular) cars are... like the really high quality cut-aways you used to see in the 1980's....

[call_me_andrew]

The only good Dallara is an exploded Dallara!

[anthonyvop]

awesome - this is the sort of stuff you need out there to demonstrate how cool these (Indycars in general, not necessarily the Dallara in particular) cars are...
How cool is a 8 year old car with a 10 year old engine?

[Chamoo]

How cool is a 8 year old car with a 10 year old engine?

Cooler than a negative nancy who hangs around the forums.

[Chris R]

Cooler than a negative nancy who hangs around the forums.
x2

- c'mon all of the current formula cars more or less date to the advent of carbon fiber..... an exploded view of a March 87c doesn't look a whole bunch different than a Dallara or a new McLaren....

[NickFalzone]

Technically, the current Dallara and the current engine is not what we had 8-10 years ago. Both have had significant updates made in that time. Sure they're still a bit out of date, but the cars go fast (all things considered) and do so in a very safe manner. Postponing BOTH the chassis and engine to 2013 is a bit late imo, we need to have one or the other on track by then. But if they can somehow get 2-3 turbos running in the Dallaras in 2012, and the new chassis(s) by 2013, I would be OK with that.

[harvick#1]

You know, "exploded", it doesn't look (quite) as bad. If the IRL ever gets a new chassis, they should take all these old dogs to a landfill and explode the rest of them.

:laugh: :up:

[garyshell]

How cool is a 8 year old car with a 10 year old engine?

Pretty damn cool, even now. Is it as cool as we'd like? Of course not. But is it still cool? It sure as hell is.

Gary

[anthonyvop]

Cooler than a negative nancy who hangs around the forums.

You want to hear from only IRL cheerleaders and that everything is just never ending rainbows and unicorns in Indy Car land may i suggest going over to .....

If you think that I am the only one who believes that the ICS has major problems then you need to talk to the other 99% of the television viewing public.

It is a cool pic though.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

You want to hear from only IRL cheerleaders and that everything is just never ending rainbows and unicorns in Indy Car land may i suggest going over to .....

If you think that I am the only one who believes that the ICS has major problems then you need to talk to the other 99% of the television viewing public.

It is a cool pic though.

Just reading some of your past posts here and it seems no one takes as much joy in reporting the bad things happening in the IICS as you do. We all know there are things that need to be addressed. Is it a perfect series ? No. Is it close to being a perfect series ? No. But even with all its imperfections, its all we open wheel fans have and we love hearing the good things about the series. Who can blame us ? Call me a cheerleader ? Hell yes I'm a cheerleader if that means I don't celebrate when bad things happen to IndyCar like you do.

I mean, seriously, some graphic arts guy/gal took the time to make a really cool IndyCar wallpaper and leave it to you to throw a bucket of cold water on it with your snide remarks. If I want that kind of reading I would go to the old c car fanatics forum. Entertaining reading there.

[anthonyvop]

Just reading some of your past posts here and it seems no one takes as much joy in reporting the bad things happening in the IICS as you do.


You are so wrong. I am mad when I comment on bad things. I am livid at what these twits have done to what was once my favorite racing series.

I hate that their are lemmings who refuse to acknowledge that things are bad and applaud every move the ICS makes without question.

[garyshell]

You want to hear from only IRL cheerleaders and that everything is just never ending rainbows and unicorns in Indy Car land may i suggest going over to .....

If you think that I am the only one who believes that the ICS has major problems then you need to talk to the other 99% of the television viewing public.

It is a cool pic though.


Just reading some of your past posts here and it seems no one takes as much joy in reporting the bad things happening in the IICS as you do.


You are so wrong. I am mad when I comment on bad things.

As witnessed by your original quote above, you are mad even when you comment on things you seem to like. You say the picture is cool but only after taking your usual pot shot at the IRL. And then you wonder why folks like ChicagocrewIRL say what they do about you. We get it, you hate the everything about the IRL. You are sounding a bit like the Monty Python skit: "The record's stuck. The record's stuck. The record's stuck. The record's stuck..."

Gary

[beachbum]

If I want that kind of reading I would go to the old c car fanatics forum. Entertaining reading there.From time to time, I visit various blogs, twitters, and forums just for entertainment because they are so "out there". That forum is one. It still exists (under a new name) and remains filled with a small group of angry people who haven't figured out that Francisco Franco is still dead. A few have wandered into other forums, randomly distributing their vitriol. They don't seem to grasp that such juvenile anger and hate just isn't accepted with open arms in the general community like it it is in their favorite little cliche. Instead of being cheered on by like minded (and IMHO small minded) people, they are often criticized for their extreme views. They seem truly shocked that some people really do appreciate what we have now.

Racing is never as good as can be imagined, nor was it ever as good as we remember. But motor racing of any type still sits at the top of my sports list. If you don't like some type of racing, go do / watch something else and stop pi**ing in our Cheerios.

By the way, seriously cool picture.

[anthonyvop]

The record's stuck. The record's stuck. The record's stuck..."

Gary


Yes I do sound like that.........Could it be because the IRL keeps on doing the same stupid things?

[BDunnell]

I am livid at what these twits have done to what was once my favorite racing series.

Do be careful about getting livid. It can have an adverse effect on one's health.

[Alfa Fan]

Yes I do sound like that.........Could it be because the IRL keeps on doing the same stupid things?
.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Yes I do sound like that.........Could it be because the IRL keeps on doing the same stupid things?

So you seem to imply that the series is STILL headed in the wrong direction ? You see absolutely no positives this year ? That's why you continue to harp on the negatives ? Is your hatred and angst so intense as to blind you to any positives that have occurred this season ? You're so laser beam focused on finding and assigning fault that you fail to see the many great things that have happened this season and last. It's sad and I wonder why you just don't confine yourself to that wonderfully supportive fringe group that populates the c-car fanatics forum. You are a hero there.

[anthonyvop]

So you seem to imply that the series is STILL headed in the wrong direction ? You see absolutely no positives this year ? That's why you continue to harp on the negatives ? Is your hatred and angst so intense as to blind you to any positives that have occurred this season ? You're so laser beam focused on finding and assigning fault that you fail to see the many great things that have happened this season and last. It's sad and I wonder why you just don't confine yourself to that wonderfully supportive fringe group that populates the c-car fanatics forum. You are a hero there.

While there have been some positives, Izod for one, I see nothing now or one the planning board that will lift the ICS from infomercial TV ratings and Mediocre attendance.

Do you? If so, enlighten me.

[F1boat]

Cooler than a negative nancy who hangs around the forums.

x3

[gofastandwynn]

You want to hear from only IRL cheerleaders and that everything is just never ending rainbows and unicorns in Indy Car land may i suggest going over to .....

If you think that I am the only one who believes that the ICS has major problems then you need to talk to the other 99% of the television viewing public.

It is a cool pic though.

No, we just don't go out of our way to bring up the problems and throw them in the faces of people who are enjoying life. You are like one of those people who go around telling kids that someday the earth will be destroyed. Will it? Yes, but do you have to be nothing but a buzz kill for them?

[anthonyvop]

No, we just don't go out of our way to bring up the problems and throw them in the faces of people who are enjoying life. You are like one of those people who go around telling kids that someday the earth will be destroyed. Will it? Yes, but do you have to be nothing but a buzz kill for them?

Excuse me.....i thought this was a motosports message board where people could express their thought, ideas and comments.

From now on I will only post Happy, Happy, Joy, joy stuff.

The Indy Car series is the greatest sporting series in the World.

Their TV ratings are better than the Super bowl, Olympics and World Cup combined.

Every race for the next 10 years is Sold Out.

So many sponsors are trying to jump on the bandwagon they are turning them away

The American fans are embracing all the foreign drivers like they are family.

The Dallara is considered the most beautiful automotive design ever.

The Honda motor sounds as if Mozart, The Beatles and Frank Sinatra combined on a song.

The NASCAR BOD are convening later this week to discuss the ceasing the rest of this years schedule due to the fact that all their fans switched to Indy Cars.

There.......You happy now?

[gofastandwynn]

Excuse me.....i thought this was a motosports message board where people could express their thought, ideas and comments.

From now on I will only post Happy, Happy, Joy, joy stuff.

The Indy Car series is the greatest sporting series in the World.

Their TV ratings are better than the Super bowl, Olympics and World Cup combined.

Every race for the next 10 years is Sold Out.

So many sponsors are trying to jump on the bandwagon they are turning them away

The American fans are embracing all the foreign drivers like they are family.

The Dallara is considered the most beautiful automotive design ever.

The Honda motor sounds as if Mozart, The Beatles and Frank Sinatra combined on a song.

The NASCAR BOD are convening later this week to discuss the ceasing the rest of this years schedule due to the fact that all their fans switched to Indy Cars.

There.......You happy now?

So you went from a sad tool to a happy tool?

There are problems with the series. Everybody here knows there are problems with the series. But we don't go out of our way bring them up in every single post like a pathetic ccf poster no matter what the topic is.

What are you plans to "lift the ICS from infomercial TV ratings and Mediocre attendance?" You seem to ask others yet never give them yourself.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Tony, I am a honest critic. I used to rip the IRL and Champ Car equally and I say things are done right only when I think they are done right. No one is calling me a wet blanket. You on the other hand ARE a wet blanket. You haven't like ANYTHING in the last year or so, but you keep coming around to be the buzz kill. All power to you, but me thinks you doth protest to much. We know what you are....

[garyshell]

What are you plans to "lift the ICS from infomercial TV ratings and Mediocre attendance?" You seem to ask others yet never give them yourself.

Good luck with that.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

So you went from a sad tool to a happy tool?

There are problems with the series. Everybody here knows there are problems with the series. But we don't go out of our way bring them up in every single post like a pathetic ccf poster no matter what the topic is.

What are you plans to "lift the ICS from infomercial TV ratings and Mediocre attendance?" You seem to ask others yet never give them yourself.

He, like a few others seems to have no end of joy pointing out what is wrong, without once saying what is right or what could be done right in a realistic fashion. It isn't in his MO..

[anthonyvop]

So you went from a sad tool to a happy tool?

There are problems with the series. Everybody here knows there are problems with the series. But we don't go out of our way bring them up in every single post like a pathetic ccf poster no matter what the topic is.

What are you plans to "lift the ICS from infomercial TV ratings and Mediocre attendance?" You seem to ask others yet never give them yourself.

Ok

First off Change the name to anything that doesn't have the name "Indy" in it. It makes the rest of the series appear as secondary to the one big event.

2nd. Open up the series to other cars like the Lotus and Panoz and use an equivalency formula. Same with motors.

PR Marketing dept needs a total revamp.
Initiate a plan in which the series is the be all to end all.
No driver, while under contract, should be allowed to state they want to go to NASCAR or F1.
If they do leave then make it a one way trip. To the casual race fan the defending champion is a driver who couldn't hack it in NASCAR!
Severely penalize any driver who criticizes the series.
Promote drivers who actually win or show a talent.

I have a long list for this and I don't feel like typing it all out right now.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

First off Change the name to anything that doesn't have the name "Indy" in it. It makes the rest of the series appear as secondary to the one big event.

What makes you so anti-Indy ? I've said many times before, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this sentiment, it is because of Indy and love of the 500 and the Speedway alone, that I am an open wheel fan. If Champ Car had the Indy 500, I would have been a stalwart Champ Car fan. It didn't have Indy, and because it didn't have Indy, it died.

[anthonyvop]

What makes you so anti-Indy ? I've said many times before, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this sentiment, it is because of Indy and love of the 500 and the Speedway alone, that I am an open wheel fan. If Champ Car had the Indy 500, I would have been a stalwart Champ Car fan. It didn't have Indy, and because it didn't have Indy, it died.

Here is the questions you need to ask.

If they drop they "Indy" from the name of the series would it hurt the Indy 500 at all? I think most would agree it wouldn't.
Would it hurt the rest of the series? No reason to believe it would.
Would it help the rest of the series? I believe so.

[chuck34]

Here is the questions you need to ask.

If they drop they "Indy" from the name of the series would it hurt the Indy 500 at all? I think most would agree it wouldn't.
Would it hurt the rest of the series? No reason to believe it would.
Would it help the rest of the series? I believe so.

Why? What evidence do you have that the name "Indy" is hurting other races? What evidence do you have that dropping the name "Indy" would help the rest of the series?

These cars have always been known as IndyCars from as far back as anyone can remember pretty much. And that includes the hey day of CART. Also back in the hey day of CART, many of the races had Indy in the name. It goes on and on. I can't believe that anyone back in the early 90's would have said that the name "Indy" was hurting the series.

In fact, I think the name "Indy" helps the series and other races. The fact is that the Indy 500 is still the biggest name in racing. So some people are going to want to see the cars that race at the 500 race at Kentucky, or St. Pete, or where ever.

Dropping the name "Indy" won't do anything except confuse some of the more casual fans. "You mean these 'formula car' thingies run at the Indy 500? Why don't they just say that?"

Do you honestly think that people are turned away from going to the races, or watching on TV because there is some "bad mojo" associated with "Indy"?

[garyshell]

Here is the questions you need to ask.

If they drop they "Indy" from the name of the series would it hurt the Indy 500 at all? I think most would agree it wouldn't.
Would it hurt the rest of the series? No reason to believe it would.
Would it help the rest of the series? I believe so.


How could it help the series to loose its instant name recognition? Weren't you complaining that no one knows about the series, and yet you want to take away the one thing that even the uninterested instantly recognize? Good luck getting that idea to fly with the Madison Ave. folks.

I think there is a very big reason to think it would hurt and anxiously await an explanation of how it could help.

Gary

[beachbum]

Why? What evidence do you have that the name "Indy" is hurting other races? What evidence do you have that dropping the name "Indy" would help the rest of the series?

These cars have always been known as IndyCars from as far back as anyone can remember pretty much. And that includes the hey day of CART. Also back in the hey day of CART, many of the races had Indy in the name. It goes on and on. I can't believe that anyone back in the early 90's would have said that the name "Indy" was hurting the series.

In fact, I think the name "Indy" helps the series and other races. The fact is that the Indy 500 is still the biggest name in racing. So some people are going to want to see the cars that race at the 500 race at Kentucky, or St. Pete, or where ever.

Dropping the name "Indy" won't do anything except confuse some of the more casual fans. "You mean these 'formula car' thingies run at the Indy 500? Why don't they just say that?"

Do you honestly think that people are turned away from going to the races, or watching on TV because there is some "bad mojo" associated with "Indy"?The term "Indy car" has been around for a very long time as well as "Championship" or "Champ Car" (or even "Big cars") before that. While the term has been applied to cars primarily designed for the Indy 500, they have never been exclusive to the track. How that term can be detrimental to the series is a mystery to me.

The terms are bit like "Kleenex" or "Band Aid" in that they are both a brand name and a generic name for a type of product. Fiddling with the name would be like Kleenex changing their name to Kimberly-Clark Tissues. Indy Car, like Kleenex, has brand recognition which has significant value. Is an F1 car racing at a vintage event still an F1 car? Of course it is.

Frankly, I take many of the "suggestions" for improvements on forums with a large grain of salt as many come from posters with obvious agendas. Not everyone posting here seems interested in Indy Car racing surviving. Some still seem angry that the "other" series imploded.

[Lousada]

Is an F1 car racing at a vintage event still an F1 car? Of course it is.

I agree with everything you say. Except, an F1 car is called an F1 car because it is build to Formula 1 regulations. Not because it races in the Formula 1 championship.

[anthonyvop]

And please remember that before the split the cars were called "Champ Cars"

[chuck34]

And please remember that before the split the cars were called "Champ Cars"

No. Before the split they were called IndyCars and sometimes Champ Cars. But mostly IndyCars. Along with race names like the Molson Indy at Toronto, etc.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

And please remember that before the split the cars were called "Champ Cars"

WRONG....

From Wikipedia: Article name "The History of the IndyCar name"

"Beginning in 1980, the term Indy car was often used to describe the race cars in the events sanctioned by CART, which had become the dominant governing body for open-wheel racing in the United States. The Indianapolis 500, however, remained sanctioned by USAC. CART recognized the Indy 500 on its schedule, and awarded points for finishers in the race from 1980–1995 despite not sanctioning it. The two entities operated separately, but utilized the same equipment.

In 1992, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway registered the IndyCar trademark with the United States Patent and Trademark Office and licensed it to CART, which renamed its championship the IndyCar World Series. All references to the name "CART" were decidedly prohibited, as the series sought to eliminate perceived confusion from casual fans with the term kart."

FURTHERMORE.....
"In 1996 season, the IndyCar mark was the subject of a fierce legal battle. Prior to the 1996 season, Indianapolis Motor Speedway President Tony George had created his own national championship racing series, the Indy Racing League. In March 1996, CART filed a lawsuit against the Indianapolis Motor Speedway in an effort to protect their license to the IndyCar mark which the Indianapolis Motor Speedway had attempted to terminate. In April, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway filed a countersuit against CART to prevent them from further use of the mark. Eventually a settlement was reached in which CART agreed to give up the use of the IndyCar mark following the 1996 season and the IRL could not use the name before the end of the 2002 season."

It seems the IndyCar name was a valuable asset during the split. I would argue it continues to be a valuable asset.

[chuck34]

And please remember that before the split the cars were called "Champ Cars"

A few examples.

PC game from 1993
http://www.magisterrex.com/proddetail.asp?prod=WEBIPC330

A ticket from the 1990 Molson Indy Toronto
http://cgi.ebay.ca/MOLSON-INDY-1990-Full-Ticket-CNE-Toronto-Auto-Racing-VG_W0QQitemZ360247679997QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage _Sports_Memorabilia?hash=item53e06f5bfd

Those are just two quick examples from doing a simple Google search. Need I go on? Plus Chicagocrew beat me to it with a better example.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

And please remember that before the split the cars were called "Champ Cars"

In addition: From Automotive.com Article title:"Indycar History" by A. Calhoun

"The Indy Car World Series was the name used by governing body Championship Auto Racing Teams (CART) from 1980-1997 for the year-long timetable of the premiere open wheel series in the United States. The mark Indy Car was initially registered by the Indianapolis Motor Speedway in 1992. As a consequence, the Indy Car trademark was licensed to CART from 1992-1997. After a legal battle with Indianapolis Motor Speedway owner and Indy Racing League founder Tony George, the series was known as the CART FedEx Championship Series, and afterwards as the Champ Car World Series before integration with the IRL in 2008."

[ChicagocrewIRL]

... Plus Chicagocrew beat me to it with a better example.

It's good to be right isn't it Chuck ? :)

[anthonyvop]

Chuck,

the term Indy in the name hurts with an audience who dislikes oval racing. Why would you want to promote a street or road course race with a name that is associated with an Oval race?

It started as an all-oval series called the Indy Racing league. Then it changed by adding road and street course and renamed itself the Indy Car Series.

The Indy name doesn't seem to have helped.

I am sure if they did a survey asking about Indy Cars the majority of people would answer the Indy 500. Great. That doesn't help the other races.

I know for many here to even suggest the Indy 500 isn't the Holy grail of racing is sacrilege. But anybody can see that the name Indy isn't what it use to be.

[garyshell]

It's good to be right isn't it Chuck ? :)


Better than "reporting" wrong info, that's for sure.

Gary

[anthonyvop]

WRONG....

From Wikipedia: Article name "The History of the IndyCar name"

"Beginning in 1980, the term Indy car was often used to describe the race cars in the events sanctioned by CART, which had become the dominant governing body for open-wheel racing in the United States. The Indianapolis 500, however, remained sanctioned by USAC. CART recognized the Indy 500 on its schedule, and awarded points for finishers in the race from 1980–1995 despite not sanctioning it. The two entities operated separately, but utilized the same equipment.

In 1992, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway registered the IndyCar trademark with the United States Patent and Trademark Office and licensed it to CART, which renamed its championship the IndyCar World Series. All references to the name "CART" were decidedly prohibited, as the series sought to eliminate perceived confusion from casual fans with the term kart."

FURTHERMORE.....
"In 1996 season, the IndyCar mark was the subject of a fierce legal battle. Prior to the 1996 season, Indianapolis Motor Speedway President Tony George had created his own national championship racing series, the Indy Racing League. In March 1996, CART filed a lawsuit against the Indianapolis Motor Speedway in an effort to protect their license to the IndyCar mark which the Indianapolis Motor Speedway had attempted to terminate. In April, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway filed a countersuit against CART to prevent them from further use of the mark. Eventually a settlement was reached in which CART agreed to give up the use of the IndyCar mark following the 1996 season and the IRL could not use the name before the end of the 2002 season."

It seems the IndyCar name was a valuable asset during the split. I would argue it continues to be a valuable asset.

If you insist on using Wikipedia as a source..........


Champ Car was the name for a class and specification of open wheel cars used in American Championship Car Racing for many decades, primarily for use in the Indianapolis 500 auto race. Such racing has also been sanctioned by the American Automobile Association, the United States Auto Club (USAC), the Sports Car Club of America, the Championship Racing League, and the Indy Racing League (IRL).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champ_Car

Argue all you want. It doesn't change the FACT that a series that associates itself in it's name with one race has been on a downward spiral since it's inception with no realistic sign of improvement.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

If you insist on using Wikipedia as a source..........



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champ_Car

you forgot to add this little tidbit from the same article:

"At the height of the popularity of the series in 1992, it was known as the CART PPG Indy Car World Series until the split with the Indianapolis Motor Speedway in 1996."

CART PPG Indy Car World Series, NOT CART PPG Champ Car World Series.

Thank you have a nice day.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

If you insist on using Wikipedia as a source..........



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champ_Car

Argue all you want. It doesn't change the FACT that a series that associates itself in it's name with one race has been on a downward spiral since it's inception with no realistic sign of improvement.

I would argue that your perceived downward spiral has leveled off this season with healthy car counts, a program for the future, new leadership, etc. But you continue to choose to discount any positives that occur while others here celebrate the positives and not harp on blah blah 8 year old chassis engines... Those issues are being addressed and are being addressed rather well.

[garyshell]

It started as an all-oval series called the Indy Racing league. Then it changed by adding road and street course and renamed itself the Indy Car Series.

What a load of revisionist history! The Indy name goes back a hell of a lot longer than the IRL. But, this quote really explains a lot:


the term Indy in the name hurts with an audience who dislikes oval racing.

Do you have any measure of the size of that "audience"? Of course you don't. All this is nothing more than your continued venting of the F-the IRL mentality from the other forum.


The Indy name doesn't seem to have helped. I am sure if they did a survey asking about Indy Cars the majority of people would answer the Indy 500. Great. That doesn't help the other races.


But you keep saying it has hurt things. So report the FACTS, how has it hurt?


I know for many here to even suggest the Indy 500 isn't the Holy grail of racing is sacrilege. But anybody can see that the name Indy isn't what it use to be.

Wow, really? Did you come up with that all by yourself? Duh! It isn't what it used to be, but that still doesn't explain your assertion that it hurts things, now does it?

Gary

[chuck34]

Chuck,

the term Indy in the name hurts with an audience who dislikes oval racing. Why would you want to promote a street or road course race with a name that is associated with an Oval race?

It was used very successfully for many years. So much so that Toronto, and Australia kept using it even when the cars running there weren't technically IndyCars.


It started as an all-oval series called the Indy Racing league. Then it changed by adding road and street course and renamed itself the Indy Car Series.

The name IndyCar has been around MUCH longer than the IRL.


The Indy name doesn't seem to have helped.

You have yet to prove how it has hurt. And the glaring example of how it has helped would be the use of the name Indy in non-IRL races in Toronto and Aus. You're gonna have to come up with something stronger to prove your points.


I am sure if they did a survey asking about Indy Cars the majority of people would answer the Indy 500. Great. That doesn't help the other races.

Again, the promoters of the races seem to think so since they are the ones using the name. And you still haven't said how the use of the name would hurt.


I know for many here to even suggest the Indy 500 isn't the Holy grail of racing is sacrilege. But anybody can see that the name Indy isn't what it use to be.

In terms of TV ratings, attendence, and money made, it is the Holy Grail. Even if I conceed to you that perhaps the name isn't quite what it used to be, how does that prove that it is a harm?

[chuck34]

If you insist on using Wikipedia as a source..........



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champ_Car

Argue all you want. It doesn't change the FACT that a series that associates itself in it's name with one race has been on a downward spiral since it's inception with no realistic sign of improvement.

So you're now trying to argue that the downward spiral started sometime around 1980 when IndyCar started to be used, according to Chicagocrew's deal (but I'd argue it's been around longer than that)? You've got to be kidding me.

Did you ever watch IndyCar racing prior to about 2000?

[garyshell]

It was used very successfully for many years. So much so that Toronto, and Australia kept using it even when the cars running there weren't technically IndyCars.



The name IndyCar has been around MUCH longer than the IRL.



You have yet to prove how it has hurt. And the glaring example of how it has helped would be the use of the name Indy in non-IRL races in Toronto and Aus. You're gonna have to come up with something stronger to prove your points.



Again, the promoters of the races seem to think so since they are the ones using the name. And you still haven't said how the use of the name would hurt.



In terms of TV ratings, attendence, and money made, it is the Holy Grail. Even if I conceed to you that perhaps the name isn't quite what it used to be, how does that prove that it is a harm?

Damn, is there an echo in here????

It's pretty funny how we parsed his "arguments" in much the same way at exactly the same time.

Gary

[gofastandwynn]

Damn, is there an echo in here????

It's pretty funny how we parsed his "arguments" in much the same way at exactly the same time.

Gary

Lets look back even further in time. How about ABC's Wide World of Sports coverage of the 1967 Rex Mays 300 at Riverside. Notice what they called the cars back then

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLMYJPZMKqw

[Lousada]

Argue all you want. It doesn't change the FACT that a series that associates itself in it's name with one race has been on a downward spiral since it's inception with no realistic sign of improvement.

FACT is that a series which didn't associate itself with that one race failed. Twice.

[chuck34]

Damn, is there an echo in here????

It's pretty funny how we parsed his "arguments" in much the same way at exactly the same time.

Gary

I noticed that too. Great minds think alike I guess. Or at least ones that understand history. :-)

[garyshell]

Lets look back even further in time. How about ABC's Wide World of Sports coverage of the 1967 Rex Mays 300 at Riverside. Notice what they called the cars back then

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLMYJPZMKqw


Great clip!!!! I remember watching this on Wide World of Sports. It was over MUCH too soon. I wanted to watch the whole race...

Gary

[chuck34]

Lets look back even further in time. How about ABC's Wide World of Sports coverage of the 1967 Rex Mays 300 at Riverside. Notice what they called the cars back then

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLMYJPZMKqw

Wait, wait .... wait. I think you have a typo there. You typed 1967 when clearly you must have ment 1997. Since we all know that the name "Indy" wasn't used until after the split. Right, ... right?



Tony, don't let us bother you too much. Just having a bit of fun. Just admit that you were wrong. The name "Indy" being on things or not, at worst does nothing, at best elevates things a bit. It's pretty clear you're wrong on this one. We've all been there. Best to own up to it, move on, and we all will too. No hard feelings.

[downtowndeco]

Glad to see things are going in the right direction just as I predicted last fall when two or three guys were running around here telling us the sky was falling. Also glad to see that I'm not the only poster to see that a few here only have one true agenda. To piss on the IRL & the Indy 500.

Hate. It's the only thing that lasts forever. : )

[Mark in Oshawa]

Chuck,

the term Indy in the name hurts with an audience who dislikes oval racing. Why would you want to promote a street or road course race with a name that is associated with an Oval race?.

Never hurt attendance in Toronto, even AFTER the IRL left. I thought it was a dopey name for the Toronto race, but they put 70000 in the seats on race day year after year with that dopey name. So while I kind of see it your way Tony, the evidence in ticket sales in a non-American market says it worked. I think there is no other name that identifies the car with the public really. Champ Car had the only real alternative, and ummmm they are dead so I am inclined to leave well enough alone at this point.


It started as an all-oval series called the Indy Racing league. Then it changed by adding road and street course and renamed itself the Indy Car Series..

Yup, but among race fans who followed this whole saga, they know it was all semantics. Common race fans who didn't really care all watch NASCAR now anyhow...


The Indy name doesn't seem to have helped..
I wont disagree with you there except as it was stated above, Champ Car didn't really work. After that, what do you call them? Uglycar? Wingcar? Ovalcar? how about OW race car? Not too sexy eh? See where this is going? Nothing really works. You have YEARS built up in a brand that isn't doing well, but I suggest that fixing other problems will make that brand name work better.


I am sure if they did a survey asking about Indy Cars the majority of people would answer the Indy 500. Great. That doesn't help the other races..

Yup...but in Toronto as I said it helped sell the public that these are the same cars that ran that Indy 500, which maybe in the eyes of many the only OW race they watched all spring...


I know for many here to even suggest the Indy 500 isn't the Holy grail of racing is sacrilege. But anybody can see that the name Indy isn't what it use to be.

Yup...Tony George is responsible for that, but I wont hold the name up as a reason to change for the reasons above.

It isn't the name, it is the public image of the series that needs to be rebuilt, and getting some marketing think tank to give you a new name wont change the things that really do need to be changed. This is a quick fix that isn't really fixing anything.

[gofastandwynn]

Chuck,

the term Indy in the name hurts with an audience who dislikes oval racing. Why would you want to promote a street or road course race with a name that is associated with an Oval race?

It started as an all-oval series called the Indy Racing league. Then it changed by adding road and street course and renamed itself the Indy Car Series.

The Indy name doesn't seem to have helped.

I am sure if they did a survey asking about Indy Cars the majority of people would answer the Indy 500. Great. That doesn't help the other races.

I know for many here to even suggest the Indy 500 isn't the Holy grail of racing is sacrilege. But anybody can see that the name Indy isn't what it use to be.

Wait, you (and others) have said it was Tony George who ruined open wheel racing, but it turns out it was the word "Indy" all along...mystery solved. :rolleyes: The problem with your whole theory is that you have no correlation between the word Indy and the downfall of the the sport. One could argue the sport was hurt the most when the term "Indy Car" was gone, from 1997 to 2002.

So what word would you have the series called. Champ? That name holds more value that "Indy?".

I would bet if you asked about Indy Cars the VAST MAJORITY of people would answer race cars, and have no clue the differance between NASCAR, Indy Car, or Formula 1. There was an Onion article about it (http://www.theonion.com/articles/uhoh-annoying-coworker-going-to-tell-you-why-indyc,16917/)

PS, in reference to your list beside who will pay for all of this, what was the last Lotus chassis made. 1993?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Ok

First off Change the name to anything that doesn't have the name "Indy" in it. It makes the rest of the series appear as secondary to the one big event.

I believe my points on that were answered.


2nd. Open up the series to other cars like the Lotus and Panoz and use an equivalency formula. Same with motors.Hey, you are talking my language. The only thing is, cost issues are now rearing their ugly head and some form of competitive balance is hopefully not lost in the transition to this.


PR Marketing dept needs a total revamp. I think Bernard is addressing that. He is only been at this for a few months, but he took a sport that isn't PC and got them on ESPN. That aint bad...

Initiate a plan in which the series is the be all to end all.Not sure how one can do that. Explain what that statement really means and we can discuss THAT.

No driver, while under contract, should be allowed to state they want to go to NASCAR or F1.
If they do leave then make it a one way trip. To the casual race fan the defending champion is a driver who couldn't hack it in NASCAR!
You of all people understand the concepts of freedom of speech and restraint of trade. I agree they shouldn't do that, and I would really impress upon the drivers and team owners that 100% committment to the series is paramount. I don't think Having Franchitti as your champ isn't lost by him "not cutting in NASCAR". HE was on a poorly financed team with little chance to adapt. He didn't grow up with a stock car, so his coming back isn't the issue. The issue is Danica's flirtation with NASCAR. THAT is hurting the image since ESPN has built up this media campaign and image about her and the results are a joke. Not only that, but she has all but said NASCAR is where she wants to be. If not, it would have been nice for her not to sound so disappointed she isn't in NASCAR. Personally, I think the Andretti's shouldn't have never let her do both.



Severely penalize any driver who criticizes the series. Freedom of Speech. Which Amendment is that? OH YA...the FIRST.

Promote drivers who actually win or show a talent.That would be nice. I believe the guys winning however are promoted. Will Power is racing for Penske. Last I looked, where would you promote him to?


I have a long list for this and I don't feel like typing it all out right now.

You should. The debate is entertaining, and unlike some other critics, I do think you have the right instincts on what might be wrong.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

The SILENCE, in the face of truth and fact, is deafening.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

I think Anthony may have a point on this one. Indy does not need it's name on the series. It's pretty much a stand alone brand and is strong in it's own right. That's the problem. The Indy name overshadows the rest of the series and, to the rest of the world, makes the other races unimportant. How about The 'Super Bowl Football League' or 'Daytona Stock Car Series'? Neither has a real ring to it and neither does 'Indy Racing League'.

So I guess you would suggest what ? "Open Wheel Racing League" ? Gee that sounds great. That has a ring to it. NOT !!! I love "IZOD INDYCAR SERIES"

Indy is what gives this formula its identity. Ask anyone on the street what an IndyCar is and they would know even if they are not race fans that those are the types of cars that race at Indianapolis every Memorial Day weekend. Everyone has heard of the Indy 500.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Glad to see things are going in the right direction just as I predicted last fall when two or three guys were running around here telling us the sky was falling. Also glad to see that I'm not the only poster to see that a few here only have one true agenda. To piss on the IRL & the Indy 500.

Hate. It's the only thing that lasts forever. : )

from c....com:

Anthonyvop
Crapaholic
Join date: March, 2005
Location: Miami
4,061 posts (as of April 1, 2010)

did someone say agenda ???
hate and series envy I would say....impressive credentials to say the least.

[anthonyvop]

from c......com:

Anthonyvop
Crapaholic
Join date: March, 2005
Location: Miami
4,061 posts (as of April 1, 2010)

did someone say agenda ???
hate and series envy I would say....impressive credentials to say the least.

So? I am also a member of T.....m! So does that mean I hated and had series envy against Champ Car as well?

I have never hid the fact I preferred Champ Car over the IRL. I have also never stated a hatred towards the drivers or teams of the IRL. I have never called for the end of the IRL or wished it any harm. I have openly criticized the management of the IRL and will continue to do so until they turn things around.

Call it hate or series envy all you want. I call it reality

[ChicagocrewIRL]

So? I am also a member of T.....m! So does that mean I hated and had series envy against Champ Car as well?

I have never hid the fact I preferred Champ Car over the IRL. I have also never stated a hatred towards the drivers or teams of the IRL. I have never called for the end of the IRL or wished it any harm. I have openly criticized the management of the IRL and will continue to do so until they turn things around.

Call it hate or series envy all you want. I call it reality

Whatever you say "Crapaholic." Just so everyone knows there is a taint to everything you post on here.

Let's all move on.

Cool wallpaper by the way.

[anthonyvop]

So I guess you would suggest what ? "Open Wheel Racing League" ? .

That is another issue. Stop referring to it as an open wheel series. The current series has nothing to do with other series like WoO, Sprints or Midgets which are also referred to as "open Wheel". I know some of the guys who wish that we could go back in time will argue that point but it is a fact. The current series has nothing to do with short-track racing and it hasn't for decades.

Call it what it is......Formula Car racing.

As for a new name for the series I can come up with a dozen off the top of my head....Which everybody will criticize immediately.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

That is another issue. Stop referring to it as an open wheel series. The current series has nothing to do with other series like WoO, Sprints or Midgets which are also referred to as "open Wheel". I know some of the guys who wish that we could go back in time will argue that point but it is a fact. The current series has nothing to do with short-track racing and it hasn't for decades.

Call it what it is......Formula Car racing.

As for a new name for the series I can come up with a dozen off the top of my head....Which everybody will criticize immediately.

I'm sorry. We have not one but two examples of failure when, for want of a better term, a "North American open wheel formula" disassociates itself from Indianapolis. It may have not been the sole reason for the demise of champ car and atlantics, but even you have to admit it was a big reason for the failure of these two racing series.

The Dallara wallpaper is awesome by the way.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I'm sorry. We have not one but two examples of failure when, for want of a better term, a "North American open wheel formula" disassociates itself from Indianapolis. It may have not been the sole reason for the demise of champ car and atlantics, but even you have to admit it was a big reason for the failure of these two racing series.

The Dallara wallpaper is awesome by the way.

CART didn't dissassociate itself from Indy. They were for all intensive purposes given a poison pill they couldn't swallow. Tony George had no need to create the IRL and give it the Indy 500 other than his ego. Stop the fiction this was some innocent bystander who CART turned on.

Just like Atlantics were given the stiff arm because it didn't fit in with Tony's "Vision".

Revisionist history does no one any good...

[ChicagocrewIRL]

CART didn't dissassociate itself from Indy. They were for all intensive purposes given a poison pill they couldn't swallow. Tony George had no need to create the IRL and give it the Indy 500 other than his ego. Stop the fiction this was some innocent bystander who CART turned on.

Just like Atlantics were given the stiff arm because it didn't fit in with Tony's "Vision".

Revisionist history does no one any good...

I didn't state that the right way. I apologize. What I meant to say was that both those series were disassociated from Indianapolis by the split and they suffered because of it. This fact is not in dispute correct ?

[e2mtt]

I've done some market research.

Most North Americans have heard of the Indy 500, and know it's a car race.

Most racing & sports fans know that Indycars race at the Indy 500, as well as at other different racetracks, & have wings & open wheels.

However, extensive market research has found that there are 27 enthusiastic open-wheel road racing fans that absolutely refuse to become fans of Indycar because the word "Indy" is so deeply associated with oval-track racing that they find themselves completely unable to enjoy watching these cars race on road & street tracks. Detailed market analysis has determined that dropping 50 years of brand identity in order to attract these 27 new fans would ultimately be counter-productive and not produce a net gain in Indycar's popularity.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

I've done some market research.

Most North Americans have heard of the Indy 500, and know it's a car race.

Most racing & sports fans know that Indycars race at the Indy 500, as well as at other different racetracks, & have wings & open wheels.

However, extensive market research has found that there are 27 enthusiastic open-wheel road racing fans that absolutely refuse to become fans of Indycar because the word "Indy" is so deeply associated with oval-track racing that they find themselves completely unable to enjoy watching these cars race on road & street tracks. Detailed market analysis has determined that dropping 50 years of brand identity in order to attract these 27 new fans would ultimately be counter-productive and not produce a net gain in Indycar's popularity.

Love it. :) :) :)

[anthonyvop]

I've done some market research.

Most North Americans have heard of the Indy 500, and know it's a car race.

Most racing & sports fans know that Indycars race at the Indy 500, as well as at other different racetracks, & have wings & open wheels.

However, extensive market research has found that there are 27 enthusiastic open-wheel road racing fans that absolutely refuse to become fans of Indycar because the word "Indy" is so deeply associated with oval-track racing that they find themselves completely unable to enjoy watching these cars race on road & street tracks. Detailed market analysis has determined that dropping 50 years of brand identity in order to attract these 27 new fans would ultimately be counter-productive and not produce a net gain in Indycar's popularity.

See what I mean?

[DanicaFan]

Wow, this post sure went off-topic about wallpaper... :confused: ;)

[garyshell]

I've done some market research.

Most North Americans have heard of the Indy 500, and know it's a car race.

Most racing & sports fans know that Indycars race at the Indy 500, as well as at other different racetracks, & have wings & open wheels.

However, extensive market research has found that there are 27 enthusiastic open-wheel road racing fans that absolutely refuse to become fans of Indycar because the word "Indy" is so deeply associated with oval-track racing that they find themselves completely unable to enjoy watching these cars race on road & street tracks. Detailed market analysis has determined that dropping 50 years of brand identity in order to attract these 27 new fans would ultimately be counter-productive and not produce a net gain in Indycar's popularity.


See what I mean?


Uh, no. Enlighten us.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

I didn't state that the right way. I apologize. What I meant to say was that both those series were disassociated from Indianapolis by the split and they suffered because of it. This fact is not in dispute correct ?

As long as you realize that what happened back then was not really their choice. It wasn't a rational decision to think they were better off without Indy. Champ Car people said that publically because they had to try to carry off the illusion they could survive without it, but trust me, no one with half a brain in the sport now would ever tell anyone that any OW series that had any Indy connection or history could make it all the sudden without it.

It is why it vexes so many people. Indy is the anchor in which the racing culture of Indy/Champ Cars is based around, and some see it right now as a liability, and some realize the whole series has to rise up to support the 500. Without the 500, the series has no adverstising or historical draw to support it. CART/CCWS proved that. That said, the 500 is about 25% of what it used to be.....in impact or status with the general public. So there are no winners....

[Mark in Oshawa]

I've done some market research.

Most North Americans have heard of the Indy 500, and know it's a car race.

Most racing & sports fans know that Indycars race at the Indy 500, as well as at other different racetracks, & have wings & open wheels.

However, extensive market research has found that there are 27 enthusiastic open-wheel road racing fans that absolutely refuse to become fans of Indycar because the word "Indy" is so deeply associated with oval-track racing that they find themselves completely unable to enjoy watching these cars race on road & street tracks. Detailed market analysis has determined that dropping 50 years of brand identity in order to attract these 27 new fans would ultimately be counter-productive and not produce a net gain in Indycar's popularity.

27? you sure it is THAT many?

[DanicaFan]

And back to wallpaper...Here is my current computer's wallpaper... ;)

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/IMG_0457-2.jpg

[beachbum]

27? you sure it is THAT many?That is approximately the number of people who follow that "other" forum :)

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Wow, this post sure went off-topic about wallpaper... :confused: ;)

I guess I'm kind of guilty of feeding the troll, negative nancy, etc etc

guilty guilty guilty

[ShiftingGears]

Cool wallpaper. (The thread starters) Exploded views of racing cars pretty much always look fascinating.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Cool wallpaper. (The thread starters) Exploded views of racing cars pretty much always look fascinating.

I wonder if we can get an exploded view of Danica?

[beachbum]

I wonder if we can get an exploded view of Danica?I think SI already had that ;)