Massa: New teams are bad for F1

[RS]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/81892

Maybe the bang to the head last year did effect Felipe or maybe he is towing the Ferrari line? All teams have to start somewhere!

I guess he and Ferrari are grumpy because they wanted to run 3 cars so they could have had Michael back (or sell their chassis to a customer team)

[DazzlaF1]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/81892

Maybe the bang to the head last year did effect Felipe or maybe he is towing the Ferrari line? All teams have to start somewhere!

I guess he and Ferrari are grumpy because they wanted to run 3 cars so they could have had Michael back (or sell their chassis to a customer team)

Taking what Webber said to the LdM level of WTF?!?

Come on Felipe, surely you're a better man than to come out with this.

[steveaki13]

Strange!
A danger. Has Felipe not seen F1 pre 2002. Its not the 1st time cars have gone around 4 seconds off the pace. You would think Massa had never raced amongst tail enders but surely he remembers the early rounds of 2005 I remember the Minardi's a bit off the pace.


I am sure most of the fans around the world would rather see a full 26 cars (24 this year) rather than only the 16 or 18 existing cars.
We understand that the 3 new teams may (MAY) struggle a bit to start with but with more cars comes more racing and hopefully more action.
F1 has a history of team diversity and I personally don't want to have only 8 odd teams being competative and there being no chance of new teams working their way up.

Can't agree Felipe.

[Hawkmoon]

The FIA used to agree with him. They had this thing called the 107% qualifying rule to stop painfully slow cars from getting in the way during races. For some reason they don't think it necesary anymore.

Good for Hispania as I doubt they'll be within 117% of pole let alone 107% when they turn up for the 1st race without turning a wheel first.

New teams are good for F1 but the days of throwing a car togther and turning up at the first race are gone. The FIA should have brought back the 107% rule when it opened up the grid. That way we would have new teams and races less likely to be blighted by mobile chicanes.

[Sonic]

Ok let's stop the new boy bashing now Ferrari. These guys have joined the F1 club now, and whatever the rights and/or wrongs of their arrival on the grid they are here now - hopefully for good.

[steveaki13]

Ok let's stop the new boy bashing now Ferrari. These guys have joined the F1 club now, and whatever the rights and/or wrongs of their arrival on the grid they are here now - hopefully for good.

Too true. :up:

Also with 1 more to come.

With the exeption of 1995 no really slow cars made the grid from 1988 to 2003 when the 107% Rule was stopped.
This was because on the whole in late 80's and early 90's the amount of entries mean't the ridiculously slow cars didn't make it past Quali or Pre Quali.
Then by 95 there were only 26 cars so Forti's for example were guarenteed a grid slot.
So on the back of their lack of pace early on that season the 107% was introduced in 96 to again cut out any really slow cars until 2002.
So we are looking at a car 8,9 or 10 seconds of the pace for the 1st time since Forti's 95 or back to the 80's before that.

I may be wrong but thats how it looks to me.

[CNR]

this is a load of ffffen bull

read http://www.ferrari.com/English/News/Pages/100306_F1_Massa_fresh_start_winning_Felipinho.aspx


The new teams are having problems: also on the track?
"I hope they won't be a danger. There are 6-7 teams one second apart while those teams are 4 seconds behind. It's not good for the sport and not good for them: it's like two different series. They'll suffer. And we'll suffer too, when we have them in front of us during qualifying".

[steveaki13]

Looks like Ferrari expect every new team to enter and immediatley be within 1 second!

Pretty unlikley.

Of course Ferrari would never bring up the rear of the field would they. They would rather withdraw than be a tail ender.

hmmmm.. LUCA! obviously disagreed with Ferrari's official policy last year. :D

[RS]

Good for Hispania as I doubt they'll be within 117% of pole let alone 107% when they turn up for the 1st race without turning a wheel first.

No, they're 1sec faster than Virgin and Lotus according to Dallara ;)

[BDunnell]

To those who share the absurd, in my opinion, view that it's possible to remove every conceivable danger from F1 — it isn't, short of not running races at all — Massa's view might seem sensible. To the rest of us, it isn't. It is a shame that when a driver such as Massa dares to offer an opinion that isn't bland PR puffery, they are invariably ill-informed, crass and lacking in any historical perspective. Maybe he should be reminded, because, like most modern F1 drivers he will surely have no interest in the sport's history, that there have been times when his current employer's cars were trailing round near the back some way off the pace.

[F1boat]

I think that Felipe is following the team policy. My opinion is that if the new teams are three or four second per lap slower, it's OK, no problem. However, if they are 7-10 seconds slower, they should be black-flagged IMO for they truly will become dangerous, even if in Le Mans drivers deal with cars which are 20- or 30 seconds slower.

[UltimateDanGTR]

To those who share the absurd, in my opinion, view that it's possible to remove every conceivable danger from F1 — it isn't, short of not running races at all — Massa's view might seem sensible. To the rest of us, it isn't. It is a shame that when a driver such as Massa dares to offer an opinion that isn't bland PR puffery, they are invariably ill-informed, crass and lacking in any historical perspective. Maybe he should be reminded, because, like most modern F1 drivers he will surely have no interest in the sport's history, that there have been times when his current employer's cars were trailing round near the back some way off the pace.

:thumbs: totally agree.

Personally, despite in recent years the FIA being the Ferrari's International Assistance (In my opinion at least), I think Ferrari are still a bit grumpy not just over the 3 car concept, but the fact that they never broke away from the FIA.

hopefully, when they realise Jean Todt, unlike Max Mosley is not an insane knee-jerk reaction cretin, they will appreciate the FIA more along with their decisions.

[Dave B]

A cynic might suggest that Massa's just toeing the party line. If any of the new teams get in the way I hope the marshals will be ready with the blue flags, and that the stewards will ensure those flags are obeyed.

But slow or otherwise, the cars are being driven by professionals who hopefully can be trusted not to interfere with the faster guys up front.

[DexDexter]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/81892

Maybe the bang to the head last year did effect Felipe or maybe he is towing the Ferrari line? All teams have to start somewhere!

I guess he and Ferrari are grumpy because they wanted to run 3 cars so they could have had Michael back (or sell their chassis to a customer team)

So this Ferrari vendetta against the new teams has infected Massa as well. Don't get it. :rolleyes:

[F1boat]

:thumbs: totally agree.

Personally, despite in recent years the FIA being the Ferrari's International Assistance (In my opinion at least),

You are IMO, very wrong. Ferrari get their way only against McLaren and only sometimes. IMO Max disliked McLaren more than he supported Ferrari.

[UltimateDanGTR]

You are IMO, very wrong. Ferrari get their way only against McLaren and only sometimes. IMO Max disliked McLaren more than he supported Ferrari.

This is a very fair comment actually. But Max did make it look like he supported ferrari because of his anti-mclaren-ism. although, id like to point out, kimi on the outside of the first corner Spa 2009 ;)

and, Ferrari's International Assistance just fits better into FIA than any mclaren hating word play would :D

[wedge]

To those who share the absurd, in my opinion, view that it's possible to remove every conceivable danger from F1 — it isn't, short of not running races at all — Massa's view might seem sensible. To the rest of us, it isn't. It is a shame that when a driver such as Massa dares to offer an opinion that isn't bland PR puffery, they are invariably ill-informed, crass and lacking in any historical perspective. Maybe he should be reminded, because, like most modern F1 drivers he will surely have no interest in the sport's history, that there have been times when his current employer's cars were trailing round near the back some way off the pace.

So you're the guy who runs the Yuji Ide Fan Club!

[edv]

Massa...just adding to the bag of excuses.
By the same token, he'll giggle with glee when one of the new teams holds up the MP4-25 or a RBR.
It's like playing sport in the rain...it effects all competitors.
I will enjoy watching how Ferrari might mis-manage themselves this year.

[driveace]

Just what is the problem with Ferrari and its drivers?
Everybody has to start some where,and although these new teams may be off the pace in their first year,when they get more experience,of life in F1 ,they will improve.The current teams should by offering an olive branch to these new teams for making an effort to join "The Club".
proffessional drivers of their ilk,should be alert and able to deal with and see slower cars which they would have had to deal with,as slow cars try to get back to the pits after having problems

[maximilian]

Pure hubris.

[truefan72]

Ok let's stop the new boy bashing now Ferrari. These guys have joined the F1 club now, and whatever the rights and/or wrongs of their arrival on the grid they are here now - hopefully for good.

simply put massa and webber need to STFU and get on with the business. What is Massa going on about hindrance during qualy? How stupid is that? Is he trying to say that in the 20 minutes in Q1 he would not be able to do one flying lap to make sure he is faster than the 2 HRT,Lotus, and Virgin cars or the Renault? what a pathetic argument.

[truefan72]

A cynic might suggest that Massa's just toeing the party line. If any of the new teams get in the way I hope the marshals will be ready with the blue flags, and that the stewards will ensure those flags are obeyed.

But slow or otherwise, the cars are being driven by professionals who hopefully can be trusted not to interfere with the faster guys up front.

He probably is and that's why I can;t stand the comments or the guy's attitude for that matter. He seems to be too in love with being a Ferrari company man. That type of mentality will be is undoing as he will never see his dismissal from the team coming when Vettel, or hulkenberg make that jump to Ferrari and Felipe finds himself, driving for a backmarker or midfield team. I presume he would rather retire at that point than be a danger to his former employer right?

[DazzlaF1]

simply put massa and webber need to STFU and get on with the business. What is Massa going on about hindrance during qualy? How stupid is that? Is he trying to say that in the 20 minutes in Q1 he would not be able to do one flying lap to make sure he is not faster than the 2 HRT,Lotus, and Virgin cars or the Renault? what a pathetic argument.

He's just getting the excuses in early, simply blame the backmarkers for impeding you just to cover up your own incompetence.

He forgets that he was driving for one of these so called "backmarkers" in 2002 (Sauber) and from what I remember was'nt he often criticised that year for his driving style being a danger to other competitors?

[CNR]

maybe some of the dumb on line news sites need to put what they say and not make up a steming pile of redbull crap

but fota is to blame for all of this under the new budget cap new teams would have been given unlimited testing before the 1st race

[Wasted Talent]

Strange!
A danger. Has Felipe not seen F1 pre 2002. Its not the 1st time cars have gone around 4 seconds off the pace. You would think Massa had never raced amongst tail enders but surely he remembers the early rounds of 2005 I remember the Minardi's a bit off the pace.


I am sure most of the fans around the world would rather see a full 26 cars (24 this year) rather than only the 16 or 18 existing cars.
We understand that the 3 new teams may (MAY) struggle a bit to start with but with more cars comes more racing and hopefully more action.
F1 has a history of team diversity and I personally don't want to have only 8 odd teams being competative and there being no chance of new teams working their way up.

Can't agree Felipe.

I seem to remember Felipe being a tail ender in the wet at Silverstone in 2008, not just 4 seconds of the leaders pace - much, much more.....

WT

[Saint Devote]

Not only Massa - not too long ago Hamilton referred to the "monkeys at the back" getting in the way.

Lo and behold the next season - 2009 - he discovered what it was like for a while.

It is possible that Massa was speculating about the issue and rather said that he was concerned about slow cars being a danger and that new teams that are too slow should not be allowed to race.

In too many cases reporting is revved up or out of context to raise temperatures.

This is 2010 after all and journalist ethics - if that term can be used - are these days from a cesspool.

I do think that something like the 107% rule or these days perhaps 103% ought to be enforced.

As far as I am concerned, these days being more than 3 seconds or so off the pace IS too dangerous.

[truefan72]

maybe some of the dumb on line news sites need to put what they say and not make up a steming pile of redbull crap

but fota is to blame for all of this under the new budget cap new teams would have been given unlimited testing before the 1st race

agreed, all teams should have been allowed unlimited testing before the season and 2 testing sessions during the season. I always found it odd to limit pre-season testing, as far as I am concerned the FIA should really have no say how a team wants to prepare for the upcoming season.

[truefan72]

I seem to remember Felipe being a tail ender in the wet at Silverstone in 2008, not just 4 seconds of the leaders pace - much, much more.....

WT

right! I forgot about that.

surely he was a danger to the other drivers

[leopard]

Can understand Felippe's worries on inexperienced teams and drivers. He is extremely fast especially if he can pull away the start and everything are right in order - although in some occasions he performs great overtaking - hardly see that he's great to race with some barrier such as rain or in straight duels involving backmakers. Such barriers is not advantageous for him. This might involve fortune, but talent obviously plays the role. in this case imo Lewis is excellent.

[F1boat]

This is a very fair comment actually. But Max did make it look like he supported ferrari because of his anti-mclaren-ism. although, id like to point out, kimi on the outside of the first corner Spa 2009 ;)

and, Ferrari's International Assistance just fits better into FIA than any mclaren hating word play would :D

Yes, but IMO it is not right. I personally am OK with Kimi's race at Belgium and remember how FIA sided with Brawn and not with Ferrari in the diffuser row.

[CNR]

Massa retracts attack against new teams
http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/10379.html

Massa has moved to clarify his position and said the introduction of new teams is not necessarily bad if they can keep up with the rest of the field.
"I read the stories in the press that I spoke badly about the new teams," he told Brazil's Globo. "I didn't do that, I just said the time difference is too big. It cannot be good for anyone if a car is three seconds slower: not for the sport, for the people who watch, or for the teams themselves. But I am in favour of new teams coming in, because the more cars racing the better."

[V12]

Shame, I've liked Massa over the past 3 seasons or so, I do hope actually that it's a case of journalistic "licence" with the headline and emphasis of the article.

As truefan72 points out, with knockout qualifying there can be no excuses, if you're being baulked by them that means you're quicker than them and they'll get knocked out in time for Q2.

As for the race...well lapped traffic has been part of top level motor racing since they stopped doing city-to-city races and started driving on circuits. Deal with it. 4 seconds off the pace? That's nothing. Too many people have been spoiled by the stupidly close grids of the past two or three years.

I'd actually like to see the blue flag rule scrapped and leave it as it's original function, i.e. merely a warning system, then let the drivers work their way through as they used to. That'd sort 'em out.

[DazzlaF1]

Shame, I've liked Massa over the past 3 seasons or so, I do hope actually that it's a case of journalistic "licence" with the headline and emphasis of the article.

As truefan72 points out, with knockout qualifying there can be no excuses, if you're being baulked by them that means you're quicker than them and they'll get knocked out in time for Q2.

As for the race...well lapped traffic has been part of top level motor racing since they stopped doing city-to-city races and started driving on circuits. Deal with it. 4 seconds off the pace? That's nothing. Too many people have been spoiled by the stupidly close grids of the past two or three years.

I'd actually like to see the blue flag rule scrapped and leave it as it's original function, i.e. merely a warning system, then let the drivers work their way through as they used to. That'd sort 'em out.
Totally agree. :up:

I remember (even in the days of more than 26 car entries) when we had about 10-12 cars consistently 4-6 seconds off the pace and no-one complained, infact, on the current pace, the 2 new teams that we've seen in testing would STILL get into races if the old 107% still applied.

People (especially the Ferrari elitists) also forget that these new cars are not being driven by talentless nobodies like they were back in 1994-95 (e.g. Deletraz, Inoue) the drivers in those cars are either hugely experienced (Trulli, Kovalainen, Glock) or been successful enough and/or gained more than enough experience in the lower formulae to earn a chance (Bruno Senna, di Grassi, Chandhok), so they are not stupid, the only ones that are stupid are those that think that the slow pace of the newbies will be a danger.

All I say to the likes of Ferrari, Massa and Webber is to watch races of the past and learn the art of overtaking lapped traffic, the likes of Senna, Mansell & Prost were masters of this and is partly why they retain such legendary status amongst the fans.

[ArrowsFA1]

I'd actually like to see the blue flag rule scrapped and leave it as it's original function, i.e. merely a warning system, then let the drivers work their way through as they used to. That'd sort 'em out.
:up:

The rule that the driver being lapped has to jump out of the way within (is it) three marshalls posts is another example of too many rules dictating what drivers can and cannot do, and how they can and can't do it.

[DazzlaF1]

Massa has backtracked on those comments

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/10379.html

[K-Pu]

Well, I think Massa is (was) plainly wrong, because someone has to be at the endo of the grid. An I think I´ve said this a million times before, but what are some poeple asking for? A bunch of equally ultra-competitive teams who NEVER (god save us!) race near each other in order to avoid any kind of race incident and/or eventuality that is not fully dissected on a rule book? In fact, that was Ferrari´s philosophy some years ago, with the unlimited testing tendence by Todt, in whose opinion all had to be planned, fixed and it was mandatory to erase all kind of unpredictability. Then why the f*ck bother racing? Do a simulation with a steroid filled PS3 and it´s over!

And with new teams it´s te same. What happens with them? Is it wrong to start racing in F1? Do every new team have to be the new Brawn, winning both WDC and WCC in their first session in order to avoid criticism of being SLOW? Do some pilots (including Massa and Webber) and teams (including Ferrari) forget they have been at the back of the grid?

Danger is deep inside in F1. There will always be a degree of danger, and being 3 or 4 seconds off the pace is definitely NOT danger. I find it far worse for the sport hosting GP´s at weird places, but that´s another thing...

[wedge]

I'd actually like to see the blue flag rule scrapped and leave it as it's original function, i.e. merely a warning system, then let the drivers work their way through as they used to. That'd sort 'em out.

As much as I agree with you you had idiots like Andrea De Cesaris blocking lead lap cars for the hell of it.

[V12]

As much as I agree with you you had idiots like Andrea De Cesaris blocking lead lap cars for the hell of it.

True, perhaps some drivers may need to be reminded that blatantly going out the way to hold up a faster car you're not even racing for position is going to slow you down as well, and that a smart driver may want to let them go through and sit on their tail for a couple of corners to see how it's done.

But by the same token, if two cars are embroiled in a fight for position say, they have just as much right to be occupying that bit of tarmac as a car that's about to lap them. Again, a smart driver may wave the faster car through, and try to nip past when the driver ahead of him gives way.

It wouldn't be plain sailing, it may occasionally get a bit hairy or messy, but aren't people always saying that races are too dull and predictable? As has been mentioned, the likes of Senna made lapping traffic into an art form, and I remember he'd often gain handfuls of seconds over a rival as a result.

[wedge]

It wouldn't be plain sailing, it may occasionally get a bit hairy or messy, but aren't people always saying that races are too dull and predictable? As has been mentioned, the likes of Senna made lapping traffic into an art form, and I remember he'd often gain handfuls of seconds over a rival as a result.

Oh yes definitely.

IMO the 'good ol days' is a somewhat exaggeration. Having watched some full races from the early 90s and 80s they were no better than today but drivers like Senna made you sit up and take notice because he of his no-holes-barred approach to backmarkers.

For instance at the 1990 Canadian GP he went offline onto wet asphalt with the back-end stepping out under braking just to lap a car. Obviously that was how you made gains over your rivals and IMO far more exciting to watch unlike in recent years when you were staring at lap times at the end of a stint with the car running in free air.

(Also worth noting it is an often overlooked flaw of Senna's regardless how far the car infront was and expecting the door to remain open eg. Brazil 1990.)

[truefan72]

As for the race...well lapped traffic has been part of top level motor racing since they stopped doing city-to-city races and started driving on circuits. Deal with it. 4 seconds off the pace? That's nothing. Too many people have been spoiled by the stupidly close grids of the past two or three years.

yep!


Totally agree. :up:

I remember (even in the days of more than 26 car entries) when we had about 10-12 cars consistently 4-6 seconds off the pace and no-one complained, infact, on the current pace, the 2 new teams that we've seen in testing would STILL get into races if the old 107% still applied.

All I say to the likes of Ferrari, Massa and Webber is to watch races of the past and learn the art of overtaking lapped traffic, the likes of Senna, Mansell & Prost were masters of this and is partly why they retain such legendary status amongst the fans.

And these time gaps are to be expected when cars are running full tanks with no refueling. i think these times are right on par with the time gaps of the past no-refueling eras. By the end of the race the gaps will be down to about 1 - 2 seconds if not faster.

This is just a case of new teams ( and I suspect their qualified engineers) still adapting to the concept of cars running heavier than any given period last year for 70% of the race in 2010.

[jens]

Everyone makes their judgements from their point of view. I can see that a frontrunner like Massa would feel more comfortable in racing at a GP if he didn't need to lap and get stuck behind too many cars on circuit in the process. However, I personally find it positive that new teams are joining F1. They all have their own character, their build-up to the season has been interesting to follow and it'll be more exciting to see, whether and how well can they establish themselves among experienced teams. It's a massive challenge for them worth of following for an outsider. It's nice to see some new scenarios taking place instead of seeing that "Chosen Ten" keep going around forever in their restricted club.

And it's not like the new teams, who are making it onto the grid, are embarrassing. Being 4-5 seconds off the pace is completely normal. Back in early 90's a 10th-placed qualifier used to lose that much to a pole sitter, so our expectations have gone too high. One may watch a Monaco Grand Prix from these days to get an understanding, just how much did the huge amount of "slow cars" distract the racing of frontrunners.

[christophulus]

It's a bit hard to stomach really. All of the top drivers, bar one or two, had to start in a backmarker team. All of the new teams' drivers have at least GP2 experience, so they'll know not to interfere with the leaders.

[Sonic]

Everyone makes their judgements from their point of view. I can see that a frontrunner like Massa would feel more comfortable in racing at a GP if he didn't need to lap and get stuck behind too many cars on circuit in the process. However, I personally find it positive that new teams are joining F1. They all have their own character, their build-up to the season has been interesting to follow and it'll be more exciting to see, whether and how well can they establish themselves among experienced teams. It's a massive challenge for them worth of following for an outsider. It's nice to see some new scenarios taking place instead of seeing that "Chosen Ten" keep going around forever in their restricted club.

And it's not like the new teams, who are making it onto the grid, are embarrassing. Being 4-5 seconds off the pace is completely normal. Back in early 90's a 10th-placed qualifier used to lose that much to a pole sitter, so our expectations have gone too high. One may watch a Monaco Grand Prix from these days to get an understanding, just how much did the huge amount of "slow cars" distract the racing of frontrunners.

With you all the way. The last 10 years or so has been abnormal - to have the entire grid covered by, what 2.5s at worst?

What annoys me the most is people like EJ complaining about the newbies. For christ sake Eddie your team lived hand to mouth in the early days and again in the latter years, so what's his problem? Jealousy? Thee fact his team died and he feels these new entrants are being given a free pass into GP racing.

[Garry Walker]

What massa said, I agree with 100%. Sure will be fun watching those new teams be 5 seconds per lap slower and get lapped 4 times in a race though. True quality racing.




but fota is to blame for all of this under the new budget cap new teams would have been given unlimited testing before the 1st race
How would this have helped the new teams? They were so incompetent that they didnt make it to the first tests, one of them did not even have a spare front wing and one didnt make it to even one test. So how would "unlimited" testing have helped those fools?



:up:

The rule that the driver being lapped has to jump out of the way within (is it) three marshalls posts is another example of too many rules dictating what drivers can and cannot do, and how they can and can't do it.

So you are happy to see some idiot block the leader at Monaco for 5 laps and cost him 20 seconds? It is next to impossible to pass someone at Monaco, remember that.

Blue flags rule is a great rule.

[K-Pu]

So you are happy to see some idiot block the leader at Monaco for 5 laps and cost him 20 seconds? It is next to impossible to pass someone at Monaco, remember that.

How I miss those rare moments when the drivers STFU and drive, and if they have to pass a slow lapped car they do it instead of complaining. Even Senna, the Master of lapping, had is issues with Irvine because he was "racing". But that´s racing, a lot of cars at the same time in the same track. If they want to do time attacks, they can always go to a private track and/or use the monsterized PS3 they have for the simulations.

And yes, I´d be happy to see some idiot blocking the leader in Monaco, asking myself who´s more idiot, the blocker or the blocked leader unable to lap a much slower car when in Monaco it is possible to overtake. Imagine, for example, Alonso blocked by Chandhok for 5 laps, Alonso in his shiny Ferrari unable to pass the Hispania. That would be a most memorable moment in F1, and not precisely because of the rules, but for the severe skill-draining suffered by Alonso. This is only an hypothetical example, you can put whatever names you prefer there, but by chance this reminds me to Monaco 2004, when Alonso f*cked things up trying to overtake Ralf in the wrong place... And as an Alonso supporter, it´s good to take into account these kind of facts.

[F1boat]

I´d be happy to see some idiot blocking the leader

I am disgusted. Honestly.

[Dave B]

For me it'd depend who was leading at the time :p

[Sonic]

I certainly do not want to see a driver deliberatly block a car a lap ot more ahead, but I can see the point others are making - passing backmarkers is a skill not a right IMO.

I completely agree with drivers being penalised in quali for blocking but in a race part of that racecraft is to pass the guy infront, whether that be a lapped car or not.

[steveaki13]

I recall Pirro in the Dallara blocking Modena in the Tyrell at Monaco in ? 1991 I think, for about 3 laps despite being a lap behind. Modena was well up in 2nd or 3rd at the time but over the 3 laps lost about 15 seconds to the car ahead.
The problem for Pirro was the car behind him in the race was Nakajima in the other Tyrell and both Nakajima & Modena wore white helmets.
I remember James Hunt getting very upset with Pirro for his mistake.

[jens]

Let's make one thing clear now - and this is the conception of racing as such. You race against other cars for position. Cars, who are being lapped, have no business in holding up faster cars - they are not racing against them. They are racing against cars that are in front or behind them in terms of overall race rankings.

There were some ridiculous situations in the old days. De Cesaris has been mentioned here. Arnoux was another one. Lehto almost cost Schumacher a win at Estoril '93, because he thought he was racing against Patrese and was holding MS up for almost 10 (?) laps. Thankfully those situations are largely gone by now.

The main reason, why some front-running cars were badly held up by backmarkers on those days, was because their team-mates were nowhere and being lapped themselves. That's why it was much easier for the likes of Senna in his distinct helmet/car (whose lapping ability is largely being praised here) than for some, who had to carry the hopes of their team alone (like mentioned Modena in the post above).

[K-Pu]

Lapped cars are also part of the race. Trying to make them as invisible as possible is like trying to ignore a section of the track you don´t like. This is nothing more than my opinion, and yes, I know lapped cars and stupid drivers can be a nightmare or even dangerous, but that´s still part of the race, and that´s the main point.

And Monaco is the best example for this. The track itself doesn´t quite follow the rules. No run off areas, a lot of armco, much shorter race distance... and it´s still one of the main (if not the main) events of the season. I know there are lots of interest involved in Monaco, but what I´m trying to say is that Monaco is considered a great race track with all its features, including hard overtaking and/or lapping. It´s part of the race.

You race against each other for position, but a race is much more than you trying to overtake someone. There are lots of changing factors, a bunch of guys driving at top speed who can make mistakes, the weather... and that includes slower cars in fron of you. And if you can´t deal with race conditions... you are in trouble. Equally stupid situations are pilots and team principals with far superior cars moaning about some guys they are supposed to obliterate. If you can really go much faster than them, do it! Of course, the lapped car should not be racing for position against the lapping car, and that may make clear my point.

[BDunnell]

Let's make one thing clear now - and this is the conception of racing as such. You race against other cars for position. Cars, who are being lapped, have no business in holding up faster cars - they are not racing against them. They are racing against cars that are in front or behind them in terms of overall race rankings.

Yes, and no-one should want to see this sort of deliberate blocking. But, as you say, you hardly ever do today. And slow backmarkers have always been a part of F1 — well, almost always — so everyone should just remember that and, frankly, get over it.

Hardly surprising attitude from Massa, albeit wrong, given that I remember supposedly esteemed individuals such as Ron Dennis and Jackie Stewart getting upset with Enrique Bernoldi for defending his place against Coulthard in Monaco 2001 because Coulthard was fighting for the championship.

If people like that had that attitude about somebody racing for position, is it any wonder todays drivers would get vexed about a car about to be lapped?

[ioan]

It's a bit hard to stomach really. All of the top drivers, bar one or two, had to start in a backmarker team.

There was one who called the monkeys, if only I remembered who was it, all I know is that he didn't get as much flack for his stupid comments as Massa gets for stating the obvious (that the new teams are quite off pace and they might be dangerous for the faster cars).


All of the new teams' drivers have at least GP2 experience, so they'll know not to interfere with the leaders.

There are so many cases that contradict this, even with established F1 drivers.

[ioan]

What massa said, I agree with 100%. Sure will be fun watching those new teams be 5 seconds per lap slower and get lapped 4 times in a race though. True quality racing.


How would this have helped the new teams? They were so incompetent that they didnt make it to the first tests, one of them did not even have a spare front wing and one didnt make it to even one test. So how would "unlimited" testing have helped those fools?




So you are happy to see some idiot block the leader at Monaco for 5 laps and cost him 20 seconds? It is next to impossible to pass someone at Monaco, remember that.

Blue flags rule is a great rule.

100% with you on this one.

[DazzlaF1]

Well at least someone's come out backing the newbies

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/81939

[truefan72]

I certainly do not want to see a driver deliberatly block a car a lap ot more ahead, but I can see the point others are making - passing backmarkers is a skill not a right IMO

:up: :up: :up:

[ioan]

I think the difference was "the monkey's comment" was said with tongue firmly placed in cheek ....

Yeah sure, he only forgot to smile while saying that.
But don't worry you can continue living in denial if it makes you happy. :)

[truefan72]

Yes, and no-one should want to see this sort of deliberate blocking. But, as you say, you hardly ever do today. And slow backmarkers have always been a part of F1 — well, almost always — so everyone should just remember that and, frankly, get over it.

exactly

[truefan72]

Yeah sure, he only forgot to smile while saying that.
But don't worry you can continue living in denial if it makes you happy. :)

ah, and just like that ioan is back to full bloom.

[Sonic]

ah, and just like that ioan is back to full bloom.

Ok who had 1 day in the sweepstake? ;) :p

Sorry Ioan - couldn't help myself! :D

[christophulus]

There are so many cases that contradict this, even with established F1 drivers.

I agree, it happens from time to time, but I don't recall anyone's race being ruined by a back-marker not getting out of the way quick enough, or worse still causing an accident (although I have no doubt someone will correct me if I'm wrong).

Don't they have cockpit lights now anyway, as well as flags? Or have I made that up? Either way I don't think it's going to be as dangerous as some drivers are pointing out.

[BDunnell]

Hardly surprising attitude from Massa, albeit wrong, given that I remember supposedly esteemed individuals such as Ron Dennis and Jackie Stewart getting upset with Enrique Bernoldi for defending his place against Coulthard in Monaco 2001 because Coulthard was fighting for the championship.

If people like that had that attitude about somebody racing for position, is it any wonder todays drivers would get vexed about a car about to be lapped?

The criticism of Bernoldi was entirely unjustified. And, in the end, it didn't even ruin Coulthard's race. I thought Bernoldi's racing spirit that day should have been applauded.

[BDunnell]

I think the difference was "the monkey's comment" was said with tongue firmly placed in cheek and was meant more as a joke than a serious reference.

It therefore doesn't surprise me in the slightest that it should have been seized upon by some forum members as an entirely serious, and therefore 'stupid', comment.

[BDunnell]

Yeah sure, he only forgot to smile while saying that.

So everything that is said with a straight face must be serious and everything said with a smile must be jokey? Deadpan humour obviously isn't big in Romania.

[Sonic]

Personally I'd like to see a system similar to what we have now (ie there is a definable point at which a driver must give way) but I'd like to see more reward for brave drivers willing to get past on their own merits and less penalty for the poor souls getting lapped in the first place.

For example, at the moment if a lapped car is caught in a twisty section (lets use Bahrains new turns as a possible senario) he must dive out of the way after three blues - regardless of how this might screw his own race. In my ideal world each track would have a couple of designated passing spots (long straights ideally) where lapped cars could (after being shown a blue) blend out of the throttle to be passed with minimal problems to either car, but if the leader wants to be brave and save a few tenths by putting a proper overtake on the slower car a few turns before that spot then mores the better. IMO this would return some skill to the art of passing backmarkers and also still allow the FIA to punish drivers who fail to give way in a timely fashion - best of both worlds. BOSH! :D

You now all have permission to pick apart my brilliant plan with a hundred things I haven't thought of!! ;) :p

[BDunnell]

Personally I'd like to see a system similar to what we have now (ie there is a definable point at which a driver must give way) but I'd like to see more reward for brave drivers willing to get past on their own merits and less penalty for the poor souls getting lapped in the first place.

For example, at the moment if a lapped car is caught in a twisty section (lets use Bahrains new turns as a possible senario) he must dive out of the way after three blues - regardless of how this might screw his own race. In my ideal world each track would have a couple of designated passing spots (long straights ideally) where lapped cars could (after being shown a blue) blend out of the throttle to be passed with minimal problems to either car, but if the leader wants to be brave and save a few tenths by putting a proper overtake on the slower car a few turns before that spot then mores the better. IMO this would return some skill to the art of passing backmarkers and also still allow the FIA to punish drivers who fail to give way in a timely fashion - best of both worlds. BOSH! :D

You now all have permission to pick apart my brilliant plan with a hundred things I haven't thought of!! ;) :p

Or, alternatively, how about no more rules pertaining to this issue, meaning that drivers just have to get on with it?

[Sonic]

Or, alternatively, how about no more rules pertaining to this issue, meaning that drivers just have to get on with it?

A brilliant idea sir - and therefore will never happen! :rolleyes: Hence my massively complicated system that would thrill the FIA with the amount of "flexibility" they'd have in applying the rules.

[K-Pu]

Or, alternatively, how about no more rules pertaining to this issue, meaning that drivers just have to get on with it?

It should be that way: In fact, drivers should have to deal with anything on track, since they are there for that purpose. And they´re paid much more than me when I try to overtake a slow car on the road :D

[BDunnell]

A brilliant idea sir - and therefore will never happen! :rolleyes: Hence my massively complicated system that would thrill the FIA with the amount of "flexibility" they'd have in applying the rules.

Absolutely! And what a wonderful new way it would be of further making some modern-day F1 'fans' lose sight of certain elements of the sport that may not be perfect, but have always been part of it. Not every race can, or should, be a demonstration of metronomic perfection. Honestly, I wonder how some people commenting here would have got through watching a race from years ago, so disgusted do they claim to be about things like slow drivers and teams, risky passing manoeuvres and so on.

[ArrowsFA1]

I certainly do not want to see a driver deliberatly block a car a lap ot more ahead, but I can see the point others are making - passing backmarkers is a skill not a right IMO.
Exactly :up:

Or, alternatively, how about no more rules pertaining to this issue, meaning that drivers just have to get on with it?
That's a terribly radical idea sir :eek: :p

[Koz]

I must say Eddie overtaking Senna and then Hill was great too.

But the issue is these days... You can't overtake, can you?

[ShiftingGears]

The only drawback I see to the blue flag rule is when a fast car that for whatever reason, spends ages in the pits and rejoins the race in front of the leaders, will pretty much be put one lap behind and completely out of contention.

For instance, if Massa did not back off when leading Brazil 2006 when he was coming up on Schumacher, Schumacher would've been put a lap down and completely out of contention, when he was the fastest driver out there.

[F1boat]

In my opinion, when a car is lapped, it should give its place immediately and if it fails to do so, it should be black-flagged or at least given a 10 seconds penalty.

[Mia 01]

All things aren´t about you chap.

[Retro Formula 1]

I think Massa needs to think about his behaviour on track and not holding up other drivers in qualifying rather than worry about everyone else.

[markabilly]

Oh yes definitely.

IMO the 'good ol days' is a somewhat exaggeration. Having watched some full races from the early 90s and 80s they were no better than today but drivers like Senna made you sit up and take notice because he of his no-holes-barred approach to backmarkers.

For instance at the 1990 Canadian GP he went offline onto wet asphalt with the back-end stepping out under braking just to lap a car. Obviously that was how you made gains over your rivals and IMO far more exciting to watch unlike in recent years when you were staring at lap times at the end of a stint with the car running in free air.

(Also worth noting it is an often overlooked flaw of Senna's regardless how far the car infront was and expecting the door to remain open eg. Brazil 1990.)
i agree :up:

moving chicanes....

[Tazio]

In my opinion, when a car is lapped, it should give its place immediately and if it fails to do so, it should be black-flagged or at least given a 10 seconds penalty. +1 The system is just fine. If this was F1 biggest issue we would all be "drinking that free Bubble-up"

[Big Ben]

In my opinion, when a car is lapped, it should give its place immediately and if it fails to do so, it should be black-flagged or at least given a 10 seconds penalty.

Snipers should be placed all around the track to take them out if necessary