Behind the scenes at Virgin

[christophulus]

Interesting blog from James Allen, who's been round the Wirth Research factory.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/03/virgin-racings-secret-behind-the-scenes-at-wirth-research/


The Virgin car is around 4 seconds off the pace of the front running cars at this stage. In his view, the car lacks aerodynamic refinement compared to the Ferraris and McLarens because it is the first product from the design team, “We just lack experience compared to the fantastically clever people out there” – not because of the limitations of the CFD process.

The team has a strict budget of €45 million all in and so far has hit all the deadlines it set itself. It will travel to Bahrain with two cars and a spare monocoque as well as five sets of spares for most parts.

Makes it all the more impressive when you realise what a tiny budget they're operating on. Definitely the most interesting of the new teams, and I look forward to seeing how the car progresses over the year. If this CFD technique ends up being viable, F1 could seriously cut costs without having to homologate everything, which I think will appeal to pretty much everyone!

[Robinho]

just read the same thing, very interesting and i hope they are able to show the established teams a thing or 2 - if they are able to make this thing work they could well be in prime position to move forward very quickly over the next few years whilst the others play catch up.

very rare to see anything very revolutionary in F1 these days - everyone largely builds very similar cars with very similar features ina very similar way - nice to see someone who thinks they compete but do things different.

[Sonic]

As far as I am concerned it already is a success. Two new teams; one CFD designed the other more conventional Computer and wind tunnel project. Both are around 4 seconds off the pace and will probably develop at aproximately the same pac.

So in my mind if a Giant, like say McLaren, threw all their eggs in the CFD basket they could and IMO would produce a car of front running pace.

[DazzlaF1]

As far as I am concerned it already is a success. Two new teams; one CFD designed the other more conventional Computer and wind tunnel project. Both are around 4 seconds off the pace and will probably develop at aproximately the same pac.

So in my mind if a Giant, like say McLaren, threw all their eggs in the CFD basket they could and IMO would produce a car of front running pace.

That would be expected, then again as Wirth said in that article, his design team lacks the experience compared to the likes of Adrian Newey, Aldo Costa, Patrick Head etc. So to be where they are at the moment deserves nothing but praise.

Also if their methods turn out to be successful in the future, then they could see themselves being the pioneers of a huge F1 car design revolution. And that itself is enough motivation for them in my view to keep progressing.

Lotus are the same too, except they've miraculously built a team and designed a car using the normal method in just 5 months to a level of competitiveness the Lola team in 97 could only dream of.

[52Paddy]

What is good news is that they have met their deadlines and expectations. This has been far from a failed endeavour. They seem to have a very solid approach to this project and I expect them to improve with every race. Given their budget and lack of experience, Virgin have done a great job preparing their car - especially with the added difficulty/risk of building it in a non-conventional way. Fair play boys :up:

[wedge]

Those VR headsets made me LOL!

Must be what? Nearly 20 years since I saw those things? Gosh how time flies!

[RS]

Lotus are the same too, except they've miraculously built a team and designed a car using the normal method in just 5 months to a level of competitiveness the Lola team in 97 could only dream of.

True, but Lotus have Gascgoyne as the tech boss who has recent F1 experience.

Re: Lola, don't forget they had an old Ford V8 (I think?) whereas the new teams this year have a supposedly equalised V10.

[DazzlaF1]

True, but Lotus have Gascgoyne as the tech boss who has recent F1 experience.

Re: Lola, don't forget they had an old Ford V8 (I think?) whereas the new teams this year have a supposedly equalised V10.

They did, the same Ford V8 engine that was in the back of the Tyrrell that year, and that was a good 7 seconds faster

[RS]

They did, the same Ford V8 engine that was in the back of the Tyrrell that year, and that was a good 7 seconds faster

Ahhh, ok!

I wonder how far back USF1 would have been? Shame we never even get to find out.

[Malbec]

So in my mind if a Giant, like say McLaren, threw all their eggs in the CFD basket they could and IMO would produce a car of front running pace.

Doesn't this sentence tell you everything you need to know about CFD? All the top F1 teams have used CFD for years yet none of them are willing to dump windtunnels. Why? Because windtunnels still provide a more accurate model of airflow than CFD can, and because they can be used to discard improvements that look good on CFD but fail to work in real life without having to resort to testing.

Wirth has long accepted that windtunnels do help a lot with aero development but that his team simply can't make it work out financially, not surprising given how limited their budget is.

Nick Wirth has done a wonderful job with CFD both with Acura and now with Virgin but ultimately windtunnels provide that extra edge albeit at a price. Coming into F1 claiming that his all-CFD design will have a competitive edge smacks of gimmickery and an admission that his team simply don't have the financial backing to cut it. Manor has even recruited undergraduates straight into their CFD team in order to keep costs low instead of recruiting experienced staff.

VirginF1 is trying to make their cheap windtunnel-free approach to F1 a sellingpoint, their USP. Its still a cheap approach to F1 however and there's a reason why the other F1 teams aren't about to throw out their windtunnels.

[BDunnell]

VirginF1 is trying to make their cheap windtunnel-free approach to F1 a sellingpoint, their USP. Its still a cheap approach to F1 however and there's a reason why the other F1 teams aren't about to throw out their windtunnels.

And it's another example of Branson making a big show of something without the investment to back it up.

[Malbec]

Lotus are the same too, except they've miraculously built a team and designed a car using the normal method in just 5 months to a level of competitiveness the Lola team in 97 could only dream of.

To be fair to Lola, they had no intention of racing in 97 until a few months before the season when Mastercard demanded that instead of making an entry in 98 they should start a season early or that funding would be pulled. Lola ended up racing their prototype, Mastercard were stunned by the lack of performance which was an inevitable consequence of their haste and the rest is history.

Things would have been very different for Lola had their agreement with Mastercard been better thought out.

[Malbec]

And it's another example of Branson making a big show of something without the investment to back it up.

Why change the habit of a lifetime? I think he'll find quite soon that the benefits of sponsoring a team like Manor are not going to be anywhere like having a small logo on a winning team like Brawn though. What happens then?

[BDunnell]

To be fair to Lola, they had no intention of racing in 97 until a few months before the season when Mastercard demanded that instead of making an entry in 98 they should start a season early or that funding would be pulled. Lola ended up racing their prototype, Mastercard were stunned by the lack of performance which was an inevitable consequence of their haste and the rest is history.

Things would have been very different for Lola had their agreement with Mastercard been better thought out.

And Eric Broadley turned out to have been ill at the time, which, he feels, didn't help.

[52Paddy]

Doesn't this sentence tell you everything you need to know about CFD? All the top F1 teams have used CFD for years yet none of them are willing to dump windtunnels. Why? Because windtunnels still provide a more accurate model of airflow than CFD can, and because they can be used to discard improvements that look good on CFD but fail to work in real life without having to resort to testing.

Wirth has long accepted that windtunnels do help a lot with aero development but that his team simply can't make it work out financially, not surprising given how limited their budget is.

Nick Wirth has done a wonderful job with CFD both with Acura and now with Virgin but ultimately windtunnels provide that extra edge albeit at a price. Coming into F1 claiming that his all-CFD design will have a competitive edge smacks of gimmickery and an admission that his team simply don't have the financial backing to cut it. Manor has even recruited undergraduates straight into their CFD team in order to keep costs low instead of recruiting experienced staff.

VirginF1 is trying to make their cheap windtunnel-free approach to F1 a sellingpoint, their USP. Its still a cheap approach to F1 however and there's a reason why the other F1 teams aren't about to throw out their windtunnels.

I agree with you here but if Virgin do get the hang of running the car competitively purely based on CFD, then cutting out the expense of a wind-tunnel will surely help teams looking to get into the sport on a small budget. Teams with the money would be silly to throw out wind tunnel testing, of course. But those that can't afford may have an alternative and still be competitive if they get the other elements spot on. It will definitely be interesting to see the rate of development at Virgin throughout the season.