Promised you a miracle...

[Dave B]

For anybody to be made a saint there has to be evidence of them performing a miracle while alive. Now obviously that's pretty liberally interpreted by the church, but finally technology and modern techniques are catching up with them.

A nun "cured" of Parksinson's by Pope John Paul II has relapsed, almost certainly because she never had the disease in the first place but something with similar symptoms which temporarily went into remission.

Now maybe the placebo effect did give her some short-term benefits, and while it's a shame this woman has fallen ill gain it does at least strike a blow to the gibberish that the catholic church expects its followers to believe without question.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/05/nun-cured-pope-parkinsons-ill

[Mark in Oshawa]

For anybody to be made a saint there has to be evidence of them performing a miracle while alive. Now obviously that's pretty liberally interpreted by the church, but finally technology and modern techniques are catching up with them.

A nun "cured" of Parksinson's by Pope John Paul II has relapsed, almost certainly because she never had the disease in the first place but something with similar symptoms which temporarily went into remission.

Now maybe the placebo effect did give her some short-term benefits, and while it's a shame this woman has fallen ill gain it does at least strike a blow to the gibberish that the catholic church expects its followers to believe without question.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/05/nun-cured-pope-parkinsons-ill

It is sad, but that is why it is called Faith, and not science. I am all for people having religous beliefs, but they have to realize that it is often just a lot of faith and self belief, and NOT anything like a miracle.

Lets face it, if God could grant people the ability of healing the sick, what kind of sadist would he be to only allow the granters of the healing the ability to heal those would beg? IF god picked and choosed who he would grant his healing power on, then what kind of god would he be really?

[edv]

Ah a classic religious conundrum...
If God be so benevolent,
why then is there suffering on Earth.

Entire books have been written about this (such as God's Problem by Ehrman)

[Captain VXR]

For me, The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins blew almost every pro religious argument out of the water :)

[Rollo]

If God be so benevolent,
why then is there suffering on Earth.


There are a lot of inherently bad people on Earth.

Because if people were paid according to what they've done, then the whole world should be by rights, be completely wiped out.

[slinkster]

I'm sure the catholic church could think up no end of nonsense to counter act this unfortunate turn of events.

[Hondo]

For anybody to be made a saint there has to be evidence of them performing a miracle while alive. Now obviously that's pretty liberally interpreted by the church, but finally technology and modern techniques are catching up with them.

A nun "cured" of Parksinson's by Pope John Paul II has relapsed, almost certainly because she never had the disease in the first place but something with similar symptoms which temporarily went into remission.

Now maybe the placebo effect did give her some short-term benefits, and while it's a shame this woman has fallen ill gain it does at least strike a blow to the gibberish that the catholic church expects its followers to believe without question.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/05/nun-cured-pope-parkinsons-ill

I don't know that it's required for a miracle to come with a warranty or lifetime guarantee. "Almost certainly" is not the the same as "without a doubt" so the possibility still exists that he did cure her.

Gibberish or not, I would venture to guess the Catholic Church has in modern times brought comfort and inner peace to more people than the average secular organization.

[Rollo]

For anybody to be made a saint there has to be evidence of them performing a miracle while alive. Now obviously that's pretty liberally interpreted by the church, but finally technology and modern techniques are catching up with them.

The Catholic Church's proclamation of saints is 100% unfounded in scripture, and can very easily proven to be utter rubbish. This was just one of the 95 things that Martin Luther posted that church door, as being wrong with the Catholic Church in 1517.

Actually the word "saint" in the original Greek text is hagion, which in every single context of the New Testament is a general term for Christians everywhere, and never a specific term for some special circumstance as above.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't know that it's required for a miracle to come with a warranty or lifetime guarantee. "Almost certainly" is not the the same as "without a doubt" so the possibility still exists that he did cure her.

Gibberish or not, I would venture to guess the Catholic Church has in modern times brought comfort and inner peace to more people than the average secular organization.

I don't disagree Fiero, but you have to admit, some people use their Faith as a crutch to either do some stupid things, or refuse treatment based on the idea their faith will save them. Not so much Catholics, who I do believe for the most part as skeptical as the rest of us, but some of the splinter right-wing Pentecostal factions who believe in these goofs who get up on stage with a microphone and claim to heal people....

Faith should always be faith..faith in a world beyond, faith in god giving you strength to deal with life, and faith in there being a purpose to life. That said, Faith doesn't make the car payment, cure your cancer when you have smoked all your life, faith doesn't stop the mugger in the alley from taking you down, put a race car in victory lane or allow people to hit 50 home runs. I suspect we all do what we do based on our ability to deal with life. If faith allows you to think you are a better person with it, then that is fine. Just don't tell me how to talk to my god.....faith should be personal., or in the case of the atheists out there, non existent.

That said, people with no faith, well some of them have no check on their morality sometimes....or create their own religion. In the case of Mao or Stalin...we saw how well THAT works...

Miracles may be in the minds of many only......but believing in something better isn't a horrible motive.

[Dave B]

Gibberish or not, I would venture to guess the Catholic Church has in modern times brought comfort and inner peace to more people than the average secular organization.
If so, it's only because people like to have somebody or something to talk to and cling on to. Pouring your heart out to a good friend trumps talking to an imaginary diety any day of the week, and genuinely trying to live a good life is a better option than sitting in a box telling a priest that you've sinned. I guess the one comfort of the church is that it's always there when you need it, but so are the Samaritans or the local pub!

The Catholic church in particular has also caused untold harm and suffering, preaching the evils of contraception or abortion while covering up fraudsters and child abusers alike, for example. Most of the major wars and conflicts have been caused by religion, and even now a lot of the mistrust we put in our fellow humans stems from them worshipping a slightly different god in a slightly different way.

[Mark]

Most of the major wars and conflicts have been caused by religion, and even now a lot of the mistrust we put in our fellow humans stems from them worshipping a slightly different god in a slightly different way.

I'm not entirely sure that's always true. The two world wars weren't about religion at all. The wars in Europe down the centuries were more about grabbing power and land although they did have religion in the background. The crusades, of course, were entirely about religion.

Yugoslavia was more about nationalism than religion it just so happened that one side had a different religion.

Wars in Africa are often more tribal than religious.

That's not to say there aren't plenty of religion motivated wars, sad to say, mostly the Islamic world vs everyone else.

[Mark in Oshawa]

If so, it's only because people like to have somebody or something to talk to and cling on to. Pouring your heart out to a good friend trumps talking to an imaginary diety any day of the week, and genuinely trying to live a good life is a better option than sitting in a box telling a priest that you've sinned. I guess the one comfort of the church is that it's always there when you need it, but so are the Samaritans or the local pub!

The Catholic church in particular has also caused untold harm and suffering, preaching the evils of contraception or abortion while covering up fraudsters and child abusers alike, for example. Most of the major wars and conflicts have been caused by religion, and even now a lot of the mistrust we put in our fellow humans stems from them worshipping a slightly different god in a slightly different way.

Demonizing the Catholic church make you feel better? I don't disagree some poeple in the church are bad, but the concept of religion and what it is trying to teach usually is a very positive message, outside of course of this bugaboo they have against contraception. As for their dislike of abortion, I don't agree with Abortion either, but that doesn't mean I would ban people from it. I happen to think tho they are RIGHT to be against it. I guess that tho is a contentious issue for many.

Mostly tho, religion has done as much good if not better for a lot of people as long as people take it in perspective.....it is the fanatics that make life hell for the rest of us, and in the case of Islam, there are a lot of fanatics...

[Dave B]

Demonizing the Catholic church make you feel better? I don't disagree some poeple in the church are bad, but the concept of religion and what it is trying to teach usually is a very positive message...
How is teaching people to believe in fairy tales a positive message?

[Daniel]

How is teaching people to believe in fairy tales a positive message?
To be fair most people don't take that literally though. My parents are religious but AFAIK don't believe in angels, miracles etc etc :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

How is teaching people to believe in fairy tales a positive message?

It is parables. No one seriously believes word for word in the Bible but the messages the churches send is a good one. Respect for yourself, respect for others, respect for your spouse. I know you are bothered by it, because you obviously are either an atheist or just hate the idea that you may have to be held accountable for your actions? I don't know, but I have yet to be in a church (and I don't go often, since I am not religious) where the preacher/father/priest said ANYTHING that advocated anything harmful.

Religion is used by many to cope with life. Some use it positively, some use it too much, but all in all, the churches in my community and in most do a lot more good than harm. It has nothing to do with the book of Genesis or Mark or Luke, but in the idea of making a better society.

Trust me, I have no use for people who use religion as a hammer to nail people, or openly judge others, but spare me this crap that religion hurts people. Religion is the faith people have for something beyond this world, and anyone who doesn't believe in that world beyond this is hoping damn sure they are right because if they ARE wrong...well, it will be a rude shock. I see nothing wrong with the idea that people hold themselves accountable even with this crutch.

[slinkster]

Not all the messages reilgious organisations teach are good ones Mark. There may, in the first instance be good intentions but I'm afraid these
"messages" can be skewed and abused.

Even I have to agree that the actual principle of religion isn't harmful- (personally I have nothing against certain religions, others I have issues with) and to some extent even the idiots, evil people and wrong-doers who use it as a cover aren't either because if followers used common sense, compassion and were capable of free-thinking and not so afraid to question, maybe some religions wouldn't have such a bad reputation.

[edv]

Well, here's a lovely religious fellow....Pastor Fred Phelps of Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka Kansas.
He flies the Canadian Flag upside down because he contends that Canada is run by 'sodomising ******s' !!

He also has a friendly website for like-minded 'believers' http://www.godhatesfags.com/

Nice, huh?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well, here's a lovely religious fellow....Pastor Fred Phelps of Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka Kansas.
He flies the Canadian Flag upside down because he contends that Canada is run by 'sodomising ******s' !!

He also has a friendly website for like-minded 'believers' http://www.godhatesfags.com/

Nice, huh?

Well we know he is an idiot. Most Americans think he is an idiot as well.

The point is the idea of religion is fine as long one doesn't take leave of one's senses when taking it in.

If whacky morons like Fred Phelps didn't have religion, they would invent it or just create mayhem some how....

[martinbalmer]

Religion and a church are two separate things.

Religion stripped to its basics is simply a set of morals and ideals that people can choose to follow. A figure-head or god is something or someone for people to look up too, respect and, well, follow.

A church is basically an organisation made up of a hierarchy of humans who have collectively appointed themselves into progressive positions of power.

It is possible to follow a religion but not believe in, attend, or support, a church.

Religion is very successful in the way it can really motivate people to carry out their believes with total conviction. Sometimes that is a good thing, sometimes its a bad thing.

Often these people will progress to the top of a church of like minded people, where they will direct and influence others.

Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Religion and a church are two separate things.

Religion stripped to its basics is simply a set of morals and ideals that people can choose to follow. A figure-head or god is something or someone for people to look up too, respect and, well, follow.

A church is basically an organisation made up of a hierarchy of humans who have collectively appointed themselves into progressive positions of power.

It is possible to follow a religion but not believe in, attend, or support, a church.

Religion is very successful in the way it can really motivate people to carry out their believes with total conviction. Sometimes that is a good thing, sometimes its a bad thing.

Often these people will progress to the top of a church of like minded people, where they will direct and influence others.

Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad.

Now you stop being reasonable now....we cant have reasonable thoughts being posted!!!

[Daniel]

Religion and a church are two separate things.

Religion stripped to its basics is simply a set of morals and ideals that people can choose to follow. A figure-head or god is something or someone for people to look up too, respect and, well, follow.

A church is basically an organisation made up of a hierarchy of humans who have collectively appointed themselves into progressive positions of power.

It is possible to follow a religion but not believe in, attend, or support, a church.

Religion is very successful in the way it can really motivate people to carry out their believes with total conviction. Sometimes that is a good thing, sometimes its a bad thing.

Often these people will progress to the top of a church of like minded people, where they will direct and influence others.

Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad.
Whilst what you say makes sense to me with my reasonable hat on, you have to remember that religion combined with human nature is a volatile mixture.