Engines

[Chamoo]

Does any one have any issues with allowing un-badged engine suppliers to enter the IRL? I didn't know if this was something the fans didn't want to see, or if it was simply Honda saying they wanted to compete with a auto manufacturer instead of a Cosworth or a Judd?

I think if we ever get a second manufacturer to come in, Cosworth should be allowed in to provide a third option.

[V12]

I don't see any sane reason to not allow it. Of course any manufacturers would probably out do them by virtue of having greater resources. But if someone like Cosworth, Judd or AER want to build an engine to the regulations and run it under their own name, then they should be able to.

If I remember rightly, the IRL demanded engines be badged with a major manufacturer even if built by a specialist builder (the original Hondas were just rebadged Ilmors, and Chevy had that Cosworth motor) and that the associated manufacturer would need to agree to certain marketing responsibilities as a condition of entry. I'm guessing that requirement still exists :down:

[Mark in Oshawa]

Another failure. By only allowing the automanfacturers to play, you now have a spec series for Honda, because the little guys who would build engines for one or two teams have been pretty much shut out.

Variety is what made the car guys love the Indy 500 and the series back in the 30's, 40's and so on. The evolution of the car to rear engined racers in the 60's and the evolution of the Offy's to the Cossies and so on was also part of it. Now we have rules just constantly stifling anyone straying outside the lines.

Listen, if the racing on the track is dull, you better at least have some neat ideas and a variety of chassis, because right now we have so-so races at times, and NO variety. The people have spoken...and they aint buying it...

[chuck34]

Another failure. By only allowing the automanfacturers to play, you now have a spec series for Honda, because the little guys who would build engines for one or two teams have been pretty much shut out.

Variety is what made the car guys love the Indy 500 and the series back in the 30's, 40's and so on. The evolution of the car to rear engined racers in the 60's and the evolution of the Offy's to the Cossies and so on was also part of it. Now we have rules just constantly stifling anyone straying outside the lines.

Listen, if the racing on the track is dull, you better at least have some neat ideas and a variety of chassis, because right now we have so-so races at times, and NO variety. The people have spoken...and they aint buying it...

+1. I've been saying that for YEARS!

[methanolHuffer]

I wish it were about what the fans would like to see.

Lower budget teams will walk away if they are being lapped five times each race. The whole draw to a team that wants to show up is that if they finish a race they might not be totally humiliated amongst their sponsors and contributors.

Fans want the variety.
The majority of the teams want parity.
And the irl wants quantity.

I'd love to see different designs compete. The sanitized spec series is never going to be taken seriously.

[px400r]

I believe the reason for allowing (or wanting) only manufacturers is the marketing dollars they bring. Obviously Judd, Zytek, and AER would only bring technical diversity.

Of course for years the Indy 500 was fine with Offenhausers and Cosworths.

[Jag_Warrior]

Fans want the variety.
The majority of the teams want parity.
And the irl wants quantity.

Wow, great summation! :up:

[Phoenixent]

Of course for years the Indy 500 was fine with Offenhausers and Cosworths.

Built and modified by or for the different teams. In the glory of Indy when Offys ran they also had the Ford DOHC and others. All of them were built by engine builders like Drake Engineering. Nothing beats the sound of an Offy running at Indy.

[px400r]

Built and modified by or for the different teams. In the glory of Indy when Offys ran they also had the Ford DOHC and others. All of them were built by engine builders like Drake Engineering. Nothing beats the sound of an Offy running at Indy.

Same for the Cosworth DFX. They were sold as kits and built by engine builders or the teams themselves.

I don't see why off the shelf engines from Judd, Zytek, AER, and Cosworth couldn't be used.

[Chris R]

While I absolutely agree with the sentiment about allowing engine builders etc. I would have to say the consequence of a blown engine at 230 mph is somewhat more significant that at 150-190 mph.... Do you guys remember how laughable the early IRL was when they lost so many engines with the Olds and Infiniti that were fundamentally shop built stock blocks... Those engines were so bad they put diapers on them... IMHO that was what led back to the engine leases etc. and ultimately the IRL morphing into CART part deux.....

The current speeds and formula dictate a more reliable engine than we had back in the day... My suggestion is that the new formula needs to go for slower speeds if we want to increase diversity without compromising safety or risking 25 laps cautions to clean up the oil and carbon fiber from the accident caused by the last blown engine not to mention the torn up safety fence....

[Mark in Oshawa]

While I absolutely agree with the sentiment about allowing engine builders etc. I would have to say the consequence of a blown engine at 230 mph is somewhat more significant that at 150-190 mph.... Do you guys remember how laughable the early IRL was when they lost so many engines with the Olds and Infiniti that were fundamentally shop built stock blocks... Those engines were so bad they put diapers on them... IMHO that was what led back to the engine leases etc. and ultimately the IRL morphing into CART part deux.....

The current speeds and formula dictate a more reliable engine than we had back in the day... My suggestion is that the new formula needs to go for slower speeds if we want to increase diversity without compromising safety or risking 25 laps cautions to clean up the oil and carbon fiber from the accident caused by the last blown engine not to mention the torn up safety fence....

Chris, that is part of the deal. We cant put a spec engine rule in just because some people cant assemble a proper racing engine. Sorry, I am not buying it....

[px400r]

While I absolutely agree with the sentiment about allowing engine builders etc. I would have to say the consequence of a blown engine at 230 mph is somewhat more significant that at 150-190 mph.... Do you guys remember how laughable the early IRL was when they lost so many engines with the Olds and Infiniti that were fundamentally shop built stock blocks... Those engines were so bad they put diapers on them... IMHO that was what led back to the engine leases etc. and ultimately the IRL morphing into CART part deux.....

The current speeds and formula dictate a more reliable engine than we had back in the day... My suggestion is that the new formula needs to go for slower speeds if we want to increase diversity without compromising safety or risking 25 laps cautions to clean up the oil and carbon fiber from the accident caused by the last blown engine not to mention the torn up safety fence....

I propose adopting sportscar engines. Judd and Zytek already make customer engines, 3.4L V8s that produce around 500 hp. That should be enough if the cars are made lighter than the current 1600 lbs. And they're made for endurance.

Just thinking out of the box...

[Mark in Oshawa]

I propose adopting sportscar engines. Judd and Zytek already make customer engines, 3.4L V8s that produce around 500 hp. That should be enough if the cars are made lighter than the current 1600 lbs. And they're made for endurance.

Just thinking out of the box...

Actually that is in the box. The motors are relatively cheap too....

[Chamoo]

So what does everyone think about Lotus Group hooking up with Cosworth to build engines for their road cars as well as all motor racing activites?

Link Here (http://www.flagworld.com/news/?p=33245)

With Lotus saying they want to be involved with the Indy 500 and the IRL, does anyone see them maybe making a push to compete with Honda by badging Cosworths?

[dataman1]

So what does everyone think about Lotus Group hooking up with Cosworth to build engines for their road cars as well as all motor racing activites?

Link Here (http://www.flagworld.com/news/?p=33245)

With Lotus saying they want to be involved with the Indy 500 and the IRL, does anyone see them maybe making a push to compete with Honda by badging Cosworths?

Chamoo, First impression is OMG they want to use Toyota?? I hope Cosworth can fix the sticking throttle software issue. (Going for a laugh.) Really, no different than Illmor building all their badged engines over the years. I feel the more reputable engine companies the better. Set the specs, let the builders submit plans, build a few of each and try to make them fail. No back yard local garage builders could afford that process.

[Chris R]

Chris, that is part of the deal. We cant put a spec engine rule in just because some people cant assemble a proper racing engine. Sorry, I am not buying it....

Mark, I don't disagree - but I would say there needs to be a pretty good system for ensuring that the job is getting done right - if we are going the continue to see the speeds we are seeing.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mark, I don't disagree - but I would say there needs to be a pretty good system for ensuring that the job is getting done right - if we are going the continue to see the speeds we are seeing.....

You think Cosworth and Zytek wont be able to build a motor to hold up? The reason the IRL had engine problems is because they were stock blocks getting their R and D done on the track as opposed to being well tested before they entered the series. The Infiniti and Aurora's were untested and were untried under race pressure because the designs were new, and the budgets for those programs were small. The R and D was farmed out. Cosworth, Zyteck and the rest were locked out. The IRL picked and chose who they would work with. So if the stuff didn't work, too bad, the teams had to make it work. This is the DANGER of having restrictions on who can participate. It is one thing to make rules and outlaw exotic materials and electronics. It is another when you pick and choose companies to participate, giving them an oligopoly or monopoly. Then there is little incentive to do better. THAT is the weakness of the IRL model as it stands....

[Chris R]

Absolutely Cosworth, Zytec etc are fine - a couple of posts (not yours) seemed to be talking about teams building/rebuilding their own motors - that might not fly... If you are allowing in non-manufacturers in (and I think they should) - they probably need to still approve the vendors ahead of time or somehow control quality...

[chuck34]

Absolutely Cosworth, Zytec etc are fine - a couple of posts (not yours) seemed to be talking about teams building/rebuilding their own motors - that might not fly... If you are allowing in non-manufacturers in (and I think they should) - they probably need to still approve the vendors ahead of time or somehow control quality...

I'd say the free market can pretty well take care of most of the issues you are talking about. If someone starts making engines that go pop half way into the race, more than likely people will stop buying them.

I would agree that some minimum level of "compentence" should be ensured from the start.

[px400r]

a couple of posts (not yours) seemed to be talking about teams building/rebuilding their own motors - that might not fly...

Why not? It worked during the Cosworth DFX era. I'm sure it was the same for the Offy.

[Chamoo]

It looks like Honda might have someone to play with in 2012 if Lotus keeps up their interest. I think it's good that they are lined up with Kalkhoven as he will definitely put the pressure on Lotus to get the job done.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Absolutely Cosworth, Zytec etc are fine - a couple of posts (not yours) seemed to be talking about teams building/rebuilding their own motors - that might not fly... If you are allowing in non-manufacturers in (and I think they should) - they probably need to still approve the vendors ahead of time or somehow control quality...

The marketplace will dictate it. Listen, if Sarah Fisher cannot get an engine that lasts, she wont buy that engine. It will be a Darwinian process. You have too many motors go "poof" and you wont sell no more. It is that simple. Guys will buy what works. If they cannot afford to buy what works, then they wont race. No one is going to show up to run a car in today's IRL to start and park. The purse wont allow it, so finishing and doing well is an imperative. No one will buy motors that cannot do the job. No rules or "approval" of the IRL will change that. They tried that and you saw Infiniti's and Aurora's going "poof" and there was no hope of an outside supplier showing up with a better motor now was there?

[call_me_andrew]

I don't mind a non-badge engine builder provided they're not the only competiton for Honda.

Honda can keep their enigines cheap due to their monopoly on the series. If they lost half of their market to Cosworth, for example, engine costs would double to compensate for the lost sales volume. And that's before you consider that Honda and Cosworth would now be in a horsepower war that requires more technology (technology = money) to best the opposition.

Variety is great, but there's a right way and a wrong way to have it.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't mind a non-badge engine builder provided they're not the only competiton for Honda.

Honda can keep their enigines cheap due to their monopoly on the series. If they lost half of their market to Cosworth, for example, engine costs would double to compensate for the lost sales volume. And that's before you consider that Honda and Cosworth would now be in a horsepower war that requires more technology (technology = money) to best the opposition.

Variety is great, but there's a right way and a wrong way to have it.

At some point, Honda isn't in this to make money. I suspect the cost wouldn't change to the teams. Honda would have to compete for customers and they would want to keep as many as they could if Cosworth came by and built great motors as well. It was said Honda tried to convince Toyota to stay in the IRL. IT was one of the attractions to market against the competition and it would help both.

At some point, the IRL has to quit yapping about just spec's and cost containment and get something going on the technical side. The teams are hurting for cash no matter what is done, so find a way to allow some fresh air in. Believe me, no major manufacturer is going to get into this to make a profit. They want the exposure and the rep if they win the Indy 500. THAT will mean they will eat costs to get that.

[px400r]

Believe me, no major manufacturer is going to get into this to make a profit. They want the exposure and the rep if they win the Indy 500. THAT will mean they will eat costs to get that.

One of the lessons that Honda and Toyota taught AOW is that is was willing to spend money to win (or beat the other guy). A lot of that money went to the teams, to the point that when the manufacturer money went south, so did the sport.

I'm starting to think that an economic model that doesn't depend on manufacturers is something the IRL needs to seriously consider.