The pot (Button)calling the kettle(Schumacher) black

[CNR]

Button: Schumacher would not have won without the best car
http://betting.gamingsupermarket.com/news/2410/button-schumacher-would-not-have-won-without-the-best-car

2009 world Formula 1 champion Jenson Button believes that seven time world champion Michael Schumacher would not have been so successful if he hadn’t driven for Ferrari.

[Dave B]

He's suggesting that in F1 you need a good team around you and a good car to drive. Read the whole article, not the single line you've chosen, and you'll see that he includes himself in that:


The former Brawn GP driver and Britain’s tenth formula 1 world champion insists that his victory was down to the team and not himself and said the best drivers cannot win single-handedly.


Nothing to see here.

[BeansBeansBeans]

What Dave said.

All Button is saying is that F1 is a team sport, and he's right.

[SGWilko]

Or


"Jenson Button believes that Michael Schumacher hadn’t driven for Ferrari."

[BeansBeansBeans]

I find that a good way of cutting through the journalistic BS to get to the real (non) story is to simply read the actual quotes. From this we learn that Button said:

"In Formula One a driver cannot win the championship by himself. Michael [Schumacher] or Fernando [Alonso] wouldn't have won by themselves."

"When I saw the No. 1 on the car I was very excited, I have never led in my career. We will see the most exciting world championship in the history of F1. Alonso is looking quick and will see whether or not Schumi has a point to prove."

Can anyone find anything even remotely contentious in either of those statements?

[F1boat]

Jenson is always very polite and humble. What he says is true. F1 is a team sport and Michael knows this himself. Remember his final Japanese GP, when he shook the hands of all his mechanics.

[wedge]

At the end of the day it is the drivers that make the difference - not that he should take all the plaudits as do fully acknowledge the team sport view.

What did Kovy ever achieve at McLaren? He was in a WDC winning car and yet he did sod all bar a gifted first win. Even Kubica easily beat him in 2008.

[edv]

Where's ioan?
His ban is done (?)
He should be All Over this thread LOL

[wedge]

I agree with what you are saying but lets not complicate this more than it needs to be in this particular case. The driver is very important, but the moment you remove important people, the equation falls apart. I think Jenson was making a general remark about needing a good team behind you to suceed in winning the championship. For example if you put a bunch of chaps who had never done a pitstop before and asked them to perform in 6 seconds, the best driver in the world would not be able to compensate for poor application IMO. Lets not look into this too literally with the intention of finding fault. :)

Personally I see it as BS from Button. Just because he's WDC he thinks he see's himself with up their with Schumi and/or talk his way out of any percieved criticisms of him.

He only won WDC because he had the best car. He looked average in an inferior Brawn.`

For me, the best out-drive a bad car as well be dominant in the best.

[SGWilko]

He only won WDC because he had the best car.

Wasn't that what he was saying in the interview?

[F1boat]

Wasn't that what he was saying in the interview?

:)

[wedge]

Wasn't that what he was saying in the interview?

Apart from Hungary (arguably lucky win) Button hasn't won when he was best of the rest which, in my eyes, is a barometer of success.

Hamilton, Schumi, Alonso, Senna have shown this. That is one of the reasons they are the very best.

[christophulus]

I think Jenson was making a general remark about needing a good team behind you to succeed in winning the championship.

I agree, it's just lousy journalism. Button didn't actually say that it was only due to Ferrari that Schumacher won so many titles, he won two with Benetton after all. Schumacher, Brawn, Todt etc were all integral to the team's success.

[pino]

Where's ioan?
His ban is done (?)
He should be All Over this thread LOL

Yes his ban is done :)

[AndyL]

Apart from Hungary (arguably lucky win) Button hasn't won when he was best of the rest which, in my eyes, is a barometer of success.

Hamilton, Schumi, Alonso, Senna have shown this. That is one of the reasons they are the very best.

Well Hamilton, Schumacher etc. haven't done that either, apart from the times they did it. You seem to be arguing against yourself there :confused:

[CNR]

He's suggesting that in F1 you need a good team around you and a good car to drive. Read the whole article, not the single line you've chosen, and you'll see that he includes himself in that:



Nothing to see here.

"The Pot Calling The Kettle Black" (to say something about someone else which is actually true of you yourself... ) You are the pot calling the kettle black"

[F1boat]

I have never heard Button try and compare himself with the likes of who you have mentioned. He certainly doesn't give me that impression in the short sentences quoted in that article. He simply said a driver needs a good team behind him and that Schuey and Alonso could not have won a WDC with a rubbish team in effect. Even Schuey couldn't win a championship in a Minardi and thats not a particularly outlandish statement to make its pure common sense.

I think you are over analysing those quotes to find something that isn't there. Whether he won his WDC in a dominant car is not the issue here, and he's entitled to be proud of his achievement IMO. He is afterall a member of a very elite list of world champions and dominating his teammate for 12 of the 17 races last year counts for something.

It's just that some people always try to diminish the success of Jenson, no matter whether it was his brilliant win in Hungary in 2006, his finish as first of the non-Ferrari drivers in 2004 or his world championship title in 2009.

[wedge]

It's just that some people always try to diminish the success of Jenson, no matter whether it was his brilliant win in Hungary in 2006, his finish as first of the non-Ferrari drivers in 2004 or his world championship title in 2009.

When there is a thread on Schumi it instantly descends into him being a cheat and #1 status to diminish his success. Button should be no different. We should be free to discuss and analyse.

2006 was not a brilliant win. The Renault mechanics handed it to Button on a plate.

I am happy for Button's achievements but it should not be over done. It should be set in context. Mansell is my all time favourite but I would never put him up there with Fangio, Senna, etc.


Well Hamilton, Schumacher etc. haven't done that either, apart from the times they did it. You seem to be arguing against yourself there :confused:

What planet are you from?

Hamilton won twice last year in a car that probably didn't deserve to win.

Schumi got 3 wins in 1996 in a Ferrari that didn't deserve to win a car that year.

If they had they had driven the 2004 Honda they would've won at least once.

[F1boat]

When there is a thread on Schumi it instantly descends into him being a cheat and #1 status to diminish his success.

And for me this is wrong as well.

[wedge]

And for me this is wrong as well.

Why? You don't like criticism?

[SGWilko]

If they had they had driven the 2004 Honda they would've won at least once.

Well, if Schumi was in the BAR in 2004, he would not have been in the Ferrari, would he now?

I just try to understand what logic dictates you to be so bold as to suggest they would have won at least one race in 2004. Do you know something we don't?

[AndyL]

What planet are you from?

Hamilton won twice last year in a car that probably didn't deserve to win.

Schumi got 3 wins in 1996 in a Ferrari that didn't deserve to win a car that year.

If they had they had driven the 2004 Honda they would've won at least once.

I was simply pointing out that an argument that starts with "Apart from the time that X did Y, X has never done Y" doesn't look like a strong one.

[F1boat]

Why? You don't like criticism?

I don't like negativism.

[race_director]

Where's ioan?
His ban is done (?)
He should be All Over this thread LOL

IOAN banned? i must have been in coma for a long time

[race_director]

schumi fought with a busted car for championship in 1996,97.98.99,2005,2006,2007.

what was jenson doing when his care was not good.? was driving like on vacation for 9 years.

what the hell

[SGWilko]

schumi fought with a busted car for championship in 1996,97.98.99,2005,2006,2007.

what was jenson doing when his care was not good.? was driving like on vacation for 9 years.

what the hell

I tend to find it best to call Social Services when your care is not good.

2007 saw Schumi car so 'busted', he didn't bother to turn up.

[V12]

To be fair I don't think Schuey has ever driven a rubbish car, 1996 maybe coming closest.

His early Benettons were regular points scorers with Brundle and Patrese. Herbert won races with his. Irvine came close to winning the title in 1999 after MS broke his leg, Barrichello was a regular race winner/2nd place to Schumacher in his time at Ferrari. Massa won races in the year he and Schumacher were together.

I'm not disputing Schumacher has often transcended his car slightly, or that he has won regularly in the 2nd/3rd/4th best car through his career, or that he was arguably the best driver racing from 2nd May 1994 till he retired, but he's never driven any real stinkers either. He's never appeared for a team outside the top 4 of their time. Even if you include his Jordan one-off, you can only change that to top 5.

[wedge]

I don't like negativism.

Yes, criticism can be ugly but it is necessary. Sadly there are countries in the world where its citizens do not have this freedom.

[F1boat]

Yes, criticism can be ugly but it is necessary. Sadly there are countries in the world where its citizens do not have this freedom.

What has to do with Formula One is slightly beyond me. Honestly, I prefer to take the view that we have in F1 many good drivers and some great one rather than many rubbish drivers and several cheats. But I guess that it is a matter of taste.

[F1boat]

To be fair I don't think Schuey has ever driven a rubbish car, 1996 maybe coming closest.



I agree, although it is because of his quality as a driver IMO - top teams wanted him.

[Valve Bounce]

Yes his ban is done :)

What? :confused:

.............I missed it. :(

[Valve Bounce]

Yes, criticism can be ugly but it is necessary. Sadly there are countries in the world where its citizens do not have this freedom.

That's positively frightening! :eek:

[Valve Bounce]

What Bunsen said is just common sense.

[wedge]

Could Schuey have won five consecutive world championships in Minardi? No. Could Alonso have beaten Schuey in two consecutive seasons if he was driving a Minardi and Schuey in a Ferrari?. No. Its simple maths and if you haven't got a decent car and a decent team behind you, no matter how talented you are, you're not going to win a world championship. This really is a nothing article and the fact people are trying to find fault, shows an underlying element of boredom somewhere..Next!! :p :)

That is putting things into extremes.

When the car is not good to win, not to his liking, damage limitation, Button cannot put in a great performance. It was Barrichello who could do this and instead Button was moaning about the tyres.

In 2006 China GP Schumi was the only Bridgestone driver to qualify in the top 10 and went on to win the race; 1995 wet Belgium GP Schumi (slicks) held off Hill who was on wets!; or how about 1998 Hungarian GP when Brawn switched Schumi onto 3 stop and Schumi had to do qualy style stints to make up the difference of stopping 3 times.

It is those kind of performances where you have to dig deep and fight, not cry constantly like a spoilt baby when things aren't going your way.

[ArrowsFA1]

All Button is saying is that F1 is a team sport, and he's right.
:up:

[wedge]

I can appreciate that Button is not the same calibre of driver as Schuey or Alonso, but what has that got to do with the quotes in the article in question?

Button dominated Barrichello in 12 of the 17 races last season and that is an impressive figure. After Buttons winning spell in the first 7 races, the last 10 were split 50/50 in terms of one finishing infront of the other. The difference being that Barrichello won 2 races in that ten whereas Button finished no higher than second.

How Button won his title is not the issue regarding this fairly sensible statement IMO. He drew no conclusions regarding who was better, just that any driver needs a good team to win. None of us are under any illusions that Button is on equal status to Schuey of Fernando. I don't quite know how you came to the conclusion he "cried like a baby" when he didn't get his way, or when he was blaming his tyres. I don't recall seeing any evidence of this at all? Saying that his performance was related to the tyres in an interview, is hardly comparable with the kind of outburst we witnessed from Trulli at the Brazilian GP, or Massa on the grid in Malaysia, or even Kubica storming out of the pits in Monaco. I wouldn't go as far as labelling any of them as that. Crying like a spoilt baby is a pretty extreme claim IMO.. :eek:

British GP: "How can the car be so bad?". He was screaming like a girl over the radio.

Yes F1 is a team sport but who has to steer, brake, accelerate? Which is the greater accolade: WDC or WCC?

Button never maximised the car in all circumstances - and I don't mean every race because a driver will obviously have bad days.

[ArrowsFA1]

British GP: "How can the car be so bad?". He was screaming like a girl over the radio.
Don't know about "screaming like a girl" but I think his question was a reasonable one given that he'd come to the British GP having won 5 of the previous 7 races; four in succession heading to Silverstone.

[Dave B]

So what have we learned from this thread so far? Lazy journalists like to sensationalise throwaway comments, and Schumacher Snr is generally regarded as a better driver than Button. Hardly earth-shattering revelations, are they?

[F1boat]

In my opinion it is far better to strike when the car is good, like Button, then to be outperforming a bad car and fail with a fast one, like Barrichello or Fisichella. And about screaming like a girl, IMO this is really a classless comment...

[wedge]

Don't know about "screaming like a girl" but I think his question was a reasonable one given that he'd come to the British GP having won 5 of the previous 7 races; four in succession heading to Silverstone.

And yet Rubens had fewer problems...


So what have we learned from this thread so far? Lazy journalists like to sensationalise throwaway comments, and Schumacher Snr is generally regarded as a better driver than Button. Hardly earth-shattering revelations, are they?

Bad journalism?

It was near lazy comment from Button. It is all very well having the best car/team but you have to consistantly perform at the maximum level and Button did not do this when the car was inferior.


In my opinion it is far better to strike when the car is good, like Button, then to be outperforming a bad car and fail with a fast one, like Barrichello or Fisichella. And about screaming like a girl, IMO this is really a classless comment...

No, it is more important when you have to create something from nothing.

Easiest analogy is in football:

Ibrahimovic is often criticised for not consistantly performing at the very top level, World Cups especially.

It has often been said Ronaldo made the difference for Manchester United in the EPL last year because he could decimate the opposition defences who were quite happy to play for stalemate.

[F1boat]

No, it is more important when you have to create something from nothing.


I don't need examples from football. For me the F1 results are more than enough. 6 wins for Jenson and 2 for Rubens. Jenson WDC, Rubens third. For me several wins in a row are more impressive than one win after McLaren pit error and another one also with dominant car.

[ArrowsFA1]

And yet Rubens had fewer problems...
At the British GP? Perhaps. Over the course of the season he also had fewer wins, fewer pole positions, fewer laps led, and fewer points.

Still, all of that has nothing to do with JB's comment that "In Formula One a driver cannot win the championship by himself". That's what he's quoted as saying. He didn't say (as the headline suggests) that Schumacher would not have won without the best car. He is quoted as saying "Michael [Schumacher] or Fernando [Alonso] wouldn't have won by themselves."

Is he wrong? Can a driver win a championship by himself?

[Dave B]

Bad journalism?

It was near lazy comment from Button.
Go back and read the original article and note how little is directly attributed to Button as a quote. We don't know the context, or even if they're accurately reported - it's a gambling website after all, the article isn't exactly written by a sports journalist. Even so, there's nothing remotely lazy or controversial in his words as quoted, it's the way they've been extrapolated and twisted both in the story and on this thread that's lazy.

[wedge]

Is he wrong? Can a driver win a championship by himself?

On some occasions and to an extent it will come down erring towards the driver. That is my argument.

[Valve Bounce]

Is he wrong? Can a driver win a championship by himself?

Very difficult. I just can't imagine a driver winning a championship these days unless he had a very competitive car. The level of driving ability of the top 5 or 6 drivers is so close that for that driver to win a race at any circuit, he must have luck, the best set up for the track and weather conditions, and a modicum of bad luck to affect his adversaries.

[F1boat]

Very difficult. I just can't imagine a driver winning a championship these days unless he had a very competitive car. The level of driving ability of the top 5 or 6 drivers is so close that for that driver to win a race at any circuit, he must have luck, the best set up for the track and weather conditions, and a modicum of bad luck to affect his adversaries.

I agree.