Cosworth

[Easy Drifter]

Has anyone considered just what the effect of the almost certain collapse of USF1 and likely failure of Campos will do to Cosworth?
If both teams had suceeded that is 36 engines required for the two teams for the year.
Now I doubt Cosworth has built the full number for any team as yet but I expect they now have about 8 to 10 engines built and not paid for. They will go to existing teams but that is a lot of money Cosworth would be expecting to get to underwrite the development of the current spec engine.

[Sonic]

Has anyone considered just what the effect of the almost certain collapse of USF1 and likely failure of Campos will do to Cosworth?
If both teams had suceeded that is 36 engines required for the two teams for the year.
Now I doubt Cosworth has built the full number for any team as yet but I expect they now have about 8 to 10 engines built and not paid for. They will go to existing teams but that is a lot of money Cosworth would be expecting to get to underwrite the development of the current spec engine.

Good point, and one that I hadn't considered. AFAIK the four new teams all received the first shipment of engines - and I would hope that Cossie demanded payment in advance for them so short term they should be OK. Long term? Campos look to be on the right track now so hopefully they'll have four teams running cossie for 2010 but who knows how many will remain loyal beyond that without the FIA forcing their hands.

[DazzlaF1]

Good point, and one that I hadn't considered. AFAIK the four new teams all received the first shipment of engines - and I would hope that Cossie demanded payment in advance for them so short term they should be OK. Long term? Campos look to be on the right track now so hopefully they'll have four teams running cossie for 2010 but who knows how many will remain loyal beyond that without the FIA forcing their hands.

My guess is the Cosworth contracts were only a condition for the entry process, after 2010, I think that the teams can do whatever they like in terms of engine supply, I remember hearing that Campos (when they were in a better state) were sounding out the possibility of Ferrari engines in 2011.

As for Campos's likely recovery, that can only be good news for cosworth seeing that its likely they'll get paid up. I wonder now though if they have a case against USF1 for breach of contract?

[Sonic]

My guess is the Cosworth contracts were only a condition for the entry process, after 2010, I think that the teams can do whatever they like in terms of engine supply, I remember hearing that Campos (when they were in a better state) were sounding out the possibility of Ferrari engines in 2011.

As for Campos's likely recovery, that can only be good news for cosworth seeing that its likely they'll get paid up. I wonder now though if they have a case against USF1 for breach of contract?

Not that USF1 has any money to be sued for.

[Saint Devote]

Cosworth has 2010 to demonstrate their engines. Williams say that the Cosworth is much better than the Toyota so Stefan GP is also a potential customer.

I think the engine manufacturer will be well prepared for eventuality - it is not a large auto coporation so they can react quickly.

[CNR]

http://www.cosworth.com/Default.aspx?id=1105159



Formula One media coverage is extensive and enjoys significant loyalty:

40% purchased a product or service of a sponsor[/*:m:3df9yz7n](Source: FIA survey)


http://www.cosworth.com/Default.aspx?id=1105179


Technology and hardware crossover potential into mixed competition in other regions

[christophulus]

Cosworth has 2010 to demonstrate their engines. Williams say that the Cosworth is much better than the Toyota so Stefan GP is also a potential customer.

I think the engine manufacturer will be well prepared for eventuality - it is not a large auto coporation so they can react quickly.

Absolutely. If the Williams is fast this year then Cosworth may become a viable option for the other teams. Especially if it's going to be the cheapest.

Besides, no "major" manufacturer is allowed to supply more than three teams with engines:


In order to ensure that the F1 grid is not dominated by one car manufacturer, the rules now state that “a major car manufacturer” (presumably this does not include Ferrari or Cosworth) will not be allowed to “directly or indirectly supply engines for more than three teams of two cars each – without the consent of the FIA”.

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/02/12/changes-to-the-f1-rules/

So that still leaves three or four teams for Cosworth to sell to!

[Somebody]

My guess is the Cosworth contracts were only a condition for the entry process, after 2010, I think that the teams can do whatever they like in terms of engine supply, I remember hearing that Campos (when they were in a better state) were sounding out the possibility of Ferrari engines in 2011.

They all signed three-year contracts. If they want out, they'll have to pay up.

[wedge]

Thank goodness for the homologation rules so they can add minor upgrades for next year's batch

[truefan72]

so after 3 weeks of testing, it is clear to me that the cosworths are easily the least powerful engine of the bunch. Not surprising, but a shame for the teams who probably thought that since Cosworth were a new supplier, they would art least have an advantage over Renault. To me Williams should have gone with Renault. Those other new entrants had no choice. and when stefan gp comes back with Toyota engines(along with their support) it will really put those teams in a loose loose position for a long while.

right now I would find every loophole to break the contract, or secure funding to pay out of the deal.

[nigelred5]

Well, iirc,at the time that Williams would have been making the engine decision, Renault was in quite a bit of hot water, and their future F1 participation was in serious doubt. Red bull was looking for other engines, not just for Mercedes power. It was very possible, and I believe it is still quite possible that Renault may well leave as a manufacturer. They are basically only. On the grid as an engine supplier and
minority partner in the team at this point, which I suspect was to avoid huge penalties that would have been levied after signing the new Concorde areement. I fully expect to see them be bought out of the team fully. I'd just as soon see all manufacturers involvement limited to an engine supplier role anyway.

[RS]

so after 3 weeks of testing, it is clear to me that the cosworths are easily the least powerful engine of the bunch.

How have you come to that conclusion?

[Sonic]

How have you come to that conclusion?

Indeed! Have you some secret data that no one else has found? Kovy, who as we all know has spent the last two years being pushed along by the engine regarded as the best, has been giving the Cossie glowing reviews.

The cosworths have been reliable and so far pretty fast.

[truefan72]

Well, iirc,at the time that Williams would have been making the engine decision, Renault was in quite a bit of hot water, and their future F1 participation was in serious doubt. Red bull was looking for other engines, not just for Mercedes power. It was very possible, and I believe it is still quite possible that Renault may well leave as a manufacturer. They are basically only. On the grid as an engine supplier and
minority partner in the team at this point, which I suspect was to avoid huge penalties that would have been levied after signing the new Concorde areement. I fully expect to see them be bought out of the team fully. I'd just as soon see all manufacturers involvement limited to an engine supplier role anyway.
ok, good point

[truefan72]

Indeed! Have you some secret data that no one else has found? Kovy, who as we all know has spent the last two years being pushed along by the engine regarded as the best, has been giving the Cossie glowing reviews.

The cosworths have been reliable and so far pretty fast.

reliable: maybe yes, fast& powerful: less so than their competitors.

As expected I think the cosy's will be fairly reliable during the season, but will not have the power to keep up with the other 3. After 3 weeks of testing it seems pretty clear to me that the engine is down on power compared to the other 3. Lap times by themselves are no indicator, but when looking deeper into the times and relative fuel loads,as well as track conditions, it is clear that they are a bit less competitive as the other 3. This is no great mystery and please don't pretend like this is not the case.

Can you tell me with a straight face that you think the cosworth engines are better or even equal to the Ferrari, Mercedes, or Renault engines. If your answer is no, as I suspect it is, then obviously the cosworth engine is less powerful right?

[Sonic]

No. Not better than a Merc or Ferrari - Kovy has said as much. However, according to Williams there new Cossies are better than the Toyota's that they replaced - an engine that was on par with the Renault. So I would suggest that the Cosworth and Renault are similar on power (perhaps 30-50bhp down depending on who you believe) and will be split by things like fuel comsumption and reliability rather than out and out grunt.

[wedge]

Can you tell me with a straight face that you think the cosworth engines are better or even equal to the Ferrari, Mercedes, or Renault engines. If your answer is no, as I suspect it is, then obviously the cosworth engine is less powerful right?

Not that I think Cosworth is equal to Ferrari or M-B but Valencia and Jerez circuits are hardly a test of how powerful the engine is.

They started off with a good engine in 2006 but could never the development resources of the big guns and poor reliability allegedly due to William's exhaust.