UK General Election 2010

[Mark]

Well, the election is on its way! Probably going to be some time in May. Will the Tories win as expected, or will Labour pull off a surprise win to stay in government. Or, more interestingly, will it be a draw?! (Hung parliament!) Vote for who you intend to vote for and we'll judge the mood. If you live outside the UK you can vote too "just a bit of fun!"

[Daniel]

Well, the election is on its way! Probably going to be some time in May. Will the Tories win as expected, or will Labour pull off a surprise win to stay in government. Or, more interestingly, will it be a draw?! (Hung parliament!) Vote for who you intend to vote for and we'll judge the mood. If you live outside the UK you can vote too "just a bit of fun!"
Tories can't lose really.....

[MrJan]

Tories will walk it. Stupid IMO as people won't actually be voting for them, just against Labour.

I on the other hand will not bother wasting my time with it all. I know people disagree and saying the right to vote is important but I think that I should exercise that right as I feel is necessary, if that means a no show then so be it. Harumph :D

[Daniel]

Tories will walk it. Stupid IMO as people won't actually be voting for them, just against Labour.

I on the other hand will not bother wasting my time with it all. I know people disagree and saying the right to vote is important but I think that I should exercise that right as I feel is necessary, if that means a no show then so be it. Harumph :D
Sadly this is true. IMHO the Tories have done nothing to show why people should vote for them, all they've done is show why people shouldn't vote for Labour

[Hondo]

Fiero's Party leads by 100 %!

I voted the "other" choice. If you had listed the BNP, I would have voted for them and here's why.

In the last couple of years, on both sides of the Atlantic, the major parties have done as they pleased to protect and enrich themselves and their friends while pissing on the people they are supposed to represent. It seems like daily there is a new story about expenses, corruption, sleeping around, and political favoritism. Too many doing the party's business instead of the people's business.

Since our asleep at the wheel masses put Obama in office, he has been exposed as a bumbling liar with an agenda far more radical than Americans with their core values care to embrace. This has awakened the great American "Silent Majority" with a passion and they have come out fighting and fighting mad. The level of accountability Americans are now demanding from their representives has many retiring, refusing to run again, or dropping out of races. That's a good thing. They know they will represent their people as they wish to be represented or they will be dismissed.

Maybe a few more BNP seats will wake your core parties up and breathe new life into the people to take control of their government again.

[Daniel]

Fiero's Party leads by 100 %!

I voted the "other" choice. If you had listed the BNP, I would have voted for them and here's why.

In the last couple of years, on both sides of the Atlantic, the major parties have done as they pleased to protect and enrich themselves and their friends while pissing on the people they are supposed to represent. It seems like daily there is a new story about expenses, corruption, sleeping around, and political favoritism. Too many doing the party's business instead of the people's business.

Since our asleep at the wheel masses put Obama in office, he has been exposed as a bumbling liar with an agenda far more radical than Americans with their core values care to embrace. This has awakened the great American "Silent Majority" with a passion and they have come out fighting and fighting mad. The level of accountability Americans are now demanding from their representives has many retiring, refusing to run again, or dropping out of races. That's a good thing. They know they will represent their people as they wish to be represented or they will be dismissed.

Maybe a few more BNP seats will wake your core parties up and breathe new life into the people to take control of their government again.
If you want to make a protest vote then vote for the Lib dem's. The BNP are too wrong to vote for even just as a protest vote.

[Hondo]

If you want to make a protest vote then vote for the Lib dem's. The BNP are too wrong to vote for even just as a protest vote.

No. If I tap you with a twig, you may ignore it. If I lay you out with a tree limb, you'll probably ask if I want something.

[Daniel]

No. If I tap you with a twig, you may ignore it. If I lay you out with a tree limb, you'll probably ask if I want something.
The BNP is easily painted as a party full of idiots and dismissed just as easily.

[Hondo]

The BNP is easily painted as a party full of idiots and dismissed just as easily.

So were the Nazi's.

[MrJan]

BNP is a dangerous vote. They will have a fair number of people voting for them and they are not the sort of people you want in any sort of power, not least because of their far right values but also because they base all their policies on 'British Britain' and have very few ideas outside of that.

[V12]

BNP is a dangerous vote. They will have a fair number of people voting for them and they are not the sort of people you want in any sort of power, not least because of their far right values but also because they base all their policies on 'British Britain' and have very few ideas outside of that.

I agree - but until many of the "mainstream" parties understand that being opposed to rampant unquestioned multiculturalism, and certain religious dogma, doesn't make you the second coming of Adolf Hitler, and frame their own policies accordingly, some people will feel like they have no choice

[Mark]

So were the Nazi's.

I invoke Godwin's law.

[Daniel]

I invoke Godwin's law.
I counter that with anti-Godwins law.

[wedge]

Maybe a few more BNP seats will wake your core parties up and breathe new life into the people to take control of their government again.

That's like mixing faeces with urine

[Hondo]

[quote="wedge"]That's like mixing faeces with urine[/QUOTE

Traditionl English dish?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I voted Lib Dem in the Euro elections and I will vote Lib Dem in the General Election.

I suppose in a way this means I can complain with the government whoever wins, because it is either going to be Tory or Labour. If you don't vote you can't complain.

[Hondo]

I agree - but until many of the "mainstream" parties understand that being opposed to rampant unquestioned multiculturalism, and certain religious dogma, doesn't make you the second coming of Adolf Hitler, and frame their own policies accordingly, some people will feel like they have no choice



Anybody can say what they want about them but they gained positions. So for all attempts to make them out as hapless bumpkins and the ridicule of their doctrine, they got in anyway. That means a certain amount of people agree with them at least in part. It definately means those people don't like what was being done or how it was being done. The EU is the same old weak EU. The Euro is in danger because of the debt level of some EU members. Britain is allowing former colonials and other immigrants to come and dictate terms to Britain on it's own ground.

I can see where the BNP would be attractive, especially to older Britons that remenber days when they didn't have to kiss anybody's butt.

[Hondo]

I voted Lib Dem in the Euro elections and I will vote Lib Dem in the General Election.

I suppose in a way this means I can complain with the government whoever wins, because it is either going to be Tory or Labour. If you don't vote you can't complain.

If you pay taxes, you can complain. Voting is not required for complaint.

[Daniel]

I can see where the BNP would be attractive, especially to older Britons that remenber days when they didn't have to kiss anybody's butt.

not to be rude but quite frankly I don't think youhave an idea about what'd going on in the UK, just as I don't have an idea about what's going on in the US.

[Hondo]

I don't mind you being rude, but quite frankly, I don't think most of the people in the UK have a clue what is sneaking up on them and don't believe it when they are told.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Anybody can say what they want about them but they gained positions. So for all attempts to make them out as hapless bumpkins and the ridicule of their doctrine, they got in anyway. That means a certain amount of people agree with them at least in part. It definately means those people don't like what was being done or how it was being done.

There are plenty of 'alternative' parties out there to vote for before the BNP. Voting for them would give the racist party more power at local government level.


The EU is the same old weak EU.

The same EU that is economically more powerful than the US and provides millions of jobs in the UK?


The Euro is in danger because of the debt level of some EU members. Britain is allowing former colonials and other immigrants to come and dictate terms to Britain on it's own ground.

No we aren't. I have no problems with 'former colonials' coming over here to work. They are part of our heritage.



I can see where the BNP would be attractive, especially to older Britons that remenber days when they didn't have to kiss anybody's butt.

Put simply, anyone who would vote BNP is, in political terms, a moron.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

If you pay taxes, you can complain. Voting is not required for complaint.

If you pay taxes you have the right to all the services that your taxes provide, it doesn't give you the right to complain about the government if you didn't bother voting.

[Hondo]

The EU provides millions of jobs in the UK?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

The EU provides millions of jobs in the UK?

There are millions of jobs in the UK as a result of the EU.


A simplified case:
Take the Nissan car plant in the North East. Nissan wanted a car plant in an EU country so they could avoid the EU import tariffs, and improve there competitiveness in the European market. If we left the EU then Nissan would have no option but to move production from the UK to another country in the EU. Thousands of jobs would be lost overnight.

There are hundreds of examples like this.

[wedge]

I don't mind you being rude, but quite frankly, I don't think most of the people in the UK have a clue what is sneaking up on them and don't believe it when they are told.

Yes they do because there's a deep void in UK politics.

[Mark]

Britain is allowing former colonials .

You're about 50 years out of date at least there.

[Hondo]

So you don't have millions whose paycheck is issued by the EU. Gotcha. What you have is British and other companies in the UK producing valuable goods or services for sale or lease in the export market. Some part of this export market are countries that
are members of the EU and that guarantees you a market share you might not otherwise have? Does that not also obligate you to open your markets to goods and services provided by other EU members to the detriment UK based businesses? If there were no EU, would you cease to export goods?

You got the Nissan plant because Nissan wanted to build it there. If push came to shove, they would build it where they wanted and pass any taxes or tariffs on in thr price of the car. Think about this long and hard "wanted a car plant in an EU country so they could avoid the EU import tariffs". Does that that mean that being in the EU is, in reality, forcing companies to give you jobs and market share? Briton isn't on the Euro is it?

[Garry Walker]

Being not from UK, I obviously cant vote, but id vote for BNP in a heartbeat :up:

[Robinho]

if the BNP gain any sort of power where i live i will move away, i refuse to be represented by these braindead morons.

if they gain any level of power nationally i will emigrate for the same reasons.

they are just the same as any radical islamists, just trying to start a fight from the other side. we don't need any of either side representing anyone if we want any sort of a country that is worth living in

[MrJan]

If you don't vote you can't complain.

Balls!!! Say I went and voted Green Party, safe in the knowledge that they won't win, how would that give me more right to complain than someone who elected to not vote at all?

My vote is to not vote, by being a no show I am representing voter apathy and showing that no candidate is worthing moving for.

[Sonic]

This week, I will mostly be voting for, Lib Dems.

It is partially a protest vote as I do not agree with Cameron and his cronies playing to the fears of the public with their "broken britain" bs, especially when I've yet to hear them come up with any solid plans about how to sort anything.

But I have to say the Lib Dems have been right on the money regarding several key issues and coupled with the ration protest votes (as opposed to the insan protest of voting BNP) they could well spring a surprise or two.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

So you don't have millions whose paycheck is issued by the EU. Gotcha. What you have is British and other companies in the UK producing valuable goods or services for sale or lease in the export market. Some part of this export market are countries that
are members of the EU and that guarantees you a market share you might not otherwise have? Does that not also obligate you to open your markets to goods and services provided by other EU members to the detriment UK based businesses? If there were no EU, would you cease to export goods?


The EU is generally very good at distributing its wealth through trade. So all EU countries should benefit. Ireland for example was the poorest nation when it joined the ECC. A few years ago it became the 2nd richest!


You got the Nissan plant because Nissan wanted to build it there. If push came to shove, they would build it where they wanted and pass any taxes or tariffs on in thr price of the car. Think about this long and hard "wanted a car plant in an EU country so they could avoid the EU import tariffs". Does that that mean that being in the EU is, in reality, forcing companies to give you jobs and market share? Briton isn't on the Euro is it?

The Nissan plant is here because our government wanted it more than any of the other EU governments. Europe is one of Nissans biggest markets, they wouldn't stand a chance here if they had to ship in cars from outside the EU and pass on the import tariffs to their prices. Same can be said for Honda and Toyota (lol).

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Balls!!! Say I went and voted Green Party, safe in the knowledge that they won't win, how would that give me more right to complain than someone who elected to not vote at all?

My vote is to not vote, by being a no show I am representing voter apathy and showing that no candidate is worthing moving for.

Well in 6 months time when i see you posting and complaining about the Tories............................. :p

[UltimateDanGTR]

The only way Labour would win:

Not enough people who liked the other parties actually voted (which is quite possible) meanwhile all the unemployed biggots on benefits vote labour so they can keep all their money for bringing **** all to the economy.

I hope this would not be the case.

anyway, I support the BNP, despite the media creating an image of the BNP being a bunch of racists. They are just trying to protect the interests of Britain, which for a british party is perfectly acceptable IMO. They are the party that see that the silly political correctness drivel that we get these days is ruining this nation, and they are not afraid to say it. I think that despite what many people percieve, the BNP isn't against a multicultural society, but rather is trying to protect against the extremes of one, which this nation is fast becoming.

I expect arrogant ones amongst you to look down on me as a nationalist. but, what I believe is what I believe......

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well I don't live in the UK, I care about what happens to it. I have to say, the BNP are just capitalizing on the distrust many feel for Labour and the Tories. The fact is many voting for the BNP are NOT likely racists, and likely not wanting to see all international co-operation in groups like the EC go away or for Britain for the "British" but they are likely voting in protest for the politically correct stupidity that has crept into British politics. Over here, we see stories all the time from the UK on some of the battles going on, and it seems to me the Conservatives have drifted to the center where the Labour party had drifted to under Blair. You have your two biggest parties basically occupying the same space, and the Lib Democrats not saying much of what they would do different. There is NO alternatives, and to an extent it mirrored what was evident here in Canada up til about 6 years ago. Given a lack of choice, people will search for it.

Personally, I am a right of center voter, but if I lived in the UK, I would look at the BNP as a joke and NEVER give them my vote; but I can say from what I have learned about UK politics, I think spoiling my ballot would be justified....

[Sonic]

The only way Labour would win:

Not enough people who liked the other parties actually voted (which is quite possible) meanwhile all the unemployed biggots on benefits vote labour so they can keep all their money for bringing **** all to the economy.

I hope this would not be the case.

anyway, I support the BNP, despite the media creating an image of the BNP being a bunch of racists. They are just trying to protect the interests of Britain, which for a british party is perfectly acceptable IMO. They are the party that see that the silly political correctness drivel that we get these days is ruining this nation, and they are not afraid to say it. I think that despite what many people percieve, the BNP isn't against a multicultural society, but rather is trying to protect against the extremes of one, which this nation is fast becoming.

I expect arrogant ones amongst you to look down on me as a nationalist. but, what I believe is what I believe......

I may be wrong but didn't the BNP try to ban anyone who wasn't white and British from joining their party? Doesn't sound very multicultural to me.

Ps I don't look down on you as a Nationalist - that's the beauty of our way of life - everyone is free to believe what they wish, and I think you were brave to post. :)

[Macd]

Would never dream of voting for the torries.
Labour have had their time. Either Lib Dems or SNP.

[Hondo]

The only way Labour would win:

Not enough people who liked the other parties actually voted (which is quite possible) meanwhile all the unemployed biggots on benefits vote labour so they can keep all their money for bringing **** all to the economy.

I hope this would not be the case.

anyway, I support the BNP, despite the media creating an image of the BNP being a bunch of racists. They are just trying to protect the interests of Britain, which for a british party is perfectly acceptable IMO. They are the party that see that the silly political correctness drivel that we get these days is ruining this nation, and they are not afraid to say it. I think that despite what many people percieve, the BNP isn't against a multicultural society, but rather is trying to protect against the extremes of one, which this nation is fast becoming.

I expect arrogant ones amongst you to look down on me as a nationalist. but, what I believe is what I believe......

SALUTE my son! Well said! Send the righteously effete, whining masses running to their Xenophobe signs in protest of your desire to protect the culture that made Briton, Great Briton.

[Daniel]

The only way Labour would win:

Not enough people who liked the other parties actually voted (which is quite possible) meanwhile all the unemployed biggots on benefits vote labour so they can keep all their money for bringing **** all to the economy.

I hope this would not be the case.

anyway, I support the BNP, despite the media creating an image of the BNP being a bunch of racists. They are just trying to protect the interests of Britain, which for a british party is perfectly acceptable IMO. They are the party that see that the silly political correctness drivel that we get these days is ruining this nation, and they are not afraid to say it. I think that despite what many people percieve, the BNP isn't against a multicultural society, but rather is trying to protect against the extremes of one, which this nation is fast becoming.

I expect arrogant ones amongst you to look down on me as a nationalist. but, what I believe is what I believe......

I don't look down upon you because you're a nationalist, I look down upon you because you're so ignorant that you don't see that the BNP are a racist organisation who would like to see people like this man
http://www.gnation.co.cc/_/rsrc/1238747844470/contact-us/6.jpg
out of the UK

and would rather have more of these

http://www.that-dj.com/wp-content/uploads/image/chav.JPG

Keeping foreigners out isn't the solution to any of Britain's problems.

You're a twonk.

[Daniel]

SALUTE my son! Well said! Send the righteously effete, whining masses running to their Xenophobe signs in protest of your desire to protect the culture that made Briton, Great Briton.

BS..... Britain is also built on the back of immigrants. I bet IgnorantDanGTR happily sits down with his Turkish kebab or Indian/Bangladeshi curry once a week and enjoys it. Whilst IgnorantDanGTR might not be racist like them, he's part of the problem if he doesn't realise what they really are.

[Hondo]

You can enjoy someone's menu without the individual.

He could make the same observation about you not seeing a danger. Only time will tell.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

You can enjoy someone's menu without the individual.

He could make the same observation about you not seeing a danger. Only time will tell.

The BNP are a bigger danger than any immigrant.

The UK economy will rely on immigrants in the future because we have an aging population.

[Daniel]

You can enjoy someone's menu without the individual.

He could make the same observation about you not seeing a danger. Only time will tell.

Oh FFS I'm a foreigner in this country. If you want to get rid of every Polish person or every Asian then you have to get rid of me too :laugh: Then you have to get rid of my brother and his wife though I guess their son can stay as he was born here :rotflmao:

Foreigners have been a scapegoat for problems since before Jesus was meant to be around and people are still falling for this.

[Sonic]

The only way Labour would win:

Not enough people who liked the other parties actually voted (which is quite possible) meanwhile all the unemployed biggots on benefits vote labour so they can keep all their money for bringing **** all to the economy.

I hope this would not be the case.

anyway, I support the BNP, despite the media creating an image of the BNP being a bunch of racists. They are just trying to protect the interests of Britain, which for a british party is perfectly acceptable IMO. They are the party that see that the silly political correctness drivel that we get these days is ruining this nation, and they are not afraid to say it. I think that despite what many people percieve, the BNP isn't against a multicultural society, but rather is trying to protect against the extremes of one, which this nation is fast becoming.

I expect arrogant ones amongst you to look down on me as a nationalist. but, what I believe is what I believe......

I may be wrong but didn't the BNP try to ban anyone who wasn't white and British from joining their party? Doesn't sound very multicultural to me.

Ps I don't look down on you as a Nationalist - that's the beauty of our way of life - everyone is free to believe what they wish, and I think you were brave to post. :)

[Macd]

I fear I may be jumping in to a large argument here. I feel the BNP ARE WRONG. Just get that out there before someone calls me a xenophobe. But other parties have to sit up and take note, people are sick of paying taxes for people who come to this country and contribute nothing. I have nothing against immigration but the lay abouts that come here and get a house, money, incapacity benefit are the ones that piss me off while British citizens, be they white, black, asian what ever, are starving and living on the steets in immense poverty. The main partys need to realise this soon or the BNP will win more voters everyday.

[Rollo]

I suppose voting Tory can't hurt that much any more because there's nothing left for them to bugger up, privatise and sell. Though members from both parties have been rorting the system and have been "house flipping" and claiming expenses on moats and duck islands, etc. Is David Cameron's house the right way up yet from being flipped so often?

The BNP are a pack of belligerent, xenophobic racist, homophobes, but is that any different to the House of Lords?

The only Party with any real policies worth voting for is the Official Monster Raving Loony Party.

[Daniel]

I fear I may be jumping in to a large argument here. I feel the BNP ARE WRONG. Just get that out there before someone calls me a xenophobe. But other parties have to sit up and take note, people are sick of paying taxes for people who come to this country and contribute nothing. I have nothing against immigration but the lay abouts that come here and get a house, money, incapacity benefit are the ones that piss me off while British citizens, be they white, black, asian what ever, are starving and living on the steets in immense poverty. The main partys need to realise this soon or the BNP will win more voters everyday.

I suspect though that the number of immigrants sitting around doing nothing is minimal compared to the number of native Brits sitting around doing nothing.

[Daniel]

I suppose voting Tory can't hurt that much any more because there's nothing left for them to bugger up, privatise and sell. Though members from both parties have been rorting the system and have been "house flipping" and claiming expenses on moats and duck islands, etc. Is David Cameron's house the right way up yet from being flipped so often?

The BNP are a pack of belligerent, xenophobic racist, homophobes, but is that any different to the House of Lords?

The only Party with any real policies worth voting for is the Official Monster Raving Loony Party.

You can't speak! You're a immigant too!!!!!! You know what really aggravazes me? It's them immigants. They wants all the benefits of living in the UK, but they ain't even bother to learn themselves the language

[Macd]

I suspect though that the number of immigrants sitting around doing nothing is minimal compared to the number of native Brits sitting around doing nothing.

Yes but its extra ones we do not need. We need to get our own people jobs before accepting half the world across our borders.

[Daniel]

Yes but its extra ones we do not need. We need to get our own people jobs before accepting half the world across our borders.

I suspect though that the benefits of having immigrants in the UK far outweigh the negatives though.

[Macd]

I suspect though that the benefits of having immigrants in the UK far outweigh the negatives though.

Yes but ones that work. Are you even listening to what I was saying?

[Daniel]

Yes but ones that work. Are you even listening to what I was saying?
So what's your solution? Put a box on the immigration form that says are you going to work? Yes/No?

[Macd]

You cannot deny people entry into a country because of where they are from. They should be allowed in on the basis that they can contribute to the economy and the country as a whole. Be they a doctor, lawyer, cleaner or a kebab shop owner. But people who entry this country on the underside of a eurostar should be instantly deported. If I break the law I would be sent to prison. Perhaps applying for immigration before you arrive like they do in the usa?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

In my opinion immigration play a far bigger role in politics than it should do.

Policing, health, education, defence are all more important.

[Macd]

In my opinion immigration play a far bigger role in politics than it should do.

Policing, health, education, defence are all more important.

I also agree. But immigration is the argument here....

Policing : More of them
Health : Less competitive tendering, more nationalisation
Education : Less budget cuts, less bureaucracy
Defence : GTFO the middle east.


Simples, Me for PM :P

[Sonic]

To move away from BNP for a sec, I see no ones has voted Labour yet.

I know its a very small sample size, but if the poll I saw yesterday was to be believed the parties lined up as follows;

Conservative - 40%
Labour - 30%
Lib Dems - 20%

So based on our poll so far its gonna be a landslide.

[Hondo]

The BNP are a bigger danger than any immigrant.

The UK economy will rely on immigrants in the future because we have an aging population.

Common among countries with higher standards of living is the attitude that some jobs are now beneath their dignity to perform, so you encourge immigration to fill those low level jobs while citizens kick back on the dole and bitch about immigrants taking all the jobs. You can see that big dog chasing his own tail coming again, can't you?

Not only do you have an aging population, you also have fewer good jobs available. Some don't exist anymore, some have gone overseas, and some you simply won't do. The trick in any heavily socialized society is balance. You are an island and only have so much space available. You are a small island have very limited natural resources available for manufacturing. With the exception of expanding export markets you have to be careful and limit growth because you have no place to grow into. As the number of jobs shrinks and but the cost of welfare, retirement pensions, other social programs, and government grows you soon find yourself where you just about are now. Unable to sustain what you have created at a tax rate that the still productive are willing to accept. If I were the government those on the dole would be used to fill jobs taken by immigrants before I'd allow increased immigration. If they refused the jobs, their benefits would be cut off. In all fairness, you'd just be buying time because you're living on a Ponzi pyramid scheme anyway. The first ones in get paid, the ones that come in later get stiffed because there's no way to bring in enough money to keep it alive.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Common among countries with higher standards of living is the attitude that some jobs are now beneath their dignity to perform, so you encourge immigration to fill those low level jobs while citizens kick back on the dole and bitch about immigrants taking all the jobs. You can see that big dog chasing his own tail coming again, can't you?

Not only do you have an aging population, you also have fewer good jobs available. Some don't exist anymore, some have gone overseas, and some you simply won't do. The trick in any heavily socialized society is balance. You are an island and only have so much space available. You are a small island have very limited natural resources available for manufacturing. With the exception of expanding export markets you have to be careful and limit growth because you have no place to grow into. As the number of jobs shrinks and but the cost of welfare, retirement pensions, other social programs, and government grows you soon find yourself where you just about are now. Unable to sustain what you have created at a tax rate that the still productive are willing to accept. If I were the government those on the dole would be used to fill jobs taken by immigrants before I'd allow increased immigration. If they refused the jobs, their benefits would be cut off. In all fairness, you'd just be buying time because you're living on a Ponzi pyramid scheme anyway. The first ones in get paid, the ones that come in later get stiffed because there's no way to bring in enough money to keep it alive.

So basically you are saying that the UK should go and gain a new empire so we have more space? :p

[Sonic]

So basically you are saying that the UK should go and gain a new empire so we have more space? :p

I'm up for that! :D

Shall we start with the old colonies? ;)

Or perhaps a space program - no wait, that's a different thread.

[Robinho]

back to the BNP, i honestly think that the people who try to make out that they are a genuine party who are protecting the interests of "Britain", are kidding themselves that they are not pandering to the unspoken core of the party and that is they are anti non white british and will do anything they can to put "white britains" ahead of everyone else in society in every way they can.

they have cleverly targetted a large swathe of the population who i feel are politically ignorant and played on their fears by making them scared that the evil immigrants are going to take their benefits, houses and for a few their jobs. all they are doing is fuelling an ignorance of the facts in the immigration and benfits systems and fuelling intolerance further increasing tension on both sides of the cultural divide.

if the core following of the party actually did anything to contribute to society then maybe i could find a little respect for them, but it makes me cringingly ashamed to call myself British when i see and hear these guys in action, togther with the chav army calling themselves the English Defence league.

[Hondo]

In my opinion immigration play a far bigger role in politics than it should do.

Policing, health, education, defence are all more important.

Policing How about just giving UK citizens the right, and far more liberal rights in self defense, defense of third party, and defense of property? Will you guys stand or cut and run?

Health Whats the matter with health? You keep telling us how good it is. Maybe you should use it less. How many times do you have to go to a doctor and have him tell you you have a cold before you can figure that out on your own?

Education You can take good students from homes that appreciate a good education and take an active interest in their children's education, schoolwork, and manners, send them to a poor school and they will still be good students. Take poor students that have little or no guidence, support or enforcement at home, send them to a fine school and they'll still be poor students. Fix the home first, then see how the schools are doing. You might be surprised at what you find.

Defence What are you defending against? Russia and China are your friends. There is no more Communist Great Satan trying to take over the world. You don't believe al-Qaeda or the Taliban want a piece of you. You want to barbeque the man that lent your support to ridding the world of an individual that was dangerously unpredictable and a constant threat that no government misses. You don't need defence.

[Hondo]

So basically you are saying that the UK should go and gain a new empire so we have more space? :p

Actually, yes.

[Daniel]

Policing How about just giving UK citizens the right, and far more liberal rights in self defense, defense of third party, and defense of property? Will you guys stand or cut and run?

Because British people aren't able to arm themselves to the teeth the amount of guns on the street is very low and therefore gun crime is very low in comparison with the UK. We don't need to have more rights to defend ourselves and most people who have brains have their property insured so if some tea leave takes it they are covered.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Health Whats the matter with health? You keep telling us how good it is. Maybe you should use it less. How many times do you have to go to a doctor and have him tell you you have a cold before you can figure that out on your own?

We like the NHS and, despite what the Conservatives say, they are more likely to ruin it.



Defence What are you defending against? Russia and China are your friends. There is no more Communist Great Satan trying to take over the world. You don't believe al-Qaeda or the Taliban want a piece of you. You want to barbeque the man that lent your support to ridding the world of an individual that was dangerously unpredictable and a constant threat that no government misses. You don't need defence.

Britain has a proud military history and we punch well above our weight with our military. I still don't believe Russia are friends, especially when they are still sending military planes into our airspace.

Plus, we still have plenty of international interests. (such as our oil on The Falklands that the Argies aren't having :p )

[Robinho]

Policing How about just giving UK citizens the right, and far more liberal rights in self defense, defense of third party, and defense of property? Will you guys stand or cut and run?

Health Whats the matter with health? You keep telling us how good it is. Maybe you should use it less. How many times do you have to go to a doctor and have him tell you you have a cold before you can figure that out on your own?

Education You can take good students from homes that appreciate a good education and take an active interest in their children's education, schoolwork, and manners, send them to a poor school and they will still be good students. Take poor students that have little or no guidence, support or enforcement at home, send them to a fine school and they'll still be poor students. Fix the home first, then see how the schools are doing. You might be surprised at what you find.

Defence What are you defending against? Russia and China are your friends. There is no more Communist Great Satan trying to take over the world. You don't believe al-Qaeda or the Taliban want a piece of you. You want to barbeque the man that lent your support to ridding the world of an individual that was dangerously unpredictable and a constant threat that no government misses. You don't need defence.

we have very good rights of self defense - you can defend yourself with reasonable force, to the point of killing someone if your life is put at risk.

you can protect your property with force also, although the law puts life ahead of property so unless your life is also in danger then you should avoid lethal force when defending your property.

if you believe the press this is not the case. if you find someone in your house and shoot them in the back, killing them, then the law states that is too much. IMO rightly so. if you pick up something that is to hand and batter an intruder unconcious when they were coming towards you then fair play.

there was a recent case where a gang broke into a families house, tied them up, threatened, beat and robbed them. the father and one son got free and chased the gang as they left, catching and savagley beating one member with a cricket bat, outside on the street. the intruder was left brain damaged. the father who was initially jailed was recently released on appeal due to the extreme nature of the attack that was made on his family and the state of mind this left him in. but we have no rights to protect ourselves do we?!

the Healthcare system is not the best it could be at the moment, but its there for everyone, accessible and in the vast majority of cases everything you wil ever need. stadard could be better in certain areas, but its a hige system and the infrastructure is ancient in some pleaces, so it can be improved, but is being done is many areas. we are also free to supplement with private healthcare provision.

i agree with you on education, the system is not a bad one, but the focus in underacheiving areas is in the wrong place. we have a generation of parents who either don't have a clue what they are doing or don't care and leave everything to the system. kids are sponges, the more you give them from a young age the better student they'll be. stuff them full of crap food, crap telly and computer games and you'll get a vegetable.

National defence - i very much believe that the Taliban and Al Queda want a piece of us. but the current plan of fighting fire with fire is just making things worse. i don't have the answer, but there has to be a way of avoiding kids turning to extremism, at home or abroad. if the alternative is better then why blow yourself and everyone up or join a jihad. we need to work with these countries and cultures so we understand each other and perhaps offer a better alternative to hating the west, like working with us maybe. but that will take years to acheive. the stick isn't working on its own, carrot needs improving IMO.

[Daniel]

there was a recent case where a gang broke into a families house, tied them up, threatened, beat and robbed them. the father and one son got free and chased the gang as they left, catching and savagley beating one member with a cricket bat, outside on the street. the intruder was left brain damaged. the father who was initially jailed was recently released on appeal due to the extreme nature of the attack that was made on his family and the state of mind this left him in. but we have no rights to protect ourselves do we?!

Listen, stop using proper examples and reasoning on this thread OK? If you don't start using false generalisations I'm going to have to report you to the moderators!!!!

[Hondo]

back to the BNP, i honestly think that the people who try to make out that they are a genuine party who are protecting the interests of "Britain", are kidding themselves that they are not pandering to the unspoken core of the party and that is they are anti non white british and will do anything they can to put "white britains" ahead of everyone else in society in every way they can.

they have cleverly targetted a large swathe of the population who i feel are politically ignorant and played on their fears by making them scared that the evil immigrants are going to take their benefits, houses and for a few their jobs. all they are doing is fuelling an ignorance of the facts in the immigration and benfits systems and fuelling intolerance further increasing tension on both sides of the cultural divide.

if the core following of the party actually did anything to contribute to society then maybe i could find a little respect for them, but it makes me cringingly ashamed to call myself British when i see and hear these guys in action, togther with the chav army calling themselves the English Defence league.

I would agree that race is a major part of their agenda. Racism is one of those human nature things that will always be with us. It's a damn shame that you have idiots like governments that perpetuate the illusion that making it illegal, makes it go away when it in fact changes nothing except how you sell the package. I personally don't have anything against it and have been on both ends of it. At least when it's out in the open it's up for discussion. Define racism. It's going to be different for different people. Some people are going to dislike other people based entirely on physical differences. Others accept different races, but not the crossbreeding between races, others may like negros and dislike Indians. Racism is not confined to white folks alone, in fact some races make white folks look like rookies. Media wise, it's always the terrible white folks browbeating their little brown brothers. Look at the hoopla the media made over Rhodesia as compared to what it says about the treatment of whites in Zimbabwe today.
If race is a part of that Party's platform, they should be allowed to talk about it. The people will decide what they want and what they don't want. As a general rule "leftist liberals" don't trust the people to make the proper decisions and think thats best left to the government.

Gotta be white to be in the BNP? So what. We have a thing over here called the Congressional Black Caucus composed of black congressional representitives. Many an effete white congressman has attempted to join in order to show soladarity with his oppressed black brothers, but sorry, blacks only. Can you imagine the howling outcry in the media if a black congressman was denied addmission into a white caucus group? lol, they'd be burning cars in D.C., Harlem and Atlanta.

[Rollo]

We like the NHS and, despite what the Conservatives say, they are more likely to ruin it.

The Tories would privatise and sell it, like they did with British Gas, British Steel, British Coal, British Rail, the electricity companies, the water industry, British Airways, BAC and then British Aerospace, British Leyland, Jaguar, and British Telecom.
Then the UK's health system would be as good as the United States... (see other threads)

[Mark in Oshawa]

The Tories would privatise and sell it, like they did with British Gas, British Steel, British Coal, British Rail, the electricity companies, the water industry, British Airways, BAC and then British Aerospace, British Leyland, Jaguar, and British Telecom.
Then the UK's health system would be as good as the United States... (see other threads)

In the case of just about all those companies, they could be money losers that were subsidizing people to work. When sold off, they either sunk or swam on their own merits. No matter who owns a company, it should make money if all it is a business. The NHS would be a public trust, and I think the Tories there would be idiots to dump it considering how you guys view it on here but then again, are the posters on this board from the UK atypical Britons?

The view Fiero asserts that the BNP is talking to people who are not being heard by the mainline parties is very true IMO. I think tho any party who want to get elected on some sort of racist platform will be exposed in time. Then again, Labour has done their level best to govern political discourse when they ban people from entry into the UK based on "racist" or "unacceptable" views.

Then I heard today on a Canadian talk show (Charles Adler's nationallly syndicated broadcast) about a teacher in the UK being forced out of his job because his 8 year old students, mainly of Muslim oritentation told him they thought the 9/11 hijackers were heroes and they wanted to grow up and help in the Jihad. He tried to have something done about it...and he ended up resigning because the school board backed the students to have this point of view. Stuff like that you cannot just look at and accept there isn't some poisonious stuff coursing through the British nervous system.....and the BNP will feed off this like gasoline on a fire...

[Hondo]

I'm up for that! :D

Shall we start with the old colonies? ;)

Or perhaps a space program - no wait, that's a different thread.

Wouldn't make sense to go back to places you've already been thrown out of, those people are wise to you.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Wouldn't make sense to go back to places you've already been thrown out of, those people are wise to you.

Geeze, that is harsh...lol..they may come here then...

[Hondo]

there was a recent case where a gang broke into a families house, tied them up, threatened, beat and robbed them. the father and one son got free and chased the gang as they left, catching and savagley beating one member with a cricket bat, outside on the street. the intruder was left brain damaged. the father who was initially jailed was recently released on appeal due to the extreme nature of the attack that was made on his family and the state of mind this left him in. but we have no rights to protect ourselves do we?!

From my standpoint, the fact that the father was even jailed makes your rights sound dubious and open to much interpretation. However speaking for me alone, I suppose I don't view human life with any particular additional sanctity than other creatures. It's not like theres a shortage of us. As far as I'm concerned, when a human being initiates a criminal act against another or another's property, he has forfeited the expectation of any mercy from his intended victim when his plan goes awry.

Daniel points out he has insurance if his house is burglarized. Fine. You may lose heirloom or rare items that were dear to you or a loved one forever. The cost of your insurance will go up because you made a claim. If the actor is caught, theres no guarantee you'll get any of your possessions returned and the burglar will go to prison for a couple of years where you will feed him, clothe him, and house him. When he gets out, he can come hit you again.
No. Not me. But that's my choice. I have the right, but not the obligation to stand my ground or I can flee, shreiking like a woman, out the back door for the woods.

Either way, it wasn't me that started the dance, but it may be me that announces "last call".

[Mark in Oshawa]

there was a recent case where a gang broke into a families house, tied them up, threatened, beat and robbed them. the father and one son got free and chased the gang as they left, catching and savagley beating one member with a cricket bat, outside on the street. the intruder was left brain damaged. the father who was initially jailed was recently released on appeal due to the extreme nature of the attack that was made on his family and the state of mind this left him in. but we have no rights to protect ourselves do we?!

From my standpoint, the fact that the father was even jailed makes your rights sound dubious and open to much interpretation. However speaking for me alone, I suppose I don't view human life with any particular additional sanctity than other creatures. It's not like theres a shortage of us. As far as I'm concerned, when a human being initiates a criminal act against another or another's property, he has forfeited the expectation of any mercy from his intended victim when his plan goes awry.

Daniel points out he has insurance if his house is burglarized. Fine. You may lose heirloom or rare items that were dear to you or a loved one forever. The cost of your insurance will go up because you made a claim. If the actor is caught, theres no guarantee you'll get any of your possessions returned and the burglar will go to prison for a couple of years where you will feed him, clothe him, and house him. When he gets out, he can come hit you again.
No. Not me. But that's my choice. I have the right, but not the obligation to stand my ground or I can flee, shreiking like a woman, out the back door for the woods.

Either way, it wasn't me that started the dance, but it may be me that announces "last call".

Stop talking nonsense like protecting one's property. It isn't British apparently! Of course, it isn't much different here in Canada either. You can break into a man's home, get caught in the act and have the hell beat out of you, and you will serve next to no time while your "Victim" gets more time. PC stupidity meets the legal system. You Yank's and your 2nd Amendment show a different attitude and the only thing that makes it questionable is the number of gun murders in the US. That tho I put down to people not handling the freedom's they were given responsibily....whereas in the UK and Canada, somehow the state wants you to be disarmed while not actually protecting you in return. Isn't that the worst of both worlds?

[Rollo]

Policing How about just giving UK citizens the right, and far more liberal rights in self defense, defense of third party, and defense of property? Will you guys stand or cut and run?

Bill of Rights 1689:
Englishmen, as embodied by Parliament, possessed certain immutable civil and political rights. These include, but are not limited to:
- freedom to have arms for defence, suitable to their class status and as allowed by law

The Bill of Rights and the equivalent Scottish Claim of Right dates from 1689, some 99 years before the US Constitution became law in your country.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Bill of Rights 1689:
Englishmen, as embodied by Parliament, possessed certain immutable civil and political rights. These include, but are not limited to:
- freedom to have arms for defence, suitable to their class status and as allowed by law

The Bill of Rights and the equivalent Scottish Claim of Right dates from 1689, some 99 years before the US Constitution became law in your country.

Wise stuff Rollo....but I think that "suitable to their class status and as allowed by law" means whatever the government deems appropriate...which can be NO arms. THAT I think is Fiero's contention. The 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution is the right to bear arms .....and all that came with it (Not having the US Constitution around for light reading, I will not try to quote it and get it wrong); but I do know that it is to allow a militia and the citizenry to be armed so tyranny from the state is counter balanced. At least, that is the idea of what it was written for. I don't think the founding fathers of the US thought of UZI's and gangs cruising around in turf wars shooting up neighbourhoods...

There has to be some right of defense by citizenry....
The question is, what is justified and what is overkill? I suspect Fiero has one opinion, I have a more moderate view, and you have a much stricter interpretation.

[Captain VXR]

The only way Labour would win:

Not enough people who liked the other parties actually voted (which is quite possible) meanwhile all the unemployed biggots on benefits vote labour so they can keep all their money for bringing **** all to the economy.

I hope this would not be the case.

anyway, I support the BNP, despite the media creating an image of the BNP being a bunch of racists. They are just trying to protect the interests of Britain, which for a british party is perfectly acceptable IMO. They are the party that see that the silly political correctness drivel that we get these days is ruining this nation, and they are not afraid to say it. I think that despite what many people percieve, the BNP isn't against a multicultural society, but rather is trying to protect against the extremes of one, which this nation is fast becoming.

I expect arrogant ones amongst you to look down on me as a nationalist. but, what I believe is what I believe......
have you watched:
04QolIvfQEw

[Mark in Oshawa]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1249393/9-11-bombers-heroes-What-Muslim-children-told-Christian-teacher-forced-job-tolerating-racism.html#ixzz0f1Vl848q

This is the link to the story that was referred to on a Canadian talk show of a teacher basically walking away from his career when it was clear the school wouldn't back him in dealing with Muslim students. Thorny issue...free speech is never easy...

[Rollo]

Wise stuff Rollo....but I think that "suitable to their class status and as allowed by law" means whatever the government deems appropriate...which can be NO arms. THAT I think is Fiero's contention.

It would be wrong then.

The first five words in the Bill of Rights are Englishmen, as embodied by Parliament,. Parliament in other words both here and throughout other legislation should be subject to the will of the people.

Hence the reason for General Elections in the first place...

[wedge]

anyway, I support the BNP, despite the media creating an image of the BNP being a bunch of racists. They are just trying to protect the interests of Britain, which for a british party is perfectly acceptable IMO. They are the party that see that the silly political correctness drivel that we get these days is ruining this nation

I've read an idiotic article by a BNP member in its newspaper looking down on Lewis Hamilton and trumping Jenson Button whose foundings were based on skin colour and without any understanding of F1 or motor racing.

[Hondo]

Has it occurred to anybody that one reason the BNP is gaining popularity is because it's stand on racial identity appeals to a great many in Britain? These people don't put on a pair of Dockers and skip through flowery meadows pretending to love everybody and everything. They don't believe homosexuality is ok. They don't believe letting immigrants in and then having to provide for them out of government funds is a good idea. They see ever growing numbers of Arabs, Indians, Blacks, and Pakistanis and are concerned because they know these people will become political forces unto themselves. They are tired of watching immigrants march through their streets complaining about their hosts.

They are British citizens with legitimate concerns and worries that no longer have a way of addressing those concerns without being tagged with a superfluous label by those with self-decided superior intellect, open minds, and a far more advanced political doctrine, usually give us all you have and we'll take care of you.

Daniel, you're a living , breathing example. You say you are an immigrant. But you delight in castigating the BNP, made up of British citizens, and make light of their doctrine even though the core values of those people is what created the country you wanted to immigrate to. I know countries vary their immigration policies by the job market and I don't know what you do for a living, but if there was a British citizen quailified for that same job, you wouldn't have gotten it. Nothing personal. A country has an obligation to see to the employment of it's native sons before immigrants, unless as I stated, there is no citizen quailified for that job.

Maybe what makes the BNP doctrine so scary is the amount of people that believe in it.

[Daniel]

Has it occurred to anybody that one reason the BNP is gaining popularity is because it's stand on racial identity appeals to a great many in Britain? These people don't put on a pair of Dockers and skip through flowery meadows pretending to love everybody and everything. They don't believe homosexuality is ok. They don't believe letting immigrants in and then having to provide for them out of government funds is a good idea. They see ever growing numbers of Arabs, Indians, Blacks, and Pakistanis and are concerned because they know these people will become political forces unto themselves. They are tired of watching immigrants march through their streets complaining about their hosts.

They are British citizens with legitimate concerns and worries that no longer have a way of addressing those concerns without being tagged with a superfluous label by those with self-decided superior intellect, open minds, and a far more advanced political doctrine, usually give us all you have and we'll take care of you.

Daniel, you're a living , breathing example. You say you are an immigrant. But you delight in castigating the BNP, made up of British citizens, and make light of their doctrine even though the core values of those people is what created the country you wanted to immigrate to. I know countries vary their immigration policies by the job market and I don't know what you do for a living, but if there was a British citizen quailified for that same job, you wouldn't have gotten it. Nothing personal. A country has an obligation to see to the employment of it's native sons before immigrants, unless as I stated, there is no citizen quailified for that job.

Maybe what makes the BNP doctrine so scary is the amount of people that believe in it.

Dude, watch the video CaptainVXR posted and you'll see that it's all a front for racial hatred.

[Mark]

I ordered an Indian takeaway over the phone last night, I had trouble understanding the person at the other end, but it became clear towards the end of the coversation, it wasn't because he was Indian, he was clearly English but couldn't bothered to speak properly.

[Daniel]

I ordered an Indian takeaway over the phone last night, I had trouble understanding the person at the other end, but it became clear towards the end of the coversation, it wasn't because he was Indian, he was clearly English but couldn't bothered to speak properly.
Damn immigants!

[Daniel]

A great many? Approximately 600,000 in a country with a population of 61,612,300 people.

The fact that I know a few gay people and see this party stating that they would make homosexuality illegal is enough for me to think the BNP are a total joke. I've read some of their literature and it is racist whether they hide behind the "just looking after the British worker BS" or not.. They have ideals on who they would like to populate our great country, but I have seen little in their pledges which gives me confidence that they could handle the treasury and economy of the UK.

The UK is made up of so many different cultures you'd be hard pressed to find your average Joe on the street who is a pure bred Celt and has no links to mainland Europe. It would be like white America trying to create a heritage in a country made up of Ex-Europeans and multinational settlers with one race being chosen above any other. Its impossible to do and imoral.
So 1% eh? :)

[MrJan]

A country has an obligation to see to the employment of it's native sons before immigrants, unless as I stated, there is no citizen quailified for that job.

It shouldn't, British workers are largely s***. Lazy, talentless s who have forgotten how to work. The reason that Eastern Europeans are being employed is because they will do a similar job for the same money but will carry it out much faster and are happier to do overtime. There is a Lithuanian lad at work who will be first to the yard in the morning and work until 8 at night if required. His British colleagues will bugger off before 4 in the afternoon.

[Daniel]

It shouldn't, British workers are largely s***. Lazy, talentless s who have forgotten how to work. The reason that Eastern Europeans are being employed is because they will do a similar job for the same money but will carry it out much faster and are happier to do overtime. There is a Lithuanian lad at work who will be first to the yard in the morning and work until 8 at night if required. His British colleagues will bugger off before 4 in the afternoon.
You need only mention the British motor industry to prove your argument......

[Daniel]

If this British jobs for British worker rubbish was actually enforced and adopted by other countries for their own workers, you'd have over 2 million British people who currently work abroad in highly skilled professions, heading back to an already industry-less country full of positions offering minimum wage. Britain used to be the known as the "workshop" of the world, and now companies are heading to places like Hungary and the Czech Republic because people are willing to work long hours for considerably less. Unions have ruined this country IMO demanding more and more until we are at a point where we have priced ourselves out of the manufacturing industry. Its time we had a government who are willing to invest in this sector rather than investing more and more in wars and the civil service sectors.

The BNP simply don't have a clue.
:up:

[Hondo]

I watched the video.

I believe I addressed both the racist and homophobe doctrines which they are required to conceal because of dumbass laws. Take away the laws and they'll put their true colors on the front page again and people will know for sure what they're buying into.
Where they came from back whenever carries little weight with them, it's what they believe themselves to be now that counts.
I already addressed the home country workers elsewhere but will again. If they are capable of work, they will do so and do so properly, or there will be no benefits.
Yes, I would allow them to starve, but thats just me.

[Rollo]

I believe I addressed both the racist and homophobe doctrines which they are required to conceal because of dumbass laws. Take away the laws and they'll put their true colors on the front page again and people will know for sure what they're buying into.
Where they came from back whenever carries little weight with them, it's what they believe themselves to be now that counts.

Nick Griffin is the leader of the BNP and represented them on Question Time last October. Surely he'd be the spokesman for "what they believe themselves to be now"?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1221880/BNP-leader-Nick-Griffin-A-bigot-damned-vile-words.html
but anyone watching should remember that he is a self-confessed racist, homophobe and anti-Semite, who has been convicted of inciting racial hatred.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/oct/23/bnp-nick-griffin-question-time
"That audience was taken from a city that is no longer British ... That was not my country any more. Why not come down and do it in Thurrock, do it in Stoke, do it in Burnley?
Do it somewhere where there are still significant numbers of English and British people [living], and they haven't been ethnically cleansed from their own country."

Has Britain really been "ethinically cleansed"? What sort of language is this anyway? If that didn't put their "true colours" then I don't know what would.

[Mark]

One point to note is that if the tories get in. Then we'll have fundamentally different governments in Wales and Scotland to those running the country as whole. I can only see this increasing calls for Scottish independence.

[MrJan]

For some reason Nick Griffin reminds me of Randy from South Park :S I can't imagine why though.............. ;)




http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/5770/naggers.jpg

"The answer was 'naggers'" :laugh:

[Dave B]

Tories can't lose really.....
You'd think so, wouldn't you, but every time Cameron opens his stupid mouth he reminds me why they should never be allowed in power.

Labour are in so much doo-doo right now that all Cameron needs to do is be quiet and let them lose, but instead he keeps burbling out his idle thoughts through that flappy little gob of his every time a bandwagon passes within a few miles.

I'd like to see the LibDems have a crack at it, purely because they couldn't be any worse than the two real alternatives, but I'm firmly in the "anybody but Cameron" camp.

[Dave B]

The BNP simply don't have a clue.
BNP = Nazis in cheap suits.

[Mark]

The Tories aren't doing themselves any favours with "We'll cut spending straight away".

They were on the news last night canvassing peoples opinions and one woman said "I think Cameron will be okay, he seems like a good family man". Is that what we've come to, American style voting for the personality of the person rather than the policies they represent? :mark:

[Dave B]

These people [BNP] don't put on a pair of Dockers and skip through flowery meadows pretending to love everybody and everything.
Everything's not ok, but facism isn't the answer.


They don't believe homosexuality is ok.
It is, though. Or do you believe otherwise?


They don't believe letting immigrants in and then having to provide for them out of government funds is a good idea.
I'm descended from French and Irish immigrants if you go back far enough. "Sending the buggers back" isn't a policy.


They see ever growing numbers of Arabs, Indians, Blacks, and Pakistanis and are concerned because they know these people will become political forces unto themselves.
Big deal, the more the merrier. There's a hell of a lot of Brits living abroad, we wouldn't want to be hypocrites now would we?


A country has an obligation to see to the employment of it's native sons before immigrants, unless as I stated, there is no citizen quailified for that job.
In that case we'd best recall all the hundreds of thousand of Brits making a legitimate living all over the EU and beyond, hadn't we? You know, just so we're not being hypocrites again.


Maybe what makes the BNP doctrine so scary is the amount of people that believe in it.
No, what makes the BNP doctrine so scary is that it's racist, homophobic and ignorant.

[Daniel]

I'm firmly in the "anybody but Cameron" camp.

Ditto.

[Mark]

The BNP actually do more to damage the cause they are fighting for. They want curbs on immigration, there's nothing wrong with that per-se, we do need to limit the numbers coming into the country so our infrastructure is not overwhelmed. But they tie the whole thing up with just out and out racism, which results in any measures to limit immigration coming across as racist and less likely to be passed because you will be seen to be agreeing with the BNP!

[Mark]

"Sending the buggers back"

I know a good folk song along those lines :laugh:

[Mark in Oshawa]

It would be wrong then.

The first five words in the Bill of Rights are Englishmen, as embodied by Parliament,. Parliament in other words both here and throughout other legislation should be subject to the will of the people.

Hence the reason for General Elections in the first place...

The problem with that Rollo is how many politicians tell you the truth of what they will do before the election and after it...and how many times in history of democracies have the House of Commons or House of Representatives in the US passed laws against the Constitution?

I think it is a very good phrase in the Bill of Rights, but the barroom lawyer in me would like it a little more definiative in the sense that Parliament cant just mess with it.

I defer to you on your legal knowledge however....

[Mark in Oshawa]

The BNP actually do more to damage the cause they are fighting for. They want curbs on immigration, there's nothing wrong with that per-se, we do need to limit the numbers coming into the country so our infrastructure is not overwhelmed. But they tie the whole thing up with just out and out racism, which results in any measures to limit immigration coming across as racist and less likely to be passed because you will be seen to be agreeing with the BNP!

I heard on the radio last night in terms of ratio of intake to population, Canada is the biggest immigration nation in the world...and yet no party like the BNP has even been conteplated....wouldn't even get off the ground....

I think in Britain there is a latent fear of the outsider that needs to be addressed and at least looked at by the major parties. Many voting BNP I suggest are not the racists that the BNP appears to be....but are tired of taking British traditions and institutions and modifying them for the needs of people just off the plane or ferry. THAT is a concern I would suggest of not a racist, but someone who liked the UK the way it was....

[Sonic]

I'm descended from French and Irish immigrants if you go back far enough. "Sending the buggers back" isn't a policy.

Indeed - I should think there are very few people who could call themself 100% British. I'd quite enjoy it if Nick Griffin or his parties key members family trees were traced and see what "polution" there was to their "pure" British blood line - I expect we'd see a few faces similar to the expression as that on TV chefs' Ansleigh Harriott (sp?) when he found out he was related to a white slave trader.

[Daniel]

I heard on the radio last night in terms of ratio of intake to population, Canada is the biggest immigration nation in the world...and yet no party like the BNP has even been conteplated....wouldn't even get off the ground....

I think in Britain there is a latent fear of the outsider that needs to be addressed and at least looked at by the major parties. Many voting BNP I suggest are not the racists that the BNP appears to be....but are tired of taking British traditions and institutions and modifying them for the needs of people just off the plane or ferry. THAT is a concern I would suggest of not a racist, but someone who liked the UK the way it was....
The problem is that it's not the people just off the plane or the ferry that want to modify traditions etc, it's people who seem to make up rules on behalf of the migrants who do this. Caroline's had children of different faiths who don't like their children doing RE but there's never been an issue, most immigrants are sensible enough to realise that they're the ones who need to adapt or remove themselves from the sitaution. So for instance the kids who were Jehovah's witnesses just went out of class during RE lessons.

If you went to a strict Islamic country with your wife I'm sure you'd be happy enough for her to wear a headscarf rather than expecting a whole country to adapt to you. Likewise 99.99% of immigrants here are the same. It's a problem that's invented by the media (remember Dover being sold off to the frogs?) and certain extreme right political parties to further their causes because after all who in their right mind wouldn't be against christmas songs being banned etc etc?

[Daniel]

Indeed - I should think there are very few people who could call themself 100% British. I'd quite enjoy it if Nick Griffin or his parties key members family trees were traced and see what "polution" there was to their "pure" British blood line - I expect we'd see a few faces similar to the expression as that on TV chefs' Ansleigh Harriott (sp?) when he found out he was related to a white slave trader.
That was an amazing show. To see a person like Ainsley find out that his ancestor was a white slave owner was interesting.

[Dave B]

Nick Griffin on Who Do You Think You Are? would be the TV event of the year :D

[Daniel]

Nick Griffin on Who Do You Think You Are? would be the TV event of the year :D

Waste of time more like. We know who he is! He's an rs!

[Mark in Oshawa]

The problem is that it's not the people just off the plane or the ferry that want to modify traditions etc, it's people who seem to make up rules on behalf of the migrants who do this. Caroline's had children of different faiths who don't like their children doing RE but there's never been an issue, most immigrants are sensible enough to realise that they're the ones who need to adapt or remove themselves from the sitaution. So for instance the kids who were Jehovah's witnesses just went out of class during RE lessons.

If you went to a strict Islamic country with your wife I'm sure you'd be happy enough for her to wear a headscarf rather than expecting a whole country to adapt to you. Likewise 99.99% of immigrants here are the same. It's a problem that's invented by the media (remember Dover being sold off to the frogs?) and certain extreme right political parties to further their causes because after all who in their right mind wouldn't be against christmas songs being banned etc etc?

Most immigrants do try to adapt Daniel, I don't doubt it. The problem is as you say is those who make the changes to accomodate them. Look no further than my link above to the Cypriot born English teacher who had a class full of little Jihad kids...lol. The school board didn't want to back him in defending his own faith. The politically correct crowd is the problem, not the immigrant per se. The BNP is REACTING to the PC reaction to immigration. When you alter the greater society for the needs of people just off the boat, don't be surprised if there is a backlash. The Labour party has obviously catered to the PC crowd more than the traditionalists and THAT is their choice, but it is obvious that there hasn't been an honest discussion or discourse within the parties, and you end up with wackjob idiots like Griffin getting votes because at least he is he defending something for the sake of NOT changing it.

Personally, I think political correctness is the greatest crock of manure going. The intellectual straight jacket it puts on political discourse has caused issues that are legitimate to be ignored or mishandled. We have people denying that Muslims are to be treated any different than any other people as far as security screenings, yet all the issues with bombings and attempted bombings in recent years have been due to Islamic fundamentalism. That isn't anti-Muslim, it is a reality that I am sure anyone can figure out. I am sure the UK police had no problem investigating anyone Irish who looked a little funny when the IRA was up to their mischief in London. So why would they be told not to treat recent Muslim immigrants or people going to radical clerics in the UK and not keep an eye on what is going on?

It goes on and on...and there is a fine line between racist investigations, and legitimate intelligence gathering, but the point is at some point you cannot have a politically correct mindset and expect effective results.

[Daniel]

The BNP is REACTING to the PC reaction to immigration.

If this were the case (Tbh the BNP are just racists) they should actually react against these people who are being PC and not the immigrants themselves.

[Daniel]

Personally, I think political correctness is the greatest crock of manure going. The intellectual straight jacket it puts on political discourse has caused issues that are legitimate to be ignored or mishandled. We have people denying that Muslims are to be treated any different than any other people as far as security screenings, yet all the issues with bombings and attempted bombings in recent years have been due to Islamic fundamentalism. That isn't anti-Muslim, it is a reality that I am sure anyone can figure out. I am sure the UK police had no problem investigating anyone Irish who looked a little funny when the IRA was up to their mischief in London. So why would they be told not to treat recent Muslim immigrants or people going to radical clerics in the UK and not keep an eye on what is going on?

I agree, however unpopular it is the Police and other security authorities should say they are targeting muslims because of the fact that most recent attacks were perpetrated by Muslims.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I agree, however unpopular it is the Police and other security authorities should say they are targeting muslims because of the fact that most recent attacks were perpetrated by Muslims.

The Police are not allowed to say that tho. The politicians are running around ordering them not to in many nations. We have the charade of "random" searches of airline passengers getting on planes all over the western world and this is in theory "fair" but when you see a security detail checking out the purse, luggage and patting down a granny with her grandkids, you realize how stupid this PC approach to security is. It is stuff like this that breeds intolerance of how society is bending over backwards to accomodate minority groups and NOT target them, which would be fine if the one minority/immigrant group wasn't actually where the terrorist movement is getting support from. That doesn't say that all Muslims are terrorists, but all the recent acts were perpetrated by Muslims in the name of Islam. The fact that the bombers in the UK were often 2nd generation should say that all this PC pandering has done nothing to pacify this group either. It is an issue, and by putting PC like statements out and ignoring it does no one any good. I think many in the Muslim community are ashamed of the terrorists, and it would be good for the nation at large to draw upon this pride and work with the community.

[Daniel]

The Police are not allowed to say that tho. The politicians are running around ordering them not to in many nations. We have the charade of "random" searches of airline passengers getting on planes all over the western world and this is in theory "fair" but when you see a security detail checking out the purse, luggage and patting down a granny with her grandkids, you realize how stupid this PC approach to security is. It is stuff like this that breeds intolerance of how society is bending over backwards to accomodate minority groups and NOT target them, which would be fine if the one minority/immigrant group wasn't actually where the terrorist movement is getting support from. That doesn't say that all Muslims are terrorists, but all the recent acts were perpetrated by Muslims in the name of Islam. The fact that the bombers in the UK were often 2nd generation should say that all this PC pandering has done nothing to pacify this group either. It is an issue, and by putting PC like statements out and ignoring it does no one any good. I think many in the Muslim community are ashamed of the terrorists, and it would be good for the nation at large to draw upon this pride and work with the community.
The thing is they are targeting Muslims and IMHO it would earn them respect to come clean and say listen, people masquerading as Muslims did all this and that's why you're getting patted down, we've nothing against the Islamic faith but this is what we have to do.

[Captain VXR]

I've read an idiotic article by a BNP member in its newspaper looking down on Lewis Hamilton and trumping Jenson Button whose foundings were based on skin colour and without any understanding of F1 or motor racing.

They'll be mighty pissed if Hamilton beats Button this year :D

[Mark in Oshawa]

The thing is they are targeting Muslims and IMHO it would earn them respect to come clean and say listen, people masquerading as Muslims did all this and that's why you're getting patted down, we've nothing against the Islamic faith but this is what we have to do.

If they are focusing on Muslims, then that is a step up from the PC stupidity of the airport screeners here and in the US, who treat everyone with suspicious mistrust. The reality is the Muslim community knows why this is happening and the government should have the guts to admit why themselves.

It is no different than the Toronto police every year denying they pull over more blacks in Toronto proportionally than whites, but then produce stats of where crime occurs and it is clustered in predmoinately black immigrant neighbhourhoods. Black men are most often the murder victims, and yet no one in officialdom is allowed to talk about the problem. It is just RETARDED to think this is helping, but there you go. The police cannot say officially they are targeting blacks to prevent black on black crimes in areas of the city where there is an issue...but then the black community gets upset this keeps happening to their young men. There is no intellectual honesty in any of it....

Thankfully, it hasn't occured to anyone in Canada to start a party like the BNP over immigration....

[Mark in Oshawa]

They'll be mighty pissed if Hamilton beats Button this year :D

The BNP are ticked about everything....they wake up mad....

[UltimateDanGTR]

I don't look down upon you because you're a nationalist, I look down upon you because you're so ignorant that you don't see that the BNP are a racist organisation who would like to see people like this man
http://www.gnation.co.cc/_/rsrc/1238747844470/contact-us/6.jpg
out of the UK

and would rather have more of these

http://www.that-dj.com/wp-content/uploads/image/chav.JPG

Keeping foreigners out isn't the solution to any of Britain's problems.

You're a twonk.

I did actually laugh at myself when I saw those photos. alot of young british people, well, ironically, think they are black. there are alot of young people in britain who are idiots, for sure.

I don't think I made myself clear enough when I said 'BNP isn't racist', Nationalism is not a racist concept (or indeed doesnt have to be) but what I certainly will concede is that some people in the BNP are Racist, for sure. Not all though. And I only sat up and took notice recently, and i didnt agree with their 'whites only to be a BNP member' policy.

I don't agree with all the BNP's ideals and points of view (some are too extreme), but compared to their opponents, they have some good policies.

And you say keeping out foreigners isnt the solution to any of britains problems. well keeping out those who can contribute to the economy (pay taxes, work hard etc) then I quite agree. but then accepting large families who need benefits and housing on the government is hardly a help is it?

[Macd]

but I'm firmly in the "anybody but Conservative" camp.

Fixed. :D

[Daniel]

Fixed. :D

No, I do believe that Dave is more against David Cameron than he is against the Conservatives.

[Daniel]

I did actually laugh at myself when I saw those photos. alot of young british people, well, ironically, think they are black. there are alot of young people in britain who are idiots, for sure.

I don't think I made myself clear enough when I said 'BNP isn't racist', Nationalism is not a racist concept (or indeed doesnt have to be) but what I certainly will concede is that some people in the BNP are Racist, for sure. Not all though. And I only sat up and took notice recently, and i didnt agree with their 'whites only to be a BNP member' policy.

I don't agree with all the BNP's ideals and points of view (some are too extreme), but compared to their opponents, they have some good policies.

And you say keeping out foreigners isnt the solution to any of britains problems. well keeping out those who can contribute to the economy (pay taxes, work hard etc) then I quite agree. but then accepting large families who need benefits and housing on the government is hardly a help is it?

Saying that some of the BNP's views are extreme is like me saying that some of Hitler's views were extreme but by god he certainly did a lot to cement Germany's place as an economical, technological and manufacturing centre in europe :rolleyes:

[Rollo]

I don't think I made myself clear enough when I said 'BNP isn't racist'

Let's let the party speak for you then eh?

http://bnp.org.uk/policies/immigration/
http://bnp.org.uk/files/2009/04/immigration.jpg

No-one is going to come out and say "I'm a racist" or "We are racist" in an official document, are they?

[Mark in Oshawa]

I will say again, the BNP may be bringing up some topics that the mainstream parties have given short shrift to and are capitalizing on it to promote and sell their rather narrow view of what the UK should be. It appears that way from a distance, and I wouldn't vote for them on a dare because much of the crap they are not saying is pretty radical stuff.

They are a protest movement.....but one who is capitalizing on the PC hands off way the Labour and Conservative Parties have dealt with changes in society.

[GridGirl]

If for example you were a person on long term benefits (mostly through personal choice) I can see why you would want to vote BNP. You have never ever been a conservative but traditionally a labour voter purely on the ground of class. Now even labour want to make you get a job, having a kid won't be a 16 year sabatical and your long term sick will be reviewed every two years if what the government says is to be believed. Your still not going to vote conservative. Liberal who? Ahhh BNP, they have no policies but you can associate youself with their outward values. The votes will soon stack up if people can tear themselves away from Jeremy Kyle to go to the poling station.

Where my mum lives there are a number of BNP council seats held. Last time I went with her to vote there were more BNP candidates than candidates for all the other parties put together. I wouldn't be suprised if a BNP MP gets elected. You only have to look at their addresses too see that they all hail from an place called Tipton. Tipton is known locally as the lost city. The large majority essentially live off benefits. The white and asian community used to live together with no problems until 9/11 happened. Rightly or wrongly the so called Tipton Taliban were arrested in Afghanistan and the spotlight so to speak was put upon the town and the BNP uprising began. As an outsider I don't think it was through a direct result of any fallout between the two communities but more of the predominantly white benefit scroungers becoming worried about who was now paying more attention to what they were doing.

P.s. I have family that live in Tipton. They are white, benefit scroungers and I can see them voting BNP. They are morons.

[Mark in Oshawa]

There you go Gridgirl, point out that the people supporting BNP are NOT right wing kooks but rather creatures of socialized benefits and the welfare state! THAT right there stirs the muck up...lol

[Daniel]

If for example you were a person on long term benefits (mostly through personal choice) I can see why you would want to vote BNP. You have never ever been a conservative but traditionally a labour voter purely on the ground of class. Now even labour want to make you get a job, having a kid won't be a 16 year sabatical and your long term sick will be reviewed every two years if what the government says is to be believed. Your still not going to vote conservative. Liberal who? Ahhh BNP, they have no policies but you can associate youself with their outward values. The votes will soon stack up if people can tear themselves away from Jeremy Kyle to go to the poling station.

Where my mum lives there are a number of BNP council seats held. Last time I went with her to vote there were more BNP candidates than candidates for all the other parties put together. I wouldn't be suprised if a BNP MP gets elected. You only have to look at their addresses too see that they all hail from an place called Tipton. Tipton is known locally as the lost city. The large majority essentially live off benefits. The white and asian community used to live together with no problems until 9/11 happened. Rightly or wrongly the so called Tipton Taliban were arrested in Afghanistan and the spotlight so to speak was put upon the town and the BNP uprising began. As an outsider I don't think it was through a direct result of any fallout between the two communities but more of the predominantly white benefit scroungers becoming worried about who was now paying more attention to what they were doing.

P.s. I have family that live in Tipton. They are white, benefit scroungers and I can see them voting BNP. They are morons.

£5 says you won't go to Tipton and shout that out in the town centre :D

[BDunnell]

I can see where the BNP would be attractive, especially to older Britons that remenber days when they didn't have to kiss anybody's butt.

I would stop commenting on British political matters if you're going to make statements like that, to be honest.

[BDunnell]

They are a protest movement.....but one who is capitalizing on the PC hands off way the Labour and Conservative Parties have dealt with changes in society.

'Political correctness', that tiresome, overused phrase so beloved of those without a serious point to make, is entirely in the eye of the beholder. Rather a hands-off way than a misguided hands-on way. I am entirely satisfied that society is not 'broken', managing as I do to somehow exist within it devoid of an endless feeling of threat or foreboding, or without struggling to move for illegal entrants and armed children.

[GridGirl]

Tipton is the lost city. I could get away with saying alot of things purely by association. :p

Slightly back on topic. The BNP just like other political partly aims to capitalise on what people belive in and what they want from a government. As the BNP have no actual policies or serious agenda's to champion this easily gives them the ability to build upon any number of reasons why the average Mr Smith may feel some draw towards them. They are operating in a nieche market so to speak. If you add all those nieches together then you get a problem because then they get elected.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

'Political correctness', that tiresome, overused phrase so beloved of those without a serious point to make, is entirely in the eye of the beholder. Rather a hands-off way than a misguided hands-on way. I am entirely satisfied that society is not 'broken', managing as I do to somehow exist within it devoid of an endless feeling of threat or foreboding, or without struggling to move for illegal entrants and armed children.

I tend to agree with this.

The only time I feel Political correctness enters my life is when I'm reading about it in an obscure story in the The Sun or The Daily Mail.

[Mark in Oshawa]

'Political correctness', that tiresome, overused phrase so beloved of those without a serious point to make, is entirely in the eye of the beholder. Rather a hands-off way than a misguided hands-on way. I am entirely satisfied that society is not 'broken', managing as I do to somehow exist within it devoid of an endless feeling of threat or foreboding, or without struggling to move for illegal entrants and armed children.

I disagree entirely. Political Correctness is the altering of language so some group isn't going to be "offended" and altering the throught process. Talking about racial discrimination without being allowed to actually proving with hard numbers whether there is systemic discrimination ins political correctness. Not calling things what they are is political correctness. Banning an MP of a foreign nation (that is an ally) becuase your government of the day doesn't approve of his politcal views is politcal correctness. Banning free speech because you are scared of what is being said is politcal correctness. IT is all BS and wrong and there is many ways people have tried to muzzle honest debate by labellying the opposition to something as racist or extremist is a dangerous game. From what I have seen from afar, the UK is full of such nonsense, and it has helped breed groups like the BNP...

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I disagree entirely. Political Correctness is the altering of language so some group isn't going to be "offended" and altering the throught process.

If people start to think before they speak then I generally see this as a positive thing.

[wedge]

'Political correctness', that tiresome, overused phrase so beloved of those without a serious point to make, is entirely in the eye of the beholder. Rather a hands-off way than a misguided hands-on way. I am entirely satisfied that society is not 'broken', managing as I do to somehow exist within it devoid of an endless feeling of threat or foreboding, or without struggling to move for illegal entrants and armed children.

What do you make of the Met Police and the promotion of Ali Dizaei post-Stephen Lawrence?

[Rollo]

The only time I feel Political correctness enters my life is when I'm reading about it in an obscure story in the The Sun or The Daily Mail.

The most surprising thing about this comment is that you read The Sun. I thought that most Sun readers just look at the pictures.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23379870-the-latest-cameron-mantra-praise-a-page-3-girl.do
Miss Hazell, 20, poses as a Page 3 girl in downmarket newspapers and is not well known for her political work.
But now she appears to be the latest weapon in Mr Cameron's campaign to shed the party's stuffy image.

Would Keeley Hazell make a more acceptable candidate to the electorate as PM over David Cameron? Sadly, I think that the answer to that is probably yes.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The most surprising thing about this comment is that you read The Sun. I thought that most Sun readers just look at the pictures.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23379870-the-latest-cameron-mantra-praise-a-page-3-girl.do
Miss Hazell, 20, poses as a Page 3 girl in downmarket newspapers and is not well known for her political work.
But now she appears to be the latest weapon in Mr Cameron's campaign to shed the party's stuffy image.

Would Keeley Hazell make a more acceptable candidate to the electorate as PM over David Cameron? Sadly, I think that the answer to that is probably yes.

Better looking...lol

[Hondo]

I would stop commenting on British political matters if you're going to make statements like that, to be honest.

Your views, not mine, are part of the reason you have a BNP to start with.

[Daniel]

Your views, not mine, are part of the reason you have a BNP to start with.
I don't think that's true. Trading on the whole PC thing preys on those who are happy with their lives but want to feel outraged by something and enjoy being outraged.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't think that's true. Trading on the whole PC thing preys on those who are happy with their lives but want to feel outraged by something and enjoy being outraged.

Why the UK has a bunch of loons like the BNP is easy to answer. Every society has loons....and if the left is in power, the loons on the right tend to gain traction, and when the right is in power, the loons on the left gain traction.

Some nations end up electing a few of those loons....like the BNP...but the reality is they never are able to stand up in the light of day in an honest debate. That is why the 2 party system in the US is kind of flawed, because the loons often sneak under the tent and influence things. Is Obama the leader of the Democratic party if not for some of the loons? Was George W. Bush elected to the leader of the GOP without some of the religious right? Neither man is what the loons are, but both catered to that loon fringe to an extent to gain a few votes in the primary process...

[BDunnell]

Your views, not mine, are part of the reason you have a BNP to start with.

Utterly laughable. The reason we have a BNP is because (a) we are a democratic society in which such parties are rightly allowed to exist, and (b) because significant numbers of people have irrational fears which this party and others seek to exploit. Not a difficult pair of concepts, really.

[Hondo]

Utterly laughable. The reason we have a BNP is because (a) we are a democratic society in which such parties are rightly allowed to exist, and (b) because significant numbers of people have irrational fears which this party and others seek to exploit. Not a difficult pair of concepts, really.

It's not utterly laughable at all. It's fact. The BNP exists as a political party in the UK because they have a viewpoint that is not represented by other parties. I have never been in contact with the BNP and as far as my knowledge goes, I am not the figurehead of their cause. What I think or don't think about any given issue doesn't affect the quality of life in the UK in the least. What Labour, Conservatives, and Social Democrats think and do, does affect life in the UK. So unless you are a member of the BNP or agree with them, your views, being a voting British citizen, have more to do with their existance than anything I can say or do.

As long as we are here and being laughable, I see a good many tactics used by others as not being much different than the BNP's. When other's don't share your viewpoint on everything, they are dismissed as having "irrational fears"or given another label, derogatory in tone, which implies an underveloped intellect and a creature that can barely get food in it's mouth by itself.
Look at "phobia". Most know it means to have an exaggerated, inexplicable fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation. You can, and do, ride it down even further to merely being intolerant of or having an aversion to a particular object, class of objects, or situation. I've never owned a green car, probably because of an aversion to the green colors that were offered. Does that make me a greencarophobe? I don't have a fear of green cars, I don't mind other people having green cars in fact I can be completely indifferent to green cars and still be a greencarophobe. To some. To most I'm just an ordinary guy that doesn't like green cars but to some, my failure to welcome green cars with open arms makes me a danger, however remote, so I must receive a label that warns the world of my irrationality, Greencarophobe.

In the past few years the homosexual community has made much use of the words homophobia and homophobe to describe anyone that does not cheerfully and openly accept homosexuals and homosexual conduct. Hopefully such a label will shame or embarrass those people to keep their views to themselves or even change them. I would suggest that the label is counterproductive as the people that were indifferent have now been tagged in a derogatory light. They are going to resent that. But, depending on how far down the list you wish to define "phobia", it is a legitimate tag. Ok, now flip the label game and play it both ways. Can you possibly imagine the screeching to the heavens if, overnight, the media and the public dropped "Gay" and started using the proper label of homosexuality in the general sense and homophiles for those that practiced it? Now you might rush to a dictionary now and find that gay was either a slang term for homosexual or you might even find that one of it's definitions is homosexual. But you won't find it in a 1960's dictionary, I don't think so anyway. The evolution of "Gay" to mainstream language is no different than other slang terms being legitimized. The homosexual community likes "gay". It gives the impression of happy, lighthearted, and non-threatening and they are right, especially in the printed word. Which looks better " the Gay rights spokesman said..." or "The Homophiles spokesman said..."? Pedophiles are those that take perverse liberties with children. That sort of gives Homophile that same dark, evil implication just by virture of that "phile" on the end of it. Those broad labels can work for you and they can bite you.

However the elections go, regardless of who wins what, and IF private enterprise is allowed to straighten out the financial mess,
You will still have the same problems.
Government officials will continue to make what they can while they can.
The government will continue to squander your tax money.
The government will increase taxes because they need more money to figure out why they keep wasting money.
The Great Ponzi will come ever so closer to going belly up.

[Hondo]

There are plenty of 'alternative' parties out there to vote for before the BNP. Voting for them would give the racist party more power at local government level.



The same EU that is economically more powerful than the US and provides millions of jobs in the UK?



No we aren't. I have no problems with 'former colonials' coming over here to work. They are part of our heritage.




Put simply, anyone who would vote BNP is, in political terms, a moron.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1250433/Greece-debt-bailout-EU-leaders-split-euro-crisis.html

Whoops.

[Dave B]

In the past few years the homosexual community has made much use of the words blah blah blah gibberish blah blah blah...

Which looks better " the Gay rights spokesman said..." or "The Homophiles spokesman said..."? Pedophiles are those that take perverse liberties with children. That sort of gives Homophile that same dark, evil implication just by virture of that "phile" on the end of it. Those broad labels can work for you and they can bite you.

You seem to have a strange anti-homosexual sentiment running through many of your posts. If you're anti-gay I'd respect you more if you just admitted it.

But trying to make a tenuous link between gays and paedophiles just because if you play with the words enough you can make the the endings sound a little bit similar is desperate, factually incorrect and dare I say a little bit juvenile.

[BDunnell]

It's not utterly laughable at all. It's fact. The BNP exists as a political party in the UK because they have a viewpoint that is not represented by other parties. I have never been in contact with the BNP and as far as my knowledge goes, I am not the figurehead of their cause. What I think or don't think about any given issue doesn't affect the quality of life in the UK in the least. What Labour, Conservatives, and Social Democrats think and do, does affect life in the UK. So unless you are a member of the BNP or agree with them, your views, being a voting British citizen, have more to do with their existance than anything I can say or do.

As long as we are here and being laughable, I see a good many tactics used by others as not being much different than the BNP's. When other's don't share your viewpoint on everything, they are dismissed as having "irrational fears"or given another label, derogatory in tone, which implies an underveloped intellect and a creature that can barely get food in it's mouth by itself.
Look at "phobia". Most know it means to have an exaggerated, inexplicable fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation. You can, and do, ride it down even further to merely being intolerant of or having an aversion to a particular object, class of objects, or situation. I've never owned a green car, probably because of an aversion to the green colors that were offered. Does that make me a greencarophobe? I don't have a fear of green cars, I don't mind other people having green cars in fact I can be completely indifferent to green cars and still be a greencarophobe. To some. To most I'm just an ordinary guy that doesn't like green cars but to some, my failure to welcome green cars with open arms makes me a danger, however remote, so I must receive a label that warns the world of my irrationality, Greencarophobe.

In the past few years the homosexual community has made much use of the words homophobia and homophobe to describe anyone that does not cheerfully and openly accept homosexuals and homosexual conduct. Hopefully such a label will shame or embarrass those people to keep their views to themselves or even change them. I would suggest that the label is counterproductive as the people that were indifferent have now been tagged in a derogatory light. They are going to resent that. But, depending on how far down the list you wish to define "phobia", it is a legitimate tag. Ok, now flip the label game and play it both ways. Can you possibly imagine the screeching to the heavens if, overnight, the media and the public dropped "Gay" and started using the proper label of homosexuality in the general sense and homophiles for those that practiced it? Now you might rush to a dictionary now and find that gay was either a slang term for homosexual or you might even find that one of it's definitions is homosexual. But you won't find it in a 1960's dictionary, I don't think so anyway. The evolution of "Gay" to mainstream language is no different than other slang terms being legitimized. The homosexual community likes "gay". It gives the impression of happy, lighthearted, and non-threatening and they are right, especially in the printed word. Which looks better " the Gay rights spokesman said..." or "The Homophiles spokesman said..."? Pedophiles are those that take perverse liberties with children. That sort of gives Homophile that same dark, evil implication just by virture of that "phile" on the end of it. Those broad labels can work for you and they can bite you.

However the elections go, regardless of who wins what, and IF private enterprise is allowed to straighten out the financial mess,
You will still have the same problems.
Government officials will continue to make what they can while they can.
The government will continue to squander your tax money.
The government will increase taxes because they need more money to figure out why they keep wasting money.
The Great Ponzi will come ever so closer to going belly up.

NURSE!

[Hondo]

You seem to have a strange anti-homosexual sentiment running through many of your posts. If you're anti-gay I'd respect you more if you just admitted it.

But trying to make a tenuous link between gays and paedophiles just because if you play with the words enough you can make the the endings sound a little bit similar is desperate, factually incorrect and dare I say a little bit juvenile.

Homosexuality is opinionated enough in this forum that it sometimes makes a fine example of other things. In this case, the value of carefully choosing your labels. The tenuous link, as you refer to it, between Gays ( homophiles) and pedophiles is no more desperate or juvenile than those that insist upon referring to those with different viewpoints on the subject of homosexuality as homophobes. Pedophilia is considered a sexual perversion where children are the sexual object. A pedophile is one that engages in the practice of pedophilia. Homosexuality is considered to be sexual activity with another of the same sex. A homophile is one that engages in homosexuality.
The word play is Webster's, not mine and contrary to your assertion, the use of both words are indeed factually correct. If I were homosexual, I don't believe I'd want to be referred to as a homophile. It doesn't sound nice at all. On the flip side, as I neither reject or accept the practice, I don't care to be labeled a homophobe either. Because I sometimes argue the Devil's Advocate veiwpoint doesn't make me anti-gay any more than arguing for tolerance or the advancement of the gay cause makes a person gay.

My entire point being there are those here that have no problems dropping official sounding labels of an implied derogatory nature upon anyone or a selected sample of people whose ideas or desires conflict with their own. The really funny thing, is that those that cast the labels are, from the opposite extreme, unable to see they are trying to do the same as those they label. To watch y'all spew bile and hatred towards the BNP for spewing of bile and hatred at others is amusing to me. Do you use a superior brand of bile and hatred? Is that what makes yours righteous and justified?

The fact that someone wants to modify immigration does not make that person a xenophobe. It makes him someone that wants to modify immigration. So what? Don't vote for him. But you want that extra little dig that the use of "xenophobe" throws in, even though it may not be correct.
Maybe I'm surrounded by a herd of BNPophobes. You know, those with an illogical fear, intolerance and aversion to the BNP. It just woofs your cookies that there are enough voters, all excuses aside, to actually put a few of them in office. And that means not all the voters out there share your viewpoint on the issues. And since you go out of your way to make the BNP sound so despicable, voters that may be starting to lean their way are more likely to be quiet about it, rather than discussing it to avoid the labels and ridicule. So it's hard to judge where the BNP stands until the votes are counted. Considering that neither Labour or the Conservatives have done anything beyond looting the country, it could be interesting.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1250433/Greece-debt-bailout-EU-leaders-split-euro-crisis.html

Whoops.

A typical 'over the top' Daily Mail headline. Let me remind you that Britain isn't part of the Euro.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

My entire point being there are those here that have no problems dropping official sounding labels of an implied derogatory nature upon anyone or a selected sample of people whose ideas or desires conflict with their own. The really funny thing, is that those that cast the labels are, from the opposite extreme, unable to see they are trying to do the same as those they label. To watch y'all spew bile and hatred towards the BNP for spewing of bile and hatred at others is amusing to me. Do you use a superior brand of bile and hatred? Is that what makes yours righteous and justified?


I wonder if many of the people who voted for the BNP actually knew what the actual values of the party are then they would be disgusted with themselves.

Your point is similar to saying that people who appose the KKK are as bad as bad as the KKK members themselves?

[Malbec]

If this British jobs for British worker rubbish was actually enforced and adopted by other countries for their own workers, you'd have over 2 million British people who currently work abroad in highly skilled professions, heading back to an already industry-less country full of positions offering minimum wage. Britain used to be the known as the "workshop" of the world, and now companies are heading to places like Hungary and the Czech Republic because people are willing to work long hours for considerably less. Unions have ruined this country IMO demanding more and more until we are at a point where we have priced ourselves out of the manufacturing industry. Its time we had a government who are willing to invest in this sector rather than investing more and more in wars and the civil service sectors.

The BNP simply don't have a clue.

Absolutely.

This is the BNP that wants to stop trade with non-white countries. No more cheap Chinese imports or Japanese electronics then to keep the cost of living from shooting up. No more selling bonds to Far Eastern and Arabic investors then. Better shut all those foreign factories too. I can't think of a quicker way to bankrupt Britain.

This is also the BNP that would stop Britain from being a tax-exile destination for wealthy Russians and Arabs cutting Britain's tax base further.

As for the BNP being a good alternative to mainstream parties that exist only to 'loot the country', one only needs take a look at what they do when they do get into local government. They don't even bother turning up to work!

[Malbec]

I disagree entirely. Political Correctness is the altering of language so some group isn't going to be "offended" and altering the throught process.

Thats right. PC is about removing words like nigger, paki or cripple from common usage, words that most polite people wouldn't use anyway.

Its also about removing discrimination from society. In pre-PC days my university had a computer programme that would sift through application sheets and award points. Get over the threshold and you were invited to interview. Points were awarded for good school exam marks and for extra-curricular activities. They were deducted for (amongst other things) foreign-sounding family names. PC got rid of that and I'm not shedding tears over it.

In pre-PC days it was quite alright for companies to not employ non-whites and be overt about it. It was alright to ask if someone was gay and sack them on the spot if they answered in the affirmative. It was fine to hound someone with racist/homophobic/sexist jokes until they quit work. It was also fine to make publicly racist comments.

Thanks to PC disabled people find it easier just to get around with new buildings forced to provide access to them. Women have found it easier to get work and stay in work in previously hostile sectors. Whole swathes of society have found life become easier.

Has PC gone too far? Quite possibly it has, but Britain would be a far less pleasant place without it. The people that find PC most threatening and are by far the most critical about it are white straight males who have seen PC raise other people up making society more of a level playing field. They've lost their previous advantages. Again I find it difficult to shed a tear for them.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Thats right. PC is about removing words like nigger, paki or cripple from common usage, words that most polite people wouldn't use anyway.

Its also about removing discrimination from society. In pre-PC days my university had a computer programme that would sift through application sheets and award points. Get over the threshold and you were invited to interview. Points were awarded for good school exam marks and for extra-curricular activities. They were deducted for (amongst other things) foreign-sounding family names. PC got rid of that and I'm not shedding tears over it.

In pre-PC days it was quite alright for companies to not employ non-whites and be overt about it. It was alright to ask if someone was gay and sack them on the spot if they answered in the affirmative. It was fine to hound someone with racist/homophobic/sexist jokes until they quit work. It was also fine to make publicly racist comments.

Thanks to PC disabled people find it easier just to get around with new buildings forced to provide access to them. Women have found it easier to get work and stay in work in previously hostile sectors. Whole swathes of society have found life become easier.

Has PC gone too far? Quite possibly it has, but Britain would be a far less pleasant place without it. The people that find PC most threatening and are by far the most critical about it are white straight males who have seen PC raise other people up making society more of a level playing field. They've lost their previous advantages. Again I find it difficult to shed a tear for them.

100% correct :up:

[Hondo]

I wonder if many of the people who voted for the BNP actually knew what the actual values of the party are then they would be disgusted with themselves.

Your point is similar to saying that people who appose the KKK are as bad as bad as the KKK members themselves?

Thats another thing. When people vote for something or somebody that we ridiculous or odius, we figure they were confused or made a mistake with their ballot or any other excuse besides the simple one. The simple one being, people are tired of the same old thing and here is a party talking about things they do believe in. Maybe you don't want to accept the fact that other people feel that way and will vote for them.

I know exactly what y'all are saying. I sat here and watched Obama campaign. The man was seldom specific about anything, particularly what he was going to do to effect all these changes. More often than not, when he was specific, he was lying. He lied left and right all through the campaign while the mainstream media gave him a pass on it all. Never called him down on any of it. We had all kinds of black folks thinking Obama was going to buy them a car, make their house note and get them free medical services. Anything anybody wanted (except the rich man of course) they would have. You didn't have to have spent much time in adulthood to realize there was no way all this stuff was going to happen and that this was not a man to be trusted. But he got elected, as much by people voting against McCain as by people voting for him. Now, a year later, by all polls, people wish they hadn't elected him. That was actually my point of bringing the BNP into this thread to start with. The world is in a financial mess. Governments are raising taxes and creating new fees and taxes because unlike you cutting back on spending when times are hard, they just demand more. You people have seen the Conservatives, you've seen Labour, and you've seen no difference. The entire last year was about your politicians playing fast and loose with taxpayer's money. Those are exactly the kind of conditions that allow parties like the BNP to slip into power. Public ridicule and dismissing the entire party as a bunch of buffoons will probably drive more people to them than from them. Some people will figure if the established order doesn't like them then they probably will do good things for me.

The KKK has undergone changes and since the '70s it's doctrine has been focused more on maintaining separation (no cross breeding) of races than anything else. They can't and probably will never escape their history anymore than the Holocaust will be forgotten. In addition, the Klan is an organization and not a political party. You can bet a goodly number of politicians past and present are or were members of the Klan.

The best way to defeat either is to calmly expose their doctrine without the name calling, egg throwing and ridicule. How difficult is it to explain the BNP's doctrine without all the descriptive adjectives? "Look, the BNP says and believes this but we oppose that because we believe this over here is a better way to do things" They present their side, you present your side, and the voter chooses. Just bear in mind, the BNP isn't really attracting new members, Labour and the Conservatives are driving new members to them.

[Hondo]

Absolutely.

This is the BNP that wants to stop trade with non-white countries. No more cheap Chinese imports or Japanese electronics then to keep the cost of living from shooting up. No more selling bonds to Far Eastern and Arabic investors then. Better shut all those foreign factories too. I can't think of a quicker way to bankrupt Britain.

This is also the BNP that would stop Britain from being a tax-exile destination for wealthy Russians and Arabs cutting Britain's tax base further.

As for the BNP being a good alternative to mainstream parties that exist only to 'loot the country', one only needs take a look at what they do when they do get into local government. They don't even bother turning up to work!

Thanks Dylan. To Brown, Jon Brow that is how you fight the BNP, not by spewing bile and hate at them.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

The best way to defeat either is to calmly expose their doctrine without the name calling, egg throwing and ridicule. How difficult is it to explain the BNP's doctrine without all the descriptive adjectives? "Look, the BNP says and believes this but we oppose that because we believe this over here is a better way to do things" They present their side, you present your side, and the voter chooses. Just bear in mind, the BNP isn't really attracting new members, Labour and the Conservatives are driving new members to them.


This isn't actually the case though.

The BNP isn't really attracting any new voters. It is just seeing its share of the vote rise because the turn out is lower. Mainly due to Labour voters not turning out.

[Hondo]

This isn't actually the case though.

The BNP isn't really attracting any new voters. It is just seeing its share of the vote rise because the turn out is lower. Mainly due to Labour voters not turning out.

Since the election hasn't happened yet, none of us really know what the case is, do we?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Since the election hasn't happened yet, none of us really know what the case is, do we?

Well that's what happened in the European elections last year.

Many of the traditional Labour voters (below average paid working class) were disillusioned by the replacement of the 10% income tax bracket by 20% tax at the time.

[Caroline]

I have been reading this thread with interest. I just wondered when did people stop thinking for themselves and realise that the issues that face the UK in 2010 are not going to be sorted by one political party. Political parties tell you what they think you want to hear. The BNP is no different.




The UK is made up of so many different cultures you'd be hard pressed to find your average Joe on the street who is a pure bred Celt and has no links to mainland Europe. It would be like white America trying to create a heritage in a country made up of Ex-Europeans and multinational settlers with one race being chosen above any other. Its impossible to do and imoral.

I know I am being pedantic but the Celts originated in Switzerland - from Hallstad if I am remembering correctly. They brought their culture across Europe and we see the remains of it today in the Western fringes of Europe. Therefore, to be a Celt is to be European. Tres bon.

[Daniel]

You say it sister!

[Hondo]

You say it sister!

Carolineophobe.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I'll be voting labour. I'm not over-enamoured with them but it's basically a two-horses race and I don't like the other horse.

[Mark]

Same here. Labour are crap. But the thought of the tories is horrifying.

[Zico]

I dont know who I'll vote for yet, if a middle of the road party came along that would put a stop to the benefits scroungers of ALL races living off me the taxpayer I'd happily vote for them.
Id also want them to bring back national conscription for all school leavers with no higher levels of education.The problem is that the parties all know that these policies would lose a large percentage of votes for them, whats best for the country isn't a vote winner.

Although I agree with some BNP policies they dont inspire much trust (well I suppose none of them do).. or any confidence and have a bit of an image problem, Nick Griffin sports a Hitler haircut and is surounded by his skinhead henchmen. However I will say one thing.. they have changed a lot of policies and no longer have most of those mentioned in the earlier comments on here.

[Daniel]

Carolineophobe.

Coudn't be further from the truth :D :D :D :D

[Daniel]

I dont know who I'll vote for yet, if a middle of the road party came along that would put a stop to the benefits scroungers of ALL races living off me the taxpayer I'd happily vote for them.
Id also want them to bring back national conscription for all school leavers with no higher levels of education.The problem is that the parties all know that these policies would lose a large percentage of votes for them, whats best for the country isn't a vote winner.

Although I agree with some BNP policies they dont inspire much trust (well I suppose none of them do).. or any confidence and have a bit of an image problem, Nick Griffin sports a Hitler haircut and is surounded by his skinhead henchmen. However I will say one thing.. they have changed a lot of policies and no longer have most of those mentioned in the earlier comments on here.

Have they really changed them? Or as Nick Griffin said in that Youtube video have they merely hidden them so as to gain a more mainstream vote which they can use to get into power reveal once they control the media so they can tell everyone the truth etc etc?

[Hondo]

Has anybody in Labour actually done any?

[BDunnell]

Id also want them to bring back national conscription for all school leavers with no higher levels of education.

Yes, those are the sort of armed forces we want in the modern era, aren't they — full of directionless, otherwise unemployable thickos. Excellent idea.

[Hondo]

Have they really changed them? Or as Nick Griffin said in that Youtube video have they merely hidden them so as to gain a more mainstream vote which they can use to get into power reveal once they control the media so they can tell everyone the truth etc etc?

Thats the way you do it. You can even direct people to their web site. Even Obama couldn't hide what he was and was about. The media just didn't report it. But a little independant research just laid the man out for all to see. Encourge people to look further.

[Zico]

Yes, those are the sort of armed forces we want in the modern era, aren't they — full of directionless, otherwise unemployable thickos. Excellent idea.

I was looking at it from the other angle.. ie, to instill some discipline and direction to their lives, teach them a skill, a trade they could use on civy street, turn them into something useful. Surely worth attempting and better than the current situation we have today... wasters with no prospects and no respect for anyone.... living on handouts paid by me and you.

Makes sense to me.



@Daniel- yep, your right. As I said.. I wouldn't trust them... like ALL politicians.

[Sonic]

I was looking at it from the other angle.. ie, to instill some discipline and direction to their lives, teach them a skill, a trade they could use on civy street, turn them into something useful. Surely worth attempting and better than the current situation we have today... wasters with no prospects and no respect for anyone.... living on handouts paid by me and you.

Makes sense to me

And me. It certainly wouldn't straighten out all of them but I think it would keep them off the street and give a majority a sense of purpose and as you've mentioned, a skill.

Hell, if its good enough for Ralph Schumacher! (He did get called up, didn't he?)

[BeansBeansBeans]

The problem is that the parties all know that these policies would lose a large percentage of votes for them, whats best for the country isn't a vote winner.


However I will say one thing.. they have changed a lot of policies and no longer have most of those mentioned in the earlier comments on here.

So you're condemning the mainstream parties for chasing votes whilst praising the BNP for doing the exact same thing?

[Daniel]

So you're condemning the mainstream parties for chasing votes whilst praising the BNP for doing the exact same thing?

It's different though.

For the mainstream parties it's the difference between being in power or not.

For the BNP it's the difference between having the backing of a few out and out racists or grabbing some people who are perhaps a bit ignorant about what the BNP really stand for. People like ignorantDanGTR for instance.

[BeansBeansBeans]

For the BNP it's the difference between having the backing of a few out and out racists or grabbing some people who are perhaps a bit ignorant about what the BNP really stand for. People like ignorantDanGTR for instance.

It's worrying that some people think the BNP aren't racist, and that they simply 'represent British people'. If you're British, but happen to be of, say, Pakistani descent, you'll probably find the BNP aren't on your side.

[Daniel]

It's worrying that some people think the BNP aren't racist, and that they simply 'represent British people'. If you're British, but happen to be of, say, Pakistani descent, you'll probably find the BNP aren't on your side.
But if you're Australian and of Western European descent? SCORE. I say that of course as a joke but whenever I've been around British people who've had issues with "foreigners" me being foreign has never been a problem strangely enough......

[driveace]

I agree with the National Service thing.IF they have not found employment by say 18 years of age ,and not attending college THEN dont give them money every week to hang around on street corners getting bored,then 2 years National Service,and teach them respect.Cut the crime!

[Sonic]

I agree with the National Service thing.IF they have not found employment by say 18 years of age ,and not attending college THEN dont give them money every week to hang around on street corners getting bored,then 2 years National Service,and teach them respect.Cut the crime!

Agreed.

[BDunnell]

I was looking at it from the other angle.. ie, to instill some discipline and direction to their lives, teach them a skill, a trade they could use on civy street, turn them into something useful. Surely worth attempting and better than the current situation we have today... wasters with no prospects and no respect for anyone.... living on handouts paid by me and you.

Makes sense to me.

I've said it before and I'll say it again — go into Aldershot on a Friday or Saturday night and try telling me that being in the armed forces instills discipline in anyone.

[BDunnell]

But if you're Australian and of Western European descent? SCORE. I say that of course as a joke but whenever I've been around British people who've had issues with "foreigners" me being foreign has never been a problem strangely enough......

Precisely. And people from which nation represent the largest number of 'illegals' in the UK, i.e. people without valid work permits? Yes, Australians. This is one significant reason why 'fears' about immigration are, despite what many people might like to think, almost entirely race-based. White English-speakers apparently don't count.

[BDunnell]

I agree with the National Service thing.IF they have not found employment by say 18 years of age ,and not attending college THEN dont give them money every week to hang around on street corners getting bored,then 2 years National Service,and teach them respect.Cut the crime!

There is no evidence this has the slightest positive effect. And I refer you to my comment above. Is the military the best place for such people? No. Quite the reverse, in fact.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

@BDunnell - did you ever see Bads Lads Army? For some people the Army can do them a favour.
But an the other hand I'm not too keen on having my country being defended by people who are only fit for unemployment, and it would certainly stop people such as myself from joining. It would change peoples views on the Armed Forces. People would think of the Army as being brat camp.

[Daniel]

@BDunnell - did you ever see Bads Lads Army? For some people the Army can do them a favour.
But an the other hand I'm not too keen on having my country being defended by people who are only fit for unemployment, and it would certainly stop people such as myself from joining. It would change peoples views on the Armed Forces. People would think of the Army as being brat camp.
There would still be a core of professional soldiers though Jon.

[BDunnell]

@BDunnell - did you ever see Bads Lads Army? For some people the Army can do them a favour.

I'm sure it can, for some. But there is no 'one size fits all' cure. And the concept of non-professional armies is slowly being eroded elsewhere as unworkable and pointless. If our forces are to go to war, I would prefer that they be composed entirely of professional soldiers. This is a job for people who want to do it and are competent at it.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

This is a job for people who want to do it and are competent at it.

Exactly :up:

[Sonic]

I'm sure it can, for some. But there is no 'one size fits all' cure. And the concept of non-professional armies is slowly being eroded elsewhere as unworkable and pointless. If our forces are to go to war, I would prefer that they be composed entirely of professional soldiers. This is a job for people who want to do it and are competent at it.

Who says they have to go to war? Pro soldiers for deployment and the National service mob for UK based activities - cover in fire strikes etc...

[Rollo]

I agree with the National Service thing.IF they have not found employment by say 18 years of age ,and not attending college THEN dont give them money every week to hang around on street corners getting bored,then 2 years National Service,and teach them respect.Cut the crime!

Is this gambit provable?

If you conscript people into military service (ie involuntary service for the state - which incidentally could be seen as slavery under a different guise), and then release those same people back into society, are there any useful statistics to prove that crime levels actually decrease?
Or by inference, would you then turn loose a group of people who have been trained how to kill more effectively?

[Malbec]

Same here. Labour are crap. But the thought of the tories is horrifying.

In what way are they horrifying?

Whoever gets in power will have to slash spending regardless of their political beliefs, whether the PM is Labour, Tory or Lib Dem won't be relevant. Anyone who claims that they'll carry on current spending levels is either deluded or lying given the falling tax income. I know that the NHS is planning on the belief that regardless of the election outcome and pre-election promises spending will drop by around 10% as of 2011.

In that sense I prefer the hardnosed realism of the Tories who have made clear they will cut spending to Labour who not only suggested we'd have an astonishingly fast recovery but are denying that spending will have to be cut significantly. Still, the lack of concrete Tory policies is definitely worrying.

[Hondo]

But if you're Australian and of Western European descent? SCORE. I say that of course as a joke but whenever I've been around British people who've had issues with "foreigners" me being foreign has never been a problem strangely enough......

Psssstt....Don't tell anyone else, cause it's a secret, but you're white and therefore ok. Don't tell anyone I told you.

[Hondo]

In what way are they horrifying?

Whoever gets in power will have to slash spending regardless of their political beliefs, whether the PM is Labour, Tory or Lib Dem won't be relevant. Anyone who claims that they'll carry on current spending levels is either deluded or lying given the falling tax income. I know that the NHS is planning on the belief that regardless of the election outcome and pre-election promises spending will drop by around 10% as of 2011.

In that sense I prefer the hardnosed realism of the Tories who have made clear they will cut spending to Labour who not only suggested we'd have an astonishingly fast recovery but are denying that spending will have to be cut significantly. Still, the lack of concrete Tory policies is definitely worrying.

And, to frighten the public even more when the subject of spending cuts comes up, the police, firefighters and schools are always stated to be first in line.

[Rollo]

Still, the lack of concrete Tory policies is definitely worrying.

Political parties never want to produce concrete policies because that way they can not be held accountable for failing to fulfill them and their counterparts can not steal them.

[BeansBeansBeans]

In what way are they horrifying?

Whoever gets in power will have to slash spending regardless of their political beliefs, whether the PM is Labour, Tory or Lib Dem won't be relevant.

A fair point, but only the tories plan to cut inheritance tax whilst reducing public spending, so I'm not going to vote for them.

[Daniel]

Psssstt....Don't tell anyone else, cause it's a secret, but you're white and therefore ok. Don't tell anyone I told you.

I know, it's just stupid though :)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

A fair point, but only the tories plan to cut inheritance tax whilst reducing public spending, so I'm not going to vote for them.

Inheritance tax might be something the tories are right to address. It is far too easy to say 'typical tories helping the rich', but the reality is that house prices have risen far more in the past ten years than the Inheritance tax threshold. More 'ordinary people' are affected by it.

[driveace]

Why do you assume that the youths who hang around street corners could not turn out to be suitable for a life in the Army,Navy or Air Force.A lot of them are not thick,and are bored.They need a leader,some one to show them the way,which they would get in the services,how to live in the open ,without television,central heating etc.
At least they would be learning something about life ,rather than waisting the cash given out on booze,drugs etc.
The Finns when I was there had all to do national service at least into the eighties,which all the rally drivers I believe had to do

[BDunnell]

Why do you assume that the youths who hang around street corners could not turn out to be suitable for a life in the Army,Navy or Air Force.A lot of them are not thick,and are bored.They need a leader,some one to show them the way,which they would get in the services,how to live in the open ,without television,central heating etc.
At least they would be learning something about life ,rather than waisting the cash given out on booze,drugs etc.

Did you see the figures published fairly recently about the percentage of the UK's prison population who had at one time or another been in the armed forces?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jan/10/armed-forces-veterans-prison-population

As stated in the article, while a Government minister said the other day that the figure is 3 per cent, this is doubted by all sorts of organisations. Whatever, it doesn't exactly hold up the armed forces as shining examples of how to deal with troubled people.

[BDunnell]

Who says they have to go to war? Pro soldiers for deployment and the National service mob for UK based activities - cover in fire strikes etc...

The idea of such people providing fire cover during strikes is equally as unappealing.

[Daniel]

The idea of such people providing fire cover during strikes is equally as unappealing.
Playing the devils advocate here but what's your idea for dealing with these people then?

[Captain VXR]

Sending yobs into the Army wouldn't work - you'd end up with lots of this:
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/812550-british-soldiers-went-on-rampage-in-restaurant
Making them fill potholes in the road and clean public bogs would sort them out

[BDunnell]

Playing the devils advocate here but what's your idea for dealing with these people then?

I don't think we need do much beyond what we do now. The problem of 'feral youths' is completely overstated.

[Sonic]

The idea of such people providing fire cover during strikes is equally as unappealing.

It was but one example.

I think it could work quite well. As Driveace says, perhaps if they have not found employment by a specific age or are not in school of some type then they are given two choices;

1) Enter the services and be paid.

Or

2) Decline, and have their benefits cut to a bare minimum.

On the subject of percentage of ex-armed forces in jail, do we have any statistics for the number of school leavers with minimal qualifications in prison? I'd wager I know which is higher.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Playing the devils advocate here but what's your idea for dealing with these people then?

Doing something about the level of poverty in this country is the only thing that could possibly help. Easier said than done, of course.

[BDunnell]

It was but one example.

I think it could work quite well. As Driveace says, perhaps if they have not found employment by a specific age or are not in school of some type then they are given two choices;

1) Enter the services and be paid.

Or

2) Decline, and have their benefits cut to a bare minimum.

Why are the armed services seen as a panacea when it comes to instilling discipline in people? I suspect the answer is because this is seen as a 'tough' option compared to other methods, and thus finds favour with people who are impressed by such things.

[Sonic]

Why are the armed services seen as a panacea when it comes to instilling discipline in people? I suspect the answer is because this is seen as a 'tough' option compared to other methods, and thus finds favour with people who are impressed by such things.

Well I am easily impressed! :D I guess this comes down to a simple, you've got your views and I've got mine.

[BDunnell]

But what is it to be? Some people say that badly-behaved youths should be put into the forces. Then it's pointed out that modern military tasks are best performed by professionals. So the supporters of compulsory military service for these ruffians then retort with the view that they should be kept at home for other tasks. Slowly, the whole argument is eroded.

[driveace]

Yes but up to 1960 we had compulsory inscription into the Army for everyone,you could delay your enrollment to do an apprenticeship,or trade ,but then at 21 you had to do your SERVICE.The only persons able to avoid it I believe were farmers sons,etc.Also in Finland it was compulsory too,AND they did not pick and choose who they took,it was compulsory for all males.
What you are saying now is only the bright,fit ,intellegent,want to be there guys should be allowed in.NOW the services do pick and choose,but it should be open to all.

[BDunnell]

Yes but up to 1960 we had compulsory inscription into the Army for everyone,you could delay your enrollment to do an apprenticeship,or trade ,but then at 21 you had to do your SERVICE.The only persons able to avoid it I believe were farmers sons,etc.Also in Finland it was compulsory too,AND they did not pick and choose who they took,it was compulsory for all males.
What you are saying now is only the bright,fit ,intellegent,want to be there guys should be allowed in.NOW the services do pick and choose,but it should be open to all.

I'm not sure what you mean, because surely the services are open to all?

[Mark]

I'm not sure what you mean, because surely the services are open to all?

Well he's saying it's not because only fit and intelligent people should be allowed in the army. And rightly so! The army is there to do a job, not to be a school for thicko's.

[F1boat]

I'm not very much into British politics, but LibDems seem to be the best choice from what I can see. BNP seem dangerous. Don't buy quasyfascist parties!

[Daniel]

Doing something about the level of poverty in this country is the only thing that could possibly help. Easier said than done, of course.

Some people don't want to be helped BBB. Having temped for a couple of weeks taking rent from people in the most skanky bedsits in North Wales I can safely say that there are some people who are just happy enough to exist and don't want anything more.

[BDunnell]

Some people don't want to be helped BBB.

I would suggest that they don't know what they want, really.

[Daniel]

I would suggest that they don't know what they want, really.
So you want to tell people what they want or what is best for them? That could have come from the pages of the Mail ;)

[Mark]

The statistic claims that 8 out of 10 people on incapacity benefit in the UK are fit to work but don't want to. The highest amount of claims originate in Merthyr Tydfil. Obviously in some areas employment opportunities are thin on the ground, but a vast amount of people are choosing the easy life because our benefits system is so shall we say "beneficial".. This isn't just in Wales but all over the country and is the largest issue I'd like to see addressed.. :)

This is possibly true, but it hasn't helped that sucessive governments have given people incentives and 'pushed' them onto incapacity benefit in order that the unemployment figures look better.

Any government now doesn't want to just pull the rug as again, the unemployment figures will shoot up.

[Daniel]

I must admit if I was the government in Downing Street I'd let the Welsh Assembly budget for the needs of people in Wales in particular as there is a strong element who wish the principality to be independant and at some stage have their own parliament like Scotland has. When AM's are not punching ambulance crews and visiting brothels in Cardiff, unfortunately they have no idea what they are doing. Its jobs for the boys and handouts from London resulting in a complacent little operation at present. A vast reshuffle is needed in Wales and hopefully this will happen after the next general election, but I won't hold my breath.

The statistic claims that 8 out of 10 people on incapacity benefit in the UK are fit to work but don't want to. The highest amount of claims originate in Merthyr Tydfil. Obviously in some areas employment opportunities are thin on the ground, but a vast amount of people are choosing the easy life because our benefits system is so shall we say "beneficial".. This isn't just in Wales but all over the country and is the largest issue I'd like to see addressed.. :)

You'd be an eejit. The problem with the UK is that there's too much bureaucracy and the real decision making power is held at the wrong levels of government.

In Australia your local council is responsible for picking up rubbish, local roads, libraries, making sure there are pansies in the middle of roundabouts and so on and so forth.

In the UK they have far far too much power and IMHO because they're only responsible for their little area they're not held to account as well as they would be if the power was wielded at a more national level because quite frankly I'm not bothered if the schools in your area are crap because it has no bearing on the schools here. Back in Australia if a school is mismanaged by the state 500 miles away people get pissed off and someone gets fired because it impacts everyone.

[Daniel]

Exactly, but most governments in Europe give incentives to manufacturing companies who locate themselves in their given country if it means employment will prosper in certain areas. This is something the British government did once upon a time but it seems they are doing little to stop companies leaving for Eastern Europe.

Bosch for example built a purpose built unit in South Wales on the M4 and has enjoyed over 20 years supplying the car industry. Their subsidised lease was lifted and rates went up. The result meant they have pulled the plug and relocating to Hungary. Now the Welsh Assembly debaters are meeting to try and look like they are concerned now the decision has been forced upon them. We need to realise that are primary aim should be getting this country back ontrack as one of the world leading manufacturing nations, and this needs help from the government. :)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/8508510.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/wales_politics/8517289.stm
Who cares though? At least all the roadsigns are bilingual!

[Mark]

The government thus far has been content to allow the financial sector to pull in the majority of wealth that was lost in manufacturing, but look where that has got us.

[Daniel]

I can see you haven't lived in Wales long, unless you're having a poke at the anti-outsider stance they seem to employ in North Wales. They're a funny breed the North Walians I must say, thank god my fiancees from the south.. :p
I prefer people from North Wales :p

I'm just having a dig at the fact that the priorities of the Welsh assembly just seem to be wrong. They seem to focus on the Welsh bit of being the Welsh Assembly more than the Assembly bit. All the bilingual signs, teaching kids Welsh in class etc etc is all irrelevant when they're not supporting big business so the kids growing up these days have dismal employment prospects.

[BDunnell]

So you want to tell people what they want or what is best for them? That could have come from the pages of the Mail ;)

Some people do need guidance as to what is best for them. I don't think there's anything controversial about saying that?

I would suggest that they don't know what they want, really.

No chance of getting a job in a Spice Girls tribute band then.

Some people do need guidance as to what is best for them. I don't think there's anything controversial about saying that?

And some people are dangerous westernised intellectuals, eh, Mr Pot?

[Daniel]

No chance of getting a job in a Spice Girls tribute band then.
:rotflmao:

I can see you haven't lived in Wales long, unless you're having a poke at the anti-outsider stance they seem to employ in North Wales. They're a funny breed the North Walians I must say, thank god my fiancees from the south.. :p

Sheep don't count as girlfriends.

[BDunnell]

The government thus far has been content to allow the financial sector to pull in the majority of wealth that was lost in manufacturing, but look where that has got us.

Yes, the laissez-faire, 'business-friendly' attitude of the Labour governments has been a huge success, hasn't it? Anyone who thinks the Tories would have acted any differently in relation to the financial sector, and imposed the necessary tighter controls, is living in cloud cuckoo land.

[BDunnell]

No chance of getting a job in a Spice Girls tribute band then.

Excellent.

[Daniel]

Some people do need guidance as to what is best for them. I don't think there's anything controversial about saying that?

I agree Ben, but the people don't want to be told what to do sadly

[url]http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=794432&mid=0&i=0&nmt=Should (http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=794432&mid=0&i=0&nmt=Should) winter tyres be made compulsory in the UK?&mid=0[url]

You'll have to copy and paste all of that for it to work but you'll get the idea.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic

If the topic is "Should pistonheads be gassed", I vote yes.

[Daniel]

Yes, the laissez-faire, 'business-friendly' attitude of the Labour governments has been a huge success, hasn't it? Anyone who thinks the Tories would have acted any differently in relation to the financial sector, and imposed the necessary tighter controls, is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Rather. I always laugh when anyone claims they could have done better in the credit crunch.

[Rudy Tamasz]

I have an uneducated question to you Brits. It looks like the political lines are drawn and everybody knows where Tories, Labour and Liberals stand. What about personalities? How do you rate them?

To me Gordon Brown seems to be a likeable man, who made a fair share of mistakes but those were honest mistakes, more often than not. Based on personality I would prefer him over David "Too-Nice-To-Be-True" Cameron. Whaddaya think?

[Daniel]

I have an uneducated question to you Brits. It looks like the political lines are drawn and everybody knows where Tories, Labour and Liberals stand. What about personalities? How do you rate them?

To me Gordon Brown seems to be a likeable man, who made a fair share of mistakes but those were honest mistakes, more often than not. Based on personality I would prefer him over David "Too-Nice-To-Be-True" Cameron. Whaddaya think?
Pretty much it.....

[Mark]

I get the impression from Cameron that he's going to be very distant. Much like tory governments of the past, implementing policies which make things look better on paper, but hurt a lot of people along the way.

[BDunnell]

I have an uneducated question to you Brits. It looks like the political lines are drawn and everybody knows where Tories, Labour and Liberals stand. What about personalities? How do you rate them?

To me Gordon Brown seems to be a likeable man, who made a fair share of mistakes but those were honest mistakes, more often than not. Based on personality I would prefer him over David "Too-Nice-To-Be-True" Cameron. Whaddaya think?

I dislike David Cameron on the grounds of his (a) being leader of a party I will never, ever vote for, and which, deep down, hasn't really changed, and (b) the fact that we do not need a bland former PR man whose favourite TV programme is, he says, Top Gear, as Prime Minister. Brown on the other hand is a rather odd character, probably quite complex but also lacking, it seems, in social graces. But he was a very impressive speaker when I saw him addressing a small gathering a few years ago on the subject of Third World debt.

[Daniel]

I dislike David Cameron on the grounds of his (a) being leader of a party I will never, ever vote for, and which, deep down, hasn't really changed, and (b) the fact that we do not need a bland former PR man whose favourite TV programme is, he says, Top Gear, as Prime Minister. Brown on the other hand is a rather odd character, probably quite complex but also lacking, it seems, in social graces. But he was a very impressive speaker when I saw him addressing a small gathering a few years ago on the subject of Third World debt.
I do hope that one day Brown will get recognised as not being nearly as bad as he's made out to be. I don't know if he's done as well as he could have done in the situation but I reckon others could have done a lot worse.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I prefer people from North Wales :p

I'm just having a dig at the fact that the priorities of the Welsh assembly just seem to be wrong. They seem to focus on the Welsh bit of being the Welsh Assembly more than the Assembly bit. All the bilingual signs, teaching kids Welsh in class etc etc is all irrelevant when they're not supporting big business so the kids growing up these days have dismal employment prospects.

That sounds like Quebec. They have tons of dough to waste on language police and making sure no one speaks English if they are not English, but they have some of the highest unemployment and most inefficient goverment in the nation. Prioritizing and looking after the people's immediate need for jobs would be a great idea, rather than worrying about their "culture".

[Mark in Oshawa]

I dislike David Cameron on the grounds of his (a) being leader of a party I will never, ever vote for, and which, deep down, hasn't really changed, and (b) the fact that we do not need a bland former PR man whose favourite TV programme is, he says, Top Gear, as Prime Minister. Brown on the other hand is a rather odd character, probably quite complex but also lacking, it seems, in social graces. But he was a very impressive speaker when I saw him addressing a small gathering a few years ago on the subject of Third World debt.

You dislike him because he is a Tory. HE need not open his mouth Ben....but having said that, I think he is a twit too....

[BDunnell]

You dislike him because he is a Tory. HE need not open his mouth Ben....but having said that, I think he is a twit too....

In part, yes, of course I dislike him for being a Tory.

[Mark in Oshawa]

In part, yes, of course I dislike him for being a Tory.

I can just dislike him because he is a twit, but from what I have read, his policies sound more like the Labourites....he isn't a conservative by most definitions...

[Daniel]

I can just dislike him because he is a twit, but from what I have read, his policies sound more like the Labourites....he isn't a conservative by most definitions...
I agree. Back in Australia I was a Liberal voter and the liberals are the more right leaning of the two main parties but David Cameron is just so damn dislikeable that I wouldn't vote for him.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I dislike him because a) He is a Tory and b) He looks like a thumb.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I agree. Back in Australia I was a Liberal voter and the liberals are the more right leaning of the two main parties but David Cameron is just so damn dislikeable that I wouldn't vote for him.

Everything I have read about the man is he has taken the party of Margaret Thatcher to the LEFT of the modern day Labour party. I am to the right of center, but I can tell you from what I have read of British politics from this side of the pond, I like Brown a lot better than Cameron. I didn't like much about Blair, but I did understand a bit of what he was about in ways I don't relate to the left in North America. The Labour party in the UK is more of a centerist party now, and that isn't always a bad thing if not for the fact the alternative is racing them to the center. People in the UK need a clearer choice than just the personlity of the Dour Brown vs the idiot that Cameron can come off as.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

The interview of Gordon Brown by Pierce Morgan improved my opinion of him.

[BDunnell]

The interview of Gordon Brown by Pierce Morgan improved my opinion of him.

Fewer people watched Piers Morgan interviewing Gordon Brown than watched Piers Morgan interviewing Ronnie Corbett!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Fewer people watched Piers Morgan interviewing Gordon Brown than watched Piers Morgan interviewing Ronnie Corbett!

Ronnie Corbett for Prime Minister?

Maybe that just proves how boring people think Gordon Brown is.

[driveace]

Lets get something straight for all the people on this thread from around the world,Gordon Brown was NOT elected as Prime Minister by ANYONE in the UK,he did a deal with that Tw** Tony Blair,that when Blair stepped aside that Brown would take over the leadership,SO he is an unelected PM.
That is the big beef of thousands of Uk voters,.Labour have been in power now for over11 years,and we had an illegal war,greedy polititions lining their own pockets and sticking two fingers up to the voters.Promises of this that and anything that they think the voters want.And nothing gets better,they had an OPEN door on imigration,so anybody could come in,they gave them free houses,money for relatives still living in their original countrys they came from,and the people ,born and bred in the UK get the raw deal all the time.That is why BNP are getting a foothold in UK politics.We have all had enough and NEED a change.My local Liberal MP sent a letter out saying how disgusted he was at all the money claimed by polititions for expenses,guess what.He was one of the WORST claimers!!!!

[Malbec]

I have an uneducated question to you Brits. It looks like the political lines are drawn and everybody knows where Tories, Labour and Liberals stand. What about personalities? How do you rate them?

To me Gordon Brown seems to be a likeable man, who made a fair share of mistakes but those were honest mistakes, more often than not. Based on personality I would prefer him over David "Too-Nice-To-Be-True" Cameron. Whaddaya think?

I think the political lines are very much NOT drawn. It looks like the different parties have converged policies so that you cannot predict that, say, the Tories stand for tax cuts as a matter of course whilst Labour and the Lib Dems look to raise them, or that the Tories look to privatise things whilst Labour look to nationalise. The Tories are often to Labour's left on some issues and to their right on others and visa versa.

IMO this is the reason for the greater reliance on personalities, after all Tony Blair changed everything by turning the Labour party into the true heirs of Thatcher and asking for people to trust HIM (not his party) over the Tories 11 years ago. You might not be able to choose between the Tories and Labour in terms of policies so there is no option but to stress the different personalities of the leaders to get clear water between the political parties.

[Malbec]

A Doctor friend of mine met David Cameron when he visited the hospital where he works and he got a very positive impression from him. Cameron has a disabled son and seems to have first hand experience and sympathy for the NHS.

It has to be said that Labour have truly lost the support of the NHS with their mismanagement and lies over the past decade. A decade ago many people within the NHS were too embarrassed to own up to supporting the Tories, now its the opposite.

At the last election the nurses union forked out their own cash to pay for an anti-Tory ad campaign, two years later they slow-clapped the Labour health minister out of their conference in disgust.

Cameron has worked hard to get trust from NHS workers though and he's done that by engaging directly with nurses and doctors' bodies. I was there when he addressed the junior doctors protest march a few years ago and the atmosphere was electric. It also said a lot that the Labour health minister and junior health minister were both invited and refused to attend.

Still I don't think Cameron is going to be any softer than Labour when it comes to cutting the NHS budget after the election whatever he promises now.

[Rollo]

Cameron has worked hard to get trust from NHS workers though and he's done that by engaging directly with nurses and doctors' bodies.

You have to get behind someone in order to stab them in the back.

[Malbec]

You have to get behind someone in order to stab them in the back.

Behind who?

Given Labours extremely close relationships with medical unions (in particular the nurses) the Conservatives only won their loyalty after Labour lost it and did it pretty openly as far as I remember. I also remember the Conservatives proposing some very serious policy changes that meant that they had done their homework, a bit of a shock after their superficial and ignorant anti-MRSA campaign only a few years before.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Lots of interesting opinions here, many thanks.

I was quite surprised to learn about leftist leanings of the Tories and fact that the right/left division has been blurred. Now it all really comes down to personality. Brown still seems to me more intelligent and honest, but that's not necessarily a winning combination. Cameron may be a twit, but he is a shrewd politician and knows how to engage people. I will not be surprise if his party wins.

[BeansBeansBeans]

they had an OPEN door on imigration

No they didn't.


so anybody could come in

No they couldn't.


they gave them free houses

No they didn't.


money for relatives still living in their original countrys they came from

LOL


and the people ,born and bred in the UK get the raw deal all the time.

Not in my experience.

[Daniel]

Lets get something straight for all the people on this thread from around the world,Gordon Brown was NOT elected as Prime Minister by ANYONE in the UK,he did a deal with that Tw** Tony Blair,that when Blair stepped aside that Brown would take over the leadership,SO he is an unelected PM.

You clearly have little idea of how the electoral system works. You don't vote for the PM, you vote for your local member and then if their party has enough seats the person THEY choose to be leader is leader.

[Daniel]

And nothing gets better,they had an OPEN door on imigration,so anybody could come in,they gave them free houses,money for relatives still living in their original countrys they came from,and the people ,born and bred in the UK get the raw deal all the time.

Why wasn't I told this when I went to the Border Agency office in Liverpool to apply for a residence permit back in May 2008?

I'm an immigant and I had to apply for various things, pay hundred of pounds, bring various documents proving that Caroline and I had lived together for the last 2 years and after all of this I've got to do it AGAIN in May and I didn't even get a free house or any money for my parents back in Australia :confused: I'm going to right to my local MP and ask where I claim my free house! It's a bloody outrage, they're only getting free houses because they're darkies or something :rotflmao:

[BeansBeansBeans]

I'm an immigant and I had to apply for various things, pay hundred of pounds, bring various documents proving that Caroline and I had lived together for the last 2 years and after all of this I've got to do it AGAIN in May and I didn't even get a free house or any money for my parents back in Australia :confused: I'm going to right to my local MP and ask where I claim my free house! It's a bloody outrage, they're only getting free houses because they're darkies or something :rotflmao:

It's an outrage! I know this bloke from Kosovo, right, he got given a free trolley dash round Harrods and a helicopter gunship full of organic cider.

You couldn't make it up.

[Daniel]

It's an outrage! I know this bloke from Kosovo, right, he got given a free trolley dash round Harrods and a helicopter gunship full of organic cider.

You couldn't make it up.
Too right mate!

I just don't get who makes all this stuff up because no one gets free houses or anything....

[Garry Walker]

I dislike David Cameron on the grounds of his (a) being leader of a party I will never, ever vote for, and which, deep down, hasn't really changed,

How very open minded of you.

[Rollo]

Behind who?

Given Labours extremely close relationships with medical unions (in particular the nurses) the Conservatives only won their loyalty after Labour lost it and did it pretty openly as far as I remember. I also remember the Conservatives proposing some very serious policy changes that meant that they had done their homework, a bit of a shock after their superficial and ignorant anti-MRSA campaign only a few years before.

Behind who? The NHS. Remember David Cameron is not the Tories, merely a single member of the party; which several would rather like to see the whole thing privatised.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/12/28/kick-in-the-privates-115875-21926813/
Health Secretary Andy Burnham said: "No matter what cast-iron guarantees David Cameron gives in public, it is now clear, in private, he is discussing abandoning the NHS as we know it."

Of course it makes sense to get all chummy with the NHS. It helps to be nice to someone just before you pull something really nasty.


I dislike David Cameron on the grounds of his (a) being leader of a party I will never, ever vote for, and which, deep down, hasn't really changed,

I concur.

Admittedly the choice between Labour and the Conservatives is like choosing between the lesser of two evils, but it does not change the fact that after you've chosen, you have still chosen an evil.

[BDunnell]

It's an outrage! I know this bloke from Kosovo, right, he got given a free trolley dash round Harrods and a helicopter gunship full of organic cider.

You couldn't make it up.

That's nothing. Someone I know told me about eight British people, good, honest blokes, salt of the earth, who were practically forced to become homosexuals if they wanted to stay in this country and claim benefits. I ask you.

[Daniel]

That's nothing. Someone I know told me about eight British people, good, honest blokes, salt of the earth, who were practically forced to become homosexuals if they wanted to stay in this country and claim benefits. I ask you.
Political correctness gone mad! Jeremy Clarkson for PM!!!!!!!!

[BeansBeansBeans]

Page 7 - Broken Britain. Our Once-Great Nation In Moral Decline.

Pages 1, 2, 3, 15, 16 - EXCLUSIVE! Page 3 hottie lifts lid on kinky trysts with top soccer boss.

[Daniel]

Page 7 - Broken Britain. Our Once-Great Nation In Moral Decline.

Pages 1, 2, 3, 15, 16 - EXCLUSIVE! Page 3 hottie lifts lid on kinky trysts with top soccer boss.
Reminds me of the Simspons episode You Kent always say what you want where Lisa says this about Fox "One thing I've always wondered… How can Fox News be so conservative when the Fox Network keeps airing raunchy shows? They don't fit together"

Then there's this exchange between Marge and Homer when Kent Brockman comes to live with them after Homer gets him fired :)

Homer: I'm sorry Marge, but I won't live under the same roof as a member of the liberal media!
Marge: You'll have to excuse him, he's been watching a lot of Fox News.
Homer: Did you know that every day Mexican gays sneak into this country and unplug our brain-dead ladies?

Reminds me of some of our North American chums on the forum :D