The world of Fiero, so he has spoken, so it shall be.

[Hondo]

Obama has agreed to sell Taiwan a long wish list of weapon systems very much against the wishes of our owner, China.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.eba0f1f44dc56eaae2cdf53db03b2f4 e.661&show_article=1

If you live in Taiwan and think it's good news, it isn't. What he has actually done is to put you are on notice that you're on your own. We aren't coming. We sold you the weapons you wanted to maintain your freedom and you didn't do it and we aren't coming.

We will however, get a sharp note of protest in the UN inbox right away.

[Eki]

Taiwan is actually a living proof for that China isn't a warlike nation. 60 years of talk about Taiwan, but no action.

[Valve Bounce]

Taiwan is actually a living proof for that China isn't a warlike nation. 60 years of talk about Taiwan, but no action.

Tell that to the Tibetans, Eki. :rolleyes:

[Mark in Oshawa]

Taiwan is actually a living proof for that China isn't a warlike nation. 60 years of talk about Taiwan, but no action.

The 7th fleet kind of got in the way Eki. Remember what I said about how superpowers tend not to not want to confront each other head on? Well for years the US was physically there protecting Taiwan. Fiero is saying maybe they are on their own now....

Personally? I think until about 20 years ago, China had enough on its plate that taking Taiwan was just lipservice. Still, I look at what they do to minorities like Tibet, and wonder just what will they do if they do get it into their heads and be serious about invading Taiwan.

[anthonyvop]

Tell that to the Tibetans, Eki. :rolleyes:

And the Koreans and the Vietnamese.

[Jag_Warrior]

If only it were true, then good. One down... a few dozen more to go. But I suspect when we get to the I's, there'll be squealing like a stuck pig (no pun intended).

[Hondo]

I think Obama is pulling back into military isolationism as much as possible. He now says he intends to start the withdrawl from Afghanistan in 2011. He set no conditions for withdrawl, only that we're leaving. If the Taliban and al-Qaeda factions are smart, they will cease operations and allow him to flee. The faster things quiet down, the faster we will leave. The planned, world saving invasion of Iran in order to defang their nuclear program has been called off. Obama, far from having the respect of world leadership, is instead viewed as an arrogant, glib, gutless joke. He is an organizer, not a leader. The majority of people that voted him into office in this country now wish they hadn't. He knows that some in his own party wanted to put George Bush on trial over Irag. He sees what the Brits are doing, foolishly, to Blair over Iraq. Without an intentional, overt act of war by the Iranian government, Obama, thankfully, won't be invading. In fact, we will be coming home from the Middle East completely. The man went to the Middle East offering to bring peace to the region and was sent packing. You don't do that to a man with Obama's arrogance and ego. His plan rejected, he will be quite content to watch the region tear itself to shreds. Everybody, including the Saudis and Israel, will be on their own.

I'll be glad we are leaving. We have no business there.

[F1boat]

IMO China is slowly becoming the number 1 superpower in the world, any idea about confrontation with it is ridiculous. The whole world will fall from ecomomic crisis if this to happen. But I doubt that they will invade Taiwan, IMO. But they will not give freedom to anyone, IMO.
About the Middle East, I don't think that you can do a lot there. All the sides are unwilling for compromise, Arabians, Israelis, Iranians. It seems that they want to hate each other. What can you do about this?

[Easy Drifter]

I am not saying China wouldn't invade Taiwan if they thought it would be advantageous to do so and they thought they could avoid a major war.
However, China knows an invasion would be fairly costly and most likely most of Taiwan's infastruture would be badly damaged.
There is more cooperation and trade between the entities than many people realize.
When we had our fishing tackle store our best selling reel by far was Okuma a mainland Chinese Co. Some models of their reels were made in Taiwan!

[Eki]

And the Koreans and the Vietnamese.
What about them? China hasn't invaded them.

Edit: OK, I was wrong China attacked Vietnam in 1979 after Vietnam had invaded Cambodia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War


The Sino–Vietnamese War (Vietnamese: Chiến tranh biên giới Việt-Trung/ 戰爭邊界越-中?), also known as the Third Indochina War, was a brief but bloody border war fought in 1979 between the People's Republic of China (PRC) and the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. The PRC launched the offensive in response to Vietnam's invasion and occupation of Cambodia, which ended the reign of the PRC-backed Khmer Rouge. After a brief incursion into Northern Vietnam, PRC troops withdrew about a month later. Both sides claimed victory in the last of the Indochina Wars of the twentieth century; practically speaking, though, since Vietnamese troops remained in Cambodia until 1989 it can be said that the PRC failed to achieve their goal of dissuading Vietnam from involvement in Cambodia.

But still, Korea?

[Hondo]

What about them? China hasn't invaded them.

Edit: OK, I was wrong China attacked Vietnam in 1979 after Vietnam had invaded Cambodia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War



But still, Korea?

China has made many runs at Vietnam in the last 2000 years. And Vietnam does what it always does, beat them outright or wait them out. The last incursion in '79 was not a victory on both sides. You had army consisting of indifferent conscripts led by officers with no experience invading the home turf of a country that was coming off 20 years of constant warfare with France, the USA, Korea, Austraia, and others. People forget that the USA in Vietnam was actually part of a SEATO operation.

Anyway, Vietnam allowed China to wander in deep enough then closed the door and started kicking the hell out of the Chinese. Noting that things were not going well, China announced Vietnam had been punished enough and made it officially ok to throw your equipment away and flee for the border. Fortunately for Vietnam, China has not elected to punish them again for offenses real or imagined.

China, other than size, is a complete unknown in the area of military effectiveness. The way wars have been fought from WWII to present makes the reaction of the civillian population unknown.

I don't think anyone wants a shooting war with China over Taiwan. I don't believe China has a modern, effective field army either. China does have enough people to just completely overwhelm Taiwan. Logistic support for Chinese troops in Taiwan is a walk in the park. Maintaining logstic support for SEATO troops and Taiwanese civillians would be a nightmare and probably not possible. I think Taiwan would employ the standard Asian capitalist battle plan early on. The wealthy, high political figures, and high level military officers will grab their wealth, hoarded gold, and anything else of value they can carry and refugee their butts out of there. A few field grade officers with dedicated troops will try to offer some resistance but will be overwhelmed quickly. The working classes that cannot refugee out of there will just submit to the new authority. It's hard to justify losing your life to protect your country when those above you, sworn to protect you and your country, left town last week.

China can have Taiwan if it wants it, but doing it in agreement with the Taiwanese would be better.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think Obama is pulling back into military isolationism as much as possible. He now says he intends to start the withdrawl from Afghanistan in 2011. He set no conditions for withdrawl, only that we're leaving. If the Taliban and al-Qaeda factions are smart, they will cease operations and allow him to flee. The faster things quiet down, the faster we will leave. The planned, world saving invasion of Iran in order to defang their nuclear program has been called off. Obama, far from having the respect of world leadership, is instead viewed as an arrogant, glib, gutless joke. He is an organizer, not a leader. The majority of people that voted him into office in this country now wish they hadn't. He knows that some in his own party wanted to put George Bush on trial over Irag. He sees what the Brits are doing, foolishly, to Blair over Iraq. Without an intentional, overt act of war by the Iranian government, Obama, thankfully, won't be invading. In fact, we will be coming home from the Middle East completely. The man went to the Middle East offering to bring peace to the region and was sent packing. You don't do that to a man with Obama's arrogance and ego. His plan rejected, he will be quite content to watch the region tear itself to shreds. Everybody, including the Saudis and Israel, will be on their own.

I'll be glad we are leaving. We have no business there.

A few thoughts Fireo. First off, I agree in that Obama is thin skinned and isn't impressed by the fact no one in the Middle East seems to care what he thinks. I disagree he wanted to go into Iran. Obama hasn't that sort of temper for that sort of thing. I think avoiding conflicts abroad is more his idea of foreign policy, and that is fine until you back your nation into a corner.

Telling the world you are pulling out on a set date is utter stupidity. Might as well leave now and forget the whole thing then. It disrepects the losses suffered already, but Obama could care less about that. The reality is Obama isn't going to get the Miltary vote and never did, so what he does with them matters little to him.

As for leaving the Middle East to their devices, well I think the US has in theory wanted to do that, but keeps finding ways to get stuck in there. Isolationism in US foreign policy doesn't seem to work Fiero. Too many nations expect the US to do something, until of course they do it, and then it is all wrong....because we all know that no matter who is President, or what happens, it is all the American's fault.....right Eki? It is always their fault? Or did I miss something?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Eki...by the way...ask the Koreans about the police action called the Korean War? Who you think has propped up those nut jobs starving the North Koreans to death in one of the most awful regimes on earth?

[steve_spackman]

A few thoughts Fireo. First off, I agree in that Obama is thin skinned and isn't impressed by the fact no one in the Middle East seems to care what he thinks. I disagree he wanted to go into Iran. Obama hasn't that sort of temper for that sort of thing. I think avoiding conflicts abroad is more his idea of foreign policy, and that is fine until you back your nation into a corner.

Telling the world you are pulling out on a set date is utter stupidity. Might as well leave now and forget the whole thing then. It disrepects the losses suffered already, but Obama could care less about that. The reality is Obama isn't going to get the Miltary vote and never did, so what he does with them matters little to him.

As for leaving the Middle East to their devices, well I think the US has in theory wanted to do that, but keeps finding ways to get stuck in there. Isolationism in US foreign policy doesn't seem to work Fiero. Too many nations expect the US to do something, until of course they do it, and then it is all wrong....because we all know that no matter who is President, or what happens, it is all the American's fault.....right Eki? It is always their fault? Or did I miss something?

Too many nations expect the US to do something??? Nonsense, as they have a habit of going it no matter what anyone else thinks...those days have come to a halt im glad to say....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Too many nations expect the US to do something??? Nonsense, as they have a habit of going it no matter what anyone else thinks...those days have come to a halt im glad to say....

BS...do you remember the abuse Clinton got for NOT doing something to stop the slaughter in Rwanda? How about all the abuse George Clooney and the like gave Bush for NOT putting troops on the ground to stop the slaughter in Darfur. It appears if the US goes in, they are the bad guys (Iraq) or doesn't go in (Rwanda and Darfur). By the way, when they go in, and leave the job they went into finish (Somalia) it often is a worse result than not going there at all.

[Hondo]

Sorry Mark, I do think Obama had/has an invasion plan for Iran to cripple their nuclear programs. Obama ran under "hope and change" without being specific about what those changes would be. He has ego and arrogance on par with Hitler, Stalin, Bin Laden, and Saddam. If the world does a turn around, acknowledges Obama's obvious superiority and comes forth on bended knee seeking help in stopping Iran's nuclear program, then he will invade and stomp their nukes. The pleas for help must be public and not back room deals. But, every country in the Middle East including Israel has spanked Obama and sent him, his offers, and his threats on his way. The idiots in Britain are deep frying Blair for trying to do a right thing, while they make excuses for the likes of Mugabe and his minions.

Obama will not invade Iran without a clear and public worldwide mandate.

The USA is finished as a global military power for at least the next 3 years. Anybody expecting help or looking for help from us better start looking elsewhere.

[Hondo]

Alright class. Jihad. To me, and I could be wrong, is an Islamic term defining a holy war. I would think the conditions of a holy war would be set in stone by Allah and not open to change or negotiations by mere humans. Therefore, a Jihad has absolute goals and continues until one side or another is beaten, or the goals of the jihad have been met.

The Taliban's jihad is to bring the world to the love of Islam and the imposition of Sharia Law worldwide.

Most of the al-Qaeda factions and similar organizations are doing jihad for the same reasons as the Taliban.

Bin Laden's jihad is more directly anti-American. First he wanted the USA out of Israel, then out of Saudi Arabia, then out of both, and now out of the Middle East completely.

From day one I have told you that none of this is about Islam except for the grunt troops, bombers, etc. That is how they are recruited and kept focused on their mission and sold to the media.

The mid and top level thugs know it for the ciminal organization it is. They are in it for money and power.

Pakistan entered into an agreement with the Taliban wich has not gone well, but it was an attempt. As one Taliban fighter said "they promised us jobs but did not keep their promise."

The government of Yemen is trying to negotiate a settlement with their al-Qaeda faction.

The Kabul government in Afghanistan wants to negotiate a settlement with the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Bin Laden, not realizing nobody is going to negotiate with him about anything, has now entered the Global Warming fight. He is not doing a good job of keeping up with the media and doesn't know how very few still buy into man made global warming. Although he still commands power within his group and is still dangerous, the rest of radical Islam has dismissed him as a total meatball.

The mere fact that all are now willing to negotiate should expose their entire jihad pretense as the lie it is. To the fighter in Pakistan, What does not being given a job have to do with converting the world to Islam? How does getting a job end your sacred duty to jihad? What kind of an idiot includes global warming in a jihad?

It's not about Islam, never was.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Sorry Mark, I do think Obama had/has an invasion plan for Iran to cripple their nuclear programs. Obama ran under "hope and change" without being specific about what those changes would be. He has ego and arrogance on par with Hitler, Stalin, Bin Laden, and Saddam. If the world does a turn around, acknowledges Obama's obvious superiority and comes forth on bended knee seeking help in stopping Iran's nuclear program, then he will invade and stomp their nukes. The pleas for help must be public and not back room deals. But, every country in the Middle East including Israel has spanked Obama and sent him, his offers, and his threats on his way. The idiots in Britain are deep frying Blair for trying to do a right thing, while they make excuses for the likes of Mugabe and his minions.

Obama will not invade Iran without a clear and public worldwide mandate.

The USA is finished as a global military power for at least the next 3 years. Anybody expecting help or looking for help from us better start looking elsewhere.


You are right on Obama being rather proud (arrogant? some would say...) and how the Middle East nations have more or less dismissed his grovelling, but I can tell you that the Obama administration would invade Iran is you reading this all wrong. After the shellacking Bush and Blair have taken in opinion around the world, even if he WANTED to attack, he would.

Let's face it, Obama is a proud guy but he was elected on ridiculing America's invasion of the willing in Iraq and he the way he dithered on the surge in Afghanistan says to me he wouldn't go to war if the missles are in the air. You have read Obama wrong Fiero. He is a guy who would try to negotiate as his throat was being cut. It is the reason none of the nations in the Middle East will give him a hearing. It would be worse (and I cant believe I am saying this) if not for Hillary Clinton. I think they see Obama as naive, but I think the nations there have some comfort level with Hillary...

[Mark in Oshawa]

Alright class. Jihad. To me, and I could be wrong, is an Islamic term defining a holy war. I would think the conditions of a holy war would be set in stone by Allah and not open to change or negotiations by mere humans. Therefore, a Jihad has absolute goals and continues until one side or another is beaten, or the goals of the jihad have been met.

The Taliban's jihad is to bring the world to the love of Islam and the imposition of Sharia Law worldwide.

Most of the al-Qaeda factions and similar organizations are doing jihad for the same reasons as the Taliban.

Bin Laden's jihad is more directly anti-American. First he wanted the USA out of Israel, then out of Saudi Arabia, then out of both, and now out of the Middle East completely.

From day one I have told you that none of this is about Islam except for the grunt troops, bombers, etc. That is how they are recruited and kept focused on their mission and sold to the media.

The mid and top level thugs know it for the ciminal organization it is. They are in it for money and power.

Pakistan entered into an agreement with the Taliban wich has not gone well, but it was an attempt. As one Taliban fighter said "they promised us jobs but did not keep their promise."

The government of Yemen is trying to negotiate a settlement with their al-Qaeda faction.

The Kabul government in Afghanistan wants to negotiate a settlement with the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Bin Laden, not realizing nobody is going to negotiate with him about anything, has now entered the Global Warming fight. He is not doing a good job of keeping up with the media and doesn't know how very few still buy into man made global warming. Although he still commands power within his group and is still dangerous, the rest of radical Islam has dismissed him as a total meatball.

The mere fact that all are now willing to negotiate should expose their entire jihad pretense as the lie it is. To the fighter in Pakistan, What does not being given a job have to do with converting the world to Islam? How does getting a job end your sacred duty to jihad? What kind of an idiot includes global warming in a jihad?

It's not about Islam, never was.

To those that are recruited to be foot soldiers, it is about Islam. They are sucked in by these criminals such as Bin Laden and the Sheik of the month club in the Taliban. Islamic hardliners hate everything about Western society, and the criminals as you describe ARE all about explioting this and pouring gasoline on this dissent.

The leaders are just crooks, but the reason this works is because the guy putting the dynomite in his undies DOES believe. AS Hitler discovered in Russia, a motivated soldier willing to be more fatalistic about dying will win, no matter how good your guys are if everything else is equal.

[Eki]

Eki...by the way...ask the Koreans about the police action called the Korean War? Who you think has propped up those nut jobs starving the North Koreans to death in one of the most awful regimes on earth?
If China invaded North Korea, then the US invaded South Korea. And Germany invaded Finland both in 1918 and 1941.

[Easy Drifter]

Horsefeathers! Korea was a UN operation. The UN forces and the ROK had the North Koreans who had invaded the South pushed back almost to the China border when the Chinese Army crossed into North Korea!

[Mark in Oshawa]

If China invaded North Korea, then the US invaded South Korea. And Germany invaded Finland both in 1918 and 1941.

Eki, drop the Finland argument. We are talking about the Chinese. The UN was called in when the Russian and Chinese backed North Korean's invaded the South. They took over half of what was the former Japanese "colony" of Korea (Korea was always one culture and one country until the USSR and Chinese Communists put their puppet in power in Pyongyang). The UN Security Council was able to pass a policy to stop this aggression by the North when the USSR walked out of the meeting. Something they never did again. So when the inevitable butt kicking takes place by the UN forces, the Chinese then come over the border to establish once gain the People's Republic of Korea, and what is more, They have backed that Regime. So while you say the Chinese are benovolent and don't mean harm, I guess you better just put the North down as just invisible victims of Bejjing, because that little mutant in power there now is there at the behest of Bejjing......

[Eki]

Eki, drop the Finland argument. We are talking about the Chinese. The UN was called in when the Russian and Chinese backed North Korean's invaded the South.
Yes, and similarly the North Koreans called the Russians and the Chinese in, they didn't invade.

[Easy Drifter]

But it started when the Chinese backed and armed North Koreans invaded South Korea.

[anthonyvop]

Yes, and similarly the North Koreans called the Russians and the Chinese in, they didn't invade.
Do they even try to teach history in Finland?

It is fairly common knowledge that the North Koreans invade the south with Soviet and Chinese support.

[Eki]

Do they even try to teach history in Finland?

It is fairly common knowledge that the North Koreans invade the south with Soviet and Chinese support.
You were talking about Koreans, not South Koreans specifically. North Koreans are Koreans too, and they weren't invaded by the Chinese, on the contrary, they asked for support.

And China intervened only after US troops were already there:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War#China_intervenes


China intervenes


On 27 June 1950, two days after the KPA invaded and three months before the October Chinese intervention to the Korean War, President Truman dispatched the 7th US Fleet to the Taiwan Straits, to protect Nationalist Republic of China from the People’s Republic of China (PRC).[75] On 4 August 1950, Mao Zedong reported to the Politburo that he would intervene when the People's Volunteer Army (PVA) was ready to deploy. On 20 August 1950, Premier Zhou Enlai informed the United Nations that “Korea is China’s neighbor ... The Chinese people cannot but be concerned about a solution of the Korean question”—thus, via neutral-country diplomats, China warned the US, that in safeguarding Chinese national security, they would intervene against the UN Command in Korea.[39]:83 President Truman interpreted the communication as “a bald attempt to blackmail the UN”, and dismissed it.[76] The Politburo authorized Chinese intervention in Korea on 2 October 1950—the day after the ROK Army crossed the 38th-parallel border.[77] Later, the Chinese claimed that US bombers had violated PRC national airspace when on en route to bomb North Korea—before China intervened.[78]

[F1boat]

Tony does not trust wikipedia, though - guess it is too left for him.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Yes, and similarly the North Koreans called the Russians and the Chinese in, they didn't invade.
EKi..who put the North Korean Kim's in power? Who do you think was calling the shots there? Gawd help us, you really are obtuse....

[F1boat]

When all is said and done, I have to say that I pity immensely the North Koreans. Their leaders are totally insane IMO.

[Easy Drifter]

The point is North Korea invaded South Korea with Chinese support.
The United Nations came to South Koreas aid.
Eki you support the UN when it suits you and ignore it or digenerate the rest of the time.
The ROK army and United Nations forces, including US troops, eventually counterattacked from the small enclave they had been forced into and with an amphibious landing elsewhere drove the North Koreans back almost to the Chinese border.
At that point China attacked the ROK and United Nation forces.
Note United Nations not US.
No matter what spin you try and put on it China sent troops against South Korea and the United Nations.

[F1boat]

Eki you support the UN when it suits you and ignore it or digenerate the rest of the time.


As many supporters of other political forces :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

When all is said and done, I have to say that I pity immensely the North Koreans. Their leaders are totally insane IMO.
They are Boat, and the thing is, they are the people suffering but it would all be swept out tomorrow if the Chinese stopped propping up the regime there....

[Mark in Oshawa]

AS for the assertion Eki picks and chooses when he supports the UN, I notice he only ignores the UN when they actually accomplish a task that is within the original mandate of why they were founded or enforces a resolultion. He is all about having the UN, but not big on them actually doing some good...instead of just talking about it..

[Eki]

The point is North Korea invaded South Korea with Chinese support.
The United Nations came to South Koreas aid.

And in the Finnish Civil War the "Red" Finland invaded the "White" Finland with Russian support and Swedish volunteers and German troops came to aid the "White" Finland. Or was it the vice versa ... I don't know.

The US trumps the UN as we all know since the Iraq invasion of 2003. If the US says "jump", the UN will ask "how high" and then mumble something in disagreement behind the back of the US.

[Mark in Oshawa]

And in the Finnish Civil War the "Red" Finland invaded the "White" Finland with Russian support and Swedish volunteers and German troops came to aid the "White" Finland. Or was it the vice versa ... I don't know.

The US trumps the UN as we all know since the Iraq invasion of 2003. If the US says "jump", the UN will ask "how high" and then mumble something in disagreement behind the back of the US.

Really? You are kidding right? The UN didn't want Bush in Iraq to enforce THEIR resolution. Hans Blix didn't agree with Dubya. Kofi Annan's son was hassled and put on charges through the US, not through the UN for the oil-for-food scam. America almost NEVER gets along with the UN. The UN Gen Assembly is full of people who think pretty similar to you Eki...and it is the reason many in the US would LOVE to see the UN banished to Siberia or some place that wants it.....

Don't give me this crap about the UN being an American lap dog Eki, it really hasn't since the 50's done much that the American's want except get in the way...

[Eki]

Really? You are kidding right? The UN didn't want Bush in Iraq to enforce THEIR resolution. Hans Blix didn't agree with Dubya.
Still the UN didn't do anything to stop the US from invading. At least the UN predecessor the League of Nations expelled the Soviet Union for invading Finland in 1939:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_war


The Winter War (Finnish: talvisota, Swedish: vinterkriget, Russian: Зимняя войн&#1072 ;) [18] was a military conflict between the Soviet Union and Finland. It began with a Soviet offensive on 30 November 1939—three months after the start of World War II and the Soviet invasion of Poland—and ended on 13 March 1940 with the Moscow Peace Treaty. The League of Nations deemed the attack illegal and expelled the Soviet Union on 14 December 1939.

Double standards?

[steve_spackman]

BS...do you remember the abuse Clinton got for NOT doing something to stop the slaughter in Rwanda? How about all the abuse George Clooney and the like gave Bush for NOT putting troops on the ground to stop the slaughter in Darfur. It appears if the US goes in, they are the bad guys (Iraq) or doesn't go in (Rwanda and Darfur). By the way, when they go in, and leave the job they went into finish (Somalia) it often is a worse result than not going there at all.

Put troops down in Darfur and Rwanda? Whats in those 2 countries that is of vital interest? Nothing , thats why they never got any help....Whats down near Haiti thats of vital interest?? Lets see Russia and China making a presence in that area (south america) for starters..oh and let not forget the USA's best buddy Mr Chavez!

[Easy Drifter]

Eki we are talking the Koreas not Finland. Quit trying to weasel out of your untenable position.
Steve what are you blathering about over Haiti? The country has nothing and is devastated. There are people and troops there from all over the free world.
Humanitarian aid is coming from all sorts of private people, not just countries.
Sure there are combat troops there from the US (and Canada) to keep order in a country that lost most of its police force.

[steve_spackman]

Eki we are talking the Koreas not Finland. Quit trying to weasel out of your untenable position.
Steve what are you blathering about over Haiti? The country has nothing and is devastated. There are people and troops there from all over the free world.
Humanitarian aid is coming from all sorts of private people, not just countries.
Sure there are combat troops there from the US (and Canada) to keep order in a country that lost most of its police force.

Well lets hope the people get the help they need...thats the most important thing at the end of the day

[Mark in Oshawa]

Put troops down in Darfur and Rwanda? Whats in those 2 countries that is of vital interest? Nothing , thats why they never got any help....Whats down near Haiti thats of vital interest?? Lets see Russia and China making a presence in that area (south america) for starters..oh and let not forget the USA's best buddy Mr Chavez!

Holey crap....Clinton and Bush took HEAT from the chattering classes for NOT doing something in Rwanda and Darfur and took heat from the same people for Iraq. My point is the US is damend if they do, damned if they don't. Now you condemn the US for being in Haiti. I guess you better put Canada and Brazil in there as conquerers too, because we both have troops in there.

My point has been always is the USA is always wrong. If they get involved somewhere, whether they have a noble goal or just a goal, they are wrong, and then they get slammed for helping poor nations with nothing. There were people slagging Clinton moving the Marines into Somaila because it was a failed state and then all over him for pulling them OUT less than a year later.

If you hate the Americans like you and Eki seem to Steve, then nothing they do outside there borders is ever justified now is it?

AS for you Eki, the Soviet Union was tossed out of the League for invading Finland but that happened to be more feckless than the useless UN. THe reason the USA isn't tossed should be obvious. 1/3 of the Budget of the UN comes from the USA. Believe me, there a ton of Americans that would love it shipped to Helsinki or some other "englightened" capital and they could just get out of it. Believe me, Americans on the citizen level probably would vote to get the heck out of the UN. As a Canadian, I would love to see the Americans out and Canada out, but I know the latter would never happen...

[steve_spackman]

Holey crap....Clinton and Bush took HEAT from the chattering classes for NOT doing something in Rwanda and Darfur and took heat from the same people for Iraq. My point is the US is damend if they do, damned if they don't. Now you condemn the US for being in Haiti. I guess you better put Canada and Brazil in there as conquerers too, because we both have troops in there.

My point has been always is the USA is always wrong. If they get involved somewhere, whether they have a noble goal or just a goal, they are wrong, and then they get slammed for helping poor nations with nothing. There were people slagging Clinton moving the Marines into Somaila because it was a failed state and then all over him for pulling them OUT less than a year later.

If you hate the Americans like you and Eki seem to Steve, then nothing they do outside there borders is ever justified now is it?

AS for you Eki, the Soviet Union was tossed out of the League for invading Finland but that happened to be more feckless than the useless UN. THe reason the USA isn't tossed should be obvious. 1/3 of the Budget of the UN comes from the USA. Believe me, there a ton of Americans that would love it shipped to Helsinki or some other "englightened" capital and they could just get out of it. Believe me, Americans on the citizen level probably would vote to get the heck out of the UN. As a Canadian, I would love to see the Americans out and Canada out, but I know the latter would never happen...

Most Americans have no clue what the UN is anyway so yeah why pay for something you have no clue about eh? ;) Also the US has a habit of ignoring the UN so why in the hell bother at all????

Hate is a strong word Mark. Im sure you know i dont HATE Americans, i just find alot of them to be VERY ignorant and think they can do as they please. That would be why alot of people (not including myself) HATE them. You have to admit they do poke their noses in where its not wanted...trying to tell others how they should run their country, when their country is in a BIG bag of poo aswell...

charity begins at home does it not?

The main reason why the US and others help these poor countries is because they play the "hearts and minds" game. We will give this and that if you guys do this and that for us...Its NOT to help them its to get what they want out of them...

[Easy Drifter]

There is nothing in Haiti to want and it was like that before the earthquake.
The poorest country in the Americas.

[steve_spackman]

The theft of Haiti has been swift and crude. On 22 January, the United States secured “formal approval” from the United Nations to take over all air and sea ports in Haiti, and to “secure” roads. No Haitian signed the agreement, which has no basis in law. Power rules in an American naval blockade and the arrival of 13,000 marines, special forces, spooks and mercenaries, none with humanitarian relief training.

The airport in the capital, Port-au-Prince, is now an American military base and relief flights have been re-routed to the Dominican Republic. All flights stopped for three hours for the arrival of Hillary Clinton. Critically injured Haitians waited unaided as 800 American residents in Haiti were fed, watered and evacuated. Six days passed before the US Air Force dropped bottled water to people suffering thirst and dehydration.

[steve_spackman]

There is nothing in Haiti to want and it was like that before the earthquake.
The poorest country in the Americas.


http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=564

In his latest column for the New Statesman, John Pilger describes the "swift and crude" appropriation of earthquake-ravaged Haiti by the militarised Obama administration. With George W. Bush attending to the "relief effort" and Bill Clinton the UN's man, The Comedians, Graham Greene's dark novel about exploted Haiti comes to mind.



The theft of Haiti has been swift and crude. On 22 January, the United States secured “formal approval” from the United Nations to take over all air and sea ports in Haiti, and to “secure” roads. No Haitian signed the agreement, which has no basis in law. Power rules in an American naval blockade and the arrival of 13,000 marines, special forces, spooks and mercenaries, none with humanitarian relief training.

The airport in the capital, Port-au-Prince, is now an American military base and relief flights have been re-routed to the Dominican Republic. All flights stopped for three hours for the arrival of Hillary Clinton. Critically injured Haitians waited unaided as 800 American residents in Haiti were fed, watered and evacuated. Six days passed before the US Air Force dropped bottled water to people suffering thirst and dehydration.

[Easy Drifter]

As I said to Eki: Horsefeathers.
The President of Haiti was at the airport early on. The control tower was demolished and the Haitian Airport staff either killed or looking for family. That is why the US took control. Canada's Dart team arrived there as did other Cdn. aid flights. DART produce large quantities of clean water hourly among other things. The reason some flights were rerouted to the Dominican Republic was that the Haitian Airport was jammed up with too many flights. At the time there literally was no space to land or park and unload planes. Many non military mercy flights have landed there since including Cdn. Flights in and out are now scheduled to avoid backups. That took time to organize and only the US was capable of setting it up. Basically an air traffic control system had to be set up from scratch!
Another problem has been so many destroyed roads or ones totally blocked with rubble it has been difficult to move supplies to where needed. Heavy equipment has to be imported as does fuel. The fuel depots were destroyed or damaged.
Canada has two warships at another area with both soldiers and sailors ashore maintaining order and providing food and water. We have set up portable field hospitals. If there is a naval blockade I guess our warships fought their way through. Sacasm aside the last thing needed are a bunch of private sightseeing boats.
Canada has over 2000 military there. With our troops in Afghanistan and more needed for security at the Oympics we are stretched very thin.
Brazil has troops there.
There are volunteer aid personal from many countries. Israel has a large fully equipped portable medical facility complete with operating rooms.
Before the Quake there were police officers from several countries in Haiti training the Haitian Police. Two of our RCMP officers were killed.
Last weekend the Barrie Police Dept. had a drive to collect donated tents to send. Barrie is a city of about 130,000. They filled a cube van with donated tents. They were shipped out today.
It is only logical for the US to take charge. They are close, relatively speaking, have the personal and equipment and the means to get them there.
I know there were teams from the UK and even Iceland operating shortly after the earthquake.
Sure there are going to be glitches and problems. There is no question there is anarchy in some areas. Remember the main prison was destroyed and all the immates escaped. Yes people are desparate but there basically is no infrastructure left with very few safe buildings. Most water systems destroyed, power plants destroyed. This makes the Tusami look like a minor event.
As also pointed out there is nothing in Haiti anyone wants.
Canada has loosened its immigration laws for Haiti and already many Cdn. families have adopted orphans.
Oh yes our Governor General is originally from Haiti.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Most Americans have no clue what the UN is anyway so yeah why pay for something you have no clue about eh? ;) Also the US has a habit of ignoring the UN so why in the hell bother at all????

They ignore the UN, the Chinese ignore the UN, Britain has at times ignored the UN, the French ignore anyone who they feel like ignoring, ...you see a trend here of course? The USSR and later Russia? God knows they used to ignore the UN, and I am pretty sure the UN didn't approve of that little adventure in Ossetia/Georgia.

Get a grip Steve, most nations with power and influence ignore the UN, yours included....The UN is full of idiots really.....and yes Americans are ignorant of the UN, but what they know, they often don't like. Charity does begin at home, and if the money spent on the UN was spent at home, I suspect you could do some good with it.


Hate is a strong word Mark. Im sure you know i dont HATE Americans, i just find alot of them to be VERY ignorant and think they can do as they please. That would be why alot of people (not including myself) HATE them. You have to admit they do poke their noses in where its not wanted...trying to tell others how they should run their country, when their country is in a BIG bag of poo aswell...

charity begins at home does it not?

You just called the USA a big bag of poo. That's nice...you go overseas to football games and start fights? I guarntee you walk around most American cities calling their town a bag of poo, even if the city IS one, you will be asking for a fight. I dont think you HATE America, but the fact we are even having the discussion should put a filter on your mouth on some of the things you accuse them of.

Are they nasty and ugly on a holiday? Some of them are, and I have heard people who work in resorts hate drunken and stupid Brits at times. Germans? God knows they expose parts they shouldn't and stay drunk all the time. Italians? Cant get them from shutting up and making a lot of noise? The French? Gawd, they don't even like themselves. As I said; get a grip every nation has its morons, clods and jerks. If you cant figure that out, maybe you might be one. Steve, I am being harsh because you just dump on a country and play to every negative stereotype you can name and if you had done that about blacks or jews, some countries would be looking at you for hate speech. Get a grip son, you know better than that and I know you do.


The main reason why the US and others help these poor countries is because they play the "hearts and minds" game. We will give this and that if you guys do this and that for us...Its NOT to help them its to get what they want out of them

Did it ever ONCE occur to you that maybe the US wants to help legitmately? Maybe they have self interest in stopping the failed state of Haiti from getting much worse and having a bunch of poor Haitians showing up in Miami as refugees. I doubt it however. The military is there because that is the only way would find 13000 people willing to help AND protect the aid workers already there. There has been riots for food, riots for water. Haiti was a failed state BEFORE the earthquake so there is no way they have any power to do anything. IF we waited for the useless UN to organize things, half of Haiti would be in the Dominican Republic looking for help by now.

The US, Canada, Brazil and other nations have been in there since day one, and all those nations sent in their military. IT is however a humantarian mission. You say the soldiers are not trained for that? Ever occur to you they are human? Have family at home? You figure when they put the uniform on they forget how to be decent to people? Stupid thing for you to say Steve. I thought you were smarter than that.....

Haiti is a mess, and there is no real upside financially or powerwise for the US or any other nation in that part of the world helping. IT is a moral imperative to help, just like the US had a carrier and naval units off shore the day of the tsunami in Indonesia and Thailand. Helping....and even then, they were accused of an motive other than just good will. UNFREAKING believeable. If they hadn't helped, you would dump on them for ignoring the pain and suffering.

You say you don't hate Americans or America? Funny way of showing it chum. Cant wait to hear what you say about Canadians.....

[F1boat]

Well lets hope the people get the help they need...thats the most important thing at the end of the day

Yes, I agree. When something like this happens, all political differences seem petty.

[Eki]

If you hate the Americans like you and Eki seem to Steve, then nothing they do outside there borders is ever justified now is it?

Have I complained that the US didn't invade Rwanda or Darfur? No.

[Eki]

Eki we are talking the Koreas not Finland.
Situation of Finland in 1918 was very similar to Korea in 1950. Big countries meddled with internal affairs of small countries and gave them weapons, training and even troops so that they can fight a civil war. Situation of Finland in 1939 was very similar to Iraq in 2003. Big countries invaded small countries saying they are going to liberate them and claimed that they were threats to the security of the big countries.

[Eki]

There is nothing in Haiti to want

Children?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8494841.stm

[Easy Drifter]

You really are a sick puppy.
By the way what has Finland done to help in Haiti?

[Eki]

You really are a sick puppy.
By the way what has Finland done to help in Haiti?
Sent doctors, nurses and a field hospital:

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Finnish+Red+Cross+field+hospital+cares+for+injured +in+Haiti/1135252279044

The UN has also asked Finland to send crises management troops, but I don't know if they are sent yet:

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/UN+asks+Finland+to+send+crisis+management+forces+t o+Haiti/1135252386350

[anthonyvop]

Sent doctors, nurses and a field hospital:

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Finnish+Red+Cross+field+hospital+cares+for+injured +in+Haiti/1135252279044
And the Finnish people? How much have they donated? US private donations has topped over $100 million dollars.

[F1boat]

It is really cynical to make a race who is kinder and better in such situation.

[anthonyvop]

It is really cynical to make a race who is kinder and better in such situation.

I am really cynical about a lot of things. It has served me well throughout my life.

[Eki]

And the Finnish people? How much have they donated? US private donations has topped over $100 million dollars.
The last I heard, private donations were about 3 million € (about= $4.12 million). Per capita it makes more than the US donations.

[anthonyvop]

The last I heard, private donations were about 3 million € (about= $4.12 million). Per capita it makes more than the US donations.

I wonder why I doubt that.

[Eki]

I wonder why I doubt that.
Beats me.

[anthonyvop]

Beats me.
actually I was wrong about the US.

Private donations by Americans expected to top those for Katrina....
$6.47 BILLION!!!!!

http://www.usatoday.com/news/sharing/2010-01-14-Haiti-donations_N.htm

[Mark in Oshawa]

Have I complained that the US didn't invade Rwanda or Darfur? No.

George Clooney did. Some people here in Canada did. Many people in the UN wanted the US to go in. There are numerous people who have advocated the US should have. You are at least consistent on no one invading anyone for any reason even if millions are dying....

[Mark in Oshawa]

actually I was wrong about the US.

Private donations by Americans expected to top those for Katrina....
$6.47 BILLION!!!!!

http://www.usatoday.com/news/sharing/2010-01-14-Haiti-donations_N.htm

Paul Volcker was in Davo's at that G20 meeting and he was quoted somewhere on the Canadian networks praising us for what we have sent. There is no medal for which nations give the most per capita, but I always notice the two nations who never seem to run out of money or resoureces to help in disasters are the USA and Canada. Maybe the EC nations do their thing as well, and I am sure they have done a lot. It is the nature of rich nations with a rich Judeo-Christian culture to want to help and give. Just one seems to be singled out if they don't do "enough" and it is wrong....

To know just how much the USA tries to help, was it not Iran that accepted aid from the US in the 90's when a terrible earth tremor leveled the city of Qum? No matter how much the two countries don't get along, the US was all set to help. Funny....I didn't see Iran offering any help when the Hurricanes hit the US hard in 06...

[steve_spackman]

You say you don't hate Americans or America? Funny way of showing it chum. Cant wait to hear what you say about Canadians.....

Mark just because i dont agree with a certain band of people does not mean i hate them...

In actual fact most of my friends are actually American.....

Canadians? Great bunch of people...seriously :)

[steve_spackman]

You just called the USA a big bag of poo. That's nice...you go overseas to football games and start fights? I guarntee you walk around most American cities calling their town a bag of poo, even if the city IS one, you will be asking for a fight. I dont think you HATE America, but the fact we are even having the discussion should put a filter on your mouth on some of the things you accuse them of.

Are they nasty and ugly on a holiday? Some of them are, and I have heard people who work in resorts hate drunken and stupid Brits at times. Germans? God knows they expose parts they shouldn't and stay drunk all the time. Italians? Cant get them from shutting up and making a lot of noise? The French? Gawd, they don't even like themselves. As I said; get a grip every nation has its morons, clods and jerks. If you cant figure that out, maybe you might be one. Steve, I am being harsh because you just dump on a country and play to every negative stereotype you can name and if you had done that about blacks or jews, some countries would be looking at you for hate speech. Get a grip son, you know better than that and I know you do.

Well Mark yes you are correct in the fact that every country has its fair share of morons..i am not disputing that at all.

What i meant by a big pag of poo is the fact that the US isnt really doing well what with mass unemployment and so forth. (just like other major countries) Why not help their own people out, like every other country should before they start poking around aother countries. Hell i wish our government would do that instead of donating money to everyone but their own.

[Eki]

You say you don't hate Americans or America? Funny way of showing it chum. Cant wait to hear what you say about Canadians.....
I disagree with you, it doesn't mean I hate you. Heck, I don't even hate anthonyvop.

[Hondo]

I disagree with you, it doesn't mean I hate you. Heck, I don't even hate anthonyvop.

See there Mark, I told you Eki didn't hate us.

[Hondo]

Most Americans have no clue what the UN is anyway so yeah why pay for something you have no clue about eh? ;) Also the US has a habit of ignoring the UN so why in the hell bother at all????

Hate is a strong word Mark. Im sure you know i dont HATE Americans, i just find alot of them to be VERY ignorant and think they can do as they please. That would be why alot of people (not including myself) HATE them. You have to admit they do poke their noses in where its not wanted...trying to tell others how they should run their country, when their country is in a BIG bag of poo aswell...

charity begins at home does it not?

The main reason why the US and others help these poor countries is because they play the "hearts and minds" game. We will give this and that if you guys do this and that for us...Its NOT to help them its to get what they want out of them...

Everytime I read something you post of a political nature I can't help but to believe you can't be older than 16 and it makes me wonder about the history you were taught, and how it was presented. I expect the USA to get slagged by people of different nationalities and Eki's attitude doesn't come as a shock considering the relationships that Finland and the USA have had together. But coming from people that display the English flag or the Union Jack for the UK irritates me at the least and sometimes angers me. Especially when you flip the Holier-Than-Thou switch to the on position. If we were in my living room by the fire and you started spitting out your garbage, I don't know if I would politely tell you to leave or just snatch you by the scruff of your neck and back of your trousers and throw you out.

Prior to WW I, almost everybody was in the empire building business. You have such notables as the Hudson's Bay Company, a monopoly set up to exploit local populations in the fur trade. The Royal African Company, a slave trading company credited with the delivery of at least one third of the slaves delivered to America, and the famous English East India Company. When China had the audacity to sieze a huge cargo of illegal opium from a British ship, Britain came back and stomped a mud hole in them until they had their cargo back, compensation, and Hong Kong, from which they would operate as they pleased. How about the Suez Canal? A project Britain wanted nothing to do with until it was up and running. Once adjustments were made to make it profitable, Britain snached control of it and kept control of it for the next 70+ years. Marching into Afghanistan to block the Russians from marching into the English East India Company.

It was the Era of Pax Britannica. The British Empire was the largest in the world. It created the expression "The sun never sets on the British Empire" because at any time of day some part of the empire was in daylight due to it's vast span. The British Empire was the self-appointed policeman of the world, meddled everywhere, and did as it wished.

The USA built the Panama Canal, for the use of all nations.

Fast forward to the last year of WWI. Russia, broke and exhausted, is already out of it. France, Britain, and Germany are at a standstill again. All three countries have squandered an entire generation of young men in futile attacks so stupidly conceived that their leaders should have been hung on criminal charges. They were all broke and had suffering civillian populations at home. They all knew that the USA would make the winning side. President Wilson had vowed to stay out of the war and, with the exception of playing fast and loose with the rules by supplying England and France with food, fuel, and war material, did so. When the plans of Germany to form an alliance with Mexico to attack the USA came to light, Wilson asked for and got a Declaration of War against Germany. Did the USA win the war? Nope, the war was ended by an armistice, but the USA, by coming in, ended the war. Although Wilson tried to push his League of Nations and mercy for the defeated policy, he was overruled by France and Britain. Both of them made real estate claims and outrageous compensation demands that Germany had no choice but to agree to. Britain and France became major players in the Middle East, Africa, and the Far East. Wilson adopts a policy that the USA should support democratic causes world wide.

Now comes WW II. The American people want to stay out of this one too. President Roosevelt is not going to let Britain go down. His own ambassador tells him to let Britain go, but he won't do it. Instead he embarks upon all kinds of legal, sort of legal, and not even close to legal programs to keep food, fuel, war material, and equipment flowing into Britain. Amercan civillians donated personal weapons to be shipped to Britain for arming the Home Guard. After the war, the British Empire was on the way out. Britain was damn near bankrupt and the USA lent them $ 4.3 bn which I believe was finally paid off in 2006. Britain got caught up in the Malayan Emergency fight communist insurgents for 10 years or so. Nassar tossed France and Britain out of Egypt and nationalized the canal. Leading France and Britain to concoct a plan with Israel to take it back by baiting Eisenhower and the USA into it but Ike didn't bite. So Nasser went ahead and natioalized the British banks while he was at it. Britain created Israel. Britain created the India-Pakistan partition (borders) that are the source of brotherly love to this day. Britain leaned on and then monitored the elections that saw Rhodesia go from a productive, food exporting nation to the starving hell hole Mugabe calls Zimbabwe. Seems like everywhere you've been, somebody else has had to go, to keep wiping up the crap that spills out of your kid's diaper. Somalia, well...

At the end of WW II, the spread of communism from the Soviet Union and Red China was taken very seriously and very much feared. The Domino Theory, if one small country falls to communism, each small country next to it will topple also, was a major concern. This may seem silly to you now, but it wasn't then. The possibility of the USSR starting an unprovoked war was a question of when, not if. You're talking about countries that built walls to keep their people in and shot them if they tried to escape. The only country big and strong enough to arm for the cold war to safeguard Europe and fight the brush wars to protect against the domino theory was the USA. So we did. When the USSR blockaded Berlin to starve a concession from them, the US Air Force and the RAF began an incredible airlift of supplies to Berlin that finally broke the Soviet blockade.

I really can't think of any meddling the USA has done since the end of WWII that was done for the sole and exclusive good of the USA. We get nothing out of aiding Israel. We get nothing out of our emergency aid except to be spit on again once they are feeling better. We didn't get a discount on oil when the Saudis asked us to come in and protect them from Saddam and Iraq. When Britain went to get the Falklands back we gave logistic and intelligence support. If you ever get a chance to see unclassified cold war plans for a Soviet invasion of Europe during the cold war, you might be amazed to see how much effort, equipment, manpower, money, food, fuel, and defensive weapontry was earmarked to save the UK. Bunches.

We have done a lot for the world, many times when others couldn't or wouldn't. We have done a hell of a lot for Britain. The USA and Britain have done much together. Has the USA always done the right thing? No, but that's through the benefit of hindsight. I can't think of anything anybody can do, that will please everybody all the time. The more people look to you for a solution, the more often that will happen.

Just once, I'd like to see one of you say "I appreciate what you've done for us and maybe some of that is the reason I'm even here, but I sure wish you'd have done ( your cause here ) differently.

Mr. Spackman, should you ever show up at my door freezing, tired, and hungry, I'll invite you in, set you by the fire, feed you supper until you're full and let you sleep on the sofa. But when you wake up, you're leaving.

[steve_spackman]

We have done a lot for the world, many times when others couldn't or wouldn't. We have done a hell of a lot for Britain. The USA and Britain have done much together. Has the USA always done the right thing? No, but that's through the benefit of hindsight. I can't think of anything anybody can do, that will please everybody all the time. The more people look to you for a solution, the more often that will happen.

Just once, I'd like to see one of you say "I appreciate what you've done for us and maybe some of that is the reason I'm even here, but I sure wish you'd have done ( your cause here ) differently.

Well of course the US has done alot of good in this world...who hasnt in some sense or another?

Just because i dont agree with alot of things doesnt mean i hate the country...far from it actually. As i dont agree with alot of things my own country does, does that make me hate England??

I spend alot of time in the US as i have family there. I have met ALOT of great people through my travels and enjoy the culture

Its my views politically that you dont agree with..thats fine. My political views are different from my views on the actual people and the actual country....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well of course the US has done alot of good in this world...who hasnt in some sense or another?

Just because i dont agree with alot of things doesnt mean i hate the country...far from it actually. As i dont agree with alot of things my own country does, does that make me hate England??

I spend alot of time in the US as i have family there. I have met ALOT of great people through my travels and enjoy the culture

Its my views politically that you dont agree with..thats fine. My political views are different from my views on the actual people and the actual country....

Steve, you doth protest too much. The point is I know you are a good guy outside of the forums, and often in it. We agree on nothing politically apparently but I get that. What I was pointing out is you were condeming the USA as if they were just the problem, and if you read Fiero's very accurate history of events, the British Empire has a LOT more blood on its hands, and the sad part is, It wasn't even the most egregious violator. The French and Spanish had even worse colonies. At least the British Empire's possessions were given a stable system of government and some form of competance in the wake of their leaving.

What people in their criticism of the US have to acknowledge is for the amount of power the US has posessesd, it has actually done the LEAST amount of imperial conquest, and has only really gotten invovled outside when dragged into it until Iraq came along.

Even with Iraq, most of the Arab nations leaders had no problem with the Iraq war. The people protested only because there are many in the Islamic world who resent anyone coming who isn't Muslim to fix what the Muslim world WONT fix. The USA probably should have stayed away...but i do know that American Isolationsism led to two World War's dragging them right back in to tip the balance of power. It is the most benign of the three superpowers on the planet (Russia still has its fangs, and China is......well China) and the only one that takes the heat for what it does...and doens't do.

On here, it gets slagged, bashed, criticized and malinged, and while I am not an American, I take offense to some of it. I can tell you guys, I live beside the elephant, if he was dangerous, I would let you know. HE can be annoying...but we are glad to have him, and 90% of Canadians when pressed will tell you the same...

[Eki]

What people in their criticism of the US have to acknowledge is for the amount of power the US has posessesd, it has actually done the LEAST amount of imperial conquest, and has only really gotten invovled outside when dragged into it until Iraq came along.

What dragged them into Korea and Vietnam?

[steve_spackman]

Steve, you doth protest too much. The point is I know you are a good guy outside of the forums, and often in it. We agree on nothing politically apparently but I get that. What I was pointing out is you were condeming the USA as if they were just the problem, and if you read Fiero's very accurate history of events, the British Empire has a LOT more blood on its hands, and the sad part is, It wasn't even the most egregious violator. The French and Spanish had even worse colonies. At least the British Empire's possessions were given a stable system of government and some form of competance in the wake of their leaving.

What people in their criticism of the US have to acknowledge is for the amount of power the US has posessesd, it has actually done the LEAST amount of imperial conquest, and has only really gotten invovled outside when dragged into it until Iraq came along.

Even with Iraq, most of the Arab nations leaders had no problem with the Iraq war. The people protested only because there are many in the Islamic world who resent anyone coming who isn't Muslim to fix what the Muslim world WONT fix. The USA probably should have stayed away...but i do know that American Isolationsism led to two World War's dragging them right back in to tip the balance of power. It is the most benign of the three superpowers on the planet (Russia still has its fangs, and China is......well China) and the only one that takes the heat for what it does...and doens't do.

On here, it gets slagged, bashed, criticized and malinged, and while I am not an American, I take offense to some of it. I can tell you guys, I live beside the elephant, if he was dangerous, I would let you know. HE can be annoying...but we are glad to have him, and 90% of Canadians when pressed will tell you the same...

Oh yes i agree that our Empire was made with the spilling of blood..and lots of it too..

My political views may not be the same with others, but doesnt mean i HATE....

[Hondo]

What dragged them into Korea and Vietnam?

Dumb as it may sound now, stopping the spread of communism and assisting people that wanted a democratic form of government. I believe Korea was the first UN action too. I know the Brits were involved in Korea and the Turks also. Australia was in Vietnam along with a few others.

If I remember correctly, the actual triggers were ceasefire violations on the part of the communists.

We know now that Ho Chi Min only wanted a united Vietnam again. He wasn't a communist per se but was willing to buddy up to whoever aided his cause. In addition, as we know now, once he had the country united again he was going to be no one's lap dog, as China and the USSR both found out.

[Eki]

Dumb as it may sound now, stopping the spread of communism
Still it was far away, it's not like the communists were knocking on the US door.


We know now that Ho Chi Min only wanted a united Vietnam again. He wasn't a communist per se but was willing to buddy up to whoever aided his cause. In addition, as we know now, once he had the country united again he was going to be no one's lap dog, as China and the USSR both found out.
So was Tito in Yugoslavia, and I think Castro would have been the same way if the US had only given him a chance.

[Easy Drifter]

Eki you should leave Korea alone. You sound more and more like a fool.
What do you not get. North Korea invaded!
South Korea, a democratic country needed help.
The United Nations responded not the United States.
Yes the US responded. So did the UK, Turkey, Canada, New Zealand and Australia. Altogether about 20 countries were involved on the UN side including Norway and Sweden.
Noticeably absent was Finland.

[Hondo]

Still it was far away, it's not like the communists were knocking on the US door.

It was a far different time Eki. Distance had nothing to do with it.


So was Tito in Yugoslavia, and I think Castro would have been the same way if the US had only given him a chance.

I don't know that much about Tito so I'll defer on that. The CIA and American organized crime both gave support to Castro which he took and once in power, turned on them. Knowing he now had a powerful enemy, he got a powerful friend, the USSR. Doing the buddy-up with the USSR is probably the biggest reason he succeeded because they provided the financing and other things he needed to get settled in. Castro later paid their debt to the USSR by sending Cuban troops to Angola.

[Eki]

Eki you should leave Korea alone. You sound more and more like a fool.
What do you not get. North Korea invaded!
South Korea, a democratic country needed help.

It was a democratic country mainly because it fell into the hands of the US after WW2 and the US made it democratic and tried to turn the Koreans into American image. I doubt it was democratic before WW2 and the Japanese occupation. Yet there was a military rule for awhile, so you can suspect the transition into democracy wasn't necessarily voluntary but a forced one like in Iraq and Afghanistan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korea


After liberation and occupation by Soviet and U.S. forces at the end of World War II, the nation was divided into North and South Korea. The latter was established in 1948 as a democracy. A war between the two Koreas ended in an uneasy cease-fire. After the war and a period of military rule, the South Korean economy grew significantly and the country was transformed into a major economy[10] and a full democracy.

[Easy Drifter]

So what. It was a democratic country invaded by communist North Korea.
Why it was democratic doesn't have diddley squat to do with anything.
The same silly statements could be made about West Germany, Italy, Austria and Japan.
Sometimes I think you must be related to Wade91 as well as being George Bush's half brother.

[Eki]

So what. It was a democratic country invaded by communist North Korea.
Why it was democratic doesn't have diddley squat to do with anything.
The same silly statements could be made about West Germany, Italy, Austria and Japan.
Sometimes I think you must be related to Wade91 as well as being George Bush's half brother.
Austria and Japan were democratic, as far as I know, before the war. So was Germany until Hitler changed it.

[Hondo]

Germany, once Hitler came into power, and the methods of the Nazi Party, especially in regards to gaining allies and real estate is a pretty good example of what the post WW II world expected from the USSR and later, Red China. I supposed you could say South Korea was forced into democracy but judging by the numbers of them that fled south from the North's invasion they seemed to prefer democracy. In addition, South Korea has never had to erect barbed wire and shoot their own citizens to keep them from fleeing the country.

Come to think of it, I can't think of any form of government beyond the communism, marxism kind of thing that has had to resort to force of arms to keep it's population from running away.

[Easy Drifter]

And the people of East Germany, Poland, Hungary, etc. just adored being under a communist dictatorship.
I don't think I have ever seen you take such a silly position before and that is saying something!

[Eki]

And the people of East Germany, Poland, Hungary, etc. just adored being under a communist dictatorship.

Yes, East Germany would probably had been better off under the Nazis. And Hungary under Imrédy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary


In 1932 Horthy appointed a new prime-minister, Gyula Gömbös, that changed the course of Hungarian policy towards closer cooperation with Germany. Gömbös signed a trade agreement with Germany that drew Hungary's economy out of depression but made Hungary dependent on the German economy for both raw materials and markets. Adolf Hitler appealed to Hungarian desires for territorial revisionism, while extreme right wing organizations, like the Arrow Cross party, increasingly embraced Nazi policies, including those related to Jews. The government passed the First Jewish Law in 1938. The law established a quote system to limit Jewish involvement in the Hungarian economy.
Imrédy's attempts to improve Hungary's diplomatic relations with the United Kingdom initially made him very unpopular with Germany and Italy. In light of Germany's Anschluss with Austria in March, he realized that he could not afford to alienate Germany and Italy for long; in the autumn of 1938 his foreign policy became very much pro-German and pro-Italian.[59] Intent on amassing a base of power in Hungarian right wing politics, Imrédy began to suppress political rivals, so the increasingly influential Arrow Cross Party was harassed, and eventually banned by Imrédy's administration. As Imrédy drifted further to the right, he proposed that the government be reorganized along totalitarian lines and drafted a harsher Second Jewish Law. The Parliament under the new government of Pál Teleki approved the Second Jewish Law in 1939, which greatly restricted Jewish involvement in the economy, culture, and society and, significantly, defined Jews by race instead of religion. This definition altered the status of those who had formerly converted from Judaism to Christianity.

[Easy Drifter]

And so Eki goes off on yet another totally irrelevant angle that has nothing to do with the Koreas even going back to pre WW2 since his position on the defence of Democratic South Korea is untenable.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Still it was far away, it's not like the communists were knocking on the US door.


So was Tito in Yugoslavia, and I think Castro would have been the same way if the US had only given him a chance.

Tito wasn't much of a Communist. No one was forced to live in Yugoslavia and while the state ran a lot, there was a lot of capitalism there too. He also didn't play along with the USSR and their aims, and took a country with many factions and did his own thing. HE wasn't a saint, but he wasn't anti Capitalist or an threat to the west.

Castro? Good lord EKi, he is your hero. He had no interest in befriending the US. THe man didn't allow any dissent, didn't want anyone but a Castro in power, and basically had people willing to die on pieces of driftwood in shark infested waters to get away from his paradise. You want to say something more retarded? Volunteer to live in Cuba as a Cuban does....

Castro had NO intention of getting along with the US. If he did, there was ample opportunity over the years....and one has to only notice how any overtures from the US are often rebuffed. Read 1984 Eki, and learn how Big Brother always has to have a bogey man to keep the population united against someone else other than Big Brother. Castro is Big Brother and the USA has always been his Bogeyman, and you see Chavez playing to the same orchestra in Venezuela.

[Eki]

s....

Castro had NO intention of getting along with the US. .

That's not what I've heard:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro#Castro_consolidates_power


Between April 15 and April 26, Castro and a delegation of industrial and international representatives visited the U.S. as guests of the Press Club. Castro hired one of the best public relations firms in the United States for a charm offensive visit by Castro and his recently initiated government. Castro answered impertinent questions jokingly and ate hot dogs and hamburgers. His rumpled fatigues and scruffy beard cut a popular figure easily promoted as an authentic hero.[56] He was refused a meeting with President Eisenhower. After his visit to the United States, he would go on to join forces with the Soviet leader, Nikita Khrushchev.[45]

Eisenhower had a window of opportunity but he wasted it. Khrushchev used it.

[Easy Drifter]

Very nice selective picking. Too bad you didn't post more of the entry about the suppression of free speech and freedom of the people. Or the seizure of ppty. without compensation and the interference by armed force (invasion) in Africa.

[Mark in Oshawa]

That's not what I've heard:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro#Castro_consolidates_power



Eisenhower had a window of opportunity but he wasted it. Khrushchev used it.
Eki do you SERIOUSLY believe if Eisenhower had met with him he would have had elections and freedom for Cubans to come and go? I was born on a day Eki, not yesterday.

There was ample evidence of what Castro was if you choose to dig to other places besides one part of Wikipedia. No serious historian with both oars in the water would EVER consider Castro a hero bent on democracy and then was so miffed, why he turned the country into a prison camp.

I don't know why bother, you don't want to see the truth, you just want to argue nonsense some days.

[anthonyvop]

That's not what I've heard:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro#Castro_consolidates_power



Eisenhower had a window of opportunity but he wasted it. Khrushchev used it.

Castro was a Marxist from his days in Jesuit High School.

[Eki]

Eki do you SERIOUSLY believe if Eisenhower had met with him he would have had elections and freedom for Cubans to come and go?
No, but he would have cooperated with the US instead of the Soviet Union. The US have cooperated with right wing military juntas too, so obviously democracy and freedom have not been on top of their list. They also cooperated with Stalin until 1945 and with Saddam until 1989.

By the way, the freedom to emigrate is overrated if there is no freedom to immigrate and no place to go. For example, Mexicans have the right to emigrate, but aren't there still illegal Mexican immigrants in the US.

[Mark in Oshawa]

No, but he would have cooperated with the US instead of the Soviet Union. The US have cooperated with right wing military juntas too, so obviously democracy and freedom have not been on top of their list. They also cooperated with Stalin until 1945 and with Saddam until 1989.

By the way, the freedom to emigrate is overrated if there is no freedom to immigrate and no place to go. For example, Mexicans have the right to emigrate, but aren't there still illegal Mexican immigrants in the US.

The US Co-operated with the Junta's because they were seen as better alternatives to the Communists, which if you remember your history of the 50's ( and your Korea comments indicated you do not ) THAT was the big fear. Didn't say the US liked them, but as you keep pointing out...in your shrill little comments "the US shouldn't poke their nose into how other nations are run"...and they didn't.

They co-operated with Stalin because many on the left in the US were spending most of the 30's making excuses for his excesses and he was less a threat than Nazism. As for Saddam, again, less a problem in the 80's than the Iranians....
AS for your assertion the freedom to emigrate is overated if there is no place to go? Answer me this: Why would people putting boats to sea In Haiti to leave (being too poor to leave any other way) to sneak into another country not just scoot the 50 odd miles West to Cuba? No...they take their boats and whatever and go past the Turks and Caico's and Bahamas up to Florida? Gee....That US is such a NASTY place..why would they all go there eh?

The freedom to come and go means your nation isn't a prison camp!!! Even the Chicom's allow their people to come and go to an extent. Cuba? No...the old USSR? No.... Freedom isn't important to you because people died for it and you don't appreciate it. I can bet if the President of Finland told you and others there was no choice but to be stuck in Finland, and then ran the economy right into the toilet while paying you next to nothing, you might grasp the concept.

[Easy Drifter]

Cooperated with Stalin yes.
But there was a little something called WW2 going on.
Are you suggesting Eki that the US should have sided with Hitler?
It sure sounds like it.
What has Mexico got to do with anything?
But they can leave if they want to. I am sure Finland would welcome a couple of million with open arms.
The US like all free countries has restrictions on the number of immigrants allowed each year. But desparate people from Cuba and Mexico want into that terrible country the United States and funnily enough into the frozen north Canada.

Have you seen the documentary "The Soviet Story"?

[Eki]

Answer me this: Why would people putting boats to sea In Haiti to leave (being too poor to leave any other way) to sneak into another country not just scoot the 50 odd miles West to Cuba? No...they take their boats and whatever and go past the Turks and Caico's and Bahamas up to Florida? Gee....That US is such a NASTY place..why would they all go there eh?

Answer me this: Are they welcomed in Florida?

Finland returned those who illegally came from the Soviet Union and we still return those who illegally come from Russia, although they now have the freedom to leave Russia. It's sad, I know, but we can't afford to take everyone who wants to leave Russia.

[Hondo]

Answer me this: Are they welcomed in Florida?

Finland returned those who illegally came from the Soviet Union and we still return those who illegally come from Russia, although they now have the freedom to leave Russia. It's sad, I know, but we can't afford to take everyone who wants to leave Russia.

For the most part those that have family here and want to become good, productive citizens are welcome here. Some of it is almost like a game. If they can make it to shore, they can stay by claiming asylum. If the Coast Guard stops the boat near the beach and everybody dives overboard and swims for the beach, those that make it to where they can stand with their heads above water win. Those that are plucked from the water still swimming lose and go back.

The stories about George Bush modifying the Coast Guard boats to release up to 12 hungery sharks below the waterline are not true.

Why would anyone want to leave Russia?

[Eki]

Why would anyone want to leave Russia?
I just read on a tabloid about an 81 year old Russian grandmother who's been living with her daughter for two years in Finland. The daughter has been living in Finland for almost 20 years and is married to a Finn. Now the Finnish authorities want to send the granny back to Russia for fear they'll have to pay for her care here in Finland. Apparently the granny doesn't have any relatives in Russia who could take care of her and the Russian care for the elderly isn't up at the same level it is in Finland. The Finnish son in law has returned his military passport in protest saying that if he's not capable of defending his family, he's not capable of defending his country.

Then there was a Russian military conscript who had escaped his unit near the Finnish border to Finland with an assault rifle. He ended up shooting himself when the Finns tried to capture him.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Answer me this: Are they welcomed in Florida?

Finland returned those who illegally came from the Soviet Union and we still return those who illegally come from Russia, although they now have the freedom to leave Russia. It's sad, I know, but we can't afford to take everyone who wants to leave Russia.

Most Americans I have met understand the USA is the destination for a lot of oppressed people and poor from the less well off or badly run nations of the earth. Legitimate asylum, or economic refugee's who are absorbed legally are not the ones people in the USA get upset about. The Millions who just come in and start working under the table ARE.

Of course, when stern people decide building a fence or putting more Border Patrol on the Mexican border is in order, the trendy chattering classes think it is horrible...but the fact is, a nation which does not control its borders is defined by many historical definations as not being sovereign. I wouldn't say the USA is THAT, but the tremendous strain on the social welfare system of the US is just one of the reasons the recession has kicked the crap out of the economy and one of the reasons why the reforms suggested for healthcare were so hotly contested.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I just read on a tabloid about an 81 year old Russian grandmother who's been living with her daughter for two years in Finland. The daughter has been living in Finland for almost 20 years and is married to a Finn. Now the Finnish authorities want to send the granny back to Russia for fear they'll have to pay for her care here in Finland. Apparently the granny doesn't have any relatives in Russia who could take care of her and the Russian care for the elderly isn't up at the same level it is in Finland. The Finnish son in law has returned his military passport in protest saying that if he's not capable of defending his family, he's not capable of defending his country.

Then there was a Russian military conscript who had escaped his unit near the Finnish border to Finland with an assault rifle. He ended up shooting himself when the Finns tried to capture him.

Sounds familiar. Every once in a while we will read the story of someone who's visa has run out who has kids here in Canada, or someone who overstayed a VISA who seems like a sympathetic character is on the deportation list to a country that isn't very nice. We hear of this sort of thing all the time. What you describe Eki wouldn't happen here...so I guess Canada is MORE empthatic than Finland? Granny would be exempt here because the daughter would have gotten sponsorship for Granny.

[Eki]

I guess Canada is MORE empthatic than Finland?
You are probably cleaner and more polite too.

[Easy Drifter]

When I see the litter beside our roads, especially when the snow melts I doubt cleaner!
More polite, no idea.
Present company excluded. :p

[Eki]

The freedom to come and go means your nation isn't a prison camp!!! Even the Chicom's allow their people to come and go to an extent.
I'm watching a documentary about China. It mentioned how Carter demanded from Deng Xiaoping that certain amount of Chinese should be allowed to leave China before the US can cooperate with China. Den Xiaoping answered, "Sure Chinese people can leave. How many do you want 40 million, 50 million?"

[Mark in Oshawa]

I'm watching a documentary about China. It mentioned how Carter demanded from Deng Xiaoping that certain amount of Chinese should be allowed to leave China before the US can cooperate with China. Den Xiaoping answered, "Sure Chinese people can leave. How many do you want 40 million, 50 million?"

Eki...things like that is why Jimmy Carter is a TOOL....

Dealing with the PRC is pretty difficult, but you never help your cause by demanding things from them like that....

[Mark in Oshawa]

You are probably cleaner and more polite too.

I was razzing you....we probably are NOT as clean, but we are famous for being polite. Except starting Friday...then the gloves are off....we were polite in Montreal in 76, and Calgary in 88, but this time we want the gold and we want it early and often!!!

[Eki]

I was razzing you....we probably are NOT as clean,
Come on, Canadians are clean. They said so in "Canadian Bacon". They invaded Canada and when they saw Toronto, one of them said in awe "It's almost like Albany, only cleaner".

[Hondo]

************************************************** ******** I'm starting to appreciate President Ahmadinejad.

The little guy dresses like a middle-aged swinger trying to pick up young women in bars but he is the elected president of a sovereign nation.

He wants to develop nuclear power for his country and is doing so.
He wants to enrich his own uranium fuel and is doing so, as is his nation's right to as such.
He wants and is developing a space program.
He has seen the benefits and usefulness of drone aircraft and is now developing his own drones.
The fact that he expresses some rather odious views about other nations and races is his business as long as they remain oratory and do not become overt action on his part.
That the outside world may not approve of his criminal justice system doesn't bother him at all. If his citizens are so strongly opposed to it, let the revolution begin! After all, that's how Ahmadinejad's party got into power by replacing the Shah.

And what is he up against? Putin and Russia, who have offered to enrich the fuel for Iran and had their offer declined. You can bet Putin has made it clear to Ahmadinejad what will happen if even a whiff of weapons grade dust, traceable to Iran, ends up in Russia. Other than that, Putin doesn't care. China is a major business partner and won't do anything.
That leaves a small pack of western nations, most of whom have nukes, barking and yipping like the self-neutered dogs they are for "sanctions". The USA even has the complete lack of sense to send a woman (SoS Hillary Clinton) to an Islamic country to dictate terms to it. Really bad move there.

So there you have him, doing things he has the right to do within his country, regardless of who agrees with him and who does not. He is not hiding in a cave. He stands in the light of day telling the world they can just suck 'Ol Buck.

I wonder if his Feb 12th surprise is final proof, open to the world proof, that Obama is not legally qualified to be president of the USA. That would be a treat!

[Hondo]

If I were Argentina, I'd be considering another run at the Falklands right about now.

[Mark in Oshawa]

If I were Argentina, I'd be considering another run at the Falklands right about now.

Oh boy...lol...that would be rich. You are right tho...because I doubt Brown nor Cameron has half the cojones that Thatcher had.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Come on, Canadians are clean. They said so in "Canadian Bacon". They invaded Canada and when they saw Toronto, one of them said in awe "It's almost like Albany, only cleaner".

I dunno Eki....you may have a point...but I am not always sure what it is...

[Hondo]

Oh boy...lol...that would be rich. You are right tho...because I doubt Brown nor Cameron has half the cojones that Thatcher had.

Even if they did, the people they represent don't.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

If I were Argentina, I'd be considering another run at the Falklands right about now.


Oh boy...lol...that would be rich. You are right tho...because I doubt Brown nor Cameron has half the cojones that Thatcher had.

Or it could help Brown's reputation if he managed a successful campaign against the Argentinians.

Argentinians Air Force has barely even recovered from the kick-in it got 28 years ago. Hasn't a load of oil been discovered around the Falklands?

[Hondo]

There is oil damn near everywhere. We aren't close to using it all up. Actually some scientists are saying the earth is constantly producing it and it is not strictly a product of dead biomass. They have found mucho oil below the biomass levels.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Or it could help Brown's reputation if he managed a successful campaign against the Argentinians.

Argentinians Air Force has barely even recovered from the kick-in it got 28 years ago. Hasn't a load of oil been discovered around the Falklands?


John, I doubt Brown would do it. Then again, I was shocked Blair tossed the UK's hat in the ring for Iraq, and hearing THAT is what made me initially support the war. If a moderate/left of center pol like Blair could go for it....well then there had to be something. Now many would argue otherwise, but in 2002 that was the reality.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

John, I doubt Brown would do it. Then again, I was shocked Blair tossed the UK's hat in the ring for Iraq, and hearing THAT is what made me initially support the war. If a moderate/left of center pol like Blair could go for it....well then there had to be something. Now many would argue otherwise, but in 2002 that was the reality.

Before 1982 barely any of the British public knew about the Falkland Islands. Now we look back at that campaign as a proud military victory which at the time the US Navy called 'a military impossibility'.

Sure, if Brown was in charge in 1982 he probably wouldn't have made the same risk that Thatcher did. But if the Falklands were invaded for a 2nd time (unlikely as they are better defended now) then any government would be under enormous pressure to launch a counter attack. If they didn't then the 200+ Britons who lost their lives in the war would have been for nothing.

Even if we don't think we should be in Afghanistan or shouldn't have gone to Iraq the British public will always support its military.

[Eki]

John, I doubt Brown would do it.
That sentence sounds like Brown, Jon Brow has multiple personality disorder. Brown and Jon Brow.

[Mark in Oshawa]

That sentence sounds like Brown, Jon Brow has multiple personality disorder. Brown and Jon Brow.

Jon is kind of a schizo? naah ...but I knew the difference...lol...

[Mark in Oshawa]

Before 1982 barely any of the British public knew about the Falkland Islands. Now we look back at that campaign as a proud military victory which at the time the US Navy called 'a military impossibility'.

Sure, if Brown was in charge in 1982 he probably wouldn't have made the same risk that Thatcher did. But if the Falklands were invaded for a 2nd time (unlikely as they are better defended now) then any government would be under enormous pressure to launch a counter attack. If they didn't then the 200+ Britons who lost their lives in the war would have been for nothing.

Even if we don't think we should be in Afghanistan or shouldn't have gone to Iraq the British public will always support its military.

The Falklands proved the British Lion still had teeth and claws...and was something that had to be done.

The British support their military, as does Canada ours, but in Afghanistan, both of us are there against some opposition at home. I suggest that the supporting of the troops is noble in theory, but if you want them home before they accomplish something then you are just telling them they failed....and that their sacrifices mean nothing also. It is delicate, because no one sane suggests Afghanistan will be a peaceful garden of eden now or a year from now, but I would like to see something concrete change there before the NATO troops pull out. The real issue is the gutless lack of participation on the part of the Germans, French and others who in theory back the operation, but wont put troops on the line to make the mission happen. The US, Dutch, UK and Canada have borne the brunt of the losses, most through IED's....not actual combat missions....and the people who want a better life there are waiting to see which side is more committed. THAT is the real issue with us being there. No one in the West has any patience for problems that are not easily fixed.