Motorsport Trivia

[D28]

Hulme 67, Lauda 84

Correct. !984 is interesting as Lauda never even qualified on the front row. He did prevail, but by the thinnest margin possible. He did score lots of poles, 24 in all, just not in 1984.

[52Paddy]

Easy, the late Princess Diana

Correct!

[D28]

Which driver scored 9 podiums, led 7 races, led the championship, without ever winning a WC Grand Prix.

[52Paddy]

Could it be Luigi Musso? He did win a shared GP in 1956 with Fangio though.

[D28]

Could it be Luigi Musso? He did win a shared GP in 1956 with Fangio though.

Not the one.

[D-Type]

Which driver scored 9 podiums, led 7 races, led the championship, without ever winning a WC Grand Prix.
It just has to be Chris Amon

[D28]

It just has to be Chris Amon

That is the obvious answer and also an incorrect one. Amon had even more podiums, but never lead the championship.

[52Paddy]

Eddie Cheever? He was in contention for the title the year he drove for Renault (82?).

[52Paddy]

I would imagine it was 82 because I think Keke only won one race that year anyway.

[D28]

I would imagine it was 82 because I think Keke only won one race that year anyway.

Not Eddie Cheever.

[52Paddy]

Hardly Brundle?

[52Paddy]

Just to clarify: do you mean that this driver NEVER scored a win in his entire career? Or, do you mean that he had not YET won a race by the time he had led the championship, scored 9 podiums and led 7 races?

[52Paddy]

If you don't count Nannini's 89 Japanese GP win (where Senna was DQ'd), he seems a likely candidate.....

[D28]

Just to clarify: do you mean that this driver NEVER scored a win in his entire career? Or, do you mean that he had not YET won a race by the time he had led the championship, scored 9 podiums and led 7 races?

He never managed a win. the 9 podiums are his lifetime record; he led 7 different races, and a one point the championship, not Nannini or Brundle.

[ShiftingGears]

He never managed a win. the 9 podiums are his lifetime record; he led 7 different races, and a one point the championship, not Nannini or Brundle.

Jean Behra

[52Paddy]

This is getting tough! Fagioli?

[wattoroos]

i agree with jean behra in 1956

[wattoroos]

which two drivers have had the most podiums without a race win

[Ranger]

which two drivers have had the most podiums without a race win

From memory, Nick Heidfeld and Stefan Johansson?

[wattoroos]

From memory, Nick Heidfeld and Stefan Johansson?
correcct!
i need to think of harder questions in the future

[D28]

Jean Behra

Behra is the one. In the 1956 season he scored a 2nd and 3rd in the opening two races, giving him the lead in the championship, the only non-winner ever to do so. Fangio won both races with shared drives, halving his points, so even with 2 fastest laps Behra was slightly ahead.
He was more unlucky then Chris Amon, as he lost everything at Avus in 1959.

[Ranger]

In all 61 seasons of the Formula 1 championship, only one year has seen every championship race in a season won by a constructors who also built their respective engines.

What was the year and who were the constuctors?

[wattoroos]

In all 61 seasons of the Formula 1 championship, only one year has seen every championship race in a season won by a constructors who also built their respective engines.

What was the year and who were the constuctors?

1973, Ford

[Ranger]

1973, Ford

Nope.

I'm looking for 'Constructor' being the team.

Maserati are an example of a constructor who also built their own engines.

[AndyL]

In all 61 seasons of the Formula 1 championship, only one year has seen every championship race in a season won by a constructors who also built their respective engines.

What was the year and who were the constuctors?

Tricky! I'm guessing we're looking at the 50s or 60s, because it would have to be a year when neither McLaren, Williams or Lotus won a race.

[52Paddy]

Tricky! I'm guessing we're looking at the 50s or 60s, because it would have to be a year when neither McLaren, Williams or Lotus won a race.

2006: Ferrari, Renault and Honda ;)

[AndyL]

2006: Ferrari, Renault and Honda ;)

Of course :)

[Ranger]

2006: Ferrari, Renault and Honda ;)

:up: Correct!

Would have happened numeous times in the 50's, but for the Indy 500 being a championship round.

[52Paddy]

Q. What was the 'Comprex' system briefly tried on the 1981 Ferrari 126CK?

[D-Type]

A mechanically driven pressure wave supercharger made by Brown Boveri

[D28]

This World Champion had sportscar drives with Aston-Martin (a shared win), as well as several races for Matra-Simca. Who is he?

[ShiftingGears]

Behra is the one. In the 1956 season he scored a 2nd and 3rd in the opening two races, giving him the lead in the championship, the only non-winner ever to do so. Fangio won both races with shared drives, halving his points, so even with 2 fastest laps Behra was slightly ahead.
He was more unlucky then Chris Amon, as he lost everything at Avus in 1959.

Indeed, Amon often says his greatest achievement was staying alive.

I would've loved to hear Behra's reasoning for punching the Ferrari team manager in the face in France 1959, leading to his sacking :laugh:

[52Paddy]

A mechanically driven pressure wave supercharger made by Brown Boveri

Correct :up:

[52Paddy]

This World Champion had sportscar drives with Aston-Martin (a shared win), as well as several races for Matra-Simca. Who is he?

I'd imagine it must be someone from the late 60s/early 70s. I'll guess Jackie Stewart?

[D28]

I'd imagine it must be someone from the late 60s/early 70s. I'll guess Jackie Stewart?

Not Stewart.

[D-Type]

This World Champion had sportscar drives with Aston-Martin (a shared win), as well as several races for Matra-Simca. Who is he?
The 1958 Nurburgring 1000km was won by an Aston Martin DBR1 driven by Stirling Moss and ... Jack Brabham

[D28]

The 1958 Nurburgring 1000km was won by an Aston Martin DBR1 driven by Stirling Moss and ... Jack Brabham

Correct. Jack says that Moss drove about 36 of 44 laps in Germany, but the win still counts. I also discovered that the Matra outings in 1970 resulted in a win at the Paris 1000 km. with Francois Cevert. It's intriguing that he would sign for sportscar races with Matra at the end of his career, but perhaps he just liked racing.

[D-Type]

Here's a nice easy one

My regular lottery numbers are 18, 21, 25, 33, 43, 49. Why?

[52Paddy]

They are all type numbers of successful Lotus cars.

Lotus 18: First Lotus to win a world championship race (entered by Rob Walker).

Lotus 21: First 'works' Lotus to win a world championship race.

Lotus 25: Gave Lotus their first drivers title (1963).

Lotus 33: Gave Lotus their second drivers title (1965)

Lotus 43: Only car to win with a H16 configuration

Lotus 49: Lots of different achievements. Suppose the highlight was bringing Hill to the 1968 drivers title and their third drivers championship.

[D-Type]

That's it - Lotus cars that won a GP

[52Paddy]

After 21 hopefuls had contacted Eddie Jordan offering their services for the 1996 season, how long did it take eventual driver, Martin Brundle, to agree terms for the drive?

[wattoroos]

After 21 hopefuls had contacted Eddie Jordan offering their services for the 1996 season, how long did it take eventual driver, Martin Brundle, to agree terms for the drive?
i have no idea but ill say 1 minute

[52Paddy]

i have no idea but ill say 1 minute

Not that short but you're thinking on the correct side of the time scale (it is in minutes, and only a few).

[52Paddy]

15 minutes it was :) Someone else feel free to ask away.

[D28]

In this GP the winner took the checker and promptly crashed his car. The race is noteworthy for 2 other reasons. Details anyone?

[D-Type]

Vittorio Brambilla in a March won the 1975 Austrian GP
Hs only GP win
The race was shortened because of the rain and half points were awarded
Only GP win by an orange car ;)

[D28]

Vittorio Brambilla in a March won the 1975 Austrian GP
Hs only GP win
The race was shortened because of the rain and half points were awarded
Only GP win by an orange car ;)

This is all correct. The meeting is noted for one other happening.

[Bruce D]

It was the meeting where Mark Donohue was killed in practice, if I'm not mistaken.

[D28]

It was the meeting where Mark Donohue was killed in practice, if I'm not mistaken.

That is correct and the last part of the answer I was looking for.

[D28]

Who was the first F1 driver to match his father's feat, winning a major Grand Prix event.

[Rollo]

I'll hazard a guess and say Alberto Ascari.

[D28]

I'll hazard a guess and say Alberto Ascari.

Correct. Antonio Ascari won the 1924 Italian Grand Prix. Alberto won many
WC Grand Prix starting with Germany 1951. He won the same race as his father (Italian Grand Prix) in 1951.
The Hills, Graham and Damon also won the Italian GP in 1962 and 1994.

Villeneuves, Gilles and Jacques won the Spanish GP in 1981 and 1997.
I think that completes the list of father/son winners for now.

[Rollo]

"Above all, it is evident that racing is rapidly being reduced to a business. The firm with the most money makes the most elaborate arrangements, and places the drivers of its cars at a corresponding advantage...... there can be no question that the general result of making the matter of driving a question of money is bad for the sport, and will no doubt result, as a like principle has resulted in other sports, in killing public interest."

This was a pretty damning comment about commercialism invading motorsport.

What year was this said?

[52Paddy]

1986?

[AndyL]

I'd guess more like 1936!

[D-Type]

"Above all, it is evident that racing is rapidly being reduced to a business. The firm with the most money makes the most elaborate arrangements, and places the drivers of its cars at a corresponding advantage...... there can be no question that the general result of making the matter of driving a question of money is bad for the sport, and will no doubt result, as a like principle has resulted in other sports, in killing public interest."

This was a pretty damning comment about commercialism invading motorsport.

What year was this said?
Could it be even earlier? Say 1908?

[Rollo]

D-Type is the closest so far.

[D28]

Charles Jarrott made these observations in 1906.

[Rollo]

It was indeed Charles Jarrott in 1906. And yes 52Paddy, it could have been 1986, or heck even 2010.

D28 have a roll.

[Mintexmemory]

As D28 is hibernating I thought I'd wish you all a HNY and throw one into the ring to get the 2011 ball rolling
Which World Championship GP stat score currently stands at UK 21 - Rest of the World 32.5

[Bruce D]

My original thought was number of constructors titles won but then I realised that the UK figure would be much higher as the only non-UK champions would have been Ferrari and Renault. Plus that ".5" bit throws me a lot. Generally the only thing that gets a .5 is points, but you make it sound like its a "all-time" stat. Tricky one.

[D-Type]

The "0.5" could be race wins. Is it the number of wins in a driver's "home" GP?

[52Paddy]

Could the 0.5 be half points for shared drives?

[Bruce D]

Hehe, it's like if you can work out what the 0.5 stands for it'll all fall into place.

[Mintexmemory]

D-Type has it correct. There are only 2 occasions when a shared win involved a home winner - Moss / Brooks (counts as 1 for UK) Musso / Fangio (counts a 0.5 for Argentina). Home advantage seems to be overwhelming as a total for Brits, even as a %age. 21/61 = 34.4% whereas Brasil's 9/39 = 23% is the nearest both in total and %. France (8) and Schumachers (5) being some way behind

[Bruce D]

Next question?

[Rollo]

What is the smallest capacity individual cylinder that has ever appeared in an F1 car?

[Bruce D]

I'll take a stab and say the BRM V8 of the 62-65 season, 1500cc meaning that each cylinder would have had about 187.5cc each.

Hold on, scrap that! The BRM V16 of the 50-52 era. Must have had 93.75cc per cylinder.

[Rollo]

Hold on, scrap that! The BRM V16 of the 50-52 era. Must have had 93.75cc per cylinder.

I think we have a winner!

The BRM Type 15 was indeed a V16 at only 1496cc, making each cylinder only 93.5cc a piece. Raymond Mays said at the time that "the valves in the car don't open and close but merely wobble"

[Bruce D]

Cool beans, I got one! :D

Ok, this should be an easy one - what first appeared at the 1973 Canadian GP and what happened next?

[Rollo]

Ok, this should be an easy one - what first appeared at the 1973 Canadian GP and what happened next?

Jody Scheckter drove a car numbered 0.

What happened next was that he did his rag at McLaren and signed a contracy with Tyrell to replace Jackie Stewart.

[Ranger]

Cool beans, I got one! :D

Ok, this should be an easy one - what first appeared at the 1973 Canadian GP and what happened next?

Safety Car, and I'd guess it may have been a bit of a shambles?

[DazzlaF1]

Easy, the first appearance of the safety car, and what happened was the officials lost control of the lap charts as a result putting Howden Ganley in the lead instead of the actual leader Peter Revson

[BruceD]

Hi guys, sorry for taking so long to respond, since the forum change I haven't been able to log on but thanks to Mark in the admin team I'm back. Mallen and DazzlaF1 have it right.

[D28]

In honour of Robbie Burns, here's a simple Scottish question. List the toal wins and the breakdown, for all Scottish drivers in F1, GP races.

[Rollo]

I think only four Scots have won Grands Prix.

Jim Clark - some
Jackie Stewart - some
David Coulthard - some
Innes Ireland - USGP 1961.

I know potted highlights, but unless there's someone who has wiki magic then I don't know if there's anyone who could simply name all the GPs they won.

[Bruce D]

I think Rollo has the right names, just the figures missing.

Jim Clark - 25
Jackie Stewart - 27
David Coulthard - 13
Innes Ireland - 1

Total - 66

If I'm right I'll give the point to Rollo cos he got the list right first.

[SGWilko]

I think Rollo has the right names, just the figures missing.

You mean he's playing all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order, Mr Preview..... :laugh:

[D28]

This is correct. Am impressive list which includes 5 WDC, not bad for a small country. Happy Burns Day.

[D28]

I think Rollo has the right names, just the figures missing.

Jim Clark - 25
Jackie Stewart - 27
David Coulthard - 13
Innes Ireland - 1

Total - 66

If I'm right I'll give the point to Rollo cos he got the list right first.

This is correct. It includes 5 WDC, not bad for a small country. Happy Burns Day.

[Rollo]

If I'm right I'll give the point to Rollo cos he got the list right first.

Ok then. This question relates to profanity...

Although the car wasn't exactly named after a rude word, its name could be described as a minced oath or a pseudo-profanity. What was this rude car called?

[Don Capps]

In honour of Robbie Burns, here's a simple Scottish question. List the toal [sic] wins and the breakdown, for all Scottish drivers in F1, GP races.

In addition to those named -- Ireland, Clark, Stewart, Coulthard -- there is another Scot who won in formula one: Archie Scott-Brown, who won the Formula 1 race organized by the B.R.S.C.C. (British Racing & Sports Car Club) at Brands Hatch on 14 October 1956. Scott-Brown drove a Connaught B Type ('B7') entered by Connaught Engineering. True, it was not much of an event, Autosport making reference to the event as the "Brand Hatch Petit Prix." (Paul Sheldon w/ Duncan Rabagliati, A Record of Grand Prix and Voiturette Racing, Volume 6 1954-1959, St. Lenonard's Press, 1987, p. 128). There is also a report on the race in Motor Sport (December 1956, p. 734). However, given that the question asked for Scots who won "F1" races, this race meets that criteria and Scott-Brown should be noted as formula one-winning Scot. Indeed, Scott-Brown was actually the first Scot to win in F1, not Ireland.

Yes, it was assumed that the events were to include those events in the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs (the World Championship for Drivers) which began in 1950 and ended with the 1980 season and those events within the current "FIA Formula 1 World Championship" which began with the 1981 season. Therefore, the only Scot to win a "Formula 1 World Championship" event is actually Coulthard, the others being won under the former championship which was a different one from the current one.

Sorry for the late posting, but I only happened to see this a few moments ago.

[Rollo]

Yes, it was assumed that the events were to include those events in the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs (the World Championship for Drivers) which began in 1950 and ended with the 1980 season and those events within the current "FIA Formula 1 World Championship" which began with the 1981 season. Therefore, the only Scot to win a "Formula 1 World Championship" event is actually Coulthard, the others being won under the former championship which was a different one from the current one.


Two comments:
1. FISA had actual control of the sport until 1992. In 1993 the FIA was restructed, and direct control of the sport proper was assumed.
http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/The_FIA/2005/October/281005-01.html
Mr Mosley was first elected President of FISA (Federation Internationale du Sport Automobile), the FIA's then sport division, in 1991 and re-elected in 1992. In 1993, after FISA was merged with the main body of the FIA, Mr Mosley was elected President of the FIA for the first time. He was re-elected in 1997, 2001 and again today.

2. The "FIA Formula 1 World Championship" began in 1950.
http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr001.html
The first FIA Formula 1 World Championship began at Silverstone on a Saturday in the spring of 1950.
If the FIA thinks that the Formula 1 World Championship began in 1950 then that's good enough for me. They after all the people who run and sanction the sport.

[52Paddy]

Ok then. This question relates to profanity...

Although the car wasn't exactly named after a rude word, its name could be described as a minced oath or a pseudo-profanity. What was this rude car called?

The Durex Surtees TS19?

[Don Capps]

Two comments:
1. FISA had actual control of the sport until 1992. In 1993 the FIA was restructed, and direct control of the sport proper was assumed.
http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/The_FIA/2005/October/281005-01.html
Mr Mosley was first elected President of FISA (Federation Internationale du Sport Automobile), the FIA's then sport division, in 1991 and re-elected in 1992. In 1993, after FISA was merged with the main body of the FIA, Mr Mosley was elected President of the FIA for the first time. He was re-elected in 1997, 2001 and again today.

2. The "FIA Formula 1 World Championship" began in 1950.
http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr001.html
The first FIA Formula 1 World Championship began at Silverstone on a Saturday in the spring of 1950.
If the FIA thinks that the Formula 1 World Championship began in 1950 then that's good enough for me. They after all the people who run and sanction the sport.

Several comments:

1. The FISA, the Federation International Sport l'Automobile , succeeded the CSI in 1978. The Commission Sportive Internationale (CSI), formed in 1922, was the sporting authority of the Association Internationale des Automobile Clubs Reconnus (AIACR) which was succeeded by the Federation Internationale de l’Automobile (FIA), the International Automobile Federation) in 1946. Therefore, your statement is only a half truth at best.

2. Incorrect, this statement is simply wrong. The "first FIA Formula 1 World Championship" was held in 1981 (the Long Beach Grand Prix in March) after the FISA and the FIA agreed to to abolish the existing Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs in 1980 and then create a new world championship beginning with the 1981 season. That the FIA does not know not know its own history is scarcely a shock since history is not one of the FIA's strengths, to put it mildly. Here is a link to the first installment of a series on the FIASCO War that might be helpful in providing some background on this generally overlooked event: Poachers turned gamekeepers: how the FOCA became the new FIA (http://8w.forix.com/fiasco-introduction-timeline.html).

3. As has been observed elsewhere, only trivial minds seem to think that trivia is actually important: “The fatal flaw in the concept of trivia is that it mistakes information for knowledge. There is no end to information. Some say the entire universe is made from it, when you get right down to the bottom, under the turtles. There is, alas, quite a shortage of knowledge.” (Roger Ebert, “The Plague of Movie Trivia,” Roger Ebert’s Journal, 30 August 2009.)

4. No offense, "Rollo", but you simply must understand that the vast majority of what is on the Web and even in books regarding "F1" and the world championship that existed from 1950 until 1980 is either incorrect or simply hogwash -- usually both. It was not until the 1961 season that the regulations covering the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs stipulated that the events in the championship would use the current Formule Internationale, which were an entirely separate set of regulations from those of the drivers' championship and the Coupe Internationale des Constructeurs Formule 1 (International Cup for Formula 1 Manufacturers) which was established in 1958.

[SGWilko]

Several comments:

1. The FISA, the Federation International Sport l'Automobile , succeeded the CSI in 1978. The Commission Sportive Internationale (CSI), formed in 1922, was the sporting authority of the Association Internationale des Automobile Clubs Reconnus (AIACR) which was succeeded by the Federation Internationale de l’Automobile (FIA), the International Automobile Federation) in 1946. Therefore, your statement is only a half truth at best.

2. Incorrect, this statement is simply wrong. The "first FIA Formula 1 World Championship" was held in 1981 (the Long Beach Grand Prix in March) after the FISA and the FIA agreed to to abolish the existing Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs in 1980 and then create a new world championship beginning with the 1981 season. That the FIA does not know not know its own history is scarcely a shock since history is not one of the FIA's strengths, to put it mildly. Here is a link to the first installment of a series on the FIASCO War that might be helpful in providing some background on this generally overlooked event: Poachers turned gamekeepers: how the FOCA became the new FIA (http://8w.forix.com/fiasco-introduction-timeline.html).

3. As has been observed elsewhere, only trivial minds seem to think that trivia is actually important: “The fatal flaw in the concept of trivia is that it mistakes information for knowledge. There is no end to information. Some say the entire universe is made from it, when you get right down to the bottom, under the turtles. There is, alas, quite a shortage of knowledge.” (Roger Ebert, “The Plague of Movie Trivia,” Roger Ebert’s Journal, 30 August 2009.)

4. No offense, "Rollo", but you simply must understand that the vast majority of what is on the Web and even in books regarding "F1" and the world championship that existed from 1950 until 1980 is either incorrect or simply hogwash -- usually both. It was not until the 1961 season that the regulations covering the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs stipulated that the events in the championship would use the current Formule Internationale, which were an entirely separate set of regulations from those of the drivers' championship and the Coupe Internationale des Constructeurs Formule 1 (International Cup for Formula 1 Manufacturers) which was established in 1958.

I bet you are a blast down the rubber dub dub...... :p

[Rollo]

The Durex Surtees TS19?

This is even more obscure than that, but the name is more obvious.

[Bruce D]

Don, I've been going through the old Motorsport Magazines on their archive DVDS and have got past the 1961 season and I don't recall at any stage Denis Jenkinson mentioning what you're stating above in point 4, and he was a very in-depth reported who would state these kind of details.

I also have the book Grand Prix vol. 3 which covers the 1981 season and nowhere in there does it state anything about what you are claiming here.

Basically what I'm trying to get at is that I find these claims of yours interesting and I'd like to know if you have some sources where this information is. I do believe that you are quite correct that it would not have been known as the FIA Formula 1 World Championship in 1950, purely because the FIA itself didn't exist in that abbreviation in that time.

[DazzlaF1]

Ok then. This question relates to profanity...

Although the car wasn't exactly named after a rude word, its name could be described as a minced oath or a pseudo-profanity. What was this rude car called?
Im thinking March's attempt at a 6 wheeler (the 2-4-0 Project)

[D-Type]

Bruce D,

DSJ wasn't that bothered about the minutae of championships or the politics of racing. He was interested in the racing - the cars and the drivers. He would have reported technical changes but wouldn't have bothered about the political issues.

You can trust Don's version of events in 1981 - he has investigated the story far more deeply than just what was reported in the magazines of the time.

For details of events before and after the 1981 name change.follow this link http://forix.autosport.com/8w/fiasco-introduction-timeline.html

You could also read the books Bernies Game by Terry Lovell, The Power Game by Ivan Rendell, and The Power Brokers by Alan Henry. But remember that they have to be guarded in what they say. As you are South African I don't think I need say more than that.

[BDunnell]

You can trust Don's version of events in 1981 - he has investigated the story far more deeply than just what was reported in the magazines of the time.

In this instance, I can certainly vouch for that.

[BDunnell]

That the FIA does not know not know its own history is scarcely a shock since history is not one of the FIA's strengths, to put it mildly.

There are, sadly, countless examples of what you describe, now that organisations of all kinds are obsessed with the vulgar concept of 'branding' and have either forgotten or do not like to admit that, in the past, things may have gone under a different name.


As has been observed elsewhere, only trivial minds seem to think that trivia is actually important: “The fatal flaw in the concept of trivia is that it mistakes information for knowledge. There is no end to information. Some say the entire universe is made from it, when you get right down to the bottom, under the turtles. There is, alas, quite a shortage of knowledge.” (Roger Ebert, “The Plague of Movie Trivia,” Roger Ebert’s Journal, 30 August 2009.)

Do you not believe, then, that what to one individual constitutes trivia may, to another, be important?

[Bruce D]

Thanks for the links D-Type. I didn't realise that Don was an author himself. Ironically I do have Bernie's Game and The Power Game in my collection, I found the latter to be a brilliant book with the odd mistake and annoying spelling errors, while the former I find rather frustrating, purely because it's amazing how much has been destroyed by one man, let alone created.

It's an interesting but sad era of F1.

[Rollo]

Back to the question at hand and it's hint time. The car competed in the 1950s.

[52Paddy]

Back to the question at hand and it's hint time. The car competed in the 1950s.

The BMW Heck?

[Rollo]

The BMW Heck?

We have a winner... of sorts.

http://forix.autosport.com/8w/df2/ek-d52.jpg

By rights it shouldn't be a BMW Heck but a Heck BMW, since the chassis is a "Heck" and the engine is a BMW (Heck means "Rear" in German)

Last week the BMW and Mercedes-Benz clubs went on a run and someone from the BMW club had built himself a replica Heck. From what I can gather, Ernst Klodwig built the Heck using the engine from a BMW 328 but built the chassis himself. The car ran in two German Grands Prix as well as other events in Germany and Europe.
The guy in Sydney somehow managed to find some preserved blueprints in the archives of the Berlin State Library, to build his replica from.

[Don Capps]

We have a winner... of sorts.

http://forix.autosport.com/8w/df2/ek-d52.jpg

By rights it shouldn't be a BMW Heck but a Heck BMW, since the chassis is a "Heck" and the engine is a BMW (Heck means "Rear" in German)

Last week the BMW and Mercedes-Benz clubs went on a run and someone from the BMW club had built himself a replica Heck. From what I can gather, Ernst Klodwig built the Heck using the engine from a BMW 328 but built the chassis himself. The car ran in two German Grands Prix as well as other events in Germany and Europe.
The guy in Sydney somehow managed to find some preserved blueprints in the archives of the Berlin State Library, to build his replica from.

Actually, the chassis is a "Klodwig"....

Adding the "Heck" was simply a way of pointing out that this was a BMW special ("Eigenbau") with the engine in the rear. It should actually been referred to as the "Klodwig Eigenbau BMW," but then again consistency in identifying such machines was not always practiced at the time and became even more vague when the English motoring press mangled the names of the cars.

[Don Capps]

Do you not believe, then, that what to one individual constitutes trivia may, to another, be important?

Of course, one man's ceiling may be another man's floor, which is the paradox that seems to be inherent in trivia and the trivial.

[Rollo]

Actually, the chassis is a "Klodwig"....


No, actually it's a "Heck". The car was registered as a "Heck", in official standings it's called a "Heck", heck even the blueprints call it a "Heck". A Lotus isn't called a "Chapman".

[Don Capps]

No, actually it's a "Heck". The car was registered as a "Heck", in official standings it's called a "Heck", heck even the blueprints call it a "Heck". A Lotus isn't called a "Chapman".

Sorry, but you seem to not have read what I wrote. I stated very clearly what it "should" have been named given the way the other German BMW specials were named. The name that seems to have been passed down over the years never seems to have been questioned, which is scarcely a surprise given the lax way all this has been done.

Also, I would be quite interested in seeing you produce those "official standings" from either the AvD or the ONS. Please, do not use any of the internet sites which had simply mindlessly copied their information -- often endlessly repeating the same mistakes ad infinitum -- from a source most have no idea about.

On the entry list it is entered as a "BMW-Eigenbau" or "BMW Special." Some years ago when I wrote about this particular car, I found that the reference "Heck" was meant to distinguish it from the other BMW specials, several of which were also entered in the GP von Deutschland that year. Few (if any) of the contemporary references that I found, it should be noted, seem to use the term "Heck" as a marque when referring to the Klodwig BMW-Eigenbau.

By the way, the Klodwig machine was not the first of the BMW specials with a rear-mounted engine, the Monopol of Helmut Polensky preceding this machine by several years.

While you seem to possess much information, you might wish to work on your knowledge just a bit more. This is a suggestion, not a criticism, since we have all been in that same boat many a time.

[D28]

In addition to those named -- Ireland, Clark, Stewart, Coulthard -- there is another Scot who won in formula one: Archie Scott-Brown, who won the Formula 1 race organized by the B.R.S.C.C. (British Racing & Sports Car Club) at Brands Hatch on 14 October 1956. Scott-Brown drove a Connaught B Type ('B7') entered by Connaught Engineering. True, it was not much of an event, Autosport making reference to the event as the "Brand Hatch Petit Prix." (Paul Sheldon w/ Duncan Rabagliati, A Record of Grand Prix and Voiturette Racing, Volume 6 1954-1959, St. Lenonard's Press, 1987, p. 128). There is also a report on the race in Motor Sport (December 1956, p. 734). However, given that the question asked for Scots who won "F1" races, this race meets that criteria and Scott-Brown should be noted as formula one-winning Scot. Indeed, Scott-Brown was actually the first Scot to win in F1, not Ireland.

Yes, it was assumed that the events were to include those events in the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs (the World Championship for Drivers) which began in 1950 and ended with the 1980 season and those events within the current "FIA Formula 1 World Championship" which began with the 1981 season. Therefore, the only Scot to win a "Formula 1 World Championship" event is actually Coulthard, the others being won under the former championship which was a different one from the current one.

Sorry for the late posting, but I only happened to see this a few moments ago.

I just now saw these comments and I would add this point. I did suppose that there likely were Scots who had won other F1 races. That is why I posed the question as carefully as I could, to include only Grand Prix F1 races. I considered stating WC F1 GP races, but did not because I considered it too long, and assumed most people would understand the question. Was the above race, called a Grand Prix? If we include all F1 races the total would exceed 66, as Clark and Stewart won other non-championship events, but they were not Grand Prix. For me, F1 GP implies a race counting toward the World Drivers Championship.

[Don Capps]

I just now saw these comments and I would add this point. I did suppose that there likely were Scots who had won other F1 races. That is why I posed the question as carefully as I could, to include only Grand Prix F1 races. I considered stating WC F1 GP races, but did not because I considered it too long, and assumed most people would understand the question. Was the above race, called a Grand Prix? If we include all F1 races the total would exceed 66, as Clark and Stewart won other non-championship events, but they were not Grand Prix. For me, F1 GP implies a race counting toward the World Drivers Championship.

The term "Grand Prix" has taken on a meaning much as you state for most who have any level of interest in the sport, if for no other reason than the general lack of F1 events outside the championships for many decades. At one point there was THE "Grand Prix," the Grand Prix de l'Automobile Club de France, which was held from 1906 to 1967. Keep in mind that the term "Grand Prix" is simply French for "Grand Prize," which is a rather generic term outside the realm of automobile racing. In the United States, the term "Grand Prize" was used for the event that the Automobile Club of America created in 1908 to compete for its Gold Cup.

If one considers the events run to the contemporary Formule Internationale using the term Gran Premio, Grote Prijs, Grosser Preis, Grand Prix, and the like, as well as the various others events using the formula, then you find that there are a multitude of events that exist below the radar of those who think that an event run using the "Formula One" regulations must be a championship event. Given that the question did not specify but only implied what you stated, Scott-Brown met that criteria. I did not look at or even consider the Aurora series events, so not sure if any Scot scored a win in that series.

At any rate, your intention was clear, but I wished to make a point regarding Scott-Brown and his formula one victory at Brands Hatch. As an aside, that was also the first "formula one" event for Stuart Lewis-Evans.

[Mark]

I guess the correct term is a "Formula 1 World Championship" event, at least to those races taking place since 1950.

[philipbain]

The term "Grand Prix" has taken on a meaning much as you state for most who have any level of interest in the sport, if for no other reason than the general lack of F1 events outside the championships for many decades.

Its interesting isnt it that even into the early 80s there would be non-championship F1 races that often attracted a very representitive F1 grid. It was the rule of "not all F1 races are Grand Prix" that meant that between 1967 and 1978 there were 3 F1 races per season in England alone, the British Grand Prix (alternating between Silverstone & Brand Hatch), the International Trophy (hosted at Silverstone) & the Race Of Champions (hosted at Brands Hatch), these non-championship F1 races were often given better coverage by the BBC than many F1 championship races, though these were the days before the BBC covered the whole championship (which started in 1977 on the back of James Hunt's championship success the year before). If you were to go back even further into the 1950s and early 1960s there were many more F1 races with non-championship status than there were included in in the F1 World Championship.

[D28]

If one considers the events run to the contemporary Formule Internationale using the term Gran Premio, Grote Prijs, Grosser Preis, Grand Prix, and the like, as well as the various others events using the formula, then you find that there are a multitude of events that exist below the radar of those who think that an event run using the "Formula One" regulations must be a championship event. Given that the question did not specify but only implied what you stated, Scott-Brown met that criteria. I did not look at or even consider the Aurora series events, so not sure if any Scot scored a win in that series.

At any rate, your intention was clear, but I wished to make a point regarding Scott-Brown and his formula one victory at Brands Hatch. As an aside, that was also the first "formula one" event for Stuart Lewis-Evans.

I guess my intention was not completely clear. I wished to avoid saying "... wins and breakdown for Scottish drivers in World Championship F1 races, 1950 to present, (including the 52-53 F2 specification races)". Quite a mouthful that.
Incidentally the answer of 66 is quickly documented in dozens of sources, while the total for all F1 races is difficult to determine. I did find Jim Clarks non-championship wins as 19, bringing his toal to 44.
Stewart's non-championship totals are at least 2, and I suspect more. Ireland's are about 3. I have found no other winners to the list other than Scott-Brown.
All this merely shows that the answer to total wins is elusive, but Clark is completely dominant. Perhaps someone would like to complete the table.

[52Paddy]

We have a winner... of sorts.

Interesting posts here. Anyway, onto the next question: Steffi Graf's boyfriend (at the time) entered a few Formula 1 event during the 1990s. Who was he?

[ArrowsFA1]

Interesting posts here. Anyway, onto the next question: Steffi Graf's boyfriend (at the time) entered a few Formula 1 event during the 1990s. Who was he?
That would be Michael Bartels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Bartels) who attempted to qualify for a few races with Team Lotus in 1991.

[BDunnell]

Also, I would be quite interested in seeing you produce those "official standings" from either the AvD or the ONS. Please, do not use any of the internet sites which had simply mindlessly copied their information -- often endlessly repeating the same mistakes ad infinitum -- from a source most have no idea about.

On the entry list it is entered as a "BMW-Eigenbau" or "BMW Special." Some years ago when I wrote about this particular car, I found that the reference "Heck" was meant to distinguish it from the other BMW specials, several of which were also entered in the GP von Deutschland that year. Few (if any) of the contemporary references that I found, it should be noted, seem to use the term "Heck" as a marque when referring to the Klodwig BMW-Eigenbau.

If we may digress slightly, we shouldn't think that every contemporary official source is an accurate source of information on such matters. Obviously, I can't comment on this instance, but if official race entry lists are anything like official documents relating to British military aircraft, for example, they are bound to be riddled with errors relating to names, even on the part of those closest to the subject.

[Don Capps]

I guess the correct term is a "Formula 1 World Championship" event, at least to those races taking place since 1950.

You may have an event in the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs which was run using the Formule Internationale, which was possible from 1950 to 1980, but a "Formula 1 World Championship" event can only be one held from 1981 until the present.

Therefore, no, it is not the correct term. The correct term in English would be the "World Championship for Drivers" from 1950 to 1980.

Not being difficult, but there is a very distinct difference between the two championships, even if nearly everyone seems determined to ignore that difference and pretend it does not exist.

[Don Capps]

If we may digress slightly, we shouldn't think that every contemporary official source is an accurate source of information on such matters. Obviously, I can't comment on this instance, but if official race entry lists are anything like official documents relating to British military aircraft, for example, they are bound to be riddled with errors relating to names, even on the part of those closest to the subject.

Which is why one uses multiple sources and you can still get it wrong. The Klodwig entry cited, "BMW-Eigenbau," was taken from the magazine that the Nűrburgring published beginning in the 1930s. However, after digging back through my notes, I then started to rummage around in my files and found what I have established as the source for the machine being referred to as the "Heck" -- Autocourse Vol. II, No. 5, 1952, page 38, which lists the No. 135 machine as a "BMW-Heck" rather than as simply a "BMW-Eigenbau" as it was elsewhere. The author was an Italian, Corrado Millanta, writing in Italian regarding a German race for an English publication. Ponder that for a moment and you see why even the best efforts to conduct scholarly research on topics in automobile racing history can be rather maddening. In this case, you can see how the term "Heck" as it referred to the Klodwig machine may have been misinterpreted or simply misunderstood. This is just a supposition, of course, given years after I conducted the original research, but this seems to make a certain sense, especially given that the source for much of the information and misinformation regarding the results of the various "Grand Prix" and "Voiturette" events used Autocourse as one of their basic references.

Interestingly, that source has now published a revised edition of their original work covering the 1960 to 1964 period, but now conforming to the results as originally given. This is significant since they used the system in effect beginning with the 1966 season regarding finishing positions and retroactively applied to earlier season which altered the results, a bit of revisionism that was done to standardize the results, but with the advent of the internet data thieves simply endlessly repeated the erroneous information. While done with the best of intentions, it should not have been done at all, the information kept as originally recorded -- which was challenging enough to sort out.

[52Paddy]

That would be Michael Bartels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Bartels) who attempted to qualify for a few races with Team Lotus in 1991.

Correct :up:

According to wikipedia, Steffi Graf ended up marrying Andre Agassi in the end :p :

[52Paddy]

You may have an event in the [i]Not being difficult, but there is a very distinct difference between the two championships, even if nearly everyone seems determined to ignore that difference and pretend it does not exist.

I'm asking this question out of interest, not in order to dispute your comment: What is this "distinct difference" you refer to?

[Don Capps]

I'm asking this question out of interest, not in order to dispute your comment: What is this "distinct difference" you refer to?

Good question.

Beginning with the new "FIA Formula 1 World Championship" that came into being with the 1981 season, the FIA/FISA owned the commercial rights to the championship which was not the case with the prior championship. While that may not seem to be much, it completely changed the entire way the series was run. In addition, the technical formula and the sporting or championship regulations were combined into a single entity as a result. All that is, as one might say, quite a "distinct difference."

Although the teams knew this immediately, the reason for the fight that FOCA put up, for reasons that continue to baffle me everyone else seemed to either not realize what happened, ignored it for whatever reason or never knew it happened in the first place. It certainly took me a bit to figure exactly what happened, especially since the fallout of the FIASCO War continued until at least the 1984 season.

[Formulacoop]

Here is some CART trivia for you all;

Dan Gurney famously wrote the "white paper" that was the draft of what was to become Championship Auto Racing Teams. The first race under the CART banner was held March 11th, 1979. Question; Where was the first race held and who was the winner of that race?

Another question; Who was the co-founder of CART along with Dan Gurney?

[D28]

Here is some CART trivia for you all;

Dan Gurney famously wrote the "white paper" that was the draft of what was to become Championship Auto Racing Teams. The first race under the CART banner was held March 11th, 1979. Question; Where was the first race held and who was the winner of that race?


Another question; Who was the co-founder of CART along with Dan Gurney?

I believe Gordon Johncock won the first race in Arizona. Roger Penske was a co-founder of CART.

[Formulacoop]

Well Done!

How about; Who did Emerson Fittipaldi drove for when he came to CART?

[D28]

Well Done!

How about; Who did Emerson Fittipaldi drove for when he came to CART?

I think it was Pat Patrick?

[52Paddy]

Good question.

Beginning with the new "FIA Formula 1 World Championship" that came into being with the 1981 season, the FIA/FISA owned the commercial rights to the championship which was not the case with the prior championship. While that may not seem to be much, it completely changed the entire way the series was run. In addition, the technical formula and the sporting or championship regulations were combined into a single entity as a result. All that is, as one might say, quite a "distinct difference."

Although the teams knew this immediately, the reason for the fight that FOCA put up, for reasons that continue to baffle me everyone else seemed to either not realize what happened, ignored it for whatever reason or never knew it happened in the first place. It certainly took me a bit to figure exactly what happened, especially since the fallout of the FIASCO War continued until at least the 1984 season.

I see. Thanks for that. I agree that it is a definitely a difference in how the series is run but is it correct to consider this a "different championship"? It seems more like taking what was already there, and putting it into different boxes, if you get me. Had the name change been imposed by FIA/FISA because of their rights to the commercial side of the sport? If so, I would still consider it the same series/championship, albeit under a different guise. Wouldn't it be fair to assume this?

[Don Capps]

I see. Thanks for that. I agree that it is a definitely a difference in how the series is run but is it correct to consider this a "different championship"? It seems more like taking what was already there, and putting it into different boxes, if you get me. Had the name change been imposed by FIA/FISA because of their rights to the commercial side of the sport? If so, I would still consider it the same series/championship, albeit under a different guise. Wouldn't it be fair to assume this?

The FIA literally terminated in 1980 the championship that existed from 1950 to that year. It was legally, technically, and literally a new and different championship. That the same people continued to participate is irrelevant.

[Don Capps]

To add some more regarding the termination of the old championship and the creation of the new championship.

Several years ago when I first broached this topic, there was -- to put it mildly -- great disbelief and much gnashing of teeth and raised fists accompanying the literal anger that this generated. Indeed, the editor of AtlasF1 at the time, Bira Goren, refused to accept this idea in any way, shape of form. She and I had more than a few -- mostly cross -- words about this topic alone, her refusal to accept this notion being almost humorous to me, except for the problems it caused.

That the teams and the sponsors and the FIA/FISA sailed majestically along like the proverbial swan is to dismiss all the kicking and fluttering that was taking place beneath the surface. The struggle between the FOCA and the FISA was over the money, the commercial rights, associated with the championship. In essense, Balestre went to the nuclear option early, having the FIA Congress at Rio in April 1980 terminate the existing Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs and all that was entailed with that championship and then creating a new championship that was literally the "FIA Formula 1 World Championship" which was an entity wholly owned and controlled by the FISA for the FIA.

Take my word for it, the old 1950 to 1980 World Championship for Drivers was killed as dead as if someone had driven a stake through its heart. By doing so, this allowed the FISA to put new commercial agreements in place and to control the new championship lock, stock, and barrel. You need only to take the time to read what was in the 1981FIA "Yellow Book" to realize that.

Saying it was not so and denying it does not change anything, which many continue to do, stating that since they did not notice that anything had changed, therefore, nothing changed. That is, of course, the line Bira and countless others took and contnue to take. That there is a trophy with "FIA Formula 1 World Champions" engraved upon it and the names all the world champions from 1950 to 1980 and then those beginning with 1981 thereon does not make it correct.

Many see this as a meaningless quibble and, therefore, meaningless. I understand, but that is to miss the point. Something happened of major importance and it has been simply ignored. That the average fan or even the F1 fanatics of the time seem to have missed this is one of the reasons that I tend to have a low regard for most of those motor sport writers of the time. Denis Jenkinson, as was his usual wont, almost completely ignored the entire FIASCO War, deigning only to make often oblique sarcastic or caustic remarks about the entire affair, his usual hatred of politics being in high gear at that moment.

That the casual F1 fan cannot sense, fathom, grasp or even cares that there have been two championships is understandable. It certainly took me time for this to sink in, not being sure that I actually understood what had happened. However, if one desires to know about the history of the "F1 world championship," it begins with understanding that there have been two, even if the Untrained Eye cannot see that. I harp on this because despite what many think, the championship that came into being with the 1981 season really was different than the one it replaced.

The American championship picture is even more convoluted, a topic of often heated denials of what happened and the use of ugly ad hominum attacks.

[52Paddy]

Thanks for that. That's given another slant on things.

[D-Type]

let's get back to trivia.

Which was the first Le Mans 24 hour race not to start with the traditional "Le Mans Start"?

[Don Capps]

let's get back to trivia.

Which was the first Le Mans 24 hour race not to start with the traditional "Le Mans Start"?

Actually, it was the very first of the Grands Prix of Endurance in 1923. That year the event used a mass start with the cars lined up in two rows in front of the grandstands and the pits. This sort of mass start was quite unusual in Europe at the time, although commonplace in the United States.

In 1924, the cars sat in two rows as in the previous year, but without the engines running, the cars not being allowed to start their engines until signaled.

It was not until the 1925 event that the showmanship involved in the "Le Mans" start entered the picture. The drivers had to dash across the road to their machines, erect the hoods, start the engine using the on-board electric starter, and then depart to begin the race.

[D28]

let's get back to trivia.

Which was the first Le Mans 24 hour race not to start with the traditional "Le Mans Start"?

I think the answer you are looking for is 1970. That year the traditional start which Don Capps points out began in 1925, was replaced. The drivers sat in their cars with harness done up. This did not work very well and a rolling start was inaugerated for 1971.

[D-Type]

Full marks to Don who avoided the trap ;)

[Ranger]

When was the last time three drivers won a championship* race for the same team in the same year?

*1950 to present will do.

[Rollo]

1970 sounds pretty convaluted with drives in and out of Lotii.

[Dave B]

Salo almost won for Ferrari in 99 while subbing for Schumacher but gifted it to Irvine.

[BDunnell]

1970 sounds pretty convaluted with drives in and out of Lotii.

I'm not sure three drivers won in Lotus cars in 1970. Off the top of my head, Rindt and Fittipaldi did win; Miles and Wisell didn't.

[Don Capps]

Without even thinking about it, Scuderia Ferrari had Ascari, Farina, and Hawthorn win rounds in the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs in 1953; however, if you include Musso whose machine was taken over by Fangio in the Argentine round, as you should, then Fangio and Collins allowed Scuderia Ferrari to repeat the feat in 1956.

[Ranger]

Without even thinking about it, Scuderia Ferrari had Ascari, Farina, and Hawthorn win rounds in the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs in 1953; however, if you include Musso whose machine was taken over by Fangio in the Argentine round, as you should, then Fangio and Collins allowed Scuderia Ferrari to repeat the feat in 1956.

Correct.

Kind of odd when you consider how many times it could have/came close to happening, but has only done so 1.5 times in 60+ years.

[D28]

Correct.

Kind of odd when you consider how many times it could have/came close to happening, but has only done so 1.5 times in 60+ years.

1961 seems to fit the answer if I understand correctly. Baghetti, P Hill and Von Tripps all won championship rounds for Ferrari.

[Ranger]

1961 seems to fit the answer if I understand correctly. Baghetti, P Hill and Von Tripps all won championship rounds for Ferrari.

Not strictly true.

As I understand it, Baghetti didn't win the French Grand Prix for Scuderia Ferrari like the other two did. Hence it was not exactly the same team.

Likewise Brabham, McLaren and Moss all won races in a Cooper-Climax in 1959. However Moss drove for Rob Walker Racing, whereas the other two drove for Cooper Car Company.

Clark, Hill and Siffert all won races in a Lotus car in 1968, but Siffert won for Rob Walker Racing, whereas the other two drove for Team Lotus.

[D28]

1961 seems to fit the answer if I understand correctly. Baghetti, P Hill and Von Tripps all won championship rounds for Ferrari.
On reflection and checking, I see Baghetti's entry for France was by FISA not the Scuderia. Does this disqualify 1961 as the answer? I always believed Ferrari had entered Baghetti, but noticed the difference recently. Would it be safe to say in those days it was somewhat murky who was actually financing and managing a Ferrari entry?

[Don Capps]

On reflection and checking, I see Baghetti's entry for France was by FISA not the Scuderia. Does this disqualify 1961 as the answer? I always believed Ferrari had entered Baghetti, but noticed the difference recently. Would it be safe to say in those days it was somewhat murky who was actually financing and managing a Ferrari entry?

Given that this is a "trivia" question, there is almost always a "Catch-22" involved.

Again, without much thought, I came up with 1953, 1956, and -- initially -- 1961, but discarded the latter when the question specifically stated the following: "When was the last time three drivers won a championship* race for the same team in the same year? *1950 to present will do." To me this meant that the FISA (Federazione Italiana Scuderie Automobilistiche) entry (previously using the Scuderia Sant Ambroeus name) for Baghetti at Reims had to be considered as a separate entry -- which it basically was anyway -- from the Ferrari SpA SEFAC entries for that season. The issue of the preparation of the machine used by Baghetti is one that deserves some mention. The Tipo 156 chassis used by Baghetti was the same one entered in the name of Ecurie Nationale Belge at Spa and driven by Gendebien. The ENB had invested in a team of Emeryson chassis built by Paul Emery and Gendebien was contacted to the team for their Formule Internationale efforts, although also a member of the team that Ferrari fielded in the Championnat du Monde des Marques events for that season. The ENB deal with Ferrari was a one-off with the proviso that it could be extended -- for a price. ENB declined and the chassis was now available as a possible spare for the team, being equipped with a 65-degree engine versus the 120-degree engines being used by the team of Hill, Ginther, and von Trips. There was an almost literally last monent decision to enter Baghetti in the GP de l'Automobile Club de France, the chassis being hastily repainted from the yellow used at Spa-Francorchamps by ENB to red for an entry provided by FISA, hence the high number allocated to the entry, "50". Given the earlier success by Baghetti at Siracusa and Napoli, it was decided to give Baghetti the opportunity to get some "track time" and little was actually expected from the effort. Indeed, barring what almost seems as a comedy of errors on the part of a number of potential winners -- Hill, von Trips, Ginther, Bonnier, and Gurney, any one of whom could have won the race -- Baghetti would never have figured in the final results. However, give full credit where credit is due, when the time came, Baghetti stepped up and performed well enough to gain the victory, once again besting Gurney at the finish, just as had been the case at Siracusa.

Much the same for the Cooper situation during 1959, the Cooper Car Company entires for Brabham and McLaren being quite separate and distinct from that of the R.R.C. Walker Racing Team entry for Moss.

Very, very different times....

[Bruce D]

Don, I'm surprised Bernie hasn't made you "sleep with the fishes" yet - you clearly know too much! :laugh:

Always great to read a real historians information, keep it up! :up:

[D-Type]

In the interest of accuracy, the 1961 Belgian GP entry was in the name of Equipe Nationale Belge not Ecurie National Belge.

I'm not sure of the exact history - it's complicated. At different times there were Ecurie Belge, Ecurie Belgique, Equipe Nationale Belge, Ecurie Franconchamps and, I believe, Ecurie National Belge in existence. The teams were all related with many of the same people involved with running and funding them but in different combinations at different times.

[Don Capps]

In the interest of accuracy, the 1961 Belgian GP entry was in the name of Equipe Nationale Belge not Ecurie National Belge.

I'm not sure of the exact history - it's complicated. At different times there were Ecurie Belge, Ecurie Belgique, Equipe Nationale Belge, Ecurie Franconchamps and, I believe, Ecurie National Belge in existence. The teams were all related with many of the same people involved with running and funding them but in different combinations at different times.

For the 1961 season alone, while I was researching that season, I found several variations using "Ecurie" and "Equipe" regarding this team, ENB, these terms often being deemed interchangeable -- by at least those in the British motoring press. "Ecurie" popped into my mind, although it could just as easily been "Equipe" given that it was also used that season.

As mentioned, there were a plentitude of variations on the theme along with, as mentioned, a generous overlap when it came to the personnel involved. Someone once attempted to use Venn diagrams to sort out the relationships regarding this group and, needless to say, ended up confusing everyone just that much more it seemed.

[Don Capps]

Don, I'm surprised Bernie hasn't made you "sleep with the fishes" yet - you clearly know too much! :laugh:

Always great to read a real historians information, keep it up! :up:

Well, once upon a time Bernie did read my column -- printed out for him by one of his daughters I was told according to a Usually Reliable Source within the Formula 1 world on several occasions, which did not stop him from pulling my credentials for the United States Grand Prix in 2002, so....

Of course, I prefer to impart my "knowledge" rather than merely pass on "information" whenever possible.

What I don't know regarding automobile racing history far exceeds what I do know, which is never enough it seems. Plus, while I utterly hate "trivia" and think it as truly trivial, it does provide a means of pushing the envelope a tad, pointing folks towards places to look to find more. Then again, I am pretty much clueless on anything remotely current, having nary an idea as to what is going on. I doubt that most of the last dozen or so volumes of Autocourse that I have on the bookshelf have been opened at all or certainly not more than once. No interest. Buy it out of habit, which I will probably finally break once and for all very soon.

[D28]

I'm not sure of the exact history - it's complicated. At different times there were Ecurie Belge, Ecurie Belgique, Equipe Nationale Belge, Ecurie Franconchamps and, I believe, Ecurie National Belge in existence. The teams were all related with many of the same people involved with running and funding them but in different combinations at different times.

I had always assumed till now that ENB and Ecurie Francorchamps were separate entities.
In Keith Bluemel's great book Ferrari 250 GTO, Jacques Swaters is quoted on his fondest memories of competition Ferraris. At LeMans 1963 he says " My Ecurie Francorchamps cars finished 2nd and 4th overall, 1st and 2nd in class".
The official entry table has them listed as Equipe Nationale Belge (2nd) and Ecurie Francorchamps (4th). There is ample room for confusion.
Anyway they were a competitive outfit with some very impressive results.

[Bruce D]

Anyone got another question?

[Ranger]

Anyone got another question?

Name the last time a black car led a lap of a Formula 1 race.

*West McLarens were Silver IMO.

*Championship races 1950 to present will do. ;)

[steveaki13]

Trying hard to think of many black F1 cars.

Minardi were black in 2002 and 2003, but obviously didn't lead a lap.
Arrows were black in 1998 but again don't think they led anywhere.
Sauber were black in ? 1993 and 1994 if I'm correct.
Andrea Moda was black.
And Minardi were black in the early 90's sometime.

Erm can't remember a black car leading, so I assume it is before my following of F1.

[cos]

Name the last time a black car led a lap of a Formula 1 race.

*West McLarens were Silver IMO.

*Championship races 1950 to present will do. ;)

Winkelhock's Spyker was more black than orange in Germany '07?

[steveaki13]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/markuswinkelhock_spyker_nurburgring_2007_q1.jpg

Its still quite orange though.

If Mallen is not including the mostly black Mclarens of 1997-2005 then I think the Spyker isn't black enough.

[Ranger]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/markuswinkelhock_spyker_nurburgring_2007_q1.jpg

Its still quite orange though.

If Mallen is not including the mostly black Mclarens of 1997-2005 then I think the Spyker isn't black enough.

No it isnt. :p

[Bruce D]

Depending on how much of the car was black, it could be Pierluigi Martini in the Minardi at the Portugese GP 1989. That car was mostly black but also some yellow. If you mean totally black I'd take a stab and say Jean-Pierre Jarier in the Shadow at the 1975 Brazilian GP, pole and lead for a while before the damn thing broke again.

[Ranger]

Depending on how much of the car was black, it could be Pierluigi Martini in the Minardi at the Portugese GP 1989. That car was mostly black but also some yellow. If you mean totally black I'd take a stab and say Jean-Pierre Jarier in the Shadow at the 1975 Brazilian GP, pole and lead for a while before the damn thing broke again.

Knowing early Minardi's were black with yellow highlights, I asked the question with this answer in mind.

However then I looked at the picture of the 1989 car:
http://www.skyscraperpicture.com/f1pictures/martini89minardihockenheim6-1.JPG

A lot less black than I thought. In fact thats mostly yellow and white.

The answer is a lot more famous.

[Shifter]

Could it have been Mexico, 1986? The black Lotus in the hands of Senna is the last truly 'black' car I can remember that had the ability to lead a race. Yes, there was some gold on it but the first thing about the livery was that it was black, nose-to-tail.


I didn't actually watch F1 until 2000 or so, so I bet I'm wrong and theres probably some wacky rain race that put a black car in the lead for perhaps a lap since then.

[Bob Riebe]

The JPS Loti ran from 1970-1987.

[Ranger]

Could it have been Mexico, 1986? The black Lotus in the hands of Senna is the last truly 'black' car I can remember that had the ability to lead a race. Yes, there was some gold on it but the first thing about the livery was that it was black, nose-to-tail.


I didn't actually watch F1 until 2000 or so, so I bet I'm wrong and theres probably some wacky rain race that put a black car in the lead for perhaps a lap since then.

Is the correct answer. :up:

Your turn.

[Rollo]

A Challenger Appears...


Could it have been Mexico, 1986? The black Lotus in the hands of Senna is the last truly 'black' car I can remember that had the ability to lead a race. Yes, there was some gold on it but the first thing about the livery was that it was black, nose-to-tail.

Possibly Adelaide 1986?

http://i945.photobucket.com/albums/ad297/rollo75/sennaade.jpg

In order that's Senna, Piquet, Mansell, Prost, Johansson...


The JPS Loti ran from 1970-1987.

Lotus in 1987-1989 were yellow cars sponsored by Camel.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4109/5086342582_6f6e3a7027.jpg

Actually I think that Satoru Nakajima's Camel Lotus in 1987 may have been the first car in F1 to mounted with a camera broadcasting live vision.

[Rollo]

I didn't actually watch F1 until 2000 or so, so I bet I'm wrong and theres probably some wacky rain race that put a black car in the lead for perhaps a lap since then.

The only lap that Minardi led as Minardi (not including after they became Toro Rosso because Vettel won a GP), was at Estoril in 1989, but I can't for the life of me remember if it was one of their black cars or not.

[Marbles]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blHFXVjbsh8

But they had a few different cars that year?

http://www.allf1.info/teams/minardi.php

[Ranger]

A Challenger Appears...



Possibly Adelaide 1986?

http://i945.photobucket.com/albums/ad297/rollo75/sennaade.jpg

In order that's Senna, Piquet, Mansell, Prost, Johansson...

Senna never led at the start/finish line and hence was not classified as leading a lap - Piquet led at the end of lap 1.

[52Paddy]

New question, since Shifter seems to have disappeared: Who designed the 1976 Hill GH2 which never raced?

[Shifter]

Sorry yeah I'm on quite a different time schedule, plus I was trying to think up a good question!

[52Paddy]

Sorry yeah I'm on quite a different time schedule, plus I was trying to think up a good question!

That's no problem. Feel free to pose one if you think of one.

[Shifter]

Meanwhile, everyone concentrate on 52Paddy's question, thanks!

[D28]

New question, since Shifter seems to have disappeared: Who designed the 1976 Hill GH2 which never raced?

My guess is Andy Smallman.

[D-Type]

Now 52Paddy has gone walkabout :confused:

That answer is correct (according to my reference books) :up:

So D28 go ahead and post a question.

[D28]

Of the following list of countries, traditionally on the F1, WC calendar, one is an outlier, in that a basic race stat never occurred. Which country/statistic?

Brazil, Argentina, USA, Canada, Belgium, Britain, France, Italy, Germany, Austria, Spain, S. Africa.

[Rollo]

The only thing I can think of doesn't apply.

For that list, the British and Italian Grands Prix, are the only two on the calendar to have been held every year. The outlier being that the Italian GP has never been stopped but always gone to race completion? The British GP was stopped in 1986 after a massive pile-up at the start.

[Bruce D]

South Africa is the only one of that list that has never had a safety car, if that's what you're looking for.

[D28]

Bruce D, Rollo: Neither answer is what I have in mind.

[Marbles]

1980 Spanish GP declared illegal and no points awarded? (FOCA\FISA war)

[D-Type]

Belgium is the only country that has never produced a World Champion

[D28]

Belgium is the only country that has never produced a World Champion

That is a correct answer, in that Belgium is the outlier. I was looking for a different stat, other than not having a WC. So your answer is right, but can you think of another reason for Belgium not belonging in this group?

[Rollo]

To be fair though Jacky Ickx who is Belgian did win the Le Mans 24 Hours, the Spa 24 Hours, a Bathurst 1000 and a Paris-Dakar Rally, so it's not as if Belgium is totally disgraced either.

[Ranger]

That is a correct answer, in that Belgium is the outlier. I was looking for a different stat, other than not having a WC. So your answer is right, but can you think of another reason for Belgium not belonging in this group?

No Belgian driver has won his home grand prix, every other country has drivers who won their home GP.

EDIT: Andretti won the USGP West, still enough of a 'home' GP though.

[D28]

No Belgian driver has won his home grand prix, every other country has drivers who won their home GP.

EDIT: Andretti won the USGP West, still enough of a 'home' GP though.

Correct, that is what I was looking for. D-Type also has a correct answer, I just did not realize it when I posed the question.

[Ranger]

This is a picture question.

Name the driver:

(Hint: he is frequently seen at F1 events.)
http://i.imgur.com/Tz1e3l.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PgsuOl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ys0Bvl.jpg

[Rollo]

Given that it's an early 1980s Renault the it's probably one of the drivers who was alongside Alain Prost. I would suggest that it's not Eddie Cheever since he's busy with his Grand-Am cars.

Is it Rene Arnoux?

[Don Capps]

EDIT: Andretti won the USGP West, still enough of a 'home' GP though.

Andretti won the "III Long Beach Grand Prix" which was the moniker invented by the Chris Pook team to hype the event in Long Beach. The 1975 F5000 event was the I LBGP and the 1976 event which was part of the CSI's Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs was actually II LBGP, but the publicity machine went overboard and created the "US Grand Prix West" for the occasion and not much of anyone questioned it. Yes, the 1976 program has "US Grand Prix West" plastered all over it, but it should be kept in mind that the program was the product of the promoter whose basic job was to, well, promote the event.

While there have been many squawks, quibbles, and squabbles regarding this relatively minor (even trivial) issue, it was always -- and remains -- the "Long Beach Grand Prix."

[D28]

Andretti won the "III Long Beach Grand Prix" which was the moniker invented by the Chris Pook team to hype the event in Long Beach. The 1975 F5000 event was the I LBGP and the 1976 event which was part of the CSI's Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs was actually II LBGP, but the publicity machine went overboard and created the "US Grand Prix West" for the occasion and not much of anyone questioned it. Yes, the 1976 program has "US Grand Prix West" plastered all over it, but it should be kept in mind that the program was the product of the promoter whose basic job was to, well, promote the event.

While there have been many squawks, quibbles, and squabbles regarding this relatively minor (even trivial) issue, it was always -- and remains -- the "Long Beach Grand Prix."

In researching my question, I consulted about 5 databases which confirmed that US had 2 races on the 1977 calendar, and that Mario Andretti did indeed win the first one. What it was called did not concern me. Mario belongs on the list of national winners, of that there can be no doubt. (I also know where he was born and have taken that to account).

[Don Capps]

In researching my question, I consulted about 5 databases which confirmed that US had 2 races on the 1977 calendar, and that Mario Andretti did indeed win the first one. What it was called did not concern me. Mario belongs on the list of national winners, of that there can be no doubt. (I also know where he was born and have taken that to account).

You are correct that the United States had two events that counted towards the CSI's Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs during the 1977 season and that Mario Andretti won the first of those two events, the Long Beach Grand Prix. The XX United States Grand Prix (the numbering is another source of angst for some) was held at Watkins Glen in the Fall of 1977. While it might be irrelevant to you and others, what an event is named is of interest to some of us, although why is often a good question since fans could generally care less.

However, you did not need to use Andretti to make your case, since Johnny Parsons, an American, won the US round in the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs in 1950, as did an American each year the International 500 Mile Sweepstakes race was the US round in the championship.

Just pointing out the trival in keeping with the theme of the thread.

Speaking of internet databases and trivia, most contain errors that were simply copied from the original source material, the Formula 1 Register's "Black Books," most of which are fairly trivial and affect information provided from the pre-1965 era. Any clue as to what those errors generally relate to?

[D28]

You are correct that the United States had two events that counted towards the CSI's Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs during the 1977 season and that Mario Andretti won the first of those two events, the Long Beach Grand Prix. The XX United States Grand Prix (the numbering is another source of angst for some) was held at Watkins Glen in the Fall of 1977. While it might be irrelevant to you and others, what an event is named is of interest to some of us, although why is often a good question since fans could generally care less.

However, you did not need to use Andretti to make your case, since Johnny Parsons, an American, won the US round in the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs in 1950, as did an American each year the International 500 Mile Sweepstakes race was the US round in the championship.

Just pointing out the trival in keeping with the theme of the thread.

Speaking of internet databases and trivia, most contain errors that were simply copied from the original source material, the Formula 1 Register's "Black Books," most of which are fairly trivial and affect information provided from the pre-1965 era. Any clue as to what those errors generally relate to?

I'm sure you are correct, but what is a casual observer, and I am more than that, to do. Even Formula1.com which purports to be the official F1 website, refers to USA West and USA East in 1977. Presumably one reason to do this is that some outside US would not know where Longbeach was and might not realize USA had 2 races. US West and East is an accurate description of the 2 race location at least, and better than USA 1 and USA 2. I'm pretty sure the names are stuck now, whatever the correct terminology is.

[Bob Riebe]

What was Detroit called?

[Don Capps]

I'm sure you are correct, but what is a casual observer, and I am more than that, to do. Even Formula1.com which purports to be the official F1 website, refers to USA West and USA East in 1977. Presumably one reason to do this is that some outside US would not know where Longbeach was and might not realize USA had 2 races. US West and East is an accurate description of the 2 race location at least, and better than USA 1 and USA 2. I'm pretty sure the names are stuck now, whatever the correct terminology is.

As historians -- automotive and otherwise -- are often very painfully aware, being correct is often irrelevant.

But, I digress....

It was called -- with great originality, of course -- the "Detroit Grand Prix" -- just as there were the "Dallas Grand Prix" and the "Caesars Palace Grand Prix" to go along with the "Long Beach Grand Prix." When the "United States Grand Prix" was no longer held at Watkins Glen after the last effort in 1980, the title did not transfer to any of the other venues. Why that was the case is a good question and not necessarily easy to answer. However, there was the oddity of the "United States Grand Prix" being held at the Meadowlands for at least one year, 1984, as a CART event. Ponder that for a moment. Then came and went the Phoenix and Indianapolis editions of the USGP. There was, of course, the effort to refer to the 1938 edition of the Memorial Day event at Indianapolis as the "Indianapolis Grand Prix."

No one ever said that this was easy.

Beginning in 1908, there was the "Automobile Club of American Grand Prize for the Gold Cup," the formal name for what is usually referred to as the "American Grand Prize," which held its last road race in 1916 at Santa Monica (coupled with the William K. Vanderbilt, Jr. Cup beginning with the 1911 event), but was revived by the ACA for presentation to the 1930 winner of the International 500 Mile Sweepstakes for reasons I have never quite been able to determine much less fathom.

[D28]

For what it is worth, the Formula1.com site refers to the 1984 Detroit race as USA East and the Dallas race 2 weeks later as United States. For the following 2 years with just one (Detroit GP) they still refer to it as USA East. From 1987 till 1991 they call the Detroit and Phoenix races United States. I gather that these are not necessarilly the official names of the races.

[Ranger]

Given that it's an early 1980s Renault the it's probably one of the drivers who was alongside Alain Prost. I would suggest that it's not Eddie Cheever since he's busy with his Grand-Am cars.

Is it Rene Arnoux?

Wrong tree. ;)

It may/may not be a Formula 1 driver.

[Rollo]

Wrong tree. ;)

It may/may not be a Formula 1 driver.

It's not Chris Lilley doing a promo for yet another one of his unfunny "comedy" programs that he's doing, which have been designed to suck money from the ABC is it?

[Don Capps]

For what it is worth, the Formula1.com site refers to the 1984 Detroit race as USA East and the Dallas race 2 weeks later as United States. For the following 2 years with just one (Detroit GP) they still refer to it as USA East. From 1987 till 1991 they call the Detroit and Phoenix races United States. I gather that these are not necessarily the official names of the races.

As usual, when you have enthusiasts and PR hacks/flacks/quacks handle things rather than historians, you soon understand the concept of garbage in, crap out. There is good reason that one often feels a sense of despair when reading that sort of nonsense and the latent damage it does to those who later attempt to historical truth from the PR bull crap and nonsense.

It is a pleasant surprise to realize that the Formua1.com site folks did go back and clean up most of the pre-1966 errors that once existed. Of course, the site is really concerned with only those races which counted towards either the former Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs (1950-1980) or the current Formula 1 World Championship (since the 1981 season) and does not include a whole bunch of events run to the Formule Internationale over the years. But, then again what else would do you expect?

[52Paddy]

My guess is Andy Smallman.

Sorry for the hypocritical delay but, for the record, this is the correct answer :)

[Ranger]

It's not Chris Lilley doing a promo for yet another one of his unfunny "comedy" programs that he's doing, which have been designed to suck money from the ABC is it?

Baha, no not quite.

I'll give the answer in another day or two. Hints available on request.

[Ranger]

The answer, ladies and gentlemen, is Norbert Haug.

Prior to his management of the motorsport division of Mercedes-Benz, he was a motoring journalist. As such he tested many vehicles, including the Renault RE30 at Paul Ricard circuit in 1983, shown in the above picture.

Hard to imagine!

[steveaki13]

The answer, ladies and gentlemen, is Norbert Haug.

Prior to his management of the motorsport division of Mercedes-Benz, he was a motoring journalist. As such he tested many vehicles, including the Renault RE30 at Paul Ricard circuit in 1983, shown in the above picture.

Hard to imagine!

Now you say it, I looked again and you could tell its his eyes actually, but I didn't get it on my own.

He has filled out a little since then.

[D28]

Who was the last Le Mans winner (overall), to also score a F1 GP win?

[BDunnell]

Michele Alboreto, surely?

[D28]

Right, 1997 he won at Le Mans. That's 14 years ago, I thought someone else would have done it, but he is the last.

Good work!

[BDunnell]

And a bit of a sad reflection on the lack of involvement by current or even recent top-line F1 drivers in Le Mans in recent times.

[BDunnell]

And here is my question. In terms of championship race wins, which driver is the most successful university graduate in F1 history?

[Rollo]

And here is my question. In terms of championship race wins, which driver is the most successful university graduate in F1 history?

Michael Schumacher holds a mechanical engineering degree, so it's got to be him doesn't it?

[AndyRAC]

And a bit of a sad reflection on the lack of involvement by current or even recent top-line F1 drivers in Le Mans in recent times.

Is Schumacher the only current F1 driver to have driven at Le Mans? I have a feeling he is....(just remembered; Mark Webber in the Mercedes flying through the air)
It might help if Le Mans and Canada didn't clash - a ridiculous situation! However, the days of versatile drivers are over, sadly.

[BDunnell]

Michael Schumacher holds a mechanical engineering degree, so it's got to be him doesn't it?

I don't believe he does, does he?

[BDunnell]

Is Schumacher the only current F1 driver to have driven at Le Mans? I have a feeling he is....(just remembered; Mark Webber in the Mercedes flying through the air)
It might help if Le Mans and Canada didn't clash - a ridiculous situation! However, the days of versatile drivers are over, sadly.

More like the days of them being allowed to be versatile are over.

[D28]

More like the days of them being allowed to be versatile are over.

Olivier Panis is a F1 winner still racing with a good team at Le Mans. He finished 5 for Oreca Peugeot last week, he could do it.
Can't think of any others.

[D28]

And here is my question. In terms of championship race wins, which driver is the most successful university graduate in F1 history?

A wild guess, Tony Brooks was a dentist with 6 wins. Could he be the one?

[Ranger]

Michael Schumacher holds a mechanical engineering degree, so it's got to be him doesn't it?

I very much doubt that. Link please.

[BDunnell]

A wild guess, Tony Brooks was a dentist with 6 wins. Could he be the one?

That's the answer I was looking for, certainly, given that Schumacher doesn't have a degree.

[AndyRAC]

More like the days of them being allowed to be versatile are over.

Well yes actually, that is true.
That's why the likes of Rossi, Loeb, Raikkonen, etc who have tried different disciplines are to be applauded.

[BDunnell]

Well yes actually, that is true.
That's why the likes of Rossi, Loeb, Raikkonen, etc who have tried different disciplines are to be applauded.

And Kubica, despite what happened.

[D-Type]

And here is my question. In terms of championship race wins, which driver is the most successful university graduate in F1 history?
My immediate thought was Farina - but he only had 5 wins (and a Championship!). ;(

[D28]

My immediate thought was Farina - but he only had 5 wins (and a Championship!). ;(

Right. I find it amazing that we have to go back 55-60 years for the answer. There have been graduate drivers, Mark Donohue and Jim Hall, just not as sucessful as Farina and Brooks. Can't think of many others. Did Bruce McLaren ever study engineering formally?

[D28]

Which countries have produced World Drivers' Champions, without ever hosting a F1 Grand Prix. I am not thinking of Scotland as my answer here.

[Ranger]

Which countries have produced World Drivers' Champions, without ever hosting a F1 Grand Prix. I am not thinking of Scotland as my answer here.

Finland and New Zealand.

[D28]

Finland and New Zealand.

That is correct, the first one obvious, the other maybe not.

[D28]

Who has the claim to longest interval between first, and last, major Grand Prix wins. Name and no of years please.

[D-Type]

Louis Chiron
Italian GP 1928, GP de France 1949 - or if that doesn't count as major, the GP de l'ACF 1947

[Rollo]

Is it Michael Schumacher?

His first win was the 1992 Belgian Grand Prix and his last win was the 2006 Chinese Grand Prix.
16 Years, 1 Month, 2 Days later.

[D28]

Louis Chiron
Italian GP 1928, GP de France 1949 - or if that doesn't count as major, the GP de l'ACF 1947

Correct, that is who I was thinking of. A valid claim could also be made for Luigi Fagioli, Coppa Ciano 1930-French GP 1951.
I feel Chiron has the better claim because, he won several lesser GP before the Monza race, and some in 1927. I am not sure how major the Coppa Ciano really was. Finally, Fagioli shared the French win with Fangio, though he did complete 55 of 77 laps.
I would say both men achieved remarkable longtime driving careers. Their records are unlikely to be bettered.

[D-Type]

Let's see now...

What was the first turbocharged car to take pole position in a World Championship race?

[D28]

Let's see now...

What was the first turbocharged car to take pole position in a World Championship race?

Renault, JP Jabouille South African GP 1979.

[Rollo]

Let's see now...

What was the first turbocharged car to take pole position in a World Championship race?

Fred Agabashian - 1952 Indianapolis 500 - The Cummins Diesel Special

[D-Type]

Fred Agabashian - 1952 Indianapolis 500 - The Cummins Diesel Special
Correct! Your question

People tend to overlook the Indianapolis 500

[Rollo]

Once is interesting, twice is notable, three times is bonkers.

For three years in succession, one track hosted wins by three totally radical cars. What was the track; why were the three cars notable?

[52Paddy]

I'm going to guess Kyalami, one being the 1978 win by the ground effect Lotus.

[D28]

Once is interesting, twice is notable, three times is bonkers.

For three years in succession, one track hosted wins by three totally radical cars. What was the track; why were the three cars notable?

I'll say Swedish Grand Prix, Anderstorp, 1976-78. winners were Tyrell 6 wheeler, Ligier-Matra and the Brabham-Alfa Romeo Fan car respectively.
The Ligier-Matra was a first win for totally french entry, chassis, engine, driver (J Laffitte) and sponsor (Gitanes)

[Rollo]

I'll say Swedish Grand Prix, Anderstorp, 1976-78. winners were Tyrell 6 wheeler, Ligier-Matra and the Brabham-Alfa Romeo Fan car respectively.
The Ligier-Matra was a first win for totally french entry, chassis, engine, driver (J Laffitte) and sponsor (Gitanes)

Bork Bork Bork! We have a winner.

I was reading through back copies The Times on microfiche at the NSW State Library looking for something which Thatcher had said about the Politburo of the USSR and accidentally found Scheckter's comments at the end of the '76 season in which he declared the Tyrrell P34 "a piece of junk".

I thought it odd that the Swedish Grand Prix should have not only a win by a six-wheeled car but the two which followed was just icing on the cake.

Next Question.

[D28]

Peter Ryan was the 1st Canadian to qualify for a F1 race, ( including all F1 races), 1961 US Grand Prix. Who was the 2nd?
Name and details.

[D28]

Peter Ryan was the 1st Canadian to qualify for a F1 race, ( including all F1 races), 1961 US Grand Prix. Who was the 2nd?
Name and details.

Since there have been no takers, for a few days, I'll give the answer.

It is Ludwig Heimrath, premier Canadian racer of the 60s and early 70s. He had a Porsche factory outing for the 1962 Pau Grand Prix (non-championship). He was competitive in all types of racing, sportscars, CAn Am, Indy Cars and GTs, mostly in North America.
Next question, anyone.

[52Paddy]

Since there have been no takers, for a few days, I'll give the answer.

It is Ludwig Heimrath, premier Canadian racer of the 60s and early 70s. He had a Porsche factory outing for the 1962 Pau Grand Prix (non-championship). He was competitive in all types of racing, sportscars, CAn Am, Indy Cars and GTs, mostly in North America.
Next question, anyone.

Interesting - I did a bit of googling a found two guys who raced in 1963 but, if I use the internet, I don't normally feel privileged in providing an answer. Would have been wrong anyway :p :

Which famous F1 personality commandeered tanks for the Royal Scots Greys?

[Rollo]

Would this person have been a part-time scrambler and advertiser?

[steveaki13]

I thought of Murray as well, but couldn't think of any hard questions to ask so didn't post in case it was right.

[Rollo]

I thought of Murray as well

Unless I'm very much mistaken.

Is it time to stop the startwatch yet?

[steveaki13]

Unless I'm very much mistaken.

Is it time to stop the startwatch yet?

I feel I want to say yes you are very much mistaken and that your post completly wrong except for the fact its right. ;)

[Rollo]

It's hard to believe but Narain Karthikeyan of all people holds a unique record in Formula One in the modern era (barring the Indianapolis 500). What is it?

[D28]

OK Karthikeyan is the 1st driver to finish 24 in a WC F1 race, all racers being classified as finishers.

He is also the 1st to be classified 23rd, given similar strict definitions.
All told, not a very distinctive record, but a record nonetheless.

[Mintexmemory]

Which famous F1 personality commandeered tanks for the Royal Scots Greys?
Murray commanded a tank, Bernie probably commandeered them for a suitable profit! ;-)

[D28]

What was the first rear-engined car to start a F1 World Championship round, where, when?

[Marbles]

I probably miss by a mile but I'll take a stab. Cooper - Monaco - 1958.

[D28]

I probably miss by a mile but I'll take a stab. Cooper - Monaco - 1958.

Quite a bit before that. Moss had already won the openning 1958 race in a Cooper-Climax by then.

[52Paddy]

Murray is the correct answer from earlier on. Sorry for disappearing.

[D-Type]

I think we all realised it was Muddy Talker - but nobody had a question ready ...


Edit: Typos

[D-Type]

What was the first rear-engined car to start a F1 World Championship round, where, when?
Harry Schell with a Cooper-JAP at Monaco in 1951

[D28]

Harry Schell with a Cooper-JAP at Monaco in 1951

Close but not quite right, give it another shot.

[D-Type]

Aaargh! :angryfire

It was 1950 wasn't it?

[D28]

Aaargh! :angryfire

It was 1950 wasn't it?

Correct. Schell entered in the F3 race, changed to an 1100 cc engine, and wangled an entry into the F1 race, without a qualifying time. Things were run a little more casually in those days. He went out in the massive shunt on lap 1, so how competitive he was remains a mystery.

[D-Type]

Thanks.

Everybody knows the Ferrari "prancing horse" or cavallino rampante. When did it first appear on a competition car?

[D28]

Thanks.

Everybody knows the Ferrari "prancing horse" or cavallino rampante. When did it first appear on a competition car?

I believe Enzo Ferrari used it on his personal race cars as early as... 1922?

[D-Type]

You're on the right lines but a little early.

What I have is:

In 1923 Enzo Ferrari won the Circuito del Savio at Ravenna. This impressed Enrico Baracca, father of Francesco Baracca, an Italian flying ace who had been killed in the war whose emblem on his aircraft was a black prancing horse. Ferrari says that Francesco's mother, Contessa Paolina told him"Ferrari, put my son's prancing horse on your cars. It will bring you luck".
Ferrari then added the yellow background for Modena and some years later adopted it as the emblem of the Scuderia Ferrari.
The writer goes on to say

Although Lurani states that the emblem, fashioned in the form of a shield bearing the Scuderia Ferrari's initials, was first used in 19XX, in fact the evidence is that tits initial appearance on the team's cars was on the 8C 2300 Alfas that finished fiirst and second in the XXXX race on 9 July 19XX


Either year will do.

[D28]

Although Lurani states that the emblem, fashioned in the form of a shield bearing the Scuderia Ferrari's initials, was first used in 19XX, in fact the evidence is that tits initial appearance on the team's cars was on the 8C 2300 Alfas that finished fiirst and second in the XXXX race on 9 July 19XX

It must have taken Enzo a few years to get around to putting the badge on a car. Id say the 1932 24 Hr Spa. could be the first time.

[D-Type]

:up: That's the one - the 1932 Spa 24 hrs.

[D28]

Anyone care to post a question?

[D28]

Of the World Champions of the 1960s, name the ones with Can-Am wins (1 or more) to their credit.

[Ranger]

Of the World Champions of the 1960s, name the ones with Can-Am wins (1 or more) to their credit.

Denny Hulme is one, don't know the others off the top of my head.

[alangiddins]

Hi all, I am new to this but I hope you may be able to help me. I am looking for the results of the 1984 middle east Rally Championship which was run in Jordan, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE and Oman. Ideally I would like the entrants for each rally and results per rally. Can anyone help? Thanks Alan

[52Paddy]

Hi all, I am new to this but I hope you may be able to help me. I am looking for the results of the 1984 middle east Rally Championship which was run in Jordan, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE and Oman. Ideally I would like the entrants for each rally and results per rally. Can anyone help? Thanks Alan

Ask in the rally forum. There used to be a thread there called "Rally History" which dealt with this type of thing. Not sure how active it is these days.

[52Paddy]

Hi all, I am new to this but I hope you may be able to help me. I am looking for the results of the 1984 middle east Rally Championship which was run in Jordan, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE and Oman. Ideally I would like the entrants for each rally and results per rally. Can anyone help? Thanks Alan

Ask in the rally forum. There used to be a thread there called "Rally History" which dealt with this type of thing. Not sure how active it is these days.

[Steve Boyd]

Ask in the rally forum. There used to be a thread there called "Rally History" which dealt with this type of thing. Not sure how active it is these days.
Rally History (part III) is still active and can be found in both the Rally Forum and the Motorsport History Forum, or click here:
http://www.motorsportforums.com/history/128974-rally-history-part-iii.html