Putin and Georgia

[Hondo]

It's coming. I'm telling you it's coming. Putin is going to snatch Georgia back into Russia. His ground work is nearly complete.

USA-He has given the USA all airspace and ground route concessions they asked for to frolic in Afgahistan. He would like to see the USA comitted in a ground war in Iran but after seeing what a complete boob Obama is, he is not terribly worried about the USA. No threat.

Britain-Britain has been assured that Russia will not let it run out of natural gas this winter. Friend.

Canada-Russia is now buying Canadian Dollars as a safe and respected currency. Friend.

EU-not a military power, much less a superpower. Not stupid.

NATO-crippled by Obama and the UK, will view it as an internal civil war and not the business of NATO in a pure sense. Probably questioning the need for NATO with the EU in place. Want's out.

Iran-will trust Putin right up to the point he turns his back on them. Pigeons.

The UN-will issue a stern protest, maybe 2 of them and threaten Russia with sanctions if they don't withdrawl all their troops from Georgia by 3417 AD. An Ethiopian, Somali, Haitian peacekeeping force will be offered. Impotent.

China-has something now they didn't have back in the '70s when China and Russia didn't see things eye to eye. China has stuff. Stuff takes time and money to build and once you get used to having stuff, you want to keep it. China will view the whole thing as a border dispute and expect the same consideration from Russia in the future. Neutral.

Putin will not leave power until Georgia is back in the fold, and he's gonna get it.

[Tomi]

And this fairy tale you made up all by you self? Impressive, lol.
The tragedy is that theese past soviet countries seriously belive usa will help if they get attacked.

[Eki]

Maybe Georgia learned the first time. Bush didn't help them, so they probably won't be counting on Obama.

Fiero, Putin isn't the President anymore, so you're barking at the wrong tree (geez, and they accuse me of being obsessed by Bush),

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think Putin swings more lead there than the PM should be in Russia. I have no problem believing the scenario except why the heck would anyone WANT Georgia? I don't believe there is oil there...and why else would Russia want the country?

Unlike my Finnish friends there, I find the scenario you describe plausable to a point...if the Russians truly can cook up a reason to take it, and sell that to their people, then those domino's will go down in that manner.

[BDunnell]

And what is anyone to do about this? Because of the way 'we' welcomed the embracing of Russia's own form of capitalism, nothing. Maybe if our own leaders were prepared to be more critical of unfettered private enterprise, maybe if our own business people were unwilling to invest in a country so riddled with corruption from top to bottom on those grounds, we wouldn't be in such a mess with regard to the reasonable international community's stance on Russia.

(By the way, I fully expect this thread to end up including at least one genuinely serious attempt to persuade us that there is one American 'politician' who does understand the menace of Russia on the grounds of alleged geographical proximity, and am surprised this hasn't come up yet...)

[Mark in Oshawa]

And what is anyone to do about this? Because of the way 'we' welcomed the embracing of Russia's own form of capitalism, nothing. Maybe if our own leaders were prepared to be more critical of unfettered private enterprise, maybe if our own business people were unwilling to invest in a country so riddled with corruption from top to bottom on those grounds, we wouldn't be in such a mess with regard to the reasonable international community's stance on Russia.

(By the way, I fully expect this thread to end up including at least one genuinely serious attempt to persuade us that there is one American 'politician' who does understand the menace of Russia on the grounds of alleged geographical proximity, and am surprised this hasn't come up yet...)

No one will stop Russia if they do invade Ben. That is Fiero's point. That is why it is plausable. Russia does things when they know they can....

[BDunnell]

No one will stop Russia if they do invade Ben. That is Fiero's point. That is why it is plausable. Russia does things when they know they can....

Where do I say anything in disagreement with that? I was stating how the conditions for such an event have, in part, been made possible as a result of the attitudes of Western leaders to Russia since the ostensible end of Communism.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Where do I say anything in disagreement with that? I was stating how the conditions for such an event have, in part, been made possible as a result of the attitudes of Western leaders to Russia since the ostensible end of Communism.

In many ways, the world is still held hostage to this nation. They have not lost this thirst for empire in many ways...

[Tomi]

No one will stop Russia if they do invade Ben. That is Fiero's point. That is why it is plausable. Russia does things when they know they can....

Thats true, any idea from where theese ex soviet countries have got the idea that they would be helped?

[Hondo]

Maybe Georgia learned the first time. Bush didn't help them, so they probably won't be counting on Obama.

Fiero, Putin isn't the President anymore, so you're barking at the wrong tree (geez, and they accuse me of being obsessed by Bush),

I know he isn't the prez anymore but lots of sources believes he still pushes the buttons.

Difference is, I like Putin.

[Hondo]

In many ways, the world is still held hostage to this nation. They have not lost this thirst for empire in many ways...

In most ways the world is held hostage by power, economic control, and size. Russia is far from the only one holding puppet strings in their hands. Russia and China are just smarter than we are. Even Haiti is getting ready to throw us out. Oh, they'll keep the money, but will run their own aid programs.

[BDunnell]

In most ways the world is held hostage by power, economic control, and size. Russia is far from the only one holding puppet strings in their hands. Russia and China are just smarter than we are. Even Haiti is getting ready to throw us out. Oh, they'll keep the money, but will run their own aid programs.

So 'smart' equals 'institutionally corrupt from top to bottom'? And I am a little surprised by your apparent criticism of how the world is 'held hostage' by 'economic control'. Whose fault is that?

[RusH]

What would Russia do if we took back Panama.

Nothing.

Besides, Georgia`s leader is a fruit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDFVQ-H7V-U

[Tomi]

What would Russia do if we took back Panama.

Nothing.

Besides, Georgia`s leader is a fruit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDFVQ-H7V-U

Lol, could be dangerous to sit beside him when have dinner, what a dork.

[Mark in Oshawa]

In most ways the world is held hostage by power, economic control, and size. Russia is far from the only one holding puppet strings in their hands. Russia and China are just smarter than we are. Even Haiti is getting ready to throw us out. Oh, they'll keep the money, but will run their own aid programs.

Russia and China are two of the most corrupt large nations on earth. They look after no interest but their own EVER unless there is something in it down the road for being nice. Now some might say the USA could be lumped in with that, but I don't think so. The Americans have their agenda for sure, but it is a more benign form of trying to get their way. They will trade with the world, and while they may like to win, they at least understand any trade should be benefitting both parties. The Russians and Chinese? Well they may let you think that until they can find a way to stab you in the back later on. The Georgians are not fooled by any of this, even if their President is a loon. That is ok, he is their choice, not Putin's.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Thats true, any idea from where theese ex soviet countries have got the idea that they would be helped?

So you condemn the USA for trying to impose democracy and enforce UN sanctions, but it is their fault for telling a country like Georgia they might help them with the Russians? So the Americans are wrong to intervene or are they wrong to NOT intervene? Make up your mind Tomi, because right now you want it both ways.

The Georgians are not stupid. They know the US cannot intervene unless we want the nuclear triggers at the fingertips of the Russian and US leaders. It is no different then the Russians encouraging the Cubans to put nuclear weapons 90 miles from Miami. You don't go into another superpower's backyard without their tacit ok..and in this case, it aint happening and the Georgians know this.

[Hondo]

So 'smart' equals 'institutionally corrupt from top to bottom'? And I am a little surprised by your apparent criticism of how the world is 'held hostage' by 'economic control'. Whose fault is that?

That wasn't criticism at all, merely an acknowledgement that any country strong in one or more of those areas can easily, and do, hold others hostage. I was answering Mark. My reference to "smart" by Russia and China is the way they minimize being caught by their own hypocrisy. They do what they want within their own borders and don't give a damn what outsiders think. China is untried but Putin understands, truly understands power, how to use it, when to use it, and when to leave it snarling in the background. Putin understands there are repercussions to the use of power and accepts them.

America may be my country, but we do some really stupid things that are clearly hypocritical and destroys more and more of our credibility after each event. Everytime the USA does something by force of arms, in the name of human rights, I cringe. If human rights are that important, then we need to go kick the crap out of China until they see things our way. We aren't going to to that. We can't afford to, not nearly enough people in this country care enough about Chinese lifestyle to go die to improve it, the population of Canada would triple overnight, and most of all, we would get hurt really, really bad. Russia and China don't bother trying to add nobility to their causes. They act, when they feel they have to, in their own best interests and make no apologies for their actions.

Along the lines of leaning on countries comes my very own (I think its my own, I don't recall ever seeing it anywhere else) Famous Fiero Quote:

Any independent nation, large or small, ceases to be, in reality, independent when it can no longer feed it's population by means found within it's own borders.

I wonder if I'll get called to Norway?

[Tomi]

So you condemn the USA for trying to impose democracy and enforce UN sanctions, but it is their fault for telling a country like Georgia they might help them with the Russians?

What i mean is that it wrong to make those countries to belive there is help on way if there is conflicts, if there is not, or atleast tell them the differense between help and might help.

[F1boat]

IMO Russians should focus its enormous resources for improving the life conditions in its country and especially the demographic problem. Not making more wars.

[Hondo]

And this fairy tale you made up all by you self? Impressive, lol.
The tragedy is that theese past soviet countries seriously belive usa will help if they get attacked.

After watching Obama for a year, you'd think they would know better by now.

[Tomi]

After watching Obama for a year, you'd think they would know better by now.

Dont know, but the problem in your foreign policy is that there is no continiutie, the new president dont see him self responsible for what earlier presidents promises, thats why the Saudis are fed up with u also.
The only exception is your policy towards israel.

[Hondo]

Problems like that are going away. Everybody, including Israel, is telling us to get stuffed nowadays. We are just a big third world country at this point.

[veeten]

After watching Obama for a year, you'd think they would know better by now.

or, better yet, let's ask the Kurds. They have a more better experience with this... :dozey:

[Hondo]

or, better yet, let's ask the Kurds. They have a more better experience with this... :dozey:

"protecting the Kurds" involved kicking Saddam and Iraq around.

We are not going to protect the Finns by kicking Putin and Russia around. The Finns will be on their own.

We are not going to protect Taiwan by kicking China around. Taiwan will be on their own.

It's one thing to stand up for the oppressed when you can quite easily stomp their oppressor for them. It's quite another thing to do it when they can stomp you right back.

We lack the power and the will to engage Russia or China on a battlefield that does not affect this country directly. In addition the hand of governments and standards of living are gradually being blended to where there isn't much to choose between them, much less die for.

[Tomi]

We are not going to protect the Finns by kicking Putin and Russia around. The Finns will be on their own.

Lol, thanks, no need for any protection, Russia is a bit too tough for you anyway.

[Mark in Oshawa]

What i mean is that it wrong to make those countries to belive there is help on way if there is conflicts, if there is not, or atleast tell them the differense between help and might help.

Those countries know. You think the President of Georgia cant read through the diplospeak of leaders to know Obama isn't' coming to the resuce when the T-72's roll over the border?

Tomi, what you have to grasp, as Fiero has pointed out is that many nations are inconsistent in their protection of human rights and the like. The USA tries at times to pull that off, but they too look the other way when the price of defending those ideals would be too expensive. The American people actually don't like war much, and I am sure no one is really gungho to send the US Marines and Army to Georgia....and I KNOW the Georgians know this....and so does Putin. So when the tanks roll, remember, everyone knows the USA aint coming to help, so there is no point in condeming them for not being there,while ignorning the reality that the Russians have NO business being there either.

[Mark in Oshawa]

We lack the power and the will to engage Russia or China on a battlefield that does not affect this country directly. In addition the hand of governments and standards of living are gradually being blended to where there isn't much to choose between them, much less die for.

The US lacks the will to fight a large war with Russia and/or China because the consequences are too high. I still think that the best defense the US has in the world is helping the world reach a higher standard of living, because you are less willing to be goaded into war if you have something at home to lose. Americans are willing to die for causes worth fighting for, but not just simple conquest. When Iraq seemed to be all about the conquest, people turned against the war. Russians and Chinese are likely going to be the same.....and it is the one thing the Russians will have holding them in check. People there are not as naive or under the thumb of Moscow when it was the USSR.

[Eki]

So when the tanks roll, remember, everyone knows the USA aint coming to help, so there is no point in condeming them for not being there,while ignorning the reality that the Russians have NO business being there either.
Actually, Georgia is a bigger threat to Russians than Iraq ever was to Americans.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Actually, Georgia is a bigger threat to Russians than Iraq ever was to Americans.

Eki..really? That is weak..but since we don't want to go down the Iraq road with you again...we wont bother rebutting this silly statement.

[Eki]

Eki..really? That is weak..but since we don't want to go down the Iraq road with you again...we wont bother rebutting this silly statement.
Let me explain. Georgia is in close proximity to Russia and there is a large Russian minority in Georgia, Iraq is not in close proximity to the US and there is not a large American minority in Iraq (at least there wasn't until the US sent more than 100,000 Americans over there).

[Mark in Oshawa]

Let me explain. Georgia is in close proximity to Russia and there is a large Russian minority in Georgia, Iraq is not in close proximity to the US and there is not a large American minority in Iraq (at least there wasn't until the US sent more than 100,000 Americans over there).
Let me explain. Georgia has never threatened to invade, nor does it have UN sanctions against it for possible WMD's. (Don't let the fact Hussein didn't have any dissuade you, in 2001 the world thought he DID). I don't need Eki's book of Geography to figure this out Eki, I can grasp what your dig is. Again, we are not talking about Iraq. Stay with the tour...this Is BIG Russia invading little tiny Georgia for no reason other than Georgia USED to be in the USSR and chose NOT to want to STAY in a union with Russia. THAT is the topic. QUIT hijacking it.

[RusH]

Maybe a little advice is in order for the Georgians, play nice in Abkhazia and South Ossetia....both of which do not only have a Russian majority, but have declared independence from Georgia. Saakashvili may have to eat his tie whole if he fires the first shot....like his troops did last time.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Maybe a little advice is in order for the Georgians, play nice in Abkhazia and South Ossetia....both of which do not only have a Russian majority, but have declared independence from Georgia. Saakashvili may have to eat his tie whole if he fires the first shot....like his troops did last time.
Oh of course, because Russia is just an innocent and helpless nation while the Georgians are just a military superpower.

[Hondo]

Maybe a little advice is in order for the Georgians, play nice in Abkhazia and South Ossetia....both of which do not only have a Russian majority, but have declared independence from Georgia. Saakashvili may have to eat his tie whole if he fires the first shot....like his troops did last time.

An often forgotten fact over here due to biased reporting. Most of the USA were aware of the Russian Invasion but not that Georgia had actually started the thing.

You always want to be careful in your selection of whom to shoot at.

[Mark in Oshawa]

An often forgotten fact over here due to biased reporting. Most of the USA were aware of the Russian Invasion but not that Georgia had actually started the thing.

You always want to be careful in your selection of whom to shoot at.

Still doesn't excuse the Russians for marching in, shooting up the joint and then pulling back out. I agree the Georgians are not babes in the woods..but this is their little corner of the world where they cant along within their own borders. The Russians always seem to feel if any Slav they like is being "perscueted" they are duty bound to meddle.

[Jag_Warrior]

We lack the power and the will to engage Russia or China on a battlefield that does not affect this country directly.

And if we'd had that as a consistent foreign policy, we wouldn't be in the s###hole we're in now! WTF should we engage Russia over Georgia, anymore than Russia should have engaged us over Nicaragua?

Maybe, now that we're dialing (China) for dollars, the U.S. and its citizens will stop thinking of us as the Policemen of the World. And the countries that are devoting their revenues to improving domestic GDP and infrastructure will have to either spend that mouldy money to protect themselves... or learn to speak another language.

We can't control our border with Mexico, to keep every drug runner in the Western hemisphere from taking over our major cities. And we're supposed to give a crap about what Russia does with Georgia? The only Georgia that I'm concerned about has Atlanta as its capital city.

Besides, maybe Putin ain't so bad. I heard he was a truswothy fellow. I forgot who said this, but it sounds good. ;)


"I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straight forward and trustworthy and we had a very good dialogue."

[Hondo]

Still doesn't excuse the Russians for marching in, shooting up the joint and then pulling back out. I agree the Georgians are not babes in the woods..but this is their little corner of the world where they cant along within their own borders. The Russians always seem to feel if any Slav they like is being "perscueted" they are duty bound to meddle.

If it's ok for Israel to go into Gaza and level the place because they are taking fire from the area, then it's OK for Russia to march into Georgia when they take fire from the place.

These are pure facts on the tables arguments, If someone shoots at me, I'm coming after them. If 3 people shoot at me, I'm gonna warn them to not do it again. If 7 people shoot at me, I'm going to make sure I stay behind something substancial. If 50 people are shooting at me, I'm going to very politely ask that they limit their gunfire after 10:00pm.

[Eki]

The Russians always seem to feel if any Slav they like is being "perscueted" they are duty bound to meddle.

They seldom use military force though. For example the Russian minority in Estonia doesn't have things as good as the Swedish speaking minority in Finland or the French speaking minority in Canada, yet Russia has not invaded Estonia.

[Easy Drifter]

And off on another tangent goes Eki.

[Tomi]

The American people actually don't like war much, and I am sure no one is really gungho to send the US Marines and Army to Georgia....and I KNOW the Georgians know this....and so does Putin.

Yes for sure they know that now, but when the last conflict was on, I remember their president was using very rough words and expected help.

[Camelopard]

And off on another tangent goes Eki.

Why so?

What Eki said seems like a perfectly valid point to me.

[Mark in Oshawa]

They seldom use military force though. For example the Russian minority in Estonia doesn't have things as good as the Swedish speaking minority in Finland or the French speaking minority in Canada, yet Russia has not invaded Estonia.

Seldom use military force? I guess Hungary in 56 or Prague in 68 were just aberrations as well?

AS for the French Speaking minority, Eki the only people in this country who think they have it bad are the separatists, but trust me, Quebec does what it wants and has for the last 45 years. They start talking of separation again, we might have a refrendum to kick them out....lol

[Eki]

Seldom use military force? I guess Hungary in 56 or Prague in 68 were just aberrations as well?


We are talking about Russia, not the Soviet Union. Besides, I don't think Hungary and Prague were the Soviets fighting against Hungarian and Czheckoslovakian military and government but against rebelling civilians, so I don't think they count as wars.

[Mark in Oshawa]

We are talking about Russia, not the Soviet Union. Besides, I don't think Hungary and Prague were the Soviets fighting against Hungarian and Czheckoslovakian military and government but against rebelling civilians, so I don't think they count as wars.

Rebelling civilians who wanted to dump the communists, and in case you forgot, the USSR was for the most part RUSSIA. I realize Belarus and the Ukraine and Georgia were part of the USSR, but anyone paying attention would note that the Russians dominated that "union" at the point of a gun. You now going to justify the USSR's meddling in Hungary or Czechslovokia? It was wrong, just like invading Georgia to "protect" the Russian minority there is a little weak. Isn't that the excuse Hitler used for the Anchluss?

[Eki]

Isn't that the excuse Hitler used for the Anchluss?
Yes, but he couldn't accuse them of WMDs and terrorism, so he had to find some other excuse.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Yes, but he couldn't accuse them of WMDs and terrorism, so he had to find some other excuse.

They were German...just like Russia's excuse to go into Ossetia is that they are are hard done by Russians....

[Eki]

Rebelling civilians who wanted to dump the communists, and in case you forgot, the USSR was for the most part RUSSIA. I realize Belarus and the Ukraine and Georgia were part of the USSR, but anyone paying attention would note that the Russians dominated that "union" at the point of a gun.
Stalin was Georgian.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Stalin was Georgian.

He was also a psychopath and a narcissist. He went to Moscow to run the USSR and was one of those who would take power whereever he would get it. I am sure though that if he had just led Georgia and tried to pull them out of the USSR, the Russian led USSR would have cleaned him out in about 10 minutes....

[F1boat]

IMO USSR was USSR, an evil, transnational empire, ruled by bloodthirsty tyrants. All countries, including Russia, suffered under the terror there.

[Mark in Oshawa]

IMO USSR was USSR, an evil, transnational empire, ruled by bloodthirsty tyrants. All countries, including Russia, suffered under the terror there.

The people of Russia suffered....but those same people are now led by a government that again wants to meddle militarily in Georgia.

[Eki]

The people of Russia suffered....but those same people are now led by a government that again wants to meddle militarily in Georgia.
And the Russian people are behind them. They've gotten what they've voted for. We are lucky that they wanted Putin and Medvedev instead of Zhirinovsky:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Zhirinovsky

[Mark in Oshawa]

And the Russian people are behind them. They've gotten what they've voted for. We are lucky that they wanted Putin and Medvedev instead of Zhirinovsky:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Zhirinovsky

lol..I cannot dispute that one Eki....ole Zhirinovsky would have been even a bigger wild card...

[Hondo]

I don't see Putin as a wild card. He is, and he knows it, the proper leader for the Russian people. He is trying to improve the lives of the Russian people but also has international concerns to deal with. He will not be made to suffer the fool for anyone.

Another Fiero off the wall theory. Congress is now demanding a full accounting of AIG's bailout money. When Bush, and then everybody else jumped on the we have to do this now or the world is going to hell bandwagon, we common folk saw no need to rush things. Our representatives went totally against our wishes on the 1st bailout, and passed it. AIG got a huge chunk of it. Who got what and how much they got was to be protected from public inquiry. Now the Fed is raising "national Security" issues over telling who got what.

I think Putin got on the phone with Bush and said "We are holding x billions of dollars in your worthless paper securities bundles. You have 5 days to buy it all back, in cash plus interest, or there is going to be trouble and you won't like it." AIG is a big international company. I wonder if they were the conduit for Russia's buy out money?

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't see Putin as a wild card. He is, and he knows it, the proper leader for the Russian people. He is trying to improve the lives of the Russian people but also has international concerns to deal with. He will not be made to suffer the fool for anyone.

Another Fiero off the wall theory. Congress is now demanding a full accounting of AIG's bailout money. When Bush, and then everybody else jumped on the we have to do this now or the world is going to hell bandwagon, we common folk saw no need to rush things. Our representatives went totally against our wishes on the 1st bailout, and passed it. AIG got a huge chunk of it. Who got what and how much they got was to be protected from public inquiry. Now the Fed is raising "national Security" issues over telling who got what.

I think Putin got on the phone with Bush and said "We are holding x billions of dollars in your worthless paper securities bundles. You have 5 days to buy it all back, in cash plus interest, or there is going to be trouble and you won't like it." AIG is a big international company. I wonder if they were the conduit for Russia's buy out money?

Interesting theory...