And your point is?

[Hondo]

Muslim police condemn terror policy

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/


Muslim police officers condemned the Government's anti-terrorism strategy as an "affront to British values" which had led to an upsurge in Islamophobia.

( Personally, I would have thought all the nonsense and hooliganism done in the name of Islam, by those claiming to be muslim, would have led to an upsurge of Islamophobia.)

The National Association of Muslim Police said the Prevent strategy - designed to stop the spread of violent extremism - was "stigmatising" Muslims by focusing on "so-called Islamic extremism", The Daily Telegraph said.

In a submission to the Commons Communities and Local Government Committee - posted on the committee's website - it said that the focus on Muslim communities ignored the extremist threat from far-right groups.

(y'all are taking all the press space. Do you have any idea how hard it is for any self-respecting extremist groups to get any air time anymore?)

"It can be argued that there is a connection in the rise of Islamophobia and our Prevent programme as it feeds on the stereotypes that the media and some right wing parties promote, i.e. all Muslims are evil and non trustworthy," it said.

( Since there seems to be no common consensus within Islam about what is right and what is wrong and very little cooperation within the Islamic community along the lines of identifying and stopping the extremist elements, that seems like a reasonable manner in which to proceed. At least it's not a policy of "the only good muslim is a dead muslim", a one time favorite in dealing with the American Indian.

"Our British system is a model for the world to follow, yet we have embarked on a journey that has put this very core of British values under real threat.

(Britain's willingness to indulge everybody that wants to do their own thing, their own way, along with their immigration policies is what is putting the very core of British values under real threat.

"The hatred towards Muslims has grown to a level that defies all logic and is an affront to British values.

(People that blow up busses and wander around with explosives in their underwear are an affront to British values.)

"The climate is such that Muslims are subject to daily abuse in a manner that would be ridiculed by Britain, were this to occur anywhere else.

(Lots of people, races, ethnic groups, and religions undergo daily abuse and survive. It's part of being alive. Just ask any pom...

"We must not diminish our British values further by continuing to allow such behaviour and policies to continue unchecked."

(Are you somehow suggesting that marching through city streets demanding the country submit itself to Sharia Law enhances British values?)

The association, which has more than 2,000 members, said there was a "sense of frustration" among Muslims that their concerns were not being heard and warned that "some serious damage" may have already occurred.

( A few lines above, you where whining about stereotypes, evil, and non trustworthy and here you making veiled threats for exactly that kind of thing If the country doesn't roll over and kiss your butt. You might want to rethink this whole deal.)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I think their point is that not all Muslims are to blame for terroist attacks. Blaming all Muslims is like blaming all Christians for the IRA attacks.

[Hondo]

I think their point is that not all Muslims are to blame for terroist attacks. Blaming all Muslims is like blaming all Christians for the IRA attacks.
Everybody already knows that. That wasn't their point at all. Their point was there is an ever increasing suspicion of all things Islam, including them. That makes them feel unloved and uncomfortable. They could appeal to the Islamic extremist groups to knock it off but the extremists will tell them to get stuffed. So instead they will lay their tearful, weepy plight at the feet of the government hoping to regain their self respect when the government caves in and makes it illegal to suspect, detain, or question a muslim until after the muslims underwear explodes. They might even get a check from the government or NHS for the mental anquish they have had to endure.

[Rudy Tamasz]

If they wear uniform they must shut the eff up or look for employment elsewhere.

[Hazell B]

"The hatred towards Muslims has grown to a level that defies all logic and is an affront to British values.

"The climate is such that Muslims are subject to daily abuse in a manner that would be ridiculed by Britain, were this to occur anywhere else.



I wholeheartedly agree with the first comment. Out for a meal the other night, our company kept saying things like "them Islam b*****ds ...." and so on. One rang a taxi, got perfectly good service yet finished the call and said to me "F*****g Paki Muslim on the phone" and rolled her eyes as if she'd been threatened rather than aided. It was disgusting, yet utterly normal these days from what I've seen. Our company was a family based near Leeds, so far more used than me to seeing minority faces. Their comments were viewed as perfectly okay by those around us. Nobody batted an eyelid except myself and my partner.

As for the next comment, I half agree. Not seen any direct abuse myself, but having heard how people talk behind the backs of Muslims .....
But as Fiero said, the rest of us get it daily too. In my case it's being a redhead, not fat, horse owner or 4x4 driver. This morning I was well and truely ribbed for not necking an injured pidgeon a dog brought to my shop, instead fetching an auction porter to do it. "What kind of country person are you? Just kill the bloody thing!" and so on. I shrug. It's life.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I wholeheartedly agree with the first comment. Out for a meal the other night, our company kept saying things like "them Islam b*****ds ...." and so on. One rang a taxi, got perfectly good service yet finished the call and said to me "F*****g Paki Muslim on the phone" and rolled her eyes as if she'd been threatened rather than aided. It was disgusting, yet utterly normal these days from what I've seen. Our company was a family based near Leeds, so far more used than me to seeing minority faces. Their comments were viewed as perfectly okay by those around us. Nobody batted an eyelid except myself and my partner.

As for the next comment, I half agree. Not seen any direct abuse myself, but having heard how people talk behind the backs of Muslims .....
But as Fiero said, the rest of us get it daily too. In my case it's being a redhead, not fat, horse owner or 4x4 driver. This morning I was well and truely ribbed for not necking an injured pidgeon a dog brought to my shop, instead fetching an auction porter to do it. "What kind of country person are you? Just kill the bloody thing!" and so on. I shrug. It's life.

Hazell, the problem is the racists in society are getting fuel for their fire because the government keeps indulging and bending over backward to be "understanding" to some of these groups who feel it is societies job to adapt to them, rather than for them to condemn the extremists.

The height of anti-muslim talk in Canada wasn't when the Toronto "18" were caught for a scheme to place cubevans full of fertilizer explosive in front of Parliament and the Stock Exchange; but rather when a left wing NDP MPP iin the Provincial committee on alternative justice was advocating the province of Ontario bring in Sharia law for Muslims living in Ontario.

The GREATER the effort to accomodate some of the more radical ideas, the more backlash you get in society. So while I like you would not like to hear the racism over dinner, for it is wrong, I DO understand where it is coming from. The American theory of the great "melting pot" for immigrants used to be a concept that was dismissed. Now, only the hard left anti-Americans really not understand the need for some accomodation by immigrants.

[Hazell B]

Um, I see your point.

In my case, I used to say that it was fine for thousands of Poles to come here. I thought they were doing the jobs British people refused, I thought they were paying taxes and blending in well. I no longer think that thanks to being jostled constantly by ignorant Polish men who think women are lower down than them. One evening in my home town the ONLY voices I heard were Polish, and several of them shoved in front of me in queues, pushed me in doorways and generally behaved like nothing British at all. I'm now told that after about 4pm nobody local shops in the town centre much these days.

If I lived in a Muslim area, perhaps it would be the same and I'd think like the racists too ... though I would hope not!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Um, I see your point.

In my case, I used to say that it was fine for thousands of Poles to come here. I thought they were doing the jobs British people refused, I thought they were paying taxes and blending in well. I no longer think that thanks to being jostled constantly by ignorant Polish men who think women are lower down than them. One evening in my home town the ONLY voices I heard were Polish, and several of them shoved in front of me in queues, pushed me in doorways and generally behaved like nothing British at all. I'm now told that after about 4pm nobody local shops in the town centre much these days.

If I lived in a Muslim area, perhaps it would be the same and I'd think like the racists too ... though I would hope not!

In my previous occupation (and maybe again future if I don't find something too) we have a lot of racists. The trucking industry in Ontario and in Canada in general has a lot of Sikhs and Indians. A few Pakistanis mixed in for good measure and a large number of Polish and Russians are also there. Well, all the brown skinned drivers are derisvely called "Paki's" no matter whether they are Sikh and Hindu (usually) and the rude and ignorant behaviour of the eastern Europeans is overlooked. The reason of course for this racist attitude is because the newcomers do not always try to fit in the conventional fashion. That said, If they conform and behave to the same rules as the rest, then people will get past this in time. Where the trouble lies is when officialdom tries to enforce separate rules for the newcomers that are seen as more lenient. The authorities who advocate having driving examiners speaking Hindu is where they have gone wrong. Those drivers have to work in English, speak English, and read it on the roads. When they cross the border, no American is going to want to mess with this language issue, YET we have many who would advocate we are helping these guys by letting them do their driving exam in Hindu.

Meanwhile the Polish and Russian drivers are every bit if nor more rude on the road ( I was almost in a fist fight with a guy at the fuel pumps at a truckstop in London ON in November when a Polish driver jumped the queue) and are ignored. Racism rarely makes sense, and is never justified, but the more society bends over backwards to promote special favours, the greater the backlash. I don't hate the Hindu/Sikh community for buying trucks, nor do I hate all Polish drivers for being pushy abit....but if I listened to the CB, Hindu truckers are ruining the industry and are the scourge of the earth. Lucky for me, the CB radio is usually turned off, and my mind is open.

[Hondo]

Words from the Rev. Fiero.

Stereotyping, in any guise, be it racial, ethnic, religious, sexist, or even based upon age will always be with us. It will always be with us because in a broad, general sense, there is a lot of truth found within it. The positives and negatives that create any stereotype are based on the observations and experiences other people have had with the object of the stereotype. Personally, I see nothing wrong with someone embracing the stereotype as a starting point, until they get to know the individual. On the other hand, to accept a stereotype as a definative absolute of the entire group is to deny yourself of some pretty good relationships. Let us not forget that it is we, ourselves, that are responsible for the stereotype with which others view us.

Prejudice is a funny thing. Most of us are to some degree although we dislike admitting it. Prejudice can come from the object of prejudice itself without any other outside influence. To those with no or limited experiences, the prejudices of some may come as a mild shock, as in the case of Hazell's dinner quests. I was raised in an entirely nonprejudiced household. I never heard either parent utter a racial or ethnic slur. My mother did volunteer work teaching negros ( they weren't black or minorities yet) and immigrants to read and write so for 2 days a week when their babysitting fell through, I found myself president of my own personal UN chapter. We got along, language barriers and all. In the 1970's I took a job at a company of some 400 employees of which 98 percent were black. In the beginning I strained to understand what they were saying, I strained to understand what they were asking, and most surprising of all, I strained to tell them apart. As a rookie I would sometimes frown upon some of the racial comments made by coworkers although I kept my objections to myself. As I gained experience and learned the language of Ebonics (although no yet officially named as such) I began to realize just how much of the prejudices and stereotypes were based on fact. Then one day I was listening to a man relate how, during a minor altercation the past weekend, another man put him down in front of his girfriend so he reached for his pistol in the car but it was gone. His wife had taken it out when she cleaned the car. He left his girlfriend at the bar and went home and beat the crap out of his old lady for moving his pistol. I went up to my office and plopped down in my chair and looked at my direct supervisor. "What?" he asked. "My God, these people are children!" was all I could say. He laughed and said they were wondering when I'd come around to the program. I worked there 4 years and am affected ny those experiences to this day.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Stereotypes do come out of some truth, but lets face it Fiero, it still doesn't justify judging anyone by the colour of their skin or the nationality of their birth. We have to let everyone confirm or deny their nationality/racial stereotype by their actions and words. If we went by our debates with Eki's, we would put the average Finn down as an Anti-American peacenik who was in love with socialism....and yet we know that isn't all Finn's any more than Tony's world of black and white (ideas, not race) doesn't represent the USA and all Americans.

We have to fight our natural inclinations to put everyone in the stereotypical box. I try my damnest to give any person of any race or nationality a chance to be who they are, and not assume who they are.....

[Hondo]

accepting a stereotype as a starting place when dealing with an unknown is as good as any other method. I'd say Eki is pretty close.

[Mark in Oshawa]

accepting a stereotype as a starting place when dealing with an unknown is as good as any other method. I'd say Eki is pretty close.

I wouldn't want to think Eki is a typical Finn Fiero. I have met a few Finns on here over the last 5 years who didn't agree with Eki. He I am sure would wish they did....so in his views, he figures likely he should be a typical Finn. Heck, Tomi is most like Eki politically but I wouldn't say the two have the same sense of humour either. Eki, for all the fights I have with him has a pretty decent sense of humour and his English is far more accomplished than my Finnish....and you know most Finn's are not THAT conversant in English.

No..stereotypes are fun to poke fun at, and have fun with, but I would never want to put them down as accurate for more than say one person.

[Hondo]

I would have to meet a herd of Finns over there on their own turf before I could give you a reasonable reply. But, using Eki as a baseline would probably avoid any trouble until we, as individuals, got to know each other.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I would have to meet a herd of Finns over there on their own turf before I could give you a reasonable reply. But, using Eki as a baseline would probably avoid any trouble until we, as individuals, got to know each other.

So if you go to Finland, you are to assume they will hate you when they discover where you are from? God I hope it isn't THAT grim Fiero....

They cant be all bad, just look at the way they drive down a gravelly road!!!

[Hondo]

Eki doesn't hate me. Eki hates George Bush and is not fond of some of the things my country has done.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Eki doesn't hate me. Eki hates George Bush and is not fond of some of the things my country has done.

Oh that is true in the strictist sense, but there is a lot about America besides Dubya that annoys him....Heck..there are lots of things about America that can annoy me, but I don't think it is a personal thing to annoy me...lol

[ArrowsFA1]

accepting a stereotype as a starting place when dealing with an unknown is as good as any other method.
Isn't that rather a "shoot first, ask questions later" kind of approach?

[Hazell B]

Isn't that rather a "shoot first, ask questions later" kind of approach?

More a 'listen and thee shall learn' one, I'd say.

After all, stereotypes are, as said, often based in truth. Fiero's not saying we should hate all of one section of a community as they are all terrorists. He's saying we should start at the basic, least threatening and most realistic stereotype and work from there I think.

I half agree. Expect Poles to degrade women and they won't upset you if they do. Then, once they know you and you them, respect is sure to follow I'd hope.

[Hondo]

Isn't that rather a "shoot first, ask questions later" kind of approach?

Not at all my good man. Since you bring shooting into it, I would say it is more of know where your gun is in case you need it approach. Stereotypes are not composed of negative data only.

[Hondo]

More a 'listen and thee shall learn' one, I'd say.

After all, stereotypes are, as said, often based in truth. Fiero's not saying we should hate all of one section of a community as they are all terrorists. He's saying we should start at the basic, least threatening and most realistic stereotype and work from there I think.

I half agree. Expect Poles to degrade women and they won't upset you if they do. Then, once they know you and you them, respect is sure to follow I'd hope.

Bless you my sister in strife. I'll go one further on the Poles and say that once they know you and you know them and you tell them such & such offends you, they will stop it on their own.

[Hondo]

Oh that is true in the strictist sense, but there is a lot about America besides Dubya that annoys him....Heck..there are lots of things about America that can annoy me, but I don't think it is a personal thing to annoy me...lol

There's a whole sh!t load of stuff about America that annoys the hell outta me.

[Hazell B]

Bless you my sister in strife.

How dare you stereotype me as one who enters sisterhood :mark:

Strife, I can live with :p :

Sorry, back to the serious stuff ....

[Hondo]

How dare you stereotype me as one who enters sisterhood :mark:

Strife, I can live with :p :

Sorry, back to the serious stuff ....

Sorry mister,

[ArrowsFA1]

Stereotypes are not composed of negative data only.
True :s mokin: