Did Bunsen know SchM was coming to Brawn's team?

[Valve Bounce]

I have often wondered why Bunsen left a successful team with which he won the championship. Was he aware that SchM was going to join this team? did he know that Mercedes was going to take over this team? and did he suspect this: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80945

Going to McLaren may have been a very, very astute move on Bunsen's part.

[Hondo]

I think the little Villeneuve whupper went to McLaren for stability. The team he was on, Honda, quit. It was unsure if Brawn was going to make the first year, much less the second. Toyota, BMW, and for all practical purposes Renault are gone. Ferrari wasn't hiring, and Williams still suck. McLaren was looking for driving help, F1 is their business, and even Mosley couldn't put them out of business. I think he wanted to be with a team that would still be there in 6 months. I don't think he was afraid to pair up with the old git.

[Rollo]

It was confirmed that Button would be driving for McLaren as early as November 18 of 2009.
http://www.autosport.com/subs/login.php?r=http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80197&type=news&id=80197

The earliest date that we can conceive that Schumacher signed for Mercedes was on December 23rd of 2009.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8427552.stm

Materially it would certainly have been possible that both contracts would have been in existance, if for no other reason than if Schumacher was confirmed at Mercedes on 23-12-09 then it's reasonable to conclude that the contract negotiations would have been going on 35 days prior to that; especially if there are millions of dollarpounds involved.

No doubt the reason why Button moved to McLaren was probably on the grounds of money, and for this reason I suspect that Schumacher who probably doesn't need the cash is driving for a far cheaper rate than Button would have done.

Did Button know? Probably? But as Peter Minuit said when he bought Manhattan for 24 bucks... "Big Deal"

[Valve Bounce]

I think Bunsen went to McLaren for a lessor salary than what Brawn was offering.

[F1boat]

I have often wondered why Bunsen left a successful team with which he won the championship. Was he aware that SchM was going to join this team? did he know that Mercedes was going to take over this team? and did he suspect this: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80945

Going to McLaren may have been a very, very astute move on Bunsen's part.

Maybe, I don't know. Between Michael with Ross and Lewis with McLaren it is a bit like the old Greek legend - what was, Scyla and Kharidba?

[turismo6]

Has anyone made a link between Schmacher's return and Senna's debut?

[Valve Bounce]

........ what was, Scyla and Kharidba?

Which team are they driving for? :confused:

[CNR]

he could have been in talks with other teams as well as ferrari in or before august
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/08/ferrari-wants-schumacher-in-third-car-in-2010/

[christophulus]

I think the little Villeneuve whupper went to McLaren for stability.

I agree, Mercedes have invested a lot of money but they still have to answer to the board. Plus McLaren are proven front runners, and MercBrawn won't have the advantage they had at the start of 2009, so lightning may not strike twice.

Also, as Mercedes have taken over, who knows how much influence Brawn still retains? Maybe the new owners didn't want Button around any more, especially if he was demanding a large pay rise.

And there were rumours around Schumacher making a return for quite a while but I doubt Button ran off because of that. He's still got to aim to beat him next year on the track, whatever car he's driving.

[SGWilko]

I read somewhere (sorry - bad memory) that Ross had been in dialogue with MSch after his abortive ferrari stand in stint for Massa.

I like to think Ross took JB aside and said... 'it's like this....' ;)

[Valve Bounce]

Also, as Mercedes have taken over, who knows how much influence Brawn still retains?

I think the linked article in the OP makes this perfectly clear.

[Garry Walker]

Mercedes had long ago signed Rosberg and if Button had signed the contract, then Schumacher contract would not have happened. It became a serious topic once Button deserted to McLaren.
But Mercedes is better off with Rosberg and Schumacher than with Button and Rosberg.

[F1boat]

Didn't Ross admit that the negotiations sort of overlapped?

[F1boat]

But they did stall a long time ago, I think, even before Brazil. I mean, rumours were that Ross asked MS for a first time after Abu Dhabi...

[Mark]

Button certainly knew the team was going to be bought out by Mercedes. Other than that we can't know really.

[UltimateDanGTR]

To me it seemed the schumi-merc-ross deal had been done a while before the end of the season, just no announcements had been made. it is likely bunsen knew about this, and didn't fancy getting thrashed by the master (as we would expect to happen) if schumi and button were in the same car, and schumi was clearly getting better results, it would make buttons championship win look lucky and almost entirely down to the car. button didn't want this, and switched teams.

this is my guess and in no means am i saying this is the case, but rather what i think happened.

[christophulus]

I think the linked article in the OP makes this perfectly clear.

Not really. That says Brawn gets to decide whether Schumacher is number 1 or not, which will depend entirely on whether he recovers his previous form or is outclassed by Rosberg. It doesn't mean he necessarily has the final say on who to hire.

[Hondo]

I still think Button just wanted to sign with a team he felt sure would stay in the F1 business. The Mercedes board can yank the carpet out from underneath the F1 team any time it want's to. Just ask Dr. Mario.

I think sometimes we try to make things more complex than they really are. Button wanted a steady job, thats all.

[edv]

Anyone ever think that maybe an English WDC might, as a career ambition, drive for the top English team?

[SGWilko]

Sadly some of our debating chums on here find it difficult to draw that conclusion... :p :)

henners me ole mucker, does your sig mean you are looking down your nose at me? :)

[Valve Bounce]

Not really. That says Brawn gets to decide whether Schumacher is number 1 or not, which will depend entirely on whether he recovers his previous form or is outclassed by Rosberg. It doesn't mean he necessarily has the final say on who to hire.

You were wondering how much influence Ross Brawn would have and the linked article made this perfectly clear how much influence Ross Brawn would have in the Mercedes team on who would be #1. However, I would not be the least bit surprised that Ross Brawn did have a great influence in many ways on SchM joining the Mercedes Team, and my suspicion here is that Bunsen decided to join McLaren when he found out.

[Saint Devote]

Just read what Nico Rosberg says in an interview after it was announced. He said that he had signed with Brawn well before anything was announced and that he was looking forward to having Jenson as his teammate.

He says that he is disappointed because Jenson and him in the team would have been a good team, but he has no problem with Schumacher and is excited to have been the first German driver signed by Mercedes in f1 since Karl Kling.

Is Schumacher the new Tazio Nuvolari [the real greatest driver in the world ever]? We shall see. People have the 2004 Schumi stuck in their mind - well this is 2010 and Schuamcher has a lot more difficult competition to overcome?

Take off the Schumacher blinkers, remove the Jenson resentment and act like adults by giving these guys room to move and lets see.

The amount of anti-Jenson drivel that has been written on these boards is disgraceful. Similarly the people going all "Lady Gaga" over Schumacher makes teenage girls look mature.

Anyway I think Rosberg is going beat Schumacher and his neck problem will materialize before he has to face the tifosi music at Monza.

[Valve Bounce]

One could argue that Bernd Rosemeyer was the greatest driver ever, but that has nothing to do with this thread. Meanwhile, I reserve to right to discuss about Bunsen or SchM as I see fit. Those who do not like this are free to move to another thread.

[Saint Devote]

One could argue that Bernd Rosemeyer was the greatest driver ever, but that has nothing to do with this thread. Meanwhile, I reserve to right to discuss about Bunsen or SchM as I see fit. Those who do not like this are free to move to another thread.

Dont get all defensive - nobody is questioning your privilege. But you do not discuss Jenson - you always attack him and in your view he has done nothing to deserve anything.

You are one of the leading Jenson resenters onthis board.

And besides it being Jenson, I have never discovered such people who profess to love motor racing and yet can be so towards ANY driver.

[Saint Devote]

Anyway - January 19 is Jense's 30th birthday and he can be well proud of his achievments.

Not bad at all for the lad from Frome who decided at eight years old that he wanted to be world champion racing driver and went for it.

Many happy returns Jense! :-]

[Valve Bounce]

Dont get all defensive - nobody is questioning your privilege. But you do not discuss Jenson - you always attack him and in your view he has done nothing to deserve anything.

You are one of the leading Jenson resenters onthis board.

And besides it being Jenson, I have never discovered such people who profess to love motor racing and yet can be so towards ANY driver.

This has about as much truth as the IPCC's claim of the rapid meltdown of glaciers in the Himilayas.

As a matter of fact, Bunsen had stuck with this team through thick and thin, even reneging on a contractual obligation to drive for Williams. This loyalty reached it's greatest when he was getting done a couple of years ago by his previous test drivers peddling second hand Hondas.

I would have expected Brawn to make his new champion the #1 driver to partner the newly signed Rosberg. Who really knows when Brawn started talking to SchM? to convince him to make a comeback in a team powered by Mercedes engines, and owned and run by his famous race tactician? Who knows when Bunsen became aware of this? Who knows what Bunsen thought of this arrangement? I know the linked article in the OP would have been alarming had it come out then.

I am surmising that Bunsen felt that he would get a fair deal if he went to McLaren, and be permitted to compete on even terms with Lewis Hamilton.

But even if I did profess to be the greatest detractor of Bunsen (or SchM for that matter), I am still entitled to discuss this in a forum for which I have been a member for almost nine years.

[Saint Devote]

This has about as much truth as the IPCC's claim of the rapid meltdown of glaciers in the Himilayas.

As a matter of fact, Bunsen had stuck with this team through thick and thin, even reneging on a contractual obligation to drive for Williams. This loyalty reached it's greatest when he was getting done a couple of years ago by his previous test drivers peddling second hand Hondas.

I would have expected Brawn to make his new champion the #1 driver to partner the newly signed Rosberg. Who really knows when Brawn started talking to SchM? to convince him to make a comeback in a team powered by Mercedes engines, and owned and run by his famous race tactician? Who knows when Bunsen became aware of this? Who knows what Bunsen thought of this arrangement? I know the linked article in the OP would have been alarming had it come out then.

I am surmising that Bunsen felt that he would get a fair deal if he went to McLaren, and be permitted to compete on even terms with Lewis Hamilton.

But even if I did profess to be the greatest detractor of Bunsen (or SchM for that matter), I am still entitled to discuss this in a forum for which I have been a member for almost nine years.

Unlike you I am not a conspiracy hypothesist either.

You may believe what you want if it makes you happy - it has no bearing on the outcome.

Jenson and Hamilton are going to have a great tussle this year and the difference will be as it always is in racing when two good drivers fight as teammates in good cars in the top f1 team, the driver that makes the least mistakes will win.

Jenson proved his mettle last year whether it was in Monte Carlo or the dreadful conditions in Shanghai where in both cases Lewis made serious errors.

Roll on Sakhir!

[Valve Bounce]

Unlike you I am not a conspiracy hypothesist either.

You may believe what you want if it makes you happy - it has no bearing on the outcome.



I have no desire to be anything like you, and I will remain happy to discuss whatever I please here without your sanction or approval. Thank you!!

[Saint Devote]

Anyone ever think that maybe an English WDC might, as a career ambition, drive for the top English team?

Jenson alluded to this point as well.

Mclaren is not only the top British team but the top racing team in the world. He said that driving for Mclaren is something he has always wanted.

Just look at their remarkable turnaround in 2009. Jenson also does not throw cars off the road and this has ALWAYS scored high points with Mclaren.

Time for Woking to kick some Mercedes, Red Bull and Ferrari arse! :D

[Valve Bounce]

Sadly some of our debating chums on here find it difficult to draw that conclusion... :p :)

This is true! however, Bunsen did win the championship conclusively with the Brawn team, he has remained very loyal to this team through thick and thin (sometimes very thin), it has been reported that Bunsen was taking a salary cut to drive for McLaren, and finally, it has been argued that despite the branding Brawn/Mercedes is still an English team, and I maintain that Brawn is possibly the best tactician in F1, and there is every reason to believe that Brawn/Mercedes could still be the best team in F1 this year. Furthermore, it has been pointed out by many within and outside this forum, that Hamilton is the better driver, will be favoured by McLaren, and will thrash Bunsen this year.

All this makes for very interesting discussion/debate, don't you think henners ?

[ShiftingGears]

the driver that makes the least mistakes will win.

The winning driver will most probably be the faster one.

Advantage Hamilton.

[555-04Q2]

If Button had known that Schumi was coming to the team, he should have stuck around to prove his statement he made in the 2004 season, "I'm as good as Schumacher", when driving for the BAR Team. Would have been...interesting.

[Valve Bounce]

If Button had known that Schumi was coming to the team, he should have stuck around to prove his statement he made in the 2004 season, "I'm as good as Schumacher", when driving for the BAR Team. Would have been...interesting.

I wouldn't count on that after I read the article linked in the OP.

[christophulus]

You were wondering how much influence Ross Brawn would have and the linked article made this perfectly clear how much influence Ross Brawn would have in the Mercedes team on who would be #1.

I see what you mean but I just don't think that is much of a choice. Either Schumacher is on form or he isn't, so the number 1 driver decision will be easy either way. I can't see them getting to a point where Schumacher and Rosberg are both in contention for the championship.


However, I would not be the least bit surprised that Ross Brawn did have a great influence in many ways on SchM joining the Mercedes Team, and my suspicion here is that Bunsen decided to join McLaren when he found out.

I agree, but was Brawn trying to recruit Schu first, and only then did Button decide to move? What about Rosberg, when did he sign a contract? Or did discussions with Schu only start once they had a vacancy to fill..

Personally I think that Button moved because he'd invested a lot of time and loyalty in Honda/Brawn and wasn't being rewarded for that, which is understandable. Time will tell whether his decision was a good one or not.

To be honest though, the England vs Germany aspect is looking quite interesting for next year :)

[Mia 01]

At which time did Mercedes and Brawn start their negotiations?

[christophulus]

Jenson and Hamilton are going to have a great tussle this year and the difference will be as it always is in racing when two good drivers fight as teammates in good cars in the top f1 team, the driver that makes the least mistakes will win.

Jenson proved his mettle last year whether it was in Monte Carlo or the dreadful conditions in Shanghai where in both cases Lewis made serious errors.

I agree (:eek :) that Button raced well this year for the most part. Determined and relatively error-free apart from the odd dodgy qualifying session, and took advantage of a dominant car while he still had it. And indeed, at the start of the season it looked like Hamilton was on course to implode under the media expectation and the realisation he was driving a dog of a car.

However, Hamilton has regrouped, matured, and I would say ended the season as the stronger driver, having addressed his flaws. Button is a good driver, Hamilton (starting just his 4th season) is already more than a match for him with the potential to improve even further.

[Valve Bounce]

I see what you mean but I just don't think that is much of a choice. Either Schumacher is on form or he isn't, so the number 1 driver decision will be easy either way. I can't see them getting to a point where Schumacher and Rosberg are both in contention for the championship.

I would have expected the new (owners) of the team to at least insist that there would be no #1 driver and that both drivers will be treated equally. At least that's probably what all the other teams will insist. :rolleyes: :p :





I agree, but was Brawn trying to recruit Schu first, and only then did Button decide to move? What about Rosberg, when did he sign a contract? Or did discussions with Schu only start once they had a vacancy to fill.. Who knows, and that's the whole point of this thread. In the event of SchM being resurrected to Team Mercedes with Bunsen, there would have been a number of ways to resolve the Rosberg issue, not the least of which would be to lend him to Williams.


Personally I think that Button moved because he'd invested a lot of time and loyalty in Honda/Brawn and wasn't being rewarded for that, which is understandable. Time will tell whether his decision was a good one or not.

My exact sentiments. You don't have a guy bust his guts to win you two championships and then tell him he might have to play second fiddle.

[Hondo]

I didn't know Button could play a fiddle. Funny what you can learn hanging around here in the middle of the night.

[Saint Devote]

I agree (:eek :) that Button raced well this year for the most part. Determined and relatively error-free apart from the odd dodgy qualifying session, and took advantage of a dominant car while he still had it. And indeed, at the start of the season it looked like Hamilton was on course to implode under the media expectation and the realisation he was driving a dog of a car.

However, Hamilton has regrouped, matured, and I would say ended the season as the stronger driver, having addressed his flaws. Button is a good driver, Hamilton (starting just his 4th season) is already more than a match for him with the potential to improve even further.

Monza is not the start of season and in China he could not adapt in the extremely bad conditions which a supposedly "supreme" driver a you rate him ought to be able to do.

Either of our views will only be proven in 2010.

Jenson is more than a "good driver" - he is the reigning world champion - butwhats the use, people like you have a cognitive dissonance based on the Honda team.

[Saint Devote]

I didn't know Button could play a fiddle. Funny what you can learn hanging around here in the middle of the night.

Reality is not their strongest point.

They like to believe what they want to not what Rosberg or Brawn say....... This is just a conspiracy for Jenson to save face y'know

[Saint Devote]

You keep mentioning that Hamilton made a mistake in Monaco like it has any bearing on his driving ability. I'm struggling to understand why you see it as such a prominent factor with the two being paired against each other?

Like Jenson, Lewis is a Monaco winner, and he had what it took on the day to beat the rest of the field. Like Jenson, Lewis has crashed during a build up to the Monaco Grand Prix. Oh yes Bunsen has made a slightly larger error in the past whilst preparing for this very event. In fact he nearly bloody killed himself back in 2003. And Like Hamilton, it was also in his THIRD season!

So I suggest you stop trying to promote Button in your ramblings by suggesting Hamilton is the inferior pilot, when everyone here knows thats a complete and utter pile of pants... :)

Because there is a double standard here.
When Hamilton makes an error it is the car, if Jenson does something it is the driver - you know that by now.

And worst of all there are too many here that will rather write fiction than give Jenson even a shred of credit for anything.

When I joined this board I did not realize that this would be a nest of anti-Jenson vipers. I did realize eventually that Jenson's winning the world championship would rankle them like nothing else - ain't life beautiful :D

[christophulus]

Monza is not the start of season and in China he could not adapt in the extremely bad conditions which a supposedly "supreme" driver a you rate him ought to be able to do.

Either of our views will only be proven in 2010.

Jenson is more than a "good driver" - he is the reigning world champion - butwhats the use, people like you have a cognitive dissonance based on the Honda team.

Hamilton did badly in China, yes, but was outstanding in the British GP in 2008 in equally bad conditions. His team was in turmoil at the time and he went through a minor crisis, and came out stronger than before. Button is a "good" driver, and my prediction is that he'll be closer to Hamilton than Kovalainen was, but will struggle to beat him in the final standings. Just my opinion.

Edit: We seem to have gone off topic again. Sorry about that!

[Valve Bounce]

Because there is a double standard here.
When Hamilton makes an error it is the car, if Jenson does something it is the driver - you know that by now.

And worst of all there are too many here that will rather write fiction than give Jenson even a shred of credit for anything.

When I joined this board I did not realize that this would be a nest of anti-Jenson vipers. :D

If you don't like the way we discuss different things in this forum, you know where the door is - just don't let it hit your arse on your way out.