Maximum speed of W.R.C cars

[Langdale Forest]

What is the maximum permitted speed of WRC cars in 2010?

[bluuford]

What is the maximum permitted speed of WRC cars in 2010?

not again..

Talking about the thread. It s not regulated. Depends on the rally. It is more important to reach 100 km/h than extra high max speed.

[pettersolberg29]

This is actually quite interesting to me. On the road, if a car was set up right how fast could it go?

[Francis44]

The top speed is limited but I guess on tarmac rally's they can easily top 220 KM/h.

[Langdale Forest]

Limited to what?

[Francis44]

Limited to what?

The maximum speed of the car is limited by the team so drivers dont go balls out.

[Langdale Forest]

If there was no limiter what could the car reach?

[Francis44]

If there was no limiter what could the car reach?
That I dont know im no engineer :p .

[Mirek]

It only depends on gearing as always.

This formula is simplified but could give You some idea about maximal possible speed with WRC car just by power...

Faero - aerodynamic force (N)
cx - drag coefficient
A - frontal area (m2)
ro - air density (kg/m3)
v - speed (m/s)
Fother - another counter forces, let's say they are zero
P - power (W)

Faero = 1/2 * cx * A * ro * v2

P = (Faero + Fother) * v = Faero * v (for us)

Let's say usable power on wheels is P=260kW; cx=0,4 (maybe a bit too much but I can't estimate the wing effect on it), ro=1,3kg/m3, A=1,8m2

Than

v = third root ( P / (1/2 * cx * A * ro ) ) = third root ((260000/(0,5*0,4*1,8*1,3) = 82,2 m/s = 296 km/h = 184 mph

In fact it's useless for rallying and better acceleration (and therefore shorter gears) is prefered. Usualy top speed is around 210 km/h (130 mph)

[Iskald]

]It only depends on gearing as always.

This formula is simplified but could give You some idea about maximal possible speed with WRC car just by power...

Faero - aerodynamic force (N)
cx - drag coefficient
A - frontal area (m2)
ro - air density (kg/m3)
v - speed (m/s)
Fother - another counter forces, let's say they are zero
P - power (W)

Faero = 1/2 * cx * A * ro * v2

P = (Faero + Fother) * v = Faero * v (for us)

Let's say usable power on wheels is P=260kW; cx=0,4 (maybe a bit too much but I can't estimate the wing effect on it), ro=1,3kg/m3, A=1,8m2

Than

v = third root ( P / (1/2 * cx * A * ro ) ) = third root ((260000/(0,5*0,4*1,8*1,3) = 82,2 m/s = 296 km/h = 184 mph

In fact it's useless for rallying and better acceleration (and therefore shorter gears) is prefered. Usualy top speed is around 210 km/h (130 mph)

Impressive maths and physichs (!), but you are actually quite correct. I have done quite a few rallies in WRC-cars (codriving) and have noted "personal bests" with 216 km/h on gravel and 208 km/h on snow/ice. These are logged and true speeds. Very few special stages teoretically would allow any higher speeds than this, even if the cars were geared for higher top-speeds.

[Rally_Rocks]

The final stage on last years Rally Norway had a very long flat out section. Most of the top drivers speeds were recorded with a calibrated speed gun. Off the top of my head Loeb achieved 208kph, Hirvonen 215 and Solberg in the Xsara 219. Astonishingly, the fastest was Flodin in the group N Subaru at 221kph.

[Langdale Forest]

The group N car probably has less limitation on the top speed.

[Iskald]

The final stage on last years Rally Norway had a very long flat out section. Most of the top drivers speeds were recorded with a calibrated speed gun. Off the top of my head Loeb achieved 208kph, Hirvonen 215 and Solberg in the Xsara 219. Astonishingly, the fastest was Flodin in the group N Subaru at 221kph.

Actually I don`t believe this at all. There is a inboardclip (with Latvala I think) just topping 200. I was in a car myself during Rally Norway (N4 Mitsu) and we had appr. 190 km/h on this straight. There is no way Flodin could have been 30 km/h faster (unless he had chucked out his restrictor before starting the stage...).

The fact is that studded snow rallytires (even on hard ice) has quite a bit more rolling resistance than gravel tyres - not to mention slicks. So these socalled "measurements" are absolutely false.

[Allyc85]

Rally cars dont have a speed limiter as such, they are restricted by the gear ratios and of course engine power and drag etc as Mirek has pointed out. A team will set up the gear ratios to give the best balance between top speed and acceleration, theres no point in putting in long ratios for one long straight when the rest of the stage is very twisty.


The highest I can remember seeing is around 130mph, though with the power the cars have I expect they could top 160-170mph with a long enough straight.

[Rally_Rocks]

Iskald, maybe you gad too many pies that day! The figures above are from memory but are pretty much correct.

[Langdale Forest]

I guess that anything above 130mph in a forest would be far too dangerous.

[Gard]

If I remember correctly. Henning had 223km/h when passing the finish line at the mountain stage. This was the year before Rally Norway became an official wrc event and Henning used the 307. (Didn't you co-drive in this rally, Iskald? with Tord?) Then again, if you set the car up for minimum drag and geared it for top speed, it would probably get close to 300km/h.

[Iskald]

Iskald, maybe you gad too many pies that day! The figures above are from memory but are pretty much correct.

So your memory is more correct than my observations from the datalog of the car I was codriving???

I do like to stuff myself, but not with pies...

[Iskald]

If I remember correctly. Henning had 223km/h when passing the finish line at the mountain stage. This was the year before Rally Norway became an official wrc event and Henning used the 307. (Didn't you co-drive in this rally, Iskald? with Tord?) Then again, if you set the car up for minimum drag and geared it for top speed, it would probably get close to 300km/h.

This is also one of many myths. Yes I did codrive Tord Linnerud in the Peugeot 206 WRC in Rally Norway 2006 (candidate event). The Mountain stage finishes with a very fast downhill stretch into a flat left going upwards towards the finish line. 223 km/h, no way! I very much doubt that this is anywhere near correct. In fact I very much doubt that any rally car whatsoever manages to reach that speed anywhere driving on studded tyres with high rolling resistance.

[Gard]

This is also one of many myths. Yes I did codrive Tord Linnerud in the Peugeot 206 WRC in Rally Norway 2006 (candidate event). The Mountain stage finishes with a very fast downhill stretch into a flat left going upwards towards the finish line. 223 km/h, no way! I very much doubt that this is anywhere near correct. In fact I very much doubt that any rally car whatsoever manages to reach that speed anywhere driving on studded tyres with high rolling resistance.

Yeah.. Henning might have exaggerated a bit :eek: But this is what he told the radio after the finish.

[Iskald]

Yeah.. Henning might have exaggerated a bit :eek: But this is what he told the radio after the finish.

Rally drivers are experts when it comes til exaggerations and excuses. Believe you me, I have codriven more than 30 of the bast..ds!

[julkki]

In mtv3.fi there is a blog of Mikko and in one section people can ask questions. One asked about what is the the top speed that he has reached with a rallt car.

Mikko answered that in Mexico 2004 SWRT enigeers saw from data that he had reached 232 km/h in one really long downhill section.

[Tomi]

Mikko answered that in Mexico 2004 SWRT enigeers saw from data that he had reached 232 km/h in one really long downhill section.

Funny when read this tread i was thinking of Mexico, Rovanperä after he did testdrive it for Peugeot, said after he was asked about the rally, that it was else good but had 1 many km straight meaningless stage.

[Mirek]

In november 2003 Fabia WRC Evo I reached 215 km/h maximum on testing ground which is in fact 3 km long tarmac straight. It's factory data. However I don't know which rally was the car set for.

[306 Cosworth]

Eugene Donnelly reach 149MPH(240 KM/H) in his Corolla WRC on the 2004 Cork 20 Rally.

John Dalton had 152mph out of his Darrian T90 GTR on Epynt (245 KM/H)

I believe the Peugeot Cosworth has been geared for 155MPH before too (249KM/H)

[Iskald]

Eugene Donnelly reach 149MPH(240 KM/H) in his Corolla WRC on the 2004 Cork 20 Rally.

John Dalton had 152mph out of his Darrian T90 GTR on Epynt (245 KM/H)

I believe the Peugeot Cosworth has been geared for 155MPH before too (249KM/H)

I somehow have very difficult in believing this. How long straights do you have in Ireland and on Epynt, really?
I have done something like 30 rallies codriving a Corolla WRC, admittedly not on tarmac, but I do know that car and its performance rather well...

[chrisc]

Eugene Donnelly reach 149MPH(240 KM/H) in his Corolla WRC on the 2004 Cork 20 Rally.

John Dalton had 152mph out of his Darrian T90 GTR on Epynt (245 KM/H)

I believe the Peugeot Cosworth has been geared for 155MPH before too (249KM/H)

was just about to put this up about donnelly i think there is a clip on the net somewhere i will try and find it now. It was on the cork 20 rally

[Mirek]

Just asked a friend who's family was running several Corolla WRC. Top speed of Corolla with long gearbox is actually 218 km/h.

He said that there might have been longer gearbox for Safari but they never had it.

[cali]

Eugene Donnelly reach 149MPH(240 KM/H) in his Corolla WRC on the 2004 Cork 20 Rally.

John Dalton had 152mph out of his Darrian T90 GTR on Epynt (245 KM/H)

I believe the Peugeot Cosworth has been geared for 155MPH before too (249KM/H)

Some unrealistic numbers for rallying. Sounds like these cars are geared up for One-Mile Challenge. Usually on gravel and on normal roads, top speed should be around 198 - 207 kmh. These speeds are rarely achievable on twisty roads which are mostly used in rallying.

[Allyc85]

So your saying that a rally car with say 300bhp can only do 130mph?!

I think the question needs clarifing personally. Does langdale mean whats the potential top speed of a rally car or whats the fastest recorded speed of one. Surely he cant mean what is the top speed they are allowed to do!

[Mirek]

There is no limit on top speed. You're limited by maximum engine rpm but it just makes no sense to use longer gears since they are not useful in rallying and with shorter gears You have better acceleration.

[Allyc85]

obviously :)

[Iskald]

]Just asked a friend who's family was running several Corolla WRC. Top speed of Corolla with long gearbox is actually 218 km/h.

He said that there might have been longer gearbox for Safari but they never had it.

As I have told earlier - and matches your information - my "personal best" in a WRC Corolla is 216 km/h. I have no reason to believe that they have been running Corollas with Safari gearboxes in Ireland, and still that wouldn`t reach 240 km/h. It`s just hearsay, but some people are willing to believe anything they are told... ;)

About the Darrian I have no clue about the performance of such a kit-car, but still 245 km/h sounds much too high in a rally.

We have a guy here in Norway running a Volvo 242 Turbo in unlimited National class. The car is believed to have well above 400 hp and a topspeed of appr. 220 km/h. But still then the straights will have to be mighty long for the car to achieve that.

[RICARDO75]

Petter Solberg at 208kph through Budor (SS20) as the Norwegian sets the fastest speed

http://www.wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=300&featureid=1016&desc=Norway%20Highlights%202009:%20Petter%20over%2 0200kph!

[JFL]

if a roadcar with diesel, 210hp and 410NM and 1525kg can do 250km/h , I can't understand why a WRC car with the right gearbox can do the same or more.. But in Rally, obviosly there is no need for that.. But there is a possibilty to make them go really fast..

[Daniel]

JFL, a roadcar is geared lower, has low resistance tyres and lower drag bodywork.

[JFL]

higher you mean.. I know.. ;) But its possible.. remove the aeros and put on some road tires.. ;)

[Daniel]

Yes I mean higher sorry :)

[cali]

So your saying that a rally car with say 300bhp can only do 130mph?!

I think the question needs clarifing personally. Does langdale mean whats the potential top speed of a rally car or whats the fastest recorded speed of one. Surely he cant mean what is the top speed they are allowed to do!

I think You got some figures wrong - WRC cars have more than 300 bhp. Ofcourse they can do more than 220 kmh, but this is not suitable for rallying.

[6789]

I think You got some figures wrong - WRC cars have more than 300 bhp. Ofcourse they can do more than 220 kmh, but this is not suitable for rallying.

I would have to agree. A WRC could probably do 270kmh +, but top speed isnt important its acceleration :) This is would have to be one of my favorite videos on youtube, love the sound and the acceleration!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kazV2TsREg

[raybak]

The fastest on gravel that I have been and it was a Group N Evo 6.5 was 225kmh at Rally of SA in 2006. This was on a 2km straight downhill for most of it.

On tarmac have seen 240kmh in Targa Tassie in a BMW M3R.

Ray

[Gard]

The question is. Whats the question?

[MrJan]

We have a guy here in Norway running a Volvo 242 Turbo in unlimited National class. The car is believed to have well above 400 hp and a topspeed of appr. 220 km/h. But still then the straights will have to be mighty long for the car to achieve that.

A Darrian weighs less than a gnats gonads though so you would expect it to top something like a Volvo. The bit that I doubt is anyone having the stones to do 150+mph on Epynt or a motor club being allowed to run any decent straight these days. Mostly up on Epynt they are constrained by hay bales and stupid chicanes.

[raybak]

We had a stage on Targa Tassie that has since been canned that some of the Porsche guys were seeing 260+ kmh.

The cars are just getting so much quicker these days, especially now that we have the R35 Skyline competing.

Ray

[306 Cosworth]

A Darrian weighs less than a gnats gonads though so you would expect it to top something like a Volvo. The bit that I doubt is anyone having the stones to do 150+mph on Epynt or a motor club being allowed to run any decent straight these days. Mostly up on Epynt they are constrained by hay bales and stupid chicanes.

Plenty of massive straights on Epynt where 150MPH is achieveable.
Incar with Dalton in his Darrian

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KifRQ7t2rw0


As I have told earlier - and matches your information - my "personal best" in a WRC Corolla is 216 km/h. I have no reason to believe that they have been running Corollas with Safari gearboxes in Ireland, and still that wouldn`t reach 240 km/h. It`s just hearsay, but some people are willing to believe anything they are told...

It is not hear say at all. It was proved using the cars onboard data. He was doing 149.9MPH.

[richy]

John Dalton had 152mph out of his Darrian T90 GTR on Epynt (245 KM/H)



correct, didnt the front end almost start lifting, consequently the front splitter was redesigned? or is that just a myth?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tDHzBbbqRY

Some onboard with a 6R4 (just pure perfection that sound, pornography!) on Epynt as I was beaten to the Dalton link. A mate of mine has co-driven in an Impreza S11 over Epynt and he told me that it was nigh on cutting out flat in 6th so quite believable id say!

[Allyc85]

150mph over Epynt, balls to that must have a right set lol


I think You got some figures wrong - WRC cars have more than 300 bhp. Ofcourse they can do more than 220 kmh, but this is not suitable for rallying.

I was giivng a rough figure as thats whats usually said :)

What are WRC cars running these days?

[Mirek]

Some 360-400 Hp for newest cars I guess.

[Langdale Forest]

How fast can pikes peaks cars go?

[Ghostwalker]

How fast can pikes peaks cars go?

19,99km in 10:01.408 Minutes.

[cali]

150mph over Epynt, balls to that must have a right set lol



I was giivng a rough figure as thats whats usually said :)

What are WRC cars running these days?


Officially 300 hp :D , but like Mirek said, around 400 hp and lots of torque :)

[OldF]

If you know the ratios the theoretical top speed can be calculated with some simple math. For a Mitsubishi group N (evo9) gear ratios I’ve seen was:
1st gear ratio: 3,0000
2nd gear ratio: 2,000
3rd gear ratio: 1,470
4th gear ratio 1.1111
5th gear ratio: 0,857
Final gear ratio: 3,307

Calculating the theoretical speed at a certain rpm and a selected gear and with a wheel diameter of 650 mm = 0,650 m (which is as far as I know the diameter allowed in WRC etc.) is:

Speed (km/h) = rpm / gear ratio / final gear ratio * pii * 0,650 * 60 / 1000

For the first gear at 5000 rpm the speed would be:

5000 / 3,000 / 3,307 * pii (~3,14) * 0,650 * 60 / 1000 = 62 km/h

Top speed with 5th gear would be:

5000 / 0,857 / 3,307 * pii (~3,14) * 0,650 * 60 / 1000 = 216 km/h

Changing the final drive ratio to 3, the top speed would be:

5000 / 0,857 / 3,000 * pii (~3,14) * 0,650 * 60 / 1000 = 238 km/h

For a WRC car one set of gearbox ratios and 2 sets of final drive ratios can be homologated.

[gravelman]

Eugene Donnelly reach 149MPH(240 KM/H) in his Corolla WRC on the 2004 Cork 20 Rally.

John Dalton had 152mph out of his Darrian T90 GTR on Epynt (245 KM/H)

I believe the Peugeot Cosworth has been geared for 155MPH before too (249KM/H)

The RPM tv show here in Ireland had telemetry on the car to prove it. It was the cars last rally in Donnellys hands before he got the S12 and Wevers was in Cork with his Corolla and Peter Tsjoen, and they stretched its legs a bit. It was the ultimate spec they claimed to run for a Corrolla WRC.

While we are on the topic, a figure of 147mph was mentioned as being the top speed reached by the Subaru of Andrew Nesbitt on a stage in Donegal a few years back. I also recall mention of Francois Delecours Escort Cosworth touching 143mph on the Burzat stage of Monte in 1993, read it in an old magazine of mine. :s mokin:

[Mirek]

Escort had 7-speed gearbox.

[Langdale Forest]

In Mobil 1 rally, the Renault Maxi magane had 7 gears.

[gravelman]

]Escort had 7-speed gearbox.

Yeah that might certainly have something to do with it. Remember heraing crazy speeds being mentioned with regard to drivers in the cars with 7spd box here in Ireland. Have a video here onboard with Frank Meagher (RIP) where its mentioned that flat in 5th was well between 110 and 130mph, and that car DEFINATELY had the 7spd FFD box

[janvanvurpa]

If you know the ratios the theoretical top speed can be calculated with some simple math. For a Mitsubishi group N (evo9) gear ratios I’ve seen was:
1st gear ratio: 3,0000
2nd gear ratio: 2,000
3rd gear ratio: 1,470
4th gear ratio 1.1111
5th gear ratio: 0,857
Final gear ratio: 3,307

Calculating the theoretical speed at a certain rpm and a selected gear and with a wheel diameter of 650 mm = 0,650 m (which is as far as I know the diameter allowed in WRC etc.) is:

Speed (km/h) = rpm / gear ratio / final gear ratio * pii * 0,650 * 60 / 1000

For the first gear at 5000 rpm the speed would be:

5000 / 3,000 / 3,307 * pii (~3,14) * 0,650 * 60 / 1000 = 62 km/h

Top speed with 5th gear would be:

5000 / 0,857 / 3,307 * pii (~3,14) * 0,650 * 60 / 1000 = 216 km/h

Changing the final drive ratio to 3, the top speed would be:

5000 / 0,857 / 3,000 * pii (~3,14) * 0,650 * 60 / 1000 = 238 km/h

For a WRC car one set of gearbox ratios and 2 sets of final drive ratios can be homologated.

Satana poiki why confuse the discussion with reality and actual examples, that ruins the bench racing.

That would spoil the fun almost as much as if I said I talk to Mike Taylor up in Yorkshire who run Ford's Group N program for years, and he said back in the 40mm restrictor for GpA car and 38mm for N that the GpN Sapphires would reach a bit over 150mph if there was room (243 km/hr) but he stresses that was with the normal 0,82 top gear and 3,64 final drive and motors that were happy to do a bit over 7500 rpm.

And he said of course that was "much higher top speed" than GpA car. (in those day using 1:1 top and 4.67 or even 4,88 final drive)

But bring facts into a bench racing thread is very impolite and so I won't say anything mean, we should just go on talking about what somebody heard somebody claim they read, it's calmer that way...

Try to be better in future Old Finn Djavul 8).

[gravelman]

Satana poiki why confuse the discussion with reality and actual examples, that ruins the bench racing.

That would spoil the fun almost as much as if I said I talk to Mike Taylor up in Yorkshire who run Ford's Group N program for years, and he said back in the 40mm restrictor for GpA car and 38mm for N that the GpN Sapphires would reach a bit over 150mph if there was room (243 km/hr) but he stresses that was with the normal 0,82 top gear and 3,64 final drive and motors that were happy to do a bit over 7500 rpm.

And he said of course that was "much higher top speed" than GpA car. (in those day using 1:1 top and 4.67 or even 4,88 final drive)

But bring facts into a bench racing thread is very impolite and so I won't say anything mean, we should just go on talking about what somebody heard somebody claim they read, it's calmer that way...

Try to be better in future Old Finn Djavul 8).


BLOODY HELL!!! :eek:

[Mirek]

OldF: Effective diameter of the wheel is some 3-4% smaller and therefore the speed also ;)

janvanvurpa: Sorry for that :)

[OldF]

Satana poiki why confuse the discussion with reality and actual examples, that ruins the bench racing.

That would spoil the fun almost as much as if I said I talk to Mike Taylor up in Yorkshire who run Ford's Group N program for years, and he said back in the 40mm restrictor for GpA car and 38mm for N that the GpN Sapphires would reach a bit over 150mph if there was room (243 km/hr) but he stresses that was with the normal 0,82 top gear and 3,64 final drive and motors that were happy to do a bit over 7500 rpm.

And he said of course that was "much higher top speed" than GpA car. (in those day using 1:1 top and 4.67 or even 4,88 final drive)

But bring facts into a bench racing thread is very impolite and so I won't say anything mean, we should just go on talking about what somebody heard somebody claim they read, it's calmer that way...

Try to be better in future Old Finn Djavul 8).

I apologies for spoiling your evening. Have some mjöd. :dozey:

PS It’s saatanan poika :)

[OldF]

]OldF: Effective diameter of the wheel is some 3-4% smaller and therefore the speed also ;)

janvanvurpa: Sorry for that :)

That’s right but as I wrote it was only theoretical calculations and I think what you posted earlier about the physics affects the top speed even more.

[Mirek]

Yes... You're right. I was more out of reality for sure :D

[Iskald]

Plenty of massive straights on Epynt where 150MPH is achieveable.
Incar with Dalton in his Darrian

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KifRQ7t2rw0

.

Nice video, and certainly fast stuff, but its not 245 km/h.

[Helstar]

Wow what a beast ! Ye it's not 245km/h but surely a nice car ;)

[306 Cosworth]

That video isn't from 245km/h but he has been recorded doing that speed.

[Iskald]

But bring facts into a bench racing thread is very impolite and so I won't say anything mean, we should just go on talking about what somebody heard somebody claim they read, it's calmer that way...



I just had to quote janvanvurpa, a guy I believe also has sat in rally cars quite a few times. Like myself.

Btw. can I be quoted as a undeniable fact my claim to have seen Santa Claus coming down my chimney this christmas. ;)

[cali]

Btw. can I be quoted as a undeniable fact my claim to have seen Santa Claus coming down my chimney this christmas. ;)

I believe You :p