Guantanamo Reunion

[Eki]

BBC World is showing a reunion of two former Guantanamo prisoners and one former Guantanamo guard. It's heart warming to see how those two are able to forgive the guard.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/11/business/media/11bbc.html


Guantánamo Reunion, by Way of BBC

New to Facebook, Brandon Neely was searching the site for acquaintances in 2008 when he typed in the names of some of the detainees he had guarded during his tenure as a prison guard at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba.

Mr. Neely, an Army veteran who spent six months at the prison in 2002, sent messages to one of the freed men, Shafiq Rasul, and was astonished when Mr. Rasul replied. Their exchanges sparked a face-to-face meeting, arranged by the BBC, which will be shown on Tuesday. Mr. Neely, who has served as the president of the Houston chapter of Iraq Veterans Against the War, says his time at Guantánamo now haunts him, and has granted confessional-style interviews about the abuses he says he witnessed there. In a message to Mr. Rasul, Mr. Neely apologized for his role in the imprisonment.

Gavin Lee, a BBC correspondent, learned about the Facebook messages from Mr. Rasul, who lives in Britain, and thought the situation was incredible. Mr. Lee tracked down Mr. Neely — on Facebook, naturally — and asked, “would you consider meeting face to face?”

“He thought about it and he said, ‘I would love to,’ ” Mr. Lee recalled last week. “I would love to apologize in person.”

It took months to find a time, however, and Mr. Rasul was uncertain. He told the BBC that some members of his family had said to him, “Why do you want to meet someone like that for? The way he treated you, you stay away from him.”

The BBC paid for Mr. Neely’s flight to London last month, where a camera crew filmed him meeting Mr. Rasul and a second former detainee, Ruhal Ahmed, on a Saturday afternoon. (Both men have pursued legal action against former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld.)

The cameras were there for a second conversation the morning before Mr. Neely’s flight home to Houston. “To see it happen was extraordinary,” Mr. Lee said.

In a segment that will be telecast on Tuesday’s “BBC World News America,” Mr. Ahmed is shown saying to Mr. Neely, “You look different without your cap.”

“You look different in jumpsuits,” Mr. Neely responds. BRIAN STELTER

[Dave B]

Maybe one day the remaining inmates will either be charged and put on trial, or released. Stranger things have happenned.

[GridGirl]

Ruhal Ahmed was one of the so called Tipton Taliban which is only a couple of miles away from where I live. I feel for the poor prison guard if he visited Tipton as not many people make it out of the so called 'lost city'. I remeber when it came out about them as it caused a massive fallout in the area. All he predominantely white benefits scroungers were all scared to death about getting found out with the extra media and police coverage of the place. The BNP has thrived there ever since.

[christophulus]

I'm watching it on Newsnight at the moment. It's certainly an unusual sight, and they seem to genuinely forgive the guard too. Nice to see.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Yet another illustration of how the world is screwed up these days.

I see nothing wrong with reconciling with your enemies. We all are human beings, after all. But officially apologizing to somebody who plotted to attack your country and murder your fellow countrymen is downright stupid.

In any case, if you want to reconcile with your enemies, it is something deeply personal. Showing it on TV demiostrates lack of personal integrity. Or is it just a search of cheap publicity?

I feel sorry for the people Neely served with. They must feel betrayed.

[Eki]

Yet another illustration of how the world is screwed up these days.

I see nothing wrong with reconciling with your enemies. We all are human beings, after all. But officially apologizing to somebody who plotted to attack your country and murder your fellow countrymen is downright stupid.

Those two were found innocent and released. You don't see anything wrong in keeping innocent people imprisoned for 2.5 years?

[Dave B]

But officially apologizing to somebody who plotted to attack your country and murder your fellow countrymen is downright stupid.
The two men were apparently distributing aid. You may or may not choose to believe them, but as they have never been convicted (despite there being plenty of opportunity over two years in captivity) one has to accept their innocence.

I'm sure there are plenty of people in Gitmo who are guilty of many things, and if that's the case then the full force of the law should come down on them. Sadly the US doesn't seem to think it has a duty to give those people a fair trial, so we may never know.

In many cultures the USA's actions would be classfied as war crimes. Funny old world.


I feel sorry for the people Neely served with. They must feel betrayed.

I feel sorry for the guard, he was betrayed by his superiors and ultimately his country. He was told that he was guarding evil terrorist plotters and had no reason to disbelieve that. Turns out he was guarding a couple of aid workers. Oh how he must have laughed... :s

[Rudy Tamasz]

Those two were found innocent and released. You don't see anything wrong in keeping innocent people imprisoned for 2.5 years?

Eki, it's about time you start distingushing finer shades of things. Having your enemy convicted is one thing, making your moral judgement on him is another and apologizing to him is yet another.

[Eki]

Eki, it's about time you start distingushing finer shades of things. Having your enemy convicted is one thing, making your moral judgement on him is another and apologizing to him is yet another.
In what way were those two the guard's enemies if they were innocent aid workers from the UK?

[Dave B]

Rudy, why do you believe those two men were "enemies" of America?

They were arrested (fair enough) then held for over two years, during which time they were questioned - it fair to assume harshly - then still after all that released. They were never convicted - don't confuse their (illegal?) incarceration with a prison sentence.

Do you honestly think that if there'd been a shred of evidence against them they'd be walking the streets now; when others are still locked up having never even been told what they're supposed to have done, let alone been charged or put on trial?

[Rudy Tamasz]

I don't think people got to Gitmo for no reason. They were aid workers? I work in that field and can tell you how complicated it is. There is a lot of nasty things being done under the pretext of providing aid. Being a foreig aid worker coming to a certain country and generously distributing something to locals is a good cover for anything.

[Dave B]

That's fair enough, and I don't doubt that there are many at Gitmo who have used respectable occupations as fronts for all manner of criminal and terrorist activity. But I repeat: if that's the case they should be charged and put on trial.

Do you seriously believe that after two and a half years of captivity and questioning (questioning which, by the way, would have been maybe a tad harsher than your average police constable talking to a burglar) failed to provide evidence of wrongdoing, these two men should still be regarded as enemies?

[Rudy Tamasz]

Dave, let us not mix legal stuff and personal attitudes. Legal evidence or the absence thereof is not the ultimate factor in making personal judgements.

The court failed to nail O.J. Simpson with conclusive evidence but we all know who committed that murder. Nelson Mandela spent about 25 years in prison but everybody knew he was innocent.

If I were that guard, chances are I would have somewhat warmed up to the detainees just as human beings in a difficult situation, no matter what they did. I would think twice to apologize to them. And I would certainly never make a cheap TV show out of it.

[Dave B]

Dave, let us not mix legal stuff and personal attitudes. Legal evidence or the absence thereof is not the ultimate factor in making personal judgements.
Ah, the old "they must have been up to something" defence. I see. So a military court clears them despite having had over two years to gather evidence but -nudge nudge wink wink - they just look guilty.

Riiiiiiight... :\

[Rudy Tamasz]

I also recall one old story. The American guard of Hermann Goering helped him have cyanide smuggled into his cell and commit suicide to avoid hanging pole. Despite all the evidence produced at the Nuremberg trial that guard befirended Goering and believed that he was ultimately a nice guy who didn't deserve execution.

[odykas]

Yet another thread for uncle fousto :p

[Mark in Oshawa]

There was a story recently of a British muslim who was an inmate there and he was cleared in 2006 of any wrong doing. He apparently had to wait 3 years due to paperwork issues, and not even his family knew of his status..

Quite unbelievable really.. :)

On the length of time to figure out who was what, I think the critics of Gitmo have a point. That said, this guard wasn't betrayed by his country; it wasn't for him to be the judge and jury on the guilt of these two. The only thing the US was guilty of was being slow to give these two a trial. In the end...they were LET GO. Cross the line in a place like Iran, or say China, and see where due process gets you. WHAT due process????

Gitmo was a bad idea in the sense it didn't get on with figuring out who was the terrorist, who wasn't and giving people trials. It wasn't however the second coming of a Gulag or Bergen Belsen either.

[Tomi]

Cross the line in a place like Iran, or say China, and see where due process gets you. WHAT due process????

Now you finally found proper countries, to what compaire the legal system with, I bet everyone agree.
A little same when I was talking with people in Cambodja, a few said Pol Pot was more evil than Bush or Hitler because he murded his own people.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Now you finally found proper countries, to what compaire the legal system with, I bet everyone agree.
A little same when I was talking with people in Cambodja, a few said Pol Pot was more evil than Bush or Hitler because he murded his own people.

Bush isn't deserving to be compared with Hitler. Hitler is with Pol Pot. You think all those Jews he killed were not German? A LOT of them were.

Bush was an elected politician who prosecuted two wars with the FULL Congress giving him the power to DO so. IN the 8 years he was in elected office, he ran no concentration camps, didn't toss anyone in an oven, and while you may or may not support Iraq and Afghanistan, if Bush is the war crimiinal, then so are all the members of the Congress who gave him this power, including one Barack Obama. So Get your argument refined and tuned to the people who do REAL evil, as opposed to political games.

[Eki]

The only thing the US was guilty of was being slow to give these two a trial.
And keeping in inhuman conditions people whose alleged crimes were not confirmed. Somebody mentioned OJ Simpson. I bet they didn't keep him in a prison camp for 2.5 years waiting for his trial. I bet he was on bail and walked free.

[Mark in Oshawa]

And keeping in inhuman conditions people whose alleged crimes were not confirmed. Somebody mentioned OJ Simpson. I bet they didn't keep him in a prison camp for 2.5 years waiting for his trial. I bet he was on bail and walked free.

He was a US citizen...he has rights. These guys were not even natives of Afghanistan, fighting without a uniform outside of the Geneva convention. They just as easily could have been shot where they were found....

[Eki]

He was a US citizen...he has rights. These guys were not even natives of Afghanistan, fighting without a uniform outside of the Geneva convention. They just as easily could have been shot where they were found....
Except it seems that those two guys weren't fighting. They were British citizens on an aid mission in a foreign country.

Does this mean that every country has the right to kidnap who ever they want from another country and treat them like sh!t? Or is it just the US? If international laws say nothing about that, I bet the human rights declaration does.

Is it OK for some guerrilla groups to kidnap aid workers in, let's say Africa or Latin America?

[F1boat]

Bush isn't deserving to be compared with Hitler. Hitler is with Pol Pot. You think all those Jews he killed were not German? A LOT of them were.

Bush was an elected politician who prosecuted two wars with the FULL Congress giving him the power to DO so. IN the 8 years he was in elected office, he ran no concentration camps, didn't toss anyone in an oven, and while you may or may not support Iraq and Afghanistan, if Bush is the war crimiinal, then so are all the members of the Congress who gave him this power, including one Barack Obama. So Get your argument refined and tuned to the people who do REAL evil, as opposed to political games.

Hitler too was elected, but I agree that, OF COURSE, W. is no Hitler. Hitler is one of the foulest creatures ever to exist, up there with Mao, Stalin and Kim-whatever.
However this is to say that because a viper is less poisonous than a cobra, it is not venomous. Bush was a very dangerous man who started a useless war which ended with tears and spectacularly high prizes. He left the world and economic crisis, an illegal prison, a higly aggravated part of the world (the Arabs) and a united and powerful group of proud and fierce Biblical talibans who almost elected a loonie like Palin as a vice president. So IMO he was a catastrophe. Not an apocalypse like the biggest dictators, not even close, of course! But a very bad president. I was very relieved when Obama won. The GOP still scares the hell out of me.

[chuck34]

And keeping in inhuman conditions people whose alleged crimes were not confirmed. Somebody mentioned OJ Simpson. I bet they didn't keep him in a prison camp for 2.5 years waiting for his trial. I bet he was on bail and walked free.

You're right Eki, it wasn't 2.5 years that OJ was in jail. It was just over a year (or about that, I don't remember the exact time). He was not grainted bail because he was a flight risk, just like these guys. Are you seriously suggesting that we let these guys out on bail?

You see this is the problem. People keep treating Gitmo like any regular prison, that these guys are like petty thiefs, just waiting for their trial. THEY ARE NOT. They are PRISONERS OF WAR. There is a HUGE difference between criminals and prisoners of war, they don't have the same rights and privileges.

Perhaps you and I might think that some of the interogations might have been a bit tough, but by no means was everyone there waterboarded. And by no means is waterboarding torture. If you want to know about how waterboarding is torture, look up how the Japaneese did it during WWII.

[Eki]

You see this is the problem. People keep treating Gitmo like any regular prison, that these guys are like petty thiefs, just waiting for their trial. THEY ARE NOT. They are PRISONERS OF WAR. There is a HUGE difference between criminals and prisoners of war, they don't have the same rights and privileges. WWII.

Those two were civilians and British citizens. How can they be prisoners of war? Is the US in war against Britain?

Do you remeber that American Taliban? He got his day in court almost immediately and he was guilty. He didn't have to wait for 2.5 years. Apparently there were different rules for American Talibans and British aid workers.

[Eki]

Perhaps you and I might think that some of the interogations might have been a bit tough, but by no means was everyone there waterboarded. And by no means is waterboarding torture. If you want to know about how waterboarding is torture, look up how the Japaneese did it during WWII.
Yes, the US was a saint. They only put those Japanese civilians in prison camps who happened to be in the US, they didn't go snatch them from Japan.

[chuck34]

Those two were civilians and British citizens. How can they be prisoners of war? Is the US in war against Britain?

Do you remeber that American Taliban? He got his day in court almost immediately and he was guilty. He didn't have to wait for 2.5 years. Apparently there were different rules for American Talibans and British aid workers.

Pretty much no one that has been caught on the battlefield in Afghanistan (make NO mistake, it is a battlefield) has been an Afghan citizen. It takes a while to sort out who some of these people are and what they were doing there. Sure 2.5 years may be too long, but I really don't know what hoops had to be jumped through to confirm their identities. The fact that these guys are British citizens (or anywhere else for that matter0 really has no bearing on anything. We are not at war with a country, but an ideology.

[chuck34]

Yes, the US was a saint. They only put those Japanese civilians in prison camps who happened to be in the US, they didn't go snatch them from Japan.

Not sure what you're drive at here Eki. Are you honestly trying to make a moral equivelency between our placing some Japaneese-Americans in camps (which we have apologized for) to the real waterboarding that Japaneese troops perpetrated on our soldiers.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Eki, not everyone scooped in Afghanistan was from the UK or Canada or anywhere else. I am sure if these guys knew that claiming UK citizenship would save their bacon, they would have all taken out accents like a Monty Python skit.

Geneva convention rules of war do NOT apply to combantants not in uniform or members of no official military unit. Most nations call the criminals on a good day, but when you are in a war zone, you are just a target. As I keep telling you, lesser nations than the Yanks wouldn't have taken prisoners, these guys would have been Buzzard bait and you would be complaining about something else Bush did.

[Hondo]

Hitler too was elected, but I agree that, OF COURSE, W. is no Hitler. Hitler is one of the foulest creatures ever to exist, up there with Mao, Stalin and Kim-whatever.
However this is to say that because a viper is less poisonous than a cobra, it is not venomous. Bush was a very dangerous man who started a useless war which ended with tears and spectacularly high prizes. He left the world and economic crisis, an illegal prison, a higly aggravated part of the world (the Arabs) and a united and powerful group of proud and fierce Biblical talibans who almost elected a loonie like Palin as a vice president. So IMO he was a catastrophe. Not an apocalypse like the biggest dictators, not even close, of course! But a very bad president. I was very relieved when Obama won. The GOP still scares the hell out of me.

Just a bit of re-education here. The current financial crisis is alleged to have come about due to the collapse of huge numbers of home mortgages literally given to people who did not quailify for them under normal circumstances. Two government corporations Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae were constantly forced by the Democratic Party to loosen the qualifications so that just about anybody could get a loan on a house, even though they wouldn't even be able to afford the monthly payments. The managers of the corporations received huge bonuses based on the number of mortgages issued in total, not just good mortgages. It was nothing more than that Democratic, socialistic feel good crap "every body deserves their own home" and by the way, vote for us crap. Pressure was also brought to bear on private companies and banks to do the same. Republican calls for audits and more oversight were dismissed as unnecessary, and in the case of the Congressional Black Caucus, racist in nature. Huge bundles of these mortgages were bundled with other debts and sold in packages through out the world. Bam, as foreclosures escalated, all of a sudden the world realized these packages were not assets, merely worthless paper. Down we go. Sorry, but I had to tell you that so you could understand this.

Government investigations of the sort required for the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac level have to be called for and instigated by the Congress. At the time all this was going on, when it became news, and at this moment the Congress is controlled by the Democratic Party. If there was the smallest chance in hell that the blame for any of this could be laid at the feet of George Bush and the Republican Party, Congress would be jumping up and down screaming for an investigation, screaming for heads, and screaming for blood.

The fact that the Democratic party refuses to call for an investigation and in fact, doesn't want to talk about the issue at all should tell you where the blame belongs.

[Eki]

Pretty much no one that has been caught on the battlefield in Afghanistan (make NO mistake, it is a battlefield) has been an Afghan citizen. It takes a while to sort out who some of these people are and what they were doing there. Sure 2.5 years may be too long, but I really don't know what hoops had to be jumped through to confirm their identities. The fact that these guys are British citizens (or anywhere else for that matter0 really has no bearing on anything. We are not at war with a country, but an ideology.
Isn't Britain at war with that same ideology? Why didn't the US hand out the British citizens to Britain and let them sort them out themselves?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Isn't Britain at war with that same ideology? Why didn't the US hand out the British citizens to Britain and let them sort them out themselves?

They should have. That said, I didn't see the British gov't breaking off diplomatic relations because they had some level of trust that the US gov't was at least going to give this detainee some form of fair trial through the military justice system. The American's only great crime is the stupid length of time it was taking to get these guys to trial. Canada has a detainee there too....and our government didn't do anything to get him out when the Libreals were in power, and hasn't done anything to pressure the US to let him out with the Conservatives in power. Should they? That is the debate here....but no one here is thinking he is being tortured...he merely is in prison.

[Eki]

As I keep telling you, lesser nations than the Yanks wouldn't have taken prisoners, these guys would have been Buzzard bait and you would be complaining about something else Bush did.
Lesser wrong isn't right, it's still wrong. I don't understand why some use as an excuse the fact that someone else is even worse.

[Hondo]

If it had been me, I would have put them on aircraft to fly them home. Halfway over the Atlantic I would have informed them that Allah would like to see them all outside and cheerfully helped them to exit the aircraft. Any questions upon landing would have been met with a shrug of the shoulders and a "Gee, I don't know, they were ok when they got off the plane..." and left at that.

This is the game they started. By their choice there are no rules of play except those, to their absolute delight, insisted upon by the armchair moralists of their sworn enemy. If you were to get into the field and talk to the people affected by these criminals, you'll quickly learn there is nothing noble about them at all. You don't hear about all the bombings and killings, but every now and then a story will slip through and you'll wonder "why would they put a car bomb there?" It's because Abu hasn't, just like real organized crime, paid al-Qaeda their protective insurance premiums for awhile. It's kind of like poker. There are a lot of different ways to play the game but regardless of how you play it back in East Jesus, these are the house rules here and this is how we play it here. I don't have a problem playing the game by al-Qaeda's house rules.

Stand up, hook up, shuffle to the door....lol...Geronimo!

[Eki]

This is the game they started.

Who started? The British aid workers?

[Eki]

You don't hear about all the bombings and killings, but every now and then a story will slip through and you'll wonder "why would they put a car bomb there?"
I don't have to wonder, I know. It's because of the Israeli and American actions in the Middle East, and now in Afghanistan and Pakistan too.

[Hondo]

Who started? The British aid workers?

Got to be more careful about who you hang out with. Find somebody else to give aid to. Aiding the criminal element has always been risky business.

[Hondo]

I don't have to wonder, I know. It's because of the Israeli and American actions in the Middle East, and now in Afghanistan and Pakistan too.

These fools were killing each other long before the US even knew there was a Middle East.

[Eki]

Canada has a detainee there too....and our government didn't do anything to get him out when the Libreals were in power, and hasn't done anything to pressure the US to let him out with the Conservatives in power. Should they? That is the debate here....but no one here is thinking he is being tortured...he merely is in prison.
I know the feeling. Our government don't want to rock the boat with the US either, just like they don't want to rock the boat with Russia or China.

[Eki]

These fools were killing each other long before the US even knew there was a Middle East.

But it wasn't enough for the US, who wanted to go there and kill them too.

[Hondo]

But it wasn't enough for the US, who wanted to go there and kill them too.

When you're a big country you kind of have an obligation to kill some everywhere or folks begin to feel left out and discriminated against. It's a might makes right kind of thing.

[Hondo]

I know the feeling. Our government don't want to rock the boat with the US either, just like they don't want to rock the boat with Russia or China.

Your government is afraid to rock the boat with Sweden. Just think about how lucky you are to live in a country that has nothing that anybody wants or can't get somewhere else.

[Eki]

Your government is afraid to rock the boat with Sweden.
Maybe, but I don't see any reason to rock the boat with Sweden. They are even bigger do-gooders than Finland.


Just think about how lucky you are to live in a country that has nothing that anybody wants or can't get somewhere else.
True, except I kind of envy Norway. They are about the same size and have oil, and nobody has invaded them yet.

[Hondo]

Thats because oil is just as easy to get elsewhere. Being a white or, Nordic if you prefer, European nation doesn't hurt either.

[Eki]

Thats because oil is just as easy to get elsewhere. Being a white or, Nordic if you prefer, European nation doesn't hurt either.
Also letting the US military train in Norway voluntarily doesn't hurt either. No need to invade.

[chuck34]

Who started? The British aid workers?

Yes Eki, the British aid workers started it. Come on, I know you are trying to be some sort of Devil's Advocate, but Christ man, you have totally lost the plot here. Your blatent refusal to show any sort of reason is REALLY old, and I'm about done trying to have a discussion with you. If you would at the very least conceed a point every now and then (in this case, that these guys were in the wrong place at the wrong time), then perhaps you would be seen as less of a joke around here.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It's Eki's line of thought. The US is invading any nation with oil so the French and the Russians can take over the oil industry (Iraq). Maybe they are invading Venezuela next ? (Chavez and Eki might be the only two that think so). Still better, I am waiting for them to invade Canada. IN this down time, the trip is cheaper......no messy over the ocean stuff.

[airshifter]

It's Eki's line of thought. The US is invading any nation with oil so the French and the Russians can take over the oil industry (Iraq). Maybe they are invading Venezuela next ? (Chavez and Eki might be the only two that think so). Still better, I am waiting for them to invade Canada. IN this down time, the trip is cheaper......no messy over the ocean stuff.

Actually, in light of the poor US economy, the plan was to avoid the military invasion entirely. I was supposed to come up and discuss it with you over a beer, and make clear that as far as the US was concerned, Canada remained free to do whatever it wanted with the oil.

However I was greeted at the border by an unruly mod chanting "No beer for oil!"

I am awaiting further instruction from the US government on how to proceed.

[F1boat]

Actually, in light of the poor US economy, the plan was to avoid the military invasion entirely.

HOPE SO. No more wars, please :(

[Rudy Tamasz]

Yet another thread that veered off the topic. :\

[Mark in Oshawa]

Actually, in light of the poor US economy, the plan was to avoid the military invasion entirely. I was supposed to come up and discuss it with you over a beer, and make clear that as far as the US was concerned, Canada remained free to do whatever it wanted with the oil.

However I was greeted at the border by an unruly mod chanting "No beer for oil!"

I am awaiting further instruction from the US government on how to proceed.

C'mon up on your own...we can discuss how you can do business. Rumour has it you Yanks don't invade countries any more to get the oil, since it isn't required....