Briatore lifetime ban back on? [Archive]

PSfan

11th January 2010, 22:27

Risking other peoples life deserves some little banning.

So when will we be able to watch racing again? when its all remote control, when its all virtual race cars/video gaming? There will always be risks to peoples lives in professional racing, does everyone deserve a little banning?

I really wish everyone would stop with the absurd notion that the ban can be related to safety issues, of all of PQ jr's crashes, singapore is likely one of the least dangerous of his career.

And now with the fia moving forward with their appeal, it just goes to show that even with Todt in charge, things are probably not gonna get any better in regards to FIA ruling.

CNR

11th January 2010, 22:44

http://www.banburycake.co.uk/sport/4845263.FIA_to_launch_Briatore_appeal/

FIA, are to appeal against last week's decision of the Tribunal de Grande Instance, who ordered the overturning of a lifetime ban from motorsport imposed on former Renault F1 team principal Flavio Briatore.

the Federation clearly feel they are duty-bound to contest the TGI's decision in light of the seriousness of Briatore's offence in putting another person's life at risk.

Mia 01

11th January 2010, 22:48

So when will we be able to watch racing again? when its all remote control, when its all virtual race cars/video gaming? There will always be risks to peoples lives in professional racing, does everyone deserve a little banning?

I really wish everyone would stop with the absurd notion that the ban can be related to safety issues, of all of PQ jr's crashes, singapore is likely one of the least dangerous of his career.

And now with the fia moving forward with their appeal, it just goes to show that even with Todt in charge, things are probably not gonna get any better in regards to FIA ruling.
Fixed races who risks other life is OK then?

Helicon_One

11th January 2010, 22:49

So when will we be able to watch racing again? when its all remote control, when its all virtual race cars/video gaming? There will always be risks to peoples lives in professional racing, does everyone deserve a little banning?

I really wish everyone would stop with the absurd notion that the ban can be related to safety issues, of all of PQ jr's crashes, singapore is likely one of the least dangerous of his career.

There's a difference between the 'random chance' danger that every driver (and marshall, and spectator) faces in motor racing, and deliberately creating danger with a premeditated crash.

garyshell

11th January 2010, 22:54

PSfan

11th January 2010, 23:13

Fixed races who risks other life is OK then?

No, I am saying its stupid to use the safety issue as a crutch. People are P'oed because it was successful, had Alonso's engine or transmission blew up, or he crashed or whatever else could have happened to cause a different result we wouldn't be having this discussion.

anthonyvop

11th January 2010, 23:17

I want justice and equality.

Saint Senna wasn't banned for his much more dangerous actions.

McLaren wasn't banned for committing multiple felonies.

PSfan

11th January 2010, 23:20

There's a difference between the 'random chance' danger that every driver (and marshall, and spectator) faces in motor racing, and deliberately creating danger with a premeditated crash.

I agree, there should be far less danger involved in a controlled crash, then a "random chance" crash where the driver has no control...

And food for thought, who's to say that NP wouldn't have had a more serious "life threatening" accident later in the event had he not crashed himself out when he did?

Mia 01

11th January 2010, 23:20

No, I am saying its stupid to use the safety issue as a crutch. People are P'oed because it was successful, had Alonso's engine or transmission blew up, or he crashed or whatever else could have happened to cause a different result we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Fixing races which endangers other life is the OK.

Please talk to someone.

Sonic

11th January 2010, 23:20

Amen. In my active days I was unfortunate enough to loose a wheel at speed. The wheel cleared the catch fencing and narrowly missed two spectators before (thankfully) harmlessly coming to rest in the access tunnel under the track. I can't imagine doing anything like that on purpose - I had flashbacks for weeks even though it was simply an accident. How Briatore et all sleeps at night is a mystery to me.

speeddurango

11th January 2010, 23:38

Cheating by risking deliberately is not acceptable under the pretext of "racing is risky in nature".

PSfan

11th January 2010, 23:56

Fixing races which endangers other life is the OK.

Please talk to someone.

Who's lives where endangered? Have you even considered where NP crashed? speed etc etc... I just pulled out the race, and to suggest ANY danger involved in that accident is just plain silly!!!

Mia 01

12th January 2010, 00:02

Who's lives where endangered? Have you even considered where NP crashed? speed etc etc... I just pulled out the race, and to suggest ANY danger involved in that accident is just plain silly!!!

You mean fixing races when PROBABLY no other lifes is in danger is OK?

Place yourself in that situation if you are able to imagine.

PSfan

12th January 2010, 00:12

You mean fixing races when PROBABLY no other lifes is in danger is OK?

Place yourself in that situation if you are able to imagine.

What life/lives where in danger?!?!

When will you be honest and admit that your more pissed about the race fixing then the supposed danger that was involved...

Mia 01

12th January 2010, 00:16

What life/lives where in danger?!?!

When will you be honest and admit that your more pissed about the race fixing then the supposed danger that was involved...

Why is you a member of a F1 board when you think it´s OK to risk peoples life when cheatring?

PSfan

12th January 2010, 00:29

Why is you a member of a F1 board when you think it´s OK to risk peoples life when cheatring?

And you continue to miss my point... No one was at risk due to NPs crash!

And how can you watch F1 at all if you thought NPs crash was dangerous, or life threatening...

Valve Bounce

12th January 2010, 00:39

Any serious crash that leaves a trail of debris across a racing track does pose a certain degree of danger. It is possible for a following car to have a puncture as a result of running over the debris and maybe even cause it to crash.
The point here is that it was a deliberate and calculated crash, planned over a long period of time rather than a spur of the moment incident. It was also calculated as a race fixing procedure to enable another member of the team to win.

When considered in its overall context, this is a very serious offence. However, many here are objecting to the way that the FIA/Max dealt with it and I think this is the way the French court saw it. One could say that justice was dispensed by a Kangaroo Court. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangaroo_court

Valve Bounce

12th January 2010, 01:06

Having said all that, the race fixing issue is another matter. Betting on the outcome of F1 races is very big in many parts of the world. (As is horse racing).
I would not be surprised if some of the venues where F1 races are held would impose a summary ban on Flav irrespective of the final outcome of his appeal(s).
Jockey/Racing Clubs in many parts of the world have banned certain characters who the ascertain as unsavoury from their venues without so much as a hearing. In like manner, Flav may find himself barred from certain tracks where F1 rces are held. On top of all this, and as I have posted earlier on this topic, it would take a very brave and foolish Flav to fly into Singapore or even stop over at Changi - he may find himself detained for quite a lengthy period and then charged with race fixing.

Easy Drifter

12th January 2010, 01:09

CNR

12th January 2010, 02:31

And you continue to miss my point... No one was at risk due to NPs crash!

take a look at massa's accident and rember that it was the first night race then post this (I WAS WRONG)

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1809629/singapore_gp_2008_start_of_the_race/

PSfan

12th January 2010, 02:47

Any serious crash that leaves a trail of debris across a racing track does pose a certain degree of danger. It is possible for a following car to have a puncture as a result of running over the debris and maybe even cause it to crash.

After reviewing the crash in its entirety, it looked to me that most if not all the debris from the crash was off the racing line. NP basically exited a slow corner, gave full throttle spun out and backed into the wall farthest from the racing line...

The point here is that it was a deliberate and calculated crash, planned over a long period of time rather than a spur of the moment incident. It was also calculated as a race fixing procedure to enable another member of the team to win.

Which of course comes back to my argument that people are offended by the race fixing, but hiding behind the moral high ground of safety. If I pointed to that accident and said someone should be banned because that was dangerous, I don't think I could call myself a race fan... This isn't to say there shouldn't be some form of punishment due to the race fixing aspect of it.

When considered in its overall context, this is a very serious offence. However, many here are objecting to the way that the FIA/Max dealt with it and I think this is the way the French court saw it. One could say that justice was dispensed by a Kangaroo Court. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangaroo_court

One has to wonder if they had given Briatore the same 5 year ban as Symonds, it would have amounted to a life time anyway because it still would have been difficult for him to return, and less likely he would have fought it.

Also considering this: The FIA has lifted the restrictions imposed on Nigel Stepney and Mike Coughlan following the 2007 espionage case, president Max Mosley has revealed.

Although the governing body could not impose formal punishment against the pair over their involvement in the 2007 spy case between McLaren and Ferrari, it did recommend to its licence holders that they should be wary of working with either of them until July 2009.

supposedly taken from here: http://www.autosport.com/subs/login.php?r=http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73154&type=news&id=73154

Looks like the kanagaroo court forgot about its own precedents...

leopard

12th January 2010, 03:09

Watching your post count go up and up and up is most entertaining, keep it up bro.. ;)
bro?... nice then... ;)

leopard

12th January 2010, 03:15

I think Valve is right.
I also think we will see over the next few weeks posturing by the FIA and Flav then somehow there will be a settlement with Flav banned for 3 to 5 years, but allowed to continue as a Mgr. for drivers.
Just how this is done and what variations of it is yet to be seen.
Please note I am not taking anyone's side in this.

5 years, isn't it too long? I doubt Flav still has enough passion to return the sport, we don't even know that the sport still exists after 2012...

PSfan

12th January 2010, 03:29

take a look at massa's accident and rember that it was the first night race then post this (I WAS WRONG)

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1809629/singapore_gp_2008_start_of_the_race/

My god your right, I hadn't realized that someone would post up a video of the race with iron maiden music to it because of NPs crash... very dangerous indeed, who knows how many deaths can now be attributed to this race fixing scandal!!!

Thunderbolt, can you cut to the chase here, this metacafe link is very taxing on my dial-up and seeing as I have the whole race on DVD I can que up any time can you just tell me what to look for?

Oh but if your implying that Ferrari releasing Massa during their first pitstop is a result of NPs crash, then maybe we should Lobby the FIA for a formal apology for handing massa a drive threw penalty for the incident, clearly it was Nelson's fault...

Valve Bounce

12th January 2010, 04:01

Any crash against a wall alongside a track could potentially be dangerous, not only to the driver but to other drivers as well as spectators. That Jr managed to crash his car where no person was injured does not make it an acceptable procedure to fix a race, or to not take any action against those who planned this operation.

Carbon fibre has a habit of splintering into small sharp fragments, and anyone of these could have caused a puncture, or even been projected towards a marshal or spectator, causing serious injury. That it did not was in no way due to any forward planning of Flav, I would say.

I am not saying that Flav should not be banned from F1 - on the contrary; I feel that he should be kicked out of F1. The only regret I have is that this was not done by a properly constituted hearing according to FIA procedures. Just so that everyone knows where I stand.

garyshell

12th January 2010, 04:47

And you continue to miss my point... No one was at risk due to NPs crash!

What a stinking load of horse excrement! How can you possibly plan ANY sort of crash without any risk to the safety of other competitors, spectators or workers? Sure, as it turned out no one else was put at risk, but there was no way to insure that ahead of time. How were they to know what would happen to any debris? You argument is so full of holes.

Gary

garyshell

12th January 2010, 04:51

After reviewing the crash in its entirety, it looked to me that most if not all the debris from the crash was off the racing line. NP basically exited a slow corner, gave full throttle spun out and backed into the wall farthest from the racing line...

"most if not all"... pathetic!

Gary

CNR

12th January 2010, 07:01

My god your right, I hadn't realized that someone would post up a video of the race with iron maiden music to it because of NPs crash... very dangerous indeed, who knows how many deaths can now be attributed to this race fixing scandal!!!

Thunderbolt, can you cut to the chase here, this metacafe link is very taxing on my dial-up and seeing as I have the whole race on DVD I can que up any time can you just tell me what to look for?

Oh but if your implying that Ferrari releasing Massa during their first pitstop is a result of NPs crash, then maybe we should Lobby the FIA for a formal apology for handing massa a drive threw penalty for the incident, clearly it was Nelson's fault...

the video shows how FUC**n dark it was and how much harder it would have been for the other cars or track marshals to see small bits of carbon fiber just lucky that none of the cars got a puncture as they went past the crash site lap after lap

Ferrari releasing Massa you (Insult) massa was all most killed because of bits flying of a car

PSfan

12th January 2010, 07:06

What a stinking load of horse excrement! How can you possibly plan ANY sort of crash without any risk to the safety of other competitors, spectators or workers? Sure, as it turned out no one else was put at risk, but there was no way to insure that ahead of time. How were they to know what would happen to any debris? You argument is so full of holes.

Gary

Geez... Nelson Piquet jr, managed to crash his car at a relatively low rate of speed, with concrete walls that where higher then his rear wing in a manner that no one got hurt... so obviously that couldn't have been part of the plan right?

But, if you are going to say this was dangerous because of the potential dangers, then why are you watching racing at all!!! It's inherently dangerous, people crash all the time. To suggest an intentional crash adds more danger to an already dangerous sport is absurd.

"most if not all"... pathetic!

Gary

Because they zoomed in on NPs car to the point its impossible to see the racing line after his car came to a stop its difficult to determine how big of a debris field he left, however based on the distance NP traveled after the impact, its safe to say he likely didn't get much debris on the racing line, and anything he would have left behind would have been cleaned up during the SC period...

PSfan

12th January 2010, 07:49

the video shows how FUC**n dark it was and how much harder it would have been for the other cars or track marshals to see small bits of carbon fiber just lucky that none of the cars got a puncture as they went past the crash site lap after lap

You joking right?!?! That video shows F-all, the contrast is f'd to the point you can barely make out the cars shadows driving around. There was plenty of light. There was so much f'n light that everyone Peter Windsor interviewed could have have benefited from some powder. It was so f'n dark, Briatore had to wear sunglasses... When I watch the race on TV, and can see leaves, and little tiny garbage and stuff being blow around by the passing cars. It was not to dark for the marshals to see the carbon fiber bits, and even if the could see it... brooms work very well, and thats besides the point, where NP crash I don't believe the was any.

Ferrari releasing Massa you (Insult) massa was all most killed because of bits flying of a car

Do you have any recollection of Massa dragging 1/2 his refueling hose down pit lane?!?

oh and thanks for the (insult) It would seem that it is far more dangerous to not properly secure parts to a car, then to intentional crash a car... thanks for bringing that up...

Dave B

12th January 2010, 09:18

And you continue to miss my point... No one was at risk due to NPs crash!

And how can you watch F1 at all if you thought NPs crash was dangerous, or life threatening...
Rubbish. Utter hogwash. Nobody could have predicted how Piquet's car would have reacted: it could easily have bounced back onto the racing line, any component could have come loose and taken any trajectory. The fact that nobody was injured is pure and simple luck.

Worse incidents happen all the time, of course, but the difference is that they are not caused deliberately.

The FIA were absolutely correct to ban Briatore for life, their mistake was to go about the process in a ham-fisted and vindictive way which left them wide open for an appeal.

Sonic

12th January 2010, 09:33

I'm trying to understand your viewpoint PSFan, really, I am. But IMO you are proceeding along a line of logic which is flawed. All of your arguments are based on the facts of what occured after the event; and yes, no wheels weree knocked off, carbon fibre fragments were mostly off line etc etc.

However my position (and by the looks of it, the majority share it) is that there is no such thing as a controlled crash - ask any stunt driver. Had PK backed into the wall at a different angle or been going 6kph faster parts could well of made it onto the racing line.

Yes, Motor racing is dangerous but we do not need to deliberately place rivals, hard working marshalls or spectators at risk.

SGWilko

12th January 2010, 10:17

even with Todt in charge

Between you and me and the gatepost, I don't really think he is.......

SGWilko

12th January 2010, 10:20

Fixing races which endangers other life is the OK.

Please talk to someone.

Sufficient proof of who actually fixed the race is yet to be shown without clear doubt. It's been pinned on Flav's door, but look at who had immunity in the sham trial - everyone (almost) but Flav.

Leaves a foul taste....

ozrevhead

12th January 2010, 12:31

Rubbish. Utter hogwash. Nobody could have predicted how Piquet's car would have reacted: it could easily have bounced back onto the racing line, any component could have come loose and taken any trajectory. The fact that nobody was injured is pure and simple luck.

Worse incidents happen all the time, of course, but the difference is that they are not caused deliberately.

The FIA were absolutely correct to ban Briatore for life, their mistake was to go about the process in a ham-fisted and vindictive way which left them wide open for an appeal.
Agree 10000 times over - some are glossing over the seriousness of what happened because 'no one got hurt'

FIA needed to challenge this ruling otherwise every rule they have set have been made irrelevent and redundant

what the need to do is open everything that happened in their inital investigation from what evidence they had through to the identity of witness x and what he/she had

Bagwan

12th January 2010, 13:29

Let's look at some facts that support PSFan's assertion .

It was said that they looked at the track carefully , to decide where the act would be done .
The idea was to have a place on the track that would be difficult to clear , forcing a safety car .
That places track workers away from the possible debris field , because they would be running equipment meant to clear debris , and we know the choice was to do it where there were no cranes or openings in the walls .
No one knows whether or not safety of the workers was a factor in this decision , rather than just forcing decision a safety car , but it was certainly a result .

The point they chose was the slowest part of the track , and the simplest of maneouvers . As Jr pointed out in the track of his throttle , it was simple to keep the foot in .
It was simple , and , it certainly seemed , by his words , a decision that was not "life or death" , but rather , "crash or no job" .
And , for a year he was happy to keep the decision to himself .

You know , the idea isn't so much different to one driver blocking others to allow the other car to get away .
It's just that we can't get our heads around how far they will go to win .

They sacrificed a very expensive piece of kit , and got a win .
That win would still be one we would be talking about , but for other reasons , had Jr not grassed up his team .

As PSFan pointed out , nobody was hurt , and that is because it was done in a very cold , very calculated way .
We must assume that none involved would have risked anyone .

Nobody , not even Flav is that cold , or stupid .

Sonic

12th January 2010, 14:59

Dave B

12th January 2010, 15:37

Bagwan

12th January 2010, 15:47

A very reasoned statement bagwan, however I'll stick to my side of the fence on this issue. Watching the "accident" again, PK struck the outside wall first (I assume in error) that could of so easily spun him down the racing line instead and straight in the path of a rival.

Thank-you , Sonic .

It could have sent debris all over the track surface , but , as it was at the exit of a corner not well sighted , we must assume there would be marshalls with flags at the entry .
Unless someone was very close behind , too close to see the flag(s) on entry , it didn't really matter how far the debris field was spread .
As it was , it was designed to minimize this effect on the cars , and to maximize the chances for Alonso .

It did both in spades .

It seems that it was very well thought out .
I believe Jr also spun in the same place in practice .
Whether this was part of the ruse , or indeed if it prompted the idea has never been questioned , but Jr didn't mention it , so , indeed it may have been the seed .

Sonic

12th January 2010, 15:49

Briatore should remain banned, and despite his immunity Piquet's CV should never again include Formula One.

Agreed. Flav was team boss and therefore responsible for the conduct of those under him. PK is a little snot who was more than happy to do the deed when it kept him employed but spat the dummy when he was sacked for poor performances. He should be just as banned.

Bagwan

12th January 2010, 16:01

The only facts are that a racing car was deliberately crashed. Everything that happenned or did not happen after that was pure luck. I don't care how slowly or carefully Piquet may have driven into that wall, those actions deliberately introduced unnecessary risk to competitors, spectators and track workers.

Briatore should remain banned, and despite his immunity Piquet's CV should never again include Formula One.

"Pure luck" , Dave ?

There was risk to Jr in the crash , a risk he assessed as low in comparison to losing his job .
There was risk to the other competitors , in that they could have picked up a puncture , but they did not .
The crash was carefully orchestrated to make it difficult to clear , but this also meant that the cars were slowed at that point , and as debris was minimal on line , it shows how successful it was .

I don't like the idea , but it came off brilliantly until Jr opened his mouth .

garyshell

12th January 2010, 20:13

Geez... Nelson Piquet jr, managed to crash his car at a relatively low rate of speed, with concrete walls that where higher then his rear wing in a manner that no one got hurt... so obviously that couldn't have been part of the plan right?

But, if you are going to say this was dangerous because of the potential dangers, then why are you watching racing at all!!! It's inherently dangerous, people crash all the time. To suggest an intentional crash adds more danger to an already dangerous sport is absurd.

Oh please... just because everything went according to plan, makes it ok? Sure racing is dangerous, but INTENTIONAL creation of additional danger should NEVER be tolerated. The only thing absurd here is your suggestion that additional danger doesn't make it more dangerous. More danger is more danger any way you want to slice it.

Gary

garyshell

12th January 2010, 20:21

There was risk to the other competitors , in that they could have picked up a puncture , but they did not .

So that makes it OK? Just because there was no puncture makes it acceptable? Good grief man, what if some one HAD gotten a puncture? What then? Would it then be deemed a bad thing? What if that puncture lead to nothing other than the car going out of the race? Are we back on the OK side of the ledger again? What if that puncture lead to the death of a corner worker?

Do you REALLY want to play this game of situational ethics?

Are you proposing this for the first drivers meeting of the season: "OK, boys new rules: you can do whatever the hell you want out there as long as no one gets hurt."???

Gary

Valve Bounce

13th January 2010, 08:18

Sonic

13th January 2010, 09:04

OK! just let me ask to satisfy those who are uncertain:
" Does anyone hold the view that because nobody was injured in the pre-determined and well orchestrated race fixing crash that Flavio should be forgiven and should be re-instated into F1?"

No Flav, Pat and PK (and anyone else who was in on it) should be excluded from any FIA activity.

Dave B

13th January 2010, 09:25

Piquet Jnr's F1 career is over, at least for now. He's off to race NASCAR trucks. :wave:

SGWilko

13th January 2010, 09:37

Piquet Jnr's F1 career is over, at least for now. He's off to race NASCAR trucks. :wave:

Did is career ever get off to a proper start?

Dave B

13th January 2010, 09:49

Did is career ever get off to a proper start?
Depends who you believe. On one hand he had the opportunity of learning from a two-time world champion at one of the more experienced teams on the grid, with his own world-champion father as a mentor. Most rookies would kill for that experience.

Ask Piquet himself, however, and he'll tell you that he was merely a lackey for Alonso and never given a fair chance.

SGWilko

13th January 2010, 10:30

Depends who you believe. On one hand he had the opportunity of learning from a two-time world champion at one of the more experienced teams on the grid, with his own world-champion father as a mentor. Most rookies would kill for that experience.

Ask Piquet himself, however, and he'll tell you that he was merely a lackey for Alonso and never given a fair chance.

Well, do you expect Piquet Jnr to admit to be - at best - mediocre?

CNR

13th January 2010, 11:23

OK! just let me ask to satisfy those who are uncertain:
" Does anyone hold the view that because nobody was injured in the pre-determined and well orchestrated race fixing crash that Flavio should be forgiven and should be re-instated into F1?"

http://alltimegreats.net/mechanicsanddynamics.htm

an f1 car move around 55.56m/s and it took 2 seconds for the car to slide across the track

http://i50.tinypic.com/2dmgo5l.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/so8l1f.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/2iaqtfq.jpg

from start to end of crash took 5 seconds
http://i47.tinypic.com/2yxhc48.jpg

SGWilko

13th January 2010, 11:37

Of course, lest we forget, Grosjean did the same thing in practice in 2009. Did NPKJnr just F**k up, and concoct the plan to blame it on Flav?

I love a good conspiracy.

Bagwan

13th January 2010, 15:01

So that makes it OK? Just because there was no puncture makes it acceptable? Good grief man, what if some one HAD gotten a puncture? What then? Would it then be deemed a bad thing? What if that puncture lead to nothing other than the car going out of the race? Are we back on the OK side of the ledger again? What if that puncture lead to the death of a corner worker?

Do you REALLY want to play this game of situational ethics?

Are you proposing this for the first drivers meeting of the season: "OK, boys new rules: you can do whatever the hell you want out there as long as no one gets hurt."???

Gary

We have a sport here , Gary , that is inherently dangerous .

When Michael had a habit of swerving , they answered with a one-move rule .
It was deemed dangerous , and banned .
When he ruined , seemingly intentionally , other laps in qualifying at Monaco , they summarily sent him to the back from pole .

Has someone ever done this before , crashed intentionally to aid a team-mate ? We don't know , but the topic would likely have created as much controversy .
I remember comments when it happened , joking about whether they told him to do it . It was laughed off as not possible .

And , a year later , we find it was possible , and did happen .

Nobody was hurt , and although it can't mean the action was right , it can mean that all care was taken to ensure nobody was .

Piquet took the risk , and braced for impact , knowing the car would protect him . He knew there were no course workers around . That's why they chose the spot they chose .
He knew that walls and catch fencing preclude the use of a crane just like Flav and Symmonds did .

And , walls and more and higher catch fencing were the answer when JV's wheel took out corner worker Graham Beveridge in Oz .

It was cold and calculated .
And , it worked , for a year .

Then , with no job , Jr cries about the pressure , and the lack of respect in not being rewarded for being a team player .
I wonder if Jr could cope with the Renault team's pressure to do well at an event sponsored by the team sponsor , ING .

I have never said I liked this move , but I do think it was a brilliant gambit , in a way .

And , a gambit that we should never see again .

Given that putting this through the courts , because of an over the top judgement by the FIA to ban Flavio forever and stop any driver signed with him being able to get a super-licence , was inevitable , it begs wonder why they didn't fire a huge fine at him and ban him for a short time .
He , Symmonds , and Piquet would have been pariahs anyway , and it wouldn't have held quite so many headlines for as long as it has .
And , it's not over .

They tried something on , and initially it worked .
It should be banned , not Flavio .
He is colour in the dull technical world of F1 .

This was Max , getting his revenge for that photo-op that Ron and Flav put together .
He , like Flavio in Singapore , went a little too far , and the battle will rage on .

I'd like to see both Ron and Flavio back , if only to take the lumps the paddock would dish .

garyshell

13th January 2010, 16:36

TMorel

13th January 2010, 16:59

I remember one hot and dusty rally when the car in front of us at the start control for the last stage used his stunningly beautiful codriver (who was also his 22yr old daughter) to come over all faint and request the assistance of the salivating start marshal to help her out of her overalls and fan her down with the timecards. After a couple of minutes the dust had settled and she made an amazing recovery and got her timecard filled in and enjoyed a dust free stage thereby whipping our butts.

I would happily argue that THAT is acceptable cheating.
I can't however believe that we are still discussing whether what NPQJr claimes to have happened was acceptable in any shape or form.

I will admit however that I'm in two minds at this current outcome, if the FIA broke the rules regarding how they handled being judge/jury/executioner then I'd have to let him walk free. I'm still hoping that even if they can't ban him for life then he'd not come back from F1 (this is my hope with all the talk of family, he knows he got off on a technicallity and now he's going to do the honorable thing... now stop laughing ok)

Bagwan

13th January 2010, 17:57

OK! just let me ask to satisfy those who are uncertain:
" Does anyone hold the view that because nobody was injured in the pre-determined and well orchestrated race fixing crash that Flavio should be forgiven and should be re-instated into F1?"

I thought about this question a while , Valve , and I think my answer could be yes , with a tweak or two to the question .

Replace "forgiven" with "fined heavily" , and replace "re-instated" with "un-banned" , as it is expensive to uphold the idea in court , and pointless , really , as the "pariah" status would keep him out anyway .
Hell , call it the Briatore rule , where you offer a ban to anyone proven to have done this again .

Malbec

13th January 2010, 19:34

OK! just let me ask to satisfy those who are uncertain:
" Does anyone hold the view that because nobody was injured in the pre-determined and well orchestrated race fixing crash that Flavio should be forgiven and should be re-instated into F1?"

What actually happened in Singapore is largely irrelevant to whether Flavio should be punished, after all we really don't want to get into the topic of situational ethics here as someone has already mentioned.

The question is, how should a team principal or engineer be punished if they behave outside the boundaries of what is acceptable? Whether its a staged crash or some other criminal act is irrelevant.

The FIA should have some means of punishing these guys harshly. It can ban a driver but not an engineer or principle, at least thats what the court case judgement concludes.

Maybe all F1 staff should be licenced so that that licence can be revoked if required? Maybe the FIA should rewrite its rules so individuals can be banned from F1 (it isn't currently which is why Flav won).

I don't think the FIA will win its appeal, after all the judgement was based on procedural factors which were definitely in place when Flav was 'banned'. The question is, how can it be sorted out before the next such case?

ozrevhead

14th January 2010, 00:45

I haven't noticed anyone defend Piquet lately on here, maybe they've changed their mind? I remember it got quite nasty when we first learnt about the crash scandal, and Piquet had an element of support back then.. :eek:
Ive always believe he has been subjected to workplace bulling - Ive seen a boss bully a fellow workmate as well as been a victim of it myself and anyone would feel the same way after seeing what I experianced - nothing is going to change my perception of that.

BUT I do think he should accept whatever punnishment he is given and one thing is certain - he wont be apart of motorsport of any form anymore regardless of immunity, but my feeling is that I cant say the same for Flavio or Symonds

they both were extreamly lucky as they got off on a technicality

ozrevhead

14th January 2010, 00:46

I thought about this question a while , Valve , and I think my answer could be yes , with a tweak or two to the question .

Replace "forgiven" with "fined heavily" , and replace "re-instated" with "un-banned" , as it is expensive to uphold the idea in court , and pointless , really , as the "pariah" status would keep him out anyway .
Hell , call it the Briatore rule , where you offer a ban to anyone proven to have done this again .
true but the way everyone is acting valve's question is relevent as is

Valve Bounce

14th January 2010, 01:09

true but the way everyone is acting valve's question is relevent as is

Quite correct. I thought long and hard before I worded my question, partly to address the direction some of the discussion was heading, and I stand by the exact wording of my question.

macksrallye

14th January 2010, 03:22

OK! just let me ask to satisfy those who are uncertain:
" Does anyone hold the view that because nobody was injured in the pre-determined and well orchestrated race fixing crash that Flavio should be forgiven and should be re-instated into F1?"

Given the context of this question my answer is simply no.

However this whole issue of pentalties for non-drivers involved in F1 (& all forms of international motorsport for that matter) needs to be addressed. The idea of licenses as per Dylan H's post is quite interesting & probably the best way to go. Lets face its Doctors & Nurse's must have licenses to practice so why can't the FIA do a simular thing. At very least it will mean that the people coming into the motorsport "industry" will have an idea of what they're getting themselves into before they jump in at the deep end.

garyshell

14th January 2010, 05:04

true but the way everyone is acting valve's question is relevent as is

Why? Because it is.

Gary

Easy Drifter

14th January 2010, 05:18

Drivers and entrants are licensed. In many countries, if not all the course workers are licensed, the stewards are, some race officials, if not all are. I cannot speak for today but when I was a senior race official for GP, Can Am etc. I was not. I previously had been asst. chief tech inspector at pro races and chief tech at club races. I was not licensed and I was a race mechanic not a licensed one.
One way to give the FIA, and ASNs authority would be to include a clause on passes giving the organizer/ASN authority on all personal involved at each event. You usually sign a waiver and this could be included.
That way it could include local races as well as major events.