Best non-works drivers?

[urabus-denoS2000]

Here's an interesting topic pettersolberg and I started , I think it could be very fun and interesting

So,in your opinion,who are the top 10 non-works drivers in the world? In my opinion the Škoda boys are of course full works drivers so they wont be in my list


Here's my list (not in order)

Andreucci,P Solberg,Atko,PG Andersson,Basso,Kresta,Rox,Marco Zannier ( ;) ),Gronholm (he's kinda retired but OK ),Meeke

[MJW]

Petter, PG, Chris Atkinson, Galli, Sarrazin, Meeke, and instead of retired or semi retired folk I would go for really young guns, Peter Zachrisson, Jarko Nikkara, Jari Keetoma, Brynildsen

[urabus-denoS2000]

Forgot Gigi ;)

[Barreis]

All these guys except Zannier were works drivers.. :)

[urabus-denoS2000]

But they are not now ;)

[Micke_VOC]

P Solberg, Atkinsson , PG Andersson, Galli, Meeke, Wilks, Flodin, Keetoma, Daniel Carlsson and Mikkelssen

[Helstar]

Agree with 99% of those you've said... =)

[N.O.T]

Including drivers that were in WRC official teams is somewhat unfair for both sides.....

[macksrallye]

Atko, Petter, Gigi, Meeke, Basso, PG, Gardemiester, Kresta, Mikkelssen & Cody Crocker.

Before anybody has a go at me about Cody just look at his results in the APRC. With strong competition from Katsu Taguchi & Jussie Valimaki (a few years ago anyway) he dominated. If he got the oppotunity I think he could seriously suprise some of the european guys.

[N.O.T]

strong competition of Katsu Taguchi & Jussie Valimaki

lol...yeah indeed very strong.

[macksrallye]

They were wiping the floor with all the other group N (incl PWRC) guys at Rally Oz & Rally NZ. Even Arai who was winning PWRC events against some pretty good (back then anyway) competition. Just because they weren't in WRC cars does not mean they aren't good.

[N.O.T]

Just because they weren't in WRC cars does not mean they aren't good.

sorry to break your bubble but thats exactly why they weren;t in WRC cars.....

[macksrallye]

You mean apart from the fact it is nigh on impossible for anybody from asia/australasia to get enough sponsorship $'s behind them to even have a crack at european events let alone the WRC. God you're naive.

[urabus-denoS2000]

I agree about Crocker but Valimaki isnt a great example (he isn't in the top back in Finland)

[Rally Hokkaido]

You mean apart from the fact it is nigh on impossible for anybody from asia/australasia to get enough sponsorship $'s behind them to even have a crack at european events let alone the WRC. God you're naive.

Do N.O.T. be frustrated by the negative comments. If what I heard comes true you will have the last laugh in this year's PWRC.

[Rallyper]

PG, Mikkelsen, Brynhildsen, Flodin, Novikov, Pajunen, DC

[Tomi]

Atkinsons faith really pisses me of, he was a guy who possibly could have gone all the way to the top, or atleast been standard guy on the podium, also its strange that there is no competitive Swede in WRC.

[bluuford]

Wilks, PG, Flodin, Galli, Atkinson, Aava, Stohl, Rovanperä, Kresta, Mikkelsen
In my view Meeke is wokrs driver as well :-)

[urabus-denoS2000]

Hmm Stohl... He was good at WRC level I admit but from what I saw in Austria... hmmm :D

[RS]

Maybe if the new tech regs work some of the people mentioned in this thread could be in WRC from 2011/12 onwards.

[sete]

dont forget Duval he is still one of the best!

[Wim_Impreza]

dont forget Duval he is still one of the best!

Yes, in crashing. His 2009 year was very bad.

[pettersolberg29]

I see Noel157 and morganmillan disagree with my opinion that Kresta isn't particularly brilliant, asking 'Have I never seen him drive?' and 'are there only 10 good drivers in the world?'. Here is my response!

Pluto said he "is currently still one of the best non-works driver in the world". It depends what he means by 'one of the best' because to me one of the best within rallying is top 10 - there are not enough drivers to look outside the top 10 without going to lower levels.
Yes, Kresta is good, amazing compared to me or you, but compared to people like Petter, Atko, PG, Gigi, Garde, Henning, Basso and Duval he isn't even close.

[Barreis]

Kresta made some fastest stage times so he's good..

[noel157]

I see Noel157 and morganmillan disagree with my opinion that Kresta isn't particularly brilliant, asking 'Have I never seen him drive?' and 'are there only 10 good drivers in the world?'. Here is my response!

Pluto said he "is currently still one of the best non-works driver in the world". It depends what he means by 'one of the best' because to me one of the best within rallying is top 10 - there are not enough drivers to look outside the top 10 without going to lower levels.
Yes, Kresta is good, amazing compared to me or you, but compared to people like Petter, Atko, PG, Gigi, Garde, Henning, Basso and Duval he isn't even close.

So, have you seen Kresta drive?

[Juha_Koo]

Kresta made some fastest stage times so he's good..

By "some stage wins" you mean four (4) WRC stage wins... That doesn't automatically make him a good driver.

But maybe you used that phrase because it's used so much with your, oh, so beloved JML. Just for the record, JML has 110 WRC stage wins.

[pettersolberg29]

Noel - what has that got to do with it? But to answer, yes I have although I admit I do not remember him vividly.

Barreis - you can't use amount of stage wins as good if its only 4 stages. Many poor drivers have won stages over the years. If he'd have won 40 it may signal his pace.

Juha - you're spot on ;)

[Barreis]

By "some stage wins" you mean four (4) WRC stage wins... That doesn't automatically make him a good driver.

But maybe you used that phrase because it's used so much with your, oh, so beloved JML. Just for the record, JML has 110 WRC stage wins.

He won them crying.. xd

[urabus-denoS2000]

I admit Hresta's period in WRC 2005 was bad and he didn't shine as much as I expected.But to be fair that was a transitional year for Ford. I just looked in my Pirelli World Rallying 28 and Garde wasnt much better yet he is mentioned as being much better that Kresta

[pettersolberg29]

From what I've seen and followed since as long as I can remember (till about 2000) I rate Garde higher than Kresta. He just always seemed more competitive to me.

[urabus-denoS2000]

I agree he showed more,no doubt.But in 2005 he didn't really destroy him ;)

[pettersolberg29]

That's true. 2005 was terrible for Ford all round.

[N.O.T]

To answer the thread

Duval
Kopecky
Meeke and maybe Wilks

[urabus-denoS2000]

Duval was great in WRC (Deutschland 2007 was epic) but he drove 3 IRC rallies and he proved NOTHING

Portugal 2008 - nothing special
Ypres - crashed and was not on the pace
San Remo - was in a works Abarth , was not near the pace (outpaced by miles by Kopecky and Meeke you listed,I don't think that's worthy of a title "tarmac ace" some people call him ;) )

[RS]

Duval was great in WRC (Deutschland 2007 was epic) but he drove 3 IRC rallies and he proved NOTHING

Portugal 2008 - nothing special
Ypres - crashed and was not on the pace
San Remo - was in a works Abarth , was not near the pace (outpaced by miles by Kopecky and Meeke you listed,I don't think that's worthy of a title "tarmac ace" some people call him ;) )

Ypres we can't really tell the speed since Francois crashed on the first corner...

Sanremo was a big disappointment, he was miles behind Rossetti, who in turn is not quite as fast as Basso.

I still think Francois is a very fast asphalt driver, but there are many of them in IRC.

[JFL]

Mikkelsen
P.Solberg
G.Galli
Meeke
Brynildsen

[Wim_Impreza]

Kresta made even a fastest time in WRC with a private Bozian 206 WRC in Germany 2003 when the works drivers were still fighting for the leaderboard. That was the last year that the level in WRC was very high. After that, it goes downhill each year. There is no doubt for me that Kresta is in the top 10 of the best non works drivers.

To urabus-denoS2000: Duval was not that bad in Portugal 2008. He was second in that rally until he retired.

[urabus-denoS2000]

Wim_Impreza : I guess you are right,I don't remember it very clearly

[Wim_Impreza]

Look here to the stage times of that rally: http://www.ewrc-results.com/results_main.php?event=190&stage=3546&category=&group=&section=

After SS9 Duval was second in a private Punto S2000, before SS10 he retired. He did a fastest time in SS5 and SS9. ;)

[Simmi]

I'd say in terms of who could jump in and be fast. If there were teams and a drivers market these would all be in jobs.

Petter, Atkinson, Galli, Meeke, Gardemeister, Mikkelsen, Duval, PG, Aava, Wilks.

That's a list of fairly established drivers with WRC machinery experience. I can't bring myself not to put Duval on there because when he isn't crashing he's beating a fair few on that list. I also have real difficulty placing Basso due to the different formula, and personally I don't know enough about him. And for the record I dont consider Meeke/Wilks to be works drivers - but if at least one of them isn't by this time next year I'll be very disappointed.

Also to weigh in on the Kresta debate. I don't think the guy would enter many people's top 10 lists but he is taking a lot of unfair criticism. He's legit IMO but not quite top tier.

[pettersolberg29]

Who's unfairly criticising Kresta? Me and others just say that he isn't brilliant - a good driver but within the WRC/IRC he is off pace in my opinion.

[Simmi]

Who's unfairly criticising Kresta? Me and others just say that he isn't brilliant - a good driver but within the WRC/IRC he is off pace in my opinion.

I'm just refering to the pure weight of posts directed at Kresta.

[pettersolberg29]

I see, but no-one has completely rubbished him. He is respected still.

[sete]

and he (Kresta) is great test driver

[Helstar]

No doubt.

[Micke_VOC]

i forgot one my list, aava....

[HaCo]

IMHO you can only compare a driver with the current works drivers if they are in the same context: as much testing, same car. Right now we know that there is nobody with as much testing as and we don't know much about the B-team cars: how good are they compared to the top cars? It's an exception that somebody with a B-team car can follow the 2 top teams (I can think of Duval in Germany, JML, maybe currently P Solberg).

That's why I'm really looking forward to the Monte, where we can see Mikko Hirvonen batling with other S2000 car, where he doesn't have his regular advantage as a works driver (there are more drivers in the IRC with good cars and lots of testing miles).

[JFL]

:up:

[RS]

Since the M2 teams (or whatever they call them now) are not really privateer drivers but paid for outposts of the main works teams, I don't see the point in the rule not allowing those drivers to use the latest cars. They are forever at a disadvantage and I hope it stops when the S1600T rules come along.

[Langdale Forest]

So this is where Kresta is.

[pettersolberg29]

Hiding away on page 3 of a random thread!

[Langdale Forest]

I think he will be hiding at the very back of Chit chat now!