Honda targeting 225 at indy and 575hp

[SarahFan]

http://hondaracinghpd.blogspot.com/2010/01/q-with-hpd-technical-division-manager.html

[NickFalzone]

I like the changes on P2P and eliminating fuel settings, but 575 hp and 225 at indy is not exactly awe inspiring. if it's a turbo and the new car is significantly lighter, maybe that's a decent number, but if that was dropped into the current dallara... zzzzzzzzz

[anthonyvop]

V6?
575 Hp?

[NickFalzone]

V6?
575 Hp?

Hehe, yeah IRL let's go from a 650 HP V8 to a 575 HP V6...? Again, smaller and lighter chassis likely, but that HP number is hard to deal with for supposedly the "fastest racing on the planet".

[Blancvino]

Who thinks this stuff up? Do they want to be taken seriously?

[bennybigb]

575 horsepower is more than enough. The races will be much more exciting with all the side by side racing. I just hope they keep the downforce up to help the show.

Good Job IRL and Honda!

[anthonyvop]

Hehe, yeah IRL let's go from a 650 HP V8 to a 575 HP V6...? Again, smaller and lighter chassis likely, but that HP number is hard to deal with for supposedly the "fastest racing on the planet".
It isn't even the 4th fastest Formula racing on the planet now.....why change that?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Take away all but a tiny bit of downforce to stop them from being frisbees and I might guy it but I don't know. Race cars in a major league racing series, the top flight should be HARD to drive and have scary power. There are street cars with more power....

[NickFalzone]

This combined with the IRL's apparent effort now to get Ellen Degeneres to be a guest of honor at the 500 makes me seriously question who's making decisions these days.

[TURN3]

It isn't even the 4th fastest Formula racing on the planet now.....why change that?

Interesting point...and for all I know incredibly accurate. Out of curiosity, what series does currrently race faster? NASCAR does not, despite the gross HP advantage. I realize it depends entirely on the track but seriously, what are some "faster" series (what the hell is plural for series?).

[Wilf]

This combined with the IRL's apparent effort now to get Ellen Degeneres to be a guest of honor at the 500 makes me seriously question who's making decisions these days.

IRL's effort or Sarah Fisher's effort; this is a difference.

[Hoop-98]

Horsepower without a drag number is meaningless. The Lola (and presumably the DP01) as raced could not exceed ~205 MPH with the P2P button held down and 775/800 BHP.

The Dallara runs over 230 with 670ish.

A 225 Indy lap means similar power/drag ratios to what we have now for ovals.

And of course Honda inferred more power for a road course.

Of course we know nowhere near enough to know if this is a good or bad thing, but the usual suspects will take their usual positions, no matter how ignorant (as we all are now) of the truth.


rh

[Hoop-98]

Of course, if the new car can run 225 with 575 HP it must be either smaller or more efficient aero wise.

Just guessing that the road course version has 50 more hp, wild a** guess only we might see something like this.

http://i49.tinypic.com/2ign5z6.jpg

Of course if this was the outcome, we would likely have a car with similar performance to the current car on an oval and slightly quicker than the DP01 was.

Not close of course to the old CART or any F1 in the last 20 years but still better than today.

I, like everyone else has no idea, but I find the 225 target with 70 -90 less power (we gain about 20 with the air scoop at 225) implying a lighter more nimble car as promising.

Some (take a guess whom) will of course not be able to see this possible positive outcome. And of course, the new package may not be positive.

Hookem Horns

rh

[chuck34]

Hoop, quit using logic, reason, facts, and junk, it takes all the fun out of it. ;-)

[anthonyvop]

Interesting point...and for all I know incredibly accurate. Out of curiosity, what series does currrently race faster? NASCAR does not, despite the gross HP advantage. I realize it depends entirely on the track but seriously, what are some "faster" series (what the hell is plural for series?).

F1, GP2, A1GP Superfund League.

Now i know that the iNdY 500 people will start screaming about 225 MPH!!!!!

So? It is an Long Oval race. Change the gearing on an F1 car and trim out the wings(Which is what the ICS do to their Dallaras at Indy) and it would blow an ICS car away.

[Hoop-98]

F1, GP2, A1GP Superfund League.

Now i know that the iNdY 500 people will start screaming about 225 MPH!!!!!

So? It is an Long Oval race. Change the gearing on an F1 car and trim out the wings(Which is what the ICS do to their Dallaras at Indy) and it would blow an ICS car away.

Thanks for your opinion. Wanna care to back it up with anything. Operating series of course, comparative times, highest trap speeds of a F1 car as raced?

We all know what you dream and wish for, do some homework.

rh

[anthonyvop]

Honestly I could care less if they ran 205 or 225 at Indy. I know for some it will be blasphemy but the Indy 500 is just another oval race to me. A very popular race, true but just another oval race.

For the ICS to even hope to be considered as a top Formula Car series in my mind they need 700 HP and a chassis with serious grip(Mechanical and Aero)

[NickFalzone]

IRL's effort or Sarah Fisher's effort; this is a difference.

no IRL is promoting it too, on twitter and indycar's site:

http://ow.ly/16i20H

not that I care really, just not optimistic that's the sort of audience that's going to add to the fanbase. They should be trying to get like Frank Mir or some big UFC/WEC dude to the 500 and have them talk about it at an event, that's a lot more your fanbase, and hell most of em even have VS. Doubt a single Ellen viewer has or ever will turn on VS.

[anthonyvop]

Thanks for your opinion. Wanna care to back it up with anything. Operating series of course, comparative times, highest trap speeds of a F1 car as raced?

We all know what you dream and wish for, do some homework.

rh

OK

800 HP
300 LB Less

You do the math.

[Hoop-98]

OK

800 HP
300 LB Less

You do the math.


450 pounds less actually, see the p/w chart.
Ya know Anthony, speed is drag limited, not weight. No wait, you don't seem to know any of that stuff, based on that post.

Time out, we are playing football, go horns......


rh

[Hoop-98]

Hoop, quit using logic, reason, facts, and junk, it takes all the fun out of it. ;-)

Gotta do something to kill my football jitters. Unfortunately it's like battling the black knight in Monty Python,, lotta talk but not much of a fight.


rh

[NickFalzone]

450 pounds less actually, see the p/w chart.
Ya know Anthony, speed is drag limited, not weight. No wait, you don't seem to know any of that stuff, based on that post.

Time out, we are playing football, go horns......


rh

We talking top speed or acceleration? Pretty sure weight plays a factor in the latter.. and on road courses that's the speed.

[Hoop-98]

We talking top speed or acceleration? Pretty sure weight plays a factor in the latter.. and on road courses that's the speed.

Now you know the answer to that. An Indycar, Champcar, CART whatever have no chance in acceleration against an F1 car, not since the 60's.

rh

[NickFalzone]

Now you know the answer to that. An Indycar, Champcar, CART whatever have no chance in acceleration against an F1 car, not since the 60's.

rh

So just for my lack of knowledge here, and I'm genuinely curious, would a 900 HP Honda V6 out accelerate a 575 HP v6? Let's say maybe an added 50-100 pounds on the 900 hp one? In other words, what are some compelling reasons for the new IRL car to have significantly less HP than the currently one? Other than cost?

[anthonyvop]

Gotta do something to kill my football jitters. Unfortunately it's like battling the black knight in Monty Python,, lotta talk but not much of a fight.


rh
Go back to your calculator.

With all your number crunching you do to support your various theories you always seem to omit certain things....................Oh like Grip(Suspension, Tires, braking)

A ICS car isn't even in the same league.

BTW Trap speeds isn't a valid comparison. Tell you what..Have a Dallara barrel down the front straight at Indy but with a 90 degree closed radius corner at the end then tell me what their trap speeds are.
How about the fact that F1 car Gearing is a compromise because of the road course. Low, med and high speed corners all have to be attacked.
A ICS carat Indy has to accelerate from low speeds about 3-4 times a race during green flag pit stops.

[Hoop-98]

Go back to your calculator.

With all your number crunching you do to support your various theories you always seem to omit certain things....................Oh like Grip(Suspension, Tires, braking)

A ICS car isn't even in the same league.

BTW Trap speeds isn't a valid comparison. Tell you what..Have a Dallara barrel down the front straight at Indy but with a 90 degree closed radius corner at the end then tell me what their trap speeds are.
How about the fact that F1 car Gearing is a compromise because of the road course. Low, med and high speed corners all have to be attacked.
A ICS carat Indy has to accelerate from low speeds about 3-4 times a race during green flag pit stops.


duh.... do u read posts....ok bye bye tony, your not worthy IMO....

[garyshell]

OK

800 HP
300 LB Less

You do the math.

FOR you, because you aren't up to it?

Gary

[anthonyvop]

Hehehehehe!!!

[garyshell]

no IRL is promoting it too, on twitter and indycar's site:

http://ow.ly/16i20H

not that I care really, just not optimistic that's the sort of audience that's going to add to the fanbase. They should be trying to get like Frank Mir or some big UFC/WEC dude to the 500 and have them talk about it at an event, that's a lot more your fanbase, and hell most of em even have VS. Doubt a single Ellen viewer has or ever will turn on VS.


The IRL is promoting Sarah's invitation to Ellen. And why not? Any publicity is good publicity. Sarah has been doing WAY more than than most to promote the series and she thinks "out of the box". Good for her!

Gary

[anthonyvop]

The IRL is promoting Sarah's invitation to Ellen. And why not? Any publicity is good publicity. Sarah has been doing WAY more than than most to promote the series and she thinks "out of the box". Good for her!

Gary
Katherine Legge was on Ellen after her big wreck at RA. That helped a lot.

Good for Sarah though. Good for her sponsor.

[Civic]

I wonder if the Panoz had a superspeedway trim in its design, and how fast that would've been.

575hp...isn't that what the Indy Lights Buick engines were pushing?

[Jag_Warrior]

I wonder if the Panoz had a superspeedway trim in its design, and how fast that would've been.

575hp...isn't that what the Indy Lights Buick engines were pushing?

I'm think the Buick Indy Lights engines were putting out in the low 400 range, but don't quote me on it.

[call_me_andrew]

So from what I'm hearing, we drop 75 horsepower, wings, and a few hundred pounds. I'd call that car easier to drive.

EDIT: But on the other hand, it's possible that Honda thinks they'll have engine competiton, so they're starting with an underpowered engine and expect it to put out near 650 after a few years.

[Oli_M]

Thanks for your opinion. Wanna care to back it up with anything. Operating series of course, comparative times, highest trap speeds of a F1 car as raced?

We all know what you dream and wish for, do some homework.

rh

I really don't want to start an argument, but actually have solid FACTS that can back this all up and (hopefully!) end the discussion.

The current IndyCar is actually (roughly, using as much data available as possible) the TENTH fastest single seater race car available.

Current cars faster are (in order), F1, GP2, Renault World Series, Superleague, A1GP, European F3000, followed by the 2002 F3000 car and the DP01, then the current IndyCar.

For all the proof, go to radiolemans.com, check out the 'midweek motorsport' archive section - Series 4 episode 29 is a full evaluation and comparison of all major race series. Of course this is from the beginning of the year, so the data may have changed a little, but its probably close enough.

[Hoop-98]

I really don't want to start an argument, but actually have solid FACTS that can back this all up and (hopefully!) end the discussion.

The current IndyCar is actually (roughly, using as much data available as possible) the TENTH fastest single seater race car available.

Current cars faster are (in order), F1, GP2, Renault World Series, Superleague, A1GP, European F3000, followed by the 2002 F3000 car and the DP01, then the current IndyCar.

For all the proof, go to radiolemans.com, check out the 'midweek motorsport' archive section - Series 4 episode 29 is a full evaluation and comparison of all major race series. Of course this is from the beginning of the year, so the data may have changed a little, but its probably close enough.

"people should know the methodology, 2 words, slap dash".

The comparison point was the 2003 Champcar Brands Hatch vs BTCC on that track, extropolated.

People should listen to this, admittedly by the participants totally unscientific, piece to judge it's accurracy.Quote, "this is just for fun".

Just to demonstrate the obvious, in 07 both the A1GP and Champcar raced at Mexico City, check and the A1GP was 3 seconds off, putting it Dallara land.

Now back to the original thread.

With the data of 575 plus more for road courses we can safely predict 3 possibilities.

Either slower, faster, or the same speed as the current car.

rh

[SarahFan]

Hoop....

if they lowered the HP and keep the same spec dallara.....would the car be harder or easier to drive?

[Hoop-98]

Ken, that's pretty subjective but I will give you my best general answer.

Here are some general assumptions that are far from absolutely true.

A car with more power per pound would be more challenging...

A car with more relative grip would be less challenging...

A car with more relative downforce would be less challenging...

I think the power to weight ratio is more true than grip except in the special circumstance of being drag limited on a speedway.

Ergo a 2006 Lola was more challenging than a DP01....

A 2000 Lola was a lot more challenging than either...

A Dallara is similar but less challenge wise to a DP01 , less power, less grip

An Indy Light is more challenging than an Atlantic....

A WoO car would be by far the most challenging drive, P/W like F1 with 1/10 the grip....

Lowering the power on a current Dallara would according to most assumptions, make it less challenging.....

and so on.........

rh

[SarahFan]

does anyone have the Tony Kannaan quote(s) about qualifying a champcar at Long beach?

[Hoop-98]

I don't have the quotes, but a Qualifying engined, 1999 Champcar with less downforce and much harder tires would be quite a handful compared to anything (Lola, DP01, Indycar) raced there since 2003....


rh

[Hoop-98]

Probably the width of the peak on the Slip angle vs Lateral Cornering force chart (less being harder to achieve maximum cornering force) is the determining factor on hard to drive (IMO). To a lesser degree the lower the slip angle, the less forgiving the car is at the limit. For example Indycar slip angles are about 2 degrees while Dirt Sprinters are about 40 degrees. One of the reasons it is hard to transition.

I'll give you the Pacejka magic formula so you can work some yourself,

http://i46.tinypic.com/mac3th.jpg

:)

rh

[SarahFan]

not sure hoop.....but i dont think that is a recipe for demi-glace

[edv]

I don't care about the engine sizes or configurations or grip levels or P/W ratios or wing sizes....
All I want is cars with a LOT of horsepower for acceleration and high straight line speed, but also the requirement to substantially lift or even brake for corners. All corners. C'mon Man. It can't be that tough.

[Hoop-98]

not sure hoop.....but i dont think that is a recipe for demi-glace

DEMI-GLACE

Yield: 1 gallon

1 gallon Espagnole sauce, hot[/*:m:33kzs9lc]
1 gallon brown stock, hot[/*:m:33kzs9lc]
1 bouquet garni[/*:m:33kzs9lc] In a stock pot, combine the Espagnole sauce, brown stock and bouquet garni, together, over medium-high heat. Bring up to a boil, reduce the heat to medium and a simmer until the liquid reduces by half, about 1 1/2 hours. Skim the liquid occasionally, for impurities. Season with salt and pepper. Strain through a China Cap or tightly meshed strainer.



As far as the lifting to corner, we are talking about Ovals obviously.


Superpeedways haven't "substantially lifted and braked" for about 35 years.


Shorter/flatter ovals have and some still require that.


CART tried a major reduction in downforce about 9 years ago on these tracks and totally screwed up everything.


The real difference is minimum drag profiles by design (CART 2003 forward) or minimum wing angles. or Handford drag chutes.



With our current car but without a minimum wing angle (Indy doesn't use them) then at the 1.5 miles the better handling, better driver cars could trim out and run away from the rest.


You would really see the haves and have nots with that.


If it was really so easy and simple, they would do it.


IMO


rh

[SarahFan]

If it was really so easy and simple, they would do it.


IMO


rh

same with making demi

[Hoop-98]

same with making demi

There, you get it!!!!

rh

[SarahFan]

There, you get it!!!!

rh

you post that as if i havent always

[Jag_Warrior]

I don't care about the engine sizes or configurations or grip levels or P/W ratios or wing sizes....
All I want is cars with a LOT of horsepower for acceleration and high straight line speed, but also the requirement to substantially lift or even brake for corners. All corners. C'mon Man. It can't be that tough.

I agree.

If the IRL just did road/street racing, I'd say adapt the current GP2 formula and don't worry 'bout it. Tweak it to make it suit their style and just go racing. I think in addition to those drivers being particularly young & hungry and many of the tracks being better, that formula does produce some fine, higher speed racing. I would much rather watch a GP2 race than an IRL road race... and it's not because I have an ax to grind with the IRL. I know what I like when I watch a road race, and so that's what I watch. In fact, many/most GP2 races are better (IMO) than their F1 big brothers.

As far as oval racing, what the IRL has now isn't really all that bad, in terms of actual racing. But since most people are going to judge IRL oval affairs vs. NASCAR, that's where the bar is set (esp. by newer fans). As with any other formula in the world, some tracks produce better racing (with a given formula) than others. I seriously doubt they'll come up with one which is a barn burner on ALL road, street and oval tracks. Whatever hp/weight ratio they come up with, hopefully the chassis/engine combo will be based on something sound & safe... which can provide "good racing" on MOST track types.

And I gotta be honest... I think it's very possible to have a formula that tops out at 220 or 225 on ovals be MORE successful than one that tops out at 235. If the 225 formula produces closer oval racing than the one that runs at 235... I think that's the one that people are going to watch. And if they don't SOON get people watching again, I don't think they'll have to worry about it much longer anyway.

[spiritone]

Simple to see why the irl gets less relevant every day. Less horsepower (even with the lighter weight) equals less driver talent needed to control car. Why don't we just put bodies on them and call them nascar lite. If everyone wants pack racing, why have this series, just switch the channel and watch the real pack racing series. (nascar)

If you want to revive ow racing start talking about real race cars. Sprint cars on dirt have more horsepower at less weight than the present irl cars. These are cars that are hard to control and require real talent to drive. What everybody seems to be saying is that no one can design a high horsepower car that will stay on the ground and race around indy. Remember penske's cars that had the old merc., so called stock block engine, that topped 240 at indy. Did it fly,no.

Right now, in the good old usa, a car is being designed to race in a real race series, f1. Tell me why an american series has to rely on a foreign manufacture to design its race cars. What has happened to the good old american drive to be the best and have the most advanced racing on the planet. I'm a canadian who used to admire america's spirit to lead the world in whatever competition that it entered, What happened! It seems greed has taken over your nation. Greed brought down one of the best racing series in the world. To fix it is going to take more than 575hp.

[Mark in Oshawa]

If the IRL just did road/street racing, I'd say adapt the current GP2 formula and don't worry 'bout it. Tweak it to make it suit their style and just go racing. I think in addition to those drivers being particularly young & hungry and many of the tracks being better, that formula does produce some fine, higher speed racing. I would much rather watch a GP2 race than an IRL road race... and it's not because I have an ax to grind with the IRL. I know what I like when I watch a road race, and so that's what I watch. In fact, many/most GP2 races are better (IMO) than their F1 big brothers.

As far as oval racing, what the IRL has now isn't really all that bad, in terms of actual racing. But since most people are going to judge IRL oval affairs vs. NASCAR, that's where the bar is set (esp. by newer fans). As with any other formula in the world, some tracks produce better racing (with a given formula) than others. I seriously doubt they'll come up with one which is a barn burner on ALL road, street and oval tracks. Whatever hp/weight ratio they come up with, hopefully the chassis/engine combo will be based on something sound & safe... which can provide "good racing" on MOST track types.

And I gotta be honest... I think it's very possible to have a formula that tops out at 220 or 225 on ovals be MORE successful than one that tops out at 235. If the 225 formula produces close oval racing than the one that runs at 235... I think that's the one that people are going to watch. And if they don't SOON get people watching again, I don't think they'll have to worry about it much longer.

You are VERY right on all of this really. I just know tho is that the IRL has to look big time in terms of the cars appearence and performance. They should provide good racing but be a little tough to master. I know that Aero is the key to this, and it is in the wind tunnel that the problems were created BUT I think it is in there where the solution will come from. The new formula has to get it right...or they are done for...

[Hoop-98]

Performance Quotients:

After much lap time comparisons I suggest:

2009 F1 100
2009 GP2 108.5
2009 Indycar 111.9
2009 WRS 112.5
2009 Superleague 116
Smaller is better

The DP01 would be a bit quicker than the GP2 say 107-108 and the A1GP would be similar to Indycar and WRS around 112.


The F1, Superleague, GP2, and WRS numbers are based on common tracks.

The A1GP, DP01, Indycar are based on Montreal, Mexico City, Long beach, and Edmonton extrapolations. Of course 2 of these are gone.

Where the new car would be is completely unknown.


Anyways, my best guess.....

rh

[gofastandwynn]

FOR you, because you aren't up to it?

Gary

I'm still waiting on the "journalist" to prove his statement that 1,000,000 people attend the Rally Argentina.

[garyshell]

I'm still waiting on the "journalist" to prove his statement that 1,000,000 people attend the Rally Argentina.

Not holding your breath, I hope?

Gary

[chuck34]

Probably the width of the peak on the Slip angle vs Lateral Cornering force chart (less being harder to achieve maximum cornering force) is the determining factor on hard to drive (IMO). To a lesser degree the lower the slip angle, the less forgiving the car is at the limit. For example Indycar slip angles are about 2 degrees while Dirt Sprinters are about 40 degrees. One of the reasons it is hard to transition.

I'll give you the Pacejka magic formula so you can work some yourself,

http://i46.tinypic.com/mac3th.jpg

:)

rh

Hoop, not to interupt a good argument, but I think your MF coefficients are 2 versions old. ;-) If there are more thane about 2 other people who know what that is here, I'll eat my hat. :-D

[Hoop-98]

Yeah, well this is the version that works best with an abacus..

My real point is that power/weight ratios and power oversteer are not always the best indicator of degree of difficulty.

The feedback the car gives at the limit and the driveability/controlability of the throttle are larger factors.

I would say that the DP01 was easier to drive than the Lola yet many would point towards it as a model to copy.

There are many factors, when you notice that some always align themselves the same way in these discussions, I wonder if it is strictly emotional bias, or ignorance, or both.


rh

[edv]

You talking about fluid film inertia there, Chuck?

[anthonyvop]

Performance Quotients:

After much lap time comparisons I suggest:

2009 F1 100
2009 GP2 108.5
2009 Indycar 111.9
2009 WRS 112.5
2009 Superleague 116
Smaller is better

The DP01 would be a bit quicker than the GP2 say 107-108 and the A1GP would be similar to Indycar and WRS around 112.


The F1, Superleague, GP2, and WRS numbers are based on common tracks.

The A1GP, DP01, Indycar are based on Montreal, Mexico City, Long beach, and Edmonton extrapolations. Of course 2 of these are gone.

Where the new car would be is completely unknown.


Anyways, my best guess.....

rh

Funny.
I talked with a driver who has driven the DP01, Dallara ICS car and the Suoerleague Formula...........and he stated that the two Panoz Chassis were quicker than the Dallara.....Of course he didn't have some algebraic formula to back it up.

[anthonyvop]

I'm still waiting on the "journalist" to prove his statement that 1,000,000 people attend the Rally Argentina.

I already did. You can breath now.

[Hoop-98]

Funny.
I talked with a driver who has driven the DP01, Dallara ICS car and the Suoerleague Formula...........and he stated that the two Panoz Chassis were quicker than the Dallara.....Of course he didn't have some algebraic formula to back it up.

No formula Anthony, go check track times..... why not name your source, I'd like to email him/her?

[chuck34]

You talking about fluid film inertia there, Chuck?

I'm not much of a tribologist, but I can learn :-)

[garyshell]

No formula Anthony, go check track times..... why not name your source, I'd like to email him/her?


Source? "Journalists" don't need no stinkeeeeng sources!

Gary

[Hoop-98]

Source? "Journalists" don't need no stinkeeeeng sources!

Gary

Probably "confidential"

Performance

At Magny-Cours in 2009, the best qualfying time for a Superleague Formula car was 1:26.391, almost 11.5 seconds slower "115.2 %" than the fastest qualifying time for an F1 car in 2008 of 1:15.024.[14] Both Superleague Formula and Formula One will be racing at Monza in 2009 where a real time comparision will be possible assuming conditions such as rain are similar. The fastest F1 time at the 2009 Italian Grand Prix happened during a dry second session of qualifying and was 1:22.955. A month later, also during a dry qualifying, the fastest SLF time at the 2009 Monza Superleague Formula round was 1:36.444, 13.5 seconds slower "116.2%".

These are a bit slower relative than an Atlantic car. Too close to call actually.


Seems they perform , based on times, a lot like an Indy Light.


rh

[Mark in Oshawa]

Probably "confidential"

Performance

At Magny-Cours in 2009, the best qualfying time for a Superleague Formula car was 1:26.391, almost 11.5 seconds slower "115.2 %" than the fastest qualifying time for an F1 car in 2008 of 1:15.024.[14] Both Superleague Formula and Formula One will be racing at Monza in 2009 where a real time comparision will be possible assuming conditions such as rain are similar. The fastest F1 time at the 2009 Italian Grand Prix happened during a dry second session of qualifying and was 1:22.955. A month later, also during a dry qualifying, the fastest SLF time at the 2009 Monza Superleague Formula round was 1:36.444, 13.5 seconds slower "116.2%".

These are a bit slower relative than an Atlantic car. Too close to call actually.


Seems they perform , based on times, a lot like an Indy Light.


rh
What kind of power do the Superleague cars run?

Also, I remember it was floating around here years ago that when the IRL first looked at putting the Dallara on the road course at Road Ohio, the first test had it barely as fast as an Atlantic. Now I wonder about the veracity of that but I believed it naively at the time.....

[Hoop-98]

What kind of power do the Superleague cars run?

Also, I remember it was floating around here years ago that when the IRL first looked at putting the Dallara on the road course at Road Ohio, the first test had it barely as fast as an Atlantic. Now I wonder about the veracity of that but I believed it naively at the time.....

It has about the same power as the Panoz but the engine is a lot heavier and longer than the cosworth.

The acceleration should be similar to an Indycar but either for aero, or balance (big heavy engine in rear) it's on-track times where we can compare it to GP2's and f1's were extremely slow.

You think you may have been mislead by a certain clique eh lol....

Cars are cars, times are times, and they are what they are.

The types of tracks make a lot of difference, the DP01 was faster than the Lola on 1/2 the tracks, slower on the other half.

A narrow car with lots of downforce straightens out chicanes and esses real well, but would look a lot slower on acceleration and fast tracks.

Bends made to slow down a champ car might be flat in an .016.

I did my best to approximate performance levels above, no idea why the DP09 Ferrari is so slow.

Also for a 4.2 Litre V12 engine to make only 25-50 more HP than the old 3.5 Indys at 1400 more RPM makes no sense.

Either the car has low aero, bad balance, the track was 6 seconds off the 4 times (although all were dry sessions) we have times for, or the advertised data for the car is optimistic.

Maybe those are ponys not horses, I do not know.


rh

[spiritone]

The panoz was only raced for one year and no one was allowed to develop it. How much faster would it have been if it had been around for another year and the teams were allowed to do some updates on it.


I think it was a very good car that never got to show its true speed.

[Hoop-98]

The panoz was only raced for one year and no one was allowed to develop it. How much faster would it have been if it had been around for another year and the teams were allowed to do some updates on it.


I think it was a very good car that never got to show its true speed.

What does good or bad mean?

They wanted a cheaper car that lapped faster, they removed the aero restrictions.

All cars until then 'went too fast" and got penalized.

Look at the tunnel exits of it and a Lola, with that dimension no telling how fast a Lola would be.

If we still ran 2001 rules Indycars would be setting Ken's "new track record"!!

The cars go as fast as they do because of rules, not good or better.

With Champcar rules F1 cars would be off the scale fast.



The last 2 sentences are my opinion...


rh

[indyracefan]

To the original topic, I believe this highlights why the IndyCar Series needs leadership that not only understands the history & tradition of open-wheel racing but also a grasp on the present with an eye for the future. That certainly isn't residing with the current leadership....at least by all visible indications.

[anthonyvop]

No formula Anthony, go check track times..... why not name your source, I'd like to email him/her?
Soon enough. The interview will be broadcast in the spring.

[Hoop-98]

Soon enough. The interview will be broadcast in the spring.

Wouldn't wanna bust your big secret, lol, btw, did you ask him/her why they (The SLF) were so slow at Magny-Cours and Monza?

rh

[gofastandwynn]

Source? "Journalists" don't need no stinkeeeeng sources!

Gary

Why should he need them? If a guy with a website says it then it must be true... :rolleyes:

[gofastandwynn]

I already did. You can breath now.

Oh did you? I seem to recall you giving me estimates & constantly trying to change the subject to the Indy 500. But, whatever, if you were with an actually news organization it might have expected more.

[gofastandwynn]

Wouldn't wanna bust your big secret, lol, btw, did you ask him/her why they (The SLF) were so slow at Magny-Cours and Monza?

rh

Well it would have to be Bernoldi,Doornbos, Perera or Philippe.

But if they were slow then it could have been all 4 ;)

[Hoop-98]

Well it would have to be Bernoldi,Doornbos, Perera or Philippe.

But if they were slow then it could have been all 4 ;)

At Estoril and Zolder the 2009 car was several seconds slower than the 2008. maybe they lowered the HP or something to make them slower. Of course, a journalist knows this so the interview will explain why they got slower I am sure.

rh

[anthonyvop]

Oh did you? I seem to recall you giving me estimates & constantly trying to change the subject to the Indy 500. But, whatever, if you were with an actually news organization it might have expected more.
So sad that you can't even use Google to find it on the WRC website.

And back to that subject. Seems like the Indy 500 has slipped down another slot.

After a starting ceremony attended by more than 800,000 people in Buenos Aires, the competitors in the Dakar left Buenos Aires and headed to the first bivouac. This is where the first special stage will start tomorrow morning.
http://www.dakar.com/2010/DAK/presentation/us/r3_1-news.html#art28743

[anthonyvop]

Wouldn't wanna bust your big secret, lol, btw, did you ask him/her why they (The SLF) were so slow at Magny-Cours and Monza?

rh

Watch the show!

[gofastandwynn]

So sad that you can't even use Google to find it on the WRC website.

And back to that subject. Seems like the Indy 500 has slipped down another slot.

http://www.dakar.com/2010/DAK/presentation/us/r3_1-news.html#art28743

At least you're pathetically consistent.

I don't feel like proving what you say, in journalism that is the job of the reporter, a.k.a. you.

[Hoop-98]

Watch the show!

I think I might be busy....what day is it?

lol

Ok, anyone that wants to help I am working on a matrix of different single seater types on different tracks and years.

Obviously we don't want wet sessions or need to know about track changes.

It's prone to errors because even things like curb changes year to year can make a difference but the more data the better.


http://i50.tinypic.com/17pkqx.jpg


rh

[Hoop-98]

Dang I see 1 mistake already, I'll keep fixing, updating...Feel free to correct

http://i49.tinypic.com/10gbq0j.jpg

rh

[NickFalzone]

Just out of curiosity, why is the superleague car so much slower than the DP01? I don't know anything about that series, but my perception of it from a few press releases was that it was one of the fastest road-racing series around, right behind F1. Apparently it's quite a bit behind both the Gp2 series and champ car? Also which of these series listed by hoop are "active" and not bankrupt?

[Hoop-98]

Just out of curiosity, why is the superleague car so much slower than the DP01? I don't know anything about that series, but my perception of it from a few press releases was that it was one of the fastest road-racing series around, right behind F1. Apparently it's quite a bit behind both the Gp2 series and champ car? Also which of these series listed by hoop are "active" and not bankrupt?

http://i49.tinypic.com/10gbq0j.jpg

My guess is 2 things.

First the engine is about 50 pct heavier than a Cosworth with the same power, and much longer, higher center of gravity. When combined with a DP01 tub you could have as much as 200 more pounds in the worst places.

Second, I think they derated the engine in 09, for durability perhaps, it is consistently slower.

Of course, maybe some journalist can find out the real reason, I am sure it is slow, not sure why.

PS: Press releases usually run 16.37% quicker than the real car.

rh

[Hoop-98]

Some GP2/F1 shows how every track and every session varies (2009).

http://i47.tinypic.com/166yq2o.jpg

rh

[speeddurango]

That is a good news from almost whichever viewing angle since their race is bad enough and 670 HP is not really a high power output worthy of maintaining, whereas with the new engine could have an efficient boost setting for ameliorating the racing.

[SarahFan]

According to miller today the new delta wing will be lighter than a sprint car and the engine will produce 325hp


*posting from phone... But article is up on speedtv.com

[Hoop-98]

According to miller today the new delta wing will be lighter than a sprint car and the engine will produce 325hp


*posting from phone... But article is up on speedtv.com

It would have to weigh about 850 pounds with driver....

Get back to me when we have something a bit more feasible..

rh

[SarahFan]

OkK

[chuck34]

I've been told (can't say be whom, so don't ask) that the new car will look a bit like this, but not exactly whatever that means.

http://www.scheuern.com/photoblog/archives/images/mil03hist09.jpg

I trust this source, ie ... I pretty sure he's seen the drawings, but I'm not sure of his interpretation. I know this is cryptic and wierd, but he mentioned this car by name??????????????

[Hoop-98]

I think we need to change Robin's name to Rosanne Rosannamiller..

[garyshell]

I think we need to change Robin's name to Rosanne Rosannamiller..


Never mind...

Gary

[Jag_Warrior]

I've been told (can't say be whom, so don't ask) that the new car will look a bit like this, but not exactly whatever that means.

http://www.scheuern.com/photoblog/archives/images/mil03hist09.jpg

I trust this source, ie ... I pretty sure he's seen the drawings, but I'm not sure of his interpretation. I know this is cryptic and wierd, but he mentioned this car by name??????????????

It's looking more and more like this is what the IRL car will look like in 2012 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/59/228972316_37f37f685f_o.jpg).

And if they don't get their act together, this is what it will look like in 2013 (http://www.pollsb.com/photos/o/285342-this_page_intentionally_left_blank.jpg).

[chuck34]

It's looking more and more like this is what the IRL car will look like in 2012 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/59/228972316_37f37f685f_o.jpg).

And if they don't get their act together, this is what it will look like in 2013 (http://www.pollsb.com/photos/o/285342-this_page_intentionally_left_blank.jpg).

Way to stay positive. Thanks for that Jag.

[Jag_Warrior]

Way to stay positive. Thanks for that Jag.

That's me: Mr. Happy! :D

But I think that's closer to the truth than many may think.