Olympic Scandal

[tony_yeboah]

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6391075.stm?dynamic_vote=ON#vote_olympics_cost2

They are saying that it is now going to cost 4 times more than they originally said! thats 9 Billion Pounds!

Interestingly, they are estimating 1 billion in VAT. how do they work this out. This is tax right? and the government are the ones who charge tax right? therefore why are they charging themselves? More important, where is that money going?

I smell something fishy

[BeansBeansBeans]

I work in the construction industry and it doesn't surprise me when large projects go over time and budget. It's quite common.

[tony_yeboah]

4 times over budget tho? we are talking £6,000,000,000 more when it has been planned and researched for years? not to mention there are already great facilities in Manchester.

Its a ridiculous amount of tax payers money, when if you break it down to what it actually is - 8,000,000,000 pounds to see 10 blokes run 100m as fast as they can. There are other events of course, but thats the big cheese of events.

Disgrace....not to mention Wembley and the Millennium Dome. Can't England ever build anything that doesn't escalate wildly out of control? Other nations manage ok so why can't we?

[jim mcglinchey]

You see it all the time. Contractors submit budget prices in the hope of getting the work but when the contract is actually awarded and they have to produce the goods then they've to come up with a realistic price that will both cover them and allow them to retire to the Bahamas on the back of.

[BDunnell]

You see it all the time. Contractors submit budget prices in the hope of getting the work but when the contract is actually awarded and they have to produce the goods then they've to come up with a realistic price that will both cover them and allow them to retire to the Bahamas on the back of.

Exactly. The British government places far too much faith in them. It has been reported widely that several of the big contractors deliberately under-bid, knowing that they couldn't match the stated costs. I don't think this should be tolerated in any industry, especially when public money is involved.

[Ian McC]

not to mention Wembley

Can't we blame the Australians for that? :D

[captin 1 VXR]

i am in the building game to and all our suplyers have put up most things 12 to 20 % after gas and electric bill have gone up to .

and the big firms quote for the build then extras normaly are same as the build cost . and then there s the unforseable extras 50% if not more

and as the goverment are paying i bet thay put 30% extra on it to .

[stevie_gerrard]

It does not surprisew me whatsoever, our country will end up with a massive debt after this coming olympics :(

[imull]

i am in the building game to and all our suplyers have put up most things 12 to 20 % after gas and electric bill have gone up to .

and the big firms quote for the build then extras normaly are same as the build cost . and then there s the unforseable extras 50% if not more

and as the goverment are paying i bet thay put 30% extra on it to .

I am a builders merchant and you would be absolutely gobscmacked at the number of trade and non trade customers who absolutely no idea whatsover of the costs involved of doing anything. It is quite frightening to sit back and listen to customers who should know better talking about project costs that are a fraction of what is realistic.

The companies quotation departments should be called to answer these questions and the companies involved should be penalised accordingly.

[Hazell B]

...you would be absolutely gobscmacked at the number of trade and non trade customers who absolutely no idea whatsover of the costs involved of doing anything.


Exactly. I see people who want to build stables like ours and they just count the cost of bricks and some roofing, taking no account at all of the other materials they'll need. Even tiny jobs like a brick BBQ aren't costed properly - they just say "it's only a few bricks ...." without considering the cement, sand, new trowel, base materials, grill, etc. It's generally three times the estimate.

However, if you and I know it's three times, why in hell's teeth can't the idiots doing sums for the Games know? :mark:

The reason the VAT bill isn't looking as big as it should is simple - you can claim back VAT on all new builds. It will be claimed back, though as it's from the government it's still coming out of our pockets in the long run :s

From the start I've been against these Games being here. What I want to know is why I wasn't asked, along with the rest of the UK, before deals were done to get them. We should have been involved in the whole thing from day one. Realistic figures should have been made available and a simple internet vote organised.

[imull]

The VAT is our contribultion to Europe isnt it? In which case its coming out of the EU pocket which im all in favour of.

The problem is that there is no-one in a position of power that has come from a working backround in the real world. They are all teachers or social workers or some other such profession where they arent required to balance a set of books or actually plan anything out...

[Hazell B]

Good point - they're hardly going to know about actual building.

In that case, why are they deciding about it? Again, we should have been asked.

I don't know where VAT goes, but don't remember ever reading about it being an EU thing. Perhaps we started VAT to cover our EU bills, but I honestly don't know.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Has the construction started yet? It will be a real embarrasment(*) if the stadium is late.

If you really want to know how well worth the money spent is. you can always do the scocialist test of value for money. Find out how many baby incubators could be bought for the budget. :rolleyes:

* I now it's spelt wrong but I don't care because I can't get bad rep anymore :D

[Hazell B]

I don't think anyone's mentioned half of the work being unfinished/binned at the planning stages because that's already a given!

They're still employing architects, for goodness sake :s

[captin 1 VXR]

best thing is bet none of it will fail to get planning ... oh even if theres a grade 2 building in the way

[imull]

its as well the Olympics arent being held in Argyll then or they wouldnt even get planning permission from this bunch of useless morons!

Had a flick through and from I can figure a large portion of the VAT raised is then used to pay the countries contribution to Europe.

[Drew]

What, how can it be a suprise it was going to cost more than what they had thought.

Surely it can't be a suprise?

[Captain VXR]

The Bath Spa costed millions of pounds of council tax just from Bath and North East Somerset and finished two years late while costing over three times as much as the origional cost for example. Anything using public money is going to cost three times as much as the quote.

[Hazell B]

Didn't the Commonwealth or Student Games (sorry, I forget which it was) cost Sheffield a forty year 'mortgage' a few years ago? It was a total disaster financially, yet they promised the venues would be used if ever we hosted anything big again .... which it hasn't in this case :mark:

[tony_yeboah]

I've never read such rubbish in my life. some of what it says in that article is simply ludicrous!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6453575.stm

[555-04Q2]

I work in the construction industry and it doesn't surprise me when large projects go over time and budget. It's quite common.

There's no excuse though. Its called poor planning and/or mismanagement.

[oily oaf]

I can feel the chill and gnarled hand of Mayor Ken Livingstone sliding stealthily into my threadbare trouser pocket :(

(cackles maniacally as mousetrap snaps shut)

[BDunnell]

Didn't the Commonwealth or Student Games (sorry, I forget which it was) cost Sheffield a forty year 'mortgage' a few years ago? It was a total disaster financially, yet they promised the venues would be used if ever we hosted anything big again .... which it hasn't in this case :mark:

It was a complete disaster. We seem incapable of managing such projects in the UK — although, to be fair, they are difficult and controversial everywhere they are attempted.

And to think people seriously reckon that the private sector has much to teach the public sector when it comes to efficiency and good service...

[tony_yeboah]

There's no excuse though. Its called poor planning and/or mismanagement.

exactly. i couldnt agree more. or its yet more lies lies lies from our wonderful government.

Its no wonder the amount of tax placed of everything is appallingly high

[sal]

The amount of money the current adminstration are planning to spend on developments in the Sth East over the next few years makes the amount of money earmarked for the Olympics look like chicken feed regardless of the costs spiralling. I work in the rail industry and I know from colleagues that are looking at how we are going to resource our planned work that there is massive development in and around London that has been financed by cancelling schemes in other parts of the country to fund it. The Leeds Super tram programme was a case in point. If you live in the Sth East then it's boom time for the foreseeable future, for the rest of us it's not so rosy...

[oily oaf]

The amount of money the current adminstration are planning to spend on developments in the Sth East over the next few years makes the amount of money earmarked for the Olympics look like chicken feed regardless of the costs spiralling. I work in the rail industry and I know from colleagues that are looking at how we are going to resource our planned work that there is massive development in and around London that has been financed by cancelling schemes in other parts of the country to fund it. The Leeds Super tram programme was a case in point. If you live in the Sth East then it's boom time for the foreseeable future, for the rest of us it's not so rosy...

Funnily enough those were my very sentiments as I opened the latest council tax demand which plopped heavily onto my doormat this very morn.

As my incredulous eyes rested on the handsome 4 figure sum which stared malevolently back at me from the "Amount Due" column I couldn't help but exclaim loudly and at the top of my voice "**** me sideways it's ****ing boomtime for the foreseeable future and no b*****d error"

[tony_yeboah]

...oh god. that means mines on its way. its an f***king joke. you get taxed anyway, taken out your wages, then they charge you again on council. then you get charged on road tax. then literally everything you buy.

its damn robbery

[Hazell B]

Some of it may appear to be robbery, but we get pensions and the NHS out of taxes, plus street lights, roads and all the other little things we use daily too.

Waste is rife, though :(

[tony_yeboah]

but 100's of pounds a month? personally i think i get ripped off. 100 pound a month for council tax. they empty my bins twice a month.

[Hazell B]

I'm sure they don't just empty your bins ;)

After all, there's a fire service in your area, yes? They aren't cheap to run! Roads, lights, footpaths, swimmin gpool, pensioner aids, police, car parks, cleaners, blah blah all have to be paid for.

I know Council Tax is something we all like to moan about, but it isn't a 'rip off' for the most part at all. It just feels that way :p :

[tony_yeboah]

I'm sure they don't just empty your bins ;)

After all, there's a fire service in your area, yes? They aren't cheap to run! Roads, lights, footpaths, swimmin gpool, pensioner aids, police, car parks, cleaners, blah blah all have to be paid for.

I know Council Tax is something we all like to moan about, but it isn't a 'rip off' for the most part at all. It just feels that way :p :

you need to stop talking sense :D

[oily oaf]

you need to stop talking sense :D

And you should know better than to cross swords with Hazell Tony Boy ;)

But seriously folks, my beef is not with the council tax per se although I believe this levy should be based on the income of a household and not it's geographical position. Is it fair and equitable for a wage earner existing on the minimum wage to pay the same as his next door neighbour who drives a BMW and holidays twic eanually in Juan Les Pins? I think not.
No my tiresome whining stems from the fact that Londoners are unique in this country in that they are the only citizens upon whom an "Olympic Tax" has been imposed. This is despite the fact that we contribute around 20 billion pounds more to the country than we receive back and yet we are still being asked to fork out for an event that will benefit the entire country.
After all the show jumping, yachting, shooting etc are being held outside London and yet these areas are not being asked to stump up extra council tax. It is this disparity that has raised my cockney ire over this issue although I realise I'm probably in a minority of one unless my fellow city dweller and champion of fair play and equity for the great unwashed Ben Dunnell flies to my side on this one (drums fingers impatiently on table and looks at clock) so I wont hold my breath waiting for my esteemed compatriots to rise up as one and cheer me to the rafters before bearing me shoulder high to the boozer ;)

However I do have a contingency plan in place should my council tax escalate even further despite the glib assurances from Mayor Ken that this will not be the case. Hmmmmmm. Tube fares, congestion charge anyone?
No I have decided that any javelins or discuses (disci?) that land in my garden will be confiscated and put on ebay and any malnourished Kenyan gentlemen in short trousers that cause traffic congestion in my road by running down it chucking water bottles all over the bloody gaff will be kidnapped and held to ransom on pain of being burned............FACE DOWN :mad:

Ah the Corinthian sporting flame burns ever brighter in my manly breast folks :s mokin:

[BDunnell]

I'm sure they don't just empty your bins ;)

After all, there's a fire service in your area, yes? They aren't cheap to run! Roads, lights, footpaths, swimmin gpool, pensioner aids, police, car parks, cleaners, blah blah all have to be paid for.

I know Council Tax is something we all like to moan about, but it isn't a 'rip off' for the most part at all. It just feels that way :p :

A very good summary. :up:

[BDunnell]

And you should know better than to cross swords with Hazell Tony Boy ;)

But seriously folks, my beef is not with the council tax per se although I believe this levy should be based on the income of a household and not it's geographical position. Is it fair and equitable for a wage earner existing on the minimum wage to pay the same as his next door neighbour who drives a BMW and holidays twic eanually in Juan Les Pins? I think not.
No my tiresome whining stems from the fact that Londoners are unique in this country in that they are the only citizens upon whom an "Olympic Tax" has been imposed. This is despite the fact that we contribute around 20 billion pounds more to the country than we receive back and yet we are still being asked to fork out for an event that will benefit the entire country.
After all the show jumping, yachting, shooting etc are being held outside London and yet these areas are not being asked to stump up extra council tax. It is this disparity that has raised my cockney ire over this issue although I realise I'm probably in a minority of one unless my fellow city dweller and champion of fair play and equity for the great unwashed Ben Dunnell flies to my side on this one (drums fingers impatiently on table and looks at clock) so I wont hold my breath waiting for my esteemed compatriots to rise up as one and cheer me to the rafters before bearing me shoulder high to the boozer ;)

I basically agree with you. I fail to understand the resentment that's directed towards the Olympics by people living outside London. There is a very good reason why London won the bid — because nowhere else in Britain has a cat in hell's chance of ever getting the Olympics. London is the only UK city that could ever have succeeded. However, this is not just a local London event, but a major national occasion, and as such I think the burden of paying for it should be borne more evenly.

[ioan]

The VAT is our contribultion to Europe isnt it?

No it isn't. Proof is that different countries may have different VAT levels.

[rwssport]

How many folks in London actually want the Olympic Games.. what's even worse is Glasgow are wanting the Commonwealth Games 2 years later..

[Mark in Oshawa]

I am enjoying this thread. Take out London and put in Vancouver, and change some numbers, and the same thing is happening in British Columbia. The winter games of 2010 are over budget, and while not 4 times as much, the principles are the same. The problem always has to come back to the gulliability of governments to believe estimates, the ability of bid committee's to talk to "experts" to generate them and the desire over common sense in putting support to these dog and pony shows. You never see the IOC lose money or sleep do ya?

No, governments are at fault here because they have to back all overruns and there is no incentive for anyone involved as a contractor to do anything but pad their bills. It is profiteering, it is wrong and governments refuse to understand how the game is played by putting in clauses of perfomance by contractors doing the work. People say what they want to get the contracts and then they force the governments backing the olympic bid to pay up. It is a game that is played at every Olympics, including the one in China, where the Government involved is giving a blank cheque to do the job because they don't want any controversay. That, and they are not accountable now are they?

I pity you Brits, you will pay through the nose for this thing, and the Summer Games are the most extravagant waste of money going. The Aussies have a huge hangover from Sydney, and the Greeks are still wondering what the heck happened to them.

Government, private industry, and these bid committees are all at fault, as they line up to loot the taxpayers. Believe me, the only way to run an Olympics on a profit is to have the facilities already and not promise some new ideas on how to move people around. Then hope no other bid city is willing to do all of that. The IOC gives the bid always to the city willing to do the most.....and pay forevermore as a consequence.

It is a mugs game, and yet as I type this, Chicago is lining up to be the next sucker...and the promises and facilities described will be all at a "fixed Budget".....ya..seen that before.

[Hazell B]

I fail to understand the resentment that's directed towards the Olympics by people living outside London.

I shall explain then.

Because this far up north we're as close to feeling involved as if it were on the moon. You're saying we should help pay for new rail links, buildings, employment and so on for a London event. Why? We're not expecting you to pay for our new beach huts in Bridlington because you won't be using them, simple as that.

It's not about the real issues at all, it's about feeling we're paying for a London that won't ever be of any use to us. Most people I've spoken to up here don't want you southerners to have to pay for it either - it's not just that we're too cheap!

[CarlMetro]

I've never read such rubbish in my life. some of what it says in that article is simply ludicrous!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6453575.stm

Perhaps you'd like to expand on that and give us your expert opinion on how it should be done?

Personally I'm not too surprised that the costs have escalated in such a manner. The original estimate, incidentally produced by consultants ARUP and not a bunch of teachers and social workers, was produced in 2003. It did not include costs for infrastructure nor for the higher levels of security now required for the construction sites since recent terrorist attacks in London. It also had no inclusion for contigency, something which is becomming increasingly important with an ever-changing commodity marketplace.

Now, from a personal perspective as someone who has been in construction for more years than I care to remember, I'd just like to point out one or two factors which should be taken into account.

Lets start with the basic of basics - Steel.

There will not be a single structure built which does not have steel as a basic component somewhere within its construction. In the past 12 months alone the price for sectional steel, such as 'I' beams, 'H' beams and hollow section has risen by more than £150 per tonne to an all time high of £1000 per tonne. The cost of rebar, essential for any structure where cast concrete is in use, has risen by more than £120 per tonne to an all time high of £450 per tonne and with another £50 per tonne expected to be announced at the end of this month.

The biggest cause for these rises is the massive levels of construction currently taking place in China, most of which was not announced to the outside world. It is estimated that China is currently taking more than 40% of all steel production worldwide at the moment and will do so for the foreseable future too.

Concrete

At this current juncture, the UK is one of the biggest construction markets in the world. Per capita we are within the top 5 for the ammount of construction currently under way or proceeding through the planning process. This has meant that resources of basic materials suppliers have be stretched to breaking point. To combat increased demmands foor their products manufacturers such as Lafarge, who produce 65% of all cement for the UK, have built larger and more efficient production facilities. This has in turn seen the cost of cement rise dramatically.

Labour costs

Terminal 5 at Heathrow airport was, at its peak, the largest construction site in Europe. At its peak there were more than 18,000 people employed on site. All was going well until one day one of the electricians said he wanted to be paid more and would like better food in the canteen. To cut a long story short 2000 electricians held Laing O'Rourke, the main contractor, and BAA, the client, to ransome. And so was born another chapter in the NACCI Blue book. The Blue book is like a system of rules which states that if you want to employ a tradesman then you have to pay him a certain minimum wage level. You also have to provide many other things too which all add up to one thing. The simple matter that the costs of employing someone on site has risen dramatically over the past three or four years and is way above any inflationary rise which would have been budgeted for.

Problems

The first construction task performed to enable ground clearance and other construction works to start was to remove part of the main National Grid supply line from above ground to a system of underground tunnels. This meant that those south of the river Thames could still have an electrical supply whilst contruction for the main stadium could start without serious height restrictions. To put the cables underground, J Murphy civil enginnering had to construct 4 miles of concrete lined tunnels. The initial construction started well, with good progress being made and the project actually ahead of schedule. Then two rather significant problems occured. Firstly Murphy encountered ground conditions which were not detailed on the original investigation which cuased construction problems. The bigger problem however occured when the concrete supplier, Lafarge, had an very big explosion in one of their drying kilns, drastically reducing their capability to supply the concrete, thus putting the schedule way off target.

So there's just a few things you should take into account before you start shooting too loud about how unbelieveable the rise in costs are.

Oh and just to wrap up, Wembley Stadium was a fixed price construction. The cost of it to the UK taxpayer was the same at the start of the project as the bill was at the end. Yes, it was delivered almost two years late and revenue from several events was lost but the level of revenue lost is a pittance compared to the time penalties Multiplex will incure for late delivery.

And the reason Bath Spa had so mnay problems was a small factor of the original main contractor going into liquidation when only a quater of the work was completed and the whole legal wrangle that followed.

[Hazell B]

I was going to mention the price of steel rocketing, but didn't know how much difference it made so thanks Carl.

Few people saw steel prices shooting up quite so far. A simple farm gate is now about fifty percent more costly than this time last spring, which made me think new buildings would be impossible to esimate on over time. The knock over effect is that decent welders, who therefore waste less as they make fewer mistakes, are costing more to hire.