Why waste money?

[Hazell B]

Tell me something folks.
If you want a tonne of horse bedding (with 17.5% VAT to pay) and it's exactly the same as a tonne of wood burning stove pellets (with 5% VAT added), which would you order?

Seriously, I've just read an internet forum where there are dozens of women paying full VAT on several hundred pounds worth of wood pellets for their horses to crap on, when in each case they simply need to say the pellets are for their stove and they'd save 12.5% VAT. You actually need to hit a button on the websites to add the extra VAT (if you're stupid) when you order ... and they are all doing it!!!!

Simpletons abound :mark:

Any other similar stories about wastes of cash?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Tell me something folks.
If you want a tonne of horse bedding (with 17.5% VAT to pay) and it's exactly the same as a tonne of wood burning stove pellets (with 5% VAT added), which would you order?

Seriously, I've just read an internet forum where there are dozens of women paying full VAT on several hundred pounds worth of wood pellets for their horses to crap on, when in each case they simply need to say the pellets are for their stove and they'd save 12.5% VAT. You actually need to hit a button on the websites to add the extra VAT (if you're stupid) when you order ... and they are all doing it!!!!

Simpletons abound :mark:

Any other similar stories about wastes of cash?

That's astounding. It says two things: 1) People in the UK are terribly patriotic if they voluntary pay more because they tell the truth (Inland Revenue surely isn't coming to investigate the pellets the horses poop on?) and 2) the tax system there is loopy.....

I cant think any other voluntary waste of money, but I live a sheltered existence....

[Hondo]

I'm amazed that that many people still cook on a wood stove over there.

[Hazell B]

Oh, you don't cook on them. Well, I do sometimes, but they are usually just a pretty cast iron room (or whole house) heater that sits chucking out heat like an old fashioned open fireplace used to. They are 'greener' and mainly cheaper than heating via electric or gas.

Secondly, the VAT ia value added tax and it's payable on all 'luxury' items like clothes and cars at 17.5% and on some other items like heating fuels at 5%. Sorry, I didn't make that clear :)

[Hondo]

If most things depreciate after you buy them like clothes, cars, etc., how can you have a value added tax? Seems like you ought to get a devaluation tax deduction.

[Hondo]

If it's just a sales tax, why not call it that?

[GridGirl]

Its not called a sales tax because that would be logical. There's nothing about UK taxes that are logical. Thank god for Hardmans tax books!

[Jag_Warrior]

I don't/can't use the fireplace in my living room because of the mess. So I've looked at a pellet burning insert (wood or corn) - they're pretty interesting. The only reason I'll probably go with a regular wood stove insert is because I can pretty much get my firewood for free.

As to Hazell's question... do people not realize they're the same thing?

[schmenke]

I too have, in the past, been intrigued by pellet stoves.

Jag, what's the typical cost for a bushel/bucket/bag-o-pellets?

Firewood may be free but the pellet-burning stove would generate a much more efficient heat.

Sorry, don't mean to hijack Hazell's thread :uhoh:

[Jag_Warrior]

I too have, in the past, been intrigued by pellet stoves.

Jag, what's the typical cost for a bushel/bucket/bag-o-pellets?

Firewood may be free but the pellet-burning stove would generate a much more efficient heat.

Sorry, don't mean to hijack Hazell's thread :uhoh:

I just looked it up. Looks like you can get a 40lb bag at Lowe's for about $5.00. I'm not sure how long that would last. But yeah, from what I understand, they're very efficient sources of heat - and very clean.

I get the firewood for nothing by letting a guy cut wood off my land. Split & stacked. Hard to beat that.

[Mark]

Its not called a sales tax because that would be logical. There's nothing about UK taxes that are logical. Thank god for Hardmans tax books!

Karen specalises in doing VAT returns for small companies. And it's more complicated than you can possibily imagine. The amuont of time she spends on the phone to the VAT office getting advice, and she's been doing this for nearly 10 years!

(Well I'm sure you know but I doubt most people know all that's involved)

[Mark in Oshawa]

The VAT, or in Canada the GST is a GIANT pain in the you know where. It is in a sense a fair tax since everyone rich or pays the same tax on items consumed but all the loopholes and claims come in on the small business person. The more taxes get created, the bigger fan I am of a flat tax, but of course all the tax prep people and the "progressives" who want to play games demagoging the rich would NEVER stand for a flat tax.

[Mark]

The VAT, or in Canada the GST is a GIANT pain in the you know where. It is in a sense a fair tax since everyone rich or pays the same tax on items consumed but all the loopholes and claims come in on the small business person. The more taxes get created, the bigger fan I am of a flat tax, but of course all the tax prep people and the "progressives" who want to play games demagoging the rich would NEVER stand for a flat tax.

In the UK we've had all the fun and game with VAT being at 17.5% then going down to 15% in December 2008 then going back up to 17.5% on new years day this year.

It was supposed to make goods cheaper hence stimulate the economy but the consensus was that it didn't work, in fact for the most part retailers just pocketed the difference.

[Dave B]

I love the way that when VAT went down people moaned that it was barely worth the saving, but now it's gone back up the same people are complaining about the rise.

[Mark]

I love the way that when VAT went down people moaned that it was barely worth the saving, but now it's gone back up the same people are complaining about the rise.

It depends if the retailers have used it as an excuse to raise prices. A lot of places seem to have cut the amounts initially from say x.99 to x.93 then a few months later put them back up to .99. How many have then raised them further?!

[Daniel]

I love the way that when VAT went down people moaned that it was barely worth the saving, but now it's gone back up the same people are complaining about the rise.
It's the British attitude Dave, I post on a Fiat forum and there were people complaining that their car was going to cost more because it got delivered @ 17.5% VAT and that the dealer or Fiat should pay the increase. When I pointed out that the rise was known about for a year or so they just didn't get it.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

It's the British attitude Dave, I post on a Fiat forum and there were people complaining that their car was going to cost more because it got delivered @ 17.5% VAT and that the dealer or Fiat should pay the increase. When I pointed out that the rise was known about for a year or so they just didn't get it.

How dare you cheat on this forum by posting on another one!!!

[Mark]

It's still caught many people out. As there is the question of delivery / doing the work vs invoice dates.

e.g. Building work is done in December and invoiced in January. 15% or 17.5%?
You order something in December but it's not delivered until January, 15% or 17.5%?

[Daniel]

It's still caught many people out. As there is the question of delivery / doing the work vs invoice dates.

e.g. Building work is done in December and invoiced in January. 15% or 17.5%?
You order something in December but it's not delivered until January, 15% or 17.5%?
Of course. Apparently HMRC say with cars that you could actually pay the VAT component in the 15% period so the VAT was paid then and then you could pay the balance on delivery. Either way people should have been well aware of it and either ordered a lot earlier OR looked into what they could do to get around it legally.

[Mark]

Of course. Apparently HMRC say with cars that you could actually pay the VAT component in the 15% period so the VAT was paid then and then you could pay the balance on delivery. Either way people should have been well aware of it and either ordered a lot earlier OR looked into what they could do to get around it legally.

I think the problem has been many dealers are ignorant of the technicalities.

[Daniel]

I think the problem has been many dealers are ignorant of the technicalities.
Of course but as always buyer beware. When I ordered under scrappage I looked at the T's and C's carefully and part way through, the Govt changed the conditions which made it look like we weren't eligible so I took it upon myself to called BERR and clarified my position and also got a contact name and number so if the dealer had any problems they could sort them out.

[GridGirl]

Ahh the joys of VAT. I think with cars the problem more lies with when the dealer is classifying the sale as actually taking place. When the order is taken or when the risks and rewards of the sale have been transferred to the new owner.

[Mark]

Ahh the joys of VAT. I think with cars the problem more lies with when the dealer is classifying the sale as actually taking place. When the order is taken or when the risks and rewards of the sale have been transferred to the new owner.

My experience of my two purchases is that the 'sale' as such doesn't take place until the day you pick the car up, or as in my case a few days before when you sign the documents. But when the order is placed you have a contract to purchase or whatever it's called.

[Hazell B]

Sorry, don't mean to hijack Hazell's thread :uhoh:


You haven't, and it doesn't matter anyway. :)

Pellets and the briquettes for stoves are both far warmer than wood when burned and produce so little ash it's incredible. They're just really, really squashed sawdust and nothing else (no glue) and tend to come in bags that can be stored outside with no chance of getting damp. I'm told a 10kg bag (22lb) lasts days rather than hours, so at £2.50 ish they're damned cheap.

As it happens I've had cause to ring a local supplier today and it's turns out he knows my shop and wants to get small scale sales off the ground as he mainly supplies 5 tonne loads at the moment. The result is he's bringing me a whole wagon load tomorrow so I can try selling them for him, plus some freebies for my stable use. He almost choked laughing when I said the Horse & Hound brigade were paying full VAT by choice. I'm slightly worried he'll choke for real when he sees my bio willow trees growing illegally on my paddocks .... he's the person paying royalties on them for industrial use while I'm the one growing them from cuttings nicked from his land :p :

[Hazell B]

The briquettes are brilliant!

Even if you get free wood, as I do too, they are warmer and easier. Well worth it to heat the place faster then use normal wood later at night. :up:

Oh, they made good horse bedding too. I've been playing sawdust mud pies all afternoon (in sub zero temps!) and now my big mare is crapping in comfort of a fluffy sawdust bed.