Briatore's ban overturned in French court

[Dave B]

Breaking news now on Sky. The sleazeball could return :s

Edit: Jon Noble's Twitter feed is saying the same.

[Sonic]

Boo, hiss, booooooo! (Sorry stuck in panto mode :D ).

Yes I think this was the expected outcome.

[christophulus]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80743

No surprises really. I don't suppose we'll see him back in F1 anytime soon though.

[Dave B]

€15,000 compensation apparently. That'll buy a new pair of gold-plated slippers.

Seriously, what are the odds of him returning to F1 now? He's clearly a talented businessman, but is also tainted goods and you do have to wonder if sponsors would want to be associated with him.

[ArrowsFA1]

Seriously, what are the odds of him returning to F1 now?
Unlikely I would have thought. He hasn't been found innocent of the charge of race fixing. It's just that the penalty imposed by the FIA has been found to be illegal.

[F1boat]

Good choice IMO.

[Copse]

Sensible and correct. Hopefully it'll teach the FIA to use a more proper process in their decision making in the future.

[Hondo]

Who else could the FIA burn? Flav and Pat were out in the wind, everybody else and their brother had immunity. They should have burned the little rat who went to the FIA with the story. Everybody wants to make Flav out to be sooooooo evil and maybe he is, but if he hadn't have fired Rat jr. halfway through, this story would still be buried.

[ArrowsFA1]

Flavio Briatore and his former Renault colleague Pat Symonds have won their court case against the FIA in Paris. The judge has ordered that the bans against both men must be lifted and has ordered the FIA to send out a message to all teams to that effect. It has 15 days in which to do so. The FIA has indicated that it may well appeal.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/

[I am evil Homer]

They cheated, they got caught. However the punishment was ridiculous and clearly handed down by Max.

I doubt Flavio will find employment and I think Symonds indicated no desire to return to F1 even if he was given one.

[UltimateDanGTR]

They cheated, they got caught. However the punishment was ridiculous and clearly handed down by Max.

I doubt Flavio will find employment and I think Symonds indicated no desire to return to F1 even if he was given one.

:thumbs:

perfectly summed up and agreed.

[rabf1]

I don't think a lifetime ban is a "ridiculous" penalty for conspiring to have one of your drivers crash intentionally (endangering his life and the lives of other competitors).

[anthonyvop]

Breaking news now on Sky. The sleazeball could return :s

.
Ron Dennis is coming back?

[ioan]

Sensible and correct. Hopefully it'll teach the FIA to use a more proper process in their decision making in the future.

:rotflmao:

[CNR]

Ron Dennis is coming back?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-1240141/Ron-Dennis-Ive-paid-price-dedicating-30-years-Formula-One.html

[Spygate] was a minor indiscretion by junior members of the organisation that got amplified into a bigger issue,’ says Dennis, in an interview with Esquire magazine. It wasn’t the way it was portrayed. As always, with the passing of time, the truth will come out.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-1240141/Ron-Dennis-Ive-paid-price-dedicating-30-years-Formula-One.html#ixzz0bm9k8KV7 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-1240141/Ron-Dennis-Ive-paid-price-dedicating-30-years-Formula-One.html#ixzz0bm9k8KV7)



http://www.paddockreport.com/index.php/autos/formula-1/f1-fia-responds-and-will-appeal-in-briatore-case/

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe he can pick up some of the sponsors that ditched Tiger. :p :

[Saint Devote]

As I have stated many times previously - the FIA decsion was unjust, vindictive and carried out by a power and not a court.

For the first time justice WAS carried out in this case and I say congratulations to Flavio.

Any team should take on the services of a manager that understands how to win championships and is the one that led both Schumacher and Alonso to double title wins.

The probability of this decision being overturned is zero.

The FIA is a capricious paranoid and overbearing organization - legalizing secret versions of cheating - the secret Ferrari veto - while aiming at its perceived enemies - Ron Dennis and Flavio Briatore - and trying to destroy them with its power - the $100 million fine and the prevention of Flavio to work.

Anyone supporting the FIA action is no different to them and the next time it takes action through its stewards or any other means do not be hypocritical and condemn the FIA.

Vive le justice!!!

[anthonyvop]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-1240141/Ron-Dennis-Ive-paid-price-dedicating-30-years-Formula-One.html

http://www.paddockreport.com/index.php/autos/formula-1/f1-fia-responds-and-will-appeal-in-briatore-case/


Ron Dennis can spin it anyway he wants. The Facts all point to the fact that his organization OBTAINED, POSSESSED & USED STOLEN PROPERTY.

The incident in Singapore pales in Comparison.

[Daniel]

Tony, they only had those Ferrari docs to look at them and have a good read, they weren't trying to gain any advantage! Honest!

[CNR]

Ron Dennis can spin it anyway he wants. The Facts all point to the fact that his organization OBTAINED, POSSESSED & USED STOLEN PROPERTY.

The incident in Singapore pales in Comparison.
i didn't do it it was someone else

was a minor indiscretion by junior members of the organisation that got amplified into a bigger issue

[Valve Bounce]

i didn't do it it was someone else

was a minor indiscretion by junior members of the organisation that got amplified into a bigger issue

"I'm innocent!" I didn't know anything about a crash! I was following the Bundesliga football at the time. The team I bet on was winning.

[I am evil Homer]

Can we not make this thread about Ron (again!)....this is about Flav and Symonds.

Anthony is way off...Renault knowingly endangered the life of a driver and others, far worse than industrial espionage. Problem is the FIA went about this all the wrong way, although you'd presume Symonds admission and Witness X's knowledge were enough to show Flavio knew about it.

[Garry Walker]

Seriously, what are the odds of him returning to F1 now? He's clearly a talented businessman, but is also tainted goods and you do have to wonder if sponsors would want to be associated with him.

Tainted goods? When has that stopped anyone before?

The odds of him returning are pretty good I would say, it all depends on his motivation. Seeing how his wife looks like, I can think of at least two reasons as to why he would not bother returning to F1.





Anyone supporting the FIA action is no different to them and the next time it takes action through its stewards or any other means do not be hypocritical and condemn the FIA.

Vive le justice!!!
Justice?
When in other sports you are caught cheating (using steroids for example), you are banned for 2 or for 3 years and on second time, you get banned for life.
Flavio does the same, actually he does something much worse (he endangered lives of the drivers, the marshalls and the public), gets convicted and now all the stupid FIA haters are actually cheering the decision to allow him back to F1?
I wonder how those people conduct their daily business and if they praise cheating and dishonest behaviour?

If you fools were able to look at it neutrally without your obvious hate for the FIA, you would find this decision disgusting (as anyone honest would), but no, your intellectual midgetry does not allow you to behave like that and rise above your hate.


Could anyone give me any rational reasons as to why this is a good decision?

NB! hating the FIA is not a rational reason

[Daniel]

Justice?
When in other sports you are caught cheating (using steroids for example), you are banned for 2 or for 3 years and on second time, you get banned for life.
Flavio does the same, actually he does something much worse (he endangered lives of the drivers, the marshalls and the public), gets convicted and now all the stupid FIA haters are actually cheering the decision to allow him back to F1?
I wonder how those people conduct their daily business and if they praise cheating and dishonest behaviour?

If you fools were able to look at it neutrally without your obvious hate for the FIA, you would find this decision disgusting (as anyone honest would), but no, your intellectual midgetry does not allow you to behave like that and rise above your hate.


Could anyone give me any rational reasons as to why this is a good decision?

NB! hating the FIA is not a rational reason
Garry? Have you not put the troll on your ignore list yet? I hadn't read that rubbish until you quoted it.

[Garry Walker]

Garry? Have you not put the troll on your ignore list yet? I hadn't read that rubbish until you quoted it.

I never put anyone on ignore list, never have and never will.

But I honestly do feel for you for you having to read his nonsense due to me quoting him and apologize.

[Daniel]

I never put anyone on ignore list, never have and never will.

But I honestly do feel for you for you having to read his nonsense due to me quoting him and apologize.
Apology accepted :p

I never used to use the ignore function but since I put people on there the forum has become a lot more enjoyable and very few facepalm moments :)

[Hondo]

As far as the Renault crash goes, I'm not sure that was cheating. Bad taste maybe, but not cheating. It really happened way too early in the race to ensure any result except a Piquet, Jr DNF and that could have been done by calling the car in for some phantom problem. It's not much different than other sports where a coach has a player fake an injury to stop the clock without using a time out. One thing is for sure and that should be the identity of "witness X". According to the appeal, only 4 people within the team knew about this and attended the discussion when it was decided. That would be Pat, Flav, Piquet, Jr., and X. X was the main witness for the FIA. Supposedly, X was the only one out of the three that was against the idea. Alonso or Piquet, Sr.? I can see Piquet, Sr, wanting to protect his kid and his superlicense but it's also strange that Renault didn't mind Alonso leaving a bit early either.

On the Ferrari-McLaren thing, I've thought there was a rat there from day one. I do think that McLaren was set-up on that deal and I believe the puppetmaster was Di Montemezolo. It wasn't personal against McLaren, it would have been tried on any team that pushed Ferrari hard that year. For all the wounded moaning coming out of the Ferrari camp I maintained it was a set-up and the final proof would be once the FIA had smacked McLaren down hard enough, Ferrari would drop the criminal charges. The criminal charges weren't dropped in the Toyota-Ferrari deal because that was a real industrial espionage case. The way the FIA rules and the language it uses in it's rules makes them almost impossible to fight and win unless they have a change of heart due to outside pressure or you go outside of them like Flav. In addition, way back when, I said Mclaren's absolute final punishment would not become final until the Renault with McLaren plans fiasco was settled. That was done to make McLaren behave properly with no screaming, shouting, and running to outside courts while Renault got their hand slapped and wandered off virturally untouched.

[Daniel]

As far as the Renault crash goes, I'm not sure that was cheating. Bad taste maybe, but not cheating. It really happened way too early in the race to ensure any result except a Piquet, Jr DNF and that could have been done by calling the car in for some phantom problem. It's not much different than other sports where a coach has a player fake an injury to stop the clock without using a time out. One thing is for sure and that should be the identity of "witness X". According to the appeal, only 4 people within the team knew about this and attended the discussion when it was decided. That would be Pat, Flav, Piquet, Jr., and X. X was the main witness for the FIA. Supposedly, X was the only one out of the three that was against the idea. Alonso or Piquet, Sr.? I can see Piquet, Sr, wanting to protect his kid and his superlicense but it's also strange that Renault didn't mind leaving a bit early either.

On the Ferrari-McLaren thing, I've thought there was a rat there from day one. I do think that McLaren was set-up on that deal and I believe the puppetmaster was Di Montemezolo. It wasn't personal against McLaren, it would have been tried on any team that pushed Ferrari hard that year. For all the wounded moaning coming out of the Ferrari camp I maintained it was a set-up and the final proof would be once the FIA had smacked McLaren down hard enough, Ferrari would drop the criminal charges. The criminal charges weren't dropped in the Toyota-Ferrari deal because that was a real industrial espionage case. The way the FIA rules and the language it uses in it's rules makes them almost impossible to fight and win unless they have a change of heart due to outside pressure or you go outside of them like Flav. In addition, way back when, I said Mclaren's absolute final punishment would not become final until the Renault with McLaren plans fiasco was settled. That was done to make McLaren behave properly with no screaming, shouting, and running to outside courts while Renault got their hand slapped and wandered off virturally untouched.
Whether cheating works or not it's still cheating.

[Hondo]

Was it cheating? Was the running order after the crash the exact same as the finishing order? was it race fixing or race strategy?

[Copse]

Justice?
When in other sports you are caught cheating (using steroids for example), you are banned for 2 or for 3 years and on second time, you get banned for life.
Flavio does the same, actually he does something much worse (he endangered lives of the drivers, the marshalls and the public), gets convicted and now all the stupid FIA haters are actually cheering the decision to allow him back to F1?
I wonder how those people conduct their daily business and if they praise cheating and dishonest behaviour?

If you fools were able to look at it neutrally without your obvious hate for the FIA, you would find this decision disgusting (as anyone honest would), but no, your intellectual midgetry does not allow you to behave like that and rise above your hate.

Could anyone give me any rational reasons as to why this is a good decision?


I dislike Flavio quite strongly, but I still welcome this decision.

The reason is that I do is very similar to Flavio's own main point of argument and the one the court seems to have agreed with. The decision was made in a completely arbitrary way, personally decided by Max Mosely, based not on facts and rules, but on what he felt was "right". It was decided before the meeting, a meeting of a body that has shown in the past that it operates as nothing but a bunch of puppets for the president. The FIA does have statutes, rule books and principles determining how its role as rule keeper should be executed, but this case made it clear to everyone that they were either ignored, or that they lack the appropriate due process for an organisation of FIAs type.

The punishments were, IMO, appropriate. However, the way they were decided was completely inappropriate, and should be rightly be thrown out. Re-trial would be a good solution, if that would be possible (which I doubt it is).

You mention doping bans from other sports. There is a reason that the standard is a 2 or 3 year ban the first time, and not life. Various prejudicial cases have decided that banning somebody for life from what is their livelihood is excessive for a first charge cheating. The second time around, otoh it has been accepted. Life bans have been handed out in very serious cases, and I do think that the Flavio case is one, and that the life ban is reasonable compared to other sports. As I mentioned in the thread where Flavio's initial appeal was discussed, civil courts have examined bans in other sports, sometimes saying ok, and sometimes invalidiating them, not uncommonly on procedural reasons. The difference is that other governing bodies, such as the FIS (skiing) and the UCI (cycling) have had time to develop proper processes for them to act according to in their role as both prosecutor and judge. The FIA clearly hasn't. They need to!

Flavio should be banned for life, but because he broke serious rules and endangered lives. Not because Max dislikes him.

As a summary: We praise this decision because we value the rule of law higher than revenge. Your comments make it seem like you would fit in quite well as a policeman in some kind of dictatorial state. That usually works rather well right up until it is you or your family that get summarily sentenced and executed.

[I am evil Homer]

Garry i'm not cheering the return of flav at all...i'd rather he never came back after what he did. However, the way the FIA handled the entire episode struck me and others as a kangaroo court. It wasn't a transparent process.

I suspect the FIA may win an appeal actually with the evidence it has claiming that is sufficient to not let Flavio run a team again but no one has seen it. In terms of driver management I think they really cannot stop him.

[CNR]

As far as the Renault crash goes, I'm not sure that was cheating.

Q: can you bet on a driver not to finish a race ?

[christophulus]

Bernie would welcome him back (what a shock..)


"I said at the time that even murderers don't get life sentences these days and the court seems to agree," Ecclestone told the Daily Express newspaper.

"He is welcome to come back to the paddock. He was a great character in F1 but I am not sure if that is what he wants to do now. I think he will move on from that.

"It's good for him but it is not good for the FIA when you read the verdict."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80751

[Valve Bounce]

I would like to see Sleazy Flav come back to F1 and turn up in Singapore for the GP there. I think that he will find Singapore an enduring place to spend some jail time.

[Daniel]

I would like to see Sleazy Flav come back to F1 and turn up in Singapore for the GP there. I think that he will find Singapore an enduring place to spend some jail time.
Perhaps a public caning for him? I bet Max would love to join in on that! :D

[Valve Bounce]

Perhaps a public caning for him? I bet Max would love to join in on that! :D

I do remember one case which created a hue and cry worldwide: Michael Fay, American teenager student was caught vandalising some cars and he was caned for his transgression. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_P._Fay

The case disappeared from world news just after the caning when another news item received a helluva lot more publicity: OJ was arrested for the murder of his wife and her friend.

[Daniel]

I do remember one case which created a hue and cry worldwide: Michael Fay, American teenager student was caught vandalising some cars and he was caned for his transgression. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_P._Fay

The case disappeared just after the caning when another news item just after received a helluva lot more publicity: OJ was arrested for the murder of his wife and her friend.
I remember that well.

[JSH]

Ron Dennis can spin it anyway he wants. The Facts all point to the fact that his organization OBTAINED, POSSESSED & USED STOLEN PROPERTY.

The incident in Singapore pales in Comparison.

Telling someone to crash in order to influence a race result is a little worse than behaviour carried out by every single race team the world over, and every single automotive firm and supplier the world over.

There's not a single race team, auto firm or auto supplier in the world that doesn't "benchmark". Mclaren's failure was they made the mistake to get caught and get caught with evidence in hand.

[garyshell]

Ron Dennis can spin it anyway he wants. The Facts all point to the fact that his organization OBTAINED, POSSESSED & USED STOLEN PROPERTY.

The incident in Singapore pales in Comparison.


Oh please! Who's lives were put in danger by the alleged use of the pilfered property? Do you really have such little value for human life that you would say something as ridiculous as this?

Gary

[ioan]

Mclaren's failure was they made the mistake to get caught and get caught with evidence in hand.

Rubbish. McLaren's failure to acknowledge that they were caught is what is the worse they did. They are a bunch of effin' cheaters and liars.

[Hondo]

I get tickled about everybody talking about how sleezy Flav is. Like this was all Flav. Remember, it was all well and good until that no car driving whining little b!tch Piquet Jr. got fired. Then it became an issue real sudden like. It's too bad, that crash was probably Piquet's greatest contribution to team success as long as he'd been there. Don't look for Piquet Jr in NASCAR. They play in the gray areas far too often to have a rat on board the team.

You'd be so disappointed if you found out what really went on in the industry.

It is a laughable and, yes, pathetic, that other activities somehow make "Spygate" more acceptable.

Futhermore, a Live feed of information from a rival team is not an everyday occurence.

Of course, having worked in the industry you should know that.

Although admittedly canteen staff are usually busy washing dishes, so your ignorance can be excused.

[SGWilko]

Although admittedly canteen staff are usually busy washing dishes, so your ignorance can be excused.

You are almost as risible as Cannon & Ball.

[anthonyvop]

Q: can you bet on a driver not to finish a race ?

Yep

[ioan]

Was there really any need to be offensive??? :confused: :mad:

Yep, there was.



Stop trolling the threads looking for arguements! You've never worked in motorsport so how are you a credible source?

Look who's talking! :laugh:

You are almost as risible as Cannon & Ball.

Rock On Tommy!

[anthonyvop]

I am all for Briatore being punished but let the penalty fit the crime and have it be equal.

Was Senna Banned for Life?

Was Schumacher?

Senna's action was by far the most objectionable. The man willfully drove into a competitor in order to remove him for the race(and the Championship). Much worse than Piquet Jr backing his own car into a wall.

[anthonyvop]

You'd be so disappointed if you found out what really went on in the industry.

And your are in the Industry????

You've never worked in motorsport so how are you a credible source?

If you wish to believe that, so be it.

Although, since you are making statements about the 'industry' and what it does, how are you a credible source?

Not Formula One no, I do have an element of inside knowledge through colleagues but I don't claim to work in F1. :)

So you have zero credibility.

[ioan]

And your are in the Industry????

I believe he had once an internship at Arrows F1, probably making sandwiches for the mechanics! ;)

[ioan]

Industrial espionage is not uncommon, although obviously its rarely talked about. I have witnessed this first hand btw.

What secrets have you sold? Mayonnaise first and then ketchup?



If you honestly believe that Mclaren were the first team in the history of the sport to use data/drawings/plans etc, then I feel you are welcome to this stance. I happen to believe that in the long history of the sport where winning is everything, the chances of teams previously never using stolen data is very slim. Toyota, Benetton, Ferrari and Mclaren have all been accused in the past of industrial cheating. What I object to is you declaring your opinion as fact, and telling everyone else they are pathetic.

You are missing the part where Ron Dennis denied everything for months and called everyone else liars, pretty much unprecedented hypocrisy and misbehavior in F1.

If you honestly believe that Mclaren were the first team in the history of the sport to use data/drawings/plans etc, then I feel you are welcome to this stance. I happen to believe that in the long history of the sport where winning is everything, the chances of teams previously never using stolen data is very slim.

There are plenty of instances of data passing to another team when employees leave.

Happens in every industry.

In F1, there has never been before an instance of a live-feed of info direct to a rival.

If you cannot see the the difference, then you're in denial.

[CNR]

Q: what happened where force india(spyker) stole the blueprints of the toro rosso to prove that it was a redbull car ?

[ioan]

Q: what happened where force india(spyker) stole the blueprints of the toro rosso to prove that it was a redbull car ?

It happened that they didn't try to hide the fact that they had the document and they also didn't try to integrate STR designs in their own car.

[Saint Devote]

Rubbish. McLaren's failure to acknowledge that they were caught is what is the worse they did. They are a bunch of effin' cheaters and liars.

On the other hand Ferrari were given a legal cheating hand with the secret FIA sanctioned technical veto.

The issue here is not about cheating - it has always been about personal vendetta's by Max against certain individuals.

Briatore is no worse than Schumacher or Senna were for deliberately crashing into people.

[Saint Devote]

You are missing the part where Ron Dennis denied everything for months and called everyone else liars, pretty much unprecedented hypocrisy and misbehavior in F1.

Don't make me laugh - heard of Enzo Ferrari amongst others?

F1 is and always has been a tough business. Reaching for or engineering the "unfair advantage" has and always will go on.

The Briatore issue was vendetta not justice.

The French court was correct to rule as it did - now for Briatore and the Piquets time to fight in court!!

[pino]

Guys I am going to ask this only once:

Stop posting personal comments/attacks and keep it on topic ! And to those who wants to continue their childish fights, do it via PM.

[SGWilko]

you're in denial.

Or deThames, if you live in London.......

[SGWilko]

[quote="pino"]Guys I am going to ask this only once:
QUOTE]

Ooohhhh, Rene!!!

[Garry Walker]

As far as the Renault crash goes, I'm not sure that was cheating. Bad taste maybe, but not cheating. It really happened way too early in the race to ensure any result except a Piquet, Jr DNF and that could have been done by calling the car in for some phantom problem. It's not much different than other sports where a coach has a player fake an injury to stop the clock without using a time out.
.
Do you actually know what happened?
It was cheating and it was cheating bigtime. With the SC rules being what they were, renault designed a strategy for Alonso to win by pitting him early and then having Piquet crash and ruin everyone elses strategies. It gave him alonso a very good chance of winning as he got the lead, otherwise he would have had no chance.

Piquet having a DNF was for only one reason - to get Alonso the win, so I see no reason why you talk about "possible phantom problems"




As a summary: We praise this decision because we value the rule of law higher than revenge. Your comments make it seem like you would fit in quite well as a policeman in some kind of dictatorial state. That usually works rather well right up until it is you or your family that get summarily sentenced and executed.

I am not quite sure where you came up with that idiotic comment, but hey whatever floats your boat.
What was wrong with the way the penalty was given to FB? Mosley was involved?



. In terms of driver management I think they really cannot stop him.
yes they can. They simply wont give SL to the drivers he manages.


On the other hand Ferrari were given a legal cheating hand with the secret FIA sanctioned technical veto..

that was not cheating.

[I am evil Homer]

Ha ha try getting the SL block on Briatore drivers to stand up in court....clue: it won't due to EU employment law.

[Garry Walker]

Ha ha try getting the SL block on Briatore drivers to stand up in court....clue: it won't due to EU employment law.

If Briatore is banned from being involved in F1, he also cannot manage the drivers.

[pino]

I am not quite sure where you came up with that idiotic comment, but hey whatever floats your boat.



How about we quit insults as well...

[I am evil Homer]

If Briatore is banned from being involved in F1, he also cannot manage the drivers.

Not a chance the FIA a) has that as a ratified punishment on its books and thus b) could legally enforce it.

Sure you can ban him from team management positions but blocking drivers he manages? Not gonna happen.

[Garry Walker]

How about we quit insults as well...

Did you actually read his comment about me being suited as a policeman in a dictatorship and why single out me, especially as I did not insult him, but rather attacked his post regarding me?

The fact that Mclaren had a "live feed" of information in the months prior to the 2007 season and up to the first race was, I agree the first to be proved. Mclaren were fined for receiving it through a rogue employee, so why weren't Ferrari fined for allowing their rogue employee pass on this information?

Because Ferrari were the victim.

How would it be justice to fine the victim? How were Ferrari to benefit from the actions of their rogue employee?

[pino]

Did you actually read his comment about me being suited as a policeman in a dictatorship and why single out me, especially as I did not insult him, but rather attacked his post regarding me?

Yes I did read his comment that's why I posted a request to everyone, to quit personal comments/attacks...did you actually read that ?

[ioan]

If Briatore is banned from being involved in F1, he also cannot manage the drivers.

That's the problem. They can not enforce a ban that involves the drivers he is managing.
They either need all the drivers to give up on Briatore management or change the sanction to something that doesn't involve the drivers.

Anyway I doubt that any team would hire him as well as I doubt that a new team run by him would get a place on the grid, if he was to start a team.

[ioan]

Because Ferrari were the victim.

How would it be justice to fine the victim? How were Ferrari to benefit from the actions of their rogue employee?

Everything is possible in the McLaren fan parallel 'reality'. ;)

Evidently the questions were too difficult.

So, to show that I am fair, I'll ask a really simple one.

If, in your cut-throat industry, one of your work colleagues passed critical and current live-feed info to a direct competitor........clearly assisting said competitor and damaging your own companies competitive position..........would you expect your own company to be fined?

[Mia 01]

I belive that FIA can still stop Favio from beeing part of the F1 enviroment.

[Mia 01]

Yes but they are keen to show the sport that now under Todt, they are an impartial, credible organisation. If they change the rules as Max has suggested in the Daily Telegraph, purely to keep Flav out of the sport, then they are in danger of being as comical as demonstrated in the past 3 seasons. :)

Risking others life is no minor crime.

[Copse]

I am not quite sure where you came up with that idiotic comment, but hey whatever floats your boat.


I apologise if my comment came out as a personal attack or insult to you. It was meant as a drawing your rather unfriendly "I wonder how those people conduct their daily business..." reasoning to its extreme. I realise in afterthought that it sounded worse than I intended.

My point was an attempt to emphasize the difference between when you think bad guys get what they deserve because who you consider a bad guy happens to also be a bad guy in the eyes of those in power, and when bad guys get penalties they deserve actually based on a trial that examines the facts and gives them a proper chance to argue their point first.

Only in the second case can you have any hope that the views on who is a "bad guy" will correspond the next time.

[motetarip]

Mclaren were fined for receiving it through a rogue employee, so why weren't Ferrari fined for allowing their rogue employee pass on this information?

The real issue is that the intellectual property rights for the car design belong to Ferrari, not Nigel Stepney. The 'crime' is possession of that information without the copyright holder's authorisation - intellectual property theft - so only McLaren and Renault can be held liable in that respect.

Why Renault were found guilty and not fined is a very questionable matter.

The real issue is that the intellectual property rights for the car design belong to Ferrari, not Nigel Stepney. The 'crime' is possession of that information without the copyright holder's authorisation - intellectual property theft - so only McLaren and Renault can be held liable in that respect.

Why Renault were found guilty and not fined is a very questionable matter.

Correct on the first part.

As for the second.....do not forget that initially Mclaren were also not fined.

It was only after it emerged that Mclaren had not been honest with the FIA at the first hearing that they were fined at the second.

Renault were, unlike Mclaren, open with the FIA and, crucially, did not attempt to mislead the FIA.

This included allowing Mclaren to hand-pick the investigative IT firm to look on Renault's systems.

Furthermore, Renault were only called to one disciplinary hearing.

Oh, and also worth pointing out that Mackereth's info was not a live-feed.

[motetarip]

Having read the WMSC decision I'd say the penalty was escaped as it was unproven or unprovable that Renault intended to incorporate McLaren design into their car. I wouldn't say that Renault were completely honest in their own internal investigation report.

McLaren do have a nasty habit of making life difficult for themselves.

[Mia 01]

The chrashgate was Flavios wrong, no doubt.

The spygate was not Rons wrongdoing, in the first place I belive, But in the second??

And the liegate, what have you done Ron!

[Mia 01]

Ron wasn't completely honest at first, but that may have been a) because he was assured by his personel that they had done nothing wrong, b) He was conducting an internal investigation and was unsure of the facts.

Flav knew about crashgate as it was impossible to be on the pitwall giving direction and have no knowledge IMO.

Liegate as far as I am aware did not involve Ron as he had stepped down by this point I do believe. It was the fault of Lewis Hamilton, Dave Ryan and the PR team. :)

According rumours, they was phoning Ron before the second hearing.

[AndyRAC]

While the FiA/WMSC/Max's ban was extremely ham fisted, as far as I'm concerned, somebody like Flav has no place in F1, or any other Motorsport for that matter. Endangering life by way of an organised accident is the lowest of the low. Sod off and don't come back!!

[I am evil Homer]

I agree but that doesn't mean driver's his firm manages shouldn't get superlicences!

[Mia 01]

The rumour is that witness X is FA, he did know, should have been banned for a while.

Junior, well his driving skills didn´t impress me.

[garyshell]

I agree but that doesn't mean driver's his firm manages shouldn't get superlicences!

No, but it means he should be banned from ALL involvment with anything related to F1, including manageing drivers. And there is only one way, I know of, to enforce that rule.

Gary

[motetarip]

if they were the first case of cheating? Renault IMO should have recieved a fine at the very least, as the fine given to Mclaren was never reported as being for their dishonesty with the investigation, rather the possession of the stolen data originally... :)

I almost wrote that but also considered that punishment is often determined in 'normal' courts according to the defendant's behaviour, e.g. lesser sentence for pleading guilty.

I almost wrote that but also considered that punishment is often determined in 'normal' courts according to the defendant's behaviour, e.g. lesser sentence for pleading guilty.

Unfortunately some Mclaren fans have never understood simple concepts of law, hence statements that Ferrari should have been fined and so on.

He got in there first and then denied that any of the data had been used etc

Before Hungary, and the betrayal of Fernando by Ron & Lewis, Ron originally denied everything, saying his team had integrity.

[Mia 01]

Before Hungary, and the betrayal of Fernando by Ron & Lewis, Ron originally denied everything, saying his team had integrity.


No suprise, remember liegate last year.

MacLaren isn´t a clean team.

[ioan]

It was reported at the time that the information Renault had in their possession, had reached a far greater audience than the data Mclaren had recieved from Stepney.

And pigs can fly too.

[ioan]

Possessing 780 drawings outlining the entire technical blueprint of the 2006 and 2007 McLaren cars is not exactly small.



The 780 were not drawing but pages and were not Mclaren docs but Ferrari ones.

Renault had a few floppy discs with 3 McLaren systems on them.

[motetarip]

What justification can there ever be for uploading your last team's blueprints onto your new teams computers.

[ioan]

What justification can there ever be for uploading your last team's blueprints onto your new teams computers.

The same as with using another teams blueprints and other documentation.

[motetarip]

The 780 were not drawing but pages and were not Mclaren docs but Ferrari ones.

Renault had a few floppy discs with 3 McLaren systems on them.

Not as I understand it.

All the WMSC could prove is that 4 aspects of the McLaren design were shared at Renault amongst the engineers, and that none of those aspects were integrated into the Renault car. There was plenty more information stored on Mackereth's Renault computer but none that could be proven to have been disseminated within the team. Because people aren't allowed to look over other peoples shoulder's at work..

Please read and digest: http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/wmsc/wmsc08/Pages/wmsc_071207a.aspx

[motetarip]

The same as with using another teams blueprints and other documentation.

I think you might have agreed with me there :eek:

I'm not saying McLaren weren't guilty, I do think Renault should have been punished though.

[Big Ben]

I have never liked the prick but all this proves what most of us think: that there is no justice in the way FIA enforces its rules. Penalties are based on personal grudges most of the time.

[Valve Bounce]

I have never liked the prick but all this proves what most of us think: that there is no justice in the way FIA enforces its rules. Penalties are based on personal grudges most of the time.

Yeah! but Max had the whip hand, didn't he!!

[Easy Drifter]

The title of this thread should be changed to 'Rehash, yet again, what happened 2 years ago.'

It would be nice to get back to something resembling current events.

[ozrevhead]

I have never liked the prick but all this proves what most of us think: that there is no justice in the way FIA enforces its rules. Penalties are based on personal grudges most of the time.
it was the right thing to ban him for life IMHO they just didnt do the right thing regarding the process......

now FIA rules are made irrelevent as now if you get a penalty you can run to the courts and get it overtuned

They should appeal for that reason alone and release in full everything that was done in the trial to prove transperency (from revealing mr x and everything else that happend)


One thing that still annoys me in all this, is the fact Piquet Jr has got away with it for the majority of his part. The publicity is on Flav and his immunity has enabled him to continue racing. Robert Kubica summed up Piquets involvement perfectly:

But has he - legally maybe BUT he is damaged goods and wont be considerd by any sane motorsport team and after this Flavio and Symodns is free to be involved in whatever mode of motorsport takes his fancy - they probally have strickt conditions forced apon them by Governing Bodies but they will be there

DO you honestly believe Piquet Jr what the ONLY one involved?

[jens]

Well, whether he is banned or not, doesn't matter much for me. But I'm not really looking forward to Flavio's return to F1, let him be the past.

Possessing 780 drawings outlining the entire technical blueprint of the 2006 and 2007 McLaren cars is not exactly small.


http://blog.taragana.com/sports/2009/12/13/briatore-knew-he-was-guilty-for-f1-spygate-mosley-55865/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2327879/F1-Spygate-cloud-still-looms-over-Renault.html

http://www.asiaone.com/Motoring/News/Story/A1Story20071129-38881.html

All this summarizing and I haven't once succumb to the motorsport forum protocol of labelling people who disagree with me as "haters". How big am I?.. :p

No, but since you summary is grossly inaccurate it speaks volumes itself about your attitude.

EXAMPLE 1 - The first article you quote is full of factual errors. Anybody with any knowledge instantly recognises that.

Why, then, did you use it as a link if not to deliberately mislead?

EXAMPLE 2 - The second link quotes as follows "The essential difference between the McLaren and Renault cases seems to be that there is no evidence that Renault used the information, while incriminating emails emerged from McLaren suggesting that Ferrari data was being used by the British team."

That does not back up your claim. Far from it, it contradicts it.

EXAMPLE 3 - The third link merely quotes a Mclaren press release which was later withdrawn and the allegation within it retracted following an apology by Mclaren to Renault and the FIA.

In summary, either you do not know the facts or you are misleading the forum.

10.1. The WMSC notes that in advance of the hearing there had been statements in the press indicating that Renault had possession of very large numbers of McLaren drawings. McLaren has acknowledged to the WMSC that it circulated an erroneous press briefing which had created this impression, and has apologised and issued a correction.

http://www.f1technical.net/news/7784

Furthermore, Mackereth did not have full plans of the 2006 Mclaren, and no plans of the 2008 car as you have falsely claimed.

"4.3. Although volume is no indicator of value, to offer a sense of perspective, of the 762 pages of information taken by Mackereth, 111 pages contained McLaren information and were transferred to Renault’s systems or premises (about 15%) and were therefore theoretically under Renault’s control."

and

"5.12. The investigations revealed that Mackereth took a relatively significant volume of information from McLaren.However, the evidence supports the conclusion that only four items were ever shown to or made known to persons at Renault. McLaren made submissions that other documents might have been discussed, disseminated or used but after its own extensive investigations can offer no evidence to this effect. Nor has the FIA’s own investigation indicated any such evidence"

http://www.f1technical.net/news/7784

you see, you should really check facts.

[SGWilko]

10.1. The WMSC notes that in advance of the hearing there had been statements in the press indicating that Renault had possession of very large numbers of McLaren drawings. McLaren has acknowledged to the WMSC that it circulated an erroneous press briefing which had created this impression, and has apologised and issued a correction.

http://www.f1technical.net/news/7784

Furthermore, Mackereth did not have full plans of the 2006 Mclaren, and no plans of the 2008 car as you have falsely claimed.

"4.3. Although volume is no indicator of value, to offer a sense of perspective, of the 762 pages of information taken by Mackereth, 111 pages contained McLaren information and were transferred to Renault’s systems or premises (about 15%) and were therefore theoretically under Renault’s control."

and

"5.12. The investigations revealed that Mackereth took a relatively significant volume of information from McLaren.However, the evidence supports the conclusion that only four items were ever shown to or made known to persons at Renault. McLaren made submissions that other documents might have been discussed, disseminated or used but after its own extensive investigations can offer no evidence to this effect. Nor has the FIA’s own investigation indicated any such evidence"

http://www.f1technical.net/news/7784

you see, you should really check facts.

And Neil Armstrong didn't land on the moon - just out in the desert somewhere. Never prove it of course, but it looked real enough......
And, of course, the WMSC, and indeed the FIA have recently been shown to be not particularly 'on the correct side of the law' when it comes to legal matters.....

And Neil Armstrong didn't land on the moon - just out in the desert somewhere. Never prove it of course, but it looked real enough......
And, of course, the WMSC, and indeed the FIA have recently been shown to be not particularly 'on the correct side of the law' when it comes to legal matters.....

So no facts to refute those I stated, just the normal pro-Mclaren hogwash diversion tactic.

Mclaren - Guilty far beyond Renault? - Proven by facts.

Renault - Guilty equally with Mclaren? - Utter supposition with no proven facts.

[AndyRAC]

And Neil Armstrong didn't land on the moon - just out in the desert somewhere. Never prove it of course, but it looked real enough......
And, of course, the WMSC, and indeed the FIA have recently been shown to be not particularly 'on the correct side of the law' when it comes to legal matters.....

The FiA/WMSC have behaved like a Kangaroo court, as is per usual......