gordon kirby the way it is

[spiritone]

A very good article by one of the old timers in ow. I'm not good at the link thing but if you go to gordon kirby.com the article is on the righthand side. the title is the way it is 12,21,09. Makes some interesting points.

Maybe some computor savey member can post the link.

[Helicon_One]

link (http://gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2009/the_way_it_is_no215.html)

[champcarray]

A key quote from Tony Cicale that sums up how far the series now has to climb: "George's failures were brought into sharp focus in 2009 as only five Americans raced Indy cars on a regular basis this past year--Graham Rahal, Danica Patrick, Marco Andretti, Ryan Hunter-Reay and Ed Carpenter. And for the first time in the sport's hundred-year history not a single American driver won an Indy car race! "

[Scotty G.]

And for the first time in the sport's hundred-year history not a single American driver won an Indy car race! "

Ole' Gordo musta missed (along with every other racing fan in America) the last year of Champ Car, where no Americans won a race either.

Or does Gordo only count those CART/Champ Car records when its convenient for his arguments?

[chuck34]

How many more articles about how great CART was do we need? Why don't we start posting stuff about how great Can-Am was, or F1 from the 60's, or what about the IRL in about 98-0W? Let's all just b!tch and moan all the time about how great things used to be, build those days up so much that NOTHING will ever live up to that idealized notion of "greatness". I'm sorry but I am sick and tired of all the looking back and whishing for that. Guess what, THAT'S THE PAST, IT'S NOT COMMING BACK EVER! We live in a different time with different circumstances. Even if EVERYTHING was to be put back in place from CART it wouldn't be the same, so get over it.

[Blancvino]

How many more articles about how great CART was do we need? Why don't we start posting stuff about how great Can-Am was, or F1 from the 60's, or what about the IRL in about 98-0W? Let's all just b!tch and moan all the time about how great things used to be, build those days up so much that NOTHING will ever live up to that idealized notion of "greatness". I'm sorry but I am sick and tired of all the looking back and whishing for that. Guess what, THAT'S THE PAST, IT'S NOT COMMING BACK EVER! We live in a different time with different circumstances. Even if EVERYTHING was to be put back in place from CART it wouldn't be the same, so get over it.

So the points articulated in the article are not valid?

[The instant classic]

How many more articles about how great CART was do we need? Why don't we start posting stuff about how great Can-Am was, or F1 from the 60's, or what about the IRL in about 98-0W? Let's all just b!tch and moan all the time about how great things used to be, build those days up so much that NOTHING will ever live up to that idealized notion of "greatness". I'm sorry but I am sick and tired of all the looking back and whishing for that. Guess what, THAT'S THE PAST, IT'S NOT COMMING BACK EVER! We live in a different time with different circumstances. Even if EVERYTHING was to be put back in place from CART it wouldn't be the same, so get over it.

i 100% agree

[Marbles]

Good read... the article... that is. I don't think I've ever read a formers insider view of thing as they stand now that sounded so... uhm... genuine. He sounds somewhat tormented by it, when he's not wind surfing.

[garyshell]

How many more articles about how great CART was do we need? Why don't we start posting stuff about how great Can-Am was, or F1 from the 60's, or what about the IRL in about 98-0W? Let's all just b!tch and moan all the time about how great things used to be, build those days up so much that NOTHING will ever live up to that idealized notion of "greatness". I'm sorry but I am sick and tired of all the looking back and whishing for that. Guess what, THAT'S THE PAST, IT'S NOT COMMING BACK EVER! We live in a different time with different circumstances. Even if EVERYTHING was to be put back in place from CART it wouldn't be the same, so get over it.

Take up your beef with Gordon Kirby. He posted this article on 12/21/2009. You act as if someone here dug up some old article or something.

Gary

[Wilf]

Take up your beef with Gordon Kirby. He posted this article on 12/21/2009. You act as if someone here dug up some old article or something.

Gary

Some seem to believe that promoting an article conjuring up the way we remember it and wishing that is the way it is today is whining.

As a Fellow Old Timer, I agree.

There was a lot that was exciting; but there was also corruption, humdrum and devastation that we fail to remember.

With a statement like this: "I watched the races this year, but I can't think of one that stood out as an even acceptable race." One has to wonder why Tony Cicale wasn't moved by Ed Carpenter's run at Kentucky or Justin Wilson's win for long time CART driver/owner Dale Coyne? Or maybe his memory isn't what it used to be?????

[F1boat]

The article is too pessimistic, last year's races were not that bad. And hopefully IRL will grow. I keep my fingers crossed, as I still think that Indy Car is the 2nd best form of racing, after F1.

[DexDexter]

Good article but I wish those people would stop this "best in the world-stuff" which is so common thing to say in American sports. It's pretty bold to state something is best in the world if you only got experience of racing in North America.

To me Cart was very enjoyable in the 90's, we had great Eurosport coverage in Europe and the races (excluding the ovals) were generally fun to watch.

[fan-veteran]

It was good to watch F1 race in afternoon and then - CART in the evening :)

[F1boat]

It was good to watch F1 race in afternoon and then - CART in the evening :)

yes, it was very cool!

[chuck34]

So the points articulated in the article are not valid?

Actually, no, some aren't valid. He goes on and on bemoaning how his precious safety has been compromised. B.S.! The IRL is, and always has been, VERY focused on safety. Sure there have been problems, but they have been very quick and pragmatic in adressing them. Where does Cicale think that Safer Beariers came from, or does he not think that they are any good? Or how about any of the other developments? The whole last half of the article is dedicated to this IRL isn't safe BS and in my opinion for him to go on like that means that he either isn't paying attention, or is an all out IRL hater, and frankly I think it's a bit of both.

[chuck34]

Take up your beef with Gordon Kirby. He posted this article on 12/21/2009. You act as if someone here dug up some old article or something.

Gary

My beef is with Kirby, Cicale, and the poster.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Chuck..I guess you forgot the early days of this new car when that solid gear box was messing up people's backs? The fact is, the IRL didn't respond right away.

I didn't think anything in the article was a lie. The results of that era compared to where we are now speak for themselves. That said, it isn't helpful to the cause now to bemoan it. Cicale I think is a bit bitter that a lot of what happened there has been more or less erased, but to the victor of sorts go the spoils....

[chuck34]

Chuck..I guess you forgot the early days of this new car when that solid gear box was messing up people's backs? The fact is, the IRL didn't respond right away.

I didn't think anything in the article was a lie. The results of that era compared to where we are now speak for themselves. That said, it isn't helpful to the cause now to bemoan it. Cicale I think is a bit bitter that a lot of what happened there has been more or less erased, but to the victor of sorts go the spoils....

I don't think that's true. The attenuators showed up pretty quick. They have gone through some itterations for improvements, but isn't that what you want? Also, the '95 Champ cars (pre-split) weren't perfect either. Remember Buddy Lazier, just to name one. Flying cars are mostly a thing of the past as well. I'm sure there are more as well. Sure some of the things didn't happen as quickly as you or I may have liked, but that is probably because race cars are VERY dynamic creatures, and no one wants to creat unintended consequences with their "fix". So they put in a ton of study into the problem. What about PT breaking his back at 30mph in one of the "safe" champ cars? Cicale must have just forgotten about that. Bottom line, no race car is, or ever will be, 100% safe. As long as someone is working the problems, then I see no issue.

Cicale is most definately bitter. But tell me exactly what has been erased about the past? The article seems to paint a picture that the IRL doesn't care about safety. Can you honestly tell me that is the case?

If he really wants to see multiple chassis manufacturers back in the sport (a position that I agree with) a better way to go about it would be to present that idea in a context of what that WILL do for the sport. Bitching and moaning about how you want things to be the way they were in the past, and wasn't that so great, skipping over all the bad stuff, only looking at things in the best light, etc. does NOTHING to move the sport forward. If you just want to whine about how "YOUR" sport was ruined by "the idiot Grandson" then this article, and ones like it, serve your purposes quite well. But if you really wanted to move things forward there are better ways to do it.

[Blancvino]

I don't think that's true. The attenuators showed up pretty quick. They have gone through some itterations for improvements, but isn't that what you want? Also, the '95 Champ cars (pre-split) weren't perfect either. Remember Buddy Lazier, just to name one. Flying cars are mostly a thing of the past as well. I'm sure there are more as well. Sure some of the things didn't happen as quickly as you or I may have liked, but that is probably because race cars are VERY dynamic creatures, and no one wants to creat unintended consequences with their "fix". So they put in a ton of study into the problem. What about PT breaking his back at 30mph in one of the "safe" champ cars? Cicale must have just forgotten about that. Bottom line, no race car is, or ever will be, 100% safe. As long as someone is working the problems, then I see no issue.

Cicale is most definately bitter. But tell me exactly what has been erased about the past? The article seems to paint a picture that the IRL doesn't care about safety. Can you honestly tell me that is the case?

If he really wants to see multiple chassis manufacturers back in the sport (a position that I agree with) a better way to go about it would be to present that idea in a context of what that WILL do for the sport. Bitching and moaning about how you want things to be the way they were in the past, and wasn't that so great, skipping over all the bad stuff, only looking at things in the best light, etc. does NOTHING to move the sport forward. If you just want to whine about how "YOUR" sport was ruined by "the idiot Grandson" then this article, and ones like it, serve your purposes quite well. But if you really wanted to move things forward there are better ways to do it.

It seems (at least to me), when someone critiques the IMS/IRL you take exception to it and retaliate. I'm glad you defend you preferred series. I would expect no less. I encourage you to do a side by side comparison of the IRL vs. CART/Champcar safety. The results are rather startling.

SAFER Barriers are a great invention. I am pretty sure they were developed as a direct result of the incredibly high number of broken backs cased by the back heavy, and yes, unsafe IRL cars. Add to that, the IRL did little about the "Flying" cars until Tony Rena bit it in turn 3 at Indianapolis (December 2003). One would have though when Mario nearly flew over the catch fence (May 2003) the brain trust would have done something drastic to keep the cars on the track. I think Cicale's claim that safety was a higher priority during the CART years holds a lot of weight.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Chuck I don't disagree that the ChampCar/CART series had their odd incident where you wondered. The DP-01 gave PT his back injury in the first race however, and nothing really happened after that made us think it was anything other than freak occurence. Buddy Lazier's bad accident didn't happen in CART, that was the IRL using old ancient CART cars berore the current formula came along.

The attenuators did show up, but Cicale and a few other engineers knew they should have been there from the word go, and I think THAT is where his complaint had merit.

AS for his whining about Tony George, the proof is what it is. He ripped apart the sport to "Save" it from itself and we have now a weaker, less competitive version of what he railed against. It is an old tired argument and not productive to where we have to go, but it is a valid statment. The results don't lie on that score.

I think it was an article appropriate 3 years ago, not now. WE need new ideas, and less rehashing. At some point, the hatchet has to be buried some place else than Tony George's back, even if it gives some comfort to a few bitter die hards.

[dataman1]

Come on Chuck. every veteran, be their sport/job football, serving in time of war, sailing, duck hunting or motosports will remember the past and wonder if they did their best, did they contribute, could they have done better, etc. They will also feel as though they made their passion or the world a better place to be.

I'd invite you to go sit in the bar of an American Legion Post some evening to get a taste of remembering the old days. Even better sit with your grand father some day and have him talk about his past. I bet he says something like "those were the good old days".

[chuck34]

Chuck I don't disagree that the ChampCar/CART series had their odd incident where you wondered. The DP-01 gave PT his back injury in the first race however, and nothing really happened after that made us think it was anything other than freak occurence. Buddy Lazier's bad accident didn't happen in CART, that was the IRL using old ancient CART cars berore the current formula came along.

Lazier wasn't using ancient CART cars, they were 1 year old. And designed at a time when Cicale said they were doing the best job in the world on safety.


The attenuators did show up, but Cicale and a few other engineers knew they should have been there from the word go, and I think THAT is where his complaint had merit.

Could be that some engineers wanted them there from the get-go. But I think there were probably plenty of engineers who didn't think they would be needed. Do you honestly think that the people in the IRL, the designers of the original Dallaras and G-Forces, team members, and drivers all had so little regard for safety that they just "forgot" about the attenuators or something?


AS for his whining about Tony George, the proof is what it is. He ripped apart the sport to "Save" it from itself and we have now a weaker, less competitive version of what he railed against. It is an old tired argument and not productive to where we have to go, but it is a valid statment. The results don't lie on that score.

You're right the proof is what it is. The "superior" CART/Champcar are no longer around, and the "inferior" IRL is. So what, it is what it is. It's a fight that's been fought over and over, and it's getting old.


I think it was an article appropriate 3 years ago, not now. WE need new ideas, and less rehashing. At some point, the hatchet has to be buried some place else than Tony George's back, even if it gives some comfort to a few bitter die hards.

Exaclty my point. Articles like this do NOTHING for the sport.

[chuck34]

Come on Chuck. every veteran, be their sport/job football, serving in time of war, sailing, duck hunting or motosports will remember the past and wonder if they did their best, did they contribute, could they have done better, etc. They will also feel as though they made their passion or the world a better place to be.

I'd invite you to go sit in the bar of an American Legion Post some evening to get a taste of remembering the old days. Even better sit with your grand father some day and have him talk about his past. I bet he says something like "those were the good old days".

I would love to sit with old vets, and have. But do it in private. Doing it in public does no one any good.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Chuck, if you think the IRL cared all that much about safety, just remember that the attenuators were not added until a few guys backed into walls.

As for the IRL being inferior, I didn't say that at all. They won the war by being smart and patient and spending gobs of IMS cash, which is why Tony is the black sheep as far as his sisters are concerned.

It is over, and it is done, but Cicale has the right to feel bitter, and Kirby has the right to post it, just it is counterproductive to where we are now.

[chuck34]

Chuck, if you think the IRL cared all that much about safety, just remember that the attenuators were not added until a few guys backed into walls.

As for the IRL being inferior, I didn't say that at all. They won the war by being smart and patient and spending gobs of IMS cash, which is why Tony is the black sheep as far as his sisters are concerned.

It is over, and it is done, but Cicale has the right to feel bitter, and Kirby has the right to post it, just it is counterproductive to where we are now.

So by your logic then the CART guys also didn't care about safety either, look how many guys smashed up their feet before they did anything about it. I don't know the exact numbers, but I would venture to say that just as many CART guys are out there with messed up feet as there are IRL guys with messed up backs. Cicale went on and on about how bad the crashes of Mears and Daily were, and how bad their feet were. That was in like 82 or 83 right? Am I the only one here that remembers the '93 500? How man feet injuries were there in that one race? And that was 11 years later. Yep Cicale and the CART guys did a WAY better job than the IRL guys. Give me a break.

Come on Mark, take off your "everything was great with CART" glasses and at least acknowledge there were at least as many issues there as in the IRL.

As for your last point, we are in total agreement, these type of articles are counterproductive to where we are now.

Now don't get me wrong here, as an engineer, I totally respect and admire what Tony Cicale has done for the sport. But I am irked by the "cranky old man" thing he's pulling in this article.

[Easy Drifter]

For a perspective on safety in all forms of racing and the fights to improve things read Dr. Steve Olvey's book 'Rapid Response'.

[Phoenixent]

So by your logic then the CART guys also didn't care about safety either, look how many guys smashed up their feet before they did anything about it. I don't know the exact numbers, but I would venture to say that just as many CART guys are out there with messed up feet as there are IRL guys with messed up backs. Cicale went on and on about how bad the crashes of Mears and Daily were, and how bad their feet were. That was in like 82 or 83 right? Am I the only one here that remembers the '93 500? How man feet injuries were there in that one race? And that was 11 years later. Yep Cicale and the CART guys did a WAY better job than the IRL guys. Give me a break.

Mears crash was in 1984 at Sanair and his injuries were caused by a poor track design using Armco barriers to separate the pits form the track. His car penetrated the barrier ripping the front end of the car off. It is not something you see all the time just a freak accident. The cars back then were built like aircraft the same way they built them in the 60's with aluminum structure. As time on went the cars changed and became safer.

The broken backs in the early days of the IRL is the fault of the chassis manufacture in my opinion. The IRL mandated the use of one type of gear box and knowing that the manufacturers could have tested their chassis with that gearbox in place. As for Tracy's back injury in the DP01 I read it was the result of the belt located in the wrong position. That was corrected on all of the cars and no other issues for the one year the DP01 was used. The Dallara has also had issues with causing broken backs on drivers but so has the Lola, Reynard and Penske chassis of the golden era. Cicale has forgotten about those I guess.

Injuries will continue to happen as long as a human is behind the wheel of the car at speeds over 1 mph.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Hell Chuck, I give up..lol..you and I see the apple differently, but we both agree it is an apple and it needs polishing. I know the CART cars were dangerous as all get out in the 80's, heck so was any OW car of that era. F1 was lucky to not lose more guys. I think Cicale was in on some of the changes that beefed up the cockpits and that is where his crankiness is coming from.

Kirby Is a CART loyalist at heart, so I am not surprised he found Cicale and dug up some old wounds....he has been doing this for a while....

[chuck34]

Mears crash was in 1984 at Sanair and his injuries were caused by a poor track design using Armco barriers to separate the pits form the track. His car penetrated the barrier ripping the front end of the car off. It is not something you see all the time just a freak accident. The cars back then were built like aircraft the same way they built them in the 60's with aluminum structure. As time on went the cars changed and became safer.

So as time went on the CART cars changed. So did the IRL cars. So does every race car out there.


The broken backs in the early days of the IRL is the fault of the chassis manufacture in my opinion. The IRL mandated the use of one type of gear box and knowing that the manufacturers could have tested their chassis with that gearbox in place. As for Tracy's back injury in the DP01 I read it was the result of the belt located in the wrong position. That was corrected on all of the cars and no other issues for the one year the DP01 was used. The Dallara has also had issues with causing broken backs on drivers but so has the Lola, Reynard and Penske chassis of the golden era. Cicale has forgotten about those I guess.

So the IRL guys made an inital mistake with their chassis and worked to correct it. The ChampCar guys did the same with the DP01. I'm failing to see how the CART/ChampCar guys are so much better than the IRL guys.


Injuries will continue to happen as long as a human is behind the wheel of the car at speeds over 1 mph.

Yep, humans make mistakes, all we can do is hope to mitigate the consequences.

[chuck34]

Hell Chuck, I give up..lol..you and I see the apple differently, but we both agree it is an apple and it needs polishing. I know the CART cars were dangerous as all get out in the 80's, heck so was any OW car of that era. F1 was lucky to not lose more guys. I think Cicale was in on some of the changes that beefed up the cockpits and that is where his crankiness is coming from.

Kirby Is a CART loyalist at heart, so I am not surprised he found Cicale and dug up some old wounds....he has been doing this for a while....

THIS apple needs polishing, that is for sure. But pointing out how you think that other apple is shinier doesn't help THIS apple.

[Blancvino]

I think it's time to shut this thread down.

It has morphed into another IRL vs. CART/Champcar (Hatfield's and the McCoy's) p i s s i n g match. I admit, I am guilty of taking the bait and running with it too.

I don't think the hard feelings regarding the split will every really be mended.

[chuck34]

I think it's time to shut this thread down.

It has morphed into another IRL vs. CART/Champcar (Hatfield's and the McCoy's) p i s s i n g match. I admit, I am guilty of taking the bait and running with it too.

I don't think the hard feelings regarding the split will every really be mended.

Morphed? Did you read the article? It STARTED as an IRL sucks, CART was great thread.