Shooting rampage in Espoo, F-I-N-L-A-N-D.

[gloomyDAY]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8435857.stm

Explain this one to me Finns.

I guess gun-wielding maniacs aren't unique to America.

[Easy Drifter]

Nor to any country.

[Camelopard]

Yes it is sad, another person with what appears to be mental health issues and a grudge, with easy access to weapons destroys more innocent lives.


Condolences to all the victims families. RIP.

[Langdale Forest]

Yet another Tapio shootout.

[Daniel]

Just fyi this guy wan't even Finnish

[DexDexter]

This was a sick jealous individual who targeted his ex-girlfriend and a couple of her selected workmates. An Albanian from Kosovo. At first I thought this was yet another random school shooting-type massacre but that wasn't the case. Very sad day though. I visit the shopping center quite often, fortunately not yesterday.


Yet another Tapio shootout.

Tapio? A regular Finnish first name, what's that got to do with anything?

[Tomi]

At first I thought this was yet another random school shooting-type massacre but that wasn't the case. Very sad day though.

Same here, this tragedy hopefully will make sure the coming new gun law, wont be a watered one.

[Langdale Forest]

Just fyi this guy wan't even Finnish

Where is he from then?

[Daniel]

Where is he from then?
Read the original article?

[ShiftingGears]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8435857.stm

Explain this one to me Finns.

I guess gun-wielding maniacs aren't unique to America.

Are you trying to pointscore here? I get the impression you are, which is rather tasteless.

Anyone deranged enough with access to such a weapon can commit this crime, anywhere.

Condolences to family and friends of those killed.

[Langdale Forest]

I agree, when someting like this happens, we always blame it on Finland or the USA.

[Eki]

I agree, when someting like this happens, we always blame it on Finland or the USA.
Or Kosovo. If it's terrorism, we blame Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan, maybe North Korea too. Those are the rules.

[Langdale Forest]

Or prehaps Albania now...

[Tomi]

Or prehaps Albania now...

No point for that, the guy had been living here for long time already, also he was convicted because of weapon crimes before too.

[Eki]

It's quite disgusting how on some Finnish forums some try to use this incident against all immigrants.

[Tomi]

It's quite disgusting how on some Finnish forums some try to use this incident against all immigrants.

what did you expect? this was like a late christmas present for the extreme right wingers, and neo nazis.

[Langdale Forest]

It's quite disgusting how on some Finnish forums some try to use this incident against all immigrants.


You need to be careful with people from all countries, some are more risky than others.

[markabilly]

You need to be careful with people from all countries, some are more risky than others.
Not me, I don't trust anyone from any country

[anthonyvop]

with easy access to weapons destroys more innocent lives.

Explain Switzerland then....

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/754.html

[Langdale Forest]

Not me, I don't trust anyone from any country


do you trust Yourself?

[DexDexter]

It's quite disgusting how on some Finnish forums some try to use this incident against all immigrants.

They're just angry which is totally understandable. It'll quiet down pretty soon, no need to worry about that.

[Camelopard]

Explain Switzerland then....

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/754.html


What do I have to explain? Don't you know that Switzerland is a country in Europe?

You really should stop playing with your "blackerry" and use boogle more, then you wouldn't be spending all your time asking stupid and inane questions!

[Langdale Forest]

What do I have to explain? Don't you know that Switzerland is a country in Europe?

You really should stop playing with your "blackerry" and use boogle more, then you wouldn't be spending all your time asking stupid and inane questions!

It's google and not boogle.

[Eki]

Explain Switzerland then....

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/754.html

Here's something to proof how tougher gun laws could help:

He had a previous conviction for causing bodily harm and had twice been fined for illegal possession of a handgun, in 2003 and 2007, according to YLE.

If they had given him 6 years in prison in 2007 instead of fines for illegal posession of a handgun, he would have been in prison and not in the shopping center.

[anthonyvop]

What do I have to explain? Don't you know that Switzerland is a country in Europe?

You really should stop playing with your "blackerry" and use boogle more, then you wouldn't be spending all your time asking stupid and inane questions!
WOW! You just don't get it do you?

Let me explain it to you in very simple terms.

YOU claimed that one of the reasons is easy access to firearms.

I pointed out that Switzerland(one of the safest countries in the world) requires that every able-bodied male have an Assault Rifle in their home.

Now explain how you believe how easy access to firearms causes violence and yet Switzerland is an example how you are wrong.

[Camelopard]

..................I pointed out that Switzerland....


Where did you point that out vop?

[Langdale Forest]

I don't think that there is much point in starting an argument over this.

[Camelopard]

I don't think that there is much point in starting an argument over this.


I agree, it is another tragic event which does not need to be made into another mud slinging match. As I said earlier, condolences to the families of the innocent victims.


Just as an aside go to boogle.com. This is what it just brought up for me:

"The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four Americans is suffering from some form of mental illness. Think of your three best friends. If they're okay, then it's you." Rita May Brown.

[Eki]

It's google and not boogle.
Or bugle.

[Hondo]

Here's something to proof how tougher gun laws could help:

He had a previous conviction for causing bodily harm and had twice been fined for illegal possession of a handgun, in 2003 and 2007, according to YLE.

If they had given him 6 years in prison in 2007 instead of fines for illegal posession of a handgun, he would have been in prison and not in the shopping center.

Looks to me like you already had an adequate, tough gun law in place but the court chose not to enforce it to the maximum. For most countries, adequate laws are on the books but the courts don't use the full range of punishment available.

I would suggest that anyone who believes that restricting the tool of the crime as opposed to the cause of the crime i.e., the variences of human nature, will keep them safe and secure from all things all the time, get themselves sentenced to prison.

You will all be equal under the law and prison rules. You will be fed, have healthcare, and have living quarters provided for you. You will be able to take part in recreational and educational programs at no cost to you.

You will still not be safe. Just as on the outside, the guards can't be everywhere, watching everything, all the time. Sooner or later in this Mecca of protection, someone may decide to jump all over you and choke, strangle, beat, stab, and stomp the life, or most of it, out of you. Both of you will get more time added to your sentences. Since both of you are already in prison, incidents like that are virtually unpunishable.

Your next safe step would be to stay in solitary confinement 23 hours a day. One hour outside for exercise under the watch of one guard. All meals in your cell, no other human contact.

Do you really want to live that way?

[Eki]

Looks to me like you already had an adequate, tough gun law in place but the court chose not to enforce it to the maximum. For most countries, adequate laws are on the books but the courts don't use the full range of punishment available.


No, fines are the maximum penalty for just possessing an unlicensed handgun here. I just checked.

[Hondo]

No, fines are the maximum penalty for just possessing an unlicensed handgun here. I just checked.

Where did the 6 years come from? Just a mistake?

[Eki]

Where did the 6 years come from? Just a mistake?

From me. I figured that if he had gotten 6 years in 2007 he'd still be in prison even if he had been released for good behavior after serving half of the sentence.

[Hondo]

Ok, so his hard time came from the other charges. I get it.

[markabilly]

do you trust Yourself?
depends on how pretty and willing she is......

[Eki]

Ok, so his hard time came from the other charges. I get it.
No, from making a tougher law as I suggested. Pre-emption you know. Owning a gun is the first step towards a shooting-rampage. Punishing for the shooting-rampage is too late. Hey, I'm starting to sound like George W Bush!

[markabilly]

WOW! You just don't get it do you?

Let me explain it to you in very simple terms.

YOU claimed that one of the reasons is easy access to firearms.

I pointed out that Switzerland(one of the safest countries in the world) requires that every able-bodied male have an Assault Rifle in their home.

Now explain how you believe how easy access to firearms causes violence and yet Switzerland is an example how you are wrong.
and finland is as well, as many there do possess such weapons, but crime is actually very low........the whole argument about guns cause crime has always been fallacious


might as well argue that women cause rape (some women might say it is that which does they thinking for the big head.....)

what causes most crime, is repeat offenders--if they had been properly and thouroghly punished the first time, there would not have been a second time.
Or better, if they had been properly taught respect for others, there would be no problems

[Hondo]

Maybe you should make murder illegal, or if it already is, get tougher murder laws. That ought to stop it.

Quite frankly, if I were to lose it and go rampaging, I could probaly get more than 6 just using a Klein 601-8 screwdriver.

[markabilly]

Maybe you should make murder illegal, or if it already is, get tougher murder laws. That ought to stop it.
.
and take all the fun out of it???

[Eki]

Maybe you should make murder illegal, or if it already is, get tougher murder laws. That ought to stop it.

Quite frankly, if I were to lose it and go rampaging, I could probaly get more than 6 just using a Klein 601-8 screwdriver.
Exactly. But just after the rampage when it's too late. You can't prevent a murder after it has happened. However, the difference is that there are other uses for a screwdriver, the only use for a handgun is shooting and nobody needs an unlicensed one.

[Langdale Forest]

Don't go on the rampage!

[Hondo]

That's one problem with out-sourcing your murderers. Sure they can do the jobs cheaper, but you get so much riff-raff.

[Langdale Forest]

riff raff can be boring

[gloomyDAY]

Just fyi this guy wan't even FinnishNo, really?

I think you're missing the point Dan.

[Daniel]

No, really?

I think you're missing the point Dan.
Which is? Hahahah Eki comes from Finland and detests gun crime and someone in Finland committed a mass murder with a gun. Yay! :rolleyes:

[Easy Drifter]

I fight with Eki all the time.
I do not care how stringent or free gun controls are these things happen in every country.
The nationality or former nationality of the shooter is immaterial.
I do not think there is any possible way to totally prevent them.
People with mental issues will always go undetected or slip through the cracks.
If someone is determined to get a gun they will do so. It might be more difficult with tough gun laws but it is always possible.
Quite a few years ago I regularly drank in a bar in downtown Toronto that was the hangout for the Cdn. Press crowd. I could have aquired an illegal handgun within 12 hours mostly through some of them.
I no longer have contacts up here but I still know how to find contacts to get an illegal gun. Might take me a day or two but I could still find one. With my arthritic hands I might now have trouble hitting what I wanted though!
The only thing I ask of Eki is that he does not jump all over the next inevitable shooting in the US or Canada.

[Garry Walker]

If someone is determined to get a gun they will do so. It might be more difficult with tough gun laws but it is always possible.
Quite a few years ago I regularly drank in a bar in downtown Toronto that was the hangout for the Cdn. Press crowd. I could have aquired an illegal handgun within 12 hours mostly through some of them.
I no longer have contacts up here but I still know how to find contacts to get an illegal gun. Might take me a day or two but I could still find one. With my arthritic hands I might now have trouble hitting what I wanted though!
.

Indeed. I have my own guns and I wouldnt need an illegal one, but I could get one within a day at max if I needed it. It is not hard at all.


As for this case, Finland should have deported this ages ago.

[DexDexter]

Indeed. I have my own guns and I wouldnt need an illegal one, but I could get one within a day at max if I needed it. It is not hard at all.


As for this case, Finland should have deported this ages ago.

Well, contrary to what people might believe these days, getting guns over here is not particularly easy, I mean I have absolutely no idea where I could get a gun in one day. We've got a lot of guns over here but the vast majority of them are hunting weapons.


No, really?

I think you're missing the point Dan.

Your point is worthless. Crimes happen in every country as long as there are people on earth. Murder rates:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

[DexDexter]

No, really?

I think you're missing the point Dan.

Your point is worthless. Crimes happen in every country as long as there are people on earth. Murder rates:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

[Eki]

People with mental issues will always go undetected or slip through the cracks.
True. But this one had been caught for causing bodily harm, twice caught for unlicensed weapons, had a restraining order on the woman he killed and had previously threatened to kill her. I don't think he went undetected, may even claim that you could see it coming, but it was more like nobody could do anything to him before it happened. You can get long prison sentences for drug smuggling, but you only get fined for an unlicensed handgun, I don't understand why.

[Daniel]

Indeed. I have my own guns and I wouldnt need an illegal one, but I could get one within a day at max if I needed it. It is not hard at all.


As for this case, Finland should have deported this ages ago.

The point is that for instance if you wanted to go out and kill some people you've got a gun readily available whereas someone like myself would have to find one illegally which isn't the easiest thing here in the UK. But we're flogging a dead horse here......

[Langdale Forest]

I guess a finn shot the horse. :uhoh:

[Mark in Oshawa]

Same here, this tragedy hopefully will make sure the coming new gun law, wont be a watered one.

Tomi, did it every occur to you that anyone willing to kill people isn't going to be scared off by some gun legislation designed to keep guns away from everyone? Guns are available in every Western society, illegally or legally matters little. If some warped mind wants to kill with a gun, he will find one...

[Mark in Oshawa]

True. But this one had been caught for causing bodily harm, twice caught for unlicensed weapons, had a restraining order on the woman he killed and had previously threatened to kill her. I don't think he went undetected, may even claim that you could see it coming, but it was more like nobody could do anything to him before it happened. You can get long prison sentences for drug smuggling, but you only get fined for an unlicensed handgun, I don't understand why.

They should have a stiffer penalty Eki but having an unlicensed gun can be an error of omission or have no nefarious purpose to it. Owning a gun isn't a crime, using a gun against another human being outside the law is the crime. Just as driving without a license sticker for your car is a fine, motor manslaughter is a crime. Gun's are a possession and property. They should be regulated but NOT seen as criminal just by their existence.

[Daniel]

Tomi, did it every occur to you that anyone willing to kill people isn't going to be scared off by some gun legislation designed to keep guns away from everyone? Guns are available in every Western society, illegally or legally matters little. If some warped mind wants to kill with a gun, he will find one...
Quick question for you.

There are two identical Mark in Oshawa's one in the US where it's fairly easy to get a gun and one in Australia where it's pretty darn hard.

They both get back from a hard days work a couple of hours early and find the wife in bed with the next door neighbour. Which wife and next door neighbour are more likely to get shot and killed in a moment of rage which you later regret?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Quick question for you.

There are two identical Mark in Oshawa's one in the US where it's fairly easy to get a gun and one in Australia where it's pretty darn hard.

They both get back from a hard days work a couple of hours early and find the wife in bed with the next door neighbour. Which wife and next door neighbour are more likely to get shot and killed in a moment of rage which you later regret?

The AMerican will use the Gun, the Aussie will plant the axe he has in the shed right in the middle of their skulls. Result is still the same.

[Drew]

Crazy people + guns = trouble.

No matter whether they're American, Finnish, Muslim, Christian, white, black, gay or straight.

[Daniel]

The AMerican will use the Gun, the Aussie will plant the axe he has in the shed right in the middle of their skulls. Result is still the same.
Incorrect. American Mark shoots his victims dead on the spot, Australian Mark pursues his victims out into the street and is later cornered and shot and killed by a trigger happy Victorian Police officer.

[Daniel]

Crazy people + guns = trouble.

No matter whether they're American, Finnish, Muslim, Christian, white, black, gay or straight.
Exactly and it doesn't take much to turn a sane person crazy for long enough for them to do some damage with a gun.

[Eki]

The AMerican will use the Gun, the Aussie will plant the axe he has in the shed right in the middle of their skulls. Result is still the same.
Actually, I'd imagine it would be much harder to kill 6 people with an axe than with a gun. I mean what was the point in inventing a gun if it wasn't?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Quick question for you.

There are two identical Mark in Oshawa's one in the US where it's fairly easy to get a gun and one in Australia where it's pretty darn hard.

They both get back from a hard days work a couple of hours early and find the wife in bed with the next door neighbour. Which wife and next door neighbour are more likely to get shot and killed in a moment of rage which you later regret?

Furthermore, since when should those who like guns, own guns or use them for sport have to have their lives filled with red tape to make some bureaucrat happy? Very few responsbile gun owners use their weapons to commit crimes. If they do, the law saying you cant own a gun isn't going to stop him if he is mad enough or committed enough.

It is funny, we are all for the right to dissent, to have free speech, and to have property rights except with guns. Guns are not the problem, the humans wielding them are. I am not talking about legalized UZI's or having a howitzer, I am talking sporting weapons and some pistols. I am not saying their shouldn't be some checks and balances either, but some whack job kills his girlfriend and it is somehow for all of society to sacrifice a freedom because someone who was operating out side the law anyhow...

[Eki]

Guns are not the problem, the humans wielding them are.
Drugs are not the problem either, the humans using them are. Somehow drugs are not legally sold for recreational purposes. Do you think people should be free to do anything they want, f**k the other people?

[Tomi]

Tomi, did it every occur to you that anyone willing to kill people isn't going to be scared off by some gun legislation designed to keep guns away from everyone? Guns are available in every Western society, illegally or legally matters little. If some warped mind wants to kill with a gun, he will find one...

I dont think a gun law would have helped in this case, but in many other it would have, here is not so easy to get an illegal gun, like many already has pointed out, also i belive that most shootings are not planned in advance but done in sudden rage.

[Hondo]

Actually, I'd imagine it would be much harder to kill 6 people with an axe than with a gun. I mean what was the point in inventing a gun if it wasn't?

Pretty much exactly that. They allow a smaller, weaker person the means of self protection against a larger, stronger opponent(s).

[Mark in Oshawa]

Drugs are not the problem either, the humans using them are. Somehow drugs are not legally sold for recreational purposes. Do you think people should be free to do anything they want, f**k the other people?

THere is no SAFE use for most drugs. Guns are used in gun clubs and by many very safely. Freedom means doing what you want to do unless you screw with someone else's rights. My owning a gun shouldn't be a threat to society unless I am psychotic or threatening someone. Shooting targets in a range doesn't hurt anyone. THAT is the point.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I dont think a gun law would have helped in this case, but in many other it would have, here is not so easy to get an illegal gun, like many already has pointed out, also i belive that most shootings are not planned in advance but done in sudden rage.

THey are usually done with a rage, but if you have gun laws on the books restricting weapons, then society has done enough to stop easy access to a weapon, yet this guy still went on his rampage. Adding new laws wont prevent this happening again. Just like having no legal ownership of handguns in the UK doesn't stop people from being shot by handguns....

[Tomi]

THey are usually done with a rage, but if you have gun laws on the books restricting weapons, then society has done enough to stop easy access to a weapon, yet this guy still went on his rampage. Adding new laws wont prevent this happening again. Just like having no legal ownership of handguns in the UK doesn't stop people from being shot by handguns....

Offcourse not in every case, but in many a strict law would help, i belive here only a few are against a strict law also.
Me my self when i was a 8-12 years old i did shoot a lot with allkind of weapons from 22 cal revolver to 9mm parabellum, and whatever, but never have had anykind of pervert relationship to own guns, also i have been to many different places many propably consider as dangerous, but never felt that i need a gun for protection.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Offcourse not in every case, but in many a strict law would help, i belive here only a few are against a strict law also.
Me my self when i was a 8-12 years old i did shoot a lot with allkind of weapons from 22 cal revolver to 9mm parabellum, and whatever, but never have had anykind of pervert relationship to own guns, also i have been to many different places many propably consider as dangerous, but never felt that i need a gun for protection.
The point is Tomi, you had access to thos guns, you used them responsibilly, and are none the worse for wear. If we took away any property that could kill, we wouldn't own car, have kitchen knifes and would be monitored 24 hours a day to make sure we didn't ingest any drugs. AT some point in a free society, we trade off the concept of total safety to be free. I may not get access to guns in jail, but I wouldn't be free now would I?

[Tomi]

The point is Tomi, you had access to thos guns, you used them responsibilly, and are none the worse for wear. If we took away any property that could kill, we wouldn't own car, have kitchen knifes and would be monitored 24 hours a day to make sure we didn't ingest any drugs. AT some point in a free society, we trade off the concept of total safety to be free. I may not get access to guns in jail, but I wouldn't be free now would I?

The point is not to take away the guns, but to see that they are used on proper places, shooting tracs and so on, not kept in homes, nobody need a hand gun in their home, atleast not here.

[janvanvurpa]

The AMerican will use the Gun, the Aussie will plant the axe he has in the shed right in the middle of their skulls. Result is still the same.
Actually the naughty Ozzie will only get the ax in his skull if the angry Ozzie Fred is within a couple of feet of him, and if he's motivated by oh say FRIGHT of being in the sack with Fred's wife Sheila then there's a good chance he can outrun Fred who is old and fat---which is why Sheila was in the sack with him in the first place.
Fred might calm down in the course of chasing the Naughty Oz.

I common 9mm round has a velocity of 305-435 m/s or 1000-1430 ft/sec and it doubtful that the naughty Oz can outrun that no matter how motivated and full of adrenaline he is.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Actually the naughty Ozzie will only get the ax in his skull if the angry Ozzie Fred is within a couple of feet of him, and if he's motivated by oh say FRIGHT of being in the sack with Fred's wife Sheila then there's a good chance he can outrun Fred who is old and fat---which is why Sheila was in the sack with him in the first place.
Fred might calm down in the course of chasing the Naughty Oz.

I common 9mm round has a velocity of 305-435 m/s or 1000-1430 ft/sec and it doubtful that the naughty Oz can outrun that no matter how motivated and full of adrenaline he is.

True. Still don't see why Bob in Perth cant own a rifle or a sporting .22 pistol to shoot on a range. Fred is pissed at his wife and Ozzie, THAT isn't changing. it has nothing do with Bob. As for Fred he could quietly knife his wife in her sleep too.....so should we ban butcher blocks?

[Mark in Oshawa]

The point is not to take away the guns, but to see that they are used on proper places, shooting tracs and so on, not kept in homes, nobody need a hand gun in their home, atleast not here.

The Swiss have submachine guns in every home for the militia, which every male has a committment to. THey don't misuse them. It isn't guns that are the issue, it is society and how people abuse them that is the issue. Owning a gun doesn't make you a bad person.

I am not advocating for no laws, no background checks, or no checks and balances in gun ownership; but I really get tired of knee jerk reactions and laws to situations like this.

[Tomi]

The Swiss have submachine guns in every home for the militia, which every male has a committment to. THey don't misuse them. It isn't guns that are the issue, it is society and how people abuse them that is the issue. Owning a gun doesn't make you a bad person.

I am not advocating for no laws, no background checks, or no checks and balances in gun ownership; but I really get tired of knee jerk reactions and laws to situations like this.

Thats the Swiss, they can have what they want, same goes for Canadians and people from US, they can buy automatic weapons to their kids when they start the scool if they want, i dont mind at all.

[Drew]

The Swiss have submachine guns in every home for the militia, which every male has a committment to. THey don't misuse them. It isn't guns that are the issue, it is society and how people abuse them that is the issue. Owning a gun doesn't make you a bad person.
.

You think this kind of thing doesn't happen in Switzerland? Of course it does, it just doesn't get reported outside of Switzerland.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4755143.stm

[Mark in Oshawa]

You think this kind of thing doesn't happen in Switzerland? Of course it does, it just doesn't get reported outside of Switzerland.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4755143.stm

I am sure if some suicidal fellow with an axe to grind takes his automatic weapon out of his closet in Geneva and goes downtown and shoots up the market, it will make the news. Last I looked, there was no censorship of the press in Switzerland.

[Mark in Oshawa]

You think this kind of thing doesn't happen in Switzerland? Of course it does, it just doesn't get reported outside of Switzerland.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4755143.stm

That said, what the BBC isn't reporting in this story is the actual number of murder's per 1000. I do realize that having a gun within easy access will allow more murders of passion, but again, this idea that all of society should have to have less freedom to own a gun without hassle or have no guns because of the actions of a few is a delicate line. The Swiss have more firepower within their house than most Americans, yet the US has a higher murder rate. Society and how it deals with stress, strife and psychlogical issues is where the focus ought to be, not on a knee jerk ban on guns, which of course does nothing to fix the actual humans committing the horrible crimes.

[Drew]

I am sure if some suicidal fellow with an axe to grind takes his automatic weapon out of his closet in Geneva and goes downtown and shoots up the market, it will make the news. Last I looked, there was no censorship of the press in Switzerland.

It's not the Swiss press that's the problem, it's the rest of the world's press that is the problem. On the BBC news site American news is clearly more pressing than that of other countries, for example I read that some right wing radio presenter in America was taken to hospital. I'd never heard of him before (and don't remember his name) and I doubt we even get his show, so why the hell is that more important to me than something more serious happening in a different country?

These things happen everywhere, it just depends on what newspaper, radio show, tv show or website you pay attention to.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It's not the Swiss press that's the problem, it's the rest of the world's press that is the problem. On the BBC news site American news is clearly more pressing than that of other countries, for example I read that some right wing radio presenter in America was taken to hospital. I'd never heard of him before (and don't remember his name) and I doubt we even get his show, so why the hell is that more important to me than something more serious happening in a different country?

These things happen everywhere, it just depends on what newspaper, radio show, tv show or website you pay attention to.

I wish I knew which Talk show host that was....I haven't been as exposed to it. I will say this. If the British Press is wasting their time covering what is going on in the US, that isn't the fault of the Americans....

[Eki]

Pretty much exactly that. They allow a smaller, weaker person the means of self protection against a larger, stronger opponent(s).

What are the odds that a smaller, weaker person has to kill 6 or more larger, stronger opponents in self defense (except maybe in a war)? Reminded me of the case where New York City policemen shot over 40 times an unarmed immigrant, just in case he had a gun and wasn't dead yet. If the police can't use their guns properly, how can you expect that ordinary citizens can?

I'm glad that the highest police officer in Finland has common sense. Yesterday he said that under no circumstances will shopping mall guards be allowed a firearm in the future either. Many of the shopping mall guards here are young no-brain body builders, who'd probably do more harm than good with a firearm.

[Easy Drifter]

Certainly the case here.
No matter what you will get a few idiots with guns.
I handled guns most of my life and have huge respect for them.
I also treat every gun as loaded until I personally check it.

[Eki]

THere is no SAFE use for most drugs. Guns are used in gun clubs and by many very safely. Freedom means doing what you want to do unless you screw with someone else's rights. My owning a gun shouldn't be a threat to society unless I am psychotic or threatening someone. Shooting targets in a range doesn't hurt anyone. THAT is the point.
There is NO LEGITIMITE use for any ILLEGAL weapons. They are not used in gun clubs, because eligible persons can get a LEGAL weapon for that purpose. I'd say the maximum penalty for posession of illegal weapons could be up to half of the maximum penalty of a murder. Punishing for a murder means that somebody is already dead, punishing for an illegal weapon can save somebody from being killed.

The shopping mall shooter had four cases of causing bodily harm, two cases of possesing an unlicensed gun plus traffic violations in his criminal history. Because of those, he was denided the Finnish citizenship, but they weren't severe enough to deport him from Finland. Apparently you can deport someone only if his crimes have been serious enough.

[Tomi]

he was denided the Finnish citizenship, but they weren't severe enough to deport him from Finland. Apparently you can deport someone only if his crimes have been serious enough.

Here, if someone commit a crime he gets minimum 1 year jail he can be deported.

[Mark in Oshawa]

There is NO LEGITIMITE use for any ILLEGAL weapons. They are not used in gun clubs, because eligible persons can get a LEGAL weapon for that purpose. I'd say the maximum penalty for posession of illegal weapons could be up to half of the maximum penalty of a murder. Punishing for a murder means that somebody is already dead, punishing for an illegal weapon can save somebody from being killed.

The shopping mall shooter had four cases of causing bodily harm, two cases of possesing an unlicensed gun plus traffic violations in his criminal history. Because of those, he was denided the Finnish citizenship, but they weren't severe enough to deport him from Finland. Apparently you can deport someone only if his crimes have been serious enough.

Eki, I am not advocating people own guns with no rules. I am not in favour of illegal weapons. What I am advocating is responsbile gun ownership. Licensing of arms. The US Constitution defines gun ownership as a right. Since I am not sure that is a great idea, I am not saying Finland should have that right. I don't have it here in Canada. I can however own a gun. I can take courses, apply for a license and use a gun, the same way I own and drive a car. THAT is balancing the rights of society vs the right of the individual.

This idiot in the shopping mall was going to do something and making more laws hurting legal gun ownership was not going to stop him. Show me a democratic, free society, and I will show you one with illegal weapons. Gun bans and efforts to eradicate legal gun ownership just ensure the nuts and criminals are the only ones armed. Not my idea of a balance between the right of the individual and the right of society at all.

[Mark in Oshawa]

From the sounds of it, a few politicians in Finland are going to make this a gun issue when it is clear this mutt should have been deported or in jail before he did something....in Canada we call that covering one's @ss.....

[Eki]

This idiot in the shopping mall was going to do something and making more laws hurting legal gun ownership was not going to stop him. Show me a democratic, free society, and I will show you one with illegal weapons. Gun bans and efforts to eradicate legal gun ownership just ensure the nuts and criminals are the only ones armed. Not my idea of a balance between the right of the individual and the right of society at all.
Yes, but if you lock them up for say 5 to 10 years instead of mere fines, you can at least keep them from the streets that time and get a right to deport them if they are foreigners. Plus 5 to 10 years in prison might deter more people from aquiring an illegal weapon than fines do.

[Eki]

From the sounds of it, a few politicians in Finland are going to make this a gun issue when it is clear this mutt should have been deported or in jail before he did something....
It's not covering ones @ss. Like I said, the current gun laws didn't allow them to jail him or deport him. What would have helped in this case is a longer than one year prison sentence for having an unlicensed gun, while the current law only allows fines for that "misdemeanor". The police knew he was potentially dangerous, but what do you do, the law is the law, they couldn't lock him up or deport him. What we need are tougher gun laws.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It's not covering ones @ss. Like I said, the current gun laws didn't allow them to jail him or deport him. What would have helped in this case is a longer than one year prison sentence for having an unlicensed gun, while the current law only allows fines for that "misdemeanor". The police knew he was potentially dangerous, but what do you do, the law is the law, they couldn't lock him up or deport him. What we need are tougher gun laws.

For an illegal gun, he should be in jail or deported I agree. I just keep hearing tho from Tomi there ought to be a law. Since I am not a Finn I wasn't sure on what the exact laws were. That said, if the politicians come back with some all inclusive gun registry and make anyone who owns a gun a criminal until they prove otherwise, and don't change the laws for using a gun in an illegal manner, than they have punished everyone without solving the problem.

The Libreal government of Jean Chretien did that in Canada when they brought in the national Gun registry for all weapons, including shotguns and hunting rifles in response to the Denis Lortie and Marc Lepine incidents in Quebec. Both were sick, twisted men, one who broke into the Quebec Assembly and shot up the place with one dead, and the other who went into a classroom in Montreal's Ecole Polytechnique and shot 14 women. Neither weapon was registered and that was seen as the problem. Since the Libreals used these two incidents to create a billion dollar waste of money, we have had many more shootings with unregistarted weapons. Putting all the guns in a data base is useless. Real policing, real consequences for crimes and a vigiliant and intelligent population stop these tragedies, not useless platitudes.

[Tomi]

For an illegal gun, he should be in jail or deported I agree. I just keep hearing tho from Tomi there ought to be a law. Since I am not a Finn I wasn't sure on what the exact laws were. That said, if the politicians come back with some all inclusive gun registry and make anyone who owns a gun a criminal until they prove otherwise, and don't change the laws for using a gun in an illegal manner, than they have punished everyone without solving the problem.

The Libreal government of Jean Chretien did that in Canada when they brought in the national Gun registry for all weapons, including shotguns and hunting rifles in response to the Denis Lortie and Marc Lepine incidents in Quebec. Both were sick, twisted men, one who broke into the Quebec Assembly and shot up the place with one dead, and the other who went into a classroom in Montreal's Ecole Polytechnique and shot 14 women. Neither weapon was registered and that was seen as the problem. Since the Libreals used these two incidents to create a billion dollar waste of money, we have had many more shootings with unregistarted weapons. Putting all the guns in a data base is useless. Real policing, real consequences for crimes and a vigiliant and intelligent population stop these tragedies, not useless platitudes.

We have a register for legal guns offcourse, else its impossible to track from where the illegal weapons are if they are in the register. The current gun law is just too weak, in I belive most of our citizens mind.

[janvanvurpa]

You think this kind of thing doesn't happen in Switzerland? Of course it does, it just doesn't get reported outside of Switzerland.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4755143.stm

Thanks Drew, but since there are ignorates who are only capable of repeating what other ignorants TELL them, it seems we should help them with their misapprehension of how the world actually is by quoting the text a bit:

Domestic killings shock Swiss
By Imogen Foulkes
BBC News, Geneva

Corinne Rey-Bellet (centre) with her parents in 1997
Rey-Bellet was a star in Switzerland with a wide following
The murder last week of one of Switzerland's most famous skiers has forced the Swiss to look long and hard at a crime that is worryingly common in their society.

Corinne Rey-Bellet was shot by her husband Gerold Stadler just days after the couple had agreed to separate.

Stadler also shot and killed Rey-Bellet's brother Alain, and seriously wounded her mother, before finally killing himself.

The Swiss media tend to call cases like this "family dramas", in which a man kills his wife, often his own children, and himself.

Family slaughter might be a more accurate term - there have been 14 such cases in Switzerland in the last 11 months.

"There is a profile for a man who commits a crime like this," says Philip Jaffe, professor of psychology at Geneva University.

"He tends to be very ambitious, but isolated, very contained, and he can't cope with loss. So if his wife threatens to leave him, his response is violence."

So a population of just under 8 million, less than that of London, New York,
Los Angeles--a place FULL of delusion lunatics of every sort---in this country of quiet, serious Swiss
FOURTEEN TIMES somebody has wiped out their entire family,

Now it should be interesting to see if those dragging out the obviously discredited crap about "the Swiss all have firearms in their homes and nobody ever does anything......." come back and say OOOOpps, well I didn't know!."

Want to make a small bet?

[Mark in Oshawa]

We have a register for legal guns offcourse, else its impossible to track from where the illegal weapons are if they are in the register. The current gun law is just too weak, in I belive most of our citizens mind.

While we had a registry for restricted weapons. Pistols in other words. Had it since the 20's. All the sudden, two idiots shoot up the joint in Quebec about a year or from each other, causing a loss of life in a tragic fashion; and all the sudden we now have a new bureaucratic nightmare consuming billions of dollars to track Horst's long gun he uses to kill gophers on his farm in Saskatchewan, or my dad's duck gun locked in his basement with a trigger lock on it and the ammo upstairs. A BILLION dollars that could put more cops on the street, used to track mentally unstable people who have had run in's with the law. Maybe spent on the court system and prison system to keep known criminals behind bars and giving them real rehabilitation.

I would hate to see Finland follow that sorry tale. Oh yes, the gun registry worked. It has allowed every gun in the country to be either be legal or not legal. Didn't stop a sick twisted kid from killing 4 people at Dawson College in Downtown Montreal 3 summers back. Didn't stop any of the killings in gang wars in Toronto, or the death of a mob family member in Montreal last week.

Laws don't fix crime, smart and able police given the tools to deal with situations fix crime.

[Eki]

While we had a registry for restricted weapons. Pistols in other words. Had it since the 20's. All the sudden, two idiots shoot up the joint in Quebec about a year or from each other, causing a loss of life in a tragic fashion; and all the sudden we now have a new bureaucratic nightmare consuming billions of dollars to track Horst's long gun he uses to kill gophers on his farm in Saskatchewan, or my dad's duck gun locked in his basement with a trigger lock on it and the ammo upstairs. A BILLION dollars that could put more cops on the street, used to track mentally unstable people who have had run in's with the law. Maybe spent on the court system and prison system to keep known criminals behind bars and giving them real rehabilitation.
If Horst really has to shoot gophers (can't see why) or your dad really has to shoot ducks (can't see why), they probably could get legitimate licenses for their guns.




Laws don't fix crime, smart and able police given the tools to deal with situations fix crime.
The police can't break the laws. At least not here in Finland. The laws restrict them the same way as they restrict everyone else.

[anthonyvop]

Laws don't fix crime, smart and able police given the tools to deal with situations fix crime.

The police are great at catching criminals and writing reports. But unless you want a squad of police in every residence, street corner and business the police can do very little to stop some whacko from breaking into your home and killing everyone.

[Langdale Forest]

Why is the thread title F-I-N-L-A-N-D and not Finland?

[Drew]

Why is the thread title F-I-N-L-A-N-D and not Finland?

That's how it's spelt in F-i-n-n-i-s-h

[Langdale Forest]

It's Finnish and not F-i-n-n-i-s-h.

oh noe

[Mark in Oshawa]

The police are great at catching criminals and writing reports. But unless you want a squad of police in every residence, street corner and business the police can do very little to stop some whacko from breaking into your home and killing everyone.

Well there is that argument, and in the US where everyone has access to weapons easily, including the guy coming through the front door, I get that. In my part of the world, or in Finland, I would suggest the headache of getting a pistol is greater than the odds of having someone break in. I have my baseball bat in the closet. No permit required to give someone a kneecapping.

[chuck34]

If Horst really has to shoot gophers (can't see why) or your dad really has to shoot ducks (can't see why), they probably could get legitimate licenses for their guns.



The police can't break the laws. At least not here in Finland. The laws restrict them the same way as they restrict everyone else.

I don't know about "Horst " or Mark's dad for sujre, but I would imagine that they DO have licenses for their guns. Most of the "massacres" that pop into my mind (here in the States at least) all happened with illeagle guns anyway. So those people already broke at least one law, so what's the use of more laws? As much as it pains me to say, I do have to agree with you on one point, if someone is cought with an illegal firearm, the penalty needs to be much stricter.

[Easy Drifter]

Shooting Gophers =stopping damage to crops or worse gopher holes cause livestock broken legs.
Shooting ducks = food.
Most countries including Canada, before the useless long gun registry, had and have adequate laws. Sometimes the penalties are not severe enough or the judges do not impose the severe sentences the law allows.
Our current Conservative Govt. has passed legislation with higher mandatory sentences in the elected House of Commons.
This legislation is either blocked or watered down in our appointed Senate dominated by Liberals. Both have to approve any legislation. The Prime Minister appoints the Senators and we had Liberal Prime Ministers for many years.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't know about "Horst " or Mark's dad for sujre, but I would imagine that they DO have licenses for their guns. Most of the "massacres" that pop into my mind (here in the States at least) all happened with illeagle guns anyway. So those people already broke at least one law, so what's the use of more laws? As much as it pains me to say, I do have to agree with you on one point, if someone is cought with an illegal firearm, the penalty needs to be much stricter.

Chuck...it is the irony of it all. There was no need for the registry. I see why the NRA is as vigiliant as they are, because there is no reasoning with the gun grabber politicians when they refuse to understand a gun is also personal property and has value. It is part of the frontier tradition of both our nations. For the government to confiscate without compensation is criminal. I call it theft.....

[Eki]

Shooting ducks = food.
Frozen ducks in supermarkets = easier food + don't need gun

[chuck34]

Chuck...it is the irony of it all. There was no need for the registry. I see why the NRA is as vigiliant as they are, because there is no reasoning with the gun grabber politicians when they refuse to understand a gun is also personal property and has value. It is part of the frontier tradition of both our nations. For the government to confiscate without compensation is criminal. I call it theft.....

Mark, I can also see the view that there is no need for registries. I'd be fine with that as well. But it's the reality of where we are now. I don't know I sort of go back and forth on the whole gun issue sometimes especially when it comes to registering and what-not. That being said, I am totally against limiting what one can own.

[Easy Drifter]

Ah yes frozen ducks in a supermarket. Raised in cramped pens and force fed to put size on quickly.
And nothing frozen ever has quite the good flavour of fresh.
Besides you miss the chance of biting down on a piece of birdshot!

[Eki]

People carrying guns and breaking into houses is extremely rare here in the UK, hence gun ownership not being necessary for defense reasons. I would imagine that if every man and his wife owned a gun, there would be an added incentive for burglars who can't get guns legally, to break into ones house. The last thing I want at 3am is to wake from a deep sleep and be forced to have a very unpleasant shootout because some gun toting scumbag wants my TV.

I'll take my chances with my cricket bat thanks as most burglars at the moment seem to carry screwdrivers and hammers here...Unless you live in Chelsea of course.. :)
They say that most illegal guns in Finland are stolen ones from burgleries. So more legal guns also means more illegal guns.

[Easy Drifter]

'They say'. Who is 'they'? Any facts to back that statement Eki? Or is it just the nebulous 'They'?

[Eki]

'They say'. Who is 'they'? Any facts to back that statement Eki? Or is it just the nebulous 'They'?
The police on the news.

[Mark in Oshawa]

They say that most illegal guns in Finland are stolen ones from burgleries. So more legal guns also means more illegal guns.

"They" being the law would say this, and that is fine. So if we outlaw ALL the LEGAL guns, do you think the problem is solved? Of course not. People will smuggle guns in. Canadian law is so anal and complete that to buy a gun is almost now a bigger hassle than it is worth. It is the reason bow hunting is now popular. Yet we have no shortage of guns on the streets of our major urban centers. At some point, there is going to be crime. The cops would love us all to never do anything that would involve them actually having to investigate or stop crime. If we all stay home living like inmates in the asylum, their job would be easier. The problem is, we don't. We live in freedom. Freedom to drive to the pub, go hunting, ride motorbikes or drive rally cars or whatever.

At some point, the cops have to grasp that only in a police state would they not have to worry about illegally obtained weapons...and we don't want a police state. The price of freedom isn't easy....sometimes you have to allow people the freedom to be idiots...

[Eki]

American copycat:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,583389,00.html

Why do these things always seem to happen in Virginia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beltway_sniper_attacks

[Mark in Oshawa]

American copycat:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,583389,00.html

Why do these things always seem to happen in Virginia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beltway_sniper_attacks

Gee Eki, talk about going back out of the current news. Why don't you dig up the Civil War why you are at it?

Interesting, psycho's can be anywhere, especially in Lockerbie Scotland where a guy using a banned weapon (pistols are banned in the UK are they not?) to shoot up a kindergarten. I guess people can die where there is gun control too.

As for Virginia Tech, just think if one of those prof's on a "gun"free campus had a pistol handy? You think the death toll would have been less?

Just a thought.