First line of defense in a hijacking/suicide bombers should not be the passengers!!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Found this column in the Toronto Sun. Apparently the head of Homeland Security thinks it is up to the passengers to be the first line of defense. So the security weenies, x ray machines and metal detectors are just for show?

See here:

http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/peter_worthington/2009/12/29/12289681-sun.html

[Hondo]

In a strange way, I disagree. The passengers should be the first line of defense and should be held exempt from any legal or civil liabilities possibly incurred through their efforts. For all the profiles, screening procedures, etc, only the other people on board will know who the bad guy is and when he tips his hand. The liberties and freedoms we do enjoy are not free and did not come to our forefathers for free. There comes a time when putting your own butt on the line is called for and should be welcomed.

[Tomi]

I think its up to the airlines to guarantee the security, if some specific destination causes security problems, they should check those more carefully and add the bill for that in the ticket price, not the way it is today that everyone pay extra.

[Mark in Oshawa]

In a strange way, I disagree. The passengers should be the first line of defense and should be held exempt from any legal or civil liabilities possibly incurred through their efforts. For all the profiles, screening procedures, etc, only the other people on board will know who the bad guy is and when he tips his hand. The liberties and freedoms we do enjoy are not free and did not come to our forefathers for free. There comes a time when putting your own butt on the line is called for and should be welcomed.

Fiero, I agree with what you said up to a point. The thing is, the US gov't has spent billions on security precautions, created an agency of unionized security people at airports and brought out all sorts of things like a no-fly list and the like. If all that fails, then yes, the passengers are the first line of defense. But when you have a vacuous pinhead like Janet Napolitano say the passengers are the first line of defense, that basically means all the measures are a waste of money? Hardly.....

[Hondo]

The current war on terror wasn't started by Bush, Napolitano, Clinton, or Obama. It was started by the American civillian passengers aboard a doomed airliner acting on their own to bring the aircraft down far short of it's intended target. The government, or anybody's protection schemes can only go so far, and none are 100% foolproof. Once you throw in a bad guy that has no intention of getting away, it becomes almost impossible.

Large passenger aircraft are a terrorist's dream. Huge body counts along with carnage on the ground when they hit. It's just a matter of time before they start engaging air to air from another aircraft anyway.

[anthonyvop]

I think its up to the airlines to guarantee the security, if some specific destination causes security problems, they should check those more carefully and add the bill for that in the ticket price, not the way it is today that everyone pay extra.

This scum was on a flight from Amsterdam. lets just cut off Holland. The Shoe Bomber, Richard Reid, got on a plane in Paris. The Lockerbie bombing came from Heathrow.

The problem is the attacks don't happen on flights from the Peshawar valley in Pakistan or Yemen.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The current war on terror wasn't started by Bush, Napolitano, Clinton, or Obama. It was started by the American civillian passengers aboard a doomed airliner acting on their own to bring the aircraft down far short of it's intended target. The government, or anybody's protection schemes can only go so far, and none are 100% foolproof. Once you throw in a bad guy that has no intention of getting away, it becomes almost impossible.

Large passenger aircraft are a terrorist's dream. Huge body counts along with carnage on the ground when they hit. It's just a matter of time before they start engaging air to air from another aircraft anyway.

True enough, but if I am going to be stuck with all these hassles flying to or from the US, and all the enhanced security you are paying for, the least the head of Homeland Security can do is NOT treat the passengers taking their lives in their hands as the FIRST line of defense as if she was taking credit for it.

Tony has a point, these Mutt's board planes from places the world isn't expecting terrorists from. They are not getting on a flight from Karachi or the Emirates and trying to bomb them. They hit American carriers flying from Europe now. Not sure what more can be done, but I wish the current administration would take this stuff seriously. Obama pays lip service to it but his minions give a mixed message.

[Camelopard]

............. has a point, these Mutt's board planes from places the world isn't expecting terrorists from......


Yep, like putting 2 time bombs on a plane flying from Barbados to Jamaica.... :(

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB153/index.htm

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB157/index.htm

[Easy Drifter]

One major problem the US has is the various Agencies do not really talk to each other. It has been a serious problem forever. They all guard their turf.
The FBI are supposed to operate in the US only. They have operatives in most countries. The umpteen divisions of the CIA do not talk to each other let alone the FBI. Naval Intelligence and Army don't talk to each other let alone other agencies. The Drug and Firearms boys go their own way.
If there was real co operation all the little bits of info each bureau has gathered would often form a picture.
It doesn't seem to matter what any President says or orders it only gets lip service paid to it.
You also have had at times complete outsiders put in charge of both the CIA and the FBI. They do not really comprehend how spying/information gathering in the field works. Probably too much reliance is placed on electronic eavesdropping.
Info passed on, sometimes openly from friendly nations and somtimes through wierd channels from other not so friendly nations countries often seems to ignored.

[SportscarBruce]

Isn't it ironic that at least passengers can take their fate into their own hands venting a little range justice on that which threatened their lives while those responsible for the death tolls of ValuJet 592 and TWA Flight 800 didn't have that opportunity. There's also the endless criticisms towards the TSA amid calls for ethnic profiling and generalized kneejerk mass media driven paranoia. FAA's regulatory oversight failure, profit margin over pubic safety negligence, and investigative coverups don't garner nearly the attention a nutjob with an explosive jockstrap receives....

http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/CRASH/TWA/twa.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ValuJet_Airlines

[Roamy]

This is such a sad state their is no place to even start except for there should be no one in Yemen alive this morning. So it will go on until these acts will cause a very very large war. This admin is a joke in all respects so we just have to be ready for the aftermath. the cost the terrorist's pay for these terrible deeds is way to light so this will get much worse before it gets better.

[DexDexter]

What about security guards on the plane? It obviously costs money but hey there are flight attendants on every flight as well. I know that El Al has had security guards for years, and you don't see these shoe bombers etc. on their flights, which also means that screening passengers well enough is possible if there is enough will to do it.

[anthonyvop]

Yep, like putting 2 time bombs on a plane flying from Barbados to Jamaica.... :(

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB153/index.htm

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB157/index.htm

Maybe one day they will find out who really did it.

[Eki]

This scum was on a flight from Amsterdam. lets just cut off Holland. The Shoe Bomber, Richard Reid, got on a plane in Paris. The Lockerbie bombing came from Heathrow.

The problem is the attacks don't happen on flights from the Peshawar valley in Pakistan or Yemen.
Funnily, all those mentioned were on their way to the US. The problem would be solved if we just cut off the US.

[Tomi]

Funnily, all those mentioned were on their way to the US. The problem would be solved if we just cut off the US.

Or double check the passengers flying to us, and make the passengers pay for the checking, i dont think its fair that people who fly other destinations pay the us security checking like they do now.

[janvanvurpa]

This is such a sad state their is no place to even start except for there should be no one in Yemen alive this morning. So it will go on until these acts will cause a very very large war. This admin is a joke in all respects so we just have to be ready for the aftermath. the cost the terrorist's pay for these terrible deeds is way to light so this will get much worse before it gets better.


[church-lady voice on]
let's see.....who else advocated eradication of who populations and carried out mass murder of millions on ethnic grounds?

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/Amadeo78/07church.jpg

Could it be ...........Satan? [/church lady voice off]

No, it's just some schmuck in Arizona advocating murdering millions of people because some of those people don't like him.

Brilliant solution.
Brilliant.

[Roamy]

[church-lady voice on]
let's see.....who else advocated eradication of who populations and carried out mass murder of millions on ethnic grounds?

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/Amadeo78/07church.jpg

Could it be ...........Satan? [/church lady voice off]

No, it's just some schmuck in Arizona advocating murdering millions of people because some of those people don't like him.

Brilliant solution.
Brilliant.

maybe you - you fool - can demonstrate "Collateral Damage" for us.
Ha your administration is doing sooooooooo well. Nice we only have to wait til the 2012 elections to right the ship

[Roamy]

Oh and while we are at it JanVan maybe you could pull together your all time choice for the perfect marriage - Janet Napilitano and Janet Reno :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Hazell B]

The passengers should be .... exempt from any legal or civil liabilities possibly incurred through their efforts.

That's just about telling the whole world that if they want to kill somebody, it's okay so long as they can make that person out to be a terrorist. It's a deeply flawed idea, Fiero. Within days of something like that being publicised, half a dozen Brits will hang some poor bugger out of an aircraft window because he "spoke wiv a funny assent, mate"

I'm utterly disgusted at anyone thinking we, the people who pay for all the security, should be seen as guards ourselves. Come the day something nasty does happen, are we to be blamed if we didn't notice the man with the smoking shoes and face charges ourselves?

[Hondo]

What about security guards on the plane? It obviously costs money but hey there are flight attendants on every flight as well. I know that El Al has had security guards for years, and you don't see these shoe bombers etc. on their flights, which also means that screening passengers well enough is possible if there is enough will to do it.

An excellent point and one that works well but it requires an overt move on the part of the bad guy(s). Explosive devices don't always require such movements. There is also the possibility that the lone bad guy will decide that he and his nuts aren't yet ready to meet Allah and make an inept attempt followed by a quick surrender.

Many agencies limit communications amongst each other because of leaks and other security concerns that may jepoardize their primary operations. If the DEA is working a major narcotics case and gets wind of the passing of explosives and arms to a terrorist organization, it will not pass the info along if doing so might expose their own man. That's just the way it is.

I quit flying for the most part many years ago. I always enjoyed it but after they took my cigarettes, downsized the seat to scrunch more people in, and started treating you like herds of cattle instead of paying customers with options, I quit flying unless there was no other option. Another thing, there was a time when people paid heed to personal hygiene, dressed as though going to church or a fine resturant, and used their best manners while participating in air travel. Those days are gone also. It got worse after the 9/11 thing but I don't have to fly anymore and don't. You know, if I still have to sit next to a screaming baby for 4 hours, they should either allow me to smoke or toss the kid out of the window.

[Hondo]

That's just about telling the whole world that if they want to kill somebody, it's okay so long as they can make that person out to be a terrorist. It's a deeply flawed idea, Fiero. Within days of something like that being publicised, half a dozen Brits will hang some poor bugger out of an aircraft window because he "spoke wiv a funny assent, mate"

I'm utterly disgusted at anyone thinking we, the people who pay for all the security, should be seen as guards ourselves. Come the day something nasty does happen, are we to be blamed if we didn't notice the man with the smoking shoes and face charges ourselves?

A strange reaction from one who has become a one woman vigilence committie from time to time. I have no objections to me looking out for and being responsible for my personal security.

[Roamy]

All one of any intelligence has to do is go stand in a major airport security line to see what a ridicules world we have created following the paths of the impaired such as JanVan.

Do unto others before they do unto thee!!

[Wade91]

i personally have never been on a plane (never had a reason to) but it seems all that security would make it a pain in the @ss to fly,

if was gonna fly, i would rather take my chances rather than have to deal with all that security that obveasly doesn't do alot of good anyway

and i the passenger are the first line of defence, then why should they have to deal with all that security? :s

[Roamy]

Wade I would like to see a foolproof travel card for US citizens traveling within the US. Plus if you do not have a travel card you could expect to spend a lot of time in a security line. They could also come up with a international pass. It is people like JanVan that spend hours upon hours examining a 80 year old grandmother from Great Falls Montana! Racial and religious profiling is a necessity these days they sooner we get after it the better off the world will be!!

[Roamy]

Thanks you people like JanVan the following is what we have to look forward to.

http://www.break.com/usercontent/2008/6/Binary-Explosives-519240.html



--- WATCH THIS SHORT VIDEO, THEN THINK ABOUT OUR HOMELAND SECURITY CHIEF, JANET NAPOLITANO, THEN THINK ABOUT FLYING.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GOOD LUCK, I'LL "TURTLE" ALONG IN MY RV...
Subject: Binary Explosives - Talk about scary!

[Tomi]

Wade I would like to see a foolproof travel card for US citizens traveling within the US. Plus if you do not have a travel card you could expect to spend a lot of time in a security line. They could also come up with a international pass.

why dont try to solve the fundamental things that causes theese things?

[anthonyvop]

Wade I would like to see a foolproof travel card for US citizens traveling within the US. Plus if you do not have a travel card you could expect to spend a lot of time in a security line. They could also come up with a international pass. It is people like JanVan that spend hours upon hours examining a 80 year old grandmother from Great Falls Montana! Racial and religious profiling is a necessity these days they sooner we get after it the better off the world will be!!
A National ID card? No Freakin' way!!!!

I want one of either 2 things.
Either go El-Al all the way. Profile, Profile, Profile.....Search anybody who even smells of pita bread. Any suspicion? Kick them off the plane



Or.
Screw it all. Stop wasting my time with these ridiculous jokes of security measures and let us all take security in our own hands.

[Jag_Warrior]

This is such a sad state their is no place to even start except for there should be no one in Yemen alive this morning. So it will go on until these acts will cause a very very large war.

Fousto, unlike Afghanistan in 2001, the government of Yemen (or what's left of it) is actually fighting Al Qaeda. Nuking everybody there, including the good guys, would just spark a global backlash against the United States. If you want to radicalize most every Muslim in the world and REALLY build Al Qaeda's membership, that would be a good way to do it.



This admin is a joke in all respects so we just have to be ready for the aftermath. the cost the terrorist's pay for these terrible deeds is way to light so this will get much worse before it gets better.

Bush had Richard Reid on his watch and Obama has this kook. So... this incident is different how??? To be honest, the previous administration's foreign policy was probably pretty close to what you'd like to see. And here we are 8 years later: seemingly no better off now than we were before.

IMO, it's time for a new plan.

[Roamy]

I was not actually defending the Bush Admin. Unfortunately Bush caved due to left wing idiotic pressure. Cleary All along Cheney should have been the Pres and Bush the VP. Be sure and watch the above video. The Government in Yemen is a phony which you have obviously fallen for - which I did too for a while. I am sorry that so much trouble in the world is coming from a branch of the Muslim religion. The sooner we declare the entire religion and National threat and deal with it the better we will all be. It is up to the Muslim people to police themselves and demonstrate a acceptable solution. I think we have done a pretty good job of policing the KKK certainly much better than the Muslims policing the Islams.

So fire Away Tire's and JanVan you are the ones losing!! Actually most people on this forum are so fuzking stupid it is probably time for my exit. It isn't even worth the laptop energy to be on this site.

[Hondo]

why dont try to solve the fundamental things that causes theese things?

Because the fundamental things that cause these things are deeply rooted in human nature. In the most current guise, Islam is the excuse, not the cause. It is about greed, ego, lust for power, fear, coveting, and all the other things within human beings. A person with leadeship abilities selects whatever cause will become his excuse, or justification if you will, and starts the sales job on his faithful followers.

You'd have to find a way to alter human nature ala Clockwork Orange.

[Jag_Warrior]

I was not actually defending the Bush Admin. Unfortunately Bush caved due to left wing idiotic pressure. Cleary All along Cheney should have been the Pres and Bush the VP. Be sure and watch the above video. The Government in Yemen is a phony which you have obviously fallen for - which I did too for a while. I am sorry that so much trouble in the world is coming from a branch of the Muslim religion. The sooner we declare the entire religion and National threat and deal with it the better we will all be. It is up to the Muslim people to police themselves and demonstrate a acceptable solution. I think we have done a pretty good job of policing the KKK certainly much better than the Muslims policing the Islams.

So fire Away Tire's and JanVan you are the ones losing!! Actually most people on this forum are so fuzking stupid it is probably time for my exit. It isn't even worth the laptop energy to be on this site.

I didn't say that the government of Yemen was a stable one or a legitimate one. But it seems to be a fact that they are not siding with Al Qaeda, AFAIK. So I'm not exactly sure what good it would do to torch an entire country over the 300 +/- Al Qaeda members that reside there.

And you can hardly compare a few thousand cousin marrying rednecks to a religion of 1.6 billion people. If we declare a war on Islam, we will have played RIGHT into Al Qaeda's hands. They want us to not just address them, but to include the entire religion. We can't even get our #### straight against the hoople heads in Iraq and Afghanistan. What the hell would we do against an entire global religion?

I don't think we should be bowing down to anybody. But the last 8 years have certainly shown that a (half broke) country doing battle with even one or two backward countries isn't as easy as some make it seem.

I'm not picking on you, Fousto. And I'd hate to see you leave. I'm just pointing out that I don't see the logic in what you suggested. So what is the answer? I wish I knew.

[anthonyvop]

why dont try to solve the fundamental things that causes theese things?
And what are those things?
I will tell you.

Women's Rights
Gay Rights
Freedom of Religion
Freedom of Expression
Freedom of Speech

All we need to do is get rid of all that, convert to the right form of Islam and all of our problems are solved.

[Jag_Warrior]

This thread is already beginning to drift off topic, but here is a tidbit from today:


The US is planning retaliatory strikes in Yemen against al-Qaida over its attempt to blow up a transatlantic flight on Christmas Day.

American officials say intelligence efforts are focused on identifying and tracking down those who plotted to put Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab on the plane with enough explosive in his underwear to bring down the Northwest Airlines flight from Amsterdam. But they warn that finding those responsible is unlikely to be swift and say that identifying other "high-value" al-Qaida targets for retaliatory attack would also be a priority.


us-plots-retaliatory-strikes-yemen (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/30/us-plots-retaliatory-strikes-yemen)

[Tomi]

And what are those things?
I will tell you.

Women's Rights
Gay Rights
Freedom of Religion
Freedom of Expression
Freedom of Speech

All we need to do is get rid of all that, convert to the right form of Islam and all of our problems are solved.

those things exist in so many countrys who dont have any problems with muslims, it's propably something else.

[Camelopard]

Maybe one day they will find out who really did it.

Yep, maybe your good friend 'Bambi' will do the right thing and confess to his crimes on his death bed. :(

[Langdale Forest]

IMO opinion airport security is so restrictive that there is no point of leaving the UK.

[SportscarBruce]

A National ID card? No Freakin' way!!!!

I want one of either 2 things.
Either go El-Al all the way. Profile, Profile, Profile.....Search anybody who even smells of pita bread. Any suspicion? Kick them off the plane

Or.
Screw it all. Stop wasting my time with these ridiculous jokes of security measures and let us all take security in our own hands.

Based on a statistical analysis of racial/political/religious sub-group members conducting egregious, unlawful actions which threaten the health, security, and of the United States:

I will agree to aggressively profiling Arabs and Muslims at airports and you will agree to aggressive profiling of Jewish bankers, and high-placed government bureaucrats.

If one conducts a cursory examination of federal fraud, corruption, and espionage convictions on Wall Street and in Washington DC it'll seem like a hidden war of subversion for political and financial gain has been waged on the American government, American economy, and American people for decades.

Deal?

[Camelopard]

IMO opinion airport security is so restrictive that there is no point of leaving the UK.

I tend to agree, except in my case I just won't bother going to the USA by air.

Now that Air Canada has direct nonstop flights to Vancouver from Sydney there is no reason to go through the crap that used to happen at Honolulu when Air Canada flights used to transit there, even worse though is what happens at LAX.

[anthonyvop]

Based on a statistical analysis of racial/political/religious sub-group members conducting egregious, unlawful actions which threaten the health, security, and of the United States:

I will agree to aggressively profiling Arabs and Muslims at airports and you will agree to aggressive profiling of Jewish bankers, and high-placed government bureaucrats.

If one conducts a cursory examination of federal fraud, corruption, and espionage convictions on Wall Street and in Washington DC it'll seem like a hidden war of subversion for political and financial gain has been waged on the American government, American economy, and American people for decades.

Deal?
Jewish bankers? Are you on Drugs?

[anthonyvop]

Yep, maybe your good friend 'Bambi' will do the right thing and confess to his crimes on his death bed. :(

Please give it a rest. Anybody with even 1/2 a brain knows that it was the Cuban Government who destroyed the plane. Wouldn't be the first time that Castro and his cronies murdered his own people to suit his own needs.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Fousto, unlike Afghanistan in 2001, the government of Yemen (or what's left of it) is actually fighting Al Qaeda. Nuking everybody there, including the good guys, would just spark a global backlash against the United States. If you want to radicalize most every Muslim in the world and REALLY build Al Qaeda's membership, that would be a good way to do it..

I agree, get the right guys and don't punish all Muslims for the misdeeds of the radicals.




Bush had Richard Reid on his watch and Obama has this kook. So... this incident is different how??? To be honest, the previous administration's foreign policy was probably pretty close to what you'd like to see. And here we are 8 years later: seemingly no better off now than we were before.

IMO, it's time for a new plan.

The difference is Reid wasn't on a no fly or watch list if I am not mistaken. Reid exposed a new reality of terrorist bombers. There was no Reid's afterwards until this last incident. This guy was on the watch list, but what does that really mean? They didn't watch him on the plane obviously.

I don't think there is a solution. It is naive to say you need a new plan? New plan? Be nice to terrorists? Hug a thug? How about just tell every Muslim in the world they are not the enemy? Bush tried that, they don't believe him and despite Obama laying himself prostrate before the Muslim world ina few speeches, they don't buy it from him either. This will go on and on because the radical Muslims want it to go on. It is what gives them life and power. They would have nothing if they didn't have the great satan to fight. They hate the western world as a whole. They hate democracy, equal rights for women, free speech, freedom of religion, freedom to not have religion, freedom to eat pork, freedom to think...in short, they hate everything that we hold dear. This cannot stop, it is a part of our lives until we either kill every last radical (fat chance) or they run out of hate......

[edv]

Perhaps, in the US, anyone and everyone who owns guns should be allowed to carry them on all flights, locked and loaded.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Perhaps, in the US, anyone and everyone who owns guns should be allowed to carry them on all flights, locked and loaded.

Spoken like a True man from Alberta!!!!!

[Jag_Warrior]

I don't think there is a solution. It is naive to say you need a new plan? New plan? Be nice to terrorists? Hug a thug? How about just tell every Muslim in the world they are not the enemy? Bush tried that, they don't believe him and despite Obama laying himself prostrate before the Muslim world ina few speeches, they don't buy it from him either. This will go on and on because the radical Muslims want it to go on. It is what gives them life and power. They would have nothing if they didn't have the great satan to fight. They hate the western world as a whole. They hate democracy, equal rights for women, free speech, freedom of religion, freedom to not have religion, freedom to eat pork, freedom to think...in short, they hate everything that we hold dear. This cannot stop, it is a part of our lives until we either kill every last radical (fat chance) or they run out of hate......

Who said anything about "being nice to terrorists"? Going from one extreme to another... :rolleyes: A new idea or plan doesn't have to be something silly or radical. Just something sensible and hopefully more effective.

[Easy Drifter]

I do not know what the US Marshals carry as guns but the Israeli's use special loads that will not penetrate the hull of a plane or go through a body and hit another person.
I kind of suspect they use a light load with an 'illegal' dum dum or hollow point bullet. Great stopping power but not much penetration as the soft lead expands on impact.
The last thing you want is a bullet going through the fuselage of a plane at some thirty odd thousand feet.

[anthonyvop]

I do not know what the US Marshals carry as guns but the Israeli's use special loads that will not penetrate the hull of a plane or go through a body and hit another person.
I kind of suspect they use a light load with an 'illegal' dum dum or hollow point bullet. Great stopping power but not much penetration as the soft lead expands on impact.
The last thing you want is a bullet going through the fuselage of a plane at some thirty odd thousand feet.
Only anti-gun people who know nothing about firearms call them Dum-Dum and hollow points are not illegal.

They probably use Frangible ammo.
http://www.accutecusa.com/

Even though the whole idea of a bullet going through the wall of an airplane and causeing explosive demolition, destroying the plane is a myth.

[Jag_Warrior]

I do not know what the US Marshals carry as guns but the Israeli's use special loads that will not penetrate the hull of a plane or go through a body and hit another person.
I kind of suspect they use a light load with an 'illegal' dum dum or hollow point bullet. Great stopping power but not much penetration as the soft lead expands on impact.
The last thing you want is a bullet going through the fuselage of a plane at some thirty odd thousand feet.

You mean the Federal Air Marshals? I'm not really sure what caliber(s) they carry these days. Several years ago, I believe they were using 9mm semi-autos loaded with Glaser Safety Slugs. It's a type of frangible ammo that does tremendous internal damage, but doesn't overpenetrate and pretty much shatters if it hits a hard enough surface (skin of the plane or a thick window). We picked up some at a gun show years ago and wasted it shooting watermelons. Glasers can almost make a .380 or 9mm seem like a hollowpoint .44 Mag. Nasty rounds.

[Easy Drifter]

I know a lot about guns and ammo. I may use old terms but have used many types of weapons, including machine guns.

[Hondo]

When they began they were using modified Beretta pistols in .22 caliber. Hollow points, "dum-dums", and other special munitions are illegal for warfare against personnel. All are ok for police use depending on department rules.

The "dum-dum" was actually a normal British service round manufactured by the Dum Dum Arsenal in India. Soldiers in the field had begun removing the metal jacketing on the front half of the bullet so the bullet could expand and create a more devastating wound. The Dum Dum arsenal began doing it as part of the manufacturing process. A "Dum-Dum" is nothing more than a soft point bullet similar to those used by hunters today. Although the Dum Dum Arsenal also made hollow points, they were not referred to as "dum-dums".

Having seen photos of our latest Nigerian suicide bomber, I think the guy wanted to get caught. His face is filled with fear, not angry resolve. al-Q would've killed him if he tried to quit them so he botched it, got caught, and will make a couple of million dollars telling the US everything he knows. After that he'll get a new identity and a job working in a bowling alley in Canada.

[Hondo]

By the way, my previous post applies to the Israeli air marshalls, who were the first. I haven't a clue what they use now.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I don't see why people have a problem with their privacy when it comes to the airport scanners that shows you naked. If you're innocent what's the worst that they could discover about you? That you're a man or a woman!!!! OMFG!!!

[anthonyvop]

I don't see why people have a problem with their privacy when it comes to the airport scanners that shows you naked. If you're innocent what's the worst that they could discover about you? That you're a man or a woman!!!! OMFG!!!

There is no privacy issue. Nobody is forced to be searched or scanned. Only those who "CHOOSE" to fly on a commercial airline flight.

[Tomi]

There is no privacy issue. Nobody is forced to be searched or scanned. Only those who "CHOOSE" to fly on a commercial airline flight.

this would be a good system if take out other destinations but usa, then others could go back to normal check in on flights, no more extra waiting etc...

[anthonyvop]

this would be a good system if take out other destinations but usa, then others could go back to normal check in on flights, no more extra waiting etc...

If you think that terrorism is only targeted at US bound flights then you are ignorant and have no grasp of history.

Frankly I am tired of the lines and waiting but at least they are trying to do something.

[markabilly]

Perhaps, in the US, anyone and everyone who owns guns should be allowed to carry them on all flights, locked and loaded.
I would agree, but having seen th results of the annual state law required firearm qualifying results for some police departments, I am afraid the general population is even worse shots.
Therefore I would prefer no guns inside an airplane, as I do not want to get shot while taking a nap by some good citizen.......nor have bullets penetrating the hull of the plane. Explosive decompression from a shot in the right place, or a hit on the elctronics or other vitals, and the whole plane is going down.

What people are forgetting is that when you compare the current chances of getting killed by a terrorist on an airplance, that possibility is miniscule compared to chances of getting killed by incompetent, careless pilots, air controllers and mechanics........

[Jag_Warrior]

No way to arming passengers. The only people who would get shot would be obnoxious drunks and mothers with screaming babies... oh, and Ivana Trump (not that that would be a bad thing).

I'm with Markabilly: I'm more worried about the drunk, tired, or incompetent pilots and the planes that are being serviced in 3rd world countries by illiterate mechanics.

[Hondo]

The Israeli sky marshalls used specially modified Beretta Model 70s in .22 lr caliber. A straight, rimmed case like the .22lr not being the hot set-up for semi and fully automatic weapons, the pistols had various components lightened to ensure blowback function. Ejection ports were enlarged and all feeding surfaces were highly polished. An El Al fight could have anywhere from no marshalls aboard to 4 of them. Their rules of engagement were simple. If a person or persons tried to rush and gain the cockpit, kill them. No polite warnings or calls to surrender, just kill them.

I don't remember but I think the only time an Israeli marshall actually got into a shooting was on the ground somewhere in Europe. They were and probably are an effective method of prevention. And that's what you want, keep them guessing and have them take rushing the cockpit out of the playbook.

[Eki]

I remember seeing on some airport a guy offering a shoeshine (I think it was in Dublin). A shoeshine bomber, maybe?

[Jag_Warrior]

Sky marshals are fine if someone is trying to gain control of the plane. But with all (U.S.) planes now having the cockpit doors secured, that's unlikely to happen anyway. And let's be honest, on an American flight anyway, if an 80 year old woman starts for that cockpit door, she'll get the beat down of her life from every passenger that can get to her, long before the sky marshal could draw his weapon. But a sky marshal won't be much help for a concealed explosive device.

I noticed the networks were playing up what the Israelis do at Ben Gurion Airport. But they failed to mention that Ben Gurion is the only real international airport in Israel, and it only services about 10 million passengers a year. Atlanta services about 10 times that number annually. Even the smaller airports in the U.S. service more passengers than that.

Especially if they can get the technology nailed down a little better, I think the body scanners are the way to go. Unless you're a porn star or a celebrity, nobody wants to see your junk. Although there was a woman behind me the last time I flew out of Detroit... I would have paid $20 to get an X-ray vision shot of her. Perv! :D

[tinchote]

This scum was on a flight from Amsterdam. lets just cut off Holland. The Shoe Bomber, Richard Reid, got on a plane in Paris. The Lockerbie bombing came from Heathrow.

The problem is the attacks don't happen on flights from the Peshawar valley in Pakistan or Yemen.

Well, 9/11 happend from planes departed from Boston and NY, so you may cut those off too?

[anthonyvop]

Well, 9/11 happend from planes departed from Boston and NY, so you may cut those off too?

I was being sarcastic. I was pointing out that Islamic Terrorism is a World-Wide problem.

[Langdale Forest]

Everyone knows it is.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Having seen photos of our latest Nigerian suicide bomber, I think the guy wanted to get caught. His face is filled with fear, not angry resolve. al-Q would've killed him if he tried to quit them so he botched it, got caught, and will make a couple of million dollars telling the US everything he knows. After that he'll get a new identity and a job working in a bowling alley in Canada.

He would be running the equivalent of a Quikiee Mart....but then again, you guys keep him. We have enough immigrants who wont grasp the freedom they have.....