Ford agreed to sell Volvo brand to Chinese auto firm

[leopard]

Having heard of this news on news channel that Ford signed agreement to sell their Swedish brand Volvo to giant automaker Geely. The rumor have been floating around since good a while ago, but I do not expect that Ford finally release the Volvo brand off, let alone to Chinese firm. Anyone know this news in more details?

[Roamy]

it would probably be smart. Volvo doesn't sell that much in comparison. So stick them with a loser. Pretty soon the americans are going to wake TFU and realize that sending all their money abroad is not a real smart thing to do

[Tomi]

Its good that Volvo did go to the Chineese, soon we might get quality cars to reasonably prices, but for countries with big car industry this is bad news.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Its good that Volvo did go to the Chineese, soon we might get quality cars to reasonably prices, but for countries with big car industry this is bad news.

Volvo hasn't gone to the Chinese that I know of, and if it does, it would not bode well for a lot of jobs in Sweden. Tomi, Geely has built junk compared to the rest of the world as far as cars go, and while I think the Chinese could build a good car, the institutional arrogance of Chinese industry has stopped it from doing much more than copying the Western car makers.

Personallly, I hope Ford hangs onto Volvo. Some of the best cars of their class and unique. I would hate to see that change.

[anthonyvop]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5BM0WO20091224

[brandshatchman]

It will only be a matter of time before the Chinese have Volvo's plant and equipment shipped out to China lock, stock and barrel.

This is exactly what happened when Rover was taken over by the Chinese.

A bad day for the Swedish car industry and manufacturing in Europe in general. SAAB is also likely to be wound up after some of their assets were sold to a Chinese company.

We must be crazy here in Europe to allow the Chinese to dominate manufacturing industry. Soon we will be incapable of making ANYTHING here and totally reliant on imports from China for even the most basic products.

As soon as the Chinese have global domination of a particular industry, the day will come when they start to flex their muscles and put the squeeze on us here in Europe.

Another parallel is the way in which many European countries are totally reliant on Russia for gas supplies. There were a number of occasions last winter when the Russians cut off supplies to exert pressure on certain governments.

Glen

[Tomi]

It will only be a matter of time before the Chinese have Volvo's plant and equipment shipped out to China lock, stock and barrel.

This is exactly what happened when Rover was taken over by the Chinese.

A bad day for the Swedish car industry and manufacturing in Europe in general. SAAB is also likely to be wound up after some of their assets were sold to a Chinese company.

We must be crazy here in Europe to allow the Chinese to dominate manufacturing industry. Soon we will be incapable of making ANYTHING here and totally reliant on imports from China for even the most basic products.

As soon as the Chinese have global domination of a particular industry, the day will come when they start to flex their muscles and put the squeeze on us here in Europe.

Another parallel is the way in which many European countries are totally reliant on Russia for gas supplies. There were a number of occasions last winter when the Russians cut off supplies to exert pressure on certain governments.

Glen

You are right. Perhaps it's about time for politicians to take some responsibility, instead of giving their power away.

[anthonyvop]

It will only be a matter of time before the Chinese have Volvo's plant and equipment shipped out to China lock, stock and barrel.

This is exactly what happened when Rover was taken over by the Chinese.

A bad day for the Swedish car industry and manufacturing in Europe in general. SAAB is also likely to be wound up after some of their assets were sold to a Chinese company.

We must be crazy here in Europe to allow the Chinese to dominate manufacturing industry. Soon we will be incapable of making ANYTHING here and totally reliant on imports from China for even the most basic products.

As soon as the Chinese have global domination of a particular industry, the day will come when they start to flex their muscles and put the squeeze on us here in Europe.

Another parallel is the way in which many European countries are totally reliant on Russia for gas supplies. There were a number of occasions last winter when the Russians cut off supplies to exert pressure on certain governments.

Glen

And who is to blame for that? The Politicians for allowing the Chinese to buy or The politicians for caving into the "workers" who became over-payed and under-productive?

[Lousada]

And who is to blame for that? The Politicians for allowing the Chinese to buy or The politicians for caving into the "workers" who became over-payed and under-productive?

Or the workers for buying cheap sh*t from China instead of quality western stuff?

[anthonyvop]

Or the workers for buying cheap sh*t from China instead of quality western stuff?

Cheap? I remember when Japanese products were considered Cheap.

Face it. Those Cheap products allow people to have a better quality of life than they could if all their products were made locally.

How many people could afford a HD tv if it was built in the US or Europe?

[Malbec]

Cheap? I remember when Japanese products were considered Cheap.

Yeah I can't understand why people are always complacent about new manufacturing countries. Firstly people were going on about how the Japanese could only make cheap inferior copies, then once that stopped they said that about the Koreans, now its the Chinese.

Having been to China there are definitely many rip-offs but also many interesting new car designs there. Those guys are very ambitious and have a lot of cash, more than their Japanese/Korean predecessors did, and they are prepared to buy up Western companies to catch up quicker and gain a foothold in Europe.

Ford might need the cash but Volvo was (I believe) profitable for them, can't see the long term logic in letting them go to a future rival.

[janvanvurpa]

And who is to blame for that? The Politicians for allowing the Chinese to buy or The politicians for caving into the "workers" who became over-payed and under-productive?

Says the man who "produces" rewritten press releases!!! Ho Ho Ho!!!

I seriously wonder if Voppie has ever produced a single product in his life?


There is an other possible explanation; Managers/owners/BoDs who are too complacent, stupid, greedy--incompetent in general to make a product worth buying,

What deadwood parasites who sit on their asses their whole lives don't recognise---since they have not the foggiest notion of how a product is MADE---is the workers can only make what their employers have them make....

The US industrial worker has increased productivity year by year yet wages have shrunk by around 27% for same job compared with 30 years ago.

Of course somebody who has never worked a real job would never know that, they'll just repeat blather and noise just as Vop always does.

[DexDexter]

Its good that Volvo did go to the Chineese, soon we might get quality cars to reasonably prices, but for countries with big car industry this is bad news.

There is nothing good about it, why would you think that? It's sad that Scandinavian auto-industry is pretty soon a thing of the past since Volvo and Saab have always made quality cars suited to Nordic environment.

[Tomi]

There is nothing good about it, why would you think that? It's sad that Scandinavian auto-industry is pretty soon a thing of the past since Volvo and Saab have always made quality cars suited to Nordic environment.

Yes, offcourse it's sad, but what I mean its better it goes to the Chineese than if they would stop producing the cars, I did not see any serious attempts from the Swedes to try to keep Volvo in Swedish control the same goes for Saab too.

[Camelopard]

Says the man who "produces" rewritten press releases!!! Ho Ho Ho!!!

I seriously wonder if Voppie has ever produced a single product in his life?
.....
Of course somebody who has never worked a real job would never know that, they'll just repeat blather and noise just as Vop always does.





ROTFLMAO

:) :) :) :) :)

[Camelopard]

Says the man who "produces" rewritten press releases!!! Ho Ho Ho!!!

I seriously wonder if Voppie has ever produced a single product in his life?


There is an other possible explanation; Managers/owners/BoDs who are too complacent, stupid, greedy--incompetent in general to make a product worth buying,

What deadwood parasites who sit on their asses their whole lives don't recognise---since they have not the foggiest notion of how a product is MADE---is the workers can only make what their employers have them make....

The US industrial worker has increased productivity year by year yet wages have shrunk by around 27% for same job compared with 30 years ago.

Of course somebody who has never worked a real job would never know that, they'll just repeat blather and noise just as Vop always does.


R O T F L M A O

:) :) :) :) :)

[Hondo]

Says the man who "produces" rewritten press releases!!! Ho Ho Ho!!!

I seriously wonder if Voppie has ever produced a single product in his life?


There is an other possible explanation; Managers/owners/BoDs who are too complacent, stupid, greedy--incompetent in general to make a product worth buying,

What deadwood parasites who sit on their asses their whole lives don't recognise---since they have not the foggiest notion of how a product is MADE---is the workers can only make what their employers have them make....

The US industrial worker has increased productivity year by year yet wages have shrunk by around 27% for same job compared with 30 years ago.

Of course somebody who has never worked a real job would never know that, they'll just repeat blather and noise just as Vop always does.

It's not often, if at all, I find myself in agreement with janvan but he has some points this time. It must be conceded though that most assembly line style work can be farmed out to anywhere. In addition to industrial employees having less actual buying power with their wages, they are being compelled to work longer hours as companies find it's cheaper to pay overtime than to hire more employees. Most all employees can expect to be asked to work some overtime every now and then but that overtime has changed into all the time with the employee required to work it or quit.

Management pays little attention to advice and suggestions from the field. They act like they listen to be polite, but nothing changes. That's a shame because the guys in the field have hands-on knowledge of the job and are constantly finding ways to do the job faster, easier, and safer.

Lastly, I've been expecting the current unemployment situation for years. As mutual funds expanded and became better known to the common man in the early 80's, especially through 401k programs, private investing has taken off. As the share value of their funds increased and common folks started building wealth, on paper anyway, they increased investment. It wasn't long before folks were looking at, unheard of to them, retirement amounts of $200,000 to $500,000 dollars. What many didn't realize was that a large chunk of these huge profits were being generated by outsourcing jobs overseas to cheaper labor markets. As long as they were building wealth and had their job, they didn't care that they were riding on a dog that was chasing it's own tail. Now the dog has caught the tail, bit it, and found out who it belonged to.

Back when oil prices went so high I 'd be willing to bet that some of the same people that were bitching about oil profits held shares in mutual funds that were holding oil stocks and sharing in those huge profits. In a twisted, ironic sense, they were complaining about themselves.

[anthonyvop]

janvanvurpa,

Congratulations!
Your speed into resorting to rule #1 of being a liberal was stunning. Personal attacks shall be ignored.

As for your other baseless statements...please explain to me that if it is true then why are companies heading offshore?
Please remember that I am a freedom loving capitalist.

[janvanvurpa]

janvanvurpa,

Congratulations!
Your speed into resorting to rule #1 of being a liberal was stunning. Personal attacks shall be ignored.

As for your other baseless statements...please explain to me that if it is true then why are companies heading offshore?
Please remember that I am a freedom loving capitalist.

No1 rule of assh***les: It's all right to talk sh*t about thousands, even millions of other people , perfectly alright for you to slander and, being the person you are flat lie about workers in the US being "over-payed" and "underproductive'.
Which is a huge attack, and a huge lie.


But its a personal attack to ask if you've ever done anything productive yourself? OOOooooooooohhhh!

Why is it OK for you to bash, slander and lie about millions of working Americans,
but its not OK for a working American to ask you what you do other than re-phrase car reports and sit on your presumably huge Cuban ass?

You have no special status and yet you act as if you're beyond reproach,
"above" answering.

You won't answer because the truth is you're under-productive and overpaid by your very nature and the hilarity of you whining about OTHER Americans being overpaid and under-productive would be manifest.

This is almost as funny as you talking what a Patriot you are and decrying Terrorism yet sipping rum with a murdering terrorist.

If you hate this country so much then why don't you move?

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think Jan you can have a cogent argument without beating on Tony for never working in a factory. Tony is in Miami, they don't build anything down there anyhow...lol

I am with you to an extent Jan. The Working class of North America and Europe has lost a lot of jobs due to outsourcing but of course, that is capitalism. Once one company discovered he could pay some Chinese or Indians 4 bucks an hour ( or often a lot less) to build his widgets as opposed to a UAW guy 22 an hour plus benefits, and get the same product, the pressure was on.

The real problem is the working class of North America wants and desires all the wealth and luxury that people in poorer nations only dream of, but has to compete with those same poor for the jobs. Tariffs and the cost of transport, plus the lack of adequate skills and education kept the 3rd world from competing for those jobs in the past, but in a free trade enviroment, plus factored in by the fact many nations have stepped up their educational programs and have entered the "take off" stage of development means the pressure is greater.

I am allfor the blue collar working class in North America. Until last week I was a member of it. I also know tho that capital respects no borders, and those who risk the most financially in creating companies will get the wealth. If you work for someone else, you can only be so rich. What us working class stiff's have to realize is the perils of not either working for oneself means you don't always control you destiny. It isn't personal, it is business. Companies will not artificially pay MORE than they have to for a social principle and stay competitive. If the Unions cannot grasp this, they will see the jobs go offshore, because the consumer of the product will often be price dependent. If I am building a small car for 40000 dollars a copy because I am paying my workers 30 dollars an hour, and my competition is building them with labour paying 15 in Mexico, then he is going to sell more cars just on price alone. People want cheap stuff....and I am sure when you buy your clothes or groceries, you often do it based on price. We should look beyond it, but if you have 20 bucks and you need a shirt, you will buy it at Wal Mart over the 80 dollar Tommy Bahama at the men's wear store....

[Easy Drifter]

When we had our store just about every item I sold in the tackle dept was made in Asia. It didn't matter the name but most were actually made offshore.
There were a few items still made in NA or Europe but not many. I tried to buy NA but had to stock other products if I didn't want mostly bare shelves.
Shimano, a top line of Japanese reels were not made in Japan anymore but elsewhere in Asia.
My best selling by far reel was Okuma, a mainland Chinese company. Excellent reel, and cheap compared to most others. I know of no reel actually made in NA or Europe that the average fisherman would buy.
What was interesting was that some of the Okuma reels were made in Taiwan!

[Tomi]

My best selling by far reel was Okuma, a mainland Chinese company. Excellent reel, and cheap compared to most others. I know of no reel actually made in NA or Europe that the average fisherman would buy.
What was interesting was that some of the Okuma reels were made in Taiwan!

I have 2 old penn bakelite reels, i still use for basic fishing, but lately it has been Japaneese stuff when I have bought, or the brand is Japaneese, but propably built somewhere else in Asia, same is with diving suits and almost whatever you buy nowdays.

[anthonyvop]

The problem with people like janvanvurpa is they talk about how they are for the "people." Of course he means only certain people. Business Owners, small and large, are to condemned as evil.

Sometimes a business owner has to make a tough decision. Either use outsourcing and lay off some workers or not to outsource, go out a business and everybody is laid off...including the business owner.

Here is a bit of information that may surprise all you defenders of the "workers".
Businesses exist for one thing and one thing only......TO MAKE MONEY. If that doesn't happen there are no "workers".

Not too long ago I was involved in a business that needed to source a certain product. The only American made version was priced too high to make the venture profitable. We ended up narrowing it down to 2 offshore sources with a price within the budget. One was in China the other was in the Philippines. The Filipino product was 2.4% more after all cost were added but we went with it as we preferred buying from a Democratic country then support the Fascist regime in China.

Later found out that the American company had closed up their factory and moved offshore as well. Seems that even though sales were way down the Union(workers) refused to grant concessions.

[anthonyvop]

I have 2 old penn bakelite reels, i still use for basic fishing, but lately it has been Japaneese stuff when I have bought, or the brand is Japaneese, but propably built somewhere else in Asia, same is with diving suits and almost whatever you buy nowdays.

Ross reels are still made in the USA. I have just ordered a Glavan Rush Larger Arbor reel and it is made in the USA. These are Fly reels so they can be considered "boutique" reels.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

.
Businesses exist for one thing and one thing only......TO MAKE MONEY. If that doesn't happen there are no "workers".

.

Interesting sub-topic perhaps. Do businesses exist just to 'make money' or is 'profit maximization' or even just 'survival' or more accurate description? I suppose making money is what contributes to both of these.


Carry on... :dozey:

[Tomi]

Interesting sub-topic perhaps. Do businesses exist just to 'make money' or is 'profit maximization' or even just 'survival' or more accurate description? I suppose making money is what contributes to both of these.


Carry on... :dozey:

Depends on the business, i think for bigger companies the current quartal economy shows its about maximizing profits, and to keep the share price high as possible so that the share owners are happy, smaller businesses usually compete locally with others in same brance, for them its a little different thing.

[janvanvurpa]

The problem with people like janvanvurpa is they talk about how they are for the "people." Of course he means only certain people. Business Owners, small and large, are to condemned as evil.

I am a business owner you imbecile, and I manufacture parts and components for things called RALLY CARS and I make RALLY suspension and build RALLY ENGINES with parts made and modded some by me, some made by others here in USA, UK, and PRC. I sell in USA, Canada, UK, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Nederland, PRC,--and now just sent some goodies to Portugal and Australia.
In fact in the last round of the Canadian Championship for rally at Tall Pines 20% of the finishers were on JVAB Suspension including 7th Overall Chris Martin, 10th the Narinis, 13th O.A. Martin Walter and 25th a 240 Volvo guy.
http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,33489,33612#msg-33612

Not bad for a 1 man shop.

Don't lie further than you usually do and put your stupid words in my mouth.


Here is a bit of information that may surprise all you defenders of the "workers".
Businesses exist for one thing and one thing only......TO MAKE MONEY. If that doesn't happen there are no "workers".

Sure do blab an awful lot about nonsense when asked "Have YOU ever MADE anything?"





Not too long ago I was involved in a business that needed to source a certain product. The only American made version was priced too high to make the venture profitable. We ended up narrowing it down to 2 offshore sources with a price within the budget. One was in China the other was in the Philippines. The Filipino product was 2.4% more after all cost were added but we went with it as we preferred buying from a Democratic country then support the Fascist regime in China.

Later found out that the American company had closed up their factory and moved offshore as well. Seems that even though sales were way down the Union(workers) refused to grant concessions.

Not surprising it went out of business if they were idiots.
The fact that they were idiots is shown by the mere fact they employed a person who never say a single thing that uis true, never concedes a screw up and is an idiot who can't figure out the difference between types of Governmental systems.

Second, the idiots didn't think, Hey were're doing business with a COMPANY---and by doing that we're CHANGING THE SOCIETY and it's relationship to the central Government.
Only true, classic idiots such as you Vop, would mistake doing business with a company with supporting a regime, as if the Philippine Government is somehow clean (less that 3% of the country, nearly all Ethnic Chinese or fronts for Ethnic Chinese own about 95% of everything worthwhile in the Philippines. To say it is thoroughly corrupt is an understatement----)

You'd think you'd eventually stop making up crap what you say about other people and lying about what they say.
I find it pretty offensive even considering that it comes from who obviously is a sociopath.


So, ever made anything in your entire life?

Anything?.......

[airshifter]

I think Jan you can have a cogent argument without beating on Tony for never working in a factory. Tony is in Miami, they don't build anything down there anyhow...lol

I am with you to an extent Jan. The Working class of North America and Europe has lost a lot of jobs due to outsourcing but of course, that is capitalism. Once one company discovered he could pay some Chinese or Indians 4 bucks an hour ( or often a lot less) to build his widgets as opposed to a UAW guy 22 an hour plus benefits, and get the same product, the pressure was on.

The real problem is the working class of North America wants and desires all the wealth and luxury that people in poorer nations only dream of, but has to compete with those same poor for the jobs. Tariffs and the cost of transport, plus the lack of adequate skills and education kept the 3rd world from competing for those jobs in the past, but in a free trade enviroment, plus factored in by the fact many nations have stepped up their educational programs and have entered the "take off" stage of development means the pressure is greater.

I am allfor the blue collar working class in North America. Until last week I was a member of it. I also know tho that capital respects no borders, and those who risk the most financially in creating companies will get the wealth. If you work for someone else, you can only be so rich. What us working class stiff's have to realize is the perils of not either working for oneself means you don't always control you destiny. It isn't personal, it is business. Companies will not artificially pay MORE than they have to for a social principle and stay competitive. If the Unions cannot grasp this, they will see the jobs go offshore, because the consumer of the product will often be price dependent. If I am building a small car for 40000 dollars a copy because I am paying my workers 30 dollars an hour, and my competition is building them with labour paying 15 in Mexico, then he is going to sell more cars just on price alone. People want cheap stuff....and I am sure when you buy your clothes or groceries, you often do it based on price. We should look beyond it, but if you have 20 bucks and you need a shirt, you will buy it at Wal Mart over the 80 dollar Tommy Bahama at the men's wear store....

Though I'm all for the working person, I think the unions helped speed up the downfall of the auto industry in the US. They reached a point where they would defend the idiots who didn't deserve a place in that plant, and forgot that they should have represented the quality, hard working, honest employees that really deserved the wages and benefits that were being offered for that hard work.

Combine that with the fact that these jobs often paid so well that the white collar workers would often rather wear that blue collar for equal or better wage, and less responsibility.

I don't know how it affects things in Canada or Europe, but to some extent I think the working class of the US took for granted what they had and got greedy. It's a shame for those of those that didn't take it for granted and rightly earned their wages, but those without such motivation helped ruin it for many others.

[anthonyvop]

So, ever made anything in your entire life?

Anything?.......
The Homes and warehouses I have built, the Hurricane Code Windows I've manufactured and exported to the Caribbean, The Television work i have produced locally, nationally and international, The Radio work i have done, The motorsports and music Events I have coordinated, The marketing and PR I ran for a multipurpose Motorsports Facility and the 3 working projects that are coming together.........Just pale in comparison to your slapping together some springs and dampers so some guy can finish 7th in what is basically Canadian Club rally event.

And then you call me an imbecile??????

I try not to pay attention to rumors and gossip but I guess what they say about you is true.

[Easy Drifter]

Tomi, I cannot remember for sure but I think Penn reels are now made in either Bangladesh or Malaysia. Maybe not the top of the line but most. Actually Penn reels are mostly low end.

[Tomi]

Tomi, I cannot remember for sure but I think Penn reels are now made in either Bangladesh or Malaysia. Maybe not the top of the line but most. Actually Penn reels are mostly low end.

Yes they are nothing special, but very reliable, i use those when trolling pikepearch and simular stuff.

[GridGirl]

The economic downturn has seen a number of my clients go into administration or just give up. The majority of them were profitable yet all of them ran out of cash. Sure profitability is important but at the end of the day cash is still king. :)

[driveace]

A host of goods that were always built in Europe are now all made in the PRC= The Peoples Republic of China
And they are cheap and throw away too!

[DexDexter]

A host of goods that were always built in Europe are now all made in the PRC= The Peoples Republic of China
And they are cheap and throw away too!

Not necessarily, lots of stuff is made in China and surprise surprise, some of it is of a very high quality.

[Hondo]

I've only known 3 people that have bought new Volvos. All 3 were purchased in the 1970's. Two had automatic transmissions and one had a manual gearbox. All three had constant transmission problems.

I know it was a long time ago but things like that tend to stick with you and to this day I wouldn't buy a Volvo whether they were made in Sweden, China, Cuba or the USA.

[Tomi]

I've only known 3 people that have bought new Volvos. All 3 were purchased in the 1970's. Two had automatic transmissions and one had a manual gearbox. All three had constant transmission problems.

I know it was a long time ago but things like that tend to stick with you and to this day I wouldn't buy a Volvo whether they were made in Sweden, China, Cuba or the USA.

Yep, in Germany they build the cars, and in Norway the boats.

[Jag_Warrior]

I've only known 3 people that have bought new Volvos. All 3 were purchased in the 1970's. Two had automatic transmissions and one had a manual gearbox. All three had constant transmission problems.

I know it was a long time ago but things like that tend to stick with you and to this day I wouldn't buy a Volvo whether they were made in Sweden, China, Cuba or the USA.

I guess I'm a little different. I wouldn't assume that a good car brand from 40 years ago is still a good car brand. And I wouldn't assume that a bad car brand from 40 years ago is still a bad car brand. The Jaguars of the 1970's were some of the poorest quality cars made. The Jaguars of today are consistently in the Top 5 with regard to quality. I haven't kept up with Volvo, so I don't know what the data says about its cars.

Anyway, the Chinese buying Volvo from Ford is definitely going to be good (longer term) for China - just another piece of their gigantic puzzle falling into place. I'm not sure what it's going to mean for others though.

[Tomi]

Anyway, the Chinese buying Volvo from Ford is definitely going to be good (longer term) for China - just another piece of their gigantic puzzle falling into place. I'm not sure what it's going to mean for others though.

I think you are right, the reason there is still no Chineese cars on the european market, is because they have failed in the security tests, buying Volvo and perhaps other manufacturers too, it wont take long anymore until they bring cars for sale.
It will be interesting to see what happens then, because the car industry is a big employer in many countries.

[harsha]

with the aversion to chinese products that most of you ppl seem to be having,why not stop using the apple IPods,IPhones etc etc....

[Hondo]

Evan the Chinese are being under cut. Used to be Japanese guitars were inferior, then Japanese guitars became good and Korean guitars became inferior, then Korean guitars became good and Chinese guitars became inferior. An American made Fender Stratocaster is going to cost you over $1000, an excellent Korean Strat will cost half that and sound just as good. A Gibson Les Paul is going to cost over $2000 for a standard model. I have an Epiphone Les Paul Elistist, made in Japan using Gibson USA electronics, $1000. I have 2 Korean Agile Les Pauls and both sound as good as the Epiphone. My favorite bass is a Peavy neck through the body 4 string made in Viet Nam of all places. The name on the headstock won't make you play any better but the lower price of the import may allow you to play.

[Tomi]

Evan the Chinese are being under cut. Used to be Japanese guitars were inferior, then Japanese guitars became good and Korean guitars became inferior, then Korean guitars became good and Chinese guitars became inferior. An American made Fender Stratocaster is going to cost you over $1000, an excellent Korean Strat will cost half that and sound just as good. A Gibson Les Paul is going to cost over $2000 for a standard model. I have an Epiphone Les Paul Elistist, made in Japan using Gibson USA electronics, $1000. I have 2 Korean Agile Les Pauls and both sound as good as the Epiphone. My favorite bass is a Peavy neck through the body 4 string made in Viet Nam of all places. The name on the headstock won't make you play any better but the lower price of the import may allow you to play.

I think you are right about this, but if one really wants a quality Les Paul, any luthier can build one for a reasonable price, and you can be sure the wood is properly selected too, so that there is no routed chambers they now days do to make it lighter, because of the lack of proper wood.

[anthonyvop]

with the aversion to chinese products that most of you ppl seem to be having,why not stop using the apple IPods,IPhones etc etc....

I have no apple products and I go out of my way not to purchase products made in the PRC.

[Hondo]

I think you are right about this, but if one really wants a quality Les Paul, any luthier can build one for a reasonable price, and you can be sure the wood is properly selected too, so that there is no routed chambers they now days do to make it lighter, because of the lack of proper wood.

Really and truly, with electronics being what they are today, you could attach 6 strings to a 2 by 4 chunk of wood and make it sound like whatever you want it to. I actually like the weight of a Les Paul.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I have no apple products and I go out of my way not to purchase products made in the PRC.

Guess you don't go to Wal Mart much, or Target..

Avoiding stuff from PRC is just about impossible sadly....of course, one could argue the Chinese are just better at this capitalist thing than we would like. Thank god we have it all over them in human rights and freedoms or they really would bury the West...

[anthonyvop]

Guess you don't go to Wal Mart much, or Target..

Avoiding stuff from PRC is just about impossible sadly....of course, one could argue the Chinese are just better at this capitalist thing than we would like. Thank god we have it all over them in human rights and freedoms or they really would bury the West...

I said I try. And yes it is pretty damn near impossible. But if i am buying something like a DVD player for example and one is made in the PRC and the other is made in another less repressive country and are within a reasonable price I bypass the PRC made one.

And it is not just the PRC. I try to avoid buying products or simply refuse to buy from repressive countries.
Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia, a long list of African countries, and Finland to name a few.

[Jag_Warrior]

I think you are right, the reason there is still no Chineese cars on the european market, is because they have failed in the security tests, buying Volvo and perhaps other manufacturers too, it wont take long anymore until they bring cars for sale.
It will be interesting to see what happens then, because the car industry is a big employer in many countries.

Yes, like other developing nations did years ago, the Chinese still struggle with quality assurance. I think they bought some older Saab technology recently. And once they secure Volvo (and steal some of this and some of that from the other foreign makers in China now), I think they'll eventually get the manufacturing processes figured out.

I just wish they'd practiced on cars and metal widgets before they got into children's toys and food stuffs though. If the FDA and the FTC were really doing their jobs, I'd say a lot of Chinese products would be refused and returned to sender.