Should we be using winter tyres in the UK?

[Daniel]

Firstly before some clot say "We're not bloody Finland or Russia, we don't always have snow" let me just say that a more correct name for winter tyres would be cold weather tyres because they are made of a far softer compound than summer tyres and are still softer than all weather tyres. Because we're all motorsport fans here we know that the hotter it is the harder the compound you run because rubber softens up under heat and the colder it is the softer the compound you run because rubber hardens up when it's cold. The tyre companies say that summer tyres and winter tyres are equal at 7 degrees C and below that the gap just gets wider and wider.

Here's a graphic illustration of the capabilities of winter tyres on 3 cars of a similar weight and configuration.
pXuhfwY74b8

Now we've had a bit of snow in the South West of England yesterday and today and because the tyres sold in the UK are almost exclusively summer tyres every one is (to quote Dave Brockman) "doing Torville & Dean impressions" on the road and no one's getting to work and the economy is losing money, cars are going off the road, having accidents etc etc. Now if we're to believe what the media tells us, these sorts of events will be more common and probably more severe in the future because of global warming so is there now a case for winter tyres in the UK? People argue that it's an extra expense but can you really put a price on having more grip in the cooler months and also not being completely helpless in the event of heavy snow? It's not even that much of an expense! You buy some cheap steelies or alloys and then you buys your winter tyres which in general are actually cheaper than summer tyres so you don't get all that nasty salt screwing your nice wheels up, and you save wear on your more expensive summer tyres.

A link to a BBC story so some of the foreigners can have a read and a larf.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8419898.stm

Am I missing something here?

[BeansBeansBeans]

I got all crossed up today entering my father-in-law's road. I thought I was going to scuff my alloys on the kerb but I managed to save it with a dab of oppo.

[Daniel]

a dab of oppo.

:s mokin: :up: :D

[Eki]

Firstly before some clot say "We're not bloody Finland or Russia, we don't always have snow" let me just say that a more correct name for winter tyres would be cold weather tyres because they are made of a far softer compound than summer tyres and are still softer than all weather tyres. Because we're all motorsport fans here we know that the hotter it is the harder the compound you run because rubber softens up under heat and the colder it is the softer the compound you run because rubber hardens up when it's cold. The tyre companies say that summer tyres and winter tyres are equal at 7 degrees C and below that the gap just gets wider and wider.

Here's a graphic illustration of the capabilities of winter tyres on 3 cars of a similar weight and configuration.
pXuhfwY74b8

Now we've had a bit of snow in the South West of England yesterday and today and because the tyres sold in the UK are almost exclusively summer tyres every one is (to quote Dave Brockman) "doing Torville & Dean impressions" on the road and no one's getting to work and the economy is losing money, cars are going off the road, having accidents etc etc. Now if we're to believe what the media tells us, these sorts of events will be more common and probably more severe in the future because of global warming so is there now a case for winter tyres in the UK? People argue that it's an extra expense but can you really put a price on having more grip in the cooler months and also not being completely helpless in the event of heavy snow? It's not even that much of an expense! You buy some cheap steelies or alloys and then you buys your winter tyres which in general are actually cheaper than summer tyres so you don't get all that nasty salt screwing your nice wheels up, and you save wear on your more expensive summer tyres.

A link to a BBC story so some of the foreigners can have a read and a larf.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8419898.stm

Am I missing something here?
Actually, you can by so called "friction tires" that don't have studs. Those you can use all year if you don't want two sets of tires.

[Daniel]

Actually, you can by so called "friction tires" that don't have studs. Those you can use all year if you don't want two sets of tires.
Studded tyres are illegal here Eki, when I say winter tyres I mean something like this

http://koleso.topof.ru/files/goodyear_ultra_grip-7.jpg

[Dave B]

I've got 2 shiny new (standard) PIrellis waiting at the tyre fitters but I can't get there because the roads are too slippery! Oooh the irony.

[Daniel]

I've got 2 shiny new (standard) PIrellis waiting at the tyre fitters but I can't get there because the roads are too slippery! Oooh the irony.
Dafty! Make sure they put them on the rear axle :)

[Sonic]

I've got 2 shiny new (standard) PIrellis waiting at the tyre fitters but I can't get there because the roads are too slippery! Oooh the irony.

LOL!

In answer to the thread - no. Better driving style would be a much better investment than buying tires for different seasons. Back in Feb when we had the worst snow in 18 years I was out working (driving instructor) teaching my clients an invaluable lesson in car control and winter driving preparations. The lessons were good fun, despite their initial misgivings and I bet they are all very pleased they had the practise now the snow is even worse.

[555-04Q2]

before some clot say "We're not bloody Finland or Russia, we don't always have snow"

:D "We're not bloody Finland or Russia, we don't always have snow." :D

[Daniel]

LOL!

In answer to the thread - no. Better driving style would be a much better investment than buying tires for different seasons. Back in Feb when we had the worst snow in 18 years I was out working (driving instructor) teaching my clients an invaluable lesson in car control and winter driving preparations. The lessons were good fun, despite their initial misgivings and I bet they are all very pleased they had the practise now the snow is even worse.

I certainly agree with you that better driver training is needed BUT better driver training can't fight the laws of physics. It's proven that winter tyres give better grip below 7 degrees c regardless of whether there's snow around and if it's wet the difference is even greater. If your tyres haven't got any grip it doesn't matter how much skill you've got, you aint going nowhere. I certainly don't want it to sound like winter tyres will keep everyone 100% safe and as always it goes hand in hand with sensible and skillful driving but the benefits are proven.

[MrJan]

Winter tyres? Pah, bit of a boot, touch of oversteer and I'm smiling........until I hit something ;)

[Sonic]

I certainly agree with you that better driver training is needed BUT better driver training can't fight the laws of physics. It's proven that winter tyres give better grip below 7 degrees c regardless of whether there's snow around and if it's wet the difference is even greater. If your tyres haven't got any grip it doesn't matter how much skill you've got, you aint going nowhere. I certainly don't want it to sound like winter tyres will keep everyone 100% safe and as always it goes hand in hand with sensible and skillful driving but the benefits are proven.

Indeed. As with everything though its a balance. It too many instances drivers mistakenly believe that driver aids (be that ABS, TC, or super stick tires) are driver replacements. As you say you can't change the laws of physics but too many think ABS or whatever will save them.

[Daniel]

Indeed. As with everything though its a balance. It too many instances drivers mistakenly believe that driver aids (be that ABS, TC, or super stick tires) are driver replacements. As you say you can't change the laws of physics but too many think ABS or whatever will save them.
Couldn't agree more. It's always been my opinion that things like having a 5 star NCAP rating, ABS, EBD, ASR/TC and ESP make people a bit lazy about driving. I suspect there were some people this morning who felt that traction control, ASR/TC and if they had it 4wd would keep them on the road.

What do you think of some suggestions that people should have to be tested on their driving regularly rather than just once as it is now?

[Schurke]

I´m for the winter tyres.

Agreed that the driver is/should be in control of the vehicle and better driving skills help, but that´s taken in the context that everyone is driving around like a loon. http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/smilies/roll_eyes.gif

If you live in an area that has a few hills or even a sloped driveway you will find that winter tyres make a huge difference if there is snow lying.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I guess they don't sell an All season tire in the UK? They are a tire that isn't a great summer performer, but ok, and in winter they can be ok, not great in snow. I live in a winter climate, but find with traffic being what it is when it snows, I don't get up to any high rate of speed anyhow, and have gotten by with All Seasons. I SHOULD have Winter tires if I did any commuting, but most of my work week the car isn't going anywhere, it is sitting. Also, in Southern Ontario where I am, the snow removal and salt trucks have the roads to bare pavement in about 12 hours after a snow on all major routes.

IN the UK, I would think you would wear out winter tires on the pavement for the amount of snow you get, but since I am not there, I cannot comment. I just know in Quebec, it is law to have Winter tires...and I suspect it will be law here too. Because god knows some people cannot drive on dry pavement, but somehow passing laws that fit everyone will allow the pol's to think they have done all they can. I have been driving 25 years, and I have never left the road in the winter. Got stuck a few times yes...but that was in drives or parking lots. So take it from someone who LIVES in a winter clime, winter tires are a great asset, but for one or two snows a year; I would get by with an all season tire if it was available.

[Hazell B]

Considering the number of morons who claim to be snowed in by two inches of weather - yes!

I've got good tyres on my Range Rover. It simply doesn't slide an inch, even when I tried this morning on an empty car park. Yet somehow half of the street I live on is claiming they dare not drive at all :mark:
Pathetic.

[Fred Basset]

I guess they don't sell an All season tire in the UK? They are a tire that isn't a great summer performer, but ok, and in winter they can be ok, not great in snow. I live in a winter climate, but find with traffic being what it is when it snows, I don't get up to any high rate of speed anyhow, and have gotten by with All Seasons. I SHOULD have Winter tires if I did any commuting, but most of my work week the car isn't going anywhere, it is sitting. Also, in Southern Ontario where I am, the snow removal and salt trucks have the roads to bare pavement in about 12 hours after a snow on all major routes.

IN the UK, I would think you would wear out winter tires on the pavement for the amount of snow you get, but since I am not there, I cannot comment. I just know in Quebec, it is law to have Winter tires...and I suspect it will be law here too. Because god knows some people cannot drive on dry pavement, but somehow passing laws that fit everyone will allow the pol's to think they have done all they can. I have been driving 25 years, and I have never left the road in the winter. Got stuck a few times yes...but that was in drives or parking lots. So take it from someone who LIVES in a winter clime, winter tires are a great asset, but for one or two snows a year; I would get by with an all season tire if it was available.

When i passed my driving test over here that was one thing i failed on during multiple choice.. pavement in UK means "Sidewalk" :D

The question i had was something like "what do you do if you have 2 wheels on the pavement"? Get them off there and back on the road! Epic fail LOL

[Sonic]

Couldn't agree more. It's always been my opinion that things like having a 5 star NCAP rating, ABS, EBD, ASR/TC and ESP make people a bit lazy about driving. I suspect there were some people this morning who felt that traction control, ASR/TC and if they had it 4wd would keep them on the road.

What do you think of some suggestions that people should have to be tested on their driving regularly rather than just once as it is now?

Hmmm. The question of re-testing/assessment is tricky. There would of course be benefits but the logistics would be very difficult to manage. As it is there is between a 6 and 10 week wait for a driving test as it is, add in 1 million re-tests a year and the system is jammed.

[Daniel]

I guess they don't sell an All season tire in the UK? They are a tire that isn't a great summer performer, but ok, and in winter they can be ok, not great in snow. I live in a winter climate, but find with traffic being what it is when it snows, I don't get up to any high rate of speed anyhow, and have gotten by with All Seasons. I SHOULD have Winter tires if I did any commuting, but most of my work week the car isn't going anywhere, it is sitting. Also, in Southern Ontario where I am, the snow removal and salt trucks have the roads to bare pavement in about 12 hours after a snow on all major routes.

IN the UK, I would think you would wear out winter tires on the pavement for the amount of snow you get, but since I am not there, I cannot comment. I just know in Quebec, it is law to have Winter tires...and I suspect it will be law here too. Because god knows some people cannot drive on dry pavement, but somehow passing laws that fit everyone will allow the pol's to think they have done all they can. I have been driving 25 years, and I have never left the road in the winter. Got stuck a few times yes...but that was in drives or parking lots. So take it from someone who LIVES in a winter clime, winter tires are a great asset, but for one or two snows a year; I would get by with an all season tire if it was available.
They do sell All Season tyres here in the UK but the vast majority of tyres sold are summer tyres. If people were buying All Season tyres I could certainly understand not buying winter tyres but like I said most people have summer tyres and when it gets snowy they're as near as useless.

I suspect Hazell has probably got All Seasons on her Range Rover hence her smugness :p

Tbh if I was there I wouldn't bother taking my 500 on the road because the tyres it's got on it are very much geared towards summer driving which was why I bought some steelies to put some winter tyres on when I can afford it!

[Hazell B]

I suspect Hazell has probably got All Seasons on her Range Rover hence her smugness :p



No just All Seasons, but All Terrain.
£250.00 the lot, plus VAT.

It's who you know ;)

[Daniel]

No just All Seasons, but All Terrain.
£250.00 the lot, plus VAT.

It's who you know ;)
Well of course a 4wd tyre is going to be all terrain. You're not using it as a Chelsea tractor so it was kind of a given they'd be AT tyres ;)

[Hazell B]

Not at all.

You'd be shocked at the utter rubbish sold as AT and the quality of 'standard' (to the vehicle) tyres.
Most wouldn't get you out of a puddle if truth be told. That's why I'm often called on to get other Range Rovers out of auction fields.

[janneppi]

A friend of mine bought a car when he was working in US and got some all weather tires on that thing, he had them on when he moved back to Finland. i wouldn't like to drive them here compared to the studded Nokian's I use, but I think they'd be ok in UK type weather.
Getting a chance to practice on snowy or icy surface is IMO a very good thing, we had that in driving school. Nowadays I drive to a nearby industrial area to do some braking and swerving tests on a street with large parking areas on both sides.

[Fred Basset]

All 4wheel drive tyres are not imo all terrain. I have "all season" on mine and i wouldn't ever go thru fields or woods in it

[donKey jote]

Had great fun this morning with my winter tyres... dodging all the eejuts in all-season or summer tyres doing about 20kmh, and waiting patiently for the donkeys to try and get started at the traffic lights before they changed back to red :p : :s
If you don't have the appropriate tyres for the road conditions, stay at home or use public transport! :devil:
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[Robinho]

most people are too scared, too inexperienced or too stupid for all weather/winter or whatever tyres to make much difference. if people first learned how to control a car with next to no grip it would make no end of difference.

i do agree that tyres would make a difference then, as a lot of tyres simply aren't suitable to snow/ice as soon as there is any gradient the world ends, but peoples incompetence helps here - simply spinning wheels wildly or trying to rely on driver aids (if you can turn your traction control off in the snow and ice as it can't cope with it and will hinder more thna help, unless it has a snow and ice setting.

i admit my tyres aren't all that suitable, they are toyo t1r's,, which are great in the wet, dry, warm and ok in the cold, but give them snow and the pattern is not ideal, but as soon as there is a sniff of snow in the air i'll try to get out somewhere quiet and practice - a bit of air out of the tyres and a sensible head should be enough to combat most of what we get in the UK, unless you live in the highlands or the middle of nowhere (in which case your likely to have a 4wd anyway) more tyres are an unecessary expense IMO, i certainly couldn't afford them atm, although if we get 2 or 3 proper snow events a year then maybe i'll change

[Mark in Oshawa]

You Brits at least will have the discussion. I cant count the number of US states that see a couple of snow/ice storms a year where everything stops dead when winter hits....

There is a joke about the redneck snow removal system. Pray for a sunny day and 6 hours ......and in places like Georgia and most of the Carolinas and Tenneseee that is true...

[Daniel]

Drove through some very light snow and slush today and the Potenza's on the 500 haven't been too bad but still not the most confidence inspiring experience.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Drove through some very light snow and slush today and the Potenza's on the 500 haven't been too bad but still not the most confidence inspiring experience.

I had Potenza's on my old Rx-7. Worst tires I ever had in the rain or snow.....

[Daniel]

I had Potenza's on my old Rx-7. Worst tires I ever had in the rain or snow.....
Well 2 weeks later and here we are, more snow and more cars either crawling along, stuck or abandoned. Someone in a BMW almost came down the road backwards in only half an inch of snow and then about half an hour later with another half an inch on top someone in a FWD car DID come down backwards and almost hit our Fiat.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well 2 weeks later and here we are, more snow and more cars either crawling along, stuck or abandoned. Someone in a BMW almost came down the road backwards in only half an inch of snow and then about half an hour later with another half an inch on top someone in a FWD car DID come down backwards and almost hit our Fiat.
10 cms of snow up north on the 2nd. I was at my mom-in-laws. My wife's car has just all season tires. I went up to town to get the morning paper,and a coffee. The roads were ploughed, with a sand mix tossed on since at -20 c salt wont work. Drove the speed limit, no issues, just a hair careful because of stopping distances and cornering needing to be taken in mind.

A lot of what you are enduring Daniel is the fact no jurisdiction there has the budget to maintain the roads in winter. Tires help but the fact is snow tires don't work great on glare ice, which is what you get when no salt is used and the snow packs down.

[Daniel]

there is plenty of grit on the road, the snow just fell down and covered it.

[Hazell B]

They're getting stuck in a few mm of snow in towns :rotflmao:

I've been playing in my vehicle in our eight(ish) inches of snow and it's been brilliant. Seriously, I shake my head in pity at what this country has become with a scattering of snow and millions of crap drivers.

[GridGirl]

I managed to drive home from work in 40 minutes as per usual although much of that was due to fewer cars bring on the road. Every time I got to a hill the car infront of me snaked it's way up. It was getting me worried untill I just powered up. :s As said before, I think improved driving skills would help far more than winter tyres.

[Mark in Oshawa]

there is plenty of grit on the road, the snow just fell down and covered it.

The grit needs to be ON top. Not just grit either, sand or salt. If the sanders and plows are not out on the roads here, we have similar issues. You guys are just not equipped with the infrastructure to handle a lot of snow....

[Daniel]

The grit needs to be ON top. Not just grit either, sand or salt. If the sanders and plows are not out on the roads here, we have similar issues. You guys are just not equipped with the infrastructure to handle a lot of snow....
Bear in mind that I'm talking about sidestreets here Mark, it's simply not cost effective to have enough gritters out to be gritting all the sidestreets whilst it's snowing.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Bear in mind that I'm talking about sidestreets here Mark, it's simply not cost effective to have enough gritters out to be gritting all the sidestreets whilst it's snowing.

They do it here as fast as they can. The city I live in has clear roads within 12 hours of the last snowflake...that is ALL the roads. That said, they have to do that here or we would be in trouble some winter's. You are right of course, in the UK it isn't doable with the money and resources available. That tho is my point. You guys have to do what they do in the US south. Figure it is god's problem. He gave it to you, he can take it away....

[Daniel]

They're getting stuck in a few mm of snow in towns :rotflmao:

I've been playing in my vehicle in our eight(ish) inches of snow and it's been brilliant. Seriously, I shake my head in pity at what this country has become with a scattering of snow and millions of crap drivers.
Well it's quite a few inches here Hazell. Don't be a silly northerner who exaggerates things to make people in the South look soft or something :)

There was a guy on BBC news 24 who owned a little tyre shop somewhere in Yorkshire saying that a lot of 4wd owners have been coming in asking for better tyres because the ones on their cars are too biased towards the road. Sure driving skill helps but when you're driving on ice and snow the laws of phsyics come into play and summer tyres suck.

Mark in Oshawa has all season tyres which are kind of a halfway house between summer and winter tyres so they're not totally hopeless in the snow and ice. The ones Hazell has on are probably all weather tyres too which is why along with the 4wd you're getting along just fine.

Summer tyre
http://www.megamodo.com/images/vredestein/mm_06_sportrac3_detail_3.jpg

All weather tyres
http://banden.paginamarkt.nl/foto/2009/08/18/michelin_xt2.jpg

Winter tyres
http://www.gumija.lv/veikals/images/Vredestein_snowtrac3.jpg

There are clear and easy to spot difference between the tyres which is why they perform differently and better in their respective environments but whatever.........

[Daniel]

They do it here as fast as they can. The city I live in has clear roads within 12 hours of the last snowflake...that is ALL the roads. That said, they have to do that here or we would be in trouble some winter's. You are right of course, in the UK it isn't doable with the money and resources available. That tho is my point. You guys have to do what they do in the US south. Figure it is god's problem. He gave it to you, he can take it away....

Exactly. There was some dozey biznitch in Edinburgh on the TV today saying that it was the counties fault that she'd crashed her VW into a bollard because .... well you know.

Gridgirl's attitude is typical of that of 99.99% of Brits which is "I got home alright so it must be OK and winter rubber must be a waste of money"

[Hazell B]

Don't be a silly northerner who exaggerates things to make people in the South look soft or something :)



Exactly which part of my post mentioned north and south? :rolleyes:

[Daniel]

Exactly which part of my post mentioned north and south? :rolleyes:
It's just understood Hazell :)

[GridGirl]

I'm not saying winter tyres are a waste of money. I think that the problems would be reduced to a greater extent if everyone knew how to drive in the snow properly. Just look at the amount of people who try and set off in first gear spinning the wheels like crazy and revving up the engine. If I was given a pound everytime I saw people using the wrong gears in conditions like these I'd be able to buy all forum members their own set of winter tyres. :p

[Hazell B]

As said before, I think improved driving skills would help far more than winter tyres.

You'd see the huge difference if you had winter tyres, but you're spot on when you say driving skills are the first (and biggest) step to getting about in ice or snow. Skill has to be 70% of it, tyres the rest I guess.

Not saying I'm a skillful driver more than anyone else, it's just that I had motorbikes and horses for years, so I just know the surface dangers better after being so exposed to danger before driving a large tin box. If I hadn't learned fast on bikes, I'd have a few more scars than I do now :p : The horses in snow taught me to easily feel packed snow to ice, etc, as horses make very tough stilts under their hooves in snow - then simply fall over! My mare did it today just in the field. Bloody funny when you're watching, not so funny when you're under them.

[Hazell B]

It's just understood Hazell :)


Not by me, it isn't.

I was talking about dunces in the town where I live and York, actually.

[christophulus]

People definitely need more knowledge of snow driving. The road outside my flat was gridlocked all day - perfectly clear but full of people in first gear using a billion revs to get nowhere. Going to be great tomorrow when it hasn't been gritted :s

[Tomi]

I'm not saying winter tyres are a waste of money. I think that the problems would be reduced to a greater extent if everyone knew how to drive in the snow properly. :p

I think both are important, every year the first situations comes always as surprise.

[Langdale Forest]

Winter tyres would really be usefull in the uk because we have had snow for over 3 weeks snow.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Winter tyres would really be usefull in the uk because we have had snow for over 3 weeks snow.
So spend a few hundred quid for tires that may not see snow for the next two winters.....there is the quandary. Hey, I thought global warming was going to make snowfall in the UK and Western Europe a moot point?

[Langdale Forest]

The big problem is that almost all two wheel-drive cars are useless in the snow.

[GridGirl]

Equally there are those with 4wd that think they are invincible. After all, having a 4wd won't help you stop any better. One of my mates got a Range Rover on Saturday. I fully expect him to prang it before the snow melts purely because I think it will go to his head.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The big problem is that almost all two wheel-drive cars are useless in the snow.

BS. I live in a nation with winters WORSE than you lot deal with and I drove an Rx-7 with all season tires for 5 years and only got stuck once.....

[Hazell B]

Having a 4x4 doesn't help you stop, but having the right tyres on does ;)

Ask the new Range Rover driver where his button is to make it 4 wheel drive. It's hillarious watching them look for it that first time ......

[Langdale Forest]

Range Rovers are always 4 wheel drive.

[GridGirl]

The Range Rover in question was purchased off my mates dad. It's never seen anything but city traffic and motorways. I don't expect it will have the right tyres on it Hazel but you can always live in hope. :)

[Langdale Forest]

Range Rovers are probably one of the best 4x4s in the world, as well as a luxury car.

[Drew]

BS. I live in a nation with winters WORSE than you lot deal with and I drove an Rx-7 with all season tires for 5 years and only got stuck once.....

That's the thing Mark, Canada is fully prepared for snow, whereas the UK isn't and definitely not my part.

This year was the first time i've ever driven on snow or ice and I had no idea what it was like. If snowy and ice cold winters are the future and not just a one off, then people will have to start thinking about all weather tyres and how to deal with the snow and ice and the authorities will have to think about planning better for snow. For example some a$$hole was tailgating me on an icy country lane, if I crash you'll crash into me, moron.

[Langdale Forest]

People snipe at 4x4s in the UK. This can lead to 'extreme' personal attacks.

[Hazell B]

Range Rovers are always 4 wheel drive.

That's the point :rolleyes:

Thing is, loads of people who buy them then spend ages looking for the button or switch to 4x4. The other day a friend came to my yard in stitches as my partner's boss had just brought him a Freelander to fix. It seems he thought it had been made wrong, as it had no gear stick for getting in to four wheel drive. He'd owned it three months ......

Also, my MOT man tested my brakes like a two wheel drive (and shockingly they passed!) on a rolling road with the hand brake on TWO YEARS RUNNING. He's never gotten to grips with some vehicles being just 4, never 2, wheel drive.

[Langdale Forest]

Freelanders are good cars. Good MPG and low Co2.

[Daniel]

So spend a few hundred quid for tires that may not see snow for the next two winters.....there is the quandary. Hey, I thought global warming was going to make snowfall in the UK and Western Europe a moot point?

But Mark, that's not the point. It's not as if whilst the winter tyres are on the summer tyres are decaying somewhere AND even if it never snows there's still the added bonus of the extra grip in the cooler weather that winter tyres give. Who on here would argue that more grip is bad?


Having a 4x4 doesn't help you stop, but having the right tyres on does ;)

Ask the new Range Rover driver where his button is to make it 4 wheel drive. It's hillarious watching them look for it that first time ......

:laugh: You're a cruel woman Hazell :p You're very right about 4wd's not stopping any better than 2wd cars too, problem is it lulls the unsuspecting idiot (who should be better educated I might add!) into thinking the car has more grip which simply isn't true

[Brown, Jon Brow]

This is only my second winter of driving where we have had snow and ice. Because of my inexperience I decided to do some small tests on a quiet car park near my house and I found it quite alarming how little stopping grip you have. It's just a pedal full of ABS. If only the jerk in the white van who was tailgating me this morning knew this! :mad:

[AndyRAC]

The amount of people in first gear and revving away is simply unbelievable.

[Mark in Oshawa]

This is only my second winter of driving where we have had snow and ice. Because of my inexperience I decided to do some small tests on a quiet car park near my house and I found it quite alarming how little stopping grip you have. It's just a pedal full of ABS. If only the jerk in the white van who was tailgating me this morning knew this! :mad:

Jon, just remember give lots of room, and be gentle with every change in momentum. That is braking, accelerating and turning. Also, don't be afraid to to get sideways. It is too bad ABS interferes with left foot braking on ice. I have used it more than once to get the tail of the car to come around to point me in a direction more useful.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The amount of people in first gear and revving away is simply unbelievable.

It just creates ice, but people here never seem to get that either, and we get enough snow you would think they would know better.

[Tomi]

It is too bad ABS interferes with left foot braking on ice. I have used it more than once to get the tail of the car to come around to point me in a direction more useful.

better to use scandinavian flicks instead of lfb.

[Easy Drifter]

Not only do 4 wheel drive not stop any better but they don't turn any better.
I think I have mentioned it before but up here in Ont. snow belt most people do know how to drive in the snow, no matter wether it is 4 wheel drive or two. Engine over drive wheels usually gives a little better traction for starting in snow and on hills.
What we do get are thousands of people from the GTA, where they do not get that much white stuff, coming skiing and snowmobiling every weekend. They tend to crash more often and compared to the number of 4 wheel drive on the road a far larger percentage end up crashing.
By no means are all drivers from southern Ont. poor in the snow but many are.
My ex grew up in Toronto and she was the Ont. Ice Racing champ one year!
By the way we have had one day since Christmas when it didn't snow.
I really should replace my 3/4 warn all weather tires.

[Jag_Warrior]

There was a report on the news tonight that said this might be the worst winter in 100 years in the UK. I'm not sure if they meant temperatures or snow fall or both. So what's it like over there?

[Mark in Oshawa]

better to use scandinavian flicks instead of lfb.

I defer to you on that Tomi, but with front wheel drive cars when I Ice raced, it was the way I could get the tail out.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Not only do 4 wheel drive not stop any better but they don't turn any better.
I think I have mentioned it before but up here in Ont. snow belt most people do know how to drive in the snow, no matter wether it is 4 wheel drive or two. Engine over drive wheels usually gives a little better traction for starting in snow and on hills.
What we do get are thousands of people from the GTA, where they do not get that much white stuff, coming skiing and snowmobiling every weekend. They tend to crash more often and compared to the number of 4 wheel drive on the road a far larger percentage end up crashing.
By no means are all drivers from southern Ont. poor in the snow but many are.
My ex grew up in Toronto and she was the Ont. Ice Racing champ one year!
By the way we have had one day since Christmas when it didn't snow.
I really should replace my 3/4 warn all weather tires.

Drifter, I am one of those silly people that used to come up there a bit. Now I am over by Coboconk on the weekends.....and it isn't quite that bad over there. I have managed so far with all seasons, but then again, If I lived up there, I would have the snows....

[Langdale Forest]

There was a report on the news tonight that said this might be the worst winter in 100 years in the UK. I'm not sure if they meant temperatures or snow fall or both. So what's it like over there?

Quite bad near the North York Moors. roads over the high ground closed/inpassible snow has been around for over 3 weeks now.

Just before christmas the temperature was -8c.

[DexDexter]

LOL!

In answer to the thread - no. Better driving style would be a much better investment than buying tires for different seasons. Back in Feb when we had the worst snow in 18 years I was out working (driving instructor) teaching my clients an invaluable lesson in car control and winter driving preparations. The lessons were good fun, despite their initial misgivings and I bet they are all very pleased they had the practise now the snow is even worse.

If you have freezing temperatures, you should have winter tires. Driving with summer tires in icy conditions is just plain stupid. Over here people use studded tires and it's amazing how well the traffic flows even in snowfall. That's why it's always a bit amusing to see pictures from the US or UK where everything stops because there is snow on the roads.

[Dave B]

I've just come from B&Q (stocking up on gravel and sand). At 8am the car park was an irresistable blank canvas - not that I condone handbrake or J-turns you understand ;)

On the way I must have seen at least a dozen cars with no lights on, many more with ice and snow covering the lights, and a good handful where the driver had cleared their front windscreen and nothing else. And that's before we even get started on driving standards...

[GridGirl]

When it snowed last February my brother heard his car alarm going off and looked out the window to find a neighbour had reversed down the street not having cleared her rear windscreen and had eventually managed to reverse into his car. It was a good job it was a woman. I think my brother may have punched a bloke because he was so mad.

[Daniel]

I've just come from B&Q (stocking up on gravel and sand). At 8am the car park was an irresistable blank canvas - not that I condone handbrake or J-turns you understand ;)

On the way I must have seen at least a dozen cars with no lights on, many more with ice and snow covering the lights, and a good handful where the driver had cleared their front windscreen and nothing else. And that's before we even get started on driving standards...

I just don't get people sometimes :crazy:

We've got the headlights on permanently on both of our cars regardless of whether it's winter or summer.

[DexDexter]

I just don't get people sometimes :crazy:

We've got the headlights on permanently on both of our cars regardless of whether it's winter or summer.

I once rented a car in Spain and was stopped by the police because I had the lights on in daylight :) . Over here cars have lights on automatically and it's an offence to not have them on.

[Daniel]

I once rented a car in Spain and was stopped by the police because I had the lights on in daylight :) . Over here cars have lights on automatically and it's an offence to not have them on.
Yeah I remember from my two trips to Finland for the rally :)

I drive with my lights on all the time here as well and my car also has DRL's on it and the amount of people who flash you to tell you either that you've got your lights on or your foglights is annoying.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~fenix1983/Files/DRL.jpg

[driveace]

To all the Finnish persons on here "Can you still get KOMETA TYRES" We used to have them for the Hankki Rally
If so can you get me the address as I lost my Kometa tyres hat,and would love another

[Mark]

Took me three and a half hours to get to work this morning. Usually takes around 90 minutes.

Crawling along in Lane 1 at 30mph was slow enough, but then the A1 was closed at Scotch Corner, which didn't help matters!

[Tomi]

To all the Finnish persons on here "Can you still get KOMETA TYRES" We used to have them for the Hankki Rally
If so can you get me the address as I lost my Kometa tyres hat,and would love another

I think you still can get "kometa" or "tikka" studds, but they are not the same they used to be, only the center is hard steel anymore the rest aluminium, when was you here? Its sad but Hankiralli is not the same it used to be either, mainly because of mild winters lately.

[edv]

Of course you should have winter snow tires if there is snow!
It is not expensive, since your summer tires will last much longer before needing replacement.
You are much less likely to cause an accident, and I am sure everyone has a $250 or $500 or more insurance deductible.
I swap out my wife's tires at the first whiff of winter, and she definitely feels much more secure about it.

There's no stopping the march of the idiots, though, no matter where you live!

[Hazell B]

So what's it like over there?

Not as bad as the TV reports have made it sound, typically.

We usually get maybe two inches of snow on my land once or twice each winter and it lasts a week at the most. This year it's been 8ish inches that's been the type that goes to ice the moment you stand on it and it's lasted over a week solidly - no defrosting at all. When more has fallen it doesn't get deeper, just compacts to hard white ice.
The result is that here (and for twenty or so miles around at least) we have packed snow on some roads that acts like a skid pan and however hard I try to lift it with a shovel it just stays there. Every car passing squashes it harder. I even put salt down at the back of my home to stop cars skidding and it just sat there on the surface :p :

It was 3 degrees at best this week, on the south face of my covered barn area. That means probably out in the open has been an air temp of -1 or worse during the day. No wind though, so it's felt perfectly warm and pleasant if you're dressed right. I love it :up:

[driveace]

Tomi,,,I was there for the Hankki Rally in 1980,with the Henri Toivonen RAC car KWT556V,you will know it as NUG 327V.
But for the RAC and Hankki Rally it ran as KWT,for Peter Clarke, Atso Aho was the navigator and we ran out ot the Toivonens garage in Helsinki.Memory tells me it was an underground garage under some shops.
Whilst there Harri Toivonen ,and myself went to pick up Harri,s rally car,the Ex Henri Avenger with a 2 litre Brazilian block motor in it,from a body repair shop,about 30 miles outside Helsinki.The ride back with Harri in thick snow ,on Kometa ,s was a ride to cherish.I have NEVER been driven as fast on snow in my life.The reason we went to pick up the car was due to the fact ,that Pauli was on holiday,and Harri did a rally whilst he was away and damaged the Avenger,so he wanted it repaired VERY QUICKLY so Pauli did,nt know.Hopefully Harri is now fully recovered after his hospitalization last year
IF you can get me a Kometa hat I would be very grateful.

[Tomi]

Tomi,,,I was there for the Hankki Rally in 1980,with the Henri Toivonen RAC car KWT556V,you will know it as NUG 327V.
But for the RAC and Hankki Rally it ran as KWT,for Peter Clarke, Atso Aho was the navigator and we ran out ot the Toivonens garage in Helsinki.Memory tells me it was an underground garage under some shops.
Whilst there Harri Toivonen ,and myself went to pick up Harri,s rally car,the Ex Henri Avenger with a 2 litre Brazilian block motor in it,from a body repair shop,about 30 miles outside Helsinki.The ride back with Harri in thick snow ,on Kometa ,s was a ride to cherish.I have NEVER been driven as fast on snow in my life.The reason we went to pick up the car was due to the fact ,that Pauli was on holiday,and Harri did a rally whilst he was away and damaged the Avenger,so he wanted it repaired VERY QUICKLY so Pauli did,nt know.Hopefully Harri is now fully recovered after his hospitalization last year
IF you can get me a Kometa hat I would be very grateful.

Ahaa ok, i see, was the garage at the same place their car shop was in center of Helsinki? Guess what, that same ex. Henri Avenger is the very first rallycar i have been sitting in, not driven by Henkka but the car was same. Dont know Harri, but i heard from somewhere that he is teaching youngsters to drive on track. Henkka i knew, and from that bunch i still see Juha Piironen now and then. I try to find you the hat :)

[Mark]

I know one person on this forum, apart from me, who doesn't have winter tyres ;)

[Daniel]

I know one person on this forum, apart from me, who doesn't have winter tyres ;)
Yes but Mark, when it snows or is cold (-6 today) my car is staying put because I'm not working :) When I'm working again winter tyres are one of the first things I'll buy. Tyres don't matter when your car is standing still.

[DexDexter]

Yes but Mark, when it snows or is cold (-6 today) my car is staying put because I'm not working :) When I'm working again winter tyres are one of the first things I'll buy. Tyres don't matter when your car is standing still.

A very wise decision. :up:

[Mark in Oshawa]

Yes but Mark, when it snows or is cold (-6 today) my car is staying put because I'm not working :) When I'm working again winter tyres are one of the first things I'll buy. Tyres don't matter when your car is standing still.

Daniel, All I can say if you never see snow after this week, then you will chew those winter tires up. You need more than a week here or there to justify the extra set, the extra rims and taking them on and off every spring and fall.

A good all season radial SHOULD be enough to get buy if you really careful.

[Sonic]

Ok so its time to put my money where my mouth is. We've had a reasonably heavy snow fall over night (15cm's) and I'm going out for a drive. I say "winter tires? Pah! Silly soft stuff!" Lets see if I'm right. :D

[Dave B]

Three and a half hours to do a 4 mile journey yesterday, partly down to the dump of snow that suddenly came from nowhere, partly down to the already frozen roads upon which it fell, and a great part down to the tittish driving standards we seem to tolerate.

The part when a bus came the other way with it's front wheels locked up and pointing towards us was particularly memorable for all the wrong reasons.

If that chain email doing the rounds yesterday had been for blokes instead of women, my Facebook status would have been "brown" ;)

[BeansBeansBeans]

I got the train and walked home. Couldn't be bothered with the roads!

[Easy Drifter]

Dearie me.
I think I will open a snowmobile dealership in London. :D :eek:

[Daniel]

I wouldn't be in favour of winter tyres being used in the UK I'm afraid. The reason being because I can't be bothered to change 4 wheels on the car, for all the white stuff to be gone 2 days later. If its that bad and the local council aren't gritting the roads, then I 'll work from home thanks.

Watching a bloke being towed on a dinner tray by his mate in his Ford Focus, only to have his foot run over was a hilarious experience for me yesterday.. I did laugh out loud during the screams of agony billowing from this fools mouth, which in hindsight I'm not proud of.. I did slip on my arse 5 minutes later however, so karma did issue a justified swipe in my direction for my cruel mocking of the injured simpleton.. :p :)
Damn I hate repeating myself but anyway.

They're not just snow tyres, they've also got a softer compound which works better at single digit temperatures and being an F1 fan I'm sure you know that the colder it gets the harder your rubber gets and the less grip you have. Remember last f1 season with some teams not being able to get enough heat into tyres or in some cases having too much heat? :mark:

The only reason you'd need to take the tyres off would be if it were unseasonably warm.

[Daniel]

Daniel, All I can say if you never see snow after this week, then you will chew those winter tires up. You need more than a week here or there to justify the extra set, the extra rims and taking them on and off every spring and fall.

A good all season radial SHOULD be enough to get buy if you really careful.

If I were to only have one set of wheels I would just go for all weathers but I quite like the grip in the summer from the tyres I've got and I like the idea of being able to get somewhere in a bit of snow if need be.

[Daniel]

Do they cost more than 80 quid a corner? If they do, then I'm happy with my present ones.. :)
Depends what size you're in need of.

For the 500 they're about £50 a corner

http://www.camskill.co.uk/products.php?plid=m11b0s712p0

For the Subaru about £55-60 a corner

http://www.camskill.co.uk/products.php?plid=m11b0s704p0

[Mark]

10C Southerners turn on the heating. People in Newcastle plant their gardens.
5C Southerners shiver uncontrollably. People in Newcastle sunbathe.
0C Southern cars will not start. People in Newcastle drive with the windows down.
-5C Southerners wear coats, gloves and wool hats.
People in Newcastle throw on a T-shirt (girls start wearing mini skirts.)
-10C Southerners begin to evacuate. People in Newcastle go swimming in the North Sea.
-15C Southern landlords turn up the heat. People in Newcastle have the last barbecue before it gets cold.
-30C Southerners cease to exist. People in Newcastle throw on a lightweight jacket.
-60C Polar bears wonder if it's worth it. Boy scouts in Newcastle start wearing long trousers.
-75C Santa Claus abandons the North Pole. People in Newcastle put on their long johns.
-115C Alcohol freezes. People in Newcastle become frustrated because the pubs are shut.
-182C Microbial life starts to disappear. The cows on Newcastle Town Moor complain about vets with cold hands.
-273C All atomic motion stops. People in Newcastle start to stamp their feet and blow on their hands.
-300C Hell freezes over. Sunderland qualify for Europe.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I got caught out my the same road junction for the second time last night. Very fortunate that there was no cars around or I could have been T-boned.

[Tomi]

lol, reminds me of costa del sol, no matter how cold it is, brittons wear always shorts.

[Tomi]

Plus socks with sandals and the Sun newspaper under the arm, complaining that the place is full of foreigners.. :p

lol, funny especially the foreigners part.

[Daniel]

lol, funny especially the foreigners part.
Brits are a funny breed Tomi. It's usually the ones who live in Spain or France who complain about Britain being full of foreigners :D

[Mark]

Brits are a funny breed Tomi. It's usually the ones who live in Spain or France who complain about Britain being full of foreigners :D

I thought that was just the ones who lived in America? ;)

[Tomi]

Brits are a funny breed Tomi. It's usually the ones who live in Spain or France who complain about Britain being full of foreigners :D
Yes i have heard, too many aussies there ;)

[Sonic]

Well I'm back in one bit from my snowy drive. Any problems? Nope. Less grip? Yes. But not to the extent that i'd fork out for winter boots for my motors when using engine braking etc gets me from a to b safely.

[DexDexter]

I think British people in general are amongst some of the rudest in the world from my own personal experience. Nobody says hello, customer service is none existant etc etc. Everyone seems much friendlier abroad.. :p

I do find we are less touchy though, and are able to take the p!ss out of ourselves, notably through our comedy mainly. Thats one thing about these forums I suppose, you notice how different other cultures are.. :)

Still not sold on the winter tyres though... ;)

I agree with that, British comedy is best in the world. Americans, for example, take themselves so seriously that IMO they just can't produce real good comedy. Back to the topic: Don't drive with summer tires in the snow, that's mightily dangerous.

[Hazell B]

0C Southern cars will not start. People in Newcastle drive with the windows down.


That was me this morning :up:

Had a passenger in for a mere two miles and when it came time to drop him off, his door had frozen shut. Poor thing had to climb over me driver's seat and get out that way, while I tutted about boots on my walnut (they only wiped off some dust, to be fair) and grumbled about the electric windows freezing down.

It's minus 5 at best today (we have a thermometer that gives high and low) and even the chickens gave in and went indoors once they'd realised the snow was deeper than they are :p :

[Langdale Forest]

I think the UK should encourage people to buy 4x4s in rural areas (like North Yorkshire), because the roads around here are an absolute joke in the winter for people with 2WD cars.

Who cars about global warming because it isn't even happening?

[BeansBeansBeans]

Who cars about global warming because it isn't even happening?

What makes you say that?

[Mark]

They are saying that is within 'normal expected variation'

[Hazell B]

So if it's normal and expected, why the huge numbers not working, travelling or coping?

For the record (and the last ruddy time!!!!!) Global Warming doesn't mean anything to do with heat :mark:

[Sonic]

So if it's normal and expected, why the huge numbers not working, travelling or coping?

For the record (and the last ruddy time!!!!!) Global Warming doesn't mean anything to do with heat :mark:

Last time? Ooooh. :(

[Daniel]

So if it's normal and expected, why the huge numbers not working, travelling or coping?

For the record (and the last ruddy time!!!!!) Global Warming doesn't mean anything to do with heat :mark:
People will start to understand that Global Warming isn't meant to purely give more warmth when they understand that Winter tyres aren't just for snow.

[Tomi]

People will start to understand that Global Warming isn't meant to purely give more warmth when they understand that Winter tyres aren't just for snow.

Swimming cap is also not only for swimming, its easier to pick up the drivers brain from the car floor, after driving accident on snow with summer tyres, if he is wearing a swimming cap.

[Ian The Poet]

Apparently having winter tyres and then changing to summer/normal tyres is not cost effective. ;)

[Daniel]

Swimming cap is also not only for swimming, its easier to pick up the drivers brain from the car floor, after driving accident on snow with summer tyres, if he is wearing a swimming cap.
Kind of like a helmet is not to protect a motorcyclists head, but to keep their brains from making a mess of the road? :erm:

[Daniel]

Apparently having winter tyres and then changing to summer/normal tyres is not cost effective. ;)
Does not compute?

[Tomi]

Kind of like a helmet is not to protect a motorcyclists head, but to keep their brains from making a mess of the road? :erm:

same idea, but this is for people with not so strong neck.

[Hazell B]

It pretty much apys for itself if it saves your life .... and you family's ;)

[donKey jote]

Daniel, All I can say if you never see snow after this week, then you will chew those winter tires up. You need more than a week here or there to justify the extra set, the extra rims and taking them on and off every spring and fall.

A good all season radial SHOULD be enough to get buy if you really careful.

-Summer tires wear faster than winter tires at low temperatures

-Take them on and off when you need them... 10 minutes :)

-All season are neither here nor there, don't let "M&S" fool you... they´re not as good as proper summer tires in "summer" or proper winter tyres in "winter", so you´d need to be careful all year round :p :


Do they cost more than 80 quid a corner? If they do, then I'm happy with my present ones.. :)
how much does a small prang cost? How much would your insurance premiums increase?



I wear winters roughly between November and April, even though this year is the first in a decade I´ve seen more than 3-4 days of snow... to quote wotsisname: "it's the temperature, stoopid!" :p :

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[Langdale Forest]

Apparently having winter tyres and then changing to summer/normal tyres is not cost effective. ;)


????

Because you have to buy 4 more tyres

[Mark in Oshawa]

-Summer tires wear faster than winter tires at low temperatures

-Take them on and off when you need them... 10 minutes :)

-All season are neither here nor there, don't let "M&S" fool you... they´re not as good as proper summer tires in "summer" or proper winter tyres in "winter", so you´d need to be careful all year round :p :


how much does a small prang cost? How much would your insurance premiums increase?



I wear winters roughly between November and April, even though this year is the first in a decade I´ve seen more than 3-4 days of snow... to quote wotsisname: "it's the temperature, stoopid!" :p :

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

Donkey, I think "all season" tires sold here in Canada are a far more capable tire in snow and the wet than maybe what is available in the UK. I will defer to you, but most tires sold in Canada are all season radials. For 90% of the driving people do here, they are safe tires. I don't see the point in having winter or "snow" tires in a climate where you may not see a flake of snow some winters. Listen, you and I probably see simliar winters, with you in Germany and I here. Snow tires do make sense here. Storage, the extra set of rims, and the changing them back and forth (takes longer when you do it yourself with a jack and wrench) are worth it for the Canadian winter. In Quebec, it is LAW if you live there you must have snow tires.

I get around alright with just All seasons. I have had more than few cars and yet to have put snow's on only because my part of the province doesn't see the snow that other parts get. It is a good idea, but in the UK? Unless I was in Scotland where I know I would see snow more than 5 days a year, I would'nt bother.

[DexDexter]

I'm listening to Radio Five Live and they said that last night the temperature dropped to -21 in Highlands, that's cold even for us. How are you Britts coping since your houses are drafty and not so warm??

[Daniel]

I'm listening to Radio Five Live and they said that last night the temperature dropped to -21 in Highlands, that's cold even for us. How are you Britts coping since your houses are drafty and not so warm??
Yeah it's pretty cold. -9 here at the moment and we're right near the coast!

My cars temperature sensor doesn't seem to be located in the best place..... it was about -1 outside when I took these photos but the car says it's 11 degrees c :mark:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~fenix1983/Files/Warm.jpg

http://members.iinet.net.au/~fenix1983/Files/Warm1.jpg

We seem to have lost both of our ice scrapers somehow this morning so had to deice Caroline's car with neat washer fluid and a lunchbox lid :p

[Mark]

It was -12 here this morning and us Brits just aren't used to it. Luckily I own a fairly new house so not so bad.. :)

Our house is just cold, being an end terrace most of our walls are outside walls, with little or no cavity wall insulation :( .

[Daniel]

Our house is just cold, being an end terrace most of our walls are outside walls, with little or no cavity wall insulation :( .
You should be able to get a grant for cavity wall insulation non?

[GridGirl]

My mum got a grant for cavity wall insulation. She only had to pay about £150 towards it herself. :)

Back to the tyre situation....we currently have a nice 59 plate Porche belonging to one of the partners currently abandoned in the entrance to our carpark. We're debating whether to help him out later.

[Daniel]

My mum got a grant for cavity wall insulation. She only had to pay about £150 towards it herself. :)

Back to the tyre situation....we currently have a nice 59 plate Porche belonging to one of the partners currently abandoned in the entrance to our carpark. We're debating whether to help him out later.
Porsches shouldn't be too bad being rear engined and RWD.

[GridGirl]

Then there should be no excuse for it to be blocking the the majority of the entrance to our car park then and be nowhere near his nice allocated space! I'm suprised that no one has crashed into this morning already. :s

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Really glad we added another few layers of loft insulation last year. We are cosy and warm! :D

You can tell which houses round here have good insulation by seeing which ones have snow on the roof which ones have melted.

[edv]

Ahhh!
This morning the Chinook has arrived!
We now get a week of warmish weather. Hooray!

[Mark in Oshawa]

-9 today. Beautiful winter day. Makes me think I should take up skiing again....

[schmenke]

Ahhh!
This morning the Chinook has arrived!
We now get a week of warmish weather. Hooray!

Yep. My head has been pounding since yesterday.
Still, that won't deter me from perhpas digging out (literally) the BBQ and charring some meat this weekend :up:

[Mark in Oshawa]

Schmenke, you get headaches from rapid air pressure changes? I get aching knees when low pressure systems are coming....I feel the pain in a sense....

[DexDexter]

-9 today. Beautiful winter day. Makes me think I should take up skiing again....

I've been thinking about the same thing. -21 outside and plus 22 inside. :)

[Hazell B]

You should be able to get a grant for cavity wall insulation non?


Probably hasn't cavity walls, few terrace houses have.
Mine's 1890, so is two bricks thick, no cavity, like most of them. We added a layer of Kingspan outside under render (to the front only) and it's cartainly better.

A New Zealander delivered something to my yard today. It's his first ever snow. He was in a little van, like a Kangoo, and made it down my home-made lane with it's foot of virgin snow no worries. He also asked why so many Brits are such rotten drivers in this weather :laugh:
Three weeks here and he knows the score :D

[Mark in Oshawa]

I've been thinking about the same thing. -21 outside and plus 22 inside. :)

Sounds like a good day to sit by the fire and Apres Ski with a nice drink...

[Daniel]

Probably hasn't cavity walls, few terrace houses have.
Mine's 1890, so is two bricks thick, no cavity, like most of them. We added a layer of Kingspan outside under render (to the front only) and it's cartainly better.

A New Zealander delivered something to my yard today. It's his first ever snow. He was in a little van, like a Kangoo, and made it down my home-made lane with it's foot of virgin snow no worries. He also asked why so many Brits are such rotten drivers in this weather :laugh:
Three weeks here and he knows the score :D
Ah fair enough, I'm not really au fait with construction types around here if I'm honest!

[Drew]

I've always wondered how Finns and Canadians and the like deal with the temperature difference. You wrap up warm go outside and then walk into a shop with the heating on full whack and you start to sweat.

I can cope with the cold weather well, as soon as it gets even a bit breezy I suffer and freeze up.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I've always wondered how Finns and Canadians and the like deal with the temperature difference. You wrap up warm go outside and then walk into a shop with the heating on full whack and you start to sweat.

I can cope with the cold weather well, as soon as it gets even a bit breezy I suffer and freeze up.

Wear layers...and some stores don't over heat the place. We are sort of used to it....We put up with it to get the glory of a Canadian summer ( or a Finnish summer that would be just as amazing). Nothing better than a beautiful July day sitting by the water with a cold beverage with friends. You lock that memory in your mind and gets you through the long winter....

[J4MIE]

We are up to just under a foot of snow in total now, though it has been building up for the past few weeks bit by bit. Warm enough in our living room which has a big (new-ish) radiator but the rest of the house is chilly but not too uncomfortable. Or big problem is the village roads are snowed/iced up, and the ruts in the road are solid ice of about 3 inches, meaning it is nearly impossible to move cars from the road into the parking at the side of the street :s My parents aren't trusting enough to let anyone go out in a car so I've not had a chance to go out in it :bigcry:

Plan is to go out tomorrow up the hills and take plenty of photos before it all disappears :(

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs156.snc3/18342_409529280611_529115611_10731886_6059718_n.jp g

[Langdale Forest]

The temperature this morning was -11c, but it is now a very tropical +1c.

[Mark in Oshawa]

We are up to just under a foot of snow in total now, though it has been building up for the past few weeks bit by bit. Warm enough in our living room which has a big (new-ish) radiator but the rest of the house is chilly but not too uncomfortable. Or big problem is the village roads are snowed/iced up, and the ruts in the road are solid ice of about 3 inches, meaning it is nearly impossible to move cars from the road into the parking at the side of the street :s My parents aren't trusting enough to let anyone go out in a car so I've not had a chance to go out in it :bigcry:

Plan is to go out tomorrow up the hills and take plenty of photos before it all disappears :(

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs156.snc3/18342_409529280611_529115611_10731886_6059718_n.jp g

You have more snow than I have right now....but that is ok. Oshawa is in a seam between snow belts, we rarely see the snow that places 20 miles north of us get or the whole south shore of Lake Ontario see....

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Your neighbours need more loft insulation Jamie ;)

[Mark in Oshawa]

Your neighbours need more loft insulation Jamie ;)

The snow on the roof means the insultation is working...Attics are supposed to be cold in the winter. If the roof had no snow on it, THEN you would know they need more insul...

[Daniel]

I think that's what he means. The roof on the left is less snowy. Probably only because it faces the sun

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think that's what he means. The roof on the left is less snowy. Probably only because it faces the sun

On Closer examination, ok, I see what he is getting at, but I suspect the wind took that off...You know the roof is badly insulating when there is no snow and you see the vapours of steam...lol

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Yeah I meant the house on the left.

We have about 3 layers of insulation on our loft and we have snow on our roof, yet the people who live opposite us have a completely clear roof so it can't be where the sun shines.

[J4MIE]

Yes the house on the left does look pretty poor as does the middle of ours though we are going to be ding a lot of work next year. The house on the right has either got perfect insulation or the heating isn't working properly ;)

I think our palm tree has had it though :(

[Mark in Oshawa]

Yeah I meant the house on the left.

We have about 3 layers of insulation on our loft and we have snow on our roof, yet the people who live opposite us have a completely clear roof so it can't be where the sun shines.

If the attic is warm enough to melt the snow, they need insulation for sure....

[edv]

-30C a couple of days back
+10C today!
Do I feel sorry for all those freezing souls in Texas? Not really.
Happily BBQing hot wings for lunch.

Although BBQing when it's -30C is not such a big problem....

[Mark in Oshawa]

-30C a couple of days back
+10C today!
Do I feel sorry for all those freezing souls in Texas? Not really.
Happily BBQing hot wings for lunch.

Although BBQing when it's -30C is not such a big problem....

You guys and your Chinooks!!!

[Langdale Forest]

-30C a couple of days back
+10C today!
Do I feel sorry for all those freezing souls in Texas? Not really.
Happily BBQing hot wings for lunch.

Although BBQing when it's -30C is not such a big problem....

Do you BBQ reindeers?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Do you BBQ reindeers?

I know where you can get some Reindeer. There is a breeder of them and other exotic ( for this area ) critters for their meat up near where Easy Drifter hangs his fishing pole....

[edv]

No reindeer, but we had some delicious buffalo this week!

[Easy Drifter]

Buffalo last night, Elk tonight.

[Langdale Forest]

Is it cheap?

[Mark]

Woke up on Sunday morning to the big thaw! Most of the snow has gone now, apart from the slushy mess in the car park at work. No snow is forecast here for at least the next week and daytime temperatures are set to remain above zero.

So it looks like the cold snap is over, for now.

[DexDexter]

The snow on the roof means the insultation is working...Attics are supposed to be cold in the winter. If the roof had no snow on it, THEN you would know they need more insul...

The material the roof is made of makes a huge difference as well. If the roof is old and made of tiles for example, the snow doesn't fall of as easily. Talking about the winter, I'm loving it. I'm planning to go to skiing tomorrow. In the Helsinki area where I live the last few winters have been wet and there hasn't been that much snow so -15 and tons of snow is just great.

[Drew]

Wear layers...and some stores don't over heat the place. We are sort of used to it....We put up with it to get the glory of a Canadian summer ( or a Finnish summer that would be just as amazing). Nothing better than a beautiful July day sitting by the water with a cold beverage with friends. You lock that memory in your mind and gets you through the long winter....

I'm not talking about the cold, I mean the difference between the temperatures, you wrap up warm to go outside and then go inside and it's boiling hot. I can't cope with that :p :


Yeah I meant the house on the left.

We have about 3 layers of insulation on our loft and we have snow on our roof, yet the people who live opposite us have a completely clear roof so it can't be where the sun shines.

They said on the news that it could be a sign of cannabis factories as they need lots and lots of heat, so who knows ;)

[Tomi]

I'm not talking about the cold, I mean the difference between the temperatures, you wrap up warm to go outside and then go inside and it's boiling hot. I can't cope with that :p :

It's easier to take off than to put on, normally we take off the extra clothes when we go inside :)

[odykas]

We don't you just use show chains when it snows? :confused:

[Mark]

We don't you just use show chains when it snows? :confused:

Because they are illegal in the UK.
Most of the time the snow is insufficient to warrant them, and then when you get onto the main roads these are usually clear anyway.

Anyway what we are talking about here is Winter Tyres, NOT Snow Tyres.

[GridGirl]

Quick question...would winter tyres have stoped my car from siding down my driveway last night? Although it didnt hit my garage, it definately wasnt where I parked it last night either!

[Daniel]

Quite possibly. It could be that your brakes were hot when you put your handbrake on and with things contracting in the cold the friction surfaces weren't being pressed together as much as was needed but I doubt it

[Brown, Jon Brow]

What if it was left in gear or reverse ?

[Mark]

Quite possibly. It could be that your brakes were hot when you put your handbrake on and with things contracting in the cold the friction surfaces weren't being pressed together as much as was needed but I doubt it

Fiesta's have rear drum brakes on most models so that shouldn't be a problem. But I'm not sure if the ST has a different setup.

[Daniel]

ST would have rear discs too but the hand brake is probably drum operated like on most cars.

[donKey jote]

We don't you just use show chains when it snows? :confused:
chains are the best for traction on snow, but you´re limited to around 30mph, and you can´t use them on "clean" tarmac :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

It's easier to take off than to put on, normally we take off the extra clothes when we go inside :)

That was my point Tomi. Those who wear winter clothes in winter nations wear lots of layers if they are in and out of the shops. Not one heavy jacket, but two jackets is better. Or a light ski jacket (jumper for you Brits) with a hoodie underneath.

It also helps that most northern nations such as Finland or Canada have people who are accustomed to the cold, and don't have to bundle up like it is -55 out there when it isn't.

Nothing funnier than going to Florida in a cold snap, and walking around in a windbreaker. The locals down there go insane!!! They laugh at us Canadians when they are all bundled up like they are seeing snow and it is only 40 F (4c). I wear a windbreaker and if I am doing anyting physical in that sort of weather, I can be wearing just a t-shirt and jeans in no times. My buddy wears his sandals until that temp is reached, and even then hates having to wear shoes once it gets colder. IT is a mindset...

[Mark in Oshawa]

We don't you just use show chains when it snows? :confused:

Chains are illegal here too except in certain applications such as commercial trucks in the mountains. They chew up the Tarmac and they really are only good for emergencies..such as getting your big rig down the pass and out of the mountains.

The best way to negotiate winter is to be in a place where the infrastructure is in place to handle the roads. Since the UK doesn't seem to see enough snow to know how to handle it, you just have to hope for warmer weather once the roads ice up; and take it easy in the mean time. Snow/winter tires (not studded, just aggressive treads) work better than regular tires BUT they are not a panacea, and if the road is icy, you still really have to be careful.

I raced on tractionized snow tires in rubber to ice class in ice racing, and I still was sideways most of my laps...

[GridGirl]

Quite possibly. It could be that your brakes were hot when you put your handbrake on and with things contracting in the cold the friction surfaces weren't being pressed together as much as was needed but I doubt it

I doubt my brakes were warm as I'd just finished a long motorway journey and hadn't really needed to brake when I parked it up. It wasn't in reverse but I don't think that would of helped anyway as it could only have slid down the drive. Tonight it's going to sleep in the garage. :)

[Daniel]

Sounds like a slippery drive then

[Mark in Oshawa]

Gridgirl, that is really scary. You should put some rock salt down on the drive if you can get some....THAT is dangerous to be even walking on.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

That was my point Tomi. Those who wear winter clothes in winter nations wear lots of layers if they are in and out of the shops. Not one heavy jacket, but two jackets is better. Or a light ski jacket (jumper for you Brits) with a hoodie underneath.

It also helps that most northern nations such as Finland or Canada have people who are accustomed to the cold, and don't have to bundle up like it is -55 out there when it isn't.

Nothing funnier than going to Florida in a cold snap, and walking around in a windbreaker. The locals down there go insane!!! They laugh at us Canadians when they are all bundled up like they are seeing snow and it is only 40 F (4c). I wear a windbreaker and if I am doing anyting physical in that sort of weather, I can be wearing just a t-shirt and jeans in no times. My buddy wears his sandals until that temp is reached, and even then hates having to wear shoes once it gets colder. IT is a mindset...


It's funny how some people get accustomed to the cold. My brother works most of the winter outside on his hill sheep farm so he is used to cold weather (mostly wind chill). Whenever I go and help hm after about 5 minutes of being outdoors I get a 'runny' nose. It makes him laugh because he never does.

[Drew]

What do they do in your cold countries about the pavements? Do they grit them too, clean off the snow? or just leave it? I remember in Turin they just left them and it got really really slushy, surely that doesn't happen everywhere?

They said on the BBC that in some parts of Oslo they have underfloor heating on the pavements so that the snow never settles and the ice never forms, impressive!

[Mark in Oshawa]

What do they do in your cold countries about the pavements? Do they grit them too, clean off the snow? or just leave it? I remember in Turin they just left them and it got really really slushy, surely that doesn't happen everywhere?

They said on the BBC that in some parts of Oslo they have underfloor heating on the pavements so that the snow never settles and the ice never forms, impressive!

Oslo is unique in that Drew. Here, with the size and amount of roads, that wouldn't happen. Here, they plow and use rock salt. It is good to about -15 and if gets below that, they use a salt/sand mix. Lately the roads have been sprayed with a brine to stop the snow from adhering to the asphalt. I know in Alberta and out on the Canadian Praries they use more sand, and drive more on snow or roads just scraped free by ploughs. The cold pretty much dictates it. Salt eats cars, damages the electronics if not sealed well, and has an ecological downside, but everything would stop dead if not used to some extent. Heavy traffic volumes make the road a mess if the snow is packing down too...

You guys are having this debate on whether to buy winter tires and it isn't to me a case of making sense to spend the money on tires for a week or two of snow a year. If you get a spell like this last two weeks, maybe it is because the UK doesn't have the road clearance equipment like Ontario or other winter jurisdiction do. does.

[DexDexter]

Quick question...would winter tyres have stoped my car from siding down my driveway last night? Although it didnt hit my garage, it definately wasnt where I parked it last night either!

In addition to winter tyres, ESP is a must in winter conditions. It's worth noting that nowadays the ESP light flashes in my dashboard all the time while in the summer you forget there is the system.

[Dave B]

I'd like to copyright the term "reductio ad slipum" - like Godwin's law which specifies that any discussion about rights will slide inevitably towards "that's how the Nazis got started, my phrase is an acknowledgement of how, when talking about clearing pavements somebody will - with tedious predictibility - state that if somebody slips on a path you've cleared you can get sued.

I'm not even sure it's true, I believe that it's an urban myth based on ambulance chasing lawyers issuing proceedings that don't get defended due to fear or ignorance of the legal system.

[Daniel]

i don't mind if someone sues me as long as I actuallly get to injure them properly. It's only fair

[Hazell B]

No Dave, it's an urban myth invented by The Daily Mirror.

They ran a story about somebody getting sued for clearing a path, when in reality he was sued by somebody for wetting a path which turned to ice that he had then tried to half heartedly clear up (he claimed) but in fact had left covered in ice when nowhere else was.

In short, one total dick ruined it for everyone else. The dick in question was a Mirror journalist, not the ice-maker.

[driveace]

when I was in Helsinki in the 80s,the heat from the power stations was in pipes under the pavements ,it was fed into the stores and factorys I believe,to heat them ,and it kept the pavements clear.
Just one more thing about ESP,I tow a caravan and ALWAYS knock ESP off when towing,because when you pass a truck at speed ,and try to steer slightly out to avoid the sucking in ,the ESP fights you as it suspects your actions are wrong.Handbooks tell you to disengage the ESP for towing

[Daniel]

Well my winter tyres that I ordered are somewhere near Hannover now. Come on Fritz! I want my tyres!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Well my winter tyres that I ordered are somewhere near Hannover now. Come on Fritz! I want my tyres!

and so is the spring! :p

[donKey jote]

hehe Daniel. btw if you ordered Contis, Hannover is R&D... yours were probably built in Korbach or in Portugal :p :

Dexter do you mean ESP or traction control?

[Daniel]

hehe Daniel. btw if you ordered Contis, Hannover is R&D... yours were probably built in Korbach or in Portugal :p :

Dexter do you mean ESP or traction control?
Nah Donkey I went for the dutch tyres because they were cheaper :uhoh: Hopefully with them on the 500 will be as surefooted as a mountain goat. I did toy with the idea of getting Bridgestone Blizzak LM-30's which tested well in the latest Adac test and were even cheaper but the tyres I bought had been tested in 175/65 R14 T which is the size I bought so I thought I couldn't go wrong

[donKey jote]

you mean Russian :p :

well I guess any at all are better than none :)

[Daniel]

and so is the spring! :p
Metoffice says we should be cold for at least another week or so and even then the warming up is in doubt :)

[Daniel]

you mean Russian :p :

well I guess any at all are better than none :)
I wouldn't buy Russian tyres :) Indian ownership now :p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vredestein

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Metoffice says we should be cold for at least another week or so and even then the warming up is in doubt :)

You mean the guess-office

[Daniel]

In addition to winter tyres, ESP is a must in winter conditions. It's worth noting that nowadays the ESP light flashes in my dashboard all the time while in the summer you forget there is the system.

I would have happily specced ESP if I could have switched it off.

Everyone likes to show this video as proof that ESP is great but Tiff seems to make a conscious effort to spin the car with ESP off and IMHO it's a dumb test because who does 70 mph on sheet ice at least in the UK? :mark:

wR1SSxpKitE

[donKey jote]

"if the system works here, it will work anywhere"

for normal driving on public roads, do everyone a favour and if you have it, leave it on :)

[Daniel]

If I had ESP I would leave it on unless I was having a play on a very quiet road :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

Nah Donkey I went for the dutch tyres because they were cheaper :uhoh: Hopefully with them on the 500 will be as surefooted as a mountain goat. I did toy with the idea of getting Bridgestone Blizzak LM-30's which tested well in the latest Adac test and were even cheaper but the tyres I bought had been tested in 175/65 R14 T which is the size I bought so I thought I couldn't go wrong

Blizzaks are the best I have heard of, that said, you will get your winter tires likely just in time for the thawing. AS I said, do you see enough snow in the Welsh Riviera to justify this expense?

[DexDexter]

hehe Daniel. btw if you ordered Contis, Hannover is R&D... yours were probably built in Korbach or in Portugal :p :

Dexter do you mean ESP or traction control?

ESP, Electronic Stability Program, traction control doesn't do anything, won't help you stay on the road. In fact it's a hindrance in snow. ESP on the other hand works great. If you go to a corner too quickly and turn in, it's pretty surprising how well it stabilizes the movement. Obviously there are limits to that but it does save lives.

[Mark in Oshawa]

ESP....that isnt' Mika Hakkinen in a box, but it is better than nothing...lol

[donKey jote]

ESP, Electronic Stability Program, traction control doesn't do anything, won't help you stay on the road. In fact it's a hindrance in snow. ESP on the other hand works great. If you go to a corner too quickly and turn in, it's pretty surprising how well it stabilizes the movement. Obviously there are limits to that but it does save lives.
:up:
I was just wondering if your ESP lamp was blinking all the time due to traction control or stability correction. Bad traction control can be a pain on snow, I know... specially if it cuts the power :p :

[donKey jote]

Blizzaks are the best I have heard of, that said, you will get your winter tires likely just in time for the thawing. AS I said, do you see enough snow in the Welsh Riviera to justify this expense?

Blizzaks are not normally top league.
Daniel you'll be lucky if you get any winter tyres from Germany at all... they've been pretty much sold out here for months :D

[donKey jote]

I wouldn't buy Russian tyres :) Indian ownership now :p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vredestein

by jove you're right!

Indian Winter tyres what is this world coming to :p :

[Daniel]

Blizzaks are not normally top league.
Daniel you'll be lucky if you get any winter tyres from Germany at all... they've been pretty much sold out here for months :D
Got them and fitted them today :p

http://members.iinet.net.au/~fenix1983/Files/500/Wintertyres/

They're pretty much as you said they should be Donkey :) Seem slightly grippier on the cold and damp tarmac but on the ice and slush there is a crapload more traction and the car brakes a lot better. I drove on a road nearby which still has a load of slush and ice and even when there was wheelspin I was still going forward unlike with the Potenza's where you just stood still :mark:

Thanks for your advice Donkey! :kiss:

[Mark in Oshawa]

Got them and fitted them today :p

http://members.iinet.net.au/~fenix1983/Files/500/Wintertyres/

They're pretty much as you said they should be Donkey :) Seem slightly grippier on the cold and damp tarmac but on the ice and slush there is a crapload more traction and the car brakes a lot better. I drove on a road nearby which still has a load of slush and ice and even when there was wheelspin I was still going forward unlike with the Potenza's where you just stood still :mark:

Thanks for your advice Donkey! :kiss:

You had Potenezas?? Oh lord they are the WORST!!!!

Donkey is right by the way, the irony of the Indians making winter tires...lol...it is sort of like a Canadian Curry shop run by a guy from Inuvik....

[Daniel]

You had Potenezas?? Oh lord they are the WORST!!!!

Donkey is right by the way, the irony of the Indians making winter tires...lol...it is sort of like a Canadian Curry shop run by a guy from Inuvik....
My Potenza's are great. Unless it's cold, snowy or icy.

The tyres are made in the Netherlands btw, just owned by the Indians and I'm happy with that :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

My Potenza's are great. Unless it's cold, snowy or icy.

The tyres are made in the Netherlands btw, just owned by the Indians and I'm happy with that :)

My potenzas on my rx-7, (this being back in 1994) were awful in anything but the dry. I hope they have improved over the years, but I know they would be awful in snow.

[Daniel]

My potenzas on my rx-7, (this being back in 1994) were awful in anything but the dry. I hope they have improved over the years, but I know they would be awful in snow.
Well I'm sure they've moved on a lot since then. TBH the Fiat hardly troubles the Potenza's and is more limited by its suspension than anything.

[donKey jote]

Thanks for your advice Donkey! :kiss:

well to be honest I would have gone for the Conti's myself... they are much better in the wet than the other 3 top tyres in the test (Fred, Goodyear and Dunlop), and as Mark mentioned, your snow (where the Fred is marginally better btw) won`t take long to melt :p :

Still, way better than then Blizzaks or no Winter tyres at all ;) :D

[Daniel]

I guess :p Not going to be doing great distances in the 500 so they should last a while I guess. For some reason I wanted a change from having Pirelli's, Bridgestone's, Michelin's or Conti's like I've always had before as well.

Donkey have you seen those pump sipes they do on Nokians I think?

[donKey jote]

hehe not close up... nice catchy name, but they look like normal sipes to me :p

[Daniel]

I saw them on Youtube. Seemed an interesting idea, not so sure how useful it would be though.

[Mark in Oshawa]

well to be honest I would have gone for the Conti's myself... they are much better in the wet than the other 3 top tyres in the test (Fred, Goodyear and Dunlop), and as Mark mentioned, your snow (where the Fred is marginally better btw) won`t take long to melt :p :

Still, way better than then Blizzaks or no Winter tyres at all ;) :D

Blizzaks are the tire of choice around here for a lot of people who go with winter tires. In snow, I guess they are quite good and I know a lot of ice racers who run rubber to ice class and they are the tire of choice there too.

Donkey, I defer to you being in the industry for the better alternatives.

I would love to know what is the best snow tire that can also tolerate pavement because our winters may involve dealing with snow where my Mother in law lives (she is in the edge of the Georgian Bay lake effect snow belt) but I see mainly pavement down here. Blizzaks I know wear out really quick if they don't see a lot of snow. It is part of the reason I muddle through with an all around all season tire....

[DexDexter]

:up:
I was just wondering if your ESP lamp was blinking all the time due to traction control or stability correction. Bad traction control can be a pain on snow, I know... specially if it cuts the power :p :

True, I guess it's both but I do see the light flashing in the corners so that's not traction control.

[Valve Bounce]

Firstly before some clot say "We're not bloody Finland or Russia, we don't always have snow" let me just say that a more correct name for winter tyres would be cold weather tyres because they are made of a far softer compound than summer tyres and are still softer than all weather tyres. Because we're all motorsport fans here we know that the hotter it is the harder the compound you run because rubber softens up under heat and the colder it is the softer the compound you run because rubber hardens up when it's cold. The tyre companies say that summer tyres and winter tyres are equal at 7 degrees C and below that the gap just gets wider and wider.

Here's a graphic illustration of the capabilities of winter tyres on 3 cars of a similar weight and configuration.
pXuhfwY74b8

Now we've had a bit of snow in the South West of England yesterday and today and because the tyres sold in the UK are almost exclusively summer tyres every one is (to quote Dave Brockman) "doing Torville & Dean impressions" on the road and no one's getting to work and the economy is losing money, cars are going off the road, having accidents etc etc. Now if we're to believe what the media tells us, these sorts of events will be more common and probably more severe in the future because of global warming so is there now a case for winter tyres in the UK? People argue that it's an extra expense but can you really put a price on having more grip in the cooler months and also not being completely helpless in the event of heavy snow? It's not even that much of an expense! You buy some cheap steelies or alloys and then you buys your winter tyres which in general are actually cheaper than summer tyres so you don't get all that nasty salt screwing your nice wheels up, and you save wear on your more expensive summer tyres.

A link to a BBC story so some of the foreigners can have a read and a larf.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8419898.stm

Am I missing something here?

Why bother? why not just get an AWD vehicle? I'd go for a Subaru if I was living in England and cannot afford a Volvo XC.

[Daniel]

Why bother? why not just get an AWD vehicle? I'd go for a Subaru if I was living in England and cannot afford a Volvo XC.
Just remember VB that AWD vehicles don't handle or brake any better on ice and snow than a FWD car. Plus a Subaru is more to tax, insure, service and run in terms of fuel and tyres PLUS we've already got one Subaru :)

[Mark]

Why bother? why not just get an AWD vehicle?

Because that'll probably be around £10,000-£20,000 more expensive than an ordinary car when winter tyres are more like £200 for a set?!

The phrase 'using tactical nuclear explosives to open a bag of crisps' comes to mind :p

[Daniel]

Because that'll probably be around £10,000-£20,000 more expensive than an ordinary car when winter tyres are more like £200 for a set?!

The phrase 'using tactical nuclear explosives to open a bag of crisps' comes to mind :p
Including rims, wheel trims, fitting, balancing and tyres it cost me £287. Next time I do it it'll obviously be cheaper as I don't need new wheels :)

An AWD car wouldn't be 10k more expensive though, a 1.5 Subaru Impreza starts at £13,495 and a 2.0 starts @ £16,245 but then I'd expect to be using probably 30% more fuel so it's not worth it.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Because that'll probably be around £10,000-£20,000 more expensive than an ordinary car when winter tyres are more like £200 for a set?!

The phrase 'using tactical nuclear explosives to open a bag of crisps' comes to mind :p

ssssshhhh...you just destroyed the rationale for millions of people who own SUV's because they think they are safer on a snowy road!!

I cant count the number of SUV's I have seen upside down in the ditch in a bad storm from the driver seat of my rig...they are a false hope for the unwary....

[Langdale Forest]

The phrase 'using tactical nuclear explosives to open a bag of crisps' comes to mind :p


Who would even think of doing that? :D

[Langdale Forest]

I cant count the number of SUV's I have seen upside down in the ditch in a bad storm from the driver seat of my rig...they are a false hope for the unwary....

That's down to 'stupid' drvers.

Front wheel drive cars are always getting stuck in the snow here on even the slightest hill and 4x4s have no problems.

[Mark in Oshawa]

That's down to 'stupid' drvers.

Front wheel drive cars are always getting stuck in the snow here on even the slightest hill and 4x4s have no problems.

Stupid drivers who believe things out there are not as bad as they are because you never get stuck. I live in a world where we HAVE winter for 5 months a year bud. I know what the limitations of Front wheel drive are, and I manage JUST fine. SUV's give the driver, even a pretty good one a false sense of security, which usually can lead at one point to someone going faster than they should and THAT is where the accidents occur. If you are struggling for traction in a front drive small car, you never get up to an unsafe speed.

[Langdale Forest]

But if you knew how to drive a SUV proprrley, it would be safer?

[Daniel]

only in terms of traction. Braking and cornering are where accidents happpen.

[Mark in Oshawa]

But if you knew how to drive a SUV proprrley, it would be safer?
Since you live on an island where a snowstorm can cripple the whole nation for 2 weeks, I am going to assume your winter driving experience is limited and was on roads not ploughed or handled properly. I don't know if you drove an AWD or 4WD on the snow or not, but I think I can tell you very safely that an SUV with 4WD will only be the asset you think it is if you are always very wary of the conditions.

People who drive one of these beasts never slide accelerating, or spin their wheels a whole lot less. Once up to "speed" they are not thinking things are not slippery. Then they brake, or go to turn, and they find out what I found out in my little Nissan when I went to leave the parking lot. That it is slippery!

As someone who has driven over 300000 MILES in the last 2 years, about a third of that was in winter. Out of that time, I will say that without a doubt the vehicles that had the least respect for how slippery it was were driven by people fooled by that feeling they are getting in their SUV's. IN the Big Rig I was driving, I could feel the lack of traction because with the high center of gravity, you are very aware of the "feel" through the wheel and you will get wheelspin. The guys in the cars without this asset usually were going as slow as I was, or slower. The 4wd people? Driving like it was a nice day....and then you just had to look at the cars in in the ditch, and see people who had passed you not 10 minutes ago.

Dumb driving will put you off the road and smart driving wont, but when you are in a vehicle with great mass, a higher center of gravity but great accelerative traction, you are living in the danger zone. You have no concept of slippery it is from what your senses are telling you. I know this because my mother had a Jeep Cherokee and I found this was my personal experience. It never felt as slippery through the wheel or my senses driving that Jeep but I knew when I was in my car before that it WAS dangerous.

If experienced drivers can be fooled, you think the ignorant or clueless aren't more dangerous in a SUV?? Unfornuately, you cant tell people what to drive.

So I tell everyone, a car with good winter tires is SAFER in that it is more controllable and less likely to be in an accident than an SUV. My bias? Sure...but one borne out of living in a winter nation and driving for a living for the last 14 years.

[Langdale Forest]

only in terms of traction. Braking and cornering are where accidents happpen.

You need to remember that the heavier the car, the more braking distance you need.

[Valve Bounce]

Just remember VB that AWD vehicles don't handle or brake any better on ice and snow than a FWD car. Plus a Subaru is more to tax, insure, service and run in terms of fuel and tyres PLUS we've already got one Subaru :)

Sorry to put a damper on your views, but after supervising snow clearing for three years in the Snowy Mountains, I would certainly rather have a AWD or 4WD if I was driving on snow and ice, especially if I had to go uphill. Now if I was coming downhill and had to rely on my gears to slow me down an icy road, I would certainly rather have a AWD or 4WD than your two wheel drive.

[Valve Bounce]

Since you live on an island where a snowstorm can cripple the whole nation for 2 weeks, I am going to assume your winter driving experience is limited and was on roads not ploughed or handled properly. I don't know if you drove an AWD or 4WD on the snow or not, but I think I can tell you very safely that an SUV with 4WD will only be the asset you think it is if you are always very wary of the conditions.

People who drive one of these beasts never slide accelerating, or spin their wheels a whole lot less. Once up to "speed" they are not thinking things are not slippery. Then they brake, or go to turn, and they find out what I found out in my little Nissan when I went to leave the parking lot. That it is slippery!

As someone who has driven over 300000 MILES in the last 2 years, about a third of that was in winter. Out of that time, I will say that without a doubt the vehicles that had the least respect for how slippery it was were driven by people fooled by that feeling they are getting in their SUV's. IN the Big Rig I was driving, I could feel the lack of traction because with the high center of gravity, you are very aware of the "feel" through the wheel and you will get wheelspin. The guys in the cars without this asset usually were going as slow as I was, or slower. The 4wd people? Driving like it was a nice day....and then you just had to look at the cars in in the ditch, and see people who had passed you not 10 minutes ago.

Dumb driving will put you off the road and smart driving wont, but when you are in a vehicle with great mass, a higher center of gravity but great accelerative traction, you are living in the danger zone. You have no concept of slippery it is from what your senses are telling you. I know this because my mother had a Jeep Cherokee and I found this was my personal experience. It never felt as slippery through the wheel or my senses driving that Jeep but I knew when I was in my car before that it WAS dangerous.

If experienced drivers can be fooled, you think the ignorant or clueless aren't more dangerous in a SUV?? Unfornuately, you cant tell people what to drive.

So I tell everyone, a car with good winter tires is SAFER in that it is more controllable and less likely to be in an accident than an SUV. My bias? Sure...but one borne out of living in a winter nation and driving for a living for the last 14 years.

Mark! you are comparing driving habits between drivers of different types of vehicle rather than the safety of such vehicles if driven properly. I certainly would not use a 2 WD vehicle to supervise snow clearing - we used the old Landrovers in those days - and coming down a long incline, one had to put the Landrover into second gear to slow it down, and use the brakes very gingerly. So going to your last paragraph, would you still insist that a 2 WD fitted with winter tyres is safer than a 4WD fitted with winter tyres driven by the same person? Because when I was coming down to Island Bend from Renix Gap, I was sure as heck happier to be in a Landrover than a Ford Falcon fitted with winter tyres.

[DexDexter]

That's down to 'stupid' drvers.

Front wheel drive cars are always getting stuck in the snow here on even the slightest hill and 4x4s have no problems.

I've never been stuck in snow in my front wheel drive car and I've had my driving license for quite a while. It's the tires, on summer tires 4x4 certainly helps a bit but I would never even think of driving in the snow with summer tires no matter what car I had under me. But I guess you have to in the UK.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mark! you are comparing driving habits between drivers of different types of vehicle rather than the safety of such vehicles if driven properly. I certainly would not use a 2 WD vehicle to supervise snow clearing - we used the old Landrovers in those days - and coming down a long incline, one had to put the Landrover into second gear to slow it down, and use the brakes very gingerly. So going to your last paragraph, would you still insist that a 2 WD fitted with winter tyres is safer than a 4WD fitted with winter tyres driven by the same person? Because when I was coming down to Island Bend from Renix Gap, I was sure as heck happier to be in a Landrover than a Ford Falcon fitted with winter tyres.

Well first off, I would love a Falcon period..lol

You are correct that 4wd is the best for traction BUT what I am trying to emphasize that the 4wd is no panacea or equalizer for bad driving habits in bad conditions. The reason I am pretty sour on it is because in most areas, you are not climbing mountains, you are in town, or in gentle rolling countryside, and too may people will get going too fast with the 4wd because they do not respect that it still is slippery. The 4wd masks the actual lack of traction that you will notice in the fwd car. It is a superior vehicle, but only in acceleration and THIS is the issue. You don't slide or spin much getting up to speed, and you get up to a speed with less fuss, leading that little doubt in the back of your mind to think maybe things are not slippery...whereas me in my little Front wheel drive just spent a minute trying to get up to anything close to a decent speed, and I can feel the wheelspin with every boot of the throttle.

Unless you are vigiliant with the 4wd, you are just going faster when you lose it... whereas in the fwd, you pretty much are always aware. Trust me, SUV's are about a quarter of the vehicles bought any more, or 4wd pickups, yet every storm I drove through, more than HALF of the vehicles I saw off the road in the ditch were SUV's with 4wd. People just do not respect the conditions because of the false sense of security.

If you are smart and careful, the 4wd is always superior, but I find most people keep forgetting the careful part...and it gets them into trouble. I wouldn't have this bias I suppose if I lived in Canada's north country were people are always aware because crashing in the middle of no where can mean you freeze to death, but down here in the populated south, people do all sorts of brain dead stuff behind the wheel.

[donKey jote]

Donkey, I defer to you being in the industry for the better alternatives.
in the test and tire size Daniel mentioned, the Blizzaks (and Michelins and Pirellis for that matter) were second class. However this is the ADAC weighted overall score, so you really need to pick what suits you best. I tend to focus on wet safety and don´t care much at all about rolling resistance or mileage (to some extent these are pretty much conflicting design goals, as are wet/winter or winter/wear: in this same test Michelin for example was best for wear but worst in wet and winter). If your main focus is mileage and "get by" in wet or winter properties when they arise or when you're at your mil´s, all seasons would certainly fit the part...

In the end, as ever, it comes down to "don´t drive dumb": know your vehicle, your rubbers and their abilities or limitations under the road conditions... and drive accordingly!

[Mark in Oshawa]

in the test and tire size Daniel mentioned, the Blizzaks (and Michelins and Pirellis for that matter) were second class. However this is the ADAC weighted overall score, so you really need to pick what suits you best. I tend to focus on wet safety and don´t care much at all about rolling resistance or mileage (to some extent these are pretty much conflicting design goals, as are wet/winter or winter/wear: in this same test Michelin for example was best for wear but worst in wet and winter). If your main focus is mileage and "get by" in wet or winter properties when they arise or when you're at your mil´s, all seasons would certainly fit the part...

In the end, as ever, it comes down to "don´t drive dumb": know your vehicle, your rubbers and their abilities or limitations under the road conditions... and drive accordingly!



I do know that for "snow" tires ( you guys in Europe refer to them as Winter tires), the two big names in the Canadian Market are the Blizzak and the Michelin. People who buy them still have to drive mainly on pavement in Southern Ontario because the road clearing takes the snow off within 24 hours of the last flake falling, and we don't see THAT much snow. In Quebec, where it can be colder and it snows more, maybe they wouldn't wear them out as quickly, at least outside of Montreal.

My main issue with snows is unless you live in a snow belt, you would wear this tire out on the pavement. What is more, the "all season" tire is a good all around tire that manages in snowy weather. So I never bothered getting snows. Then again, I don't live in the snow belt like Easy Drifter does. Nor do I live in Quebec, where it is law to have winter or snow tires on the car from Nov.1 to the end of March. I suspect the tire shop lobbiests had a great drunk the day THAT one was passed...lol.

[Daniel]

In this years test on 185/60 R14 the Blizzak LM30's were rated in the top group as well but last year in my size the LM20's weren't.

Donkey, how much does performance change with tyre size?
I notice the Vredestein's rate well here -> http://www1.adac.de/Tests/Reifentests/Winterreifen/175_65_R14T/default.asp?ComponentID=229313&SourcePageID=8979 but then move up to a different size and they're far from the top -> http://www1.adac.de/Tests/Reifentests/Winterreifen/205_55_R16H_2009/default.asp?ComponentID=268441&SourcePageID=8979

Only driven maybe 50 miles or so on them but I'm quite happy. One strange thing is that because they're narrower the car coasts longer so normally I'd lift off for a corner or roundabout and be at my normal entry speed but now I'm going just that bit faster. This also seems to mean that it's just a bit more fuel efficient now as well judging from what the trip computer is saying which is a good surprise :)

[Daniel]

I do know that for "snow" tires ( you guys in Europe refer to them as Winter tires), the two big names in the Canadian Market are the Blizzak and the Michelin. People who buy them still have to drive mainly on pavement in Southern Ontario because the road clearing takes the snow off within 24 hours of the last flake falling, and we don't see THAT much snow. In Quebec, where it can be colder and it snows more, maybe they wouldn't wear them out as quickly, at least outside of Montreal.

My main issue with snows is unless you live in a snow belt, you would wear this tire out on the pavement. What is more, the "all season" tire is a good all around tire that manages in snowy weather. So I never bothered getting snows. Then again, I don't live in the snow belt like Easy Drifter does. Nor do I live in Quebec, where it is law to have winter or snow tires on the car from Nov.1 to the end of March. I suspect the tire shop lobbiests had a great drunk the day THAT one was passed...lol.
Remember what Donkey said about compounds though, if summer tyres wear worse in winter than a winter tyre then winter tyres still make sense unless it gets silly warm.

[donKey jote]

I do know that for "snow" tires ( you guys in Europe refer to them as Winter tires), the two big names in the Canadian Market are the Blizzak and the Michelin.
Funny you say that (also specifically Blizzak and Michelin) because here the general opinion is that you don´t have any proper winter tyres anywhere in America ( ;) ) despite the cold Winters up North :p


My main issue with snows is unless you live in a snow belt, you would wear this tire out on the pavement. What is more, the "all season" tire is a good all around tire that manages in snowy weather. So I never bothered getting snows. Then again, I don't live in the snow belt like Easy Drifter does.
The first Winter tyres - back in the 50´s- were Snow tyres as they were made to get you up the St.Gotthard pass on the white stuff and pretty much nothing else. The snow cover here in northern Germany is normally a week or so spread over the whole Winter (although this year it´s been an uninterrupted 3 weeks so far - "worst" Winter in 30 years :D ), but snow is really not the point. Now Winter tyres are really low temperature all-rounders. I wouldn´t say even a tenth of Germany lives in any sort of snow belt comparable to yours, but many have 2 sets of wheels anyway.



Nor do I live in Quebec, where it is law to have winter or snow tires on the car from Nov.1 to the end of March. I suspect the tire shop lobbiests had a great drunk the day THAT one was passed...lol.
I'm not sure if there is some sort of legislation or not here yet, but there is certainly talk about October to March... the main problem I think is to find a legal definition for Winter tyre (hehe perfect bEUrocrat work ;) ). However, have an accident on "inappropriate" tyres and a) you´ll be considered at least partly liable, and b) your insurance will most likely not pay.

[donKey jote]

In this years test on 185/60 R14 the Blizzak LM30's were rated in the top group as well but last year in my size the LM20's weren't.
Yes, different product... maybe Bridge decided to shift strategy a bit after a couple of years of getting thumped :p : .


Donkey, how much does performance change with tyre size?
I notice the Vredestein's rate well here -> http://www1.adac.de/Tests/Reifentests/Winterreifen/175_65_R14T/default.asp?ComponentID=229313&SourcePageID=8979 but then move up to a different size and they're far from the top -> http://www1.adac.de/Tests/Reifentests/Winterreifen/205_55_R16H_2009/default.asp?ComponentID=268441&SourcePageID=8979
Maybe 205'er Vreds have a crap compound.... New size = different product articles = possibly different comparative test results.
Bit like comparing a Fiat Panda vs Renault Twingo, and then a Multipla vs a Grand Scénic. Some overall brand strategy might prevail, but in the details you're comparing different chassis, engines, etc.


This also seems to mean that it's just a bit more fuel efficient now as well judging from what the trip computer is saying which is a good surprise :)
Narrower tires generally provide better fuel consumption than wider ones (check the pdf here (http://www1.adac.de/Tests/Reifentests/breitenvergleich/default.asp?ComponentID=188689&SourcePageID=8762) for example, under "Rollwiderstand" - Rolling Resistance), but the main effect on your trip computer could well be down to tyre circumference ;)

[driveace]

look at the Finnish and Swedish,rally tyres in winter and see how narrow they are.The idea is that the narrower the tyres the more they CUT through the snow and ice.I have two winter tyres for my Fiesta they are 145X14 ,and they are good,the fatter tyres ride on top OF THE SNOW,AND DONT CUT INTO IT

[Daniel]

Just two? You should always have a set of 4. I would have gone for a narrower tyre but the 175's were the narrowest tyres listed in the manual.

[Langdale Forest]

Remember the bast cars don't have to have wheels.

[Daniel]

Narrower tires generally provide better fuel consumption than wider ones (check the pdf here (http://www1.adac.de/Tests/Reifentests/breitenvergleich/default.asp?ComponentID=188689&SourcePageID=8762) for example, under "Rollwiderstand" - Rolling Resistance), but the main effect on your trip computer could well be down to tyre circumference ;)

I'm intrigued ;) Maths says that the new tyres are only 1mm taller than the old ones?

[Valve Bounce]

I remember quite a long time ago that Pirelli had a great snow tyre with a tread totally different from the wet weather tyres widely flogged in Australia for winter conditions. The tread was specially designed to perform well under snow and ice conditions, and they were expensive; I bought two for my VW1500S, and they were just great - almost as good as chains.

Getting back to 4WD's (at least in Oz) this is a cultural thing, and creates a totally separate issue. As in Hawaii, these vehicles are purchased for different reasons than off road: they offer better view as the driver sat higher, they afforded better protection in a crash, and mothers needed the added space to fit their children when driving them to kinder or school. No one would admit that they bought these vehicles (which we call Toorak Tractors) as a status symbol; and at least 90% of them would never even be driven on a gravel road let alone ice and snow. Imagine what would happen if any of these drivers were ever confronted with icy conditions!! They would prang the vehicle.

However, if I lived in Denver, I would definitely choose my Volvo XC over any 2WD vehicle, but then I feel that I am fully capable of driving under ice and snow conditions. But that is another story.

[Daniel]

Oh my ****ing god! We just had about a bit of snow and loads of big ice pellets. On the main roads this has been compacted down by traffic and these tyres are gripping like anything compared to my summer tyres. Going somewhere for the day tomorrow and hoping for more snow tonight so I can see just how good they are. Went up a fairly steep hill which I never would have attempted with the old tyres and got up no problems, did some brake tests and it stops much better. 500 is as surefooted as a mountain goat :D Best £200 ever spent IMHO

[Valve Bounce]

Don't forget your chains.

[Daniel]

Don't forget your chains.
No need for chains.

[Valve Bounce]

No need for chains.

Famous last words. It all depends on where you want to go and what the conditions will be there.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Donkey, where you saw we have substandard winter tires, I would have to say we get all the brands sold in Europe in well. I can buy Pirelli, Hakkapelita, Continentals and Dunlops as well as the Blizzaks and Michelin tires. People who buy ice radials here usually live where they see enough snow they are not getting them chewed up on bare pavement, but the fact remains about half the cars in this part of Ontario have them in winter, and with higher powered cars, I would have to say they are a really good idea. That said, my old Sentra never a set of winter tires and I never got stuck so it to a point depends on how you drive.

I am glad for your input tho. It isn't often one gets a chance to ask someone in the tire business about tires on a techinical level.

[janneppi]

It's been pretty slippery here this winter, i'm glad I run studded tyres. And even with them i might get wheelspin on third gear doing 60kph. ( it takes a bit of effort on the throttle though :) )
It's bad for trucks and busses. Two weeks ago i was driving to Lahti and a oncoming semi/combination (täysperävaunu for the finns) began snaking as it tried to brake into a junction in a downhill. It wasn't fun to see the back trailer in my lane, fortunately there was enough distance and the driver managed to keep most of the vehicle in his lane.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It's been pretty slippery here this winter, i'm glad I run studded tyres. And even with them i might get wheelspin on third gear doing 60kph. ( it takes a bit of effort on the throttle though :) )
It's bad for trucks and busses. Two weeks ago i was driving to Lahti and a oncoming semi/combination (täysperävaunu for the finns) began snaking as it tried to brake into a junction in a downhill. It wasn't fun to see the back trailer in my lane, fortunately there was enough distance and the driver managed to keep most of the vehicle in his lane.

Janneppi, I can imagine he was sweating and shaking. Having a trailer walking out from behind the tractor is VERY unnerving. Clean the shorts out unnerving....

[Daniel]

Janneppi, I can imagine he was sweating and shaking. Having a trailer walking out from behind the tractor is VERY unnerving. Clean the shorts out unnerving....
Not as unnerving as being right next to said truck :uhoh:

[janneppi]

Looking out the window, yesterday's switch to winter tyres wasn't that bad an idea. Snow is flying horizontally across the yard. :)

[Mark]

Good idea then! In the UK we wouldn't normally expect to see snow until well into December, more likely January. Last year was unusual in that we got plenty before Christmas.

I know winter tyres aren't just for snow - before Daniel starts :p

[schmenke]

Summer tires are still mounted on my POS. Forecast temp for today is 19 deg. C :) . I'll swap to winters only when there is the first hint of snow in the forecast, and that doesn't seem to be any time soon.

[Daniel]

Pretty warm here of late, just starting to get cool now. I think it'll be November before I put the winter tyres back on the Fiat and buy a set for the Subaru.

[Mark]

Yep, temps still hovering around the 13C mark. I remember you saying they had to be consistently below 7C before they are effective.

[Eki]

Summer tires are still mounted on my POS. Forecast temp for today is 19 deg. C :) . I'll swap to winters only when there is the first hint of snow in the forecast, and that doesn't seem to be any time soon.
The magpie I saw today must have been domestic then.

[donKey jote]

"O to O" (Oktober to Oster) is the unofficial Winter tyre season in Germany.
I'll be changing soon I guess, as soon as it gets a bit colder :)

[schmenke]

Hey Donks, what are the risks in driving on summer ti(y)res in cold, e.g. < 0 deg. C, weather if there is no snow?