Still the "Pinnacle"?

[Hondo]

The exotic, specially formulated fuels are gone. The technology and the methods of it's development have been severely curtailed. The tire selection has all the excitment of bidding a prison laundry contract. The price has been lowered to where any astute businessman with skilled salesmen can buy their way in, along with a chassis and motor. A standard CPU is used. Reliability standards. Safety car. All manner of regulation that seems to stifle rather than stimulate the racing action. Drivers selected for the sponsorship money hanging out of their back pockets more than the skills they bring to team and track.

Can anyone still claim F1 is the pinnacle of auto racing and keep a straight face? Still the pinnacle? If your answer is yes, then why?

Personally, I shuddered cold chills back when they brought in the paddock speed limits. I knew for sure the dumbing down of F1 had begun.

[VkmSpouge]

The price has been lowered to where any astute businessman with skilled salesmen can buy their way in,

An entirely good thing.


Drivers selected for the sponsorship money hanging out of their back pockets more than the skills they bring to team and track.

That has been going on for a long, long, long time.


Can anyone still claim F1 is the pinnacle of auto racing and keep a straight face? Still the pinnacle? If your answer is yes, then why?

What would you claim is the pinnacle of motor racing?

[Sonic]

Yes. But only because the challengers have also suffered from all of the things you have mentioned.

[ioan]

Yes, because the lap times are being lowered continuously.

[Hondo]

The "Pinnacle" of anything does not lower it's standards to make access easier. When it does, you spawn off things like the IRL. Formula Ford is easy to get into for everybody, I've never heard it called the Pinnacle of Motorsport.

I don't think there is a pinnacle right now. F1 has become another spec series. I would guess that one reason for lower lap times each year is improved tire technology each year. If lap times are the basis for being the Pinnacle, then Autocross should be the Pinnacle. One car, running alone against a clock.

[ioan]

The "Pinnacle" of anything does not lower it's standards to make access easier. When it does, you spawn off things like the IRL. Formula Ford is easy to get into for everybody, I've never heard it called the Pinnacle of Motorsport.

I don't think there is a pinnacle right now. F1 has become another spec series. I would guess that one reason for lower lap times each year is improved tire technology each year. If lap times are the basis for being the Pinnacle, then Autocross should be the Pinnacle. One car, running alone against a clock.

Pinnacle = The highest point; the culmination. (http://www.answers.com/topic/pinnacle)

I believe that if 20 years ago F1 was the pinnacle of motorsport and it did constantly become faster than it was it still is the pinnacle, unless there is another wheel based motorsport that is faster than F1.

[Saint Devote]

This is an old tired discussion - personally I really do not care if it is the pinnacle or not.

For me it is the most enjoyable, exciting and pretty of all racing. It has a rich history and an international flavor that no other sport can claim.

I love formula 1 - it is also the quickest of all racing and requires the quickest drivers, that to me anyway IS the pinnacle.

[macksrallye]

Yes, because the lap times are being lowered continuously.

No offence intended ioan but that is a pretty pathetic reason. If that is the case though i could reasonably argue that v8supercars, the australian f3 series, world rally championship or my local autocross is the pinnacle of motorsport. Having said all of this I see what you're getting at.

Even with the regs being so tight nowadays designers & teams are still pushing the envelope, just not in ways we are used to (double diffuser anyone). I think the stress that f1 as a sport puts on the drivers & their teams means you do have to be something special to be involved in any way, shape or form. That's why to me it is still the pinnacle.

[V12]

I'm in two minds - firstly F1 becoming more accessible is a good, very good thing. At the height of the F1 tech boom in the late 80s and early 90s was also the period when F1 had its highest number of entrants.

But yes, I do regret the "dumbing down" aspects in the technical rules, safety cars used at almost US levels these days. Even worse is when I get the likes of Mosley and Briatore telling me as a fan what I care and don't care about. F1 isn't exactly WWF or NASCAR-like but I do get the feeling it's going to be on a bit of a slippery slope if it isn't careful.

[CCWS77]

I would define the pinnacle of racing as those teams and drivers best in the world at getting from point A to point B using rules X. What rules X are doesn't matter much in terms of defining the pinnacle of racers. That matters more to those whose expertise lies more in shaping what the rules are then in actually competing in whatever the rules happen to be. I welcome any rules changes that screws over the political and financial players who intend to win by shaping the rules in a way they can foresee. What the mechanical result is almost doesn't matter. throw some darts at a board to determine the rules every year so the actual skill of those competing is the only thing that would matter. That doesn't lessen the essence of it as the pinnacle, it would increase it. The politics that makes people doubt it is even actually about the best racers getting from point A to B is what risks derailing it as the pinnacle.

So in short if you want to measure if F1 is losing some of its pinnacleness based on mechanical or procedural rules changes you don't like then you are not even using the right measuring stick.

[maximilian]

Some dumbing down is necessary, because the level of technology has reached such heights these days that driver aids and car improvements were taking too much of the driving skill away. In my opinion, that would be more the "pinnacle of technology", and not the pinnacle of motorsports. To me, it's still about the DRIVERS. And the best drivers can undoubtedly be found in F1, and that's where (almost) every driver wishes to be.

I too think that greater access to F1 is a great thing. I love to see new teams like Virgin and Lotus appear and try their luck, dog knows it's hard enough to try and succeed, and good luck to them. We have seen where the ultra-expensive ultra-technology "franchise" F1 leads... fields of 18 cars backed by manufacturers who could pull out at any time, according to their business whims...

[call_me_andrew]

I say there never was a pinnacle, only a plateau.

[F1boat]

I love formula 1 - it is also the quickest of all racing and requires the quickest drivers, that to me anyway IS the pinnacle.

Same here.

[UltimateDanGTR]

I believe F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport. why? because quite simply: It is the most watched motor sports event in the world. It gets the most media coverage of any motorsport etc etc. Its the pinnacle because not only do you need great drivers, engineers etc-but also because it is the BIGGEST motorsport. bar none.

Nascar is big in the USA but not world wide. many motorsport fans love touring cars or rallying or sports cars etc but they are not as big as F1.

The olympics are the biggest stage for their various sports-the olympics are the pinnacle of swimming, athletics or whatever. (not so the team sports granted but individual events definatly so)

why do we know F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport? look at the viewing figures. and compare them to the world stage competitor in motorsport-Le mans series, WTCC, MotoGP etc. nuff said.

[V12]

It's not just the dumbing down of technology though. I watched a re-run of the 1984 Monaco GP on YouTube the other day, atrocious weather conditions, everyone minus Bellof with turbo engines, drivers going off, two classic drives from Senna and Bellof, the likes of Mansell and Lauda falling victim to the conditions, and ahead of it all Prost playing his percentage game to perfection (you could argue he got a bucket load of luck, but a wins a win).

Now, if that race took place in 2009, it would probably have been started behind the safety car, which would then have been re-introduced every five laps whenever a car went off, we'd probably have been subjected to a publicised GPDA protest on the dummy grid about having to race the rain at some point as well.

[555-04Q2]

F1 has been going backwards quickly since the introduction of grooved tyres, engine displacement reductions etc etc

Engineers should be told you have a box size this long by this wide by this high, now build a fast car with whatever engine, aero etc you want.

[Valve Bounce]

What would you claim is the pinnacle of motor racing?

One word: MOTO

[callum122]

The lap times don't need to be reduced anymore. The cars are extremely safe and if anything wants to be safer it can be track design. I personally hate the sight of the circuit Autodromo Enzo e Dino Ferrari in its current form, The old, original track was a beast and was beautiful. A track can be made safe without butchering it and laying a chicane in all the fast spots.
Formula 1 will always be the pinnacle of motorsport for me. No other motorsport series comes close.

[wedge]

Drivers want to race in F1, not Mickey Mouse Championships like Super League & A1GP

Name another car that is lighter, brakes better, changes direction better than an F1 car.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Name another car that is lighter, brakes better, changes direction better than an F1 car.

Peel P50 :p

[garyshell]

F1 has been going backwards quickly since the introduction of grooved tyres, engine displacement reductions etc etc

Engineers should be told you have a box size this long by this wide by this high, now build a fast car with whatever engine, aero etc you want.


Oh good, you mean I am free to add a defuser to the rear of my car that will create a turbulent wake behind my car to destroy all the downforce on the car behind me? Sweet. Can I also include some of those fancy schmancy oil spray nozzles from the James Bond cars too?

Gary

[V12]

Can I also include some of those fancy schmancy oil spray nozzles from the James Bond cars too?

Might make an interesting spectacle :P probably more Wacky Races than F1, but still...

Coming back to reality, and being serious again, a motor racing series where designers were given a 3D box to work within, with a few other common-sense rules as well:

-safety stuff like crash-test, rollover protection, etc.
-declaring that the driver must be in control of the car to a reasonable degree (and defining "reasonable") at all times so no "robot" cars, however you want to phrase it and enforce it
-the car may not intentionally sabotage competitors progress or face being black flagged (so no tank guns, no dropping oil, nails or stingers, no Ben Hur-style wheel hubs etc.)

It may not make for the most "entertaining" racing, but surely some seriously exciting racing cars would emerge in this environment, and any drivers setting foot in them would arguably have to be far braver than the current breed of F1 driver. It would also be a very fertile breeding ground for alternative power technologies and that sort of thing, when compared to F1's half-hearted KERS thing.

I for one would watch it over the current entertainment-based F1. It wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea but I'm sure it could cater for a not insignificant fan base out there.

You get the feeling F1 in it's current form is trying to be all things to all people (which can never be achieved). Of course it's £a$y to $££ why that i$....

[ioan]

No offence intended ioan but that is a pretty pathetic reason. If that is the case though i could reasonably argue that v8supercars, the australian f3 series, world rally championship or my local autocross is the pinnacle of motorsport. Having said all of this I see what you're getting at.

No offence but that is a pathetic explanation to try to support your views.

If any of those tintop series you just enumerated would be faster than F1 you would be right, but they aren't.

[Hondo]

I believe F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport. why? because quite simply: It is the most watched motor sports event in the world. It gets the most media coverage of any motorsport etc etc. Its the pinnacle because not only do you need great drivers, engineers etc-but also because it is the BIGGEST motorsport. bar none.

Nascar is big in the USA but not world wide. many motorsport fans love touring cars or rallying or sports cars etc but they are not as big as F1.

The olympics are the biggest stage for their various sports-the olympics are the pinnacle of swimming, athletics or whatever. (not so the team sports granted but individual events definatly so)

why do we know F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport? look at the viewing figures. and compare them to the world stage competitor in motorsport-Le mans series, WTCC, MotoGP etc. nuff said.

Voted best answer so far by the thread creator.

The old Can Am series was pretty much an unlimited format, which helped to kill it with the costs. But at the time, it produced some awesome cars.

[El Libertador]

F1 leaves a lot to be desired, but it's still the pinnacle.

They're still the most impressive racing cars out there.

They're still the best drivers in the world.

They're still among the best racing circuits in the world.

The overtakes are still amazing.

It's still more popular than any other motor racing series or event.

It's still freaking awesome.

Do I want innovation? Oh, I do, of course I do. It's motorsport, not driversport. But at the same time, am I still interested in F1, and do I still make the effort to watch every race? Yep. Can't say that about anything else. I do regard the 24 Heures du Mans as the greatest race in the world, but the 19 runner-ups are all on the F1 calendar.

I still love it. Who cares about the past or this or that? We've got today and today's just fine. We're all still watching so it can't be that bad, can it?

[F1boat]

F1 leaves a lot to be desired, but it's still the pinnacle.

They're still the most impressive racing cars out there.

They're still the best drivers in the world.

They're still among the best racing circuits in the world.

The overtakes are still amazing.

It's still more popular than any other motor racing series or event.

It's still freaking awesome.

Do I want innovation? Oh, I do, of course I do. It's motorsport, not driversport. But at the same time, am I still interested in F1, and do I still make the effort to watch every race? Yep. Can't say that about anything else. I do regard the 24 Heures du Mans as the greatest race in the world, but the 19 runner-ups are all on the F1 calendar.

I still love it. Who cares about the past or this or that? We've got today and today's just fine. We're all still watching so it can't be that bad, can it?

Nothing to add really. I love how passionate are some fans here!!!

[jens]

Yes, F1 is still the pinnacle, because I haven't seen any other series having overtaken F1 by any criterias (laptimes, popularity, etc).

[Garry Walker]

No offence but that is a pathetic explanation to try to support your views.

If any of those tintop series you just enumerated would be faster than F1 you would be right, but they aren't.

IRL

[ioan]

IRL

You probably refer to top speeds on an oval where we don't know how a F1 car performs.

The only track where both series ran is Montreal, if I'm not mistaken. Who were faster around there?

[Garry Walker]

You probably refer to top speeds on an oval where we don't know how a F1 car performs.

The only track where both series ran is Montreal, if I'm not mistaken. Who were faster around there?

I dont think IRL has ever ran at Montreal, that was Nascar. IRL only does ovals, where the average speed is indeed much faster than in F1 :D

in any case, my comment was said half-jokingly, because out of all racing series, I think IRL is the biggest joke.

[ioan]

I dont think IRL has ever ran at Montreal, that was Nascar. IRL only does ovals, where the average speed is indeed much faster than in F1 :D

in any case, my comment was said half-jokingly, because out of all racing series, I think IRL is the biggest joke.

I must have mistaken IRL with ChampCar, both are nothing worth following. :D

I'm relieved to read that you were joking. :)

[F1boat]

IRL

I think that an Aguri car was tested on oval and it was faster than the Indycar. Unlike you I am a fan of IRL, but even Indycar is not close to F1. Nothing is.

[Roamy]

There really is not much to argue here with the world dominance by F1. Actually I think it will be better having the independents back in. The competition should be a lot closer. Bringing the driver back into focus should create even a larger fan base. I lost some interest when they were so technical 1 or 2 teams could win. I think now the series is wide open.
Couple of things they need
1. in car live streaming - you pay like 20 bucks a year per driver you want and you can watch the entire race from their in car camera.
2. clean the design up a bit so they start looking like real race cars again.

[El Libertador]

I think that an Aguri car was tested on oval and it was faster than the Indycar. Unlike you I am a fan of IRL, but even Indycar is not close to F1. Nothing is.

Yep, at Honda Thanks Day, they did stage a race at Twin Ring Motegi's 1.5-mile oval between an IRL car, the Super Aguri, and the Honda F1. The Super Aguri won the race, Honda P2, IRL way back.

I can't find the video on YouTube anymore (title and description were in Japanese so I'd really have no clue what to search), but I do recall the two F1 chassis having a sizeable lead over the IRL car. With the right setup, an F1 car could easily turn superfast laps on an oval. I suppose one could try to simulate it on a game such as rFactor.

Though going fast on an oval doesn't really prove that much, at leas not in my mind. But to each their own. I do like IRL and NASCAR in moderation, though not so much as motorsport but more as a weird brand of car-related entertainment. So they can be the pinnacle of that, I suppose :p :

[F1boat]

Yep, at Honda Thanks Day, they did stage a race at Twin Ring Motegi's 1.5-mile oval between an IRL car, the Super Aguri, and the Honda F1. The Super Aguri won the race, Honda P2, IRL way back.

I can't find the video on YouTube anymore (title and description were in Japanese so I'd really have no clue what to search), but I do recall the two F1 chassis having a sizeable lead over the IRL car. With the right setup, an F1 car could easily turn superfast laps on an oval. I suppose one could try to simulate it on a game such as rFactor.

Though going fast on an oval doesn't really prove that much, at leas not in my mind. But to each their own. I do like IRL and NASCAR in moderation, though not so much as motorsport but more as a weird brand of car-related entertainment. So they can be the pinnacle of that, I suppose :p :

Indycar is maybe the 2nd motorsport in my personal fanlist /after F1/.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Though going fast on an oval doesn't really prove that much, at leas not in my mind.

i think it supports the point that F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport actually.

That test shows how an F1 car which is not designed to go round an oval, goes better and faster round it than the IndyCar specifically designed to drive an oval.

So an F1 car is the best at not just the job it is designed to do (drive road courses) but better at something else as well (racing an oval)

Its a bit like Barcelona proving they are the best football club in the world by not just winning their own league (La Liga) but also another high profile competing league as well (eg Premier league)

[garyshell]

OMG, a car developed in a series without any cost limitations is faster than a car developed specifically to control costs! Say it isn't so. How can this possibly be. Alert the media!

This entire line of discussion is ridiculous at best.

Gary

[ioan]

OMG, a car developed in a series without any cost limitations is faster than a car developed specifically to control costs! Say it isn't so. How can this possibly be. Alert the media!

This entire line of discussion is ridiculous at best.

Gary

Since when had Super Aguri no budget limitations?! :rolleyes:

[F1boat]

Since when had Super Aguri no budget limitations?! :rolleyes:

Well, to be honest I am pretty sure that the Super Aguri has a bigger budget even than the best Indy teams, but that only cements the reputation of F1 as the pinnacle.

[El Libertador]

OMG, a car developed in a series without any cost limitations is faster than a car developed specifically to control costs! Say it isn't so. How can this possibly be. Alert the media!

This entire line of discussion is ridiculous at best.

Gary

So then Indy can't be the pinnacle. They set limitations because they don't want advancement or top speeds. The cars have gotten slower. Cost cutting is the priority. Instead of making cars safer so they can go faster, they just bring out the same Back-Breaking Special and make it go 12 mph/lap slower than the old chassis around Indy. A series that is about building the cheapest cars and not the best (fastest, safest, etc) cannot be the pinnacle.

Which isn't a knock on the IRL. It's not their goal to be the pinnacle. They fill their niche, like every other sport, and I enjoy them all for what they are.

[garyshell]

OMG, a car developed in a series without any cost limitations is faster than a car developed specifically to control costs! Say it isn't so. How can this possibly be. Alert the media!

This entire line of discussion is ridiculous at best.

Gary


Since when had Super Aguri no budget limitations?! :rolleyes:


Which part of "a series without any cost limitations" didn't you understand?

Gary

[garyshell]

So then Indy can't be the pinnacle. They set limitations because they don't want advancement or top speeds. The cars have gotten slower. Cost cutting is the priority. Instead of making cars safer so they can go faster, they just bring out the same Back-Breaking Special and make it go 12 mph/lap slower than the old chassis around Indy. A series that is about building the cheapest cars and not the best (fastest, safest, etc) cannot be the pinnacle.

Which isn't a knock on the IRL. It's not their goal to be the pinnacle. They fill their niche, like every other sport, and I enjoy them all for what they are.

I never claimed they were the pinnacle. I think that claim rightfully belongs to F1. I just think the discussion of an F1 car vs and IRL car was ridiculous.

I too, watch and enjoy BOTH series.

Gary

[ioan]

Which part of "a series without any cost limitations" didn't you understand?

Gary

The part about :
a car developed in a series without any cost limitations

You should learn that even though in F1 some teams have rather large budgets (like Honda 2008) many of the teams were living from one day to the other and even went out of business because a lack of funding, just like SAF1 who still were faster than the IRL racer.

Any other smart remarks?

[garyshell]

The part about :

You should learn that even though in F1 some teams have rather large budgets (like Honda 2008) many of the teams were living from one day to the other and even went out of business because a lack of funding, just like SAF1 who still were faster than the IRL racer.

Any other smart remarks?


Maybe you should learn that even the lesser teams in F1 had development budgets that dwarfed those of any of the IRL teams. So where is the surprise that the F1 car was faster? Of course it was.

Any other smart remarks from me? No, but thanks for the compliment. I am awaiting the first smart one from you. This entire discussion of F1 being faster than the IRL is just silly. The two series are so vastly different in every way that no meaningful comparison can ever be made.

Gary

[Kevincal]

F1 is still the pinnacle but it has been slipping downward the past few years... I think this coming year will be better though.

Indy, Nascar etc... BOOOOOOORING. I get bored with F1 too though, just not as quickly. I can watch F1 for a good hour or 2 before I'm bored. Nascar and Indy I can only watch 10-15 minutes and then I'm thoroughly bored.

There are 2 other forms of racing that I think are just as exciting as F1, Moto/Supercross and Sprint cars... Superbikes have great racing too, Rally is ok, better than Nascar and Indy. Drag racing = big yawn.

[Garry Walker]

I think that an Aguri car was tested on oval and it was faster than the Indycar. Unlike you I am a fan of IRL, but even Indycar is not close to F1. Nothing is.

Do you have a link for that?

[Malbec]

You should learn that even though in F1 some teams have rather large budgets (like Honda 2008) many of the teams were living from one day to the other and even went out of business because a lack of funding, just like SAF1 who still were faster than the IRL racer.

Any other smart remarks?

Not a smart example.

SAF1 used the Arrows A23 chassis which was so expensive to develop it put Arrows out of business. Then they used Honda chassis which as you've said had one of the biggest budgets in F1 behind them.

You can't compare F1 to a spec series like IRL which is/was run to allow cheap entry.

On a technical level I'd argue that ALMS/Le Mans is equally interesting with non-petrol power-sources encouraged intelligently. WRC is as difficult if not more so from a drivers point of view.

[Sonic]

Do you have a link for that?

Just found it on you tube. Type in super aguri vs irl and you'll see all. Standing start and the Aguri obliterated the IRL.

[AndyRAC]

Not a smart example.

SAF1 used the Arrows A23 chassis which was so expensive to develop it put Arrows out of business. Then they used Honda chassis which as you've said had one of the biggest budgets in F1 behind them.

You can't compare F1 to a spec series like IRL which is/was run to allow cheap entry.

On a technical level I'd argue that ALMS/Le Mans is equally interesting with non-petrol power-sources encouraged intelligently. WRC is as difficult if not more so from a drivers point of view.

Agree about the ALMS/LMS, probably more varied technology, no control tyre, a more interesting series all round.

F1 is the pinnacle of open wheel racing, and being cynical, the pinnacle of sports entertainment....

[Rollo]

Do you have a link for that?

Sure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C51Ea_OeIaA

This is also interesting as well:
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/07/21/honda-f1-sets-land-speed-records-at-bonneville/

[ioan]

Not a smart example.

SAF1 used the Arrows A23 chassis which was so expensive to develop it put Arrows out of business. Then they used Honda chassis which as you've said had one of the biggest budgets in F1 behind them.

All of them outdated chassis.

[Malbec]

All of them outdated chassis.

So what? the IRL chassis hardly changes from year to year does it?

[garyshell]

Not a smart example.

SAF1 used the Arrows A23 chassis which was so expensive to develop it put Arrows out of business. Then they used Honda chassis which as you've said had one of the biggest budgets in F1 behind them.

You can't compare F1 to a spec series like IRL which is/was run to allow cheap entry.


All of them outdated chassis.


Which has what to do with how much it cost to develop the car? If you remember that was what the discussion was when you brought the SAF1 team up. If the vintage of the chassis is now in play, the IRL one was (and still is) a bit long in the tooth.

Gary

[F1boat]

On a technical level I'd argue that ALMS/Le Mans is equally interesting with non-petrol power-sources encouraged intelligently. WRC is as difficult if not more so from a drivers point of view.

But there are two or three series only of Le Mans racing in which the competition is so so. The LMS were decent this year because the best teams didn't participate. The ALMS was a battle between two sister cars. And we have also FIA GT and Grand-Am. Sportscars are too fragmented to be the pinnacle.

[wedge]

But there are two or three series only of Le Mans racing in which the competition is so so. The LMS were decent this year because the best teams didn't participate. The ALMS was a battle between two sister cars. And we have also FIA GT and Grand-Am. Sportscars are too fragmented to be the pinnacle.

LMP is the pinnacle.

Grand Am is a joke.

[ioan]

LMP is the pinnacle.

Grand Am is a joke.

Have to agree.

[F1boat]

I dunno. No matter how advanced two prototypes are, the battle in Grand-Am seemed more interesting than the ALMS championship, although I was cheering a lot for Gil de Ferran.