WRC goes S1600T, what now for IRC?

[RS]

From 2011 onwards, manufacturers will not be able to homologate "traditional" S2000 cars but only "S1600Ts".

So which route will IRC go? Stick with the old formula, move to the new one or change to a different one altogether (R3T?)

[Tom206wrc]

Interesting question and thread... :confused:

[Simmi]

I suppose this is the crossroads now. In that car manufacturers can decide which route the want to take for relatively similar budgets and pick between the WRC or IRC. You would figure the WRC holds the most commercial value. I'm sure through logistics and development it will be more expensive. But it is much more of a coherent championship than the IRC with all rounds counting towards points etc.

But if the IRC wants these new cars (Citroen/Prodrive project) they will need to open up their regs. It might be a case of evolve or die...

[MJW]

Rather simplistically and naiievely I would say that no manufacturer actually has a 1.6T - Citroen (and I guess Prodrive Mini) will have one, but as it stands IF IRC stick their ground to S2000 it could leave WRC with only Citroen DS3 1.6T. Therefor if no other manufacturer other Citroen produces a 1.6T the WRC dies........

[pettersolberg29]

Can someone clarify for me as I don't understand...at all.

S2000 is dying for 2011, meaning ALL cars will be 1600T, correct? As an amateur like myself, surely S2000 is better than 1600T as it is a higher number? Or does the Turbo make that big a diference? What will the order be of cars in 2011? 1600T then S2000 then WRC then GpN is it?

Also, the new S2000 Cup in 2010 will involve what? And how does the S-WRC fit into all this as well as the Super 2000 Cup for Teams?

I'm so darn confused. It's been a long week...

[pettersolberg29]

Sorry, I get the S-WRC is for drivers, while the other one is for teams. Bit slow on my front!

[Allyc85]

Rather simplistically and naiievely I would say that no manufacturer actually has a 1.6T - Citroen (and I guess Prodrive Mini) will have one, but as it stands IF IRC stick their ground to S2000 it could leave WRC with only Citroen DS3 1.6T. Therefor if no other manufacturer other Citroen produces a 1.6T the WRC dies........

Loads of manufactuers are creating small, turbo powered engines for their cars, its the future. They have reduced emisions and better MPG while keeping the same amount of power.

VW have already got a very good 1.6 GT engine while ford are very advanced with the development of their own :)

[MJW]

Loads of manufactuers are creating small, turbo powered engines for their cars, its the future. They have reduced emisions and better MPG while keeping the same amount of power.

VW have already got a very good 1.6 GT engine while ford are very advanced with the development of their own :)

I meant rally engine - sure small capacity petrol (turbo) engines are defiantely the way forward. The 2 litre engine is for the history books. My concern was / is which manufacturers WILL join WRC? It should be OK if VW drop the 1.6T engine in a Skoda, or any VW brand, Mini, Citroen, and even Ford too.

[Simmi]

And I suppose even if the manu's did opt against the 1.6T the FIA just remove the homologation ruling. In which case the whole thing could have been implemented with ease 3 years earlier!

But I hope the teams will embrace 1.6T and all move in a collective single direction. In the short-term the FIA did the best thing by not penalising the existing manufacturers. Get them all competing in the WRC and then start fiddling about to improve the regs.

[RS]

VAG don't have a 1.6T, but they have 1.4T they could bore out or 1.8T they could sleeve down.

The issue here is that from 2011 manufacturers cannot homologate new 2 litre S2000s so IRC will have to change formula or use only old cars.

[Simmi]

My confusion was that I thought the homologation laws from 2011 mandating 1.6T was just for the WRC. But is it in fact the FIA demanding this for all of rallying. Hence no one has a choice?

[RS]

My confusion was that I thought the homologation laws from 2011 mandating 1.6T was just for the WRC. But is it in fact the FIA demanding this for all of rallying. Hence no one has a choice?

Correct!

I wonder why...

[Helstar]

The issue here is that from 2011 manufacturers cannot homologate new 2 litre S2000s so IRC will have to change formula or use only old cars.
Megaidiocy ... as usual.

S2000 is the best formula now ! I hope IRC says ok FU we keep going on, you bury your own rally championship alone

[Macd]

Correct!

I wonder why...

money money money.

[Rallyper]

Megaidiocy ... as usual.

S2000 is the best formula now ! I hope IRC says ok FU we keep going on, you bury your own rally championship alone

In a couple of years or from 2011, there will be no IRC only WRC. IRC has no carmaterial except from older and older S2000 cars and that means it will die sooner or later after 2011.

The manus has to adapt to the new regulations meaning they all in the end have cars for WRC.

It´s not money, it´s more environmental thing...

[Gordini]

Where does it say that there will be no new S2000 homologations from 2011 and onwards ?

[Buzz Lightyear]

In a couple of years or from 2011, there will be no IRC only WRC. IRC has no carmaterial except from older and older S2000 cars and that means it will die sooner or later after 2011.

The manus has to adapt to the new regulations meaning they all in the end have cars for WRC.

It´s not money, it´s more environmental thing...

IRC can do whatever it wants. They can run 1.6T.

[Barreis]

I agree.. They can rename it to the Eurosport challange.. It will be equal publicity.. 1.6T should be allowed in any championship..

[Rallyper]

I agree.. They can rename it to the Eurosport challange.. It will be equal publicity.. 1.6T should be allowed in any championship..

I wouldn´t think FIA will let IRC continue in current form (a worldwide serie) as equal with WRC. Maybe as European championship (ERC) possibly...

[Barreis]

WTCC was started by Eurosport events so FIA won't tell anything against IRC.. It's only preasure on manufacturers..

[Rallyper]

WTCC was started by Eurosport events so FIA won't tell anything against IRC.. It's only preasure on manufacturers..

OK let´s wait and see... only it takes a couple of years. ;)

[Helstar]

I wouldn´t think FIA will let IRC continue in current form (a worldwide serie) as equal with WRC. Maybe as European championship (ERC) possibly...
As stated above FIA can't do anything ! If (example) every manufacturers leave WRC and go IRC, then WRC championship is dead ;) !

[Simmi]

As stated above FIA can't do anything ! If (example) every manufacturers leave WRC and go IRC, then WRC championship is dead ;) !

Why would they all move to the irc? With the new regs if you want to go rallying you have to make a 1.6T car. Surely the car needs FIA homologation to be viable? The budgets are similar so why would you then choose to go to the lesser irc?

People who still think the irc is going to take over in the longterm. Well now would probably be a good time to wake up.

[RS]

I hope that manufacturers will be allowed to homologate the new S1600Ts without having to sign up for the WRC, otherwise the FIA have just done the sport of rallying in general a great disservice.

[Helstar]

Why would they all move to the irc?
I wrote "EXAMPLE", figures...

[Rally Power]

So it’ll be S2000/1.6T…finally after almost 3 years FIA decide it!

Sure there are still some doubts – level of 1.6T engine tuning, existence of aerodynamic package, etc – but setting a definitive guideline it’s crucial in order to attract new manufacturers.

Expanding S2000/1.6T category to all rally international series can also be a major step into WRC and IRC complementary, witch seems to be a newly FIA concern and somehow could be linked with the 2011 calendar presentation delay.

Rally future will only get damage from the ISC/Eurosport rivalry, so it’s more than time to establish the necessary adjustments in order to have both organizers working together on one strong international rally series.

[Barreis]

ISC can not do what Eurosport events can and that's live show 'cos nobody wants to buy it..

[Rally Power]

ISC can not do what Eurosport events can and that's live show 'cos nobody wants to buy it..

...even so, ISC has the WRC label.


A bit of humour from the google translation of 2011 S2000/1.6T article by rallyemagazine.de

"The Ford Fiesta will be the last with two-liter S2000 vacuum cleaner. The FIA decided at the last meeting of the World Council that in 2011 only to be homologated S2000 cars that are powered by a 1.6-liter turbo engine. Learn more about technical specifications of the WRC's successor will be announced in the coming days.
Simultaneously, the World Council reaffirmed that allowed both Super2000 variants (suckers and Turbo), and Group N cars in the WRC in 2011 and regional championships start."

:D

[pucky54]

They definately have to rename the cars then. A 1.6 Liter-Turbo is no Super 2000 anymore.

[Simmi]

They definately have to rename the cars then. A 1.6 Liter-Turbo is no Super 2000 anymore.

Yeah agreed. Obviously the upgraded cars will just be renamed WRC's. But the entry level stuff needs a new name really.

[AndyRAC]

ISC can not do what Eurosport events can and that's live show 'cos nobody wants to buy it..

Exactly! I do wonder whether the WRC has fallen so far that it impossible to get back in the mainstream. For a lot of countries, Motorsport is F1. End of!!

[Sulland]

If there will be no more homologations and upgrades of the current fleet of S2000 cars, it would make sense to convert them to 1600T spec, but not WRCar.

Do FIA have thought about this, or will they ditch 5-6 manufacturers of good rallycars ?

[Allar]

I think R4 is way to go for IRC. i hope R4 isnt only EVO and Impreza.

[Bobcat]

I think R4 is way to go for IRC. i hope R4 isnt only EVO and Impreza.
Maybe it's time for the new Focus RS AWD!? ;)

[Mirek]

They have no suitable 4x4 stock system. I very much doubt they would invest into expensive development of something close to Evo or Impreza. Also there is no suitable production engine in Ford portfolio. 2.5T I5 isn't useful for rallying.

[OldF]

]2.5T I5 isn't useful for rallying.
It seems to be possible by the 2010 group N regulations.

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/E39B75C41C619A90C125774C002CE6F4/$FILE/254%20(10-11).pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/E39B75C41C619A90C125774C002CE6F4/$FILE/254%20%2810-11%29.pdf)
page 4, b) supercharged engines.

[Mirek]

Yes, but Ford 2.5T is not supercharged but turbocharged.

[Steve Boyd]

The FIA definition of "supercharging" includes both mechanically driven superchargers and turbochargers. See 2.3.2 on page 4 here:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/018A1FDC760D10B1C1257690003DA7D6/$FILE/251%20(2010)-111209.pdf

[OldF]

]Yes, but Ford 2.5T is not supercharged but turbocharged.

Yeah sorry, I mixed the definition of super versus turbo charging as wkikipedia also does.

Some examples from wikipedia:
A supercharger is an air compressor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_compressor) used for forced induction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_induction) of an internal combustion engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine) .
The greater mass flow-rate provides more oxygen to support combustion than would be available in a naturally-aspirated engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturally-aspirated_engine), which allows more fuel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel) to be provided and more work to be done per cycle, increasing the power output of the engine.
Power for the unit can come mechanically by a belt, gear, shaft, or chain connected to the engine's crankshaft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crankshaft).
When power comes from an exhaust gas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas) turbine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbine) a supercharger is known as a turbosupercharger[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercharger#cite_note-0) - typically referred to simply as a turbocharger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharger). Common usage restricts the term supercharger (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/supercharger) to mechanically driven units.
And…..
Supercharger drive types

Superchargers are further defined according to their method of drive (mechanical—or turbine).
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Supercharger&action=edit&section=8)] Mechanical
Belt (V-belt, Synchronous belt, Flat belt)[/*:m:1sd9hx82]
Direct drive[/*:m:1sd9hx82]
Gear drive[/*:m:1sd9hx82]
Chain drive[/*:m:1sd9hx82][edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Supercharger&action=edit&section=9)] Exhaust gas turbines
Axial turbine[/*:m:1sd9hx82]
Radial turbine[/*:m:1sd9hx82]And……
Supercharging versus turbocharging

Positive-displacement superchargers may absorb as much as a third of the total crankshaft power of the engine, and, in many applications, are less efficient than turbochargers. In applications for which engine response and power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_%28physics%29) are more important than any other consideration, such as top-fuel dragsters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Fuel) and vehicles used in tractor pulling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tractor_pulling) competitions, positive-displacement superchargers are very common.
There are three main categories of superchargers for automotive use:
Centrifugal turbochargers — driven from exhaust gases.[/*:m:1sd9hx82]
Centrifugal superchargers — driven directly by the engine via a belt-drive.[/*:m:1sd9hx82]
Positive displacement pumps — such as the Roots, Twin Screw(Lysholm), and TVS(Eaton) blowers.[/*:m:1sd9hx82]

[Bobcat]

]They have no suitable 4x4 stock system. I very much doubt they would invest into expensive development of something close to Evo or Impreza. Also there is no suitable production engine in Ford portfolio. 2.5T I5 isn't useful for rallying.
Ford is working on a new Focus RS but instead of using the current car’s 2.5-liter five-cylinder turbo and advanced RevoKnuckle front-wheel drive system and Quaife differential, the next-generation of the high-performance Focus RS will feature a revolutionary hybrid system offering the option of all-wheel drive (AWD). The hybrid system will team a 2.0-liter four-cylinder turbo Ford EcoBoost engine, peak output should remain around the 300 horsepower mark. As strange as it may seem that Ford would make such a radical departure for its Focus RS, it’s a move Mitsubishi is planning to do for the next-generation of its Lancer Evolution series, the Evo XI. ;)

[Mirek]

Ford is working on a new Focus RS but instead of using the current car’s 2.5-liter five-cylinder turbo and advanced RevoKnuckle front-wheel drive system and Quaife differential, the next-generation of the high-performance Focus RS will feature a revolutionary hybrid system offering the option of all-wheel drive (AWD). The hybrid system will team a 2.0-liter four-cylinder turbo Ford EcoBoost engine, peak output should remain around the 300 horsepower mark. As strange as it may seem that Ford would make such a radical departure for its Focus RS, it’s a move Mitsubishi is planning to do for the next-generation of its Lancer Evolution series, the Evo XI. ;)

That would be great for sure! Can You provide source?


The FIA definition of "supercharging" includes both mechanically driven superchargers and turbochargers. See 2.3.2 on page 4 here:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/018A1FDC760D10B1C1257690003DA7D6/$FILE/251%20(2010)-111209.pdf

Sorry, my fault. I should read what they consider as supercharging first ;)


It seems to be possible by the 2010 group N regulations.

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/E39B75C41C619A90C125774C002CE6F4/$FILE/254%20(10-11).pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/E39B75C41C619A90C125774C002CE6F4/$FILE/254%20%2810-11%29.pdf)
page 4, b) supercharged engines.

Found 2009 version of Art.254 and there is same sentence. It must be limited elsewhere, otherwise I would expect Subaru to use their 2.5 US/EU engine.

[Rally Power]

If there will be no more homologations and upgrades of the current fleet of S2000 cars, it would make sense to convert them to 1600T spec, but not WRCar.

Do FIA have thought about this, or will they ditch 5-6 manufacturers of good rallycars ?

At last WMSC it was already debated the re-homologation of pre-2011 S2000 cars with 1.6T engines.

But it's hard to believe that any actual S2000 manu would invest in such process instead of developing a brand new WRC1.6T. Only if WRC registration will be mandatory to homologate WRC1.6T cars (that would be strange, as it's already knowed that WRC1.6T cars will be allowed in others FIA regional series).

[HaCo]

For season start, M-Sport wants to finish 10 Fiesta WRC's!
http://www.rallye-magazin.de/index.php?id=d15&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=36253&cHash=401c04b95f

[White Sauron]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85856

've never liked this Quesnel. A real drama queen, always in hysteria if something's going not according to his plan.

[RS]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85856

've never liked this Quesnel. A real drama queen, always in hysteria if something's going not according to his plan.

I was just about to come on this thread and post the same information and the same opinion!

Quesnel is throwing his toys out of the pram when instead they should concentrate on developing the car. There is nothing wrong with Kronos; they won a world championship with Loeb.

Maybe he wants privately run Puntos banned from the championship too after Rossetti's performance in Madeira so far :D

[HaCo]

And Proton has to quit too then?

[ProRally]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85856

've never liked this Quesnel. A real drama queen, always in hysteria if something's going not according to his plan.

Maybe he needs more tissues like when he cried like a baby in Le Mans.... :D

[bluuford]

yeah, What can he say to his bosses? Le Mans... total loss.. total shame. IRC does not look good in Manufacturers. if Skoda ends here 1,2 and Meeke is third and next best Peugeot in 5th then Skoda should be champion if I calculated correctly. Does not look good in drivers championship as well. So, only double will be WRC. Does not look very bright compared to the previous years.
EDIT: Sorry, I miscalculated. There is still very slim chance for Peugeot. If Skoda takes 1,2 here and Peugeot 3rd and 5th, then they must finish all remaining rounds 1,2 to win title. Otherwise, game over.

[alleskids]

Quesnel is angry because Skoda is cheating, by being a factory against privateer teams. IRC is for privateers, so factorie teams should stay out of it. He forgot that Peugeot Spain in 2007 and Kronos in 2008 and 2009 had large support from the Peugeot Sport, just like Ogier had in Monte Carlo :)

[Mirek]

IRC is for privateers, so factorie teams should stay out of it.

Is written where? ;) Anyway what is the definition of factory team? That Kronos thing is just fooling others and good excuse like we saw in 2006. It's ridiculous. Quesnel is bad looser. Everything is ok when they're doing something but suddenly bad when others start to do same. Still same story like with team orders...

And it's especially funny when boss of Citroën/Peugeot complains that others spend more. They led the spiral of costs to sky high in any class they attended. They should rather listen to their drivers and customers...

[Motorsportfun]

And Proton has to quit too then?

No, because is not a problem for Kronos guys :D

[HaCo]

]Anyway what is the definition of factory team?

Exactly. Isn't Mikkelsen backed by M-Sport as well?

[WRC1]

bad behaivor mr quensel....peugeot is a bad looser, last year skoda was there as a works team also...but kris meeke had a great run and everything was ok for them???

they have 2 really great drivers (meeke, magalhaes) and if they have a clean run they can still beat (works) skodas, as seen at acores

it is written nowhere that IRC is only for privat teams, i hope eurosport is strong enough to tell mr quensel: go and make your car faster and search for one or two more strong drivers to have a team that can beat the works skodas and STOP blaming the others!

reg

wrc1

[ProRally]

As if Kronos is not factory supported..... Mr Quesnel in Ypres was the whole time there as he was/is in charge

[Ucci]

This is not a fair statement from Mr.Quesnel, indeed yust a short look few years back reveals a lot of factory support made from Citroën Sport Department to private team(s).
And there is also one fact, that in S2000 class private cars, which are updatet with new components are definitely on same level as factory cars. Yust remember last year Alpi Orientali in Italy, when Travaglia (private P207)beat factory drivers like Andreucci&Rossetti. Of course, you must also have perfect tyres, some luck and a fast driver.....And this should be Quesnel's concern, not a threat of leaving IRC....

[bt52b]

Will be interesting to see if there is any 'performance balancing' between 2.0l and 1.6l turbo cars, and which will be allowed have the edge. This is a nightmare in the WTCC.

I'd bet the weight of the 1.6l turbo cars will be 'adjusted' if they are slower than the 2.0l cars.

[Camelopard]

Maybe he needs more tissues like when he cried like a baby in Le Mans.... :D


Is that right? Imagine what all the ford haters on this forum would have said if it had been malcolm....................... :p

[ProRally]

Is that right? Imagine what all the ford haters on this forum would have said if it had been malcolm....................... :p

Maybe so, I am not a Peugeot hater, nor any other make, but last year when Meeke won IRC, it was all happy faces and bla bla bla.... but now when they (Peugeot) can't follow the Skoda's it is , 'If Skoda continues with "factory" team then Peugeot will leave IRC'.
Said it before, but when Meeke won IRC last year (and good for him and the team), what was the difference between factory team and factory supported team ?

We all remember a Mr Loeb driving a 'factory supported' car in WRC and got the title. Which team was running.... o wait it is the same as Meeke won IRC with...

Just feel it is weird comment Mr Quesnel made, but hey he is THE BOSS of Citroën and Peugeot and we are just followers of the sport.

And regarding the LMS comment, also there they where going to blow away the competition, the only thing they blown was their engines.... AUDI took 1/2/3 and both where 'factory' teams.

Fact is that 207S2000 is getting 'old', the newer generation cars seem to go much better/faster, which is normal way I think.

Just my 2 eurocents..... :D :D

[eloyf1]

And regarding the LMS comment, also there they where going to blow away the competition, the only thing they blown was their engines.... AUDI took 1/2/3 and both where 'factory' teams.
Don't forget how Quesnel was whining last year because he thought some parts of the Audis were illegal, and he threatened of denouncing the final results from Le Mans 24h if Audi won... But as Peugeot was the winner...

And about works & privateers, it is really pathetic that the same guy that run to Oreca boxes during the 24h because it was 908s last chance of fighting against the Audis, and finished by crying, is now criticizing disloyal works efforts... We should before discuss about "false privateers".

[RS]

Just feel it is weird comment Mr Quesnel made, but hey he is THE BOSS of Citroën and Peugeot

Maybe that is the problem? Maybe Peugeot Sport needs a seperate boss who can keep his eye on the ball.

Fact is, even if works Skoda were not in IRC, the car would still be developed and Peugeot need to do the same.


Fact is that 207S2000 is getting 'old', the newer generation cars seem to go much better/faster, which is normal way I think.

Punto is "pretty old now" and that led in Madeira :D

[Sulland]

Maybe that is the problem? Maybe Peugeot Sport needs a seperate boss who can keep his eye on the ball.

Fact is, even if works Skoda were not in IRC, the car would still be developed and Peugeot need to do the same.



Punto is "pretty old now" and that led in Madeira :D

On asphalt the Abarth is still fast enough, but on gravel it will struggle against the newer cars with better and longer suspension I think.

[Sulland]

Do anyone know more of what IRC will do in 2012 and 13, will they keep S2000 or swap to something else ?

[Mitch555]

iRally has talked of a new formula coming up, developed by the FIA. I think it was their Azores pre event show or something?

[RS]

iRally has talked of a new formula coming up, developed by the FIA. I think it was their Azores pre event show or something?

Yes, it's a cheaper version of S2000. Like R3 but with 4wd added.

I guess IRC will wait for this formula as neither Skoda or Peugeot have 1.6T S2000 cars. I think the FIA really made a mess of the new classes, as the RRCs are so close in spec and price to a WRCar I don't really see the point in them.

[Sulland]

So is the guess that IRC will do S2000NA also in 2012?

Maybe a smart thing with all the cars around.