IRL's Road To Indy

[DanicaFan]

The Indy Racing League has developed a new program that defines a ladder system for young drivers to improve thier skills and participate in the IZOD IndyCar Series. The program is called "Road To Indy".

The new program will define this developmental ladder system to incorporate the Cooper Tires Presents the USF2000 National Championship powered by Mazda, the Star Mazda Championship presented by Goodyear, and the Firestone Indy Lights.

Drivers from each series will be able to progress to the next level through participation in programs set by each series or the Indy Racing League, which will sanction the USF2000 National Championship races. All the series participate in a variety of tracks, (ovals, road/street courses). Drivers and teams of these series will be able to showcase thier skills in front of IZOD IndyCar teams next year.

This gives drivers a clearer path on how to become a full time IndyCar driver. Im sure all teams from all series will be looking hard at drivers and hoping to fill spots with top notch drivers.

[NickFalzone]

This is good news for AOW if you ask me particularly since they will be having the same kind of mix that the IRL has of ovals/roads/streets. Now the bigger question is whether these drivers will truly go on to be hired as IndyCar/Lights drivers, or foreign buy a rides will still predominate.

[Lousada]

Will the IRL actively participate in this by giving talented drivers tests in 'higher' cars, support them, etc?

[NickFalzone]

Lousada, one would think, although I'm not really sure how the ladder works. Are Star Mazda and F2000 considered parallel or slightly below Lights?

Cavin today said that this will be good for promoters, because these 2 series will add additional sponsors and races for IRL weekends.

[Chamoo]

Lousada, one would think, although I'm not really sure how the ladder works. Are Star Mazda and F2000 considered parallel or slightly below Lights?

Cavin today said that this will be good for promoters, because these 2 series will add additional sponsors and races for IRL weekends.

I believe the plan is that drivers should progress from USF2000 to Star Mazda to Indy Lights to Izod Indycars.

[Jag_Warrior]

As Yogi might say, "sounds like deja vu all over again." But maybe it'll go somewhere this time.

[Marbles]

It's a great idea but I would also like to see a Can-Am scholarship system to assist against well-financed Europeans and South Americans.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well, CART tried this and ignored the guys coming out of Atlantics and Mazda's. The IRL has had Indylights and the old Infiniti Pro series and did a slightly better job of taking guys from there BUT the best drivers in North America all seem to be heading towards stockcars. That or in sprints and midgets and going to NASCAR since the cars are easier to adapt to than the modern IRL cars.

I hope the wingless IRL cars coming are going to change that...

[Blancvino]

Will the IRL actively participate in this by giving talented drivers tests in 'higher' cars, support them, etc?

It's all about money ... you got it, you race. This seems to be the reality in auto racing today. Do you think the IRL has the extra cash laying around to to support these upstarts?

[SarahFan]

Well, CART tried this and ignored the guys coming out of Atlantics and Mazda's. The IRL has had Indylights and the old Infiniti Pro series and did a slightly better job of taking guys from there BUT the best drivers in North America all seem to be heading towards stockcars. That or in sprints and midgets and going to NASCAR since the cars are easier to adapt to than the modern IRL cars.

I hope the wingless IRL cars coming are going to change that...

will 2010 bring new chassis design for the support series also?

[spiritone]

It's not the ladder thats the problem, it's the owners. How many drivers have pimske and ganass ever hired from a support series.

[Mark in Oshawa]

will 2010 bring new chassis design for the support series also?


THat is a Million dollar question. Likely in time....but not in time for the IRL to make their switch likely.

[spiritone]

The indycar series will never go anywhere until one of the top teams hires and developes an american driver. What's the point of having a ladder series when the the top teams will not hire an american driver anyway. Sorry marco doesn't qualify as a top driver and graham has yet to show anything more than potential.

[spiritone]

At least in the cart days you had andretti and unser who were with top teams that were fighting for the championship. To bring the series back you need the top teams committing to bring along american drivers. Can you really see that happening?

That is a big reason (along with the ugly car)why the irl is going to continue to struggle.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think it is a rather provincial notion in a sense that you NEED a top American driver. I think Americans accept guys like PT and Scott Dixon. However, what Americans I think do want is for an American driver to at least have a hope of making it. When your main American "star" is promoted partially because of how she looks in a bikini, you have a problem.

Graham and Marco are there partially through nepotism, even tho in Graham's case he is not driving for his dad. They could make it I think in time. Both are so young....

[Chamoo]

I think it is a rather provincial notion in a sense that you NEED a top American driver. I think Americans accept guys like PT and Scott Dixon. However, what Americans I think do want is for an American driver to at least have a hope of making it. When your main American "star" is promoted partially because of how she looks in a bikini, you have a problem.

Graham and Marco are there partially through nepotism, even tho in Graham's case he is not driving for his dad. They could make it I think in time. Both are so young....

I think the drivers Americans have a tough time grasping are the Hideki Mutoh's and E.J. Viso's, but Mark is right, I think Scott Dixon, Tomas Scheckter, Ryan Briscoe are all easily acceptable by Americans.

I do still think if you had Graham, RHR, and Danica in the top 5 in point in 2010, it would make a difference, and it's quite possible.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think the drivers Americans have a tough time grasping are the Hideki Mutoh's and E.J. Viso's, but Mark is right, I think Scott Dixon, Tomas Scheckter, Ryan Briscoe are all easily acceptable by Americans.

I do still think if you had Graham, RHR, and Danica in the top 5 in point in 2010, it would make a difference, and it's quite possible.

Danica was 5th in points, but I still cant figure out how that happened. She just hung around and got results and stayed on the track and in a weaker IRL series than we are used to, that was enough. That, and guys like Tomas, Tony Kanaan and others were going for broke and did more often and not. The concept of points racing really isn't big in the IRL, and I am thankful for it....

I getting back to the topic at hand tho, drivers with charisma and a good image to the American public can get attention. One only has to look at Helio's popularity, Dario's popularity (people in NASCAR loved him when he was there), or how people loved Alex Zanardi back in the day. I do think more North American names would be the best solution, but the issue of where the driver is from is a false road when you consider the stupidity and mismanagement of OW racing. THAT is why the series is where it is. The nationality of the driver's is a red herring to a large extent.

[Scotty G.]

The nationality of the driver's is a red herring to a large extent.


Sorry, but I think that is incorrect.

This sport DESPERATELY needs American stars and Americans in top rides. It will never go anywhere and be anything like it used to be, without that.

Of course it all starts with the two top teams. And Penske and Ganassi's track record with American drivers in Indy Cars in the past decade, is laughably lame.

[harvick#1]

I think thats incorrect Scott.

just because its an American sport doesn't mean that you need top American stars


at least the IRL does have a few American drivers, though none are major threats, Marco seems to get worse every year he drives.

if Ryan gets a drive at AGR, you might see a good American driver that can challenge for the win every year.

you should like the sport for the sport itself, not because there is an American in the series.

[El Libertador]

Couldn't care less if a driver of my nationality was on the grid or not. I think it's silly that so many do. Does being of a certain nationality make anyone a more talented driver, better human being, more promotable, more deserving of a ride, etc? It doesn't. We're who we are, no matter where on the map we were born.

Defined ladder? Cool. It's good for the young drivers to have an approved way into a series that's not been easy to get into.

However, I'm not sure defining a "Road to Indy" changes anything. You'll always have drivers from all over the open-wheel world looking to get in, and if they have the talent and/or the funding, they'll get the rides, and rightfully so.

And that's the way I like it. I don't want to just see FILS' finest in the IRL. I'd like to see a mix of the most talented and most promising drivers who want to be in the IRL from all over the world and from all different series. Why only hire from one series if a better talent is in another? Why only hire from one nation if a driver born in another is better?

Either way, good to see some support for the ladder system, I'm sure the drivers in those series are appreciative. I'm pleased with the IndyCar grid all things considered.

[nigelred5]

Like it, believe it or not, but the U.S., and more importantly it's television market, it's sports fans, and it's advertisers paying the bills that make the racing happen ARE a very parochial society. Why is formula 1 barely a blip on the sports radar in this country? Because no one cares. There are no american drivers, there are no American auto manufacturers, and until I see them show up at the track in March, there are no American teams in F1. Noticed what has been happening to attendance and TV ratings since Toyota showed up in NASCAR? Trucks are on life support, Nationwide has become practice time for cup drivers, and Cup has become a race by teams to see who can get a Toyota deal, while spectators are racing for the exit gates because no one wants to see a car powered by a boring @$$ Toyota win.

[Scotty G.]

Couldn't care less if a driver of my nationality was on the grid or not. I think it's silly that so many do.

The TV ratings and complete lack of interest among the American public tell the story.

I am glad you are one of the .2 still watching the sport, that actually don't care that an American Racing Series (no matter how much they try and be a F1 Junior Series) has such pathetic numbers of American-born participants.

Allmendinger should be in Indy Cars. So should Gurney. So should Hand. So should Hildebrand. So should Clauson. So should East. So should Steele. That's the way it used to be. The best American road racers paired with the best American oval racers. That is what Indy Car Racing used to be about. That sadly, is more what NASCAR is about now.

The numbers don't lie though. Back when Americans dominated the sport, both in numbers and wins, the sport thrived and competed with NASCAR.

The sport will continue to go nowhere and never be as successful as it could be, with so few American drivers in the top series (and so few actually still aspiring to race in the top series).

Guys like Franchitti, Briscoe, Meira and Moraes might be swell guys and good racers. But they don't sell. And never will.

[garyshell]

Like it, believe it or not, but the U.S., and more importantly it's television market, it's sports fans, and it's advertisers paying the bills that make the racing happen ARE a very parochial society.


The TV ratings and complete lack of interest among the American public tell the story.

Bull hockey. If this were true, then why were Juan Pablo Montoya and Alessandro Zanardi so popular both with their sponsors and fans? Look how popular Juan still is driving Nascab.

Gary

[harvick#1]

Why is formula 1 barely a blip on the sports radar in this country? Because no one cares. There are no american drivers, there are no American auto manufacturers, and until I see them show up at the track in March, there are no American teams in F1. Noticed what has been happening to attendance and TV ratings since Toyota showed up in NASCAR? Trucks are on life support, Nationwide has become practice time for cup drivers, and Cup has become a race by teams to see who can get a Toyota deal, while spectators are racing for the exit gates because no one wants to see a car powered by a boring @$$ Toyota win.


Scott Speed was in F1 for a few years, did that convert the millions and millions of Americans to turn on the TV to watch F1, noooooo!! why because not everyone has SPEED channel and most races that are live for F1 take place at 6:00 AM central time for me!!!!!!! except when I get to watch the Brazil and Canada GP's.

Nascar is losing fans because Brian France is a moron and won't admit that hes screwed up what was good. throwing mysterious "debris" cautions can work for once in a while, but when fans start predicting when Nascar throws them, its gets kinda old.

There are still alot of American drivers in the IRL, you want the entire series to be Americans only. I don't get it. stop judging drivers on Nationality and start judging on their racing talents.

the problem is that the IRL is not promoting their series on major networks. they need to get rid of ABC/ESPN because all they will ever care about is Basketball/Football/Baseball. if they can get a way to have all races be on CBS or NBC, something good could start happening

[Mark in Oshawa]

Like it, believe it or not, but the U.S., and more importantly it's television market, it's sports fans, and it's advertisers paying the bills that make the racing happen ARE a very parochial society. Why is formula 1 barely a blip on the sports radar in this country? Because no one cares. There are no american drivers, there are no American auto manufacturers, and until I see them show up at the track in March, there are no American teams in F1. Noticed what has been happening to attendance and TV ratings since Toyota showed up in NASCAR? Trucks are on life support, Nationwide has become practice time for cup drivers, and Cup has become a race by teams to see who can get a Toyota deal, while spectators are racing for the exit gates because no one wants to see a car powered by a boring @$$ Toyota win.

So basically you are confirming Americans are inbred yokels who cant appreciate anything not made in America? Gee...I don't think that..and I am the outsider on this one...

I give the US racing fan a lot more credit than that.

NASCAR ratings really have not tailed off much at all, and Trucks were up. Toyota just bugs people who saw Tora Tora Tora too many times...

[Mark in Oshawa]

Scott Speed was in F1 for a few years, did that convert the millions and millions of Americans to turn on the TV to watch F1, noooooo!! why because not everyone has SPEED channel and most races that are live for F1 take place at 6:00 AM central time for me!!!!!!! except when I get to watch the Brazil and Canada GP's.

Nascar is losing fans because Brian France is a moron and won't admit that hes screwed up what was good. throwing mysterious "debris" cautions can work for once in a while, but when fans start predicting when Nascar throws them, its gets kinda old.

There are still alot of American drivers in the IRL, you want the entire series to be Americans only. I don't get it. stop judging drivers on Nationality and start judging on their racing talents.

the problem is that the IRL is not promoting their series on major networks. they need to get rid of ABC/ESPN because all they will ever care about is Basketball/Football/Baseball. if they can get a way to have all races be on CBS or NBC, something good could start happening

F1 wasn't going to cut it because no American wants to watch Scott Speed finish 15th. THey want winners. they also don't really like road racing or F1.

As for your usual complaints about NASCAR and your hate for Brian France, No.....

People still watch in FAR greater numbers for NASCAR. They get millions of viewers. The Nationwide races are the second highest rated racing series seen on American TV. The Trucks might be tied or beating the IRL some weeks. I hardly would say Brian France has screwed up everything.

It is partially the networks doing the ratings are down. I think too many talking heads forgetting they are not the show and too many gimmicks are turning viewers off in all forms of race coverage.....

[nigelred5]

...and who honestly watches speed 90% of the time?? I watch it about 3-4 hours a week total during F1 season because I can't stand the redneck attitude that permeates their programming.

I'm not saying I agree with or subscribe to the parocialism at all, but trust me, it exists in spades in this country and I'm surrounded by it every day, and I DON'T live out in the middle of no where in BFE.

[SarahFan]

food for thought...

but for me... its just as important to have guys to root against as root for...

how does nationality factor in to that?

[Dr. Krogshöj]

So basically you are confirming Americans are inbred yokels who cant appreciate anything not made in America? Gee...I don't think that..and I am the outsider on this one...

I give the US racing fan a lot more credit than that.

NASCAR ratings really have not tailed off much at all, and Trucks were up. Toyota just bugs people who saw Tora Tora Tora too many times...

It's not an American thing. Did anybody watch F1 in Spain before Alonso started winning? Did anybody watch Grand Prix motorcycle racing in Hungary before Talmácsi started winning? Not really.

[garyshell]

...and who honestly watches speed 90% of the time?? I watch it about 3-4 hours a week total during F1 season because I can't stand the redneck attitude that permeates their programming.

I'm not saying I agree with or subscribe to the parocialism at all, but trust me, it exists in spades in this country and I'm surrounded by it every day, and I DON'T live out in the middle of no where in BFE.


If this was so, then WHY is Juan still as popular as he was when drove for CART, maybe even MORE popular?

Sure there are pockets of this, but to suggest that it is the prevalent attitude is not proven out.

Gary

[El Libertador]

Like it, believe it or not, but the U.S., and more importantly it's television market, it's sports fans, and it's advertisers paying the bills that make the racing happen ARE a very parochial society. Why is formula 1 barely a blip on the sports radar in this country? Because no one cares. There are no american drivers, there are no American auto manufacturers, and until I see them show up at the track in March, there are no American teams in F1. Noticed what has been happening to attendance and TV ratings since Toyota showed up in NASCAR? Trucks are on life support, Nationwide has become practice time for cup drivers, and Cup has become a race by teams to see who can get a Toyota deal, while spectators are racing for the exit gates because no one wants to see a car powered by a boring @$$ Toyota win.

Oddly enough, Formula 1 gets higher television ratings in the United States than the IRL races.

NASCAR's deal has little to do with Toyota considering foreign brands sell much better in the US than the domestic ones do. Obviously, most US Americans do not seem to have a problem with foreign cars, and in fact, prefer them. Perhaps among traditional good ol' boys NASCAR fans that's not the case, but at the same time, do they apply to IndyCar? Surely not. Not enough wrecks for 'em.

I don't agree with nativist rubbish. Perhaps it exists to some extent, but CART was doing well in the late 80s and early 90s and it was not dominated by US Americans.

Above all, people want a sport to watch. A good one. And personalities to support. Ignoring the fact he sort of ruined his image with many due to his tax problems, Hélio Castroneves is not an uninteresting personality or a guy that no one can support (assuming taxgate never happened, obviously, that complicates things). He won a popularity contest called "Dancing with the Stars" so he obviously has appeal.

Look at the NHL...it's not super popular in the US but just take a look at the Washington Capitals franchise. No one went to those games, no one cared. Then, they got a guy named Alexander Ovechkin who is just so exciting to watch and suddenly, the Washington games are well-attended and shown frequently on VERSUS as opposed to just regional channels. Ovechkin just so happens to be Russian.

I do think you need to look at things from the next generation of fans' viewpoints, too. There's an increasing trend in European "soccer" viewership among US American teenagers, so I'd tend to think they're a bit more "international" in their tastes, though that's really a generalization.


The TV ratings and complete lack of interest among the American public tell the story.

I am glad you are one of the .2 still watching the sport, that actually don't care that an American Racing Series (no matter how much they try and be a F1 Junior Series) has such pathetic numbers of American-born participants.

Allmendinger should be in Indy Cars. So should Gurney. So should Hand. So should Hildebrand. So should Clauson. So should East. So should Steele. That's the way it used to be. The best American road racers paired with the best American oval racers. That is what Indy Car Racing used to be about. That sadly, is more what NASCAR is about now.

The numbers don't lie though. Back when Americans dominated the sport, both in numbers and wins, the sport thrived and competed with NASCAR.

The sport will continue to go nowhere and never be as successful as it could be, with so few American drivers in the top series (and so few actually still aspiring to race in the top series).

Guys like Franchitti, Briscoe, Meira and Moraes might be swell guys and good racers. But they don't sell. And never will.

But it isn't just 200,000 households that don't care. Look at the pre-unification numbers. If you totaled the ratings of CCWS and IRL, they'd be much higher. Sure, there is overlap, but it still beats .2.

Then look at 2008. Unification convinced many CCWS fans to start watching, and probably got some old fans re-interested, etc, etc and the TV ratings were up to 1.5 at their best and still at or around 1.0 at many events. The 1.5? Happened at a road course, by the way.

So then what happened? Well, it all fell apart. Can't blame VERSUS solely; NHL can get a 2.2 on VERSUS so enough people can find it if they want to.

The problem was the racing. There were less US Americans on the grid in 2009 than in 2008, but they weren't exactly fan favorites (Foyt may have a name, but he's not a draw, and Buddy Rice may have won a 500, but no one really knows who he is). People gave IndyCar a chance in 2008, and they fell flat on their faces. Those people who made up the 1.5 obviously weren't interested in the product.

I'm sure that adding guys with no formula car experience (not discrediting USAC, but it's not relevant to today's professional US open wheel series; it's a great way to develop future stock car guys, though) would add a few xenophobes to the mix, and hooray for them, but it does not change the fact that the general public is not interested in the product.

Why do more people watch F1 than the IRL in the US? It seems simple. They're in similar situations American-wise, so it has to be another factor. It's not the time of the races or the channel. I'm willing to bet it's the appeal F1 has in the "fastest closed circuit cars in the world" and the "best drivers in the world" and just being so big. It's a massive spectacle and the racing's very interesting if your brain functions at 8 AM or whenever the races are on in the US; it's a lot of strategy and while overtaking is limited, the overtakes, when they do happen, are so unbelievably brilliant.

IndyCar needs something, and it's not going to be US Americans. Sure, a "true US American" in the fight makes a cute little story to promote to the blind supporters, so I'm not saying it won't help at all, but the ultimate problem is identity.

CCWS fans from that 1.5 left. It wasn't exciting to them. Slower cars, drivers they did not feel belonged on the track, uneventful races. Old school IRL fans from thar 1.5 left, too, because it wasn't what the IRL used to be.

They need to pick a direction. I know we all have our favorite ways, but being this big massive "blah" of "well, we do everything, hooray!" and then having a car and drivers that don't do everything makes a mess. You lose the road course fans because the road races are boring, and you lose the oval fans because they don't feel there are enough ovals or oval drivers anymore.

They're trying to do too much. It isn't about US American drivers or having a face of the sport as they already have one. It's the fact that the series, in it's current state, just doesn't appeal to anyone. It's average at everything rather than excelling at one particular field. IndyCar needs to figure out what it wants to be when it grows up.

(Sorry for the long post, by the way).

[NickFalzone]

Oddly enough, Formula 1 gets higher television ratings in the United States than the IRL races.

NASCAR's deal has little to do with Toyota considering foreign brands sell much better in the US than the domestic ones do. Obviously, most US Americans do not seem to have a problem with foreign cars, and in fact, prefer them. Perhaps among traditional good ol' boys NASCAR fans that's not the case, but at the same time, do they apply to IndyCar? Surely not. Not enough wrecks for 'em.

I don't agree with nativist rubbish. Perhaps it exists to some extent, but CART was doing well in the late 80s and early 90s and it was not dominated by US Americans.

Above all, people want a sport to watch. A good one. And personalities to support. Ignoring the fact he sort of ruined his image with many due to his tax problems, Hélio Castroneves is not an uninteresting personality or a guy that no one can support (assuming taxgate never happened, obviously, that complicates things). He won a popularity contest called "Dancing with the Stars" so he obviously has appeal.

Look at the NHL...it's not super popular in the US but just take a look at the Washington Capitals franchise. No one went to those games, no one cared. Then, they got a guy named Alexander Ovechkin who is just so exciting to watch and suddenly, the Washington games are well-attended and shown frequently on VERSUS as opposed to just regional channels. Ovechkin just so happens to be Russian.

I do think you need to look at things from the next generation of fans' viewpoints, too. There's an increasing trend in European "soccer" viewership among US American teenagers, so I'd tend to think they're a bit more "international" in their tastes, though that's really a generalization.



But it isn't just 200,000 households that don't care. Look at the pre-unification numbers. If you totaled the ratings of CCWS and IRL, they'd be much higher. Sure, there is overlap, but it still beats .2.

Then look at 2008. Unification convinced many CCWS fans to start watching, and probably got some old fans re-interested, etc, etc and the TV ratings were up to 1.5 at their best and still at or around 1.0 at many events. The 1.5? Happened at a road course, by the way.

So then what happened? Well, it all fell apart. Can't blame VERSUS solely; NHL can get a 2.2 on VERSUS so enough people can find it if they want to.

The problem was the racing. There were less US Americans on the grid in 2009 than in 2008, but they weren't exactly fan favorites (Foyt may have a name, but he's not a draw, and Buddy Rice may have won a 500, but no one really knows who he is). People gave IndyCar a chance in 2008, and they fell flat on their faces. Those people who made up the 1.5 obviously weren't interested in the product.

I'm sure that adding guys with no formula car experience (not discrediting USAC, but it's not relevant to today's professional US open wheel series; it's a great way to develop future stock car guys, though) would add a few xenophobes to the mix, and hooray for them, but it does not change the fact that the general public is not interested in the product.

Why do more people watch F1 than the IRL in the US? It seems simple. They're in similar situations American-wise, so it has to be another factor. It's not the time of the races or the channel. I'm willing to bet it's the appeal F1 has in the "fastest closed circuit cars in the world" and the "best drivers in the world" and just being so big. It's a massive spectacle and the racing's very interesting if your brain functions at 8 AM or whenever the races are on in the US; it's a lot of strategy and while overtaking is limited, the overtakes, when they do happen, are so unbelievably brilliant.

IndyCar needs something, and it's not going to be US Americans. Sure, a "true US American" in the fight makes a cute little story to promote to the blind supporters, so I'm not saying it won't help at all, but the ultimate problem is identity.

CCWS fans from that 1.5 left. It wasn't exciting to them. Slower cars, drivers they did not feel belonged on the track, uneventful races. Old school IRL fans from thar 1.5 left, too, because it wasn't what the IRL used to be.

They need to pick a direction. I know we all have our favorite ways, but being this big massive "blah" of "well, we do everything, hooray!" and then having a car and drivers that don't do everything makes a mess. You lose the road course fans because the road races are boring, and you lose the oval fans because they don't feel there are enough ovals or oval drivers anymore.

They're trying to do too much. It isn't about US American drivers or having a face of the sport as they already have one. It's the fact that the series, in it's current state, just doesn't appeal to anyone. It's average at everything rather than excelling at one particular field. IndyCar needs to figure out what it wants to be when it grows up.

(Sorry for the long post, by the way).

That's a long a** post and I'm not reading all of it. But I do take exception to F1 getting better ratings domestically than the IRL. The season ratings are nowhere close to the IRL's once you count in Indy 500 and the 5 or so ABC races. Of course IRL's ratings are in the toilet, and F1 like soccer no one here really gives a crap about. So it's really comparing no one watching to no one watching.

[El Libertador]

That's a long a** post and I'm not reading all of it. But I do take exception to F1 getting better ratings domestically than the IRL. The season ratings are nowhere close to the IRL's once you count in Indy 500 and the 5 or so ABC races. Of course IRL's ratings are in the toilet, and F1 like soccer no one here really gives a crap about. So it's really comparing no one watching to no one watching.

Perhaps, then, you take exception to what you don't want to hear. The ABC races weren't always beating F1, by the way. Some did, though, and I'll admit that. If you average all the non-Indy events (the people who watch Indy only don't count, they don't do anything to help the IRL), and take into consideration that the F1 races are on at pretty bad times for the average US American, I'd say F1 has more fans in the US than the IRL. Obviously, a statement starting with "I'd say" isn't total fact, but then again, we've been talking ifs, right? "If" the IRL races were on ABC and the Indy 500 counted and all the drivers were born within some arbitrary borders the ratings would be this. Well, "if" the F1 races got the same ratings they do on FOX in the afternoon (not far from the European races on SPEED, either) they'd be beating the IRL non-Indy, which means there are more "real" fans who really care for the sport.

Perhaps it is comparing no one watching to no one watching, but better ratings are better ratings, and it just shows that if people have to decide, they'll pick the most entertaining option, the one with an identity, NOT the one with more participants just like them.

It's only part of the points I've made, though, but I can understand why you didn't bother to read it all. It was "long" (by Internet standards; it's honestly quite quick to read through compared to most things).

[nigelred5]

i agree the racing has to be exciting, and currently, it's not. CART was big in the 90's in a large part because it built on the success and simply followed the domestic interest in Indycars from the 70's and 80's and was finally made availabele to the masses with the ever increasing television exposure. It was still chock full of well known american racers. Names like Foyt, Unser, Bettenhausen, Andretti, and Rahal. I have zero problems with an international field, but it's not what's going to get American race fans and TV viewers excited 10-12 months of the year. They need a hint of international flavor.
Getting off topic, but....
As far as Ovechkin goes, uh, I think it had QUITE a bit more to do with the fact that the Caps were WINNING period with Ovechkin than who he was. Sure, he's exciting, but he makes the caps WIN, which is what draws the fans.

Outside of the Skins maybe, Washingtons sports fans are a fair weather as you get. Hell, they used to pride themselves about jumping on the BANDWAGON. Been to a wizards game? Even one of the most exciting players in the history of the sport didn't generate much interest because the Wizards still didn't win WITH Michael Jordan. Soccer? Surely there's more than 10-20K soccer fans in the DC area to fill RFK for a DC United match. I see all the full stands at the Senators- oh sorry, NATIONALS games. They suck.

The sport has to be exciting first, and then their fans have to connect to the drivers and then their drivers have to be winners. Both need work, but they have to fix the competition as fast if not faster than they need to fix the field of drivers.

[harvick#1]

Outside of the Skins maybe, Washingtons sports fans are a fair weather as you get. Hell, they used to pride themselves about jumping on the BANDWAGON. Been to a wizards game? Even one of the most exciting players in the history of the sport didn't generate much interest because the Wizards still didn't win WITH Michael Jordan. Soccer? Surely there's more than 10-20K soccer fans in the DC area to fill RFK for a DC United match. I see all the full stands at the Senators- oh sorry, NATIONALS games. They suck.


Chicago ranks up there at near #1 :p : all of a sudden everyone here is a Blackhawks fan, I have no clue how that happened :laugh:

[Chamoo]

You guys are all looking at this from our perspective. Of course, some of us want to see the best driver win because we are die hard fans, regardless of their nationality, but for a casual viewer flipping through the channels, if they see Graham Rahal battling Marco Andretti or another american for the lead, they might be more inclined to stick around then see Hideki Mutoh battling Mario Moraes.

The casual fan doesn't care how good the driver is because they don't know who they are, they care about the first things they see when they turn the channel, the track, the car, and the names.

[El Libertador]

The sport has to be exciting first, and then their fans have to connect to the drivers and then their drivers have to be winners. Both need work, but they have to fix the competition as fast if not faster than they need to fix the field of drivers.

Fair enough. I don't think, though, that a driver has to be US American for a US American to "connect" with, though perhaps it is easier. It's so broad. Will a New Englander feel compelled to support a Texan? I have my doubts. The US is many countries in one.

Still, which US American that people know of can win? They only know of Danica, they'd probably recognize the name Andretti...neither are winning.


You guys are all looking at this from our perspective. Of course, some of us want to see the best driver win because we are die hard fans, regardless of their nationality, but for a casual viewer flipping through the channels, if they see Graham Rahal battling Marco Andretti or another american for the lead, they might be more inclined to stick around then see Hideki Mutoh battling Mario Moraes.

The casual fan doesn't care how good the driver is because they don't know who they are, they care about the first things they see when they turn the channel, the track, the car, and the names.

What difference does it make, though? As many people know Rahal as they do Mutoh and Moraes. Rahal has a name we can identify, but how many of the average US Americans will make the connection to Bobby? I doubt it's many, and even so, I doubt they care. Andretti carries a little more weight, but he's not battling for the lead. We can have US Americans, fine, but we can't "throw" races to let them win, and honestly, that's really the only way it's going to get done seeing as no US Americans won in 2009. Perhaps RHR can do well with AGR and Rahal has improved. But who knows who Hunter-Reay is? Who knows there's another Rahal, and who even cares that there is?

Driversport promotes instability as drivers come and go, have good years and bad. Consistently good racing combined with a minor emphasis on a handful of personalities is the best way.

[Chamoo]

Fair enough. I don't think, though, that a driver has to be US American for a US American to "connect" with, though perhaps it is easier. It's so broad. Will a New Englander feel compelled to support a Texan? I have my doubts. The US is many countries in one.

Still, which US American that people know of can win? They only know of Danica, they'd probably recognize the name Andretti...neither are winning.



What difference does it make, though? As many people know Rahal as they do Mutoh and Moraes. Rahal has a name we can identify, but how many of the average US Americans will make the connection to Bobby? I doubt it's many, and even so, I doubt they care. Andretti carries a little more weight, but he's not battling for the lead. We can have US Americans, fine, but we can't "throw" races to let them win, and honestly, that's really the only way it's going to get done seeing as no US Americans won in 2009. Perhaps RHR can do well with AGR and Rahal has improved. But who knows who Hunter-Reay is? Who knows there's another Rahal, and who even cares that there is?

Driversport promotes instability as drivers come and go, have good years and bad. Consistently good racing combined with a minor emphasis on a handful of personalities is the best way.

I might had used the wrong american names in my earlier post, but I wasn't trying to infer that they had to be related to past great american drivers. What I'm saying is that if random people flip through the channels, if they see an American name competing for the lead, compared to foreign names they can't pronounce, they will be more likely to stick around and watch the race.

If they know they are American, they will be more likely to root for them.

[NickFalzone]

Well honestly I think one of the biggest goals for IndyCar is to separate itself from F1. Americans for the most part do not care about F1 racing, and unfortunately due to their similar look (and lately larger # of roads/streets) the IRL gets put in that same category of boring foreign formula racing. The majority of the drivers being foreign does not help either. If the IRL got ratings in other countries around the world, we'd be having a different discussion. But it doesn't, the IRL's audience is primarily here in the states. I don't think "foreign races" are so much of a problem, as long as they are aired live at decent airtimes.

So back to that hurdle of separating itself from F1, I think that a unique and well-publicized difference in car design would help bring in casual viewers, as they will possibly have less preconceived notions as to what they're watching.

[El Libertador]

I might had used the wrong american names in my earlier post, but I wasn't trying to infer that they had to be related to past great american drivers. What I'm saying is that if random people flip through the channels, if they see an American name competing for the lead, compared to foreign names they can't pronounce, they will be more likely to stick around and watch the race.

If they know they are American, they will be more likely to root for them.

Well, the problem is, if they don't have names people recognize, people won't be too interested in them. It's hard to understand just by tuning in that "oh my gosh an American battling for the win in a sport with only five Americans!!!" Dan Wheldon, Paul Tracy, and Justin Wilson honestly sound more American than Richard Antinucci, yet the latter is the only Yank among them.

I think people will be more likely to stick around and watch if it's entertaining. If anyone is battling for the lead. But yes, I do agree, having Yanks probably helps popularity in the USA.

Still, no one's going to watch just to see ol' Bubba Earl Lee Smith, Jr. race if the races aren't the least bit exciting.


Well honestly I think one of the biggest goals for IndyCar is to separate itself from F1. Americans for the most part do not care about F1 racing, and unfortunately due to their similar look (and lately larger # of roads/streets) the IRL gets put in that same category of boring foreign formula racing. The majority of the drivers being foreign does not help either. If the IRL got ratings in other countries around the world, we'd be having a different discussion. But it doesn't, the IRL's audience is primarily here in the states. I don't think "foreign races" are so much of a problem, as long as they are aired live at decent airtimes.

So back to that hurdle of separating itself from F1, I think that a unique and well-publicized difference in car design would help bring in casual viewers, as they will possibly have less preconceived notions as to what they're watching.

I'm not sure. I have a tough time saying what the general public, and not myself, wants. Champ Car, F1-esque, failed. IndyCar, when it was oval based, wasn't doing any better. It seemed neither approach was working. Merged? Now it gets to fail twice as much. The highest rating the merged series got was a 1.5 at Mid-Ohio. No clue what that means.

I think the problem in general is that IndyCar has to be the best at what it does, whichever thing it decides to do. Road racing fans want to see F1 or ALMS. Oval racing fans want to see NASCAR. There just doesn't seem to be much of a place.

I almost wonder if it's just better to take the money spent on the IRL. On the TEAM money alone, you could pay $10,000,000 to the winner and still add $581,000+ to the other 32 positions and still have more money (from the existing winner's purse and the other millions IMS spends to fund the IRL) to distribute to those positions and the FTQs. Then, you lay out safety regulations, and let the teams innovate. You can buy a car from a supplier or build your own. F1 teams welcome if they want to make mods.

Total fantasy? Sure. But the reality seems to be that Indy is the only thing you'll get people interested in in the USA as far as open-wheel goes. So you may as well do that 1,000,000 times better than anyone else ever could and make it the glorious event it's supposed to be. They'd spend the same money, and probably have a decent shot at a profit if they sold themselves out to title sponsors for the race etc. Could you imagine the interest in the event? For all you US American-lovers...what if one of your US American teams came in and beat an F1 team in the 500? Wouldn't that be a cute little story for you guys?

Oh well. Being realistic, I'm as clueless as the guys in Indy are.

[spiritone]

Interesting discussion.

If competitive americans are not important to the series, answer this.



If nascar only had a few token americans would it be as popular as it is now?

[NickFalzone]

Interesting discussion.

If competitive americans are not important to the series, answer this.



If nascar only had a few token americans would it be as popular as it is now?

If NASCAR had only foreign manufacturers and mostly foreign drivers, it would probably not have lasted through its first season.

[El Libertador]

Interesting discussion.

If competitive americans are not important to the series, answer this.

If nascar only had a few token americans would it be as popular as it is now?

The point you make is interesting, and accurate. NASCAR wouldn't be very popular without Americans.

But we're comparing different fans. What crowd does open-wheel racing appeal to? Will it ever appeal to "them thar good ol' boys" who will only support heterosexual, caucasian, Christian, conservative Southeastern US drivers?

Doubt it.

You can't say because NASCAR fans, being US American, want US Americans, that open-wheel fans will feel the same.

The casual US American? Well, the casual US American...getting them back just seems impossible. You have to aim at the next generation of casual fans. I'm surrounded by next gen US American adults. They strike me as quite different from the whole "NEEDS MOAR MERKINS" crowd.

Then again, they strike me as people who would never care about IndyCar.

[spiritone]

A different crowd.... Do you you really think that the majority of the fans of nascar are "them thar good a ol boys. I seriously doubt it. Is this some kind of american bias against southeners? I'm canadian and even i can see the need for american drivers in the series to help create some interest. I don't think the nascar fan demographics would support your arqument.

This series is falling fast and it doesn't seem the present administration seems to have a clue how to fix it. They can't make a decision on engines, they seem to be stuck on the dallara chassis, by the time they get around to makeing a decision there isn't going to be anyone left. Seems like there was no thought given to what they were going to do after the so called merger.

These critical decisions needed to be made right after the merger when there was still some momentum. Didn't happen, thank you TG.

[El Libertador]

I live in the USA.

I've attended a few NASCAR races.

I mean it lovingly when I say "them there good ol' boys." There's nothing wrong with them. I'm just trying to get across the point

I'm not saying US American drivers wouldn't help. I'm just saying it's not a top priority, and if we go back to hiring under-qualified US Americans such as Racin Gardner or Jaques Lazier over well-qualified drivers such as Oriol Servia, Bruno Junqueira, etc...I'm out of here.

I just think they need to decide on engines, chassis, etc before we focus on building a sport around drivers. We tried that. IRL 1.0 failed with all-Americans, and IRL 3.0 Danica Edition failed with all-Danica. So now what do we try? "Well, uhh, maybe they'll like Graham..." not happening. They won't know or like anyone if the sport isn't worth watching and if the star isn't winning.