The Afghan war conundrum

[race aficionado]

My president has declared his commitment to send an insurgence of North American soldiers to try to flush out the terrorist camps who's sole apparent purpose is to plan terrorist attacks against the imperialist infidels.

As a citizen that has been relieved to have a new leader taking the reigns of the US presidency and focusing the energy on how to win the wars against unemployment, lack of health care, an ignorant education, housing downfall and a basic over expenditure of our individual and government resources - we now have a president that has jumped on the war bandwagon to defeat the masterminds of our dreaded 9/11.

I listen to other of my favorite democrats like Dennis Kucinich and I hear a totally different point of view, one that I can find myself accepting and one that is not held by my president Barack Obama, the leader of my country whom I am willing to support and trust in these difficult times . . .

what a conundrum.

I dislike war, I dislike the cost of war, I can understand the use of war if you are being invaded but this Afghan adventure seems more complex than just a flushing out of evil planning extremists, which by the way, seem to be spread in many other locations than the ones targeted.

What a waste of lives, what a waste of resources.

I feel that I really don't know anything about what is happening in those parts of the world but I do know what is happening on this part of the Northern Hemisphere.
17 million north americans have trouble putting food on their tables every day, the amount of people using foods stamps keeps on growing, unemployment and foreclosures continue as this country is in the process of
trying to get out of this recession/depression/hell hole we are now in.

This thread starter is just ranting and I would hope that we could have some civilized - and why not? - comments on what is happening.

Or just rant on.

peace dam it!!!!
:dozey:

[Mark in Oshawa]

Gee Race....I didn't know you were a Kucinich kind of guy. It is really simple. The US ignored that part of the world for the most part. The Taliban could do what they wanted in the 90's and NO one bothered them. Then 9/11 happened because Bin Laden was given safe haven by the Taliban. So now the goal is to keep the Taliban from taking back the country to give terrorists a safe haven. I know it is complicated and you don't like war, but believe me, if a committed leftwing Dem like Obama has seen merit in this, maybe you should rexamine your view.

Frankly, I think he is wasting the lives and effort of those who have been there. The Surge in Iraq put a stop to a lot of the nonsense there. A surge here was recommended by the guy Obama sent over there to evaluate things for him, and he still is lukewarm about it and willing to pull out in 18 months AND SAY SO. Quite frankly, the Taliban will go quiet for 18 months and Obama will pull out and you can be happy. The thing is...peace over there is very doable. Stop blowing up Western soldiers and they are home tomorrow. There is no appetite in Canada for us to be there much longer, but every time someone comes home in a bag, it reminds me of the intolerance that started all of this in the first place.

You want the soldiers home? So do I, but you don't just leave after shedding blood. That would be a repeat of the Vietnam debacle, lives lost to no end. Show the people of Afghanstan you are legitimately there to help them, and they will reject the Taliban. Pull out...and you are just a carpetbagger.

Obama figured it out...sort of.

[SportscarBruce]

I agree with race aficionado.

Here is a simple three-step strategy for diffusing tensions and ending the war on terrorism.

1. Place the development of alternative fuels and energy independence on a fast track by steering the dollars to be spent in Middle Eastern wars of occupation into energy R&D.

2. Cut the political and financial umbilical to Israel.

3. Bring the boys (and girls) home.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Cut aid to Israel? So when they get attacked by the Arab world the next time, let them fight it out on their own? I could agree to that if you accept the reality that they might use nukes OR be overun. Still wont change the fact the radical Islams view of America as decadent. They hate Chrisitianity, Western Civilization and the US in particular. Stopping support of Israel wont change that.

As for energy independence? Gee, the fast solution is to allow domestic drilling yet your party of choice ( I am assuming ) wont do that while they go on this alternative energy kick. Getting rid of Arab oil means you better find alternatives in the next 4 or 5 years. Solar, Fusion, Bio Fuels and the like wont do that in that time frame.

Bring the soldiers home. They were not in Afghanistan in 2000 yet you were attacked in 2001. Nice try, but it means very little.

Naivety is a terrible thing that liberal wishful thinkers have to avoid. Real solutions realize that the fact the US is a terrorist target has nothing to do with Israel, oil or where your soldiers are. It is WESTERN VALUES they hate. Libreal ideas you support and I support such as freedom of speech, equal rights for women, plurality and democracy and freedom of assembly and religion. THAT is why the Western World is being attacked.

[SportscarBruce]

Statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception.
- Mark Twain, "Chronicle of Young Satan"

[Camelopard]

......The US ignored that part of the world for the most part.......


Mark, you don't truly believe that do you?

Who supplied aid and weapons to the mujahadeen when the Soviets were there? The west led by the US.

Where did the taleban come from, that good friend of the west, Pakistan.

In my honest opinion we are now reaping the benefits of what we sowed.

[anthonyvop]

Mark, you don't truly believe that do you?

Who supplied aid and weapons to the mujahadeen when the Soviets were there? The west led by the US.

Where did the taleban come from, that good friend of the west, Pakistan.

In my honest opinion we are now reaping the benefits of what we sowed.

This is the personification of oversimplification by omission in order to justify one's own jealous hatred.

[chuck34]

I agree with race aficionado.

Here is a simple three-step strategy for diffusing tensions and ending the war on terrorism.

1. Place the development of alternative fuels and energy independence on a fast track by steering the dollars to be spent in Middle Eastern wars of occupation into energy R&D.

2. Cut the political and financial umbilical to Israel.

3. Bring the boys (and girls) home.

1) We're talking about Afghanistan here. No oil. There may be a few pipelines, but no oil. So that won't change much.

2) Good luck with that. If we cut our ties with Israel, they will have no choice but to destroy her enemies. Make no mistake that IS what will happen, we are holding them back more than anything. Do you really want an all out war in the Middle East?

3) Sounds a lot like the plans the US has had in years gone by, specifically the 1930's and the 1990's. Anyone want to take a stab at what happened to the US in the 1940's and the 2000's?

[chuck34]

Mark, you don't truly believe that do you?

Who supplied aid and weapons to the mujahadeen when the Soviets were there? The west led by the US.

Where did the taleban come from, that good friend of the west, Pakistan.

In my honest opinion we are now reaping the benefits of what we sowed.

Ever see the movie or read the book "Charlie Wilson's War"? That explains a lot. To sum up a bit. Yes we did give them aid, and a boat load of promises. Then we up and pulled out, leaving them with nothing.

Since 2001 we have been giving them lots of aid, and making loads of promises. Now you want us to up and pull out, leaving them with nothing.

Two things come to mind. "Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it". "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results".

[harsha]

Cut aid to Israel? So when they get attacked by the Arab world the next time, let them fight it out on their own? I could agree to that if you accept the reality that they might use nukes OR be overun. Still wont change the fact the radical Islams view of America as decadent. They hate Chrisitianity, Western Civilization and the US in particular. Stopping support of Israel wont change that.

As for energy independence? Gee, the fast solution is to allow domestic drilling yet your party of choice ( I am assuming ) wont do that while they go on this alternative energy kick. Getting rid of Arab oil means you better find alternatives in the next 4 or 5 years. Solar, Fusion, Bio Fuels and the like wont do that in that time frame.

Bring the soldiers home. They were not in Afghanistan in 2000 yet you were attacked in 2001. Nice try, but it means very little.

Naivety is a terrible thing that liberal wishful thinkers have to avoid. Real solutions realize that the fact the US is a terrorist target has nothing to do with Israel, oil or where your soldiers are. It is WESTERN VALUES they hate. Libreal ideas you support and I support such as freedom of speech, equal rights for women, plurality and democracy and freedom of assembly and religion. THAT is why the Western World is being attacked.

what don't radical islamists hate...they hate democracy,moderate islam etc etc etc..i wish they started hating food so all of them losers starve to death

[SportscarBruce]

1) We're talking about Afghanistan here. No oil. There may be a few pipelines, but no oil. So that won't change much.

I'm talking the strategic interest of the Middle East as a whole. Remove, or at lest dramatically reduce, our dependence on Middle Eastern oil and the principle rationale for our meddling in the affairs of nations and peoples in that corner of the world which cannot progress as a society from the Dark Ages through the Age of Enlightenment disappears.


2) Good luck with that. If we cut our ties with Israel, they will have no choice but to destroy her enemies. Make no mistake that IS what will happen, we are holding them back more than anything. Do you really want an all out war in the Middle East?

The open-ended financial and political support we provide Israel inflames the passions of those who seek to export Jihad and destroy Western society. And besides that, after 60 years of support isn't it time the financial and military powerhouse of the Middle East become fully responsible for the political repercussions of its domestic and foreign policy actions? Talk about nation-building, that structure has long been completed. Also, quite frankly I couldn't care less what happens between Israel and the surrounding nations. I'm concerned about issues within the immediate sphere of North America.


3) Sounds a lot like the plans the US has had in years gone by, specifically the 1930's and the 1990's. Anyone want to take a stab at what happened to the US in the 1940's and the 2000's?

The US government let its pants down and became involved in war for external interest? You can add WWI and the Gulf of Tonkin.

[chuck34]

I'm talking the strategic interest of the Middle East as a whole. Remove, or at lest dramatically reduce, our dependence on Middle Eastern oil and the principle rationale for our meddling in the affairs of nations and peoples in that corner of the world which cannot progress as a society from the Dark Ages through the Age of Enlightenment disappears.

Fine, I have no problem with that. Drill here, drill now, it's just good on so many levels. But this thread is about the Afghan war. No oil in Afghanistan. And the genie is already out of the bottle anyway. So even if we pulled up stakes and left completely, do you really think that would passify these people? They would just see it as a "victory" over the Great Satan, be emboldend to then go and destroy the Little Satan (Israel). But you seem to be ok with that. So I suppose you don't see any problem with it.


The open-ended financial and political support we provide Israel inflames the passions of those who seek to export Jihad and destroy Western society. And besides that, after 60 years of support isn't it time the financial and military powerhouse of the Middle East become fully responsible for the political repercussions of its domestic and foreign policy actions? Talk about nation-building, that structure has long been completed. Also, quite frankly I couldn't care less what happens between Israel and the surrounding nations. I'm concerned about issues within the immediate sphere of North America.

Come on, you're smart enough to know that Islamists don't need Western support to hate Israel. I'm a bit concerned that you don't seem to see a problem with a large scale war in the Middle East. Do you honestly not see how that would quickly escalate and then it would be "within the immediate sphere of North America"? Are you really that much of an isolationist? Have you really learned that little from history?


The US government let its pants down and became involved in war for external interest? You can add WWI and the Gulf of Tonkin.

You are the one that is recommending a strategy of "letting our pants down". I'm meerly pointing out what happens when you pursue this strategy. It ain't pretty.

[Eki]

Gee Race....I didn't know you were a Kucinich kind of guy. It is really simple. The US ignored that part of the world for the most part. The Taliban could do what they wanted in the 90's and NO one bothered them. Then 9/11 happened because Bin Laden was given safe haven by the Taliban. So now the goal is to keep the Taliban from taking back the country to give terrorists a safe haven.
I think the goal is a bit naive, remembering some of the 9/11 attackers had a safe haven in the US and trained in an American flight school. Does anyone really believe that exterminating the Taliban will end terrorism in the world and that terrorists can't find a safe haven elsewhere? Maybe if Israel and Americans stopped killing civilians and destroying their homes (or doing "collateral damage" as they like to call it), support for terrorism would diminish. Well, someone might think that's naive too.

[race aficionado]

Also, when we hear the cost of the war . . . that is, not the human cost but the $$$$$$ cost, I see these ridiculously high numbers.
Yes, that money comes out of my taxes and adds up to my countries debt . . . . on the other end, who is the one earning all that money that we spend???
Who's making a killing *pun intended - on this side of the business???
The war business is a profitable business indeed
--------
AFGHAN PRICE TAG RISING
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-12-02-war-costs_N.htm

Year Iraq Afghanistan
(numbers in billions)

2003 53 15

2004 76 15

2005 86 20

2006 102 19

2007 131 39

2008 141 43

2009 95 * 55 *

2010 65 ** 73 **

Total 748 300

* Estimate
** Requested in president's budget

Source: Congressional Research Service. Note: Numbers rounded.
--------------------------

[Eki]

You want the soldiers home? So do I, but you don't just leave after shedding blood. That would be a repeat of the Vietnam debacle, lives lost to no end.
I've heard that Vietnam has been quite peaceful for over 30 years since the Americans left. Well, they invaded Cambodja and got rid of the US supported Pol Pot, but that's all.

[Eki]

Cut aid to Israel? So when they get attacked by the Arab world the next time, let them fight it out on their own? I could agree to that if you accept the reality that they might use nukes OR be overun. Still wont change the fact the radical Islams view of America as decadent. They hate Chrisitianity, Western Civilization and the US in particular. Stopping support of Israel wont change that.

Or at least that's what you're thinking. The reality might be that if Christianity, Sionism, Western Civilisation and the US in particular left them alone to mind their own business, they might lose interest in Christianity, Sionism, Western Civilisation and the US in particular and their "decadence". We never know, but at least Vietnam hasn't tried to spread communism to the West.

[Eki]

what don't radical islamists hate...they hate democracy,moderate islam etc etc etc..i wish they started hating food so all of them losers starve to death
You could say that about radical Hindus too. And about radical Christians, radical Jews, radical atheists, etc.

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/southasia/features/article_1434632.php/Radical_Hindus_attack_Christians_over_&quotforced_conversions%22__News_Feature__


New Delhi - Communal tensions are on the rise in eastern India as radical Hindus in the state of Orissa have torched hundreds of churches and Christian homes since late August.

As in past confrontations in recent years, the violence between Hindus and Christians has centred in Orissa's Kandhamal district.

[SportscarBruce]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-12-02-war-costs_N.htm[/url]

Year Iraq Afghanistan
(numbers in billions)

2003 53 15

2004 76 15

2005 86 20

2006 102 19

2007 131 39

2008 141 43

2009 95 * 55 *

2010 65 ** 73 **

Total 748 300

* Estimate
** Requested in president's budget

Source: Congressional Research Service. Note: Numbers rounded.
--------------------------

I believe it was Colin Powell who issued a warning about an emerging AntiTerrorist/Industrial Complex. Stating such a view wouldn't meet with the approval of Dick Cheney but that goes without saying....

But if there must be an extension of the war and a method must be found to pay for it I propose a 30% tax be levied on the income and real estate assets of organized religions operating in the US. It's a war between Muslims, Jews, and Christians so let the Muslims, Jews, and Christians pay for it. ;)

[Eki]

They would just see it as a "victory" over the Great Satan, be emboldend to then go and destroy the Little Satan (Israel). But you seem to be ok with that. So I suppose you don't see any problem with it.

Israelis could move to Arizona. Fousto has promised to take them.

[Camelopard]

Ever see the movie or read the book "Charlie Wilson's War"? That explains a lot. To sum up a bit. Yes we did give them aid, and a boat load of promises. Then we up and pulled out, leaving them with nothing.

Since 2001 we have been giving them lots of aid, and making loads of promises. Now you want us to up and pull out, leaving them with nothing.

Two things come to mind. "Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it". "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results".


Ummmm I don't learn my history from hollywood blockbusters, nor watching faux news.

Your last quote is so true, read a bit more about the history of the region and don't just rely on films.

[Camelopard]

This is the personification of oversimplification by omission in order to justify one's own jealous hatred.


jealous hatred of what vop?

[anthonyvop]

Ummmm I don't learn my history from hollywood blockbusters, nor watching faux news.

Your last quote is so true, read a bit more about the history of the region and don't just rely on films.
Well it is obvious you get your info from reading history books so where do you get your info? The DailyKos or the Huffington Post?

[Camelopard]

Well it is obvious you get your info from reading history books so where do you get your info? The DailyKos or the Huffington Post?


Did you read what you typed before you hit enter vop? Want to try again? :confused:

[chuck34]

Ummmm I don't learn my history from hollywood blockbusters, nor watching faux news.

Your last quote is so true, read a bit more about the history of the region and don't just rely on films.

You do realise that Charlie Wilson is a real person don't you? If you would do a bit of research on him, you might find out that the film version of this story is TAME compared to the reality. Perhaps you are the one that needs to learn a bit of history.

[Camelopard]

Ho hum, I know wilson is a real person, doesn't mean that the film is historically correct in every detail.

When I'm talking about the history of the area, I mean go back way prior to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Any idea why Afghanistan is the shape it is?


vop says that wikipedia is crap and that anyone who uses it a reference tool is a fool, well I feel the same way about hollywood films, I mean for heavens sake rambo won the vietnam war didn't he?

[SportscarBruce]

Unlike Wikipedia no one is allowed to fact-check and correct a Hollywood film or cable docudrama.

[chuck34]

Come on people. I know more about Charlie Wilson than what was in the movie. Do you? I used the move as a jumping off point because I figured most people had seen it and may be interested. Plus it ended with a good (and historically accurate) message about abandoning allies.

Forget the damn movie. These are the facts. We funded the mujahideen. We promised to give them support and more funding when they pushed the Soviets out of Afghanistan. Then once the Soviets were out, we also pulled out leaving our allies high and dry. That pretty well pissed them off, and radicalized many of them.

Is that not what is being done right now?

[harsha]

lemme know when Obama actually does something other than talk

[race aficionado]

---- I have a dear friend who is right now in uniform serving the USA army and serving his first month of his supposed 1 year war duties in Afghanistan.
My friend Gabe is a film producer/writer in his early 40's that joined the army as he was hounded by his college debts and the army offered to remedy his situation by offering to pay his debt and Gabe would do his part by being part of the communications division. Ideally all the weapons he would have to carry were his camera and his laptop but little did he know that he would also be trained to lock and load his shiny rifle and other exploding paraphernalia.

He has been sending us reports and with his permission - and I hope the mods don't mind - I am copying and pasting his latest one.

It is a very telling account of what is happening right now.
If my friend Gabe makes it past this adventure, he will have a lot of material to be able to manifest his talents with favorite weapons, his laptop and his cameras.

Here it goes:
_____________________________

Between filing stories, having meet and greets with the Taliban and avoiding IEDitis while out in the field. I was off by 5,000 boots for the official announcement this past week by my Commander-in Chief and the 18 months-in my humble opinion- sounds like to give y'all something to gnaw on and chill for a bit. I personally don't see it happening-US pulling out in that timeframe. There's too much money invested here. The concept of nation-building -USA style recipe is still one that needs some seasoning-where's Julie Childs or Sylvia? The Pashtun filled government led by Karazai still has the daunting task of unifying a country that has deeply entrenched tribal affiliations. Tajiks- the second largest ethnic group still feel like they are second class citizens but the irony is that most of founding fathers of the Taliban are Pashtun. I wondered what it would of been like to roll through Mullah's hood asking folks "what was the young Mullah like?" and armed with some spraypaint-go around tagging "MULLAH OMAR EATS PORK" (Southern A-STAN is the birthplace of the Taliban. Mullah Omar's(the Taliban's George Washington) hometown is a place called Sangesar -no offense to my Muslim/Hebrew or non eating pork friends and family- I like pigs-they are smart as hell and are 97% genetically similar to humans). I asked an American Captain running ops in a nearby area about that idea-he looked at me for a moment puzzled and kinda chuckled. I got quoted by some Swedish reporter for describing the situation here in Afghanistan after O's announcement as a "Rubicon of paradoxes-256+ shades of grey". There's no just pulling out and calling it a day but from my soldiering perspective- we meaning US need to let the Afghan take the initiative toward establishing rapport/winning hearts and minds of the rural folks. See we have this ingrained hubris/ our way is the best way mentality-not all of us -but it's how we roll as a superpower. I noticed how the Canadians operate-small teams mentoring/coaching the Afghan soldiers-especially on ops-they lead the ops-they are instructed on how to conduct ops-We/US have the tendency to wanna lead-be out front-show them take the brunt of the burden but these folks got a way to go. Quite a few of the Afghan Army is made up of poor guys looking for a better life-they have had no real military foundation like we know-So when they wanna fight, they fight, if they don't want to do an op-they don't . Mind you there are also a whole lot of dudes who wanna fight for their country -it's just the infrastructure and how they have lived life for so long-Nationbuilding is a long term investment and again at what cost?

We can't enable, coddle them anymore-ditto for Pakistan. So in my perfect world-18 months for Karazai/Pakistan to get their s*** together and take the weight or lose Uncle Suga and Aunt NATO is cool with me. Here another thing in my opinion -we need to do: we need to better train our rank and file soldiers from day one to fight a counterinsurgency war. From bootcamp til deployment. A couple weeks of predeployment training or a 2 hour powerpoint presentation and off you go is not enough! Nah man...our higher heads understand counterinsurgency-it just needs to trickle down to the rank and file and not just the Special Forces dudes who fight like this. Our rank and file need to be better trained in cultural sensitivities, foreign languages and the way of the warrior-knowing when to bring it and when to use restraint. When out with the Canadians/ANA and we got into those "meet and greets" with Talib-it would of been very easy to join the bullet chorus and fire at nothing-like some of the ANA was doing. Our boys are amped up-ready to get down in firefights-that's how we trained them-but when the enemy doesn't play by "your rules" boys get frustrated and that's when fatal errors in judgment can happen or boys wind up being extra aggressive when a bit of diplomacy would of gone a long way. TCan Sgt. "Sean Penn" told me keep Martha on safe until positive identification (PID) was achieved. Shooting into a grape field and at a grape hut was no PID. I learned a lot in that moment and I am grateful for it. So let me switch chambers and lets talk about War Profiteering.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I am far from a motley fool nor a Warren Buffet but I peep the hustle and game . Lame jokes aside, what I am getting to is that you all need to get recoupment from this war. I mean we all are paying for it. Why should the MIC(Military Industrial Complex) just be the ones getting paid. As I said before -I have been watching and making note of companies making their coin here. Alot of our American corporations got Arab subsidiaries -for example like Coca-Coca-which by the way-they don't use that fructose corn syrup but REAL sugar and caffeine, A big difference in taste. It's only one of the few guilty pleasures I allow myself to have over here... It's another aspect of my patriotic duty in sharing potential stock tips so you too can be a war profiteer. Btw, the companies listed thus far are no gunmakers,bombmakers but yet there's a few that are tied to a crew of felonious infidels that helped drag us into this quagmire. If I have offended anyone's political leanings or leaders-just expressing my personal opinion. Why Hate? Participate! War profiteering is for everyone!

GOOGLE THESE COMPANIES:

OSK KOSH(OSK)-not the children clothes maker from the same Wisconsin town but the truck maker-they are probably gonna benefit from this surge.

COCA-COLA ENTERPRISES-the mothership of subsidairies of coke brands. Coke is everywhere. ditto for those hyper type energy drinks like Monster/AMP. Btw, Monster is under Coke.

PEPSI-ditto for the energy drinks(AMP?) that soldiers drink by the case.

TOIFOR-global life support services: they do portajon cleaning/maintenance, etc..most of the dirty/grimy jobs folks from the phillipines/sri lanka/india/nepal etc. are here to do.

SUPREME GLOBAL SERVICES-started by a US food service soldier during the cold war-they do the food/dining facility stuff. another life support service company.

ROSHAN or AFGHAN WIRELESS CELLULAR NETWORK-not sure what foreign stock market they are traded on.

KBR/HALLIBURTON-the devil. I know...but they still got contracts. "take the devil's money and do the Lord's work"

TOYOTA-the chosen vehicle of Osama Bin Laden/Taliban and the Mujahideen. The Toyota HI-LUX is a SUV driven everywhere around these parts. The image of a Russian .50 caliber (Dushka(sp)) or 20mm anti-aircraft gun bolted into the flatbed -is one of those iconic images of war in Afghanistan.

NESTLE-is the king of bottled water companies and a controversial company in the past. WAR OVER FRESH WATER IS COMING!!!! I SAID IT FIRST. ***This might lead you down the rabbit hole to look into those desalinization companies or technologies making fresh water out of salt water.

That's it for now. Hope all is good your way.

until next time.

peace.love.light

Gabe

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mark, you don't truly believe that do you?

Who supplied aid and weapons to the mujahadeen when the Soviets were there? The west led by the US.

Where did the taleban come from, that good friend of the west, Pakistan.

In my honest opinion we are now reaping the benefits of what we sowed.

They ignored that part of the world the second the Russians were defeated. The Congress defunded all the aid to that nation when the Russians pulled out. They IGNORED that country. IF the US pulls out again, they will be telling the Afghani's the west doens't care about their security, and they will end up with the Taliban or something like them once again. Watch the movie "Charlie Wilson's War" and understand that ole Charlie wanted to keep sending that money to buy aid and build schools and infrastructure, and help educate those people. He was shot down by members of his own party and the rest of Congress. That theory that many Americans naively have that the rest of the world can do their own thing and it wont effect what happens in America.

Well, it took about a decade and change but we saw one nice day in September that being a nice guy and ignoring problems doesn't work. The seeds of Al Quiada's holy war towards the US were sown by the US ignoring what was going on there, and when they did react, it was often half @ssed and ill thought out. Clinton pulled out of Somalia the second the Army lost soldiers. Clinton popped a few cruise missles into where the terror camps were in theory but never put people on the ground. Never COMMITTED to a long term strategy to stabilize and support people who actually care about their nation and the rights of their people. Bush just happened to be the poor guy in the oval office when they struck. He knew like all Presidents are told likely daily that there is a terror threat but no obvious action can be taken since the intelligence from this part of the world is so hit and miss.

The reason Obama should NOT show any signs of pulling out of Afghanistan is because people in that part of the world are ready for him to pull out. The terrorists tell the people on the ground that if you help the Western soldiers, they wont stay and then revenge will be exacted. This revenge WONT happen if the West stays and finally builds something of AFghanistan's political infrasturcture. It will be wasted lives if they pull out in a year. The Arab's have saying "You may have the clocks, but we have the time". When your enemy thinks that way, it would be very unwise to put any time table on pulling the troops out.

[Mark in Oshawa]

what don't radical islamists hate...they hate democracy,moderate islam etc etc etc..i wish they started hating food so all of them losers starve to death

Harsha, you are speaking wisely. Too many naively thinking people in the west just fail to grasp what this means. The people who most want to pull out of the Middle East are the ones who the Islamic radicals hate the most: Hollywood and the libreals who most want to ignore what is going on. Western society as a whole is the target, and since the US is the most obvious way to get attention, they are the biggest target.

I wish like hell Canada didn't have 3000 plus troops over there getting shot at and being blown up. I have stood on the overpass of the "Highway of Heroes" when some our dead of been brought home. I hope I never have to do it again, but they are not over there for a conquest. They are over there to try and stabilize a country that if left alone would be a home base for terrorists. The US is there for the same reasons. Why people fail to grasp you don't do this in 10 minutes just boggles my mind. If the current mindset was around in 1941, The Japanese would own the Pacific Ocean and Hitler's regime would still be all over Europe. When you commit to change things for the BETTER ( women's rights, democracy, freedom of speech and religion) in places like Iraq or Afghanistan, it isn't going to change overnight. Some might say the western nations shouldn't be doing this. In Iraq in retrospect they should not have invaded, but in Afghanistan, we should have. What is more, we may be the first invaders that have gone there in the long history that are trying to restore the nation to a stronger and better place by THEIR standards, not ours. Most people just trying to survive I think respect the Western soldiers and would respect them more if it wasn't so obvious they might bug out in the next year....

[Mark in Oshawa]

I've heard that Vietnam has been quite peaceful for over 30 years since the Americans left. Well, they invaded Cambodja and got rid of the US supported Pol Pot, but that's all.

Peaceful? Yes, once all the people who resisted the north were either "reeducated" or shot. You have no idea what went on but you can bet it wasn't pleasant.

As for Pol Pot, I fail to remember any American President or politician advocating Pol Pot murder half the country. You on the other hand have defended a number of dictators so I am surprised you are so harsh on Pol Pot. You didn't seem to mind Hussein killing 25000 of his citizens a year. You thought it was Iraq's problem. Well Pol Pot was Cambodia's problem by your argument.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Camel, the movie was dead on the money with the book and anything I read on Charlie Wilson. He went over there a few times and wanted to keep providing aid to the country knowing that they needed help to get out of the 13th century. That didn't happen because domestic politics and the "peace dividend" of the Cold War ending meant money being taken from Afghanistan to other pet projects.

[Mark in Oshawa]

---- I have a dear friend who is right now in uniform serving the USA army and serving his first month of his supposed 1 year war duties in Afghanistan.
My friend Gabe is a film producer/writer in his early 40's that joined the army as he was hounded by his college debts and the army offered to remedy his situation by offering to pay his debt and Gabe would do his part by being part of the communications division. Ideally all the weapons he would have to carry were his camera and his laptop but little did he know that he would also be trained to lock and load his shiny rifle and other exploding paraphernalia.

He has been sending us reports and with his permission - and I hope the mods don't mind - I am copying and pasting his latest one.

It is a very telling account of what is happening right now.
If my friend Gabe makes it past this adventure, he will have a lot of material to be able to manifest his talents with favorite weapons, his laptop and his cameras........

That's it for now. Hope all is good your way.

until next time.

peace.love.light

Gabe

I edited the quote so I could comment. I commend your friend Gabe Race. What he is saying basically is the US Military has to change how they approach working with the people on the ground. Heck, I knew THAT. The Canadian Army has had years of Peacekeeping missions where the whole goal is to use diplomacy and horse trading to help defuze tensions. That said, you still have to be ready to kill people and break things if the talking doesn't work. The credibility the Canadians have is giving back a lot more hurt than they take when the shooting is unavoidable. Where the US soldiers need to learn is to do as Gabe says the counterinurgency hearts and minds stuff. It is the one weakness of the US military mindset. The Marines and Army are great fighters, have lots of gee whiz toys, but they only seem to like killing things and breaking stuff....this occupying and taming the population through kindness isn't part of the institutional makeup. Which isn't to say US soldiers are bad, look no further than Gabe's narrative. I think he is a smart guy and isn't alone.

This isn't going to be easy, but to leave this part of the world again will only bring back further headaches for future generations. There are no easy solutions, and pressure needs to be brought up on Karzai and his tribal opposition to work together. The Surge and some good diplomacy by Petreaus got Iraq over the hump. Obama tho doesn't want to see that....and THAT will maybe stain his presidency. IF his Afghanistan policy fails, he will wear it. He took ownership of that war when he made his speech and with his rhetoric on the subject during the election. He said the US should win this war and solve the problem. Now he is President, he is waffling.....sad...

[Camelopard]

They ignored that part of the world the second the Russians were defeated............


I'm not talking about recent history, I'm talking about 'the great game' of the 1800's. Oh forget it, I can't be bothered.

[Easy Drifter]

Obama's putting a timeline on US staying in is about the most inept stupid thing he could have said. TheTaliban will jump all over that. 'See just hang in there and we will be back.' That will be the slant.
Canada has said we will pull out of a COMBAT role in 2011. Not pull out.
Our military has been so weakened by many years of underfunding and neglect they are already running on empty. Many regulars are on their 3rd tour and a huge percentage are volunteer reservists. They are putting their civilian careers on the line. They cannot be fired but depending in the Co. their future can be comprimised.
Oh and the Cdns, Dutch, and UK troops are right with the US forces in the hot areas, not staying in relatively safe areas.
It is also noticeable very few casulaties come from firefights but from UN declared illegal IED's.

[Camelopard]

This is a quote from a very similar thread this time last year on the 4th Dec 08, at 21:57 . He was good enough to give me his email address, I'm happy to provide it if you want to get in touch with him.


Why are people suprised? After all we (the west) helped set up and finance the very people/organisations that are perpetrating these acts of voilence.
All this stuff including 9/11 stems from the west's support of the Mujahidin in Afghanistan and their war against the Soviets.
So the initial aim was realised, that is the breakdown of the Soviet Union, however we have come to reap what we have sowed.
Whilst in Jordan earlier this year I spoke at length with with a Pakistani Army Officer who was studying at a military college near Madaba who confirmed this. He stated that the west's support for anti-Soviet action in this region had created a monster in the refugee camps in Pakistan that could not be put back in it's box and now we were all paying for it.
He was someone who had served on the front line in Kashmir and also along the border with Afghanistan so I actually respect his point of view.

[steve_spackman]

Afghanistan is where Empires go to fall...

[Mark in Oshawa]

I'm not talking about recent history, I'm talking about 'the great game' of the 1800's. Oh forget it, I can't be bothered.

True, but the Taliban are using justification for their hatred of the west out of anything they can dig up. What the Brit's did in the 1800's wasn't done to these people. Bin Laden doesn't quote the misdeeds of the Brit's when he spouts off. He declares a war against the west. Democracy, women's rights, right to a free assembly, libreal values. It matters little what their justification is, the fact remains they find lots of reasons to hate the Americans, which ignored that part of the world til the 80's and then forgot their responsiblity there in the 90's and now are back trying to do something right.

Walk away but the egg is still broken and it isn't going to make the people there like the west or their soldiers any more. Likely matters little. IN this part of the world, it is the fact they fight that counts, not for home or against what. They don't care that they are not winning this year or next year either. You can teach this hate for generations unless someone comes in there and puts a stop to the cycle of hate. By leaving, that isn't happening.

[steve_spackman]

Afghanistan, the graveyard of empires

what happens when the gardens of stone can no longer name the dead? Will the wind catch their souls and whisper their names to the midnight sky? Or will silence be the lullaby of the forgotten?

[Camelopard]

......What the Brit's did in the 1800's wasn't done to these people.....


Mark, I'm not talking about what the Brits did, I'm talking about how the Afghans have reacted to foreigners over their history.

The history of Afghanistan didn't start with the Soviet Invasion and 9/11.

Modern Afghanistan is a line drawn on a map by the colonialists which bares no resemblance to what the local people feel or think about their ancestry and their history.

The fact is that Afghanistan is another made up country, a country made up of many different tribes, I'm talking about the Pashtuns, Tajiks, Hazarans and others.

The locals, be they from whatever tribe have always fought against outside intervention, from way before Bin Laden was ever born.

[chuck34]

This is a quote from a very similar thread this time last year on the 4th Dec 08, at 21:57 . He was good enough to give me his email address, I'm happy to provide it if you want to get in touch with him.

bBut that still misses the point. It wasn't the support of the Mujahidin that created this mess. It was the sudden stop to that support.

Had the US upheld our end of the promises made back in the 80's (building schools, roads, hospitals, etc) those people living in Afghanistan would have been living quite different lives throughout the 90's and may not have tolorated Bin Laden. Who afterall is also a foreigner, and as you have pointed Afghans don't really like foreigners. Why do you think they accepted him? Could it be that he gave them a sence of purpose, money, infrestructure, hope?

That is what the Afghan people need more than anything, HOPE. And if we went in there, pushed the Taliban out, gave women rights, gave everyone education, food, access to hospitals, decent roads, a job, etc. You know something that no other foreign power has ever tried (except perhaps Bin Laden) we might end up with a different result.

[steve_spackman]

bBut that still misses the point. It wasn't the support of the Mujahidin that created this mess. It was the sudden stop to that support.

Had the US upheld our end of the promises made back in the 80's (building schools, roads, hospitals, etc) those people living in Afghanistan would have been living quite different lives throughout the 90's and may not have tolorated Bin Laden. Who afterall is also a foreigner, and as you have pointed Afghans don't really like foreigners. Why do you think they accepted him? Could it be that he gave them a sence of purpose, money, infrestructure, hope?

That is what the Afghan people need more than anything, HOPE. And if we went in there, pushed the Taliban out, gave women rights, gave everyone education, food, access to hospitals, decent roads, a job, etc. You know something that no other foreign power has ever tried (except perhaps Bin Laden) we might end up with a different result.

That result would be another government that caters to the whims of the US...another corrupt false government, just like what they did in Iraq and want to do throughout the entire Middle East....Sorry but the hope you talk of is nothing more than false hope...its a game of hearts and minds to win the people over, then take control of the country...Keep fighting these wars America, keep sending your troops to die for an unjust cause...I just sit on the sidelines and watch the suffering that is being caused on both sides....the families of US soldiers being lied to by their CIC and their sons and daughters coming home in body bags and not in good health and the poor Afghan families whom suffer the same fate as the families in Iraq and Gaza...being killed for nothing. Sorry not being killed for nothing, but being killed for something they have no control over..

[Eki]

They ignored that part of the world the second the Russians were defeated. The Congress defunded all the aid to that nation when the Russians pulled out. They IGNORED that country. IF the US pulls out again, they will be telling the Afghani's the west doens't care about their security, and they will end up with the Taliban or something like them once again.
Which Afghanis are you talking about? The secular ones protected by the communists and the Soviets or the Islamic ones protected by the Taliban and the US, or something in between?

[Eki]

This revenge WONT happen if the West stays and finally builds something of AFghanistan's political infrasturcture.

It will. Building political infrastructure of an enemy won't wash away the memory of dead relatives and friends, and it won't wash away the humiliation and hurt feelings of nationalism/patriotism either. The Nazis failed to impose their political infrastructure forcefully on foreign countries, so did the Soviets eventually, and it's likely the US will fail too.

[harsha]

I fail to see any definite policy being adopted by the "west" in dealing with terror in Pakistan n Afghanistan

[Eki]

Peaceful? Yes, once all the people who resisted the north were either "reeducated" or shot. You have no idea what went on but you can bet it wasn't pleasant.

As for Pol Pot, I fail to remember any American President or politician advocating Pol Pot murder half the country. You on the other hand have defended a number of dictators so I am surprised you are so harsh on Pol Pot. You didn't seem to mind Hussein killing 25000 of his citizens a year. You thought it was Iraq's problem. Well Pol Pot was Cambodia's problem by your argument.
Harsh? I was just reminding you of historical facts. The US in its usual petty fashion opposed Vietnam just because it was Vietnam:

The U.S. opposed the Vietnamese military occupation of Cambodia, and in the mid-1980s supported insurgents opposed to the regime of Heng Samrin, approving $5 million in aid to the Khmer People's National Liberation Front of former prime minister Son Sann and the pro-Sihanouk ANS in 1985. Regardless of this, Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge remained the best-trained and most capable of the three insurgent groups who, despite sharply divergent ideologies, had formed the Coalition Government of Democratic Kampuchea (CGDK) alliance three years earlier. China continued to funnel extensive military aid to the Khmer Rouge, and critics of U.S. foreign policy claimed that the U.S. was indirectly sponsoring the Khmer Rouge due to U.S. assistance given the CGDK in keeping control of the United Nations "seat" of Cambodia.[18][19][20] The U.S. refused to recognize the Cambodian government installed by the army of Vietnam or to recognize any Cambodian government operating while Cambodia was under the military occupation of Vietnam.

During this period, the Khmer Rouge was able to rebuild its military, now titled the "National Army of Democratic Kampuchea" (NADK), as well as its infamous ruling party, the Communist Party of Kampuchea (CPK), the sinister and shadowy "angkar", in the mountain area of Phnom Malai. By mid-1980s, with the cooperation of the West and China, the Khmer Rouge had grown to about 35 to 50 thousand troops and committed cadres.[21]

[Eki]

You can teach this hate for generations unless someone comes in there and puts a stop to the cycle of hate.
Puts a stop how? By hunting and killing them until they love you? I can't see how that would work.

[Eki]

That is what the Afghan people need more than anything, HOPE. And if we went in there, pushed the Taliban out, gave women rights, gave everyone education, food, access to hospitals, decent roads, a job, etc. You know something that no other foreign power has ever tried (except perhaps Bin Laden) we might end up with a different result.
Many, probably most Afghan men, don't want women to have more rights or education. And what women want doesn't matter much in that part of the world. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The Soviets already tried to give them women rights, education, health care, etc. Didn't catch in the long run.

[Eki]

bBut that still misses the point. It wasn't the support of the Mujahidin that created this mess. It was the sudden stop to that support.

Had the US upheld our end of the promises made back in the 80's (building schools, roads, hospitals, etc) those people living in Afghanistan would have been living quite different lives throughout the 90's and may not have tolorated Bin Laden. Who afterall is also a foreigner, and as you have pointed Afghans don't really like foreigners. Why do you think they accepted him? Could it be that he gave them a sence of purpose, money, infrestructure, hope?

Maybe he gave them friendship and respect and din't try to rule them or tell them how they should live? When after 9/11 the Taliban was demanded to hand over bin Laden, they replied that he was their guest and they won't hand over their guests. It's like the Nazi-Germany asked Finland to give them the Finnish Jews and the Finnish Commander in Chief Mannerheim replied that the Finnish Jews are Finns as any other Finn and that Finland doesn't hand over their own citizens.

[Camelopard]

bBut that still misses the point. It wasn't the support of the Mujahidin that created this mess. It was the sudden stop to that support......


That may well be your very own opinion.

The guy I spoke to at length and asked questions of is a Senior Pakistani Army Officer!

I'm more likely to believe his opinions rather than getting my facts from some hollywood film. Based on fact or not it is still a film, made for entertainment.

[anthonyvop]

That may well be your very own opinion.

The guy I spoke to at length and asked questions of is a Senior Pakistani Army Officer!


And that makes him an expert why?

And he would tell you the truth why?

[Camelopard]

And that makes him an expert why?

And he would tell you the truth why?


Because he lived it vop, isn't that according to a previous post by you, the only way to 'learn' history? Best you get back to playing with your 'blackberry' or whatever your latest term of endearment for it is! :)

Do you really believe I give a toss about what you think, you a supporter of a murdering terrorist?

By the way how is your mate p.o.s.ada? Had coffee with him lately?

[chuck34]

That result would be another government that caters to the whims of the US...another corrupt false government, just like what they did in Iraq and want to do throughout the entire Middle East....Sorry but the hope you talk of is nothing more than false hope...its a game of hearts and minds to win the people over, then take control of the country...Keep fighting these wars America, keep sending your troops to die for an unjust cause...I just sit on the sidelines and watch the suffering that is being caused on both sides....the families of US soldiers being lied to by their CIC and their sons and daughters coming home in body bags and not in good health and the poor Afghan families whom suffer the same fate as the families in Iraq and Gaza...being killed for nothing. Sorry not being killed for nothing, but being killed for something they have no control over..

You may think that it is unjust, I do not. The Taliban gave support and sancuary to Al-Queda, who have done many nasty things if you'll recall. I'm sorry if you don't agree, but that regime HAD to be taken from power. If they would have been alowed to keep doing what they were/are doing then how long do you think it would have been before another 9/11? We tried the "minimilist" tactic many are proposing (cruse missles and the like) after the USS Cole, and the embassy bombings. Obviously that tactic didn't work. So Al-Queda had to be delt with in a more direct way, and to do that we also had to deal with the Taliban. Had we not, how many more attacks would have been acceptable before we did?

And once we broke the system there, it was/is our responsibilty to try and fix it. THAT is the lesson of the Soviet/80's era.

[chuck34]

That may well be your very own opinion.

The guy I spoke to at length and asked questions of is a Senior Pakistani Army Officer!

I'm more likely to believe his opinions rather than getting my facts from some hollywood film. Based on fact or not it is still a film, made for entertainment.

Senior Pakistani officers can't ever be wrong, or miss something, or maybe just didn't go over that part of thing in your conversation with him? Did you ask him what he thinks would have happened had we continued support for them like we had promised? Does this officer have something against these guys? Not every Pakistani likes Afghans, perhaps there are animosities to begin with, agendas to push, axes to grind?

Lay off the damn film. I know WAY more on the subject than what was in the movie. It was/is just a way to get people interested in things. And besides that, where is it wrong? What fact did it get wrong? What fact have I misstated?

[chuck34]

Maybe he gave them friendship and respect and din't try to rule them or tell them how they should live? When after 9/11 the Taliban was demanded to hand over bin Laden, they replied that he was their guest and they won't hand over their guests. It's like the Nazi-Germany asked Finland to give them the Finnish Jews and the Finnish Commander in Chief Mannerheim replied that the Finnish Jews are Finns as any other Finn and that Finland doesn't hand over their own citizens.

Yes Bin Laden, an admitted terrorist who wants to bring down the US government is just like innocent Jews living in Finland.

You have a twisted sence of reality my man.

[Eki]

Yes Bin Laden, an admitted terrorist who wants to bring down the US government is just like innocent Jews living in Finland.

You have a twisted sence of reality my man.
And you have a twisted sense of pride, if you think the Americans are the only ones too proud to hand over their own or their guests just because some foreign power says so. Do you think the Americans would hand over George W Bush who wanted to bring down the Iraqi government to an international war crimes tribunal if they were asked? I don't. They didn't even turn over to an Iraqi court those American GIs who raped a teenage Iraqi girl and killed her and her family to cover it up.

[chuck34]

And you have a twisted sense of pride, if you think the Americans are the only ones too proud to hand over their own or their guests just because some foreign power says so. Do you think the Americans would hand over George W Bush who wanted to bring down the Iraqi government to an international war crimes tribunal if they were asked? I don't. They didn't even turn over to an Iraqi court those American GIs who raped a teenage Iraqi girl and killed her and her family to cover it up.

That took longer than I expected Eki. It took 56 posts into this thread for you to turn it into an Anti-Bush rant. I expect better from you next time.

But you go on thinking that rounding up innocent Jews was a-ok. I wouldn't want to mess with your world view.

[Eki]

But you go on thinking that rounding up innocent Jews was a-ok.
I didn't say it would have been a-ok. I didn't say handing over bin Laden would have been a-ok or overthrowing Bush would have been a-ok or overthrowing Saddam Hussein was a-ok. I say a-ok is in the eye of the beholder.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mark, I'm not talking about what the Brits did, I'm talking about how the Afghans have reacted to foreigners over their history.

The history of Afghanistan didn't start with the Soviet Invasion and 9/11.

Modern Afghanistan is a line drawn on a map by the colonialists which bares no resemblance to what the local people feel or think about their ancestry and their history.

The fact is that Afghanistan is another made up country, a country made up of many different tribes, I'm talking about the Pashtuns, Tajiks, Hazarans and others.

The locals, be they from whatever tribe have always fought against outside intervention, from way before Bin Laden was ever born.

I don't disagree on this one, but that is for the Afghani's to decided. The problem is, the last time we left them alone, the Taliban ran the whole country as a feudal Islamic state while harbouring a terrorist organization that killed 3000 odd people in about 2 hours in the US. THAT is why we are there now. To leave now compounds the errors of the past. I am not saying even that staying is a great solution, but I know problems don't go away by ignoring them. Getting some sort of order in the nation is a priority. After that, fi they want to to split the nation among tribal lines, that is ok....just as long as they realize that anything they do that affects the outside world could trigger more outsiders to come back. I keep going back to it. Afghanistan was being left alone inspite of Bin Laden. Clinton did his level best to ignore the provocations...and look what happened. The US was dragged back in. If they had provided guidance and money after the Russians had left, none of this would have happened.

Western nations that create issues and then ignore them always end up paying for the ignorance in the end....

[Mark in Oshawa]

That result would be another government that caters to the whims of the US...another corrupt false government, just like what they did in Iraq and want to do throughout the entire Middle East....Sorry but the hope you talk of is nothing more than false hope...its a game of hearts and minds to win the people over, then take control of the country...Keep fighting these wars America, keep sending your troops to die for an unjust cause...I just sit on the sidelines and watch the suffering that is being caused on both sides....the families of US soldiers being lied to by their CIC and their sons and daughters coming home in body bags and not in good health and the poor Afghan families whom suffer the same fate as the families in Iraq and Gaza...being killed for nothing. Sorry not being killed for nothing, but being killed for something they have no control over..

If the Iraqi gov't is a false puppet, how come they spend so much time NOT doing what the US White House wants? They are finding their own way, as they should. As for Afghanistan, no one power is strong enough yet to hang onto the place. The Taliban did it through sheer brutality and terror. I guess THAT didn't count because it wasn't the US doing it? Tell that to all the women brutalized under that regime. Kids getting whipped for flying a freaking kite. Ya...we want THAT do we?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Puts a stop how? By hunting and killing them until they love you? I can't see how that would work.
The only people getting killed by Western nations military are the ones either starting fire fights with them or putting bombs in the road. Or the suicide bombers that roll up to military units.

THe peasant farmers in the hinterland just want to do their thing. The fact 120 odd Canadians were killed at last count (126 I believe) is a reflection that they are NOT out fighting the populace. The Taliban wants their country back so THEY can kill and threaten the locals. Just like they did when the NATO soldiers were NOT there. You keep conveniently forgetting that Afghanistan was an oppressive place with death, political persecution and religious persecution being carried out at a scale that makes what is going on now look tame. You hate our troops there EKi. I get that. You always want to just point at them as the villans and what you never once admit is that what they displaced was far more harsh and harmful to the innocent farmer just wanting to please Allah by being a humble farmer and raising his family.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Maybe he gave them friendship and respect and din't try to rule them or tell them how they should live? When after 9/11 the Taliban was demanded to hand over bin Laden, they replied that he was their guest and they won't hand over their guests. It's like the Nazi-Germany asked Finland to give them the Finnish Jews and the Finnish Commander in Chief Mannerheim replied that the Finnish Jews are Finns as any other Finn and that Finland doesn't hand over their own citizens.

It isn't the same and you know it. First off the Finnish commander was part of a nation that had a moral code and was making a decision that could invite a Nazi attack and made it anyhow. Doing the Right thing. The Taliban believed women were a subclass of humans, punished kids for flying kites and/or music, and shot and tortured people that didn't agree with them. NOT the same kind of government or leadership as WW2 era Finland.

Furthermore, If you want to accept that Bin Laden was some sort of noble hero who should be protected, than you obviously have no moralistic code. Nations that harbour terrorists that are responsible (at his own admission and great pride) as Bin Laden was for 9/11 are not to be harboured by civilized nations.

Furthermore. Here is a clue for you Eki. Many of us in this world ceased caring a long time ago by what you think is right with your simplisitic moral relativism. Afghanistan was run by a regime that would rather provoke an outside military to come in and assist its enemies to push it out than give up Bin Laden for reasons that are NOT noble or worthy of any kind of praise from any civilized thinking person. The US Military is NOT the instigator of this mess. The American government and the public would be quite happy to NOT be in Afghanistan believe me. But you don't let someone kill 3000 people roughly in 2 hours on your shores without putting a stop to it. A sovereign nation's leaders must try to protect it's citizens from outside threats. If the Taliban coughed up Bin Laden and his merry band of terrorists, the Taliban would still be in power. So basically you want to just defend the stupid.

Unlike the Finnish commander, who was a moral man, this was NOT smart. Defending your nation from invasion for the princple of harbouring a terrorist is not rational, moral or smart. Unlike your Finnish co-patriot who as defying the Nazi's for what is right, the Taliban were just being contrary, or stupid. Just like Saddam, who didn't think Bush would invade......

[Langdale Forest]

We should get all out troops out of Afganistan and then nuke the place.

That's the only way to get rid if the TALIBAN,