Scottish Independence

[Rollo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8386031.stm
Scotland's First Minister Alex Salmond has pledged to put forward a referendum bill on Scottish independence. The minority SNP administration currently does not have enough support to pass such a bill as Labour, the Tories and the Lib Dems all oppose the plan.
The announcement came as part of a white paper on Scotland's constitutional future.

The way I understand this, the SNP and specifically Alex Salmond are basically trying to stir up some sort of nationalism in the hope of creating a name for themselves.

I would have thought that the biggest issues in Scottish politics would have been mainly to do with economic and employment issues; if that's the case would the SNP have any idea how to address those?

It all seems truly pointless to me.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

One thing I want to know

Scotland has its own government
Wales as its own assembly
Northern Ireland has its own Assembly
Britain has a government

But what about England?

I'm all for keeping the United Kingdom united. I always get worked up when I hear Scots and English claiming that they are not British, they are Scottish/English. Unless you are over 302 years old then I'm afraid you are British!

[Mark]

The way I see it, I can't see any reason for Scotland not to be an independent country. They have everything a soverign state needs, with the possible issue of how to divide up the military.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

The way I see it, I can't see any reason for Scotland not to be an independent country. They have everything a soverign state needs, with the possible issue of how to divide up the military.

Has everything a sovereign nation needs? Does this include huge loans from The Bank of England to help keep Scottish banks afloat?

[Mark]

Has everything a sovereign nation needs? Does this include huge loans from The Bank of England to help keep Scottish banks afloat?

A temporary arrangement and no reason to deny Scottish independence long term. Besides, the banks concerned may have "Scotland" in their title, but they are as much English as they are Scottish.
Indeed it was a bailout from the English treasury which initially brought about the union between Scotland and England.

[V12]

My view, maybe an overly simplistic one - is that if the majority of the Scottish population want independence - good luck to them. If they don't, then keep things as they are. Same for Northern Ireland or any other part of the UK come to think of it. And as far as I know the majority of all home countries currently want to remain part of the UK for the time being, of course I may be wrong.

If they don't have the infrastructure to survive as an independent country, then that's for the people to consider when making their decision.

[DexDexter]

The way I see it, I can't see any reason for Scotland not to be an independent country. They have everything a soverign state needs, with the possible issue of how to divide up the military.

My question is what good would it do to them? I don't get it. There are cases in Europe where "independence" hasn't been so rosy. The Czech and Slovaks went their separate ways a while ago and now one is doing very well and the other is not.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I just see it as pointless nationalism from the Scots part.

[Sonic]

No, no, no. no. A thousand times NO! Terrible idea, we are the United Kingdom! I can think of no good reason to split.

[Mark]

My question is what good would it do to them? I don't get it. There are cases in Europe where "independence" hasn't been so rosy. The Czech and Slovaks went their separate ways a while ago and now one is doing very well and the other is not.

Because they are a country with their own identity and customs so why shouldn't they be?

[Rudy Tamasz]

My question is what good would it do to them? I don't get it. There are cases in Europe where "independence" hasn't been so rosy. The Czech and Slovaks went their separate ways a while ago and now one is doing very well and the other is not.

One or two per cent more or less of economic growth is not a valid argument pro or contra independence. It is more than that. Would you Finns still want to be a part of the huge Russian market with an access to all gas, oil and gems?

[Eki]

Willie hears ya, Willie don't care.

http://www.richmolnar.com/Sounds/Willy%20-%20Willy%20hears%20ya.wav

[Sonic]

I think they should have a peoples vote and do what the people want.

Only about a third of the population even want a vote on the topic.

[wedge]

RBS had to bailed out by the UK government/British taxpayers!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

The only thing Scotland has going for it is its North Sea oil. Apart from that they get far more out of being in the UK than England does.

[Sonic]

Which is running out

[Mark in Oshawa]

18 posts and no Canadians have chimed in. Why? Quebec.

Unlike Scotland and the UK, we have two cultures that are truly different. Canadians have been in the never ending trip to the dentist that is the threat of Quebec Separtism. 2 Referendums, a terrorist uprising and god knows how many concessions to try to get the Province to agree to the amended Constitution that THEY demanded. They also demand we dump any connection we have to our parent country (the UK) never mind it was British money, people's and culture that was modified by the Canadian experience (with the best of Quebec's good ideas in the 1860's) that became Canada.

Quebec, unlike Scotland has a culture that has a different language, different roots, a different law system (civil law in Quebec is under the Napoleonic code), and a different outlook on the world. They have demanded bilingualism. They got it without letting English be used on any signs in the province, and if you live there, you cannot educate your kids in English unless you were born there as an English speaker. They have demanded all sorts of changes to the Canadian Constitution, and want a veto over all amendments, while only being one province of 10. In Quebec, they have made lots of demands, while taking more in federal transfers than they contribute to Canada in taxes and the like. In short, the Quebec Separtists are twice the jerks a Scottish nationlist could be on his worst day.

So you would think I would say we should toss Quebec ; and that England should tell the Scots to not let the door hit them in the @ss on the way out. You would be wrong, on both counts. Neither a sovereign Scotland nor Quebec would be any better off, and the country they left would be the poorer for their leaving. Canada needs Quebec if for no other reason than to have someone question everything. Their culture makes us unique from the Yankee's to the south, and their athletes and artists have added to Canada. Just like the Scots have added a lot to the culture of the UK.

The Scot's have their culture, and their uniqueness. they gain NOTHING from separation, and Quebec would be worse off. They might have to speak English in a sea of English speakers. What is more, immigrants wouldn't go there in the numbers they do now, because there would be no economic benefit to being in a linguistic island in a sea of English.

The Scots have LESS difference in their culture than the Quebecois do in Canada, and I cannot make a case for the French to bail on this country. I think anyone entertaining separatist thoughts in either "nation" are just using nationalism to gain power. Shameless...

[Hondo]

I haven't chimed in because I don't know enough about it. Nowadays, it seems like every bloodline wants to be their own Peoples Republic of Some Silly Thing. On the other hand, I believe there is such a thing as being "too big" be it a country, a government, or business.

Before any group pursues it's independence there are some serious issues they need to consider before jumping up and down and waving their flag. As the thread is about Scotland, that's where I'll direct my questions which are based on a stand alone Scotland with no treaties or alliances.

Can Scotland feed it's own population using only it's internal resources? That should be a yes for anybody wanting independence.

How much wealth are the productive people willing to allow the government to have to pay for infrastructure, defense, and social programs?

Possible loss of independence through conquest. If Putin decides he wants Scotland as a summer home and the rest of the world through the UN are only willing to apply sanctions, what will you do?

[Mark]

I'm sure its the same in Scotland. I found it hilarious because I was often told by my Welsh friends that the English hate the Welsh, but I don't and none of my friends back home do either, but to be told that I do was highly amusing.

I've found that too. The English love the Welsh and the Scottish, but they both hate the English!

[Eki]

I've found that too. The English love the Welsh and the Scottish, but they both hate the English!
They are just jealous!

[DexDexter]

One or two per cent more or less of economic growth is not a valid argument pro or contra independence. It is more than that. Would you Finns still want to be a part of the huge Russian market with an access to all gas, oil and gems?

Well, we've never had anything in common with the Russians (the Scots do with the English), and by the way, we were under their rule for just 100 years or so. Finland used to be part of Sweden in the old days for hundreds of years. The UK is not a dictatorship, so the comparison to old-day Russia is not valid.

[Mark in Oshawa]

There really is no other applicable case where two cultures so linked and simliarly bound by language have people wanting to separate in the smaller entity. Quebecois at least hide behind their language saying they are trying to protect it while failing to grasp they would have been forced to assimlate a long time ago if NOT for English Canada's tolerence. The Scots have kept their culture, have kept their traditions (haggis anyone?) and kept their identity. It is a complete red herring that if followed to its conclusion will allow a bunch of people who cannot gain power by any other way gaining power for their own ends. IN short, a political ploy....and I am glad most Scots see it for what it is.

[Easy Drifter]

Good Grief Charlie Brown. We have a Cdn. pointing out they are Scots not Scottish!
My ancestry is mostly border clan Scot. Add in some English. Then some Spanish. An ancestor, who was a Lady-in Waiting to Elizabeth 1 lost her head literally because she had married a Spanish nobleman before things went sour. Think Armada.
Being Border Clan Scots we were always in fights with English (see George MacDonald Frazer's book 'The Steel Bonnets') and my immediate portion of the clan got shipped to Ireland where we promptly got in more trouble. Grandfather was turfed to Canada, became a gun for hire, a Mountie and eventually a Judge. On my mother's side add in some Dutch.
I have a massive book tracing our history back to and before MacBeth! Yes he existed. Technically I have a minor title (never used) and am probably about 30 some odd thousands or more in line for the throne.
Big effing and useless deal.
My Scots/Celtic temper can flare on extremly rare ocassions.
I have always tried to avoid a physical fight but if it happens I am berserker who goes crazy, and I am totally without emotion as to destructive power. Not nice and have had to be stopped from killing more than once.
Relax Eki. You do not really get me mad nor does any one else on here.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I didn't call them Scott's drifter..I call them Scot's....

Put down the Claymore.... All I was pointing out was how stupid their idea of separation is from the UK in light of the stupidity if the neverending trip to the dentist that is dealing with the Parti Quebecois and the Bloc Quebecois. Narcissistic politicians using a nationalist movement for their weak reasons to gain power is just a bad idea....

[Rudy Tamasz]

Well, we've never had anything in common with the Russians (the Scots do with the English), and by the way, we were under their rule for just 100 years or so. Finland used to be part of Sweden in the old days for hundreds of years. The UK is not a dictatorship, so the comparison to old-day Russia is not valid.

Nice to see such sophisticated reasoning. ;) You seem to have a lot in common with your prominent fellow countryman Ahtisaari, who designed the independence of Kosovo based on dictatorship and difference of identity factors despite complete nonviability of Kosovo in terms of economy and pretty much everything else.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

If Scotland became inderpendent would my passport still say British?

[MrJan]

I've found that too. The English love the Welsh and the Scottish, but they both hate the English!

I thought that the English couldn't care less? I certainly couldn't give a toss.......except when Scottish people try to palm their funny money onto me.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I thought that the English couldn't care less? I certainly couldn't give a toss.......except when Scottish people try to palm their funny money onto me.

I've never understood why some people in England don't accept Scottish money.

[MrJan]

I've never understood why some people in England don't accept Scottish money.

Because it's not that common in Devon :p :

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Because it's not that common in Devon :p :

Have they not heard of Scotland down there? :p

[MrJan]

Have they not heard of Scotland down there? :p

Not enough to care :D :D :D

[Sonic]

I've never understood why some people in England don't accept Scottish money.

A personal pet peeve of mine.

[Rollo]

If Scotland became inderpendent would my passport still say British?

Currently it says the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" which is quite an apt description.

Great Britain is an island upon which the Kingdoms of England and Scotland which are united sit. Wales doesn't need to be included as it's subjugated to the Kingdom of England via the Laws in Wales Acts 1535–1542.

If Scotland is independant, presumably it retains the Queen but would be a separate entity, unless it decides to be a Republic, but that would be difficult because legally the monarch is firstly Queen of Scotland before she's Queen of England.

[MrJan]

A personal pet peeve of mine.

And most Scottish people. The problem is that it looks different so it will always be questioned. It's the same whenever there are new notes or ones that aren't seen very often, for example there are some places who don't like accepting £50 notes. If the Scots are so keen on being considered seperate from the English then it doesn't make sense to get upset when the English treat them as seperate.

[Eki]

Nice to see such sophisticated reasoning. ;) You seem to have a lot in common with your prominent fellow countryman Ahtisaari, who designed the independence of Kosovo based on dictatorship and difference of identity factors despite complete nonviability of Kosovo in terms of economy and pretty much everything else.

Ethnic Albanians in Kosovo didn't care about economy, so why should Ahtisaari have cared? He doesn't even have to live there and economy isn't everything. But what do I know, I don't even understand why Belorussia is independent and not part of the other Russia. Like the old saying in Finland goes, "a Russian is a Russian even if you fried him in butter".

[Macd]

Quebec, unlike Scotland has a culture that has a different language, different roots, a different law system (civil law in Quebec is under the Napoleonic code), and a different outlook on the world.
Here in Scotland we have a different language (in Gaelic) , legal system (scots law) and education.


Technically I have a minor title (never used) and am probably about 30 some odd thousands or more in line for the throne. That depends on whether your ancestors were catholic or not.

[MrJan]

I have a massive book tracing our history back to and before MacBeth! Yes he existed. Technically I have a minor title (never used) and am probably about 30 some odd thousands or more in line for the throne.

I have yet to meet an American or Canadian who doesn't claim to have proof that they descended from someone either Scottish or Irish, usually of some standing :p :

My great grandmother was Scottish and she shagged some bloke from New Zealand but both my parents and I were born in SW England so I'm English. And I don't mind calling myself English, I'll cheer on the England football and rugby teams and couldn't give a toss about the Olympics....Colin McRae was British though ;) :p :

[Macd]

Colin McRae was British though ;) :p :

I would have liked to have seen you say that to him

[MrJan]

I would have liked to have seen you say that to him

People said it all the time though, he was always known (and always will be) as the first British world rally champion. :D Kinda ironic for a through and through Scot like Colin :D

[Brown, Jon Brow]

People said it all the time though, he was always known (and always will be) as the first British world rally champion. :D Kinda ironic for a through and through Scot like Colin :D

If Scotland gained independence would Colin still be Britains first WRC champion or would it be passed on to Richard?

[MrJan]

If Scotland gained independence would Colin still be Britains first WRC champion or would it be passed on to Richard?

I'm probably not the best person to ask philosophical s*** like that :D :D :p :

[Rollo]

Here in Scotland we have a different language (in Gaelic).

There were the Gaels, the Picts and the Vikings who were all at enmity with each other.

Kenneth MacAlpine (don't even get started about spelling this, it's a nightmare) may have been the first "King in Scotland" and Constantine was the first king to unify the people but Donald II is the first king styled as "King of Scots" and I don't really know why that distinction is made particularly of him...

... we do know that he was called Dásachtach, which is either a madman or a psycho.

[Macd]

There were the Gaels, the Picts and the Vikings who were all at enmity with each other.

Kenneth MacAlpine (don't even get started about spelling this, it's a nightmare) may have been the first "King in Scotland" and Constantine was the first king to unify the people but Donald II is the first king styled as "King of Scots" and I don't really know why that distinction is made particularly of him...

... we do know that he was called Dásachtach, which is either a madman or a psycho.

I know this. How is that related my quote?

[Rollo]

Gaelic >>> Gaels... it's a segue :D with a question attached thereafter.

[Macd]

Kenneth MacAlpine (don't even get started about spelling this, it's a nightmare)

Cináed mac Ailpín :)


I don't speak Gaelic but Google does ;)

[MrJan]

I don't speak Gaelic but Google does ;)

HOw common is Gaelic? Is it like Welsh where parts of the country still use it regularly and there is a drive to bring it back. Or is it like Cornish and no bugger speaks it but there is still some strange desire to hold onto it?

I could probably speak more Cornish than most Cornish people, even though it is limited:

I know "meur ras" and "megi diffenys". One means "no smoking" and the other means "thank you", can never remember which because I learnt them in a pub and was usually pissed.

The other phrase I know is kendarvo mardot which means hello sailor, but the only reason I know that is because my Dad (and this is where it gets weird) decide to learn how to say hello sailor in a variety of languages.

[Macd]

HOw common is Gaelic? Is it like Welsh where parts of the country still use it regularly and there is a drive to bring it back. Or is it like Cornish and no bugger speaks it but there is still some strange desire to hold onto it?


Its like welsh. Quite common in the north and the islands. Certainly in the Hebrides.

[Eki]

The other phrase I know is kendarvo mardot which means hello sailor, but the only reason I know that is because my Dad (and this is where it gets weird) decide to learn how to say hello sailor in a variety of languages.
Does your dad have a habit to walk in a harbour wearing high heels and a mini-skirt?

[Rudy Tamasz]

Ethnic Albanians in Kosovo didn't care about economy, so why should Ahtisaari have cared? He doesn't even have to live there and economy isn't everything.

This is exactly the point I was trying to make in response to people envoking the issue of economic growth to explain who deserves independence and who doesn't. Economy has very little to do with independence, indeed. It is a political question and in politics power is everything. If a certain group is decisive on having the power to govern itself, there's no stopping it, economy or no economy.


But what do I know, I don't even understand why Belorussia is independent and not part of the other Russia. Like the old saying in Finland goes, "a Russian is a Russian even if you fried him in butter".

See above. We are quite happy to govern ourselves and have no intention to cede our power to either Moscow or Brussels. As for allegedly being "Russian" you may go any random Russian town and then to any random Belarusian town to draw a comparison. You won't need to go deeply into analysis. The differences will strike you once you get off the bus or train.

[MrJan]

Does your dad have a habit to walk in a harbour wearing high heels and a mini-skirt?

Surprisingly no :p :

[Rudy Tamasz]

Henners88, you are most likely correct in your analysis and I am not arguing with you. What I am saying is that if Scotlands decides to become independent, the economic factor will not deter them even if they have to pay a price. After it is done, they may have second thoughts, but that's another story...

[Brown, Jon Brow]

x1j31AnF1zs

[Schurke]

I think Scotland would be better off independant. Surely a government with the sole purpose to look after the country and around 5 million people would do a better job than a government in London who have to look after > 50 million (?) people and who have to govern 4 different countries. (to a certain extent)

I personally don´t feel British. I except I am British and have no problem with that, but I just feel more Scottish than British.

I think all the sporting rivalries drum up the cause, whether it´s football, rugby, rally, (McRae v Burns 2001) it´s always billed "Battle of Britain".
I never really felt any connection to the British Olympic teams, but I did to the Scottish teams during Commenwealth games.

Anyhoo, I think things can´t get any worse in Scotland at the moment, so why give it a try?

[Hondo]

I don't understand the arguement that economics is not a major part of independence. Independence is the ability to stand alone on your own merit. An "independent country" that cannot feed and provide for it's population on it's own, exists only through the grace of other nations.

It reminds me of all the children of legal age still living at home mooching off of Mom and Dad loudly protesting they are adults when being reminded of house rules. Alright kid, you're an adult. Now, go be independent elsewhere.

[Sonic]

I think Scotland would be better off independant. Surely a government with the sole purpose to look after the country and around 5 million people would do a better job than a government in London who have to look after > 50 million (?) people and who have to govern 4 different countries. (to a certain extent)

I personally don´t feel British. I except I am British and have no problem with that, but I just feel more Scottish than British.

I think all the sporting rivalries drum up the cause, whether it´s football, rugby, rally, (McRae v Burns 2001) it´s always billed "Battle of Britain".
I never really felt any connection to the British Olympic teams, but I did to the Scottish teams during Commenwealth games.

Anyhoo, I think things can´t get any worse in Scotland at the moment, so why give it a try?

So your one of the 30 odd %? I'm pretty much the opposite on all of the abovei'm proud to be both British and Scottish but if some fool looking to become a big fish in a small pond from the SNP told me I had to pick; British would win out every time. We are far stronger as a union.

[Eki]

I don't understand the arguement that economics is not a major part of independence. Independence is the ability to stand alone on your own merit. An "independent country" that cannot feed and provide for it's population on it's own, exists only through the grace of other nations.

It reminds me of all the children of legal age still living at home mooching off of Mom and Dad loudly protesting they are adults when being reminded of house rules. Alright kid, you're an adult. Now, go be independent elsewhere.
Some kids go, and some of them end up on the street selling their body for drugs. So, sometimes pride of independence can trump economical security.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Henners88, you are most likely correct in your analysis and I am not arguing with you. What I am saying is that if Scotlands decides to become independent, the economic factor will not deter them even if they have to pay a price. After it is done, they may have second thoughts, but that's another story...

It is like the Quebec separation movement. They lie and try to downplay the economic kick in the teeth they would take if they became a republic of their own. Now the latest idea is that they can have sovereignty association and have a pick and choose what part of Canadian society they want to agree with and of course, have that economic union. While the larger nation sits there and gives it to em? No....if Scotland separates, they will really not like the result. The English wont make it easy, nor should they. Scotland's identity, culture and place in the world isn't diminished by being part of the UK; no more than a Hawaiian's or Texans's cultural identity is hurt less by being a state in the US. Both were independent nations once upon a time.....

[Hondo]

Some kids go, and some of them end up on the street selling their body for drugs. So, sometimes pride of independence can trump economical security.

My answer to that is what I've been saying all along. Unless you are truly capable of being independent, don't push making the break. That doesn't mean you can't use the time to hone the skills you need to be truly independent. In a nutshell, don't bite the hand that feeds you unless you can provide the same.

[Hondo]

It is like the Quebec separation movement. They lie and try to downplay the economic kick in the teeth they would take if they became a republic of their own. Now the latest idea is that they can have sovereignty association and have a pick and choose what part of Canadian society they want to agree with and of course, have that economic union. While the larger nation sits there and gives it to em? No....if Scotland separates, they will really not like the result. The English wont make it easy, nor should they. Scotland's identity, culture and place in the world isn't diminished by being part of the UK; no more than a Hawaiian's or Texans's cultural identity is hurt less by being a state in the US. Both were independent nations once upon a time.....

Legally, Texas may still withdrawl from the United States and become an independent country again. Maybe Obama will bring that about.

[Rollo]

I've wondered about this for a while. If the decisions of the Supreme Court are binding on the states, then doesn't it mean that Texas can't leave the Union as a result of Texas vs White?

Texas vs White (1869)
"When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States.
- Justice Salmon P Chase.

There are vehicles of legislation for new states to enter the union, but there has never been a case tested for one to leave, except the Civil War which itself was deemed illegal.

The thing is that under English and Scottish convention (because no written constitutions exist), any Act including the Act of Union 1707 which binds the crowns of England and Scotland can be repealed.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't think Texas can leave either, but it joined the US as a sovereign state making its own decision and THAT is what Gov. Rick Perry was looking into....

I think you could line up lawyers who would argue with as much convinction pro or con, and in the case of Scotland and the UK, likely the same.

[Hondo]

That's ok. In the USA it's alright for one Supreme Court's decision to override a previous decision. What is written, is law. How any court chooses to interperate is based largely on the political whim of the court.

[DexDexter]

Nice to see such sophisticated reasoning. ;) You seem to have a lot in common with your prominent fellow countryman Ahtisaari, who designed the independence of Kosovo based on dictatorship and difference of identity factors despite complete nonviability of Kosovo in terms of economy and pretty much everything else.

So you're an avid reader of the Russian media. They (Russians) criticised Ahtisaari a lot simply because things didn't go as the Russians wanted in Kosovo.

[Rudy Tamasz]

So you're an avid reader of the Russian media. They (Russians) criticised Ahtisaari a lot simply because things didn't go as the Russians wanted in Kosovo.

I actually happen to be on good terms with some Kosovars. When I talked to them, as much as they are excited about the indepencence, their economic forecasts are pretty bleak. They have somehting like a 50 per cent unemployment there, a significant share of shadow (read: criminal) economy and investments. Many young Kosovars support themselves working for foreigners and serving 50 Euro lunches to international officials and military in Thai restaurants. When foreigners decide that its is time for Kosovo to walk it alone and pull the plug, those jobs will be gone. That is why ever more young Kosovars chose to migrate and then prefer to waive their independence flags and shout slogans from abroad, including Finland.

Still, there is no chance they will ever want to be a part of Serbia again.

[Schurke]

So your one of the 30 odd %? I'm pretty much the opposite on all of the abovei'm proud to be both British and Scottish but if some fool looking to become a big fish in a small pond from the SNP told me I had to pick; British would win out every time. We are far stronger as a union.

As I mentioned, I have nothing against being British, I don´t hate England or anyone for that matter. I just personally feel Scotland as a country could do better.
I don´t believe a government in London has Scotlands best interests at heart. Are the Olympics in 2012 a British Olympics ? Is the football world cup bid 2018 for Britain ? The millienium dome (something that was build for all in UK) was erected in London - easy access for us Scots ??

I´m not feeling hard done by, I just feel IF we are to be Great Britain, why is the wealth not shared a bit better. You can counter my above comments by saying, Scotland could not hold the Olympic games or the World Cup - agreed, but we could together with England and/or Wales, but it never comes into question.

Where do you live in Scotland ?
I´m from the West Coast and for the last 30 years I´ve seen a decline in everything about the place, the area, employment and the most upsetting of all - the people (if I´m allowed to say that).

I´ll put my hand up and admit I don´t have the answers to fix the problems. But I can listen to the people who believe they have the answers and use my vote to support those answers which I feel best address the problems, as can you.

It doesn´t have to be a SNP government in an independent Scotland.

[Mark]

But nobody is suggesting breaking the union of the Scottish and English crowns. The monarch would be the same, both sides of the border.

[Schurke]

Totally agree with you. I lived in Newcastle for a few years and people I spoke to there feel like there is a North / South divide.

I didn´t know that part of the Oylmpics will be built in Wales.

I don´t want to bring over the message of, let´s just give it a go and see how we get on.
I think if there is independence and as you mention, if it´s done properly, there are so many possibilities. People are thinking we would automatically have a SNP government. My understand is there would be new elections for the new government and I believe you would see different parties being formed and standing for election.
We could start with a clean slate, new rules for MP´s expenses and create a modern government.
Then over the years just watch that clean slate get dirty !!

[Hondo]

The distribution of tax money is one of those problems that come with being too big. Idealy, each region should take turns in getting a larger share of the tax dollars. To spread them egually would result in regions not having enough to do anything substantial. Ultimately, they will go to the politically powerful regions, all grumbling aside.

[Sonic]

As I mentioned, I have nothing against being British, I don´t hate England or anyone for that matter. I just personally feel Scotland as a country could do better.
I don´t believe a government in London has Scotlands best interests at heart. Are the Olympics in 2012 a British Olympics ? Is the football world cup bid 2018 for Britain ? The millienium dome (something that was build for all in UK) was erected in London - easy access for us Scots ??

I´m not feeling hard done by, I just feel IF we are to be Great Britain, why is the wealth not shared a bit better. You can counter my above comments by saying, Scotland could not hold the Olympic games or the World Cup - agreed, but we could together with England and/or Wales, but it never comes into question.

Where do you live in Scotland ?
I´m from the West Coast and for the last 30 years I´ve seen a decline in everything about the place, the area, employment and the most upsetting of all - the people (if I´m allowed to say that).

I´ll put my hand up and admit I don´t have the answers to fix the problems. But I can listen to the people who believe they have the answers and use my vote to support those answers which I feel best address the problems, as can you.

It doesn´t have to be a SNP government in an independent Scotland.

I hail from the M8 corridor (but actually now live in Kent) so I guess that explains a lot of why I have no desire to see the Union split up.

On the topic of major sporting events, whilst the clearly Scotland does noy have the funds to host the Olympics it has hosted the commonwealth games in '86 and we are lined up for Glasgow 2014 so we are not exactly starved of international sports.

Besides, whilst I enjoy a good bit of sport as much as the next person, it has very little to do with running a country on a day-to-day basis. I am far more interested in seeing some hard evidence from the SNP as to how they would fund things like the 2 billion pounds required for free uni places without UK funding, or the free perscriptions. These are the big questions, and I'm not hearing any answers, just a lot of hot air from the SNP.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I´m not feeling hard done by, I just feel IF we are to be Great Britain, why is the wealth not shared a bit better.




Such as Tuition fees for students? :rolleyes:

[Schurke]

Waiving the tuition fees for Scottish students is a great idea from the limited Scottish government, do you not agree ?

Why doesn´t Parliament follow our lead ?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Waiving the tuition fees for Scottish students is a great idea from the limited Scottish government, do you not agree ?

Why doesn´t Parliament follow our lead ?

As a student who will have over £12,000 of fees to pay back when I finish uni - No! I didn't think free fees are a good idea. I don't have to pay them back until I'm befitting from my degree in terms of salary, so I don't see that there is any problem with the system south of the border.

[Sonic]

Waiving the tuition fees for Scottish students is a great idea from the limited Scottish government, do you not agree ?

Why doesn´t Parliament follow our lead ?

A good idea? Perhaps, but that's another debate really. The sums for iindependance simply don't add up. Just on the one area of tuition fees, at the moment the 2 billion pounds required to waive tuition fees in Scotland is funded by tax from the entire UK. I can not see how, if Scotland became independant, a population of 5 million (not sure of the proportion paying tax) could possibly fund that kind of scheme. There are a great many examples of things Hollyrood would love to do - but can only do some thanks to UK funding.

The idea of Scotland as a fully independant nation, whilst romantic, provides no economic improvements and can only hurt the people.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Wow £12,000 in tuition fees!!
I was at Universtity from 2001 to 2004 and its was approx £1,200 per year, although I only had to pay £300 because my parents are divorced and they don't seem to ask any questions about step parents. Has it gone up considerably?

I hadn't realised Scotland get free tuition, but to be honest if the whole country offered this service, then they'd have to find the money from somewhere else anyway. Probably an extra £500 a year per person in tax, which wouldn't be fair on the people not benefitting IMO. :)

It's over £3,000 per for fees plus a few thousand per year for maintenance. TBH if i gave up everything in my life that i enjoy I could have paid my university fees on my own as I work part-time too. :)

[MrJan]

Wow £12,000 in tuition fees!!
I was at Universtity from 2001 to 2004 and its was approx £1,200 per year, although I only had to pay £300 because my parents are divorced and they don't seem to ask any questions about step parents. Has it gone up considerably?

I hadn't realised Scotland get free tuition, but to be honest if the whole country offered this service, then they'd have to find the money from somewhere else anyway. Probably an extra £500 a year per person in tax, which wouldn't be fair on the people not benefitting IMO. :)

I think it's all that top up bollocks. I paid about £1k a year on fees at Uni but it was all upfront.

[Sonic]

It's over £3,000 per for fees plus a few thousand per year for maintenance. TBH if i gave up everything in my life that i enjoy I could have paid my university fees on my own as I work part-time too. :)

Like beer?? ;)

Seriously though, that's three times the going rate from my time - 1999.

[Rollo]

I hadn't realised Scotland get free tuition, but to be honest if the whole country offered this service, then they'd have to find the money from somewhere else anyway. Probably an extra £500 a year per person in tax, which wouldn't be fair on the people not benefitting IMO. :)

If the whole country had free tuition fees, then wouldn't this encourage more people to go to university, and therefore produce a more highly skilled workforce, which in turn would produce better quality work, command higher wages and thereby pay more in tax because of it?

The obvious example of this is the Republic of Ireland. Apart from Student Services Fees (which is about €825), education in Ireland is free. Consequently it has resulted in quite a substantial IT Industry which has developed, and the highest quality of life in the world.
http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/QUALITY_OF_LIFE.pdf

[Sonic]

And Ireland is suffering even worse than most in the financial mess we are all in and have just published a slash and burn budget.

Besides the idea of everyone going off to Uni and thus we have a generation of brilliant minds is a touch romantic? There are simply too many graduates going for available posts as it is. Getting served my fries by a guy with a Phd seems a bit of a waste of all those funds/taxes.

[Mark]

If the whole country had free tuition fees, then wouldn't this encourage more people to go to university, and therefore produce a more highly skilled workforce, which in turn would produce better quality work, command higher wages and thereby pay more in tax because of it?


Quite. Back in the day this was indeed the reasoning, and the reason why students not only didn't have to pay tuition fees, but also received a grant to help them through.

Personally I got £1,400 per year to attend university - starting in 1996. Significantly less than my current monthly salary, but it was still a big help.

[Rollo]

And Ireland is suffering even worse than most in the financial mess we are all in and have just published a slash and burn budget.


Yes but Ireland's financial mess is located directly in the banking system and not connected to tutition rates. This is a non sequitur.

[Sonic]

Yes but Ireland's financial mess is located directly in the banking system and not connected to tutition rates. This is a non sequitur.

As are all countries financial woes. What I was suggesting is that it will be very hard for Ireland to continue to fund a very expensive scheme such as the free Uni places when crucial benefits are being cut, and on top of a general increase in taxation it could make funding higher education both unpopular and financialy impossible.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

If the whole country had free tuition fees, then wouldn't this encourage more people to go to university, and therefore produce a more highly skilled workforce, which in turn would produce better quality work, command higher wages and thereby pay more in tax because of it?



I graduate this summer and it is looking like there will be over 100 applicants per job. The last thing I want is more graduates (competition).

[Mark]

I graduate this summer and it is looking like there will be over 100 applicants per job. The last thing I want is more graduates (competition).

And it gets harder... As you get older companies only want people with very specific experience. If you're over 30 you can get jobs you've either done before, or very low paid ones, and not much inbetween.

Companies looking for new recruits to train up tend to go for people freshly graduated, rather than those already into their working life.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

And it gets harder... As you get older companies only want people with very specific experience. If you're over 30 you can get jobs you've either done before, or very low paid ones, and not much inbetween.

Companies looking for new recruits to train up tend to go for people freshly graduated, rather than those already into their working life.

Oh cock! :(

[DexDexter]

As a student who will have over £12,000 of fees to pay back when I finish uni - No! I didn't think free fees are a good idea. I don't have to pay them back until I'm befitting from my degree in terms of salary, so I don't see that there is any problem with the system south of the border.

Offtopic (and I don't want to brag) but could someone enlighten me why do you have those fees? My university education over here didn't cost a dime in fees (just the other expenses) since education is free here even at the highest level. Must be the taxes we pay?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Offtopic (and I don't want to brag) but could someone enlighten me why do you have those fees? My university education over here didn't cost a dime in fees (just the other expenses) since education is free here even at the highest level. Must be the taxes we pay?

It pays for the lecturers wages and for the universities research and facilities. The government subsidizes most of the cost per student (i think it's about £12000 per student). Some of the facilities at my university (UCLan) are breathtaking, especially some of the resources available in the library. I this is only a 'middle of the road' university.

[Mark]

It pays for the lecturers wages and for the universities research and facilities. The government subsidizes most of the cost per student (i think it's about £12000 per student). Some of the facilities at my university (UCLan) are breathtaking, especially some of the resources available in the library. I this is only a 'middle of the road' university.

The tuition fees go towards paying for the teaching staff, buildings, and support staff for them. They don't tend to go to pay for research staff, who tend to be funded through grants from research councils, who in turn get their money directly from the government.

This is why researchers are usually only on short term contracts, because a research council will give the university an amount of money for a particular task and once that's gone they will have to bid for more.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Free university isn't free really. The society that is paying for it pays for it through the tax system.

Canada has some of the highest numbers of University graduates per 1000 in the western world. I am one of them...and yet I am in a blue collar job. The dirty secret is trades and blue collar "professions" actually pay as well or better quite often. Making university so accessable anyone can go turns out to be creating a problem. Too many graduates that are unemployable for the job market.....

AS for Scotland's issues, they will have the illusion things are better under an independent regime, but it is more for the politicians to wield power they cant have now really that this is being done. the SNP wants more power.....just as the politicians in Quebec in my country want more power over their little piece of the pie....

[Rollo]

Free university isn't free really. The society that is paying for it pays for it through the tax system.

What the same people whom...


in turn would produce better quality work, command higher wages and thereby pay more in tax because of it?


Isn't that "user pays"... eventually?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Rollo, when you give an education at a university level away FREE, the students don't understand or appreciate the value of that education. People value what they have to work to achieve or afford a lot more.

The society that gives away a free university level education to anyone who wants it is paying more through its tax system obviously for something that is often not appreciated for what it is, and I think there should be a cost for tuition. No one gets into Oxford, Harvard or the Sorbonne for free. There is VALUE in that......

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I agree with Mark. Someone has to pay for the tuition fees somewhere in the system , whether it be fees or taxes. But why shouldn't it be the ones who benefit most from university education that pays for it? If you scrap tuition fees then it will be the poorer people who end up paying for it in increased taxes.


I don't have to pay it back until I can afford to, so where is the issue?

[Rollo]

Rollo, when you give an education at a university level away FREE, the students don't understand or appreciate the value of that education. People value what they have to work to achieve or afford a lot more.
It really doesn't matter what how students value their education. What does matter is how productive those people are as a result of that education.

Ireland went from being one of the poorest countries in the EU to being one of the richest per capita and it did this through a combination of taxation, investment and education policies.



The society that gives away a free university level education to anyone who wants it is paying more through its tax system obviously for something that is often not appreciated for what it is,

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_uni_top_500_percap-universities-top-500-per-capita

Words like "appreciate" don't hold any economic weight at all. Results have to be measurable; the "Celtic Tiger" didn't get there through Irish Luck.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It really doesn't matter what how students value their education. What does matter is how productive those people are as a result of that education.

Ireland went from being one of the poorest countries in the EU to being one of the richest per capita and it did this through a combination of taxation, investment and education policies.



http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_uni_top_500_percap-universities-top-500-per-capita

Words like "appreciate" don't hold any economic weight at all. Results have to be measurable; the "Celtic Tiger" didn't get there through Irish Luck.

I would suggest the Celtic Tiger got there not through giving away free university educations but rather through cutting corporate tax rates, eliminating government regulations that did nothing but slow down the process of starting up new industry, and joining the EC with an economic situation where wages were low.

Education is important, and I wont slag anyone aspiring to become more educated. That said, giving things away for free is just not something I think any society should be doing with anything of value. It isn't about things you measure, it is moral code and an ethic that teaches people that the most valuable things in your life should be things you work towards fiscally and with hard work. The native people of Canada can get a free education at a post secondary education anywhere in this country, yet the native's are still one of the groups with the lowest rates of post secondary education. They don't seem to want to take that step for reasons I have never completely understood. Does that mean I would take it away from them? I suppose charging them tuition at this point wouldn't change things, but the point is just because something is "free", doesn't mean people will value it.

No one forced those Irish to go to University, they did it because they saw opportunity with the changing economic climate in Ireland. They would have gotten those degrees if they had to pay 2000 dollars a year too. Even if you give grants to students and make the continuation of further tuition in the future based on grades, that is better than just saying to a student "here you go, walk in the door, spend 4 years at this university and we will give you that degree". The real world isn't that cut and dried, so why give people the illusion that it is?

BTW...lol..what does this have to do with the Scot's telling the UK they don't want to play no more?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

It really doesn't matter what how students value their education. What does matter is how productive those people are as a result of that education.

Ireland went from being one of the poorest countries in the EU to being one of the richest per capita and it did this through a combination of taxation, investment and education policies.



http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_uni_top_500_percap-universities-top-500-per-capita

Words like "appreciate" don't hold any economic weight at all. Results have to be measurable; the "Celtic Tiger" didn't get there through Irish Luck.

We already have a larger supply of graduates than what the economy can feed. I've heard that about a third of graduates are in un-skilled jobs, and the percentage of unemployed graduates is growing every year.

[Rollo]

No one forced those Irish to go to University, they did it because they saw opportunity with the changing economic climate in Ireland.

No-one forced them not to go either. In fact this rather supports the idea that it should be free.

Of the four factors of production, land is the least mobile, followed by labour, and then capital and enterprise; depending on which economic school you follow, the importance of then are different. A copper mine doesn't instantly (if at all) ever become a rubber plantation and likewise, it's difficult to turn an electrician into a legal clerk.


They would have gotten those degrees if they had to pay 2000 dollars a year too.

Would they? How about that section of the community who through their own fault of being born into a family that they can not afford to go to university, never do so. The value of their labour lost forever because there was a barrier to entry far outweighs the original cost of their tuition fees over the cost of their lifetime.

This couples nicely with this:

We already have a larger supply of graduates than what the economy can feed. I've heard that about a third of graduates are in un-skilled jobs, and the percentage of unemployed graduates is growing every year.

Do we? Please provide the economic data for 2018 which backs this up.

Ideally a potential workforce should be highly skilled and equally mobile, and not just for the short term of the economic cycle. When the economy picks up again, there will again be demand for those skills; university education by operation causes a time lag for those skills to be made available to the economy generally.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Would they? How about that section of the community who through their own fault of being born into a family that they can not afford to go to university, never do so. The value of their labour lost forever because there was a barrier to entry far outweighs the original cost of their tuition fees over the cost of their lifetime.

.

Why can't people afford to go to university? I don't understand how? I have loads of friends at university that come from poor families. The biggest reason students get into stupid amounts of dept is because they spend to much on activities not related to their studies, and because they are too lazy to get a job whilst they study.

You start repaying the student loan after you leave your course, get a job and are earning over £15,000 a year (in other words, the repayment is income-contingent).You repay 9% of everything earned above £15,000. So earn £16,000 and you'll repay £90 a year

In many ways it's more like a graduate tax than a debt; no-one chases you for repayments and the more you earn the quicker you repay.

Trying to claim that free university will help the poor is wrong, because it will just been that the poor end up paying more in taxes.

[Rollo]

Why can't people afford to go to university? I don't understand how? I have loads of friends at university that come from poor families. The biggest reason students get into stupid amounts of dept is because they spend to much on activities not related to their studies, and because they are too lazy to get a job whilst they study.

Well if that is the biggest reason that student get into debt, then this is entirely irrelevant then.

You still have said nothing of the people couldn't afford to go to university that you haven't met, why couldn't they afford to? Who knows? You don't understand, and refuse to do so.


Trying to claim that free university will help the poor is wrong, because it will just been that the poor end up paying more in taxes.

This idea doesn't logically work.
Poor people pay less in taxes through a progressive taxation system, not more. See previous post:

a more highly skilled workforce, which in turn would produce better quality work, command higher wages and thereby pay more in tax because of it?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I have never met any who didn't go to university because of the cost. The most common reason from my non-uni friends is that they didn't get the required A-levels or chose a career that didn't need an degree.

[Mark]

I agree with Mark. Someone has to pay for the tuition fees somewhere in the system , whether it be fees or taxes. But why shouldn't it be the ones who benefit most from university education that pays for it? If you scrap tuition fees then it will be the poorer people who end up paying for it in increased taxes.


I don't have to pay it back until I can afford to, so where is the issue?

But how far do you take that? I think everyone agrees that having an educated population is of great benefit to everyone, not just the learned person concerned. Where do you stop charging, do you charge for A-Levels now, GCSE's, primary school?!

[Rudy Tamasz]

I think everyone agrees that having an educated population is of great benefit to everyone, not just the learned person concerned.


I agree with a reservation only. In my country education is generally cheap and if you pass the entry tests well, you are entitled to a stipend. In fact, you are paid to study. I had that benefit and I should not complain, but what this system produces is tons of useless graduates who think they will progress up the social ladder with a degree. They end up being half-qualified assistants to economists and lawyers with a small salary. On the other hand, you cannot find a decent construction worker to help you do some renovation.

Free stuff breeds parasites.

[Eki]

I agree with a reservation only. In my country education is generally cheap and if you pass the entry tests well, you are entitled to a stipend. In fact, you are paid to study. I had that benefit and I should not complain, but what this system produces is tons of useless graduates who think they will progress up the social ladder with a degree. They end up being half-qualified assistants to economists and lawyers with a small salary. On the other hand, you cannot find a decent construction worker to help you do some renovation.

Free stuff breeds parasites.
Are you one of the parasites? Were you born with a silver spoon in your mouth, or did you progress up the social ladder with a degree?

[DexDexter]

I agree with a reservation only. In my country education is generally cheap and if you pass the entry tests well, you are entitled to a stipend. In fact, you are paid to study. I had that benefit and I should not complain, but what this system produces is tons of useless graduates who think they will progress up the social ladder with a degree. They end up being half-qualified assistants to economists and lawyers with a small salary. On the other hand, you cannot find a decent construction worker to help you do some renovation.

Free stuff breeds parasites.

I don't get it, what has free education got to do with lots of people having a university degree? Over here (in my field) about 15% of the applicants were accepted based on the entry test. The quality of the applicants stays good when only a small minority of applicants is accepted, based on skills, not money. It's the system that is at fault if there are too many graduates, IMO nothing to do with money.

[Eki]

I don't get it, what has free education got to do with lots of people having a university degree? Over here (in my field) about 15% of the applicants were accepted based on the entry test. The quality of the applicants stays good when only a small minority of applicants is accepted, based on skills, not money. It's the system that is at fault if there are too many graduates, IMO nothing to do with money.
Exactly. Then no one can pay their way through university if they aren't qualified.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Are you one of the parasites? Were you born with a silver spoon in your mouth, or did you progress up the social ladder with a degree?

Yes, I'm a mean, vicious parasite and I'm outta get ya! :devil:

Honestly, though, I was on the way to become one. I missed quite a bit of classes just hanging out with friends and did not value my studies much. Professors felt that attitude from us and did not try too hard to educate us, either. I wouldn't have been much of a professional if I had taken that attitude to my professional career.

Luckily, I applied for a Master's program with an international uni and that was a totally different experience. Getting in was tough and getting out with a degree was even tougher. I did not have to pay but the requirements were very high. They squeezed all juices out of me, but it paid off.

My conclusion is, people need education, but to be efficient education must not be easily accessible. It should be free for the most gifted, the rest must pay hefty amount. Otherwise you'll get something like in Turkey, wher PhDs serve tourists in shops and bars, or Palestinian autonomy, where graduates throw rocks in the streets.

[Eki]

My conclusion is, people need education, but to be efficient education must not be easily accessible. It should be free for the most gifted, the rest must pay hefty amount.
It should be free for the most gifted. Period. The rest shouldn't be able to wiggle their way in even with money, otherwise it'll be like the US and there will be rich dumb graduates like George W Bush. People being able to pay their way in or out only leads to trouble. I once read that the Russian military has shortage of suitable officer candidates, since those in university don't have to do military service and those with money can bribe their way out. That has lead to a situation where mostly the dumb and poor do military service in Russia these days.

[Rudy Tamasz]

It should be free for the most gifted. Period. The rest shouldn't be able to wiggle their way in even with money

Would be great in an ideal world. In the real world if you don't have rich boys with money at unis, who pays for the education of the gifted? Don't tell me it should be the gov't spending taxpayers' money. Having the gov't throw money at it is the worst solution to any issue.

[Eki]

Would be great in an ideal world. In the real world if you don't have rich boys with money at unis, who pays for the education of the gifted? Don't tell me it should be the gov't spending taxpayers' money. Having the gov't throw money at it is the worst solution to any issue.
That's how it's done here, and it seems to work. In some fields, for example in engineering and economics, private companies and trust funds also throw money at research projects and thesis work.

[Sonic]

See now that's what I love about this place! A thread about Scottish independance can become a debate about tuition fees and then higher education in general. :p

[Mark in Oshawa]

Would be great in an ideal world. In the real world if you don't have rich boys with money at unis, who pays for the education of the gifted? Don't tell me it should be the gov't spending taxpayers' money. Having the gov't throw money at it is the worst solution to any issue.

Rudy, he should live where you are. It is obvious Eki is jealous of money and he sure as heck will dump on Capitalism. You, not taking it for granted seem to know instintictely socialism in extremes is harmful, and even temperate forms of socialism usually are more of a drag on society than a help.

Eki, George W. Bush Got those degrees because he sat in the classes and wrote the exams. Dad paid for the tuition, but he got the degree's on his own. Yale and Harvard do NOT take money to give out degree's not earned. I know your Bush Derangment syndrome is so over powering you cant grasp that...but it still is the truth.

[Hondo]

I don't see the problem with paying your own way through a college or university degree. Over here, it's usually paid for by the kid's parents who started saving a little money each month for their kid's college education almost as soon as the little rascal slides out of the oven. Now, if your parents bred like rabbits or drank like fishes, or just blew all their money on "stuff", thats not the taxpayer's problem. It's yours. If you have a burning desire for further education, you can save some money from a part-time job. There are scholarships and grants available for assistance along with government school loans. The military has great education programs available on basic enlistments. Perish the thought, but you can even get a job and pay for it yourself. How bad do you want it? What are you willing to invest? Quite a few companies, including the "evil" KBR and Haliburton will pay for your continuing education as long as you pass the course.

If you want to see a college class clicking along, getting things done with a minimum of BS and juvenile antics, go to a night class where the students worked all day to pay for their education. Those are some serious students. Been there, done it.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't see the problem with paying your own way through a college or university degree. Over here, it's usually paid for by the kid's parents who started saving a little money each month for their kid's college education almost as soon as the little rascal slides out of the oven. Now, if your parents bred like rabbits or drank like fishes, or just blew all their money on "stuff", thats not the taxpayer's problem. It's yours. If you have a burning desire for further education, you can save some money from a part-time job. There are scholarships and grants available for assistance along with government school loans. The military has great education programs available on basic enlistments. Perish the thought, but you can even get a job and pay for it yourself. How bad do you want it? What are you willing to invest? Quite a few companies, including the "evil" KBR and Haliburton will pay for your continuing education as long as you pass the course.

If you want to see a college class clicking along, getting things done with a minimum of BS and juvenile antics, go to a night class where the students worked all day to pay for their education. Those are some serious students. Been there, done it.

sssh!!! Don't you know it should be free? A society with access to a post secondary education is a good thing, but it isn't free. The other issue is of course is trades are looked down upon, but the last time I looked a plumber was still required, as are electricians, mechanics, carpenters and bricklayers, yet any society so fixated on higher education will often have shortages of the people who actually make things happen phyically.

[Hondo]

If you do it on grants and scholarships, it's free or close to it.

It's not an automatic "gimme" and it is expensive, but the opportunities are there for you to earn your degree if you are willing to invest "sweat equity" and are willing to earn one.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Fiero, here Grants are only given to those who have good marks ( they earn those) and need the dough (poor parents). The rest of us can apply for loans and they are given out based on marks and yes, need too. I do know at no point in applying for any of this are you feeling you are not going to earn that education. I never had a sniff at a grant and I appreciate that.

[Eki]

I don't see the problem with paying your own way through a college or university degree. Over here, it's usually paid for by the kid's parents who started saving a little money each month for their kid's college education almost as soon as the little rascal slides out of the oven. Now, if your parents bred like rabbits or drank like fishes, or just blew all their money on "stuff", thats not the taxpayer's problem.
You seem to think that everything is your own fault. What if they didn't have money to blow on "stuff" but everything goes to stuff like food and housing?There are people who have low-paid jobs or no job at all, you know. What if the other parent dies and the other one has to bring up the little rascal on his/her own? There's one less "bread winner" in the family. Whose fault is that? Even if the parents blew their money on drugs and booze and bred like rabbits, it's not the kid's fault is it? Why does the kid have to suffer for what his parents have or haven't done?

[Eki]

sssh!!! Don't you know it should be free? A society with access to a post secondary education is a good thing, but it isn't free. The other issue is of course is trades are looked down upon, but the last time I looked a plumber was still required, as are electricians, mechanics, carpenters and bricklayers, yet any society so fixated on higher education will often have shortages of the people who actually make things happen phyically.
That's why there are limits on how many are accepted into universities. The rest have to find something else to do, like become electricians, carpenters and bricklayers.

[Mark in Oshawa]

That's why there are limits on how many are accepted into universities. The rest have to find something else to do, like become electricians, carpenters and bricklayers.

Well it was advocated earlier that the doors should be thrown open. I agree with you on this one. Getting into University should be a tough process just based on merit, and then the cost of going should be earned at least in part by the student. As I said about 40 posts back (forget where there) you appreciate it more when you earn it.

[DexDexter]

Well it was advocated earlier that the doors should be thrown open. I agree with you on this one. Getting into University should be a tough process just based on merit, and then the cost of going should be earned at least in part by the student. As I said about 40 posts back (forget where there) you appreciate it more when you earn it.

It would be interesting to know what countries besides Finland have a university system where you cannot pay your way into a university. How's the situation in Canada? Is it like the US?

I told earlier that we have free education but of course it's not (like someone pointed out), it's just that the money is taken from all the taxpayers and individuals don't have to pay separate fees. And it seems that people over here are totally ok with it.

[Rudy Tamasz]

You seem to think that everything is your own fault. What if they didn't have money to blow on "stuff" but everything goes to stuff like food and housing?There are people who have low-paid jobs or no job at all, you know. What if the other parent dies and the other one has to bring up the little rascal on his/her own? There's one less "bread winner" in the family. Whose fault is that? Even if the parents blew their money on drugs and booze and bred like rabbits, it's not the kid's fault is it? Why does the kid have to suffer for what his parents have or haven't done?

Eki, I'm sorry to explain that to a grown-up person, but that's the way this world is. When little rascals come to this world, some start from the pole, some have to make it from behind. From that moment on it is the matter of personal responsibility. It is not up to us to choose in what situation we are born but it is up to us how to live our lives. Some fare better, some fare worse, even in egalitarian societies like Finland. You can even come up with a more radical decision, take every born child away from his parents to a state run institution where everybody gets an equal share of toys, food and education. Even then, I am sure, the results would be uneven, to say the least.

Eki, have you tried to lobby your government to abolish that Newton's law of universal gravitation, which is way too tough and unfair on disadvataged populations?

[Eki]

You can even come up with a more radical decision, take every born child away from his parents to a state run institution where everybody gets an equal share of toys, food and education. Even then, I am sure, the results would be uneven, to say the least.

Of course, but at least you have given everyone an equal chance. I have no problem with gravity if everyone are dropped from the same height and everyone or no one are given a parachute.

[Hondo]

You seem to think that everything is your own fault. What if they didn't have money to blow on "stuff" but everything goes to stuff like food and housing?There are people who have low-paid jobs or no job at all, you know. What if the other parent dies and the other one has to bring up the little rascal on his/her own? There's one less "bread winner" in the family. Whose fault is that? Even if the parents blew their money on drugs and booade and bred like rabbits, it's not the kid's fault is it? Why does the kid have to suffer for what his parents have or haven't done?

I don't see how the kid is suffering. In this country, if a kid has the basic smarts for the entrance exams or meets the entrance criteria, he has the opportunity to further his education. It's not a giveaway, but the opportunity is there if they are willing to work for it.

My Dad earned both of his degrees via the Navy Reserve and part time jobs. He started college funds for my older sister and I. My sister went out of state and pretty much partied for 2 years on Dad's money until finally flunking out. Those were some memorable phone calls. Not being sure of exactly what I wanted to do for a living and well aware of what kind of microscope the parental college funds would be under, I told my dad that if and when I decided to further my education, I'd pay for it myself.

When I was in my 30s, I got a phone call from Mom and Dad at 2:30am in the morning. They were relocating to California and had found their dream house. Problem was that they had to move on the house but hadn't sold the house in Houston yet. They wanted to know if it would be alright to use my college fund money on the down payment. Although I already had a degree through me and KBR, they had still left the fund intact. It felt good to tell them it was, and always had been their money, and they were free to do what they wanted to do with it.

Eki, when I was being raised, this country was not about getting a free ride at anybody's expense. It was about the vast opportunities this country has to offer if one is willing to apply himself and work for what they want. To a large extent, it's still about opportunity and doing for yourself.

[Eki]

I don't see how the kid is suffering. In this country, if a kid has the basic smarts for the entrance exams or meets the entrance criteria, he has the opportunity to further his education. It's not a giveaway, but the opportunity is there if they are willing to work for it.

Yes, but the effort is much harder than for an equally smart rich kid.




My Dad earned both of his degrees via the Navy Reserve and part time jobs. He started college funds for my older sister and I. My sister went out of state and pretty much partied for 2 years on Dad's money until finally flunking out. Those were some memorable phone calls. Not being sure of exactly what I wanted to do for a living and well aware of what kind of microscope the parental college funds would be under, I told my dad that if and when I decided to further my education, I'd pay for it myself.

My grandfather's father didn't have a chance to go to any school and couldn't even write. He had to work since he was a kid just to stay alive. In 1918 he picked up a gun in hope to make it a little easier for the future generations.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

You seem to think that everything is your own fault. What if they didn't have money to blow on "stuff" but everything goes to stuff like food and housing?There are people who have low-paid jobs or no job at all, you know. What if the other parent dies and the other one has to bring up the little rascal on his/her own? There's one less "bread winner" in the family. Whose fault is that? Even if the parents blew their money on drugs and booze and bred like rabbits, it's not the kid's fault is it? Why does the kid have to suffer for what his parents have or haven't done?

I don't see it like this in the UK.

* A student loan is available for everyone.
* You pay the loan back when you can afford it.
* Extra funding is available for those with poorer parents.
* Extra funding is available for students who perform well
* If you don't do well enough at school you wont get a place in university.

If people actually read the Student Loan company website then they would see that everyone can afford university.

[Eki]

I don't see it like this in the UK.

* A student loan is available for everyone.

Same here, but the possible loan goes to living (food, housing, etc.) not to tuition fees, because there aren't any. However, many prefer not to take a loan and work instead while in university, that may however delay their graduation. It has taken over ten years to graduate for some, but I think they have changed the rules now so that your grades and credits go obsolete after 10 years.


* You pay the loan back when you can afford it.
Same here.


* Extra funding is available for those with poorer parents.

Not here. Everyone gets the same.


* Extra funding is available for students who perform well

Not here, except grants from university or private trust funds, but not from the government.



* If you don't do well enough at school you wont get a place in university.

Same here.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Same here, but the possible loan goes to living (food, housing, etc.) not to tuition fees, because there aren't any. However, many prefer not to take a loan and work instead while in university, that may however delay their graduation. It has taken over ten years to graduate for some, but I think they have changed the rules now so that your grades and credits go obsolete after 10 years.



Extra maintenance grants are available for those living away from home, more if you live somewhere expensive like London. I don't think these have to be paid back.

But working part-time as a graduate shouldn't make your degree take any longer. It is normal to only have about 8hours of class time in university, then a recommended two hours extra study per hour you have in class. 24 hours of studying a week doesn't take up all of your week. Doing an extra 20hours a week part-time work isn't going to over-stress anyone.

[Rudy Tamasz]

My grandfather's father didn't have a chance to go to any school and couldn't even write. He had to work since he was a kid just to stay alive. In 1918 he picked up a gun in hope to make it a little easier for the future generations.

He was fighting on the communist side, wasn't he?

[Rudy Tamasz]

When I was in my 30s, I got a phone call from Mom and Dad at 2:30am in the morning. They were relocating to California and had found their dream house. Problem was that they had to move on the house but hadn't sold the house in Houston yet. They wanted to know if it would be alright to use my college fund money on the down payment. Although I already had a degree through me and KBR, they had still left the fund intact. It felt good to tell them it was, and always had been their money, and they were free to do what they wanted to do with it.

That's what I call integrity.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well here, there are grants and loans from the provincial gov'ts for assistance if you are going to University in the province you are applying for a loan from. IT is hard to get those grants, and the loans rarely cover all the expenses. Usually just tuition. Of course, if you are smart, you can get scholorships, but you have to apply for those. People don't come and draft you out of high school, you have to go get them.

That said, a University level education is within reach of anyone willing to work for it. The less you have, the more options open up but it is never going to be easy. The Canadian population has more degree's than most nations; and it is to our detriment almost. Many of us with post secondary education couldn't get the jobs we wanted. Cannot count the number of people with degrees who like me are working in blue collar professions because the jobs eitehr are not there, or don't pay well enough for the time and effort.

Life is basically not fair, and you work for everything you get. Adopt that mantra, and you will be better off than expecting the gov't to hand it to you. Fiero, I commend your attitude, it is one I would share for sure.

[Daniel]

I also commend Fiero's attitude as well :up:

When I was at university I worked to pay for the things I was doing alongside university. I find the attitude in the UK that someone else should fund your life whilst you're studying to be a bit weird :crazy:

People should look at university with the following attitude, will the money I'm spending on this course pay me back? Will it pay me back quick enough? I was doing an aviation course back in 2001 and the costs were just looking too much for me and I quit because I didn't think I was going to get a good return on what was going to be a very big investment for me. I then went on to start an IT degree but TBH I wish I hadn't and I wish I'd just gone out into the workforce and gained experience as I've done but at an earlier age. I never felt the learning environment at university was for me anyway.

[Eki]

He was fighting on the communist side, wasn't he?
He was a company commander in the Red Guard, but I don't think they called them communists back then. The communist party of Finland was founded after the war by Reds who managed to escape to Russia. My grandfather's father was heading to Russia too, but he got caught by the Germans before he got there. I think the Reds were the radical wing of the Social Democratic Party or actually local workers' unions.

[Mark in Oshawa]

He was a company commander in the Red Guard, but I don't think they called them communists back then. The communist party of Finland was founded after the war by Reds who managed to escape to Russia. My grandfather's father was heading to Russia too, but he got caught by the Germans before he got there. I think the Reds were the radical wing of the Social Democratic Party or actually local workers' unions.

So you come by your socialist notions honestly then?

[DexDexter]

He was a company commander in the Red Guard, but I don't think they called them communists back then. The communist party of Finland was founded after the war by Reds who managed to escape to Russia. My grandfather's father was heading to Russia too, but he got caught by the Germans before he got there. I think the Reds were the radical wing of the Social Democratic Party or actually local workers' unions.

My grandfather on the other hand was part of the White Guard and he actually fought in Estonia's independence war as well (He was really old when I was born). He was a farmer, a very poor one, but they usually fought on the Whites side. As you know it was not about politics in reality, it was about the terrible living conditions of the working classes at that time. A sad part of Finnish history.

[Eki]

So you come by your socialist notions honestly then?
Sometimes. At least I know and understand where they came from and why.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Sometimes. At least I know and understand where they came from and why.

Fair enough.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Sometimes. At least I know and understand where they came from and why.

I understand where I come from and why too Eki. My grandfather was an ardent supporter of Canada's first Socialist party, the CCF. Never had two nickels to rub together, ran his own barber shop, but he thought if they ever got power, good times would ensue. My father voted for years for their successor, the NDP. IT's leader was the MP from Oshawa riding and my dad went to school with him. Yet, I am a right of center kind of guy. Why? I have yet to see where socialism has really worked as a model for a democracy. Some socialistic ideas such as universal medicare and the like are good ideas on paper, but rarely work really well in reality. Canada probably made universal healthcare work as well as it could, but in the last 20 year it is failing on a lot of levels.....

No...I get the notion of why people are attracted to socialism, but I have yet to see it actually benefit those who actually want to work and move up. It doesn't work for business as a rule, and last time I looked, most of us still worked in the private sector. What is more, if the gov't employing everyone was a such a great idea, then the USSR would still be kicking.

now...tying this back into the thread, I believe most indenpendence movements, such as the Scottish Nationlists are often socialists using the veil of independence to try to gain power on THAT rather than their worn out dogma...In Quebec, I can tell you that is the MO of the Parti Quebecois. They have'nt left yet, but Quebec is the most over taxed, over governed, socialistic left leaning jursidiction in North America (ok..maybe California is with it). Quebec is also broke, has never been a contributing province for inter provincial transfers ( a have not province), and has lousy infrastructure, crumbling roads, and corruption. But they still feel it is all Canada's fault.

Scots, look to Quebec...and then think long and hard about that Scottish Nationalist party....and toss it away.

[Eki]

No...I get the notion of why people are attracted to socialism, but I have yet to see it actually benefit those who actually want to work and move up. It doesn't work for business as a rule, and last time I looked, most of us still worked in the private sector.
Yes, but at least here the private sector don't make 10 year old kids work 12 hours a day 6 days a week for a dime anymore, thanks to socialism. And some slime ball boss can't anymore randomly fire you for some whim just because he can or because he doesn't like your face or your opinions, not even in the private sector, thanks to socialism.

Working in the private sector is OK, I do that too, as long as you get a fair share of the profits and be treated like a human being.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Yes, but at least here the private sector don't make 10 year old kids work 12 hours a day 6 days a week for a dime anymore, thanks to socialism. And some slime ball boss can't anymore randomly fire you for some whim just because he can or because he doesn't like your face or your opinions, not even in the private sector, thanks to socialism.

Working in the private sector is OK, I do that too, as long as you get a fair share of the profits and be treated like a human being.

Eki. First off Socialism isn't protecting kids from child labour. That is just good government. The US has laws against putting kids at 10 in the work place. Hardly a socialist nation.

Labour laws and the rights of workers exist in any civilized nation. You don't need to have socialized everything out the wazoo to get that.

AS for SHARE of the profits? SHARE??? No Eki, you want to share in the profits, buy stock. If the owners is nice, maybe he has profit sharing. Workers are offered a job. If the job doesn't pay what the guy down the street is paying, the employer doesn't get the best employees and pays a price. You pay peanuts, you get monkey's.

My boss didn't figure that out......and I told him as much today.. Still doesn't mean I need the Government to regulate the heck out of everything in the workplace.

[Eki]

Eki. First off Socialism isn't protecting kids from child labour. That is just good government. The US has laws against putting kids at 10 in the work place. Hardly a socialist nation.

Thank's to socialism anyway. Finland is hardly a socialist nation but the socialists have manage to include some of their ideas to use here, just like in the US, which is not a purely capitalist country either anymore. By the way, isn't a "good government" a socialist thing? Cut throat capitalists don't want any government intervention at all.



Labour laws and the rights of workers exist in any civilized nation. You don't need to have socialized everything out the wazoo to get that.
I wasn't talking about socializing everything. You don't have to have it either this way or that way, you can compromise and have something in between, you know.



AS for SHARE of the profits? SHARE??? No Eki, you want to share in the profits, buy stock. If the owners is nice, maybe he has profit sharing. Workers are offered a job. If the job doesn't pay what the guy down the street is paying, the employer doesn't get the best employees and pays a price. You pay peanuts, you get monkey's..
OK. Profit was a wrong word, maybe income is better. If the worker gets only 1% of what his labour is worth and the employer gets 99%, I don't think it's right. If the guy down the road pays peanuts too, the worker doesn't have a choice, monkey or not.



My boss didn't figure that out......and I told him as much today.. Still doesn't mean I need the Government to regulate the heck out of everything in the workplace.
Good for you. In the old world cut throat capitalism you'd probably be looking for a new job, maybe new home too, if your employer owned your home, hungry and cold, since there were no unemployment benefits.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Eki, I am a big believer in balance. I don't see government regulation and government services as a solution to all problems, but at the same time, they need to exist. So the real question is what is just good government, and what is socialism? Tony's view of it is different than yours, and I am obviously in the middle.

You paint all capitalists as bad people. I don't see it that way. Often they lose sight of what is important to their employees ( my boss anyhow) but that doesn't make them a criminal or a bad person always either. There are people in the company hierarchy that I had time for. It is like anything where you have people. Some are good, some are bad. Many companies run by progressive and wise management can be great places to work, and many are in the private sector. They understand that you must pay for good people and keep them and that makes the company stronger.

Governments role should be to protect the VERY weakest in society, and provide a level playing field for private industry. It is the private sector that grows the wealth, grows the economy, and has the most productive workers. This has been proven over and over again. So to knock capitalism and the private sector is like picking on all people in Iraq, because Saddam was a miserable sadistic thug. You have good people in society that run companies, and you have bad ones.

Balance....If I was creating a political movement, I think I would name it that.

[Eki]

Eki, I am a big believer in balance.

So am I.


You paint all capitalists as bad people. I don't see it that way.
I paint SOME of them greedy, not bad.


Often they lose sight of what is important to their employees ( my boss anyhow) but that doesn't make them a criminal or a bad person always either. There are people in the company hierarchy that I had time for. It is like anything where you have people. Some are good, some are bad. Many companies run by progressive and wise management can be great places to work, and many are in the private sector. They understand that you must pay for good people and keep them and that makes the company stronger.

Governments role should be to protect the VERY weakest in society, and provide a level playing field for private industry. It is the private sector that grows the wealth, grows the economy, and has the most productive workers. This has been proven over and over again. So to knock capitalism and the private sector is like picking on all people in Iraq, because Saddam was a miserable sadistic thug. You have good people in society that run companies, and you have bad ones.

That's where we agree, but I don't call that capitalism. I call it a mix of capitalism and socialism.

[Mark in Oshawa]

So am I.


I paint SOME of them greedy, not bad.


That's where we agree, but I don't call that capitalism. I call it a mix of capitalism and socialism.

It is capitalism. You live in a capitalist system Eki. It has socialism mixed into the broth, and in the Scandinavian nations there is a bit more socialism tolerated in the society and it is governed than say in the US, but it still is a capitalist society. The Private sector pushes the economy forward, and provides jobs for the majority. Any time you interfere or apply regulations to that sector, it has to be done very carefully and with some thought to its effects. Most politicians, especially those on the left of center keep writing laws that effect this sector without any thought other than THEIR concerns. The problem with this is capital is fluid. You try to take too much in taxes or through tariff's, companies go elsewhere. They owe a return to stockholders and owners first rather than to the government. Unfortunately, some companies are a little too eager to leave for places like China and the like, but taxing corportations more because of this wont solve the problem either.

Outsourcing is ugly and understandable from a dollar's and cents point of view, but I don't know what the solution is.

[Mark]

I think the idea of Scottish independence will come into further focus should David Cameron become Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

As the SNP don't tire of saying, the Conservative party only gained 17% of the vote in Scotland and returned a single Tory MP. And yet a Conservative government would be in charge of Scotland too.

[Sonic]

I think the idea of Scottish independence will come into further focus should David Cameron become Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

As the SNP don't tire of saying, the Conservative party only gained 17% of the vote in Scotland and returned a single Tory MP. And yet a Conservative government would be in charge of Scotland too.

I was thinking about this the other day. A poll before the election suggested a majority didn't want independance, however when the question was reworded to read something along the lines of;

"Would you support independance if a conservative government was elected to westminster?"

When posed with that question the vote became a great deal closer.

Also, the SNP are needed for any Lib/Lab alliance to work, so perhaps they ca demand a referendum to side with the "progressive alliance". Ironically, whilst they have the best shot at getting that vote with Labour they are least likely to win in those circumstances.

Whatevebehind the scene deals are struck I am still firmly against the ideed of a split in the UK.

[Cooper_S]

As the SNP make up less than 2% of the UK electorate it is futile to pursue any aspirations of a referendum on Scottish independence, Even in the Scottish Parliament their support rises to just under 20% of the Scottish electorate it is unlikely to get support.

It is a dream for another day as far a Scottish Independence Referendum is concerned.

[Mark in Oshawa]

As the SNP make up less than 2% of the UK electorate it is futile to pursue any aspirations of a referendum on Scottish independence, Even in the Scottish Parliament their support rises to just under 20% of the Scottish electorate it is unlikely to get support.

It is a dream for another day as far a Scottish Independence Referendum is concerned.

Scottish independence? Just as silly an idea as Quebec's constant whining for independence is. Last Time I looked, if the Scots didn't want a Tory gov't, they didn't have to vote for one, but I also note that in some places, you don't always get the government you vote for. That's life......who told anyone it is fair?

[fandango]

Scottish independence? Just as silly an idea as Quebec's constant whining for independence is. Last Time I looked, if the Scots didn't want a Tory gov't, they didn't have to vote for one, but I also note that in some places, you don't always get the government you vote for. That's life......who told anyone it is fair?

In the context of the EU it's not so silly, but I'm inclined to agree about the whining. It's a similar thing here in Catalunya. What they need to do is stop paying their taxes to the central government, that's what will move the thing one way or another. But some politicians make their space whining about a situation they secretly don't really want to change.

[Mark in Oshawa]

In the context of the EU it's not so silly, but I'm inclined to agree about the whining. It's a similar thing here in Catalunya. What they need to do is stop paying their taxes to the central government, that's what will move the thing one way or another. But some politicians make their space whining about a situation they secretly don't really want to change.

Minority regions within the larger nation can always hold a refrendum...but the fact is, they usually lose...and then the whining starts all over. I am 45 in two weeks, and in my 45 years, I have grown up with the spectre of Quebec wanting to leave my nation. They have voted twice to stay in, and the people wanting to tear the nation in two both times lied to their supporters on what they were voting for, and wrote questions so convoluted that any justification for sovereignty could be made...

It is just a joke...these oppressed minorities just want more money and more attention for their part of the country....

[Cooper_S]

Scottish independence? Just as silly an idea as Quebec's constant whining for independence is. Last Time I looked, if the Scots didn't want a Tory gov't, they didn't have to vote for one, but I also note that in some places, you don't always get the government you vote for. That's life......who told anyone it is fair?

That is fine... for you.. but people will and do get fed up with things that are unfair and that is when people, like you, get a sharp wake up... and people resort to other means to get by force if necessary a fairer system.

IRA, ETA, Basque... these all came about not because people were fair to each other... and those happy with the unfair state of things suffer in the end (some it would seem deservedly so)

The North of Ireland had been dragged into a fairer system and it was bloody along the way... but change is happening.

[Mark in Oshawa]

That is fine... for you.. but people will and do get fed up with things that are unfair and that is when people, like you, get a sharp wake up... and people resort to other means to get by force if necessary a fairer system.

IRA, ETA, Basque... these all came about not because people were fair to each other... and those happy with the unfair state of things suffer in the end (some it would seem deservedly so)

The North of Ireland had been dragged into a fairer system and it was bloody along the way... but change is happening.

First off, excusing the actions of the IRA, ETA or any other terrorist group based on "what isn't fair" is a very slippery game. IN the case of the IRA, I understand maybe their grievances historically a little better since my ancestors are from Ulster and were Protestant. I get what the goals of the IRA were about, and I don't condone their actions at all, but I understand where it comes from. Still doesn't excuse it.

Most of the separtist groups can justify something that is reasonable, but I don't have a problem with them being the squeaky wheel when they are not advocating terror tactics. Quebec, like Scotland, is a minority with a different culture from the majority, and like Scotland, has a separation movement afoot. Like Quebec, the Scots who want sovereignty don't have that 50% of the nation behind them. They haven't now, and they didn't 10 years ago, and wont likely have it 20 years from now. What is more, the nation they want to create often would be so dependent upon the nation they just left, that really this just boils down to an extortion scheme.

I don't think there is any one who wants separatism in Scotland that is advocating what the IRA or ETA did...or even the mickey mouse Terrorist operation like FLQ in Canada did. Terrorist tactics to advocate the birth of a new nation out of a functioning democracy is just stupid and counterproductive...

[Cooper_S]

I don't see a Scottish IRA in the future either, as you say the conditions and history that laid down the conditions for such a paramilitary force attracting a sizable support was unique to Ireland,

Scotland today is nothing like Ulster of the 1960's, there is no job or housing discrimination based on religion of a minority etc. The ironic thing was there was no desire for separation from the UK only equal rights within it.

The Scots enjoy full equal rights within the UK and is the main reason why support is low. The same is true of French Canadians, they may want to separate out of some sense of identity but that alone is not enough.

[fandango]

Minority regions within the larger nation can always hold a refrendum...

In the case of Spain that is not true. The Spanish constitution prevents any referendum on independence being held. It's illegal to even ask the question. It also mentions that it's the duty of the army to maintain the unity of Spain from any threat. A potent mix, justification for a lot of unwholesome politics.


What is more, the nation they want to create often would be so dependent upon the nation they just left...

I don't think that's the case with Catalunya, and possibly the Basque Country too. The Catalans pay more into Spain than they get out, as far as I know. Another interesting thing is that the Catalans are peaceful and pragmatic. People don't know so much about Catalan aspirations for independence because they don't blow s**t up. That's not an excuse or justification for anything, just a fact.

So Scotland becoming independent would have big, big repercussions in Madrid....

[Rudy Tamasz]

I don't see a Scottish IRA in the future either, as you say the conditions and history that laid down the conditions for such a paramilitary force attracting a sizable support was unique to Ireland,

Scotland today is nothing like Ulster of the 1960's, there is no job or housing discrimination based on religion of a minority etc. The ironic thing was there was no desire for separation from the UK only equal rights within it.

The Scots enjoy full equal rights within the UK and is the main reason why support is low. The same is true of French Canadians, they may want to separate out of some sense of identity but that alone is not enough.

Is it like the whole nation in the state of mid-life crisis? 40 year old guys buy a new car and pick a new chick. Nations want a new identity and show off a new parliament.

[Mark in Oshawa]

In the case of Spain that is not true. The Spanish constitution prevents any referendum on independence being held. It's illegal to even ask the question. It also mentions that it's the duty of the army to maintain the unity of Spain from any threat. A potent mix, justification for a lot of unwholesome politics.

Well, the mandarins in Madrid probably don't want the Basque's taking that ball and running with it, and while I see their goal, I think if it is THAT bad a situation between Madrid and the Basques, maybe cutting them loose is an option? I don't know enough about the grievences to know if it is justified BUT to just outlaw the question is rather anti-democratic. Lord knows we in Canada are so tired of the neverending trip to the dentist that is Quebec and its' issues but we don't outlaw the movement as long as it is peaceful. The fact that the "majority" does this I thinks says to the people of Quebec that we are tolerant of them.




I don't think that's the case with Catalunya, and possibly the Basque Country too. The Catalans pay more into Spain than they get out, as far as I know. Another interesting thing is that the Catalans are peaceful and pragmatic. People don't know so much about Catalan aspirations for independence because they don't blow s**t up. That's not an excuse or justification for anything, just a fact.

So Scotland becoming independent would have big, big repercussions in Madrid....

Catlan's I don't think have made up their mind entirely. If they did, I suspect Madrid would not be able to keep a lid on it. Like you say though, they realize they should be rational...and I do think over time, they don't mind being part of Spain enough to waste the time and energy TO separate. They feel confident in their identity I suspect.

Scotland becoming its own nation completely outside the UK would have repecucssions across the world where you have many nations with two potential states or more within the borders.

I do know it wouldn't help us with the Quebec Separtists, who unlike the Catalans, are a sponge for money from Ottawa.

[Mark]

It's difficult for any nation. Personally I think any part of any country should be able to break away if they so desire. However, you have to guard against short termism. After all if Scotland were to become independent it would be permanent. For them to break away just because they don't like the particular flavour of government in Westminster or as a protest against spending cuts would be a mistake.

[Iceman778]

i also dont know

[Mark in Oshawa]

It's difficult for any nation. Personally I think any part of any country should be able to break away if they so desire. However, you have to guard against short termism. After all if Scotland were to become independent it would be permanent. For them to break away just because they don't like the particular flavour of government in Westminster or as a protest against spending cuts would be a mistake.

The problem is many of the people conned into voting for separation are often sold a bill of goods. The costs of the separation and the details of who gets what are often assumed to be all in the breakaway's favour. The separtists are always willing to soft sell the costs and implications, and oversell the pluses to the point where the truth is just a passing ship in the night. THAT is what is so irritating....

The fact is, Scotland might very well be capable of being a separate nation much like Ireland, but the first thing Scotland would do is look for common ground and common touchstones to link with other nations. Most nations belong in bloc's, and some of these are quite thick. Being a member of the EC is a necessity in Europe....so where Scotland would GAIN would also be handed back by joining the EC. In short...I just wonder if there is any point other than pride at stake, and the last time I looked, I never met a Scot who wasn't proud of his heritage or where he was from; and he didn't need to have the UK passport replaced by a Scottish one to feel that pride.

[Iceman778]

nothing just si at home n enjoy

Zstar Electronic Co.Ltd, Sell fire cards for DS/NDSL/NDSi, also have Wii, DSiLL, NDSi, NDSL, PSP2000, PSP3000, PS2, PS3, PSP go, PSP, Xbox360 accessories, all kinds of phones are available
http://www.zstar.hk
http://www.tigersupermall.com

[Rudy Tamasz]

Being a member of the EC is a necessity in Europe....so where Scotland would GAIN would also be handed back by joining the EC.

What is the value added of being an EC member if everybody else is a member, too? Scotland would be better off being a Switzerland of North. Its economy will have a competitive advantage offering banking and other services exempt from moronic rules and regulations dictated by eurocrats in Brussels.

[Mark]

What is the value added of being an EC member if everybody else is a member, too? Scotland would be better off being a Switzerland of North. Its economy will have a competitive advantage offering banking and other services exempt from moronic rules and regulations dictated by eurocrats in Brussels.

Nah, look at Ireland, it has benefited massively from being a member of the EU. Isolationist policies, while they look attractive on paper, almost never work out for the country concerned!

Salmond has stated that following Scottish independence they would continue to use UK pounds for a while until such time as they can join the Euro.

[Rollo]

Salmond has stated that following Scottish independence they would continue to use UK pounds for a while until such time as they can join the Euro.

Which is never:

Scotland is in a unique position in the world in that legal tender for the country is not issued by a Central Bank by by private companies. Currently the Scottish banks have the ability to issue debt into the hands of the public as banknotes.

Would Brussels would allow the Scottish Banks to issue Euro? If not then if the UK joins the Euro, what happens to all that currency? More than likely there'd be a forced buyback of all privately issued banknotes. No country with a gnat's crotchet of sense would deliberately force the bankruptcy of its banks.


Scotland can't join the Euro, because it would cause the Scottish to make a forcible buy-back of currency. The actual act of joining the Euro legally must create a run on Scottish Banks.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Nah, look at Ireland, it has benefited massively from being a member of the EU. Isolationist policies, while they look attractive on paper, almost never work out for the country concerned!

Salmond has stated that following Scottish independence they would continue to use UK pounds for a while until such time as they can join the Euro.

There are two ways of 'benefitting' from joining EU. One is through new opportunities (new markets, investments, free labor movement, etc.). This is a good thing in my book. Second is through the welfare that EU provides to its poorer members. While it helps in a short term perpsective, it makes countries addicted to EU giveaways and proves counterproductive at the end of the day. Look at Greece.

Then there are downright negative consequences of joining EU, but that's another story.

[Mark in Oshawa]

What is the value added of being an EC member if everybody else is a member, too? Scotland would be better off being a Switzerland of North. Its economy will have a competitive advantage offering banking and other services exempt from moronic rules and regulations dictated by eurocrats in Brussels.

It works for the Swiss because it has always worked for them, and their banks are part of the world's community in a big way, and haven't had the failures that say the RBS almost did..

The Scot's are whistling past the graveyard if they really think they can truly be completely independent and make a go of it.....

[Mark]

So, some years later, it's been agreed that there will be a referendum in 2014 on the issue of Scottish Independence. And there will be a simple Yes / No question.

So to those Scottish forum members, how will you be voting?

[Mintexmemory]

Which is never:


Scotland can't join the Euro, because it would cause the Scottish to make a forcible buy-back of currency. The actual act of joining the Euro legally must create a run on Scottish Banks.
Interesting. while 'scottish' banks issue 'scottish' currency - which despite English suspicion are legel tender throughout the UK - they are in fact UK banks and are regulated from Westminster. Most UK taxpayers having 'ownership' of these baled-out concerns are likely to be extremely miffed if they are given away as part of a sop to Salmond. If the Scots really want independence then they should swallow the cost of it, including setting up their own banking system. Quite what they have as collateral to establish banks is a mystery as they do not 'own' the oil in the North Sea - That was a UK exploration.

[Mark]

Actually Scottish bank notes have no legal tender status at all. Even in Scotland. It's only convention which means they are accepted.

[J4MIE]

As far as I'm aware, due to moving to England I won't be able to vote.

[J4MIE]

I have no problem at all otherwise I wouldn't have moved. It's mainly just banter but am aware that I need to be careful here now in case someone takes it the wrong way :s

[driveace]

When I worked in Glasgow in 78/79 ,one of the guys I worked with called us English thieving *******s as we were taking the revenue from their North Sea Oil .So the majority do believe that NSO is theirs.Personally I cannot see the vote going Scotlands way ,as I believe only about 28% voted for it in a referendum

[MrJan]

I work with a girl who is Scottish and she said she is considering moving back to Scotland so she can vote. She hates the English and is quite vocal about that although she said she likes me.

Always strikes me as strange when you meet other nationalities who hate England and the English yet choose to live here.

[gadjo_dilo]

This debate reminds me of the one about Kosovo independence.
Strangely ( or not? :laugh :) that time it was an unanimity of you in saying "yes".

[Mintexmemory]

Actually Scottish bank notes have no legal tender status at all. Even in Scotland. It's only convention which means they are accepted.

From the Committee of Scottish Bankers (NOT rhyming slang!)
The legal position with regard to Scottish Banknotes is as follows:
Scottish Banknotes are legal currency – i.e. they are approved by the UK Parliament. However, Scottish Bank notes are not Legal Tender, not even in Scotland. In fact, no banknote whatsoever (including Bank of England notes!) qualifies for the term 'legal tender' north of the border and the Scottish economy seems to manage without that legal protection.
HM Treasury is responsible for defining which notes have ‘legal tender’ status within the United Kingdom and the following extract from Bank of England’s website may help to clarify what is meant by “legal tender” and how little practical meaning the phrase has in everyday transactions.
“The term legal tender does not in itself govern the acceptability of banknotes in transactions. Whether or not notes have legal tender status, their acceptability as a means of payment is essentially a matter for agreement between the parties involved. Legal tender has a very narrow technical meaning in relation to the settlement of debt. If a debtor pays in legal tender the exact amount he owes under the terms of a contract, he has good defence in law if he is subsequently sued for non-payment of the debt. In ordinary everyday transactions, the term ‘legal tender’ has very little practical application.”
OK so I got the terminology wrong, I can go into a branch of M&S in London with a Scottish £20 note and expect them to accept it in exchange for goods. The convention of agreement is long established - it's just they never seem to have trained the cashiers who look at it as though you've offered Monopoly money!

[Mark]

I have seen a fair few shops who declare at their checkouts that they do not accept Scottish notes and English £50 notes due to the ease of forgery. If people in England and Wales are not coming into contact with the currency so often, its easy to take advantage of this. Shops appear to be within their rights to refuse. :)

As if you take the items to the checkout you don't yet have a 'debt', then the shop isn't obliged to accept anything at all. If they don't like your face they can tell you to get out. Just as long as they don't discriminate on grounds of race, religion etc.

[gadjo_dilo]

I don't have any strong opinions against the Welsh and the Scots. I wouldn't have moved to Wales and married a Welsh girl if I did :)

As if we don't already know that love crush any barrier.... :laugh:

[gadjo_dilo]

..... then the shop isn't obliged to accept anything at all. If they don't like your face they can tell you to get out. Just as long as they don't discriminate on grounds of race, religion etc.

Good God! On these condition I should die of malnutrition.....

[Mark]

Have you got a bad face?

[donKey jote]

which would that be, white and woolly ? :andrea:

[Tazio]

At least Scotland has the "Well Oiled Sisters" ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btc7VhvH-A4

[donKey jote]

frigging good ! :andrea: :up:

[gadjo_dilo]

Have you got a bad face?

Flattered bottle would be a perfect description. :laugh:


which would that be, white and woolly ?
If you see me like a sheep I'm generally perceived like the dark one.


Coming back to Scotland and its inhabiants: a scot drove me crazy last evening.

[gadjo_dilo]

What? Haven't seen such an annoying guy for years.

[MrJan]

I did a quiz with a Scotch last night that didn't even know how old Flower of Scotland is. Lost us the game.

[Mintexmemory]

I did a quiz with a Scotch last night that didn't even know how old Flower of Scotland is. Lost us the game.

Late 60s - Robin Hall and Jimmy McGregor (without Google, and I'm very much a Sassenach)

[yodasarmpit]

I did a quiz with a Scotch last night that didn't even know how old Flower of Scotland is. Lost us the game.

Well, I'm sure if it had been with a Scot, things may have faired better. Got to watch out for those Scotch's whoever they may be.

[MrJan]

Well, I'm sure if it had been with a Scot, things may have faired better. Got to watch out for those Scotch's whoever they may be.

Yeah, that winds up this Scotch too ;)

[J4MIE]

I reckon that Salmond is pretty much after increased devolution powers as there isn't enough support for full independence.

I would vote YES if possible, not due to reasons of economics or anti-nuclear or whatnot, but purely because I couldn't bring myself to vote against it :)

[Rollo]

The Union Flag is going to have to... be retired if Scotland is independent.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/A5tb2hiCcAAY-_n.png

The Union Flag is for the United Kingdom. If Scotland leaves the union, there is no more United Kingdom.

Remove the Cross of St Andrew. Change a quadrant to green to reflect Wales. Retain the Cross of St Patrick for Northern Ireland, and change a quadrant to black to recognise the Celtic nation of Cornwall.
Should Scotland leave the Union, what happens to the other countries flags which still retain the Union Flag in the canton?

Less importantly, should the England cricket team retain the navy blue cap and strip? I note that the England football team's latest strip has no trace of blue anywhere on it.

[D-Type]

I totally agree - the flag reflects history. For example the old Union of South Africa flag incorporated the Union Jack (for Natal and Cape province) along with the flags of the Transvaal and the Orange Free State and continued to do so after S Africa severed all ties with Britain and seceded from the Commonwealth. Although independent, Fiji and Tuvalu retain the Union Jack on their flags for historical reasons as does Hawaii although a US State.

But an independent scotland would have its own flag, presumably the Saltire as the lion Rampant is the Royal Standard, ie the flag of the King of Scots, not of the country.

[Rollo]

But an independent scotland would have its own flag, presumably the Saltire as the lion Rampant is the Royal Standard, ie the flag of the King of Scots, not of the country.

Scotland does have its own flag irrespective of if it's independent or not. The cross of St Andrew is the flag of Scotland. The Royal Standard of Scotland, the gules lion rampant would remain.
In fact, the referendum in question wouldn't even dissolve the personal union of the Crown. It effectively reverts the Scotland to a pre-1701 status.

Scotland would I suspect be like another of the Commonwealth Realms like Canada, New Zealand or Australia except that the monarch is firstly Scotland's.

[BleAivano]

about independence referendums, Catalonia will have theirs at November 25th.

[donKey jote]

not exactly... it's regional elections on the 25th. :)
The referendum might come later, but I reckon the outcome would be merely symbolic even it it were for independence.
An independent Catalonia outside the EU? Who would they turn to to bail them out ? :devil:

[BleAivano]

not exactly... it's regional elections on the 25th. :)
The referendum might come later, but I reckon the outcome would be merely symbolic even it it were for independence.
An independent Catalonia outside the EU? Who would they turn to to bail them out ? :devil:


right, sorry i misunderstood it.

[Rudy Tamasz]

not exactly... it's regional elections on the 25th. :)
The referendum might come later, but I reckon the outcome would be merely symbolic even it it were for independence.
An independent Catalonia outside the EU? Who would they turn to to bail them out ? :devil:

Been there recently and the economy seems quite vibrant. I saw stores that work three hours on certain days. That's what I call prosperity. Or is it just southern idleness? ;)

[gadjo_dilo]

I saw stores that work three hours on certain days.

Wish I worked there.....

[Rudy Tamasz]

Wish I worked there.....

I guess you have to be a wealthy Catalonian to afford a luxury of running a fancy leather store just for fun. No wonder they want to separate from the rest of Spain. From what I've seen many Catalonians don't think they have anything to do with Spain at all.

[gadjo_dilo]

I guess you have to be a wealthy Catalonian to afford a luxury of running a fancy leather store just for fun. No wonder they want to separate from the rest of Spain. From what I've seen many Catalonians don't think they have anything to do with Spain at all.

Since I'm but a poor romanian without any career ambition I'd be happy with the job of a shop asistant in a wealthy Catalonian's store.

[BleAivano]

What would happened with Spain if Catalonia and possible also the Basque region would declare their in dependency?

What consequences would it have for other countries with regions that wishes independence?