Cicero; The Enemy Within

[SportscarBruce]

I shall dedicate this to my long-time philosophical enemies within the business of racing;

"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself."

"For the traitor appears not a traitor – he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear."

– Marcus Tullius Cicero 42 B.C


At the heard of the baseness Cicero speaks of lies greed. Greed, it is the essence of capitalist materialism, it is that which chains people and government to the shackles of debt slavery. Greed does not bring freedom to all, it merely frees the most calculating and cruel among us from the bounds of morality. Greed corrupts.

Capitalism is not Freedom. Put that in your pipe and smoke it....

[Dave B]

What you talkin' about, Willis?

[anthonyvop]

Capitalism is not Freedom.


Capitalism is the purest form of freedom...there is no debate on that.

[gloomyDAY]

Capitalism is the purest form of freedom...there is no debate on that. :eek: No debate? Oh, I think there's plenty.

Freedom and capitalism are mutually exclusive. Ever heard of a place called China? You can blow all your money on a brand new snowboard, travel to Japan and ride the mountains. Just don't do anything stupid, for example, petitioning to change a law. You might find yourself with a bullet lodged in your head.

[janvanvurpa]

:eek: No debate? Oh, I think there's plenty.

Freedom and capitalism are mutually exclusive. Ever heard of a place called China? You can blow all your money on a brand new snowboard, travel to Japan and ride the mountains. Just don't do anything stupid, for example, petitioning to change a law. You might find yourself with a bullet lodged in your head.

Actually kid, that's bulls**t.
Think now.
Do you know your history, or more specifically Chinese history?
How many revolutions and civil wars did they have last century??

There are many many MANY very feisty Chinese. I have them in my own family.
My father in law, long before he was my father in law, back in the 70s, was like everybody else fed up with a canal or river that ran by their end of town which had become clogged and sluggish and a breeding place for "clouds of mosquitoes" so he smooshed and SAVED a hundred mosquitoes which he poured into the envelope of the letter which he wrote to the local Party Officials---and another for the Regional newspapaper step by step describing the problems they had had, they promises given and the promises broken.

It worked.

No bullet in the head.

I think very few non-Native Chinese understand how local level things are done and in the end its just like anywhere: useless bureaucrats, Bureaus protecting their turf, people just trying to live and get stuff done, and newspapers balancing between local boosterism and occasionally exposing lazy/incompetent officials and trying to get some lazy people to get off their duffs.
Give you an idea, Christmas a couple of years ago there was a huge windstorm in the whole PNW, power out for millions and we had no electricity for 9-10 days and snow all over. It was chaos. 2 babies under 3, sick with flu, colder than hell and no answers anywhere you tired to call.

My sweet little wife said after the second day "This is amazing; it's supposed to be a real city here and its more than 36 hours without power for millions.
In China, there'd be thousands out in front of the mayors office demanding that they get in gear and if they didn't do something, you'd have a riot"

They're feisty.

[SportscarBruce]

Capitalism is the purest form of freedom...there is no debate on that.

Tell it to the descends of plantation slaves. Capitalism, not Racism, was at the root of it all. Or else why would racist whites ship them over?

[SportscarBruce]

:eek: No debate? Oh, I think there's plenty.

Freedom and capitalism are mutually exclusive. Ever heard of a place called China? You can blow all your money on a brand new snowboard, travel to Japan and ride the mountains. Just don't do anything stupid, for example, petitioning to change a law. You might find yourself with a bullet lodged in your head.

Heck, every President since Reagan has been a lapdog of the Communist government.

Why? Because international banking and commerce runs the government. He doesn't work for the American people, he works for them.

See Obama head across the ocean with his free speech rhetoric.

See Obama return with his tail between his legs.

pttf

[anthonyvop]

Pure Capitalism is pure freedom. No other form is a free. You can bring up dubious anecdotal evidence like China, that is on no way shape or form a capitalist society, and it doesn't change the fact.

[janvanvurpa]

Pure Capitalism is pure freedom. No other form is a free. You can bring up dubious anecdotal evidence like China, that is on no way shape or form a capitalist society, and it doesn't change the fact.

You are nearly 100% insane to say that, as usual.

Not intersted in trading nicities with you, but just who in your imaginary "pure" capitalist society benefits from the "freedom"

Now we know that you lack and education at all on US history, but maybe some of the people here will be kind enough to describe what America was like when it was very nearly a pure capitalist society in the 1880s and 90s.....

(Give you a hint---most everybody lived like the peasants where you come from.)

[Rollo]

Pure Capitalism is pure freedom. No other form is a free.

http://www.fireservice.co.uk/history/
Policy holders were given a badge, or fire mark, to affix to their building. If a fire started, the Fire Brigade was called. They looked for the fire mark and, provided it was the right one, the fire would be dealt with. Often the buildings were left to burn until the right company attended!

Bring on freedom and let more buildings burn!

[gloomyDAY]

Actually kid, that's bulls**t.I read your whole post, but I didn't find one thing: the point!

I am saying that Chinese people cannot have a say on officials elected to positions of power, therefore, find it far more difficult to make any changes. Only the Communist Party has that authority.


Pure Capitalism is pure freedom. No other form is a free. You can bring up dubious anecdotal evidence like China, that is on no way shape or form a capitalist society, and it doesn't change the fact.Pure capitalism? Where have I heard that before.........?

Oh yeah! Pure capitalism, like what was put into practice in Argentina circa 1999.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Capitalism can bring tremendous opportunities and benefits but it requires a network of governing systems to keep it from devouring societies.

[gloomyDAY]

Capitalism can bring tremendous opportunities and benefits but it requires a network of governing systems to keep it from devouring societies.Precisely. Which is why pure capitalism doesn't exist, nor pure socialism, nor pure Communism, etc.

[Jag_Warrior]

A move toward Anarchism would provide even greater "freedoms". :rolleyes:

And BTW, big props to SportscarBruce for quoting one of the greatest thinkers in the history of mankind. :up:

[janvanvurpa]

I read your whole post, but I didn't find one thing: the point!

I am saying that Chinese people cannot have a say on officials elected to positions of power, therefore, find it far more difficult to make any changes. Only the Communist Party has that authority.


But that Party has millions and millions of memebers, and they have officals down to the neighborhood level. It's HUGELY diverse internally with major sections vying for a voice and power. The Army, the peasants, the various huge cities, the various counties and Provinces etc and all of those sections are trying to get money and deals for their interest group. Everybody knows lots of people in the party and most things in China are and have always been done by, broadly speaking, consensus. You want to get a change, you speak with your friends in the Party. I have a couple of friends in the Party which looked into a couple of questions for me. First informally, then speaking with somebody who will hear you out, then after that officially.

Far easier than I found just trying to speak with a King County Commissioner for my area here. Never got past a low level flunky.

The POINT was that your claim that if you speak up for change you get a bullet in the head is nonsense.

They save that for drug dealers and corrupt executives and officials.

[chuck34]

Give you an idea, Christmas a couple of years ago there was a huge windstorm in the whole PNW, power out for millions and we had no electricity for 9-10 days and snow all over. It was chaos. 2 babies under 3, sick with flu, colder than hell and no answers anywhere you tired to call.

My sweet little wife said after the second day "This is amazing; it's supposed to be a real city here and its more than 36 hours without power for millions.
In China, there'd be thousands out in front of the mayors office demanding that they get in gear and if they didn't do something, you'd have a riot"

They're feisty.

Really? Just saying, happens everywhere.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/01/30/china.weather.apology/index.html
"Up to half a million people have camped out in the southern city for nearly a week, hoping to get home for the holiday."

[Hondo]

Tell it to the descends of plantation slaves. Capitalism, not Racism, was at the root of it all. Or else why would racist whites ship them over?

The racist whites brought them over because the capitalistic black folks from the neighboring tribes that captured them made the racist white folks a good price on them.

[janvanvurpa]

The racist whites brought them over because the capitalistic black folks from the neighboring tribes that captured them made the racist white folks a good price on them.

actually it was FEUDAL or TRIBAL Arabiac terr'ists that did a lot, or most of the capturing and selling.

The economy was pre-capitalist.

[SportscarBruce]

The racist whites brought them over because the capitalistic black folks from the neighboring tribes that captured them made the racist white folks a good price on them.

Thanks for reinforcing my point.

[Hondo]

Thanks for reinforcing my point.

I don't know as I made any point of your's other than poking fun at the "racist whites" comment. Wake up son, every race out there has been racist and always will be. Slavery was not invented by Ameican colonial white folks. Capitalism is largely built the western world. There are pros and cons to all economic systems and forms of government but one thing is true for all of them. If you do not or cannot control your population growth, ultimately any system will fail.

[anthonyvop]

(Give you a hint---most everybody lived like the peasants where you come from.)

Do you even know where I come from?

[anthonyvop]

actually it was FEUDAL or TRIBAL Arabiac terr'ists that did a lot, or most of the capturing and selling.

The economy was pre-capitalist.
So you admit that Capitalism did not create Slavery? Hmmmmmmm........
So what are the evils of Capitalism?

[Lousada]

So what are the evils of Capitalism?

Let's see. Pure capitalism as you are describing assumes no goverment.
1. It's impossible to enforce contracts without the goverment.
2. Some goods cannot be individualised. For example the army. How do you measure how much someone benefits from it and how do you make him pay? If you can't work that out, the free market will not establish an army.
3. Some stuff is too expensive to arrange in the free market, like healthcare.
4. Some things are more efficient when they are arranged uniform and collective. For example education. In the long run society as a whole will be better of with good education, but individually only few make a real profit from being educated. So in the free market many people will not put their kids to school.