1000mph car

[Sonic]

I was aware of this effort from the guys who brought us the Thrust which intends break 1000mph in 2011;

http://www.techradar.com/news/world-of-tech/car-tech/work-starts-on-1-000mph-car-from-bristol-653593

but it looks like its turned into a race to a) be the first to break the current land speed record of 763mph and b) to break the 1000mph barrier, with both an American entry and an Aussie one.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427356.000-the-race-to-build-a-1000-mph-car.html

Obviously as a Brit I'd love to see the Bloodhound win but I have to admit I really like the way the US/Canada team have gone about it -

Instead of designing a car from scratch, they have taken the fuselage of a scrapped F-104 Starfighter aircraft, added the engine from an F-4 Phantom supersonic fighter-bomber bought from a surplus seller, and bolted on some wheels. "We know the aircraft can do around 1500 mph, so if we can do just half of that on land we're already pretty close to the record," says Ed Shadle, the car's driver and co-owner. See EASY! :D

[Wade91]

cool :D

[Azumanga Davo]

Also not forgetting the mad bloke at:

http://www.aussieinvader.com

[Sonic]

They are all either very very brave, or very very very stupid!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Sonic, likely a bit of both, depending on who you talk to. I do know the American/Canadian effort with the F-104 fuselage was just too short of funds to really get going. Last I heard they were still in the testing stage, but I suspect wanting more money to do all the little things that must be done to ensure this car does what it is being asked to do.

This is facinanting stuff, but I suspect to get past the current record it will be a fight. The plane that does 1500mph has a lot more issues when you rip the wings off and put it on special wheels. Rolling resistance and the shockwave close to the ground would likely be very significant hurdles. I am thinking the next 100mph on top of the record will really push the science involved...

[airshifter]

Sonic, likely a bit of both, depending on who you talk to. I do know the American/Canadian effort with the F-104 fuselage was just too short of funds to really get going. Last I heard they were still in the testing stage, but I suspect wanting more money to do all the little things that must be done to ensure this car does what it is being asked to do.

This is facinanting stuff, but I suspect to get past the current record it will be a fight. The plane that does 1500mph has a lot more issues when you rip the wings off and put it on special wheels. Rolling resistance and the shockwave close to the ground would likely be very significant hurdles. I am thinking the next 100mph on top of the record will really push the science involved...

I'd agree, these guys are really pushing limits.

Not long ago I saw a show on the US effort, I think it was on Discovery Channel (but may have been SpeedTV). They seemed to be having the expected teething problems, and lack of funds was evident. To make matters worse, there aren't many places in the world to test these things.

I'll give them credit for what thery are in pursuit of. I'd love to go 1000+ in a jet at low altitude, but I'm not sure I'd want to do it attached to earth.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I'd agree, these guys are really pushing limits.

Not long ago I saw a show on the US effort, I think it was on Discovery Channel (but may have been SpeedTV). They seemed to be having the expected teething problems, and lack of funds was evident. To make matters worse, there aren't many places in the world to test these things.

I'll give them credit for what thery are in pursuit of. I'd love to go 1000+ in a jet at low altitude, but I'm not sure I'd want to do it attached to earth.

It was on Discovery. The team is based out of Washington, but the old Pratt and Whitney motor in the Starfighter was a Canadian surplus model from the days we used the F-104. The only guys really up on how to tune those were a company in Prince George BC who use the units for APU emergency generators. This engine wasn't converted into a turbine/gen unit yet and they bought into the project.

[chuck34]

This may be a dumb question, but I'll ask anyway. Are there any F-104's still flying today? I would assume there are. If so, would it be a good idea for these guys to commission a test of flying one through the sound barrier in close proximity to the ground. That might provide quite a lot of data on how the "car" will perform. Or maybe it'd just give them "data overload" and in the wrong direction too?

[Rollo]

The team is based out of Washington, but the old Pratt and Whitney motor in the Starfighter was a Canadian surplus model from the days we used the F-104.

To answer both Mark and Chuck, the engine in the F-104 was usually the General Electric J79. This has already featured in a world land speed record holder.

Art Arfons' car, called the "Green Monster" had a J79, which he'd bought from a scrap dealer for $600, and then GE refused to sell him any service manuals, so he rebuilt the thing himself. I think he eventually got 576mph out of the car but was eventually beaten by Craig Breelove's "Sprit of America", but I can't remember whether of not "Sprit of America - Sonic 1" counts or not because it was a tricycle.

The J79 throws out about 18,000lbf of thrust as opposed to the two RR Spey 205s in Thrust SSC which are good for about 55,000lbf a piece.

[Mark in Oshawa]

To answer both Mark and Chuck, the engine in the F-104 was usually the General Electric J79. This has already featured in a world land speed record holder.

Art Arfons' car, called the "Green Monster" had a J79, which he'd bought from a scrap dealer for $600, and then GE refused to sell him any service manuals, so he rebuilt the thing himself. I think he eventually got 576mph out of the car but was eventually beaten by Craig Breelove's "Sprit of America", but I can't remember whether of not "Sprit of America - Sonic 1" counts or not because it was a tricycle.

The J79 throws out about 18,000lbf of thrust as opposed to the two RR Spey 205s in Thrust SSC which are good for about 55,000lbf a piece.

It is a J79, but the people doing the work on the motor out of BC us a varient with a turboshaft for powering pipelines. They were brought in as the experts on how to try to milk more power out of the car.

The Thrust car was MUCH larger and has a much larger frontal area. I think this is where the lighter and less powerful J79 powered F-104 based car should have a shot, but I do agree I doubt 1000 mph is doable with the J79 power alone. The website whe you can read about their project is:

http://www.landspeed.com/index.htm

They have a goal of 800mph. I think it is a doable goal...but the Thrust proved that a lot of power doesn't mean large gains, so I wouldn't be surprised if the North American Eagle isn't looking for a way to get more out of the J79. That said, if a Starfighter could fly Mach 2, it should be possible to get Mach 1 and a bit more without the wings...

[chuck34]

My question wasn't really about the engines. I was asking more about the aerodynamic ground effect forces. But again perhaps by taking the wings off, having a winged vehicle in close proximity to the ground doesn't really simulate the right things?

[Mark in Oshawa]

My question wasn't really about the engines. I was asking more about the aerodynamic ground effect forces. But again perhaps by taking the wings off, having a winged vehicle in close proximity to the ground doesn't really simulate the right things?

I think they could find out most of what they need in a wind tunnel except for the effect of the shock wave. Short of having an f-104 fly 1500 mph on the deck 2 feet off the ground, you would never really know how that supersonic shockwave interacts with the ground. I think we need a physics/aero expert to chime in here, but from my reading of the original stories of the run at the sound barrier in the air, that shockwave is something that is quite a bit of force. You are compressing air and the effect of it not wanting to go any faster is what is the unknown factor when you have the drag of the ground being so close.

We should get Hoop from the Indycar board to join in on this one.....he is the most technically savvy guy I know on the boards...

[chuck34]

I think they could find out most of what they need in a wind tunnel except for the effect of the shock wave. Short of having an f-104 fly 1500 mph on the deck 2 feet off the ground, you would never really know how that supersonic shockwave interacts with the ground. I think we need a physics/aero expert to chime in here, but from my reading of the original stories of the run at the sound barrier in the air, that shockwave is something that is quite a bit of force. You are compressing air and the effect of it not wanting to go any faster is what is the unknown factor when you have the drag of the ground being so close.

We should get Hoop from the Indycar board to join in on this one.....he is the most technically savvy guy I know on the boards...

I know a bit about aero stuff. Just enough to be dangerous. Having an F-104 fly 1500mph 2 feet off the ground is exaclty what I am proposing. I think that may be the "easiest" way to get the aero loading data that is probably needed. But like I said, the wings on the actualy plane may negatively effect the data you obtain.

Is there a super-sonic rolling road wind tunnel anywhere? I would assume no. Perhaps there is enough data from the Thrust SSC to calibrate a CFD model? I honestly don't know how any of this is done (maybe mostly "seat of the pants" ala Chuck Yeager), and that's why I find it so facinating.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I know a bit about aero stuff. Just enough to be dangerous. Having an F-104 fly 1500mph 2 feet off the ground is exaclty what I am proposing. .

Ummm don't sneeze or nothing? You find me a pilot willing to fly a widowmaker THAT low and I will find you a fool just as quickly. You get a ground effect and no way of getting an accurate insturment reading of the forces anyhow.

They can use computer models and I think there is a wind tunnel that can produce Mach/Sound Barrier effects somewhere. Probably would be a small fortune to rent it and I doubt you would get all you need out of it.

[chuck34]

Ummm don't sneeze or nothing? You find me a pilot willing to fly a widowmaker THAT low and I will find you a fool just as quickly. You get a ground effect and no way of getting an accurate insturment reading of the forces anyhow.

They can use computer models and I think there is a wind tunnel that can produce Mach/Sound Barrier effects somewhere. Probably would be a small fortune to rent it and I doubt you would get all you need out of it.

I'm not saying it'd be easy to find that pilot. Just wondering if it would help? :-)

There are plenty of wind tunnels that can go supersonic (I think anyway). But I'd bet none of them have a moving ground plane, and that is what's important here. Just ask the F1 guys why they all have rolling roads now.

[Rollo]

I know a bit about aero stuff. Just enough to be dangerous. Having an F-104 fly 1500mph 2 feet off the ground is exactly what I am proposing. I think that may be the "easiest" way to get the aero loading data that is probably needed.

I wonder what constitutes the definition of a "car" in the first place.

Could it be possible to develop something like an Ekranoplan and have it touch the ground on wheels that act little more than casters?

If you could "fly" an F-104 on wheels and 2 feet from the deck, is that a car or not?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I wonder what constitutes the definition of a "car" in the first place.

Could it be possible to develop something like an Ekranoplan and have it touch the ground on wheels that act little more than casters?

If you could "fly" an F-104 on wheels and 2 feet from the deck, is that a car or not?

Could the wheels and beam connecting them to the 'aircraft' be made to strong enough? They beams would also create a lot of drag. Isn't it always much more aerodynamic for a car to be as close as possible to the ground?

The biggest issues facing the aerodynamics of Super Sonic Cars are drag and lift. Just think about all of the pressure that builds up under the nose of these cars when travelling at Mach1. Thrust2 wasn't even Super Sonic but it was calculated that it would have been only able to go about 10mph faster before the nose would have lifted.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Could the wheels and beam connecting them to the 'aircraft' be made to strong enough? They beams would also create a lot of drag. Isn't it always much more aerodynamic for a car to be as close as possible to the ground?

The biggest issues facing the aerodynamics of Super Sonic Cars are drag and lift. Just think about all of the pressure that builds up under the nose of these cars when travelling at Mach1. Thrust2 wasn't even Super Sonic but it was calculated that it would have been only able to go about 10mph faster before the nose would have lifted.


The wheels they are putting on the North American Eagle are all aluminum and apparnetly will hold up to the 8000rpm they will turn at 800mph.

The aero of the car might work because the car has so little frontal area and is just round tube for the most part. The tail section might have some trim tabs to keep the car down. I am not sure what they have done. Saw the program on Canada's version of Discovery Channel today on the car and they are still trying to get the j-79 to work and get the car shook down. I suspect financial assistance is required.

[TVU]

Bloodhound will be in Ealing next Friday 26th November, they'll set up their a small scale models of the car, engine and other goodies. :D

The Bloodhound Education Director and some Bloodhound Ambassadors will be at the Thames Valley University campus in Ealing St. Mary's Road from about 11am to speak to students there but its open access so anyone can go in and have a look and talk to them....

Also there is a dinner in the evening with the Education Director, starting with him giving a presentation on the project challenges Bloodhound has experienced from engineering, logistics, funding and working in virtual team, its an opportunity to get some insight on the project....

The places for that dinner are limited to 35 so this is a great chance to speak to a member of the Bloodhound team face to face and ask all the burning questions you might have. Registration for the dinner has only opened yesterday so there are still places left...

I work for the University and am definitely going to the dinner, you could use the booking form on the website but as it's on a first come first serve I would recommend emailing the events team... that will speed up your chance to get a place: e3events@tvu.ac.uk



http://www.tvu.ac.uk/employers/busin...ect_dinner.jsp (http://www.tvu.ac.uk/employers/business_events/challenging_project_management/Bloodhound_SSC_Project_dinner.jsp)

http://www.tvu.ac.uk/images/employers/bloodhound_at_btc.jpg (http://www.tvu.ac.uk/images/employers/bloodhound_at_btc.jpg)

[Bob Riebe]

They are all either very very brave, or very very very stupid!

Why?

[Bob Riebe]

[quote="Rollo"]I wonder what constitutes the definition of a "car" in the first place. Four tires on the ground.

Could it be possible to develop something like an Ekranoplan and have it touch the ground on wheels that act little more than casters? The car has to be able to be steered by the tires. (At least that was the rule in the past) Arfons cars was actually driven by him to the refueling station on one run.

If you could "fly" an F-104 on wheels and 2 feet from the deck, is that a car or not Air is drag, you do not want air under the car, or as little as possible. Heat build up is a very important part of this equation. The faster you go, the vastly greater amount of heat is generated per x mph.