Button signs 3-year McLaren contract. CONFIRMED

[wedge]

But can't the same be said about most other drivers? We can probably count on one hand the number of drivers would could win races and championships in a fair to middling car, let alone a poor one.

Jenson, when provided with the opportunity, made the most of it and produced wins and a championship. He couldn't have done much more. It doesn't really matter now what he did in the Williams, Benetton-Renault, BAR or Honda...in 2009 he proved he can get the job done.

Yes, he may be champion but its how you win it.

Bunsen can't polish a turd.

Senna can, Schumi can, hell even Hamilton.

Driving/riding inferior machinery has always been a mark of driver/rider in motorsport.

Everyone gets stuck in a rut over a WDC fight at some point, its how you overcome them.

Bunsen had the best car and was dealt a good hand with somewhat iffy opponents/yet to peak (in the case of Vettel) and lacked class and was found wanting too many times for my liking by scraping the barrel and putting himself in positions he shouldn't be in (ie. qualy outside top 10).

[wedge]

Quite. I have drivers I like and drivers I don't particularly like. To say that you 'hate' one is rather strong!

Agreed

I refuse to bow down to the Bunsen bandwagon just because he's WDC. And being WDC doesn't necessarily make you the creme de la creme hence why I see him over rated.

If he wants any recognition from me then he's going to have to do something pretty special a la Massa 2008

Raise his game against Hamilton next year and equal his McLaren team mate at the very least.

[ArrowsFA1]

Bunsen can't polish a turd.

Senna can, Schumi can, hell even Hamilton.

Driving/riding inferior machinery has always been a mark of driver/rider in motorsport.
I was talking about this very thing with Riccardo Patrese at the weekend because a visitor to his website had posed a question (http://riccardopatrese.net/weblog/?p=3634) for him about how enthusiasts can get an accurate picture of a drivers skill.

Obviously his is just an opinion like any other but this is what he had to say:

It is difficult to rate a driver from watching TV or reading what is written in magazines, but it is also difficult sometimes for people inside F1 as well.
Team members can see lap times, split times and see how quick a driver is, but also – and this is important – how consistent they are.
I think you have to see how a driver performs in a quick car. When they are competing, for example, for 12th position in F1 you are never sure, but when a driver is in a quick car you can see if he is capable of competing at the front, winning races, and managing the pressure that comes with this.
Jenson Button had his chance with a good car this year and he won the championship so I think that shows he is very good. Before, he had shown he was good at times although perhaps when he didn’t have a good car he lost some motivation, but this year has shown there is no doubt that he is a very good driver.
Of course, now he is the same team as Lewis Hamilton. I think Button still has a chance of winning the championship again because McLaren, especially at the end of the year, looked very competitive, but I think Hamilton is one of the outstanding drivers in F1 so it will be interesting to see how good Button is compared to his new team mate.
When you watch a driver in the lower formulae like F3 or GP2 and you see a driver winning races and leading the championship you can never be sure how good they will be in F1. The grids in these categories are full of young prospects but it is difficult to know just how strong the level of competition is. When a driver gets to F1 he is competing against the best, the top drivers. He may show well fighting in the midfield but, if he gets in a top car, then at that moment you know, and the driver himself knows, how good they are.
In another Q&A he expressed the view that Senna and Schumacher were a step above Alain Prost because they, more than him, could make the difference in an inferior car. He made the point that Schumacher had challenged for the title in the 1996 Ferrari, for example, but even MS couldn't win the title in that car.

I think his point, relating this to Button, was that many drivers can look good at times in the midfield but it's only when (if) they get into a winning car that we know whether they can put together a championship winning season. At Brawn this year Button did. His team-mate didn't manage it at Brawn or Ferrari.

In that sense it's not "how you win it" but whether you win it when the opportunity presents itself.

[Valve Bounce]

Agreed

I refuse to bow down to the Bunsen bandwagon just because he's WDC. And being WDC doesn't necessarily make you the creme de la creme hence why I see him over rated.

If he wants any recognition from me then he's going to have to do something pretty special a la Massa 2008

Raise his game against Hamilton next year and equal his McLaren team mate at the very least.

This may or may not define Bunsen's ability. If he is playing on a level field, then a fair comparison would tell us how good he is. But if McLaren starts paying funny games and favour Hamilton, then it would be difficult to see how good the guy is. It could end up a John vs Anthony game in the background.

I'll wait and see.

[Saint Devote]

I don't think any of us know the drivers well enough to warrant hating them. Most of the opinions based on a drivers character (on this forum) come from snippets of interviews should on TV. Its all down to bias at the end of the day.. :)

There are also actions off track which are not widely publicized - and since we are referring to Lewis.

He really is golden towards his fans - examples - from his going out to meet with a couple of fans that made some sort of display for him - they were just so amazed to see him and, his sudden arrival to spend some time with a little boy, an absolute Lewis fan. The kid is fighting a life threatening disease. He asked his mother if Lewis would arrive. Lewis arriving suddenly surprised them and the little kid burst into tears of happiness.

Also there is the obvious closeness that Lewis has for his family.

Also Lewis has had on occassion had to put up with bigots in Spain and then recently at Interlagos when people threw peanuts at him and the connotation is obvious. Yet Lewis acted with dignity and control and has never reacted in return.

He has fallen down - the liegate issue - but remember Lewis is also very young and his weaknesses are still to be fully ironed out. It does not excuse him - but I do believe when he says that it was a dreadful time for him.

Although I also have sympathy for Dave Ryan who was effectively a scapegoat - but he was the older and experienced hand there and ought to have known better.

[Saint Devote]

Agreed

I refuse to bow down to the Bunsen bandwagon just because he's WDC. And being WDC doesn't necessarily make you the creme de la creme hence why I see him over rated.

If he wants any recognition from me then he's going to have to do something pretty special a la Massa 2008

Raise his game against Hamilton next year and equal his McLaren team mate at the very least.

I am sure Jenson while at home in Monte Carlo duing the off season will be devastated to read he has not yet received your "recognition" - your highness!!! :D

I look at all drivers two ways - how broad they are in the skill spectrum and do they get the job done.

Jenson is gifted with the ability to drive a car that is within his skill zone to win a championship. So is Lewis. The difference is that if a car does meet Jenson in his skill zone then he struggles. Lewis has the ability to adapt in thi situation. So for Jenson the car is far more important - BUT - since he Interlagos and he won the title he has been a totally different driver - very aggressive since Interlagos - making the most passes duringthe race, and people that worked with him daily say that they have never seen Jenson so relaxed and calm. Winning the championship is weight that has been lifted from Jenson of a magnitude that was immense for him.

We wil see a different and more aggressive driver in 2010 is my thought.

Both get the job done - they are both champions and that is what they are paid to so and why they are both in top f1 drives.

Whitmarsh said this week that Mclaren expects both ton's will compliment each other. At certain circuits Jenson will be better - and he expects it to be the quicker tracks, while Lewis will be better at others. I say Monte Carlo will be a toss up between the two - but if Lewis wants to beat Jenson there he is going to have to not hit the wall as he did in 2008 and 2009.

[harsha]

BUT - since he Interlagos and he won the title he has been a totally different driver - very aggressive since Interlagos - making the most passes duringthe race, and people that worked with him daily say that they have never seen Jenson so relaxed and calm. Winning the championship is weight that has been lifted from Jenson of a magnitude that was immense for him.



I take it there were 32948295393045 races after interlagos :rolleyes:

[Saint Devote]

I take it there were 32948295393045 races after interlagos :rolleyes:

Dont start with me buddy boy - where I was raised we dont take kindly to it.

[Roamy]

I don't know how we can all come on here for all these years and berate a F1 champion that hasn't cheated. This IS the highest form of auto racing and any champion that is not cheating deserves the highest respect from everyone following this sport - Button is a true champion. End of story

[Mark]

He made the point that Schumacher had challenged for the title in the 1996 Ferrari, for example, but even MS couldn't win the title in that car.


As I recall that year Schumacher won in Barcelona and Monza, but he was by no means a championship contender.

[ArrowsFA1]

As I recall that year Schumacher won in Barcelona and Monza, but he was by no means a championship contender.
True, the Williams was dominant and MS never really had a shot at the title, but nor did that particular Ferrari have any right to win races, let alone three (not forgetting Belgium ;) ).

[Saint Devote]

I see what you're saying but half the test is in the garage or the development stage. Button is very experienced within this arena and its down to him to dominate and get his needs across. A team will not favour someone because they have a nice smile, or skip around the factory high fiving everyone. They'll favour/help the man who puts in the most effort and is willing to work with the team to improve the car. Lewis is a workaholic from what I gather and spends 12 hours plus a day training and working with the team, much like Massa at Ferrari. Anthony has also worked very hard to get his son a racing career and is entitled to voice preferences within the team. John also mirrors this. Jenson needs to up his game at Mclaren and prove his worth.

With all this in mind I still expect to see cries of favouritism next season when not reviewing all the facts. It happens every year... :)

Working 12 hours a day is not exactly workaholic territory - at least in the United States. Secondly, Jenson did what he had to do at Brawn and will do the same at Mclaren.

Lastly - in my view there is a lot to be said for the Kimi approach. Just how much more goddamn boring does everyone want these drivers to become? There is already too much governance in the wrong places.

As Jenson mentioned when asked this past season - he has become a "real boring ".

[wedge]

I was talking about this very thing with Riccardo Patrese at the weekend because a visitor to his website had posed a question (http://riccardopatrese.net/weblog/?p=3634) for him about how enthusiasts can get an accurate picture of a drivers skill.

Obviously his is just an opinion like any other but this is what he had to say:

In another Q&A he expressed the view that Senna and Schumacher were a step above Alain Prost because they, more than him, could make the difference in an inferior car. He made the point that Schumacher had challenged for the title in the 1996 Ferrari, for example, but even MS couldn't win the title in that car.

I think his point, relating this to Button, was that many drivers can look good at times in the midfield but it's only when (if) they get into a winning car that we know whether they can put together a championship winning season. At Brawn this year Button did. His team-mate didn't manage it at Brawn or Ferrari.

In that sense it's not "how you win it" but whether you win it when the opportunity presents itself.

Errrr

Did you know notice the comparison between Button and Hamilton! :P


It is difficult to rate a driver from watching TV or reading what is written in magazines, but it is also difficult sometimes for people inside F1 as well.
Team members can see lap times, split times and see how quick a driver is, but also – and this is important – how consistent they are.
I think you have to see how a driver performs in a quick car. When they are competing, for example, for 12th position in F1 you are never sure, but when a driver is in a quick car you can see if he is capable of competing at the front, winning races, and managing the pressure that comes with this.
Jenson Button had his chance with a good car this year and he won the championship so I think that shows he is very good. Before, he had shown he was good at times although perhaps when he didn’t have a good car he lost some motivation, but this year has shown there is no doubt that he is a very good driver.
Of course, now he is the same team as Lewis Hamilton. I think Button still has a chance of winning the championship again because McLaren, especially at the end of the year, looked very competitive, but I think Hamilton is one of the outstanding drivers in F1 so it will be interesting to see how good Button is compared to his new team mate.
When you watch a driver in the lower formulae like F3 or GP2 and you see a driver winning races and leading the championship you can never be sure how good they will be in F1. The grids in these categories are full of young prospects but it is difficult to know just how strong the level of competition is. When a driver gets to F1 he is competing against the best, the top drivers. He may show well fighting in the midfield but, if he gets in a top car, then at that moment you know, and the driver himself knows, how good they are.

And here's the flipside to the arguement courtesy of JYS: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/jenson-button/6348429/Brazilian-GP-Jenson-Button-must-remind-us-how-good-he-is-by-winning-F1-title.html


"In his present situation you could not rate Button an all-time great, you could not put him alongside Clark, Fangio, Senna," Stewart said.

"I don't think this is going to be regarded as a great world championship. There has always been a Fangio, a Clark, a Lauda, a Prost, a Senna, a Schumacher, one guy who is the man. Who is that man this year? I don't think there is one. Button was brilliant over the first seven races.

"We are now at grand prix 16. Button has not really featured for eight races. In the meantime we have had Vettel, Webber, Barrichello, Raikkonen and Hamilton all winning. We will now have someone as world champion who is arguably not the outright, undisputed best driver of the year."

Stewart accepts that this is not how he saw it during those early races when Button was melting the asphalt from Melbourne to Istanbul. He recalls a conversation with Ross Brawn somewhere in the tropical distance that required him to take the weight off his legs lest they collapse beneath him.

"Ross said to me, 'Jackie, I have never worked with a driver as good as him at getting everything from the car, including Michael'. That was a big statement. I was impressed when he said it.

"He had seen Schumacher in the cockpit, Raikkonen and Massa, too. At that stage it looked as if he was correct. Looking at the in-car camera he was like Prost. I would have liked to have looked that good. He was driving so perfectly."

The subsequent retreat into the pack and even second billing at Brawn behind the rejuvenated Rubens Barrichello forces a reappraisal of Button's qualities.

As good as any in a quick car, but unable to ring the neck of a lesser vehicle in the manner of Schumacher, Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton and, on recent evidence, Barrichello.

"If we are looking for reasons for his slump this could be it. The other cars have caught up and Jenson is no longer in the best machinery. He has been out-performed by his team-mate since Turkey and that is because Rubens is better when the car is less than perfect. For me a driver's skill level is judged when the car is not great."

Personally there has to be a balance between the two sides of this debate for a 'worthy' champion, not just win and destroy the field when you have the best car but consolidate solid points finish whilst making that look easy as well - in the case of Button not making a fool of yourself in qualy and giving yourself a huge mountain to climb nearly every race weekend. Saying that it did make cracking entertainment regardless of where one loyalties lie.

[wedge]

I am sure Jenson while at home in Monte Carlo duing the off season will be devastated to read he has not yet received your "recognition" - your highness!!! :D

If it wasn't money then why is it he signed for McLaren and paired with Hamilton?

[ArrowsFA1]

Did you know notice the comparison between Button and Hamilton!
Absolutely. Riccardo rates Hamilton very highly. I doubt he rates Button as highly, but we will see how they compare next year.

And here's the flipside to the arguement courtesy of JYS...
Judging a drivers skill in a poor car is one thing, but that driver being able to convert his talent, if he is given the opportunity, into race wins and championships is another.

Personally there has to be a balance between the two sides of this debate for a 'worthy' champion...
Very true. There are many different reasons why a driver may, or may not, be considered a "worthy" champion, but the only reason the debate comes up is because the driver in question is world champion :)

[garyshell]

If it wasn't money then why is it he signed for McLaren and paired with Hamilton?


Because he heard the rumors of MS coming to the new Mercedes team and didn't want to be paired with him?

Gary

[garyshell]

I think a longer contract, equal status, and the promise of a championship fighting car were the most likely selling points.


The equal status thing is exactly what I was thinking of. I don't think the ONLY source of the MS rumor was the internet. Even MS own manager was in play on this one.

Gary

[garyshell]

You are right but Willi Weber is a difficult man to believe IMO. He strongly denied MS was returning last season and even said Michael is no fool and has nothing to prove. Two days later it was announced he was coming back. This latest rumour just adds to the Schumacher brand and gives it valuable publicity IMO... I'll believe it when I see it, thats my philosopy... :)


Oh I agree, but I think Button was hearing all this and more and was "hearing footsteps". Rather than risk the possibility of playing second fiddle, he bolted.

Gary

[Valve Bounce]

I would hope Button gets his information straight from the horses mouth, and doesn't trawl through the internet rumour mill looking for rumours about his future etc. I may be wrong however.. :)



Let's hope he isn't getting it from his canonised worshiper here - he'd be getting it from the other end of the horse if he did. :eek:

[wedge]

Judging a drivers skill in a poor car is one thing, but that driver being able to convert his talent, if he is given the opportunity, into race wins and championships is another.

Very true. There are many different reasons why a driver may, or may not, be considered a "worthy" champion, but the only reason the debate comes up is because the driver in question is world champion :)

Agree

There's the Kovies and Fisies who were given the opportunity and never fully got to grips with a top car; the Irvines who arguably relied too much on team orders;

And then you have the likes of Hakkinen who looked a bit lost in McLaren whose first win was gifted and DC gave them an initial win in the dark period in the mid-1990s, and yet Mika rose to the occasion in the best car. I think he answered his critics - including myself, with his titanic battle with Schumi in 2000.

ATM in time I'd be very surprised if Bunsen replicates Mika and answer his critics.

[Saint Devote]

Because he heard the rumors of MS coming to the new Mercedes team and didn't want to be paired with him?

Gary

Eh? Schumacher is a frustrated 40 year old who is rich, bored and retired because di Montezemolo sidelined him and that was part of the reason Todt left. Do you all have such short memories?

We are in fact watching Schumacher play out his mid-life crisis in frustrated mode because he also retired too soon - he was PUSHED!

I suggest reading the Autosport pages of 2006......

And Jenson leaving Brawn - Brawn was to exist no more and in place was what? Another auto manufacturer. Sure Ross is there but what happens in one year if he decides to retire? Its not his team anymore.

Mercedes have no idea about grand prix racing because all their experience has been with the best team in the business - Mclaren.

Also, what happens if a decision by Ross is then changed by Mercedes? Chaos.

Jenson more than any other driver knows exactly whats its like to drive for an auto manufacturer.

So instead what does he do? Mclaren want him - the team that is the best at everything and has a proven track record instead of a team that could not properly dial the car in for him during the second part of the season on the cooler tracks.

And you think he would not be teammate with an old grand prix driver who has aches and pains and has not driven for three years, compared to being teammate to LEWIS HAMILTON? Thats delusional.

If Jenson was afraid of competition he would not have joined Mclaren.

Most of all what is despicable is the spite and resentment and envy that is so evident from the many Jenson haters here.

But Jenson is champ and you all cant stand it - and that is the best of all because you can do nothing about it either :D

[Saint Devote]

Agree

There's the Kovies and Fisies who were given the opportunity and never fully got to grips with a top car; the Irvines who arguably relied too much on team orders;

And then you have the likes of Hakkinen who looked a bit lost in McLaren whose first win was gifted and DC gave them an initial win in the dark period in the mid-1990s, and yet Mika rose to the occasion in the best car. I think he answered his critics - including myself, with his titanic battle with Schumi in 2000.

ATM in time I'd be very surprised if Bunsen replicates Mika and answer his critics.

Who made Schumacher the standard? Hakkinen and Alsono [especially] both whacked Schumacher two years each in a row. Alonso was NEVER beaten by Schumacher because he was champ in 2005 and 2006 when Ferrari saw what was happening and di Montezemolo saw that Schumacher was over. It was a primary reason for the feud between Todt and di Montezemolo resulting in the little frog fleeing.

Jenson's critics? Jenson has had nothing BUT critics - and he a long time ago stopped being concerned with them. Read his very long interviews on his web site from years ago.

But he has answered his critics and the hate him even more.

When his detractors said he would never win a grand prix. He did.
When his detractors said he would never win another. He did.
When his career looked over, his detractors said he must retire -what a pity. He did not.
When his detractors said he would never be world champion. He won the world title!

Sucks to be his detractors because Jenson is now part of the most elite group in motor racing and sports generally - he is a WORLD CHAMPION. It is something nobody can change, EVER.

His critics? They know nothing, are worth even less. Sucks to be them - BIGTIME!

[wedge]

Who made Schumacher the standard? Hakkinen and Alsono [especially] both whacked Schumacher two years each in a row. Alonso was NEVER beaten by Schumacher because he was champ in 2005 and 2006

Hakkinen arguably had the better car and a lack of team orders delayed his inaugral titles somewhat.

Alonso - there you have it. He got what he deserved because he fought hard consistently in 05 and 06. Never saw Alonso go on a chump slump when Michelin had inferior tyres and failling to qualify in the top 10 in qualy.



His critics? They know nothing, are worth even less. Sucks to be them - BIGTIME!

Are you insinuating that even JYS, three times WDC, a great contributor to motorsports, as unworthy and knows nothing?

[Valve Bounce]

Mercedes have no idea about grand prix racing because all their experience has been with the best team in the business - Mclaren.

:D

I think this statement clearly underlines the stupidity of all the posts emanating from the canonised one who communicates with the departed. :rolleyes:

[Saint Devote]

Hakkinen arguably had the better car and a lack of team orders delayed his inaugral titles somewhat.

Alonso - there you have it. He got what he deserved because he fought hard consistently in 05 and 06. Never saw Alonso go on a chump slump when Michelin had inferior tyres and failling to qualify in the top 10 in qualy.


Are you insinuating that even JYS, three times WDC, a great contributor to motorsports, as unworthy and knows nothing?

In 2007 CONTROL TYRES were introduced and boutique tyres - which Alonso had in 2005 and 6 ended. Its funny you mention Alonso because it was the switch from Michelin to Bridgestone that caught Renault out and they could never really catch up.

Alonso did not only slump when he returned, most of the time not being able to get on terms with the car and its inability to handle the Bridgestone because of the related serious weight distribution problems, but in 2009 he barely LOOKED like the Alonso of old except at a couple of races.

Are you implying that JYS can never make a mistake?

[Valve Bounce]

In 2007 CONTROL TYRES were introduced and boutique tyres - which Alonso had in 2005 and 6 ended. Its funny you mention Alonso because it was the switch from Michelin to Bridgestone that caught Renault out and they could never really catch up.

Alonso did not only slump when he returned, most of the time not being able to get on terms with the car and its inability to handle the Bridgestone because of the related serious weight distribution problems, but in 2009 he barely LOOKED like the Alonso of old except at a couple of races.

Are you implying that JYS can never make a mistake?

What would JYS know when compared to the infinite knowledge of the canonised one who consults the Departed?

[garyshell]

If Jenson was afraid of competition he would not have joined Mclaren.

I didn't say Jensen was afraid of competition. I said he was afraid of playing second fiddle to MS at Mercedes (and rightfully so). Those two things are not the same.

Gary

[F1boat]

First - Michael won't return. Second - he is far better driver than Jenson IMO. Jenson would have been right to be scared my MS, if MS was fit to race. But MS is old now. About the 2006, I think that St. Devote maybe right, but I think that Todt and not Luca was right. MS was great in 2006, Alonso has been great as well. Unfortunately, the champion can be only one...

[pino]

Guys I am not going to ask this again : keep personal comments and nonsense posts off here. I am sick and tired of reading and deleting them. Not to mention the ammount of reported posts I've to deal with, because of this :blackeye: :mad:

[Saint Devote]

I didn't say Jensen was afraid of competition. I said he was afraid of playing second fiddle to MS at Mercedes (and rightfully so). Those two things are not the same.

Gary

And you think Rosberg would not be concerned? Drivers like Schumacher and Alonso do not take kindly to competition.

The fact that they have signed Nico is clear that his teammate will either be someone from the current grid - they SHOULD fight to put Kubica in the seat or from GP2.

Any other selection does not make sense. Is Mercedes intending the team to become a marketing spectacle or are they serious about winning?

[Saint Devote]

First - Michael won't return. Second - he is far better driver than Jenson IMO. Jenson would have been right to be scared my MS, if MS was fit to race. But MS is old now. About the 2006, I think that St. Devote maybe right, but I think that Todt and not Luca was right. MS was great in 2006, Alonso has been great as well. Unfortunately, the champion can be only one...

This is a question that can never be satisfactorilt resolved - claiming that one driver is better than another especially when they have never raced against each other.

The first half of Jenson's season, before the reached the cool tracks and the team could then not dial in the car to Jenson's requirements was equal in every measure to any of those consideredthe greatest in the sport.

Especially his qualifying lap at Monte Carlo for pole - that was equal to anything anyone has done.

But since 2007 we have had control tyres and this difference, so significant, cannot be understated - it was this that cuaght out Renault and look how bad Alonso looked.

Was there criticism? Of Renault yes - not Alonso. Double standards in the media.

DId Jenson tighten up during the second half before Interlagos? Much of teh time yes - but you have to understand the pressure and where had been for over EIGHT years.

Its not a matter of being "scared" - its a matter that why stay at Brawn when Mclaren wants you and naybe with the sort of BIG REPUTATION teammate that would undermine you . Rubens knows all about that.

[Saint Devote]

I point to Jenson's 2004 season where he finished third and won pole at Imola - A BAR versus Ferrari? And the SCHUMACHER Ferrari.

Jenson afraid of Schumacher? Forget it!!

[wedge]

I point to Jenson's 2004 season where he finished third and won pole at Imola - A BAR versus Ferrari? And the SCHUMACHER Ferrari.

Jenson afraid of Schumacher? Forget it!!

You do remember that the only reason Bunsen only got pole because of his impotent fuel strategy.

Or how about Imola 2005 where Schumi easily got round Bunsen and yet had trouble passing him for half a dozen laps at the end? Or how about Turkey in 2006 where Alonso held off Schumi at the dying moments on a track much easier to overtake.

And I point to Schumi's wins in a crap Ferrari in 1996 that didn't deserve 3 wins that year.

[Garry Walker]

Who made Schumacher the standard? Hakkinen and Alsono [especially] both whacked Schumacher two years each in a row.
Häkkinen "whacking" Schumacher? Yeah right. As if the Ferrari was as good as McLaren in 1998 and what about Schumacher being injured in 1999?
But lets remember that from 1991 till 1997 (and again from 2000 till 2001) Schumacher only laughed at Häkkinen.


Alonso was NEVER beaten by Schumacher because he was champ in 2005 and 2006 2001? 2002? 2003? 2004? Or are those non-existant in your reality?


.

Especially his qualifying lap at Monte Carlo for pole - that was equal to anything anyone has done.


Beating the inferior Ferrari of Kimi by 0,025 seconds and Rubens by less than 0,2 seconds is suddenly so impressive?


I point to Jenson's 2004 season where he finished third and won pole at Imola - A BAR versus Ferrari? And the SCHUMACHER Ferrari.

Jenson afraid of Schumacher? Forget it!!

Jenson would make a poopoo in his pants if he knew he was racing against Schumi in the same car, something he has done many times on track when they have faced eachother off.
Canada 2005 and Imola 2005 for your prime examples.

You keep going on about that 2005 imola race, but the reality is that the BAR was a superb car that even a loser like Sato was able to take a podium with. MS would have won races in that car, something Button did not manage at all.

[garyshell]

And you think Rosberg would not be concerned? Drivers like Schumacher and Alonso do not take kindly to competition.

The fact that they have signed Nico is clear that his teammate will either be someone from the current grid - they SHOULD fight to put Kubica in the seat or from GP2.

Any other selection does not make sense. Is Mercedes intending the team to become a marketing spectacle or are they serious about winning?

Nico went where he did because McLaren didn't come knocking on his door. Lets see, stay where I am or go to Mercedes even knowing I might be second fiddle to MS? Hmmm what a tough choice.... not.

Gary

[garyshell]

Its not a matter of being "scared" - its a matter that why stay at Brawn when Mclaren wants you and naybe with the sort of BIG REPUTATION teammate that would undermine you . Rubens knows all about that.

Wait a second, doesn't this contradict what you just asked me about Nico? Why would the same not apply to him?

Gary

[Saint Devote]

Wait a second, doesn't this contradict what you just asked me about Nico? Why would the same not apply to him?

Gary

I did apply it to Nico. I said that his joining Mercedes was an indicator to me that Schumacher was NOT going to be there.

Unless of course Mercedes told him nothing because he dod not think of asking - and as a very intelligent individual that would be unlikely.

A third possibility now that you raise the issue is whether he thought that going to Mercedes even if Schumacher joined, would be better for him in a winning car than at Williams.

Take your pick!

[Saint Devote]

You do remember that the only reason Bunsen only got pole because of his impotent fuel strategy.

Or how about Imola 2005 where Schumi easily got round Bunsen and yet had trouble passing him for half a dozen laps at the end? Or how about Turkey in 2006 where Alonso held off Schumi at the dying moments on a track much easier to overtake.

And I point to Schumi's wins in a crap Ferrari in 1996 that didn't deserve 3 wins that year.

I am not the one on this board that is comparing Schumacher - who gets away with anything and is defended regardless of how he does it - I merely pointed out issues to defend JENSON.

On this board there are ONLY those who constantly rubbish Jenson which is not at all about him as a driver but an underlying detractor mentality.

It is very sad to see so many here supposedly F1 enthusiasts only seeking to find fault with the latest champion of our sport - and to an individual that is one of the fairest and best drivers in racing.

[F1boat]

I am not the one on this board that is comparing Schumacher - who gets away with anything and is defended regardless of how he does it - I merely pointed out issues to defend JENSON.

On this board there are ONLY those who constantly rubbish Jenson which is not at all about him as a driver but an underlying detractor mentality.

It is very sad to see so many here supposedly F1 enthusiasts only seeking to find fault with the latest champion of our sport - and to an individual that is one of the fairest and best drivers in racing.

I agree, but St. you too insult other drivers like Kimi :( To me it's very sad that most of the time people bash different drivers, instead of admiring these great sportsmen...

[Saint Devote]

I agree, but St. you too insult other drivers like Kimi :( To me it's very sad that most of the time people bash different drivers, instead of admiring these great sportsmen...

Prove it.

[wedge]

It is very sad to see so many here supposedly F1 enthusiasts only seeking to find fault with the latest champion of our sport - and to an individual that is one of the fairest and best drivers in racing.

Ying and Yang

I find it very sad that mono-visioned fan boys who their driver is oh-so perfect.

One of best drivers?! ROFLMAO!!!

Bunsen has yet to show he's Massa (who grew bigger balls midway last year) let alone Alonso or Hamilton.

[harsha]

@fanboys and haters

get over bunsen's WDC win already

[Valve Bounce]

I don't think anyone here really hates Bunsen - they are just reacting to the gloating and goading from .....(self censored).

[Saint Devote]

You all have your excuses - none of them valid.

[Saint Devote]

And the British Competition Driver of The year at the Autosprt Awards has just been won by Jense!!! :D

Magic season for Jenson and his wonderfully supportive BARMY ARMY!

Congrats Jenson auld sunne - you showed them, and we are just so splendidly happy for you! :s mokin:

[Saint Devote]

Jenson:
It's been a long fight to get here, over the last 10 years of my Formula 1 career - especially over the last year, we've been been through a lot. It was a very tough winter for Brawn and everyone at Honda who was working through the winter.

"It's a year since the Honda news. Coming here to the AUTOSPORT Awards last year was pretty tough. I picked my head up and we worked our asses off. I need to say a massive thank you to everyone at Brawn GP for what we've achieved."

Indeed! And the words of Rudyard Kipling come to mind.

Ross:
The way that Jenson tackled the championship - he's an incredibly honest guy. The second half of the season was tough, Jenson was honest and we absolutely deserve this world championship. He drives beautifully.

And presented by Murray Walker - Jenson receives his second award of the night [and the second time he has won THIS award - back iin 2004] - International Racing Driver of The Year. Well done Jense!

[Valve Bounce]

Rhubarb! Rhubarb! Rhubarb! Rhubarb! Rhubarb! Rhubarb! :D :D :rotflmao:

[Saint Devote]

Something nobody has seen for some time - tonight at Grosvenor House alongside a resplendent Jessica walked a CLEAN SHAVEN Jenson!

Signs of the Mclaren influence? Definitely - no beards allowed please.

Next question is whether usual close-cropped hairstyle that Mclaren likes its drivers to have is on the agenda - or maybe Jenson swopped that for a $1,000,000 off his retainer!!! :-]

Kewl night for the Brit and his family. Nice.

[Valve Bounce]

Something nobody has seen for some time - tonight at Grosvenor House alongside a resplendent Jessica walked a CLEAN SHAVEN Jenson!

Signs of the Mclaren influence? Definitely - no beards allowed please.

Next question is whether usual close-cropped hairstyle that Mclaren likes its drivers to have is on the agenda - or maybe Jenson swopped that for a $1,000,000 off his retainer!!! :-]

Kewl night for the Brit and his family. Nice.

Next we'll see Lewis Hamilton walk by with his head shaved bald. Now THAT is kool!!

[Rollo]

I followed a link from another thread and found:

http://www.itv-f1.com/ImageLibrary/55655_2.jpg

Jensen in a McLaren circa November 1999. It's funny how these thing sort of go around in odd loops.

[Rollo]

You keep going on about that 2005 imola race, but the reality is that the BAR was a superb car that even a loser like Sato was able to take a podium with. MS would have won races in that car, something Button did not manage at all.

Sato's best result for 2005 was an 8th in Hungary. Button managed to coax the BAR to the podium twice that year. In total Button scored 37 points to 1 against Sato.

And incidentally the Honda RA106 which was evolved from the BAR007, Button did win a GP in, also at the Hungarian GP a year later.

[garyshell]

You all have your excuses - none of them valid.


Wow, who anointed you the official arbiter?

Gary

[F1boat]

Next question is whether usual close-cropped hairstyle that Mclaren likes

It's really petty from the bald Ron to chop the hair of his drivers.

[Saint Devote]

I followed a link from another thread and found:

http://www.itv-f1.com/ImageLibrary/55655_2.jpg

Jensen in a McLaren circa November 1999. It's funny how these thing sort of go around in odd loops.

Yes it is. Great picture :) Thanks for pasting it.

And I am sure all longtime Jenson fans feel like myself - just amazed that we now have a Mclaren driver to support.

One gets so used to supporting an excellent driver in rubbish cars for nearly a decade. Its so very frustrating. Even last year, when the Brawn was announced and it went well during testing and even the first couple of races, nobody could be sure it was a great car as it turned out.

But with Jenson now a Mclaren driver, for the first time in a decade in the BEST team - strange feeling even for us!! :D

I suppose I do go on a bit - but its not gloating - its either defending Jenson from his detractors here or celebrating. I guess one has to be a lontime Jense supporter to understand.

[Saint Devote]

You keep going on about that 2005 imola race, but the reality is that the BAR was a superb car that even a loser like Sato was able to take a podium with. MS would have won races in that car, something Button did not manage at all.

Maybe Schumacher would have, maybe not. Reality is that Schumacher was not driving the car and Jenson was and, beat him into second by winning pole position.

Jense also outscored the "greatest ever" from mid-season onwardswhile teammate Sato scored nil.

Jense is good, give him credit.

[Valve Bounce]

I just censored my own post.

[wedge]

Jense is good, give him credit.

Good yes, creme de la creme: non

[ioan]

Rhubarb! Rhubarb! Rhubarb! Rhubarb! Rhubarb! Rhubarb! :D :D :rotflmao:

:D :up:

[ioan]

Good yes, creme de la creme: non

Fully agree.

[ioan]

I just censored my own post.

I bet pino will be forever grateful for this! ;) :)

[Saint Devote]

Good yes, creme de la creme: non

Winning six of the first seven races, that Monaco qualifying lap and not putting a wheel wrong on the way to winnning when Hamilton and Vettel both put it into the barrier at Mirabeau and exitiing Saint Devote? That IS "creme de la creme - very sweet indeed!!

But the description is actually irrelevant - the object is to get the job done [win the world title].

Jenson did :D

[Valve Bounce]

Bore boasting, and gloating. When will this cease? :(

[airshifter]

Winning six of the first seven races, that Monaco qualifying lap and not putting a wheel wrong on the way to winnning when Hamilton and Vettel both put it into the barrier at Mirabeau and exitiing Saint Devote? That IS "creme de la creme - very sweet indeed!!

But the description is actually irrelevant - the object is to get the job done [win the world title].

Jenson did :D



Get a grip. The Brawn had a second to a second and a half over the other cars at the opening GP. The "old man of F1" Rubens was a front runner during this time period at well.

Anyone that disputes that the car played a large role is in la la land. Jenson is a good driver without doubt, and had a great car. This coming year will tell how he stacks up to another WDC when in equal cars.

[PSfan]

Winning six of the first seven races, that Monaco qualifying lap and not putting a wheel wrong on the way to winnning when Hamilton and Vettel both put it into the barrier at Mirabeau and exitiing Saint Devote? That IS "creme de la creme - very sweet indeed!!

But the description is actually irrelevant - the object is to get the job done [win the world title].

Jenson did :D

Holy Frak, are you still stuck repeating this same old song? please buy a cd player, they don't skip as much...

Oh and no, Jenson Didn't... Max Mosley and the FIA did... Did you bother to read the FIA court of appeals document regarding the DD appeals? It stank pretty good. Thanks to the political climate at the time, the FIA practically gifted Button with the championship...

But he almost lost it anyways!!! Yes we heard your explanation how the updates to the car didn't suit Jense, how he was driving for the championship, blah blah blah... what kind of retard driver races to protect his lead with 10 races left?! Had other teams not raised their game and stole points away from the red bulls, or Vettal not lost the points he did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Oh and Rubens didn't think the Brawn's updates had much effect, he attributed his resurgence to him switching his brakes - to the same ones Button was using from the start of the season. Perhaps a revelation that would have came well before Silverstone had they had Brawn began their pre-season testing sooner, or had maybe a little bit of in season testing.

So don't take this as me being unhappy with Jenson winning the championship, I'm actually pleased on some levels. Thanks to the FIA not following their own rules because they wanted to disrupt FOTA, we have a drivers champion that not only is he not one of the top 5 drivers that season, he wasn't even as good as his team-mate.

[Valve Bounce]

Here it is: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80479
"We have a world champion in whom we have so much pride, who fought back against all the odds, who achieved something when some people thought at the beginning of the season it was impossible: Bunsen, the whole country is proud of you," said Brown.

"You are a brilliant ambassador for British sport."

So apart from all other considerations, pro or con, this is a great plus for Bunsen.

Now all we need is for Lewis Hamilton to be proclaimed in the same manner. I forgot to check what the PM said about Lewis when he won his championship.

[leopard]

Those who thought at the beginning of the season it was impossible must have thought that he drove Honda. :)

[christophulus]

Here it is: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80479
"We have a world champion in whom we have so much pride, who fought back against all the odds, who achieved something when some people thought at the beginning of the season it was impossible: Bunsen, the whole country is proud of you," said Brown.

"You are a brilliant ambassador for British sport."

So apart from all other considerations, pro or con, this is a great plus for Bunsen.

Now all we need is for Lewis Hamilton to be proclaimed in the same manner. I forgot to check what the PM said about Lewis when he won his championship.

Oh dear. Now Button's going to have a shocker next year.. after all, this is the same Gordon Brown who praised the England cricket team after the Ashes - who then went on to get humiliated in the ODI series. And Andy Murray in the Wimbledon semi-final, just before he got knocked out.

The guy's cursed! :p

[Saint Devote]

Bore boasting, and gloating. When will this cease? :(

Its Newtonian - 90% of the time you and all the others START by posting anti-Button messages, criticizing and finding fault - regardless that you would praise another driver for the same thing.

So, I react by defending Button and pointing out his achievements this past year and previously as required.

Stop being such detractors and this can stop.

[Valve Bounce]

Hamilton was heavily critisized on here last year, (before you were a member of the forum) ...................

Yes! and it was a great time. Now we have to put up with all this gloating. :(
I think I'm going to cheer for Bunsen from now on. That will be my antidote to the gloating. :D

[F1boat]

or Vettal not lost the points he did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.


Not Jenson's problem. Sorry.

[AndyL]

Holy Frak, are you still stuck repeating this same old song? please buy a cd player, they don't skip as much...

Oh and no, Jenson Didn't... Max Mosley and the FIA did... Did you bother to read the FIA court of appeals document regarding the DD appeals? It stank pretty good. Thanks to the political climate at the time, the FIA practically gifted Button with the championship...

But he almost lost it anyways!!! Yes we heard your explanation how the updates to the car didn't suit Jense, how he was driving for the championship, blah blah blah... what kind of retard driver races to protect his lead with 10 races left?! Had other teams not raised their game and stole points away from the red bulls, or Vettal not lost the points he did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Yes, well done, referring to Jenson as a retard is sure to get Saint Devote to drop the matter :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Bore boasting, and gloating. When will this cease? :(

Obviously never.

[ioan]

Oh and no, Jenson Didn't... Max Mosley and the FIA did... Did you bother to read the FIA court of appeals document regarding the DD appeals? It stank pretty good. Thanks to the political climate at the time, the FIA practically gifted Button with the championship...

Exactly.

[ioan]

I'm getting abit bored of the same post over and over, we know Jenson is the 2009 WDC! I have never heard anyone on this forum gloat quite as much as this over their preferred driver and its wearing abit thin now.

Now you are starting to understand why some of us had enough of it quite some time ago. ;)

[ioan]

... but saying "he's the WDC" in response to every arguement just gets you nowhere.

I somewhat understand SD's need to post this again and again, after all that's the only positive thing about Button, supposing that one doesn't take into account some FIA political moves. ;)

[Daniel]

Indeed, if all the JB fans have as much passion as SD, then they make the tifosi look like an inferior red brigade... :p :)

I did back SD up in the days after the WDC was won against some of the bashers on here, but I'm starting to get bored with the constant daily reminder of who won the 2009 WDC. There are if's and but's with every champion, but I've never seen this much gloating. I suppose its my own fault for responding really. :arrows: :)

PS the DD was a well researched loophole which Brawn should get credit for IMO.
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/profile.php?do=editlist

[ArrowsFA1]

...we have a drivers champion that not only is he not one of the top 5 drivers that season, he wasn't even as good as his team-mate.
By what measure was Rubens better than his team-mate in the same car in 2009? Points? Race wins? Pole positions? Fastest laps?

[ioan]

By what measure was Rubens better than his team-mate in the same car in 2009? Points? Race wins? Pole positions? Fastest laps?

And since when do statistics mean something to you?! :rolleyes:

You kept denigrating MS achievements and telling everyone that numbers men nothing, and now you are doing a 180 degree turnaround and trying to support your favorite using statistics?!

You make me laugh.

[Valve Bounce]

I think pino is going to come on soon and give some of the holiday makers quite a nice holiday. :(

[PSfan]

or Vettal not lost the points he did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Not Jenson's problem. Sorry.

My point was, had Vettel not had his bad luck, it would have been Jenson's problem.


Yes, well done, referring to Jenson as a retard is sure to get Saint Devote to drop the matter :rolleyes:

He's only a retard if you subscribe to ST. D's theory that Jenson started to take it easy to protect his championship lead, and thats why there was a lack of results in the final 10 races...

my theory is that the other teams caught up, Rubens was the better driver of the 2 and was able to show it once he got his brakes worked out and Jenson still raced as hard as he could but where he finished was as good as it got... in the final 10 races that is...

So no, I don't even think he's a retard :p :

[PSfan]

By what measure was Rubens better than his team-mate in the same car in 2009? Points? Race wins? Pole positions? Fastest laps?

Well, since they didn't really have the same car until Rubens switched to the same brakes as Button, I suppose Rubens has 2 wins to Jenson's 0, 41 points to 34... and I am to lazy to check up the fastest laps and poles... :cheese:

[ArrowsFA1]

You make me laugh.
Happy to oblige :D

You kept denigrating MS achievements and telling everyone that numbers men nothing, and now you are doing a 180 degree turnaround and trying to support your favorite using statistics?!
I've never said numbers mean nothing, and Button is not my favourite. I have said that statistics are like bikinis because they reveal a lot, but not everything.

That applies equally to MS and Button, and certainly the 2009 WDC standings do not tell the full story. However, when someone claims "we have a drivers champion that not only is he not one of the top 5 drivers that season, he wasn't even as good as his team-mate", then I think it's only reasonable to ask "by what measure?"

If the answer to that question is not points, race wins, pole positions or fastest laps, then what is it?

[Valve Bounce]

Look!! we can argue in all directions whether Bunsen is good, great or simply so so, but at the end of the day, he won the championship. End of Story. Now can we all just leave it at that before that fellow comes back, PLEASE?. :(

[ArrowsFA1]

Look!! we can argue in all directions whether Bunsen is good, great or simply so so, but at the end of the day, he won the championship.
:up: :s mokin:

[Robinho]

Well, since they didn't really have the same car until Rubens switched to the same brakes as Button, I suppose Rubens has 2 wins to Jenson's 0, 41 points to 34... and I am to lazy to check up the fastest laps and poles... :cheese:

nit picking, but, i believe the brake issue was that they did have the same brakes as each other from the start of the season, but changed the brake materials mid season, which suited Rubens more than Jenson (arguably the original materials would have suited Jenson more) due to the way they use their brakes slightly differently.

if you use that arguement, then Jenson performed better when the car suited him and Rubens better when the car was better for him - which is far too logical to make any headlines - and they always had the same car.

[ioan]

Look!! we can argue in all directions whether Bunsen is good, great or simply so so, but at the end of the day, he won the championship. End of Story. Now can we all just leave it at that before that fellow comes back, PLEASE?. :(

Agree. Let's wait until next season's first race and see what he is capable. I have a feeling he will give us enough ammunition to keep SD glued to his keyboard! :D ;)

[F1boat]

My point was, had Vettel not had his bad luck, it would have been Jenson's problem.


IMO it is not bad luck. Vettel made many mistakes. He made a mistake in Oz, was penalized for it in Malaysia, made a mistake in Turkey, made a mistake in Monte Carlo. Not sure about Marina Bay, whether it was him or the car.
One can also say that the Red Bull was less reliable than the Brawn, but it was faster in the 2nd part of the season, so it is part of the game. To me Jenson is the deserving champion of 2009, just like Alonso was in 2005.

[Valve Bounce]

IMO it is not bad luck. Vettel made many mistakes. He made a mistake in Oz, was penalized for it in Malaysia, made a mistake in Turkey, made a mistake in Monte Carlo. Not sure about Marina Bay, whether it was him or the car.
One can also say that the Red Bull was less reliable than the Brawn, but it was faster in the 2nd part of the season, so it is part of the game. To me Jenson is the deserving champion of 2009, just like Alonso was in 2005.

Yes! Yes! YES! YES! YES! YES!.

Now can we move on while we still can, PLEASE?

[ioan]

IMO it is not bad luck. Vettel made many mistakes. He made a mistake in Oz, was penalized for it in Malaysia, made a mistake in Turkey, made a mistake in Monte Carlo. Not sure about Marina Bay, whether it was him or the car.
One can also say that the Red Bull was less reliable than the Brawn, but it was faster in the 2nd part of the season, so it is part of the game. To me Jenson is the deserving champion of 2009, just like Alonso was in 2005.

Also having the Renault engines break was Vettel's mistake! Great logic there, NOT! LOL!

[F1boat]

Also having the Renault engines break was Vettel's mistake! Great logic there, NOT! LOL!

He made mistakes of his own. He retired twice because of the Renault engines, but in reality that cost him little points as he was already in low-scoring positions in Valencia and Hungary. He lost a lot more in Australia and Monte Carlo. Like 11 points.
And also, as I said, sometimes you have a faster car, but it is a bit more fragile. IMO Red Bull compromised the reliability a bit to gain pace. Fair play, but sometimes this happens. It's part of the game. It happened to Kimi in 2005 as well. This doesn't make the championships of Alonso and Jenson any less deserved.

[F1boat]

Yes! Yes! YES! YES! YES! YES!.

Now can we move on while we still can, PLEASE?

Too late LOL.

[PSfan]

PS the DD was a well researched loophole which Brawn should get credit for IMO.

This will be one of those subjects we will have to agree to disagree. I've read both the tech regs, and the court of appeals ruling to be able to say that the only loophole brawn should be credited with, is the loophole where the FIA are incapable of following its own regs.

Though I will give him credit for taking advantage of the FIA/FOTA animosity (Something I doubt could have happened if Honda still was associated with the team.)

[PSfan]

nit picking, but, i believe the brake issue was that they did have the same brakes as each other from the start of the season, but changed the brake materials mid season, which suited Rubens more than Jenson (arguably the original materials would have suited Jenson more) due to the way they use their brakes slightly differently.

Nope, I believe since Joining Honda/Brawn from Ferrari, Rubens has preferred a different brake supplier then Jenson, and switched to the same supplier Jenson preferred. I heard it during a pre or post race interview from Rubens himself after tripping over some monday morning F1 coverage on my XM sat radio. However I I can understand your confusion because when researching this subject the I tripped over a BBC article that I think implied that Brawn switched brakes on both cars, and not just Rubens switching over to the same ones Button was using.


if you use that arguement, then Jenson performed better when the car suited him and Rubens better when the car was better for him - which is far too logical to make any headlines - and they always had the same car.

And again no... Button was running Brembo Brakes, While Rebens started the season with his Hitco brakes and switching to Brembo at Silverstone So no, they didn't always have the same car...

(I've read that Ruben's also reveals that in a pre-race interview with Peter Windsor... We'll be able to catch that interview soon as Speedtv is replaying the 2009 season on Mondays at 12:00 pm est )

[ArrowsFA1]

I've read that Ruben's also reveals that in a pre-race interview with Peter Windsor...
Peter does love writing about Brembo and Hitco for some reason, and not just in connection with Brawn :crazy: :p

[JBAFCB]

There should be no argument whatsoever if Jenson is a worthy champion

He won more races than anyone else
Secured more pole positions than anyone else
Scored points in all but one of the 17 races (when he was taken out by a rookie)
& did more overtaking moves than the rest of the field put together

& top it all he should be sports personality of the year as well this Sunday

End of

[PSfan]

Peter does love writing about Brembo and Hitco for some reason, and not just in connection with Brawn :crazy: :p

Yah, and apparently so does some guy on 5 live, or whomever Serious/XM get their F1 feed from.

[PSfan]

There should be no argument whatsoever if Jenson is a worthy champion


He won more races than anyone else

Because of an FIA decision and not actual drivers skill
And I also think Vettel's first win should be worth 3 because his car at the time conformed to the 2009 tech regs. :p :


Secured more pole positions than anyone else

So what kind of poles we are talking about, fantasy poles, pole dancers, polish women?

Cause it certainly wasn't pole positions during the 2009 F1 championship. Hamilton gets that distinction with 5 to Buttons 4...


Scored points in all but one of the 17 races (when he was taken out by a rookie)

This one of those damning by praise stats? 4 more points finishes the Vettel, and still only finished 11 points ahead... worthy champion? I think not :cheese:


& did more overtaking moves than the rest of the field put together

Now that stat would be difficult to prove or disprove... So I aint touchin it... lifes way to short...


& top it all he should be sports personality of the year as well this Sunday

Really? not with the ladies, that honor should go to Tiger Woods...
I kid, I kid...

Thats a regional award, and while I'm not a big Nascar fan, Johnson's 5th championship in a row is a much bigger achievement then Buttons coasting threw the final 10 races and winning a championship thanks to politics...
Each his own...


End of

or at least so you hoped....

[F1boat]

FIA made the right decision to respect the innovation of the Brawn GP Formula One team. Also, the FIA is the organization which decides what is the correct interpretation of the rules, so, with approving the design of Brawn GP, Williams F1 and Toyota, it is clear that Brawn had no illegal advantage. They simply had the best car in the first part of the season, although not by a huge margin, as some races of the Red Bull were compromised - IMO because of the inability of their lead driver to overtake. For the final 10 races of the season, the Brawn was not the best car at the grid except in Monza in which Jenson scored a podium. In the other races he was sensible enough to use his mammoth championship lead and to score points regularly, instead of other drivers who in similar circumstances kissed the walls.
About the victories not showing driver's skill, Jenson had a teammate and also there were 5 more drivers with DD and the Red Bull was also competitive right from the start. Yes, the Brawn was the best car, but many champions had the best cars and they needed it to win. For me Button showed great skill in the first part of the season with some courageous movements like the overtaking of Fernando Alonso in Malaysia /see how Raikkonen striggled against the Spaniard, and the Ferrari was superior to the Renault as well/ and against Lewis Hamilton in Bahrain /see how your favorite Sebastian struggled against him/.
For me to say that Jenson has no skill is simply trolling. There is no such thing as undeserving F1 champion.

[JBAFCB]

PSFan get over it. At the end of the day Toyota and Williams had the double-diffusers from the start and what did they do? Honda/Brawn just designed a quicker car than anyone else

He won 6 of the first 7 races, only 2 other drivers have ever done that Michael Schumacher and Jim Clark and of course they're really s*it aren't they?!

Funny how no one really kept asking if Lewis was a worthy champion after his win last year when he was far more fortunate. If he hadn't have rained as hard as it did on that last lap Glock would have been able to go quick enough to stay ahead

Really don't understand why so many people have such a vendetta against Jenson, he's never had the equipment to do well in his whole F1 career, when he finally does he wins the championship and then people turn round and say he's not worthy

W*nkers

[F1boat]

PSFan get over it. At the end of the day Toyota and Williams had the double-diffusers from the start and what did they do? Honda/Brawn just designed a quicker car than anyone else

He won 6 of the first 7 races, only 2 other drivers have ever done that Michael Schumacher and Jim Clark and of course they're really s*it aren't they?!

Funny how no one really kept asking if Lewis was a worthy champion after his win last year when he was far more fortunate. If he hadn't have rained as hard as it did on that last lap Glock would have been able to go quick enough to stay ahead

Really don't understand why so many people have such a vendetta against Jenson, he's never had the equipment to do well in his whole F1 career, when he finally does he wins the championship and then people turn round and say he's not worthy

W*nkers

I agree with everything, although I might add that Nigel Mansell also had a tremendous start in 1992. But you are right - Button had a great car for HALF a season and did what was required from him. I also find difficult to understand why so many people hate him.

[ArrowsFA1]

Given the fact that JB is World Champion, and has signed for McLaren, perhaps of more interest than being "worthy" or not is how things will work out in 2010.

Nick Fry had this to say on the subject:


Q. How do you see the battle between Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button at McLaren unfolding?
NF: I think it's going to be fascinating. I've had some nice chats with Jenson over the last few days at social functions and contrary to what people might think there's no hard feelings at all. We wish him all the best. We were disappointed that he left our team but we've got a good relationship.
I think Jenson's got a difficult task ahead of him. It's nothing to do with whether he's got the talent - which I think he has - it's all to do with going into a team where Lewis has been for a long time and knows the team very well.
In my experience in Formula 1, for a new driver to come into any team takes months or even most of the first season to really understand the lay of the land. That's quite difficult to do. Jenson's a brave lad taking that on. He's got the raw skill to do it, but in terms of learning how the team works, he's going to have to accelerate himself up the line very quickly.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80511

[wedge]

There should be no argument whatsoever if Jenson is a worthy champion

He won more races than anyone else
Secured more pole positions than anyone else
Scored points in all but one of the 17 races (when he was taken out by a rookie)
& did more overtaking moves than the rest of the field put together

& top it all he should be sports personality of the year as well this Sunday

End of

Unfortunately being WDC does not necessarily make you one of the best - make that outstanding drivers on the grid.


Given the fact that JB is World Champion, and has signed for McLaren, perhaps of more interest than being "worthy" or not is how things will work out in 2010.

Nick Fry had this to say on the subject:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80511

Fry's arse licking is very sickening. Just how many top drivers in F1 has he worked with? I'd be more interested in Martin Whitmarsh's opinions on Bunsen's McLaren career/talents.

[Daniel]

Unfortunately being WDC does not necessarily make you one of the best - make that outstanding drivers on the grid.



Fry's arse licking is very sickening. Just how many top drivers in F1 has he worked with? I'd be more interested in Martin Whitmarsh's opinions on Bunsen's McLaren career/talents.
But in this day and age no one really says what they actually think. Whitmarsh would just give his corporate spiel

[ArrowsFA1]

I'd be more interested in Martin Whitmarsh's opinions on Bunsen's McLaren career/talents.

Lewis and Jenson are both world champions, they know what it takes to win, and I'm sure they'll both be very motivated to push each other to deliver even greater results...
More here - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80361

[wedge]

More here - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80361

I meant post-McLaren or even nearing the end of McLaren his drive (handbags at dawn) when there's no reason to BS and make your team/driver look good infront of the press.

[wedge]

But in this day and age no one really says what they actually think. Whitmarsh would just give his corporate spiel

Read between the lines and you get the message. Eg. Kovy was sh** this year.

[Daniel]

Read between the lines and you get the message. Eg. Kovy was sh** this year.
Well yes, but he's not going to slag off a driver who's on his way in.

[ioan]

This will be one of those subjects we will have to agree to disagree. I've read both the tech regs, and the court of appeals ruling to be able to say that the only loophole brawn should be credited with, is the loophole where the FIA are incapable of following its own regs.

The FIA CoA decision was a joke in it's own right. It was enough to read it to see how hard the FIA was trying to create a loophole for Brawn, Williams and Toyota after they denied the same interpretation to Renault and RBR.

[ioan]

Fry's arse licking is very sickening. Just how many top drivers in F1 has he worked with?

Fully agree. Fry is a clown.

[F1boat]

I find to be fascinating that some armchair experts know F1 better than drivers, team managers and the FIA.

[Valve Bounce]

I find to be fascinating that some armchair experts know F1 better than drivers, team managers and the FIA.

Absolutely!! If it were not so, this forum would be deadly quiet and bereft of opposing views and arguments. It's what makes the discussion what it is. :up:

[555-04Q2]

I find to be fascinating that some armchair experts know F1 better than drivers, team managers and the FIA.

Sometimes, in business and general facets of life, it takes an outsider to reveal the obvious. I see it all the time.

[wedge]

I find to be fascinating that some armchair experts know F1 better than drivers, team managers and the FIA.

Of course we do.

Who enjoys F1 run by Max & Bernie whilst ruining motorsport, TC, electornic aids, ugly aero aids, racing on Tilke-dromes, etc etc?

[ioan]

I find to be fascinating that some armchair experts know F1 better than drivers, team managers and the FIA.

You see, you learn something new every day.
I always knew that out there there are people more intelligent than F1 drivers, team managers and the FIA.

[jens]

I'm a bit disappointed in Saint Devote now - why have his obligatory daily posts been missing in this thread in the last couple of days? :)

[wedge]

Hmmm, seems like Brawn/Button had their doubts....



http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8428889.stm

"He wanted to prove it was him as well as the car that won the championship," Brawn told BBC Radio 5 live.

"I don't think Jenson left because of money; the proposals we made to Jenson were very good," added Brawn.

"There was a feeling that he somehow lucked into this championship and that was very unfair.

"Now, he's going to face Lewis Hamilton and that's a fascinating match-up.

"Formula 1 is a complex matter because the ratio between the car and the driver can vary.

"A top-level driver needs the equivalent. There is a huge war to try and improve the cars and I think Jenson wants to prove he can do it elsewhere."

[Saint Devote]

I'm a bit disappointed in Saint Devote now - why have his obligatory daily posts been missing in this thread in the last couple of days? :)

I took sympathy on the constant pummeling I have had to meet out here defending the honour of Jense MBE :s mokin:

[Saint Devote]

Unfortunately being WDC does not necessarily make you one of the best - make that outstanding drivers on the grid.

I have no idea how you define outstanding - Jenson's pole lap and win at Monte Carlo was outstanding. His pole position lap at Catalunya was outstanding - Red Bull had already begun to celebrate and the commentators were declaring that Jense would have to drive an incredible third sector - he did.

There is a saying on Wall street - rather be lucky than good - the driver that wins the title IS the best that year. Kimi Raikonnen - bless his heart - said that a few weeks ago DEFENDING Jenson.

Button is good and this year he was also lucky - he won the championship. And unless I am mistaken, that IS the goal of each driver each season, right?

Of course right!

Now its time to prepare to beat everyone again and especially his teammate, Lewis.

Such a pity Kimi will not be able to race in a Ferrari at Spa in 2010. The rules are far too rigid.

[Valve Bounce]

I'm a bit disappointed in Saint Devote now - why have his obligatory daily posts been missing in this thread in the last couple of days? :)

Please don't feed the Trolls. :(

[wedge]

Button is good and this year he was also lucky - he won the championship. And unless I am mistaken, that IS the goal of each driver each season, right?

Of course right!

There seemed to be an element of having to luck his way to WDC when he didn't have the car eg. Valencia, Japan, Bahrain, Nurburgring

[Robinho]

apparently, as outlined kindly by Tamburello and Ioan, the greatest driver can only be judged by results, therefore Jenson Button was the greatest driver last year

[Saint Devote]

There seemed to be an element of having to luck his way to WDC when he didn't have the car eg. Valencia, Japan, Bahrain, Nurburgring

Jackie Stewart likes to say that drivers make their own luck. Jenson certainly did.

[Valve Bounce]

apparently, as outlined kindly by Tamburello and Ioan, the greatest driver can only be judged by results, therefore Jenson Button was the greatest driver last year

One really has to watch the tape of Rosemeyer's races to fully understand and appreciate what the word "greatest" really means.

[F1boat]

Jackie Stewart likes to say that drivers make their own luck. Jenson certainly did.

Bahrain was a stunning drive. I dunno what wedge is talking about.

[ioan]

One really has to watch the tape of Rosemeyer's races to fully understand and appreciate what the word "greatest" really means.

Amen to that. There is nothing special about any of Button's drives up to date.

[Saint Devote]

Amen to that. There is nothing special about any of Button's drives up to date.

Well of course you will say that - you believe that there has only ever been ONE driver of worth and your resentment of Jenson Button has always been evident. You are so easy to read.

[wedge]

Bahrain was a stunning drive. I dunno what wedge is talking about.

Button was lucky Toyota had monkeys working on pit wall and messed Trulli's chance for their first win.


Jackie Stewart likes to say that drivers make their own luck. Jenson certainly did.

So Jenson appointed the monkeys that day in Bahrain?

[Saint Devote]

Bahrain was a stunning drive. I dunno what wedge is talking about.

Does he? :D

It is common agreement if one reads the specialist press that Jenson's advantage ended in Bahrain. From that time on it was about driving the quick lap at the right moment and driver and team tactics.

It was Ross Brawn who said that Jenson's Monte Carlo weekend was like being with Schumacher all over again. His pole position winning lap left the whole pitlane stunned and Rubens afterwards STATED that he was just amazed at it.

Unfortunately, the Jenson detractors have an agenda - they hate Jenson and cannot get their minds around that he is the WORLD CHAMPION. It reminds me of the detractors of one of the other of the three drivers that I have ever supported, the great and much loved, "Il Leone" - Nigel Mansell :D

To this day, the Nigel haters grind their teeth just hearing his name!!! :s mokin:

[Saint Devote]

Button was lucky Toyota had monkeys working on pit wall and messed Trulli's chance for their first win.

So Jenson appointed the monkeys that day in Bahrain?

Ifs and buts could change history.

This is formula one and it is what it is. If Glock HAD changed tyres and had not spun, then Hamilton would not have become world champion in the past 1080 meters. Lucky indeed.

See? It means nothing. Reality remains: Hamilton became world champion and Jenson became world champion and Jense did it far better than either Raikkonen or Hamilton.

[Valve Bounce]

Unfortunately, the Jenson detractors have an agenda - they hate Jenson and cannot get their minds around that he is the WORLD CHAMPION. It reminds me of the detractors of one of the other of the three drivers that I have ever supported, the great and much loved, "Il Leone" - Nigel Mansell :D



Nobody here hates Bunsen. They just don't like seeing the same rehash of your Bunsen worship over, and over, and over. :(

[airshifter]

Ifs and buts could change history.

This is formula one and it is what it is. If Glock HAD changed tyres and had not spun, then Hamilton would not have become world champion in the past 1080 meters. Lucky indeed.

See? It means nothing. Reality remains: Hamilton became world champion and Jenson became world champion and Jense did it far better than either Raikkonen or Hamilton.

You frequently talk out of both sides of your mouth.

Based on your current position regarding Jenson, both Lewis and Kimi were the greatest drivers of the year when they won their respective WDC titles. And in both of those years, based on your disregard for the car factor, Jenson was simply an inferior driver.

But for most of us we consider the other factors, especially the car. Though I've been a Kimi supporter since his start in F1, he got lucky when Lewis choked and became a WDC. And though I was never a huge fan of Lewis like some, he rightly won his WDC after defeating Massa in cars that were fairly equal when considered on the whole season basis.

Yet I don't think Kimi, Lewis, or Jenson won in such form that any of them could be said to be without doubt the best drivers of those seasons. All of them were excellent drivers, in excellent cars, who also managed a bit of good fortune that helped them win a title.

So please, quit acting as if all of us hate Jenson for judging him in the same fashion that we use to rate other drivers. I personally don't hate or even strongly dislike any of the drivers, nor would I waste my time to be a "detractor". But we are all entitled to our opinions.

[Valve Bounce]

You frequently talk out of both sides of your mouth.

Based on your current position regarding Jenson, both Lewis and Kimi were the greatest drivers of the year when they won their respective WDC titles. And in both of those years, based on your disregard for the car factor, Jenson was simply an inferior driver.

But for most of us we consider the other factors, especially the car. Though I've been a Kimi supporter since his start in F1, he got lucky when Lewis choked and became a WDC. And though I was never a huge fan of Lewis like some, he rightly won his WDC after defeating Massa in cars that were fairly equal when considered on the whole season basis.

Yet I don't think Kimi, Lewis, or Jenson won in such form that any of them could be said to be without doubt the best drivers of those seasons. All of them were excellent drivers, in excellent cars, who also managed a bit of good fortune that helped them win a title.

So please, quit acting as if all of us hate Jenson for judging him in the same fashion that we use to rate other drivers. I personally don't hate or even strongly dislike any of the drivers, nor would I waste my time to be a "detractor". But we are all entitled to our opinions.

+1 :up:

[F1boat]

Does he? :D

It is common agreement if one reads the specialist press that Jenson's advantage ended in Bahrain. From that time on it was about driving the quick lap at the right moment and driver and team tactics.



The overtaking against Lewis was the crucial part of the Bahrain GP. Jenson did it and Vettel couldn't, despite that IMO the RBR was a faster car than the Brawn GP in that day /Horner said so as well/. About the Toyota, after the fuel loads were revealed it was clear that they have no chance.

[ioan]

Well of course you will say that ...

Yep, I will always say it as it is.

[ioan]

Nobody here hates Bunsen. They just don't like seeing the same rehash of your Bunsen worship over, and over, and over. :(

Excellent post! It sums it :up: very well!

[Robinho]

Amen to that. There is nothing special about any of Button's drives up to date.

Woah there - either "Greatest" means the one who had the best results or it doesn't? by your definition, Button was the Greatest driver last season. you simply cannot have it both ways, espoecially not if you abhor hypocrisy as much as you say you do.

i'd also argue that several of his drives last year were special, albeit a few were a bit ropey too. i think Malaysia, Monaco and Turkey all count as special IMO

BTW i also agree that most people are sick of the Button bandwagon St Devote seems intent on running everyone down with - i am a big fan of his, but i've largely kept my head down as St turns everyone off.

[ioan]

Woah there - either "Greatest" means the one who had the best results or it doesn't? by your definition, Button was the Greatest driver last season. you simply cannot have it both ways, espoecially not if you abhor hypocrisy as much as you say you do.


That's not my definition as I'm not restricting my definition to one specific year or race like you do.

You Button lover boys are capable to make him the greatest F1 driver on 21st July at 15:45 just to make him the greatest.

When I talk about the greatest I talk about the one who dominated F1 in general not at a time I cherry pick to suit a driver worth little.

I hope you can grasp these simple concepts.

[Robinho]

That's not my definition as I'm not restricting my definition to one specific year or race like you do.

You Button lover boys are capable to make him the greatest F1 driver on 21st July at 15:45 just to make him the greatest.

When I talk about the greatest I talk about the one who dominated F1 in general not at a time I cherry pick to suit a driver worth little.

I hope you can grasp these simple concepts.

twist and turn, insult and trash talk, again and again.

i'm not anyones "lover boy", as well you know, i was just seeing if you were willing to apply the same logic/rationale to a different discussion, and as usual you twist your way out. The word means the same wether applying to a day, week, month or all time. i don't agree with your definition, but i was only interested if you'd use it in another context, unsurprisingly you won't.

i don't think Jenson is the greatest personally, i think he's one of the best of the current generation of drivers, opinion borne out by the fact that he did win the title - and these results are the only things that count do they not, not how "special" the drives were?

as for next year, i think he'll be more of a test for Lewis than most think, but even i will be surprised, and also very happy, if he manages to come out on top

[wedge]

i'd also argue that several of his drives last year were special, albeit a few were a bit ropey too. i think Malaysia, Monaco and Turkey all count as special IMO.

I wouldn't say Malaysia was particularly special. He had the better fuel strategy so it was inevitable Button was going to pit pass a load of cars at the pit window.

Turkey was a gifted win no thanks to Vettel's first lap error and then on 3-stopper would never work because you only have to look at Hamilton last year. Vettel had a funny day - impotent behind Button and yet was almost willing to take out Webber, trying to make a point at how crap RBR's race strategies were at that point in the season.

Monaco - yes. Brazil was special and to some extent Singapore as well because he crucially beat Rubens mid-race.

[wedge]

That's not my definition as I'm not restricting my definition to one specific year or race like you do.

You Button lover boys are capable to make him the greatest F1 driver on 21st July at 15:45 just to make him the greatest.

When I talk about the greatest I talk about the one who dominated F1 in general not at a time I cherry pick to suit a driver worth little.

I hope you can grasp these simple concepts.

Sadly (IMHO), too many British fans love a British champ regardless how good they are.

Goes to show how crap at sports we are year in year out.

[ioan]

twist and turn, insult and trash talk, again and again.

Take a look at your previous post before judging me, you started the insults and trash talk, so be a man and take it on the chin without whining.

[ioan]

Sadly (IMHO), too many British fans love a British champ regardless how good they are.

Goes to show how crap at sports we are year in year out.

I have nothing against them having whatever sentiments they wish towards the British sportsmen/women but I think that all this public jerking is a bit too much.
Funnily enough there was less of this collective love affair last season when Hamilton won the championship and he was a worthy champion.

[Saint Devote]

Yep, I will always say it as it is.

As it is in your mind - yes I agree.

[Saint Devote]

Nobody here hates Bunsen. They just don't like seeing the same rehash of your Bunsen worship over, and over, and over. :(

As long as people attack Jenson so I will defend him. If the attacks stop then there is no reason to defend.

[Saint Devote]

You frequently talk out of both sides of your mouth.

Based on your current position regarding Jenson, both Lewis and Kimi were the greatest drivers of the year when they won their respective WDC titles. And in both of those years, based on your disregard for the car factor, Jenson was simply an inferior driver.

But for most of us we consider the other factors, especially the car. Though I've been a Kimi supporter since his start in F1, he got lucky when Lewis choked and became a WDC. And though I was never a huge fan of Lewis like some, he rightly won his WDC after defeating Massa in cars that were fairly equal when considered on the whole season basis.

Yet I don't think Kimi, Lewis, or Jenson won in such form that any of them could be said to be without doubt the best drivers of those seasons. All of them were excellent drivers, in excellent cars, who also managed a bit of good fortune that helped them win a title.

So please, quit acting as if all of us hate Jenson for judging him in the same fashion that we use to rate other drivers. I personally don't hate or even strongly dislike any of the drivers, nor would I waste my time to be a "detractor". But we are all entitled to our opinions.

I am not talking about the greatest - I do not like that term. I am stating who the BEST driver was, and in a championship year the driver that puts it together the best and wins the title has done the best.

It does not matter how he is RATED. The championship is not about the best driver it is about who can win the title - doing his job the best.

There is a difference when people state a case compared to declaring Jenson to be "unworthy" and other rubbish.

Just look how there was no criticism that Hamilton crashed during qualifying in Monte Carlo and then again on the last lap at Monza costing Mclaren points and a podium. Instead Jenson pulled out a magnificent pole winning lap that stopped Red Bull in their tracks, had Rubens amazed and Ross saying that it felt like the Schumacher days. The commentators on Speed did not know WHAT to say and thenmade excuses why KIMI did not take pole. Thats what I mean.

If Jenson had done the same as Lewis then there would have been all manner of attack and "no surprise" sighs and comment.

And leading this continuing Hamilton lovefest are not people here but at Autosport magazine and F1 Racing - and we all know why in this politically correct world.

[wedge]

Just look how there was no criticism that Hamilton crashed during qualifying in Monte Carlo and then again on the last lap at Monza costing Mclaren points and a podium. Instead Jenson pulled out a magnificent pole winning lap that stopped Red Bull in their tracks, had Rubens amazed and Ross saying that it felt like the Schumacher days. The commentators on Speed did not know WHAT to say and thenmade excuses why KIMI did not take pole. Thats what I mean.

2008 Japanese GP reaction:

http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130007

Difference between 2009 & 08 is that Lewis had little to lose in 2009 because he wasn't fighting for WDC which is why his errors have been somewhat excusable.

If Lewis repeated this years Italian GP error in a WDC fighting season he will justifiably lambasted.

[Valve Bounce]

As long as people attack Jenson so I will defend him. If the attacks stop then there is no reason to defend.

Nobody is attacking Bunsen. They are just sick of your rehashing your Bunsen worship, and they are having a go at you. In fact, most of them are having a lot of fun just baiting you.

[Valve Bounce]

I am not talking about the greatest - I do not like that term. I am stating who the BEST driver was, and in a championship year the driver that puts it together the best and wins the title has done the best.



I would even go on record to say:I think Bunsen performed the best this year, and with his achievement of winning the WDC, I can't understand how anyone could possibly argue against that."

But what impressed me most of all was when the tyres were not working because of the cold, and he tried his darndest to get some heat into them so that he could hang on and just try his best to score some points.

But I tell you what, I'm not going to keep posting this indefinitely just because someone here disagrees or says otherwise; that's their opinion and they are entitled to it.

[ioan]

Nobody is attacking Bunsen. They are just sick of your rehashing your Bunsen worship, and they are having a go at you. In fact, most of them are having a lot of fun just baiting you.

Fully agree! It's really funny! :D

[wedge]

Fully agree! It's really funny! :D

Dunno what you're laughing at


Nobody is attacking Bunsen. They are just sick of your rehashing your Bunsen worship, and they are having a go at you. In fact, most of them are having a lot of fun just baiting you.

Not as fun as seeing Ioan getting himself banned :D

[jens]

A question has been asked here: Button's best drive? Well, I personally consider Monaco as probably his most impressive win. Yes, he had the best car there too, but Monaco is always a bit special case and demands an excellent and flawless performance from a driver to come out on top in any case. Also he managed to save his soft tyres well as opposed to for instance Barrichello and Vettel. Bahrain wasn't that special - the win was achieved more thanks to Brawn's brilliant strategy rather than Button's own impressive pace.

[Valve Bounce]

A question has been asked here: Button's best drive? Well, I personally consider Monaco as probably his most impressive win. Yes, he had the best car there too, but Monaco is always a bit special case and demands an excellent and flawless performance from a driver to come out on top in any case. Also he managed to save his soft tyres well as opposed to for instance Barrichello and Vettel. Bahrain wasn't that special - the win was achieved more thanks to Brawn's brilliant strategy rather than Button's own impressive pace.

I think it's all a matter of opinion and definition. I was more impressed by his performance (can't even remember which race now) when his tyres were cold, he qualified badly, yet hung in there to gain valuable points through sheer determination in a car which was obviously performing below more than half the field. To me that was one helluva drive.

But, that's me!

Sorry! I apologise! I did promise not to keep repeating it; my bad. :(

[wedge]

I think it's all a matter of opinion and definition. I was more impressed by his performance (can't even remember which race now) when his tyres were cold, he qualified badly, yet hung in there to gain valuable points through sheer determination in a car which was obviously performing below more than half the field. To me that was one helluva drive.

But, that's me!

Sorry! I apologise! I did promise not to keep repeating it; my bad. :(

Silverstone - despite his mid-race bitching he caught up with Rubens.

Bunsen weaving on the straights at Nurburgring just to find tyre temp was hilarious whereas Rubens didn't have to use such tactics.

Spain was impressive. Strategy changed mid-race and made it work.

The best was Brazil. It was like watching Lauda/Piquet - gutsy and well planned overtaking moves whilst aware that WDC was on the line.

[Robinho]

Take a look at your previous post before judging me, you started the insults and trash talk, so be a man and take it on the chin without whining.


point out exactly any insults in the previous post. Also let me know where I was whining?

i judged you a long long time ago and you've done nothing but reinforce my feelings over and over again

[ioan]

point out exactly any insults in the previous post.

You mean calling others hypocrites based on nothing is OK by your standards?


Also let me know where I was whining?

All over the place.


i judged you a long long time ago and you've done nothing but reinforce my feelings over and over again

Good to know that your the immaculate one who judges the others. :\

Anyway this thread is about how Lewy will clean the floor with Button.

[Robinho]

You mean calling others hypocrites based on nothing is OK by your standards?

I said
you simply cannot have it both ways, espoecially not if you abhor hypocrisy as much as you say you do.

i think you'll find i was attacking the post, not the poster, based on the statement you'd made in another thread where you defended your statement by saying how much you hated hypocrisy.

i'm not whining, i'm simply doing what you do all the time to many others, pointing out percieved errors and contradictions in your posts.



Good to know that your the immaculate one who judges the others. :\

Anyway this thread is about how Lewy will clean the floor with Button.

I never said I was immaculate, your are putting words in my mouth that I never said (and I think it should be you're, not your). I can't believe you have never made a judgement on someone on the forum, perhaps you are just unwilling to admit to it publicly. it has not been a snap judgement - you have posted over 18,000 times, and not everything you say I have disagreed with, you've even made points in this thread I agree with. I don't believe I am "the one" judging "the others", I fully expect people to judge me by my actions, and will stand by those actions where appropriate, albeit i'm not above admitting i am wrong on occasion.

as for Lewis wiping the floor with Button i don't see that happening. i'd say Lewis wiped the flor with Kovy, Button will be far closer, although I too will be surprised if Button beats him, espcially in his 1st year. Lewis is an exceptional talent, and think anyone would struggle to beat him in equal machinery. Button is very very good, and is world champ, so as equipped as almost anyone on the grid to at least run him close.

my opinion is that Button will beat Lewis a few times this year, but Lewis will come out on top overall. if they both hang around at McLaren for the 3 years, and the car is competitive, then i think Button could well beat him 1 year at least, but i do think Lewis is the faster driver overall, but Button is a very good racer and very experienced. he won't be battered.

[ioan]

I said

My bad. I'll double check next time.

[Robinho]

My bad. I'll double check next time.

appreciated.

i take it you reckon Hamilton will waste Button, or do you actually reckon it will be closer than that?

like i said, i don't expect Button to beat Lewis, butr that is will be far closer than some reckon. if it is will that improve peoples (your) opinion of Button or lower that of Lewis?

[Saint Devote]

My favorite Jenson race weekend was Monaco.

My favorite laps were Monte Carlo and Catalunya qualifying - those pole winning laps FLOORED people.

Favorite moment was Jenson winning the title at Interlagos.

Other moments were many but his performances at Interlagos and Ass Marina - especially the latter, he allowed "Jenson to be Jenson" and it was a great dice between him and Webber . A few more laps and he would have passed the Aussie.

[Garry Walker]

I took sympathy on the constant pummeling I have had to meet out here defending the honour of Jense MBE :s mokin:

How I wouldnt want to be that button picture on your wall.




It was Ross Brawn who said that Jenson's Monte Carlo weekend was like being with Schumacher all over again. His pole position winning lap left the whole pitlane stunned and Rubens afterwards STATED that he was just amazed at it.



What was impressive about beating a ferrari by less than 1 tenth, when it is obvious to every idiot the Brawn was the much faster car?




Other moments were many but his performances at Interlagos and Ass Marina -

Ass-marina? were you thinking of Button again when you wrote that :D ?

[ioan]

What was impressive about beating a ferrari by less than 1 tenth, when it is obvious to every idiot the Brawn was the much faster car?

Where have you been the last few months? You should know by now that Button is the god (there's a reason why I didn't use a capital letter :) ) of F1 racing and everything he does is impressive, phenomenal, incredible and so on and so forth! ;)

[Giuseppe F1]

http://www.mclaren.com/images/homepage-stories/JB2-195.jpg

[Giuseppe F1]

http://twitpic.com/show/thumb/w7g2w.jpg

http://twitpic.com/w7g2w

[Saint Devote]

http://www.mclaren.com/images/homepage-stories/JB2-195.jpg

Jense getting ready to kick German [especially that old fart's], Spanish, Brazilian and Stevenage arse! I say! :vader:

Lets go Jenson! - to wear number ONE on a car from the best team in motor racing: MCLAREN :D

[motetarip]

What was impressive about beating a ferrari by less than 1 tenth, when it is obvious to every idiot the Brawn was the much faster car??

That'll be why Massa got the fastest race lap then. Also:

Quote from Stefan Domenicali after the race - "The most important thing to come out of today is the confirmation that our car is back to being competitive"

Quote from Felipe Massa after the race - "The car was very competitive"

Quote from Chris Dyer - "What is reassuring is the pace shown by the F60, especially in the second part of the race, when despite having more fuel than the leaders, we were always quicker."

[Valve Bounce]

I can only suggest that we all ignore his rants about Bunsen until next year when Bunsen gets his arse kicked. Then we can all come out, resurrect this thread (I will gladly do that as I have bookmarked it) and roast him. Agreed??

[Saint Devote]

I can only suggest that we all ignore his rants about Bunsen until next year when Bunsen gets his arse kicked. Then we can all come out, resurrect this thread (I will gladly do that as I have bookmarked it) and roast him. Agreed??

You made an error I see - obviously you mistakenly inserted Jenson where MARK WEBBER ought to be as he has his arse kicked 19 times in a row by Sebastian Vettel.

Webber to Lotus in 2011 while Jenson retains his world title in the Mclaren :D :s mokin:

[Saint Devote]

You should know that Button is the god (there's a reason why I didn't use a capital letter :) ) of F1 racing and everything he does is impressive, phenomenal, incredible and so on and so forth! ;)

And here I was thinking that you only had feelings for Schumi.

How kewte! :s mokin:

[CNR]

You made an error I see - obviously you mistakenly inserted Jenson where MARK WEBBER ought to be as he has his arse kicked 19 times in a row by Sebastian Vettel.

Webber to Lotus in 2011 while Jenson retains his world title in the Mclaren :D :s mokin:

Bolton Midnight dream on button is a one hit wonder do you really think jenson will be allowed to beat lewis

[F1boat]

Bolton Midnight dream on button is a one hit wonder do you really think jenson will be allowed to beat lewis

I think that many of you guys missed several little things.
1) McLaren has a new boss who will try to recover the good name of the team. F.ex. to make it British gentleman team and not the cheating organization which failed royally in 2007.
2) The new boy in the team is an English boy and not a Spanish one. British media would not like bad treatment to Jenson, nor will Vodafone.
3) And finally, remember that after Malaysia the relations between the old boss Ron and Lewis are not as warm as before. Didn't Lewis missed the Ron's farewell party? Even if the old boss remains the boss, I doubt that Lewis will be favored.

[DexDexter]

I think that many of you guys missed several little things.
1) McLaren has a new boss who will try to recover the good name of the team. F.ex. to make it British gentleman team and not the cheating organization which failed royally in 2007.
2) The new boy in the team is an English boy and not a Spanish one. British media would not like bad treatment to Jenson, nor will Vodafone.
3) And finally, remember that after Malaysia the relations between the old boss Ron and Lewis are not as warm as before. Didn't Lewis missed the Ron's farewell party? Even if the old boss remains the boss, I doubt that Lewis will be favored.

Why did they treat Heikki the way they did then?

[F1boat]

Why did they treat Heikki the way they did then?

They had to develop very quickly and put everything into Lewis because Heikki is much weaker and not British IMO.

[DexDexter]

They had to develop very quickly and put everything into Lewis because Heikki is much weaker and not British IMO.

Mika was not British, nor was Kimi and they didn't seem to have any problems.

[Valve Bounce]

You made an error I see - obviously you mistakenly inserted Jenson where MARK WEBBER ought to be as he has his arse kicked 19 times in a row by Sebastian Vettel.

Webber to Lotus in 2011 while Jenson retains his world title in the Mclaren :D :s mokin:

Right!! :rolleyes:

[F1boat]

Mika was not British, nor was Kimi and they didn't seem to have any problems.

It is true, but in my opinion Hakkinen had very good connection with Ron Dennis and Mercedes-Benz and was vastly superior to David Coulthard (although David wasn't a bad driver IMO). Kimi was also better than DC, as the British driver never learned the one-lap qualifying. About Montoya, IMO he didn't fit with McLaren-Mercedes, but I think that the team was not sabotaging him like Alonso in 2007. Actually his car was more reliable, I think.
In conclusion, while McLaren are notorious with the fact that one driver is more liked than the other (Senna over Prost, Hakkinen over Coulthard, Raikkonen over Montoya) only in the case with Lewis and Fred there was a clear favouritism, IMO because Hamilton is British, a home boy and a good friend of Ron. Now, however, the other driver is also British and there is a will if a clean start IMO. I don't expect ugly scenes from McLaren this year.

[henners88]

the team was not sabotaging him like Alonso in 2007. Actually his car was more reliable, I think.

In conclusion, while McLaren are notorious with the fact that one driver is more liked than the other (Senna over Prost, Hakkinen over Coulthard, Raikkonen over Montoya) only in the case with Lewis and Fred there was a clear favouritism, IMO because Hamilton is British, a home boy and a good friend of Ron. Now, however, the other driver is also British and there is a will if a clean start IMO. I don't expect ugly scenes from McLaren this year.
Face palm :rolleyes:

I don't often disagree with you but I am yet to see anyone prove this theory. Sure people bring up the "we were racing Alonso" line, but at the end of the day Alonso and Hamy boy were given equal machinery in 2007. An FIA scrutineer present for a third of the season ensured this and Alonso was rarely far behind LH. I'm sure there was resentment after FA tried to blackmail the team which is natural, but they were both given an opportunity to prove themselves on track.

At the end of the day its how a driver asserts himself in a team and LH was very good at psychologically unnerving and out performing a WDC in a season where he had everything to prove. There was fault with both drivers in 2007 and I think both have learned valuable lessons since, and so have Mclaren.. :)

I don't often disagree with you but I am yet to see anyone prove this theory. Sure people bring up the "we were racing Alonso" line, but at the end of the day Alonso and Hamy boy were given equal machinery in 2007

Didn't Fernando claim that his tyre pressures had been altered without his consent in China?

http://www.as.com/motor/articulo/gran-premio-formula-formula-automovilismo/dasmot/20071008dasdaimot_6/Tes

It was only after this that the FIA put a steward in the Mclaren garage, so your claim in that respect is false as there was an FIA steward present only in Brazil....where Fernando beat Hamilton.

Translation of the above article....

"Max Mosley quickly reacted to the complaints of Fernando Alonso after the qualification. FIA president is an enemy of Ron Dennis and he is not going to let him pass nothing. In fact, in the last hour of Saturday afternoon, he made arrive to Alonso his worries through an emissary. He does not want traps around the number one car or nothing that could possible harm him in his fight for the title.

For that reason he has decided to open a discreet investigation that will maintain the tension on the headquarters of McLaren until Brazil. The data of the pressures of all sets of tires used by the Spanish have been successfully obtained during the GP of China. And the numbers obtained had increased the suspicions. Of the ten sets of tires that Alonso used, only two had different pressures. It was the ones that he used in the third and decisive part of qualification. Instead of 0.2pounds of pressure, there were more than 1,5pounds of pressure. This drastically reduced his grip. This time the cause could be overheat of compounds. The heaters were adjusted to a greater temperature than the standard, More than 90ºC (194ºF), and this generated the change of the tire pressures. Because of this the final collapse and the loss of time.

In Fuji the pressures were also wrong, but only in the back wheels and perhaps they were badly inflated. They sent to England the tire heaters to analyze them, but curiously, these things never happen in qualification to Lewis Hamilton. With Hungary and Japan, this is the third sabotage suspicion of the year"

Apologies for any mistakes, my Spanish isn't the best.

[henners88]

"Max Mosley quickly reacted to the complaints of Fernando Alonso after the qualification. FIA president is an enemy of Ron Dennis and he is not going to let him pass nothing....

In Fuji the pressures were also wrong, but only in the back wheels and perhaps they were badly inflated. They sent to England the tire heaters to analyze them, but curiously, these things never happen in qualification to Lewis Hamilton. With Hungary and Japan, this is the third sabotage suspicion of the year"

Apologies for any mistakes, my Spanish isn't the best.
First of all Tamb, the highlighted opening line shows that it was Fernando who went to Mosley about a suspicion with tyre temperatures, and with the Fernando of old this holds no water with me. This is the same man who accused the FIA of favouring Ferrari the previous season when MS outperformed him after their mass damper was banned. He may have had a point, but he has never been afraid to get political in the height of a title scrap.
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/05/31/banned-tuned-mass-dampers/

No hard evidence was ever found to say Mclaren favoured LH and the FIA were satisfied at the end of 2007 that this was the case, and no further action was taken. Maybe in light of this, it would not be outrageous to assume that Alonso was indeed unhappy with the fact that his time at Mclaren wasn't quite as easy as he had hoped and he was trying to justify in his own mind why his rookie teammate was outperforming him? Afterall he publically accused Renault of hampering his chances in late 2006 because Fisi seemed faster on occasion, even smashing his helmet in view of reporters in the Renault garage. A man who went to Mclaren as a double WDC and who they knew could get the job done. I somehow doubt they sabotaged his chances from the off considering they were paying a tidy sum and recieving money from two large Spanish sponsors.

Anyway this thread is about Button and I somehow doubt he'll be accusing Mclaren of the same tactics. Button may well find he's going to a team which is built around Lewis, but its his responsibilty to show what he can do. :)

[F1boat]

henner, for me it was obvious that McLaren favored Lewis. You may have different opinion, but Ron said it very well in China, I have nothing to add to his own words really. However, I am sure that the situation will be very different next year.

[DexDexter]

henner, for me it was obvious that McLaren favored Lewis. You may have different opinion, but Ron said it very well in China, I have nothing to add to his own words really. However, I am sure that the situation will be very different next year.

Sure they favoured Hamilton at the end but Hamilton was virtually matching Fred already in the first half of the season when surely there was no preferential treatment and to me that's the bottom line: Hamilton is the better driver of the two in the cockpit. ( which obviously is offtopic :) )

[ioan]

First of all Tamb, the highlighted opening line shows that it was Fernando who went to Mosley about a suspicion with tyre temperatures...

And who were you expecting to do that? Ron 'we were racing Alonso' Dennis?! :laugh:

[henners88]

And who were you expecting to do that? Ron 'we were racing Alonso' Dennis?! :laugh:
Well it was Ron who brought the Spygate scandal to the attention of the FIA when he found out certain members of his team were cheating, including Mr Alonso. ;)

I'm sure now he drives for the Scuderia his murky past will dissolve away like its has with previous employees... :p

[Giuseppe F1]

Looks like Button has made his first appearance in Mclaren colours :up:

http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=47589

Already posted a page back in this thread buddy :)

[Saint Devote]

Well it was Ron who brought the Spygate scandal to the attention of the FIA when he found out certain members of his team were cheating, including Mr Alonso.

I'm sure now he drives for the Scuderia his murky past will dissolve away like its has with previous employees...

You make serious allegations against Alonso, something not even the FIA saw fit to do - exactly where or how did he cheat? Where has he ever cheated?

Knowing about something in no way obligates anyone to become a whistleblower to any "authorities". He used information to attack Ron Dennis and that is something totally different. All is fair in love and self-defense.

[ioan]

You make serious allegations against Alonso, something not even the FIA saw fit to do - exactly where or how did he cheat? Where has he ever cheated?

Oh well...

[Valve Bounce]

henner, for me it was obvious that McLaren favored Lewis. You may have different opinion, but Ron said it very well in China, I have nothing to add to his own words really. However, I am sure that the situation will be very different next year.

Well, for a start, McLaren can't favour Lewis over Fernando next year. :D

[ioan]

Well, for a start, McLaren can't favour Lewis over Fernando next year. :D

I would be worried if that happened! ;)

[F1boat]

Well, for a start, McLaren can't favour Lewis over Fernando next year. :D

Haha!

[henners88]

You make serious allegations against Alonso, something not even the FIA saw fit to do - exactly where or how did he cheat? Where has he ever cheated?

Knowing about something in no way obligates anyone to become a whistleblower to any "authorities". He used information to attack Ron Dennis and that is something totally different. All is fair in love and self-defense.
It was well known at the time that after the Belgium GP qualifying bust up, FA had a heated conversation with Ron Dennis which involved Fernando threatening to go the FIA about Ferrari data in their possession. Its not fully known that Ron knew about this data, but he called FA's bluff and approached the FIA himself. You can read about it here and many sources on the net. See below for details...

I'm sorry but knowing about and using known stolen data IS cheating regardless of how it is dressed up.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7003042.stm


At the time, Alonso threatened to reveal evidence in the spy row, which eventually led to McLaren being fined and losing their constructors' points.
Dennis told last week's 'spygate' hearing, whose transcripts are now public: "We're not on speaking terms.

[Hondo]

You make serious allegations against Alonso, something not even the FIA saw fit to do - exactly where or how did he cheat? Where has he ever cheated?

Knowing about something in no way obligates anyone to become a whistleblower to any "authorities". He used information to attack Ron Dennis and that is something totally different. All is fair in love and self-defense.

Sure the FIA made serious allegations against Alonso. They offered immunity deals to him while he was at McLaren and again, more recently, at Renault. The innocent do not require immunity deals.

[Mia 01]

Sure the FIA made serious allegations against Alonso. They offered immunity deals to him while he was at McLaren and again, more recently, at Renault. The innocent do not require immunity deals.

Well putted!

It was well known at the time that after the Belgium GP qualifying bust up

Get your facts right.

It was Hungary, not Spa.

Another example, along with your false claim about FIA stewards being in the Mclaren garage for a third of the season, of incorrect statements.

Anymore of those, and people will start to think you don't know what your talking about.

[henners88]

Get your facts right.

It was Hungary, not Spa.

Another example, along with your false claim about FIA stewards being in the Mclaren garage for a third of the season, of incorrect statements.

Anymore of those, and people will start to think you don't know what your talking about.
Cheer up Tamb ;)

You're right it was Hungary, and I'm only human, I do occasionally get things wrong. In my defence though, I am man enough to hold my hands up when I am. I don't just leave the forum for a couple of weeks and hope it blows over.

[F1boat]

Huh? Wasn't that a JB topic?

[pino]

Huh? Wasn't that a JB topic?

It still is ;)

[F1boat]

Yes, lets try and get it back on topic shall we.. :)

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=47590

He sounds upbeat, which is good, although expected. Hopefully his relations with the team will be good.

[Mia 01]

Whitout a uber superior car, like this years Brawn in the first half of the season, Jenson will suffer.

Jenson is a very good driver, but on my list he ranks five or six.

[Garry Walker]

That'll be why Massa got the fastest race lap then. Also:

Quote from Stefan Domenicali after the race - "The most important thing to come out of today is the confirmation that our car is back to being competitive"

Quote from Felipe Massa after the race - "The car was very competitive"

Quote from Chris Dyer - "What is reassuring is the pace shown by the F60, especially in the second part of the race, when despite having more fuel than the leaders, we were always quicker."

1) Brawn guys were not having to push hard anymore.
2) Ferrari had 2 far superior drivers to Button and Barrichello.

[wedge]

Given the fact that JB is World Champion, and has signed for McLaren, perhaps of more interest than being "worthy" or not is how things will work out in 2010.

Nick Fry had this to say on the subject:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80511


Fry's arse licking is very sickening. Just how many top drivers in F1 has he worked with? I'd be more interested in Martin Whitmarsh's opinions on Bunsen's McLaren career/talents.

To prove Fry is an idiot:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8605793.stm

"Michael is, for me, quite remarkable," said Fry.

"The level of feedback he gives is something that I have never seen before, and is just not in the debriefs.

"When you have the headphones on you hear amazing things. In qualifying he was driving around almost giving a commentary.

"He has taken the disappointment of what happened in Malaysia very well.

[ioan]

To prove Fry is an idiot:

No news there.

[Daniel]

To prove Fry is an idiot:
Sounds like Nick was playing pocket billiards in a debrief session.......