fiat still in f1

[4mula1]

how can ferrari stay in f1, toyota bmw and honda are more well known than fiat and there out of f1. and its been years since fiat sold cars in u.s.a. & canada (?) also, i think at least 3 ferraris were in some races. ive heard talk of 3 cars on the grid for next year. :confused:

[Saint Devote]

how can ferrari stay in f1, toyota bmw and honda are more well known than fiat and there out of f1. and its been years since fiat sold cars in u.s.a. & canada (?) also, i think at least 3 ferraris were in some races. ive heard talk of 3 cars on the grid for next year. :confused:

FIAT, as opposed to all the failed manufacturers you mention did not become involved with the Ferrari racing team when they took over.

They understood that a racing team is a totally different entity and has to be managed differently. To their credit. Renault understood that as well.

But Renault have a dilemma unless they hire David Richards.....

It has always been amazing that the failed auto manufacturers - Toyota, Honda and BMW did not just let the teams be as they were. Honda did at first with Richards then again with Brawn before they decided to leave.

[Rollo]

how can ferrari stay in f1, toyota bmw and honda are more well known than fiat and there out of f1. and its been years since fiat sold cars in u.s.a. & canada (?) also, i think at least 3 ferraris were in some races. ive heard talk of 3 cars on the grid for next year. :confused:

Because unlike Toyota, BMW, or Honda, Ferrari is not a car manufacturer that races cars, but a racing team that happens to sell road cars. Ferrari does not exist primarily to sell cars, but to go motor racing.

Your question is like asking "Why do Manchester United remain playing football?" or "How can the English cricket team continue to keep on playing cricket?".

How can Ferrari stay in F1? Because it exists to race.

[Sonic]

It also helps that unlike the others you mentioned, Ferrari actually win!

toyota bmw and honda are more well known than fiat

That depends on where you live.

[Dave B]

Seeing Toyota, BMW and Honda in one sentence got me thinking.

Between them, how many races did they enter as manufacturers (in the modern era, obviously), and how much money did they throw at F1?

And for what? No wins for Toyota, one for BMW (arguably not truly on merit as Hamilton took out Raikkonen in the pitlane leaving the way clear for Kubica), and one for Honda (again some round these parts will argue that it wasn't really earned).

What a bloody waste.

[V12]

Seeing Toyota, BMW and Honda in one sentence got me thinking.

Between them, how many races did they enter as manufacturers (in the modern era, obviously), and how much money did they throw at F1?

And for what? No wins for Toyota, one for BMW (arguably not truly on merit as Hamilton took out Raikkonen in the pitlane leaving the way clear for Kubica), and one for Honda (again some round these parts will argue that it wasn't really earned).

What a bloody waste.


And compare that with how many wins between them BMW and Honda had as engine suppliers...

[Sonic]

And compare that with how many wins between them BMW and Honda had as engine suppliers...

Indeed. It just proves what we all know already; the best way to succeed in F1 as a manufacturer is to pair up with a strong racing team.

[V12]

Indeed. I decided to look it up. 72 wins for Honda, 20 for BMW in total. Take away Surtees, Button and Kubica's wins that 89 versus 3. And I'm sure if you worked it out on a per-race entry basis (considering they were engine suppliers for longer than they were team owners), that first number would still be significantly greater.

[anthonyvop]

and its been years since fiat sold cars in u.s.a. & canada
FIAT returns to the US market in 2011. Alfa in 2012.

[VkmSpouge]

Seeing Toyota, BMW and Honda in one sentence got me thinking.

You might as well add Jaguar to that list. They had their own team ahead of those and produced a brilliant template of team mis-management and sub-par cars that the other new manufacturer entrants copied.

[Rollo]

You might as well add Jaguar to that list. They had their own team ahead of those and produced a brilliant template of team mis-management and sub-par cars that the other new manufacturer entrants copied.

Hardly.

Jaguar F1 was a case of where Ford Motor Co, purchased Stewart Grand Prix and subsequently like every single one of Ford's ventures in every motorsport field they entered in, they lost interest. Jaguar was only ever rebrand essentially.
At any rate, that team was sold to Dietrich Mateschitz in 2004, and rebranded Red Bull, and as at 2009 was reasonably successful. I don't know about BMW, but Honda and Toyota both really tried and failed.

Ironically Red Bull's first involvement in F1 was in 1995 with Sauber, which eventually became BMW.

[V12]

Jaguar was only ever rebrand essentially.


It was more than a rebrand. The Stewarts that had run the team so well for the past 3 years were replaced, although that was not Ford's fault admittedly, Jackie stepping aside voluntarily while I believe Paul was fighting cancer at the time IIRC?

But anyway, rather than hire direct replacements and let them get on with it, they introduced layer upon layer of corporate management, changed boss every month it seemed like. To be honest if they HAD "lost interest" in it then it would probably have been a lot more successful, I actually think that was getting to be the case in 2003/04 when they started doing better with Webber at the wheel.

I think it's no coincidence that the most successful of the manufactuer buy-outs was Benetton -> Renault (swap Jaguar for Renault in your quote and it would be spot-on). Because all Renault basically did was buy the team, supply engines, provide some extra money, and rebrand it. The team was left autonomous pretty much and remained Benetton in all but name.

You could say a similar thing about McLaren-Mercedes, except it IS still "McLaren" in name despite Merc owning a stake (for now!)

[wedge]

Seeing Toyota, BMW and Honda in one sentence got me thinking.

Between them, how many races did they enter as manufacturers (in the modern era, obviously), and how much money did they throw at F1?

And for what? No wins for Toyota, one for BMW (arguably not truly on merit as Hamilton took out Raikkonen in the pitlane leaving the way clear for Kubica), and one for Honda (again some round these parts will argue that it wasn't really earned).

What a bloody waste.

The answer to this seems that corporate types shouldn't be messing with F1. Just let the F1 bods get on with it.

I think BMW were onto something. They were toddlers compared Toyota.

[Daniel]

It should also be pointed out that Fiat are not as far in the doldrums as some of their competitors though this is rather a moot point as I doubt Ferrari's F1 effort requires huge sums of cash from Fiat if it requires anything at all.

[UltimateDanGTR]

The answer to this seems that corporate types shouldn't be messing with F1. Just let the F1 bods get on with it.

I think BMW were onto something. They were toddlers compared Toyota.

agreed. BMW seemed to have RACING people in their team, rather than full of corporate people a-la toyota. and BMW were on the steady rise to be as good as Macca and Fezza IMO, it was just the case of totally changed rules that BMW stalled a bit. I had no doubt they were going to do well in 2010, until they pulled out.

as for Honda, they were fantastic as an engine supplier, and for manier year in the late 80s built the best engines. and when BAR first got Honda engines, look at the boost they got. Honda didnt need to take over BAR, but i spose if they didnt we wouldnt have had Brawn.........

my point is, i agree with a lot of people who think some of these manurfacturers should stick to engine supplying, especially with a good track record already there like Honda.

[ioan]

Ferrari does not exist primarily to sell cars, but to go motor racing.

That isn't exactly the case anymore.

The reason why Ferrari or Fiat doesn't need to pull the plug on the F1 team is because they have enough sponsors to pay the F1 bill for many years to come.

[Jag_Warrior]

The reason why Ferrari or Fiat doesn't need to pull the plug on the F1 team is because they have enough sponsors to pay the F1 bill for many years to come.

That's the impression I get, as well. If Ferrari needed hundreds of millions in FIAT funding every year, I would say they might be facing budget cuts, though I doubt they'd pull out. The ROI from being invlolved in F1 is probably better for FIAT/Ferrari than any other sponsorship on the grid. And with Ferrari being one of the best known brands (car or otherwise) on the planet, it's pretty much a slam dunk to remain in F1.

[UltimateDanGTR]

and another reason why Fiat/Ferrari dont need to and would never pull the plug on F1; when 'non-F1' people or even the casual viewer thinks of F1, they immediatly think of Ferrari. If you were to do a survey where everyone in the developed world were to write down the first 3 things that came into their mind when the phrase 'F1' is mentioned, id say Ferrari would be on 85% of lists, if not more.

Ferrari is synonymous with F1; F1 is synonymous with ferrari. and thats why ferrari are different to any other manufacturer, they are a part of F1, and F1 is a part of them. its like manchester united in football, australia in cricket etc. part of the heart of F1 is Ferrari.

[Malbec]

agreed. BMW seemed to have RACING people in their team, rather than full of corporate people a-la toyota. and BMW were on the steady rise to be as good as Macca and Fezza IMO, it was just the case of totally changed rules that BMW stalled a bit. I had no doubt they were going to do well in 2010, until they pulled out.

BMW doesn't have racing types, when its involved in motorsport it contracts the work out with the only exception being when it builds F1 engines. It was lucky that it got involved with a well run team in Sauber to get success.

The degree to which BMW doesn't understand motorsports is born out by the way it pulled out of F1, it essentially did everything possible to make sure BMW-Sauber went bust. Its lucky that Toyota is pulling out of F1, its the only chance BMW-Sauber has of existing next year in one form or another.

Williams didn't like their interference and dumped them. BMW's 2009 season was spoilt by the way in which the company demanded a huge KERS/F1/hybrid power tie in for commercial reasons, we know now of course that KERS was a dead-end. Not even Toyota with its precious Prius to sell compromised their F1 development by insisting on KERS.

Even with motorbikes, what singles BMW out above all other brands is the way in which it studiously avoided racing with the exception of Dakar. Again thats changed only recently as its joined up with superbikes to freshen up their image.

[codalunga]

That's the impression I get, as well. If Ferrari needed hundreds of millions in FIAT funding every year, I would say they might be facing budget cuts, though I doubt they'd pull out.

My impression was Marlboro and Shell supply quite a bit of the funds, and perhaps driver salary money. There was quite a bit of informed sources from the sport that said those two sponsors picked up the Schumacher tab. Lauda mentioned in his books 30 years ago that Marlboro was the one to lobby when it came to his pay. I doubt much has changed. Also we're in the "new" more restricted/long life/spec parts/frozen spec/restricted testing F1 which allowed Braun lay off a ton of workers earlier in the season and still win the championship.

[4mula1]

That isn't exactly the case anymore.

The reason why Ferrari or Fiat doesn't need to pull the plug on the F1 team is because they have enough sponsors to pay the F1 bill for many years to come. thank you, good answer :s mokin:

[UltimateDanGTR]

BMW doesn't have racing types, when its involved in motorsport it contracts the work out with the only exception being when it builds F1 engines.



thats exactly my point. they didnt just 'do it all themselves' like toyota, they knew they didnt know were to start. so what did they do? they contracted out the work to those RACING people, in this case most from sauber. toyota thought they could do it all themselves and it would all come to them. they were wrong. BMW were smarter than that.

[Malbec]

thats exactly my point. they didnt just 'do it all themselves' like toyota, they knew they didnt know were to start. so what did they do? they contracted out the work to those RACING people, in this case most from sauber. toyota thought they could do it all themselves and it would all come to them. they were wrong. BMW were smarter than that.

Toyota didn't do it by themselves though did they. They had Toyota Motorsports do it for them, a separate European company that did all their rallying and Le Mans stuff, then finally F1.

Thats why all the Toyota F1 staff were European whilst only the CEO was Japanese, thats not true of any other Toyota subsidiary where most of the management are Japanese.

[Sonic]

My feelings on the Toyota failure come down to that last point Dylan. Toyota F1 always seemed very slow to respond to the shifting sands that is part of the make-up of F1 and from the outside looking in it always seemed that the top dogs back in Japan debated for too long and by the time they had finally agreed on a course of action the whole grid had moved on by 0.5s.

[Malbec]

My feelings on the Toyota failure come down to that last point Dylan. Toyota F1 always seemed very slow to respond to the shifting sands that is part of the make-up of F1 and from the outside looking in it always seemed that the top dogs back in Japan debated for too long and by the time they had finally agreed on a course of action the whole grid had moved on by 0.5s.

Thats precisely my point, the press may have portrayed Toyota and Honda as being oppressive and incapable of understanding F1 (even though the latter produced the Brawn 001) whilst Beemer did a good job, but in reality the management interference at all three companies was the same.

Theissen was a BMW man through and through. The decision to go with KERS wasn't based on competitive advantage, it was because BMW wanted a tie in with its showroom products. Not even Toyota was willing to go with KERS to that extent even though they have the Prius to tie in hybrid power with, they left it for the team to decide whether they wanted to use it. In other words BMW was more than happy to push the team around for its own corporate needs and did so.

Finally do you really think the way BMW treated BMW SauberF1 last month shows an understanding of F1 and compassion for the people who work in it?