When The Wall came down

[Rollo]

9th November a day that will live long in the memory (and in infamy for other reasons).

What do you remember of the wall coming down? I was only 11 and only saw the events unfold from the other side of a television screen, so I am an unreliable witness.

Günter Schabowski, a politburo official had been given the news to read out and was more or less confused as to how it was going to take place and within several hours, Berliners were busy with pick axes and cold chisels doing the job themselves.

I would like to hear people's stories, and if anyone else actually has a piece of it (I bought mine along with a 1989 proof set of both Germanys' coins).

[Storm]

I was 13 and I only remember things I saw on TV, particularly on a program we used to have every friday night at 11pm - The world this week.
We only had 1 state TV channel back then, just like the wall collapsed then, a year or so later our economy opened up and we got cable TV :D

[Eki]

sMHyovwX7JM

[wedge]

0zXiClnK8oE



Rollo - I'd always thought that you were middle aged! Never knew we're a similar age. I turned 9 when the wall came down!

[Mark]

9th November a day that will live long in the memory (and in infamy for other reasons)..

Wonder why that isn't called 9/11 ?!

I think the date of 9/11/1989 is significant as it could be argued that this was the date of the final end of the second World War.

[anthonyvop]

This song pretty much sums up my feelings at the time

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[Eki]

That reminded me of this beautiful song:

SSRVtlTwFs8

[Rollo]

Wonder why that isn't called 9/11 ?!

I think the date of 9/11/1989 is significant as it could be argued that this was the date of the final end of the second World War.

That would be October 3 1990, when the "Treaty on the Final Settlement With Respect to Germany" was signed, reunifying Germany.

[Eki]

Wonder why that isn't called 9/11 ?!

I think the date of 9/11/1989 is significant as it could be argued that this was the date of the final end of the second World War.
The second World War won't end until Finland gets back Karelia.

[Rollo]

The second World War won't end until Finland gets back Karelia.

Although this was clearly meant to be inflammatory to someone, it's not as daft as the Third Punic War which officially ended in 1985 when Ugo Vetere, the mayor of Rome, and Chedly Klibi, the mayor of Carthage officially signed a pact which ended the war some 1,836 years after it started.

Then there was the Hundred Years War, which the English really liked winning against the French so much, they spun it out. Yeah, if you're doing well at the crease you bat on don't you?

[Sleeper]

Although this was clearly meant to be inflammatory to someone, it's not as daft as the Third Punic War which officially ended in 1985 when Ugo Vetere, the mayor of Rome, and Chedly Klibi, the mayor of Carthage officially signed a pact which ended the war some 1,836 years after it started.

Then there was the Hundred Years War, which the English really liked winning against the French so much, they spun it out. Yeah, if you're doing well at the crease you bat on don't you?
Thats stretching things a bit isnt it, I thought the Romans razed Carthage after the siege.

Anyway, I was 4 so I dont remember a thing.

[anthonyvop]

That reminded me of this beautiful song:

SSRVtlTwFs8
Yes.
Lets celebrate the lying, cowardly, murderer!!!!!!!!!!

Funny part is I bet you don't even know what she is singing about.

[airshifter]

Strange how nobody really has a significant view of what that event means to them.

To me it signified the end of the Cold War, which somehow through all the posturing and paranoia, ended without a major incident between the US and the Soviets. Having been born shortly after the Cuban Missle Crisis, and serving in the military in the 80's I realized just how much both sides prepared for something that at the time they though inevitable.

US military tactics focused primarily on defeating Soviet tactics, and the East did the same. We watched them at every move, they did the same. I remember being in Germany and going to the border. On the West German side there was nothing other than a sign. On the East German side there were manned guard towers, spotlights, and double rows of high barbed wire fences with raked sand between them. By this time they had removed the mines, as too many children were killed.


For a period in the 80s I worked in a major command communications center. We safeguarded nuclear release codes, the codes needed to actually launch an ICBM from US soil. We had coded worded test messages that we got from time to time to exercise reaction times to authenticate and forward the appropriate release codes to the proper command for weapons launch. The code words themselves were classified, and they signified different scenarios.

One of the code words was a test response to a nuclear first strike launch by the Soviets. Had the real thing ever arrived, it would signify inbound nuclear weapons targetted at US soil. Our job we be to (very) quickly release the codes to launch ICBMs, and another command would arm the warheads. Once this countering volley was in flight, both sides would have about 20 minutes to determine if it was a bluff.

I'm sure the East was just as prepared for such things. Somehow through all that posturing over the years, both sides found leaders that would end this part of the war through mutual cooperation, diplomacy, and goodwill.

[Eki]

Yes.
Lets celebrate the lying, cowardly, murderer!!!!!!!!!!

Funny part is I bet you don't even know what she is singing about.

Until Always [English]

We learned to love you
from the heights of history
with the sun of your bravery
you laid siege to death

Chorus:

The deep (or beloved) transparency of your presence
became clear here
Commandante Che Guevara

Your glorious and strong hand
fires at history
when all of Santa Clara
awakens to see you

Chorus

You come burning the winds
with spring suns
to plant the flag
with the light of your smile

Chorus

Your revolutionary love
leads you to a new undertaking
where they are awaiting the firmness
of your liberating arm

Chorus

We will carry on
as we did along with you
and with Fidel we say to you:
Until Always, Commandante!

Chorus

[anthonyvop]

Until Always [English]

We learned to love you
from the heights of history
with the sun of your bravery
you laid siege to death

Chorus:

The deep (or beloved) transparency of your presence
became clear here
Commandante Che Guevara

Your glorious and strong hand
fires at history
when all of Santa Clara
awakens to see you

Chorus

You come burning the winds
with spring suns
to plant the flag
with the light of your smile

Chorus

Your revolutionary love
leads you to a new undertaking
where they are awaiting the firmness
of your liberating arm

Chorus

We will carry on
as we did along with you
and with Fidel we say to you:
Until Always, Commandante!

Chorus

And you don't see the terrible irony?

[AAReagles]

Strange how nobody really has a significant view of what that event means to them.

To me it signified the end of the Cold War, which somehow through all the posturing and paranoia, ended without a major incident between the US and the Soviets. Having been born shortly after the Cuban Missle Crisis, and serving in the military in the 80's I realized just how much both sides prepared for something that at the time they though inevitable...

I was 25 at the time, on leave while in the army, having just left Bamberg as my last duty station with Ft. Campbell as my next assignment to look forward to.

I thought the event was groovy, not only for Eastern Europe in general, but the world as well. It also didn't hurt to realize that at the time I thought 'well, a year-and-a-half to go for my service stint, so it's "easy street" now.'

Then Bush (Sr.) started drumming up this crusade for democracy for Kuwait...

Remember how some factories had smoke stacks painted alternately red-white-red and so on? Those were the same color patterns mortar crews used for their aiming stakes.

The joke used to be that those smoke stacks were aiming stakes for the Czechoslovakian artillery to make precise hits on our motor pool (mechanized infantry) since one of those stacks was located on the other side of the fence.

Thats stretching things a bit isnt it, I thought the Romans razed Carthage after the siege.

Anyway, I was 4 so I dont remember a thing.

You were 4 when they razed Carthage to the ground?

Blimey.....you are old.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I remember the Wall coming down. I remember how a bunch of university students in a school newspaper sat around on a composing night WATCHING the footage, knowing one of our own flew over there and was supposed to bring back some part of the wall if he could. Dope got drunk at a party and someone stole all his chunks he had at a party, so I never did get my chunk BUT I do remember that we all saw it as good for democracy, and when you consider how left some my friends at that paper were politically, it was rare I saw eye to eye on something like this. Of course, they didn't want to admit that indirectly such hated people as Reagan, the Pope and Thatcher may have had something to do with it.

THey did like Lech Walesa tho. I think his movement in Poland was that first domino...that ended with that wall coming down......

[Camelopard]

When the wall came down I was in Vancouver, I truly wish I could have been in Berlin, but such is life.

Something I must ad though is the fact that I was in the former GDR in 2005 and 2007 and spoke quite a bit with some former members of the East German Volks Army at a former Soviet base called Altes Lager, near Juteborg. They have set up a museum at this former Soviet air base, which is well worth a visit, we came across it by chance and I'm glad we did.

Another thread, the one about Cuba where "M in O" states that Cubans were being denied the option of leaving Cuban under the pain of imprisonment or possibly death. Well the same could be said for former East Germans 25 years ago, they risked life and limb to flee the tyranny of a police state.

It was interesting though to speak to these former East Germans (with my wife translating, she is fluent in German, unlike me, I have enough trouble with English!), things weren't quite as rosy as painted in the western press after the wall came down. There were things that they actually felt better about under the stasi, things like free education, free health care, free accommodation and employment for life. Ther was very little crime, people did not have to lock their doors as they trusted their neighbours!

Bringing down the wall may have produced 'democracy' however the people I spoke to felt like they were second class citizens in the 'new' Germany, no, in fact lower than that, beneath even the Turks and other migrants that came into West Germany as guest arbiter in the sixties and seventies.

They felt they were being taken advantage of by 'street savvy' wessies and taken for a ride!. They also said that there was no crime in the former GDR and no racism, in particular the racism being shown by the neo-nazis in a 'unified' Germany.

These guys I spoke to laughed about the 'cold war', even to the point of saying that they really wished the US had invaded, quote 'they would have got such a shock'! This was in 2005 and this was at the time of the New Orleans debacle with Katrina and these guys laughed at the fact that if the US military couldn't deal with a natural disaster like Katrina, how the hell did they ever think they were going to defeat the Warsaw Pact countries! In the words of some forgotten tv star, or perhaps a forgotten politician. they said 'bring it on!'.


Just coz you can vote doesn't mean you have democracy ask a non ethic Chinese person in Singapore for example!

[Camelopard]

This song pretty much sums up my feelings at the time


20 years and counting vop, it's been a long long time to wait, you and your scumbag* mate posada will probably be dead before this happens..... and I truly hope that is the case... :)


*http://www.thefreedictionary.com/scumbag

[Tomi]

Wonder why that isn't called 9/11 ?!

maybe it would be mixed with the other big dissaster, military coup in Chile on 11 September 1973.

[Mark in Oshawa]

..., the one about Cuba where "M in O" states that Cubans were being denied the option of leaving Cuban under the pain of imprisonment or possibly death. Well the same could be said for former East Germans 25 years ago, they risked life and limb to flee the tyranny of a police state.

Yes, and I always thought the East Germans who did what they could to get out were brave people and deserving of hero status.


...... things weren't quite as rosy as painted in the western press after the wall came down. There were things that they actually felt better about under the stasi, things like free education, free health care, free accommodation and employment for life. Ther was very little crime, people did not have to lock their doors as they trusted their neighbours!

Bringing down the wall may have produced 'democracy' however the people I spoke to felt like they were second class citizens in the 'new' Germany, no, in fact lower than that, beneath even the Turks and other migrants that came into West Germany as guest arbiter in the sixties and seventies.

They felt they were being taken advantage of by 'street savvy' wessies and taken for a ride!. They also said that there was no crime in the former GDR and no racism, in particular the racism being shown by the neo-nazis in a 'unified' Germany.

There is no racism? Things were better? No...but when it is all you know, you tend to feel comfortable in the familiar, the same way women who are married to thugs often are reluctant to leave no matter how much abuse they take. Still doesn't make it right. Most of the people in the east were used to the state making all the decisions for them. Freedom means taking responsibility for yourself and your family and taking stock and doing what it takes to make your life better. They had some growing pains for sure, and some street smart crooks didn't exactly help their trust I suppose, but I bet within a generation their KIDS wouldn't want to go back to the old way.


These guys I spoke to laughed about the 'cold war', even to the point of saying that they really wished the US had invaded, quote 'they would have got such a shock'! This was in 2005 and this was at the time of the New Orleans debacle with Katrina and these guys laughed at the fact that if the US military couldn't deal with a natural disaster like Katrina, how the hell did they ever think they were going to defeat the Warsaw Pact countries! In the words of some forgotten tv star, or perhaps a forgotten politician. they said 'bring it on!'.


Just coz you can vote doesn't mean you have democracy ask a non ethic Chinese person in Singapore for example!

AS for New Orleans and Katrina, it wasn't the US military that messed that up. They take orders from the civilian government. Not the politicians necessarily but the bureaucrats. All politicians take the heat for the ineptitude and stupidity often created by bureaucrats. Katrina was a blunder by politicians not providing policy, spending the money on infrastructure, and having the bureaucracy make a credible plan to deal with the possiblity of a disaster like this. New Orleans was in the target of too many Hurricanes but it's politicians, it's Mayor (Ray Nagin), and the Governor at the time were clueless on what to do, and hoped FEMA would save them. FEMA, for whatever reason, dropped the ball, which is ironic because it was an agency that dealt with the messes of other Hurricanes such as Andrew (Anyone remember the carnage in Homestead Fla?) and Hugo.

No one has ever taken a modern US city and tried to save it from a disaster of that magnitude. Bush's appointed head of FEMA was a doofus, but he probably trusted the bureaucracy under him. It is reasons like this I don't trust ANY government to get things right. The motivation of large government isn't always to do the job right, it is to make it look like the job is being done, deflect the blame when it isn't, and to always make sure your budget isn't cut.

I suppose the East Germans might hanker for the good ole days when they only had to trust government, but I suspect that as time goes on, they are realizing living in a free democracy is better than the prison they lived in. Democracy is a lousy way to run a country, just it is better than the other models. I belive Churchill said something to that effect....

[airshifter]

When the wall came down I was in Vancouver, I truly wish I could have been in Berlin, but such is life.

Something I must ad though is the fact that I was in the former GDR in 2005 and 2007 and spoke quite a bit with some former members of the East German Volks Army at a former Soviet base called Altes Lager, near Juteborg. They have set up a museum at this former Soviet air base, which is well worth a visit, we came across it by chance and I'm glad we did.

Another thread, the one about Cuba where "M in O" states that Cubans were being denied the option of leaving Cuban under the pain of imprisonment or possibly death. Well the same could be said for former East Germans 25 years ago, they risked life and limb to flee the tyranny of a police state.

It was interesting though to speak to these former East Germans (with my wife translating, she is fluent in German, unlike me, I have enough trouble with English!), things weren't quite as rosy as painted in the western press after the wall came down. There were things that they actually felt better about under the stasi, things like free education, free health care, free accommodation and employment for life. Ther was very little crime, people did not have to lock their doors as they trusted their neighbours!

Bringing down the wall may have produced 'democracy' however the people I spoke to felt like they were second class citizens in the 'new' Germany, no, in fact lower than that, beneath even the Turks and other migrants that came into West Germany as guest arbiter in the sixties and seventies.

They felt they were being taken advantage of by 'street savvy' wessies and taken for a ride!. They also said that there was no crime in the former GDR and no racism, in particular the racism being shown by the neo-nazis in a 'unified' Germany.

These guys I spoke to laughed about the 'cold war', even to the point of saying that they really wished the US had invaded, quote 'they would have got such a shock'! This was in 2005 and this was at the time of the New Orleans debacle with Katrina and these guys laughed at the fact that if the US military couldn't deal with a natural disaster like Katrina, how the hell did they ever think they were going to defeat the Warsaw Pact countries! In the words of some forgotten tv star, or perhaps a forgotten politician. they said 'bring it on!'.


Just coz you can vote doesn't mean you have democracy ask a non ethic Chinese person in Singapore for example!


Interesting post, and I agree that the fall of the wall wasn't easy for many people. The changes in their way of life were probably hard to accept at times, and not all the change was for the better.

The comments you heard about the Cold War drive home a point though. They really were brought up to think it was about the US wanting to invade them or otherwise control them. In fact US tactics were about ensuring they couldn't invade us or our allies. In reality either side may have gained some ground had they approached it right, but I don't think either side ever really considered it.

All those nukes and the mentality of mutually assured destruction that they held thankfully kept such conventional conflict from ever happening. And though it would have taken longer, conventional warfare IMHO would have resulted in just as many if not more deaths.

[Eki]

No one has ever taken a modern US city and tried to save it from a disaster of that magnitude. Bush's appointed head of FEMA was a doofus, but he probably trusted the bureaucracy under him. It is reasons like this I don't trust ANY government to get things right. The motivation of large government isn't always to do the job right, it is to make it look like the job is being done, deflect the blame when it isn't, and to always make sure your budget isn't cut.


So you believe private enterprises would have handled Katrina better? First they should have tried to figure out where's the money in that.

[Eki]

They really were brought up to think it was about the US wanting to invade them or otherwise control them.
That same situation is reality now in Iran and North Korea. I once saw a BBC documentary on North Korea, and the North Koreans in it seemed to genuinely believe that an electrical black-out they experienced was because of the US.

[Mark in Oshawa]

So you believe private enterprises would have handled Katrina better? First they should have tried to figure out where's the money in that.

No, it is governments role to come to the aid of a city that was struck like New Orleans was. For better or worse they have to be seen as the one's trying to fix things. However, no matter which government or politician you put at the head of things, in whatever country you want to name, you will not have everything fixed in a week. Which to an extent strikes me what people expected. I watched that horror show on the news and wondered how many 1st world nations could have dealt with this sort of disaster with the scrutiny of a hostile press and come out looking remotely competant.

The USSR and communist nations of the past had disasters like this, look no further than the mess that was Chernobyl. Yet they didn't have to have a 1000 critics telling them what a mess they made of things. I think tho the role of the private industry and private sector is to be contracted out by government to fix the problem to the government's satisfaction on a basis where there is is an incentive. In the case of something like this, contract out the supplying of temporary housing, contract out the reconstruction of housing.

Some things they shouldn't do. The US Army Corp of Engineers did a decent job of drying out the 9th ward and repairing the berm. They had been advocating improvements to the flood control measures in New Orleans for decades and were not given the money nor attention by government to do so until the flood. In short, gov't has a role to play in any society in times of trouble. They have to understand what they should do directly, and contract out what they don't need. To bring this back to the point of this thread, in a socialist utopia like East Germany, or the USSR in the case of Chernobyl, we saw how well it wasn't handled....

[Mark in Oshawa]

That same situation is reality now in Iran and North Korea. I once saw a BBC documentary on North Korea, and the North Koreans in it seemed to genuinely believe that an electrical black-out they experienced was because of the US.

They were TOLD to believe it by their Dear Leader.... This is what happens in Gulags that disguise themselves as sovereign states. You accuse the US of all sorts of things by ignoring some facts and twisting others. These poor souls are only saying what they they were told to believe because they have little other infomation to make their decision.

[Eki]

No, it is governments role to come to the aid of a city that was struck like New Orleans was. For better or worse they have to be seen as the one's trying to fix things. However, no matter which government or politician you put at the head of things, in whatever country you want to name, you will not have everything fixed in a week. Which to an extent strikes me what people expected. I watched that horror show on the news and wondered how many 1st world nations could have dealt with this sort of disaster with the scrutiny of a hostile press and come out looking remotely competant.


Finland offered to send in help, but the US declined it and said they don't need it.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Finland offered to send in help, but the US declined it and said they don't need it.

It wasn't that it wasn't needed per se. It was they had no way of utilizing it likely. The Canadian Navy had its provision and hospital ship in Florida at the time and was on scene assisting with one of our frigates. I know that a lot of linemen and their trucks were donated to go south and restring wires and the like. It isn't that the Americans didn't accept outside help, but they had to have way of utilizing it. It is to be noted tho. The Gulf Coast towns of Biloxi and Gulfport over in Alabama and Mississippi were as badly hit by the storm and the storm surge did a lot more physical damage than people realize. Yet both states didn't spend any time whining about the US Fed's being slow.....gee...could it be they had proficient governments that didn't have their head up their you know where???? New Orleans is a mess because Lousiana was a mess. It may be why the governor's mansion changed parties in the next election...just a thought.

[Eki]

It wasn't that it wasn't needed per se. It was they had no way of utilizing it likely.
I don't believe that. It's funny how third world countries always find ways to utilize the help that Finland sends. I think the real reason was that the US was afraid they would be seen as weak if they admit they need help and accept it from foreign countries, especially smaller ones. It's bit like Russia refused outside help to rescue the submarine Kursk, until they realized they couldn't do without it.

Americans can be petty sometimes. Like when they were upset just because Obama bowed the Japanese Emperor:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20091116/pl_afp/japanusdiplomacyasiaobama

[Easy Drifter]

I hadn't realized Canada was bigger than the US, except in land mass.
As Mark said our Navy helped and their help was gratefully accepted. Ontario Hydro and other power companies sent crews and equipment. There were many Cdn. volunteers that went to the US and their help was gratefully accepted.
Truckloads of bottled water were sent by various Cdn. companies, mostly as donations.
It wasn't money that was needed it was on the spot labour and supplies. Canada could and did supply both.
Oh and trucks and crews from various Cdn. Power companies have assisted the US after Ice storms and other hurricanes many times.
We have had crews helping fight their forest fires at times and they have helped us out.
Aid flows back and forth across the border as needed.
Both countries also help world wide when there are disasters, as I expect does Finland.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't believe that. It's funny how third world countries always find ways to utilize the help that Finland sends. I think the real reason was that the US was afraid they would be seen as weak if they admit they need help and accept it from foreign countries, especially smaller ones. It's bit like Russia refused outside help to rescue the submarine Kursk, until they realized they couldn't do without it.

Eki, it has NOTHING to do with pride. If it was pride, they would have spurned the Canadian aid believe me. It has everything to do with what they needed. If Finland offered something they had plenty of, or it would take two weeks to be on site, then maybe it wasn't worth putting the Finn's through the cost and effort to provide something they had. New Orleans was a mess, but it was a mess where they knew what they needed for the most part, but time was the biggest factor in being able to rectify things. Third world countries don't turn anything down because they have nothing. If the rich guy next door needs tools from you, he will come by and borrow them. IF you see him fixing his car, and you go over and offer up your little socket set and he wheels out a tool chest, you may have something useful, but it is something he has plenty of. I am sure you probably are the only Finn who has EVER complained about the fact the American's didn't need your help.

Another thing to consider Eki. IS the Finnish aid involving people? Were the Finn's coming in with people to help things or just aid? food? medicine, that sort of thing? It is way more complicated than just accepting help from everywhere, but The US were not going to take something from Finland that they had plenty of. As for people on the ground help, they had no shortage of people, and if they had to have 100 Finn''s wandering around helping, that would be great but would the Finnish contigent speak English. Would their electrical people be used to working on the 110 v system vs the 220 v system as found in Europe? There are a million little details that come into a logistical effort rebuilding and rescuing a major city hit by a disaster.

Of course, we wont let logic or common sense get in the way of an anti-American polemic will we?

Americans can be petty sometimes. Like when they were upset just because Obama bowed the Japanese Emperor:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20091116/pl_afp/japanusdiplomacyasiaobama

American Presidents, since day one are told to never bow to a Monarch. The reason being is the US Consistution and Declaration is repuditation of being reigned over by a sovreign appointed by heredity or "God". Bowing to any monarch means to some that you are subservient symbolically. We all know that this isn't the case, and not many Americans are bent out of shape about it. Personally, I understand why people don't want to see Obama doing that, but he was also wrong. Apparently protocol with the Japanese emperor is you shake hands but NOT bow; or just bow. Obama did both. Easily understandable if you don't have people coaching you on protocol, but Obama has never ceased to amaze me in how he can screw up simple things like this and yet have everyone tell me how smart he is.

Barack's error isn't a big deal in the end....but he did sort of toss out American Presidential tradition and history, and he does that a lot. Hence the anger....

[Eki]

Another thing to consider Eki. IS the Finnish aid involving people?
Yes, and dogs too. Doctors, rescue workers, search dogs, etc.

[Eki]

As for people on the ground help, they had no shortage of people, and if they had to have 100 Finn''s wandering around helping, that would be great but would the Finnish contigent speak English.
Do I speak English? Sufficiently, I'd say. Otherwise they wouldn't volunteer.


Would their electrical people be used to working on the 110 v system vs the 220 v system as found in Europe?
I don't think they are stupid or uneducated.

[Eki]

American Presidents, since day one are told to never bow to a Monarch. The reason being is the US Consistution and Declaration is repuditation of being reigned over by a sovreign appointed by heredity or "God". Bowing to any monarch means to some that you are subservient symbolically. We all know that this isn't the case, and not many Americans are bent out of shape about it. Personally, I understand why people don't want to see Obama doing that, but he was also wrong. Apparently protocol with the Japanese emperor is you shake hands but NOT bow; or just bow. Obama did both. Easily understandable if you don't have people coaching you on protocol, but Obama has never ceased to amaze me in how he can screw up simple things like this and yet have everyone tell me how smart he is.

Barack's error isn't a big deal in the end....but he did sort of toss out American Presidential tradition and history, and he does that a lot. Hence the anger....
Like the news said, it was the protocol and Obama has manners. We all know that Cheney is an oaf and a jerk without manners, so we don't expect him to bow or even shake hands. This is what we learnt to expect from Cheney, Bush and the likes:

tUTwaSPcGno

[Easy Drifter]

News Flash for Eki!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is 2009.
Bush and Cheney are not in power.
Are you still going to be mouthing off about Bush 20 years from now?
Give it a bloody break man.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Drifter, he is likely the only Finn that took offense that the Finnish offer of help was declined. Why if Eki went there, the problems would have been solved in 10 minutes.

AS for his tirade on Bush and Cheney, I just remember where it is coming from.....and I feel better already.

Obama didn't obey protocol. Not the end of the world, but it puts lie to the fact that this so called "Intelligent" man (as opposed to that idiot Bush) could make an @ss of himself. Funny...don't remember Bush screwing up Protocol meeting those same leaders.... Guess smart is in the eyes of the beholder....

[Eki]

Drifter, he is likely the only Finn that took offense that the Finnish offer of help was declined. Why if Eki went there, the problems would have been solved in 10 minutes.

AS for his tirade on Bush and Cheney, I just remember where it is coming from.....and I feel better already.

Obama didn't obey protocol. Not the end of the world, but it puts lie to the fact that this so called "Intelligent" man (as opposed to that idiot Bush) could make an @ss of himself. Funny...don't remember Bush screwing up Protocol meeting those same leaders.... Guess smart is in the eyes of the beholder....
Cheney did screw up. He didn't bow the Japanese Emperor according to the protocol (the protocol in Japan says "bow the Emperor"). I don't know if Bush ever met him, but I'm sure giving a surprise neck rub to the German Chancellor isn't in the protocol. Well, at least he didn't grope her tits.

Have you watched the British comedy series "Men Behaving Badly"? They probably could do something similar about Bush and Cheney:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=men+behaving+badly&search_type=&aq=f

[Mark in Oshawa]

Cheney did screw up. He didn't bow the Japanese Emperor according to the protocol (the protocol in Japan says "bow the Emperor"). I don't know if Bush ever met him, but I'm sure giving a surprise neck rub to the German Chancellor isn't in the protocol. Well, at least he didn't grope her tits.

Have you watched the British comedy series "Men Behaving Badly"? They probably could do something similar about Bush and Cheney:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=men+behaving+badly&search_type=&aq=f

Hate to break it to you. American Presidents or Vice in this case have traditionally NOT bowed to any leader BECAUSE the idea of America is their leader is subservient to no other leader nor superior. A meeting of equals. Clinton never bowed beyond what is expected. Obama was seen as grovelling to some. I don't personally think it is a big deal, but hey...you hate Cheney and Bush. Your opinion means not much, you have proven no objectivity or logic on this or any other subject.

[Tomi]

Hate to break it to you. American Presidents or Vice in this case have traditionally NOT bowed to any leader BECAUSE the idea of America is their leader is subservient to no other leader nor superior.

Why make it so complicated when its only a thing about basic manners, if the president goes to visit a foreign country he should bow if its good manners there, when he is at his home country he act the way he does, and whats common there.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Why make it so complicated when its only a thing about basic manners, if the president goes to visit a foreign country he should bow if its good manners there, when he is at his home country he act the way he does, and whats common there.

Tomi, there is manners, and there is grovelling. A simple nod of the head is enough for any other leader. Obama was doubled over. That, and the symbolism of an American president showing subservience to a king/emperor. American's founded their nation by overthrowing a sovereign and hence their tradtion of their presidents NOT bowing to anyone. I don't see much wrong with it either to be honest because it is empty symbolism to an extent, but it shows just how much Obama is wanting to be accepted on some level. That is good....and bad. I don't want to be lead by a guy who is desparate to be loved.....and lucky for me...lol..I am not.

[Eki]

Tomi, there is manners, and there is grovelling.
And it seems that many Americans don't see the difference between them. I think this is well demonstrated at the JFK airport through which many arrive to and get the first impression of the US. They also leave through it and get the last impression. East German customs official was a stereotype of a strict and serious customs official, but the US customs officials didn't seem to be far behind. I visited the US before 9/11 attacks and the customs officials there already looked very serious and blunt. As a contrast, I went through the London Heathrow airport a day after a July 2005 terrorist attack. They had a double security check, but still the customs officials were able to smile and knew words like "sorry" and "thank you" and were still able to do their work efficiently.

[Tomi]

Tomi, there is manners, and there is grovelling. A simple nod of the head is enough for any other leader. Obama was doubled over. That, and the symbolism of an American president showing subservience to a king/emperor. American's founded their nation by overthrowing a sovereign and hence their tradtion of their presidents NOT bowing to anyone. I don't see much wrong with it either to be honest because it is empty symbolism to an extent, but it shows just how much Obama is wanting to be accepted on some level. That is good....and bad. I don't want to be lead by a guy who is desparate to be loved.....and lucky for me...lol..I am not.

Well thats not the case, if the emperor comes to visit the nodding is enough, but if the president is a guest I think he should act the way they do in that country, especially in asia its important, if only nod, average asian see him as arrogant and someone who has no manners.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well thats not the case, if the emperor comes to visit the nodding is enough, but if the president is a guest I think he should act the way they do in that country, especially in asia its important, if only nod, average asian see him as arrogant and someone who has no manners.

Perhaps. Then again, in Asian countries they also know of other people's traditions and the tolerance for them. The Emperor I am sure knows the main reason he is on the throne was because the American occupying forces in 1945 understood implicitly how important the Japanese emperor and his decendents would be in the formation of a democratic Japan. I suspect there is a lot of understandings on both sides. Diplomatic protocols and standards have been around for years. Never have seen a President or any world leader bend right over like Obama did....

[Tomi]

Perhaps. Then again, in Asian countries they also know of other people's traditions and the tolerance for them. The Emperor I am sure knows the main reason he is on the throne was because the American occupying forces in 1945 understood implicitly how important the Japanese emperor and his decendents would be in the formation of a democratic Japan. I suspect there is a lot of understandings on both sides. Diplomatic protocols and standards have been around for years. Never have seen a President or any world leader bend right over like Obama did....

The emperor know for sure, but the average people make their picture of what they see on tv or read from newspapers, nobody really is interested in us customs and habbits.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The emperor know for sure, but the average people make their picture of what they see on tv or read from newspapers, nobody really is interested in us customs and habbits.


Tomi..Americans are, and that is why Obama's silly bow got mention in their press. THey don't want to see their leader grovel...even if he just thought he was being polite.

[Tomi]

Tomi..Americans are, and that is why Obama's silly bow got mention in their press. THey don't want to see their leader grovel...even if he just thought he was being polite.

somehow i have a feeling that its only a small amount of americans who thinks its silly, i guess those same who has problems with anything he does.

[Mark in Oshawa]

somehow i have a feeling that its only a small amount of americans who thinks its silly, i guess those same who has problems with anything he does.

You might be right on that one Tomi, but there were a few who usually give him the benefit of the doubt too....

[Tomi]

East German customs official was a stereotype of a strict and serious customs official, but the US customs officials didn't seem to be far behind.

I was once at the checkpoint in Berlin in interrogations, because of spending time there more than 20 hours with a 6 hours transit visa. :)

[Storm]

OT, talking about visas, you Finns are a lucky lot :p :
Indian govt today announced a list of 5 countries whose citizens will no longer need a visa to visit our country (rather you can get one at the airport when you land). I think it is a good initiative on the govt's part to promote tourism in these times of security paranoia. For Japan, Singapore, NZ, Lux and Finland!

[Eki]

OT, talking about visas, you Finns are a lucky lot :p :
Indian govt today announced a list of 5 countries whose citizens will no longer need a visa to visit our country (rather you can get one at the airport when you land). I think it is a good initiative on the govt's part to promote tourism in these times of security paranoia. For Japan, Singapore, NZ, Lux and Finland!
I wonder if it works both ways. Even if all 5.3 million Finns decided to move to India, you in India would barely notice it. But if all 1 billion Indians decided to move to Finland, I'm sure we would notice. And just think about those poor Luxembourgian, they don't even have enough land space to accommodate you all!

[chuck34]

nobody really is interested in us customs and habbits.

Now why is it that Americans are expected to fully know, perfectly follow, and completely understand EVERY custom and habbit from every other country. But "nobody really is interested in US customs and habbits"? Doesn't make sence to me.

[Tomi]

Now why is it that Americans are expected to fully know, perfectly follow, and completely understand EVERY custom and habbit from every other country. But "nobody really is interested in US customs and habbits"? Doesn't make sence to me.

Im not surprised, it has to do with who is host and who is guest, if the american president want to show him self, as a guy with no manners to his host, its fine by me, no problem. Especially in asia thiskind of things are important, elsewhere I dont think anyone care.