R-Classes News

[Gordini]

What are the latest on the R-Classes?

Was Renault to make both R1 and R2 Twingos in addition to the Clio R3 ?
Just missing a Renault S2000 or 1,6WRC and then they have a complete line up, and will that be a Gordini?

What else is happening in the R classes, will FIA kill off all the other classes in international rallies, to simplify the lineup?

[HaCo]

As far as I know:
- Fabia R3
- DS3 R3T
- Twingo R2

Wonder when Suzuki will do something new in 2WD?

[Barreis]

They have S1600 that is still good in JWRC and better then R3..

[Francis44]

True^^.

[Karbonyl]

Fabia will be R2.

[mm1]

Also Fiat 500 Abarth R2

[urabus-denoS2000]

Fiat 500 will be R3T ;)

[Mirek]

Saw Fiat 500 R3T in Condroz this weekend. Nice car, I like it more than 207.

[urabus-denoS2000]

Who drove it?

[Mirek]

Jean-Piere Vandewauver (if I wrote it right), good driver.

[Wim_Impreza]

Almost right Mirek, it is Jean-Pierre Vandewauwer. ;)

[Mirek]

Twingo R2 test: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xb6vqh_essai-2009-twingo-r2_auto

[Sulland]

Is ford planning to upgrade the Fiesta R2 ?
Tech data says it has 165 hp compared to the C2R2 Max that has 190.
Sounds like the Fiesta drivers will have a challenge matching the Citroen.

[noel157]

]Twingo R2 test: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xb6vqh_essai-2009-twingo-r2_auto

Looks quite quick and very stable through the corners, any idea who was driving?

[Wasted Talent]

I'm not a fan of small cars like the Twingo and Fiat 500, there simply is not enough space around the crew in an accident - there is no room for the shell to deform.

WT

[Mirek]

Is ford planning to upgrade the Fiesta R2 ?
Tech data says it has 165 hp compared to the C2R2 Max that has 190.
Sounds like the Fiesta drivers will have a challenge matching the Citroen.

Fiesta is only R2, it's not Max spec.


Looks quite quick and very stable through the corners, any idea who was driving?

Heard that it might have been Manu Guigou but I'm not sure.

[RS]

So R3T exists for 1.6T cars, is there an R2T for 1.2 or 1.4T cars too?

[Cloverleaf]

So R3T exists for 1.6T cars, is there an R2T for 1.2 or 1.4T cars too?
All turbocharged petrol engines up to 1600cc are classified as R3T.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a186/tayyar_ak47/misc/R3T.jpg
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/A...29-15112008.pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/AC5311D1EC4418A7C12574FF0052C049/$FILE/260D%20%282009%29-15112008.pdf)

[Sulland]

So are we able to come up with a pricelist of R-Class cars that are or soon will be possible to buy ?

[ProRally]

FIA also working on R4 cars.... 4wd turbo

[Allar]

FIA also working on R4 cars.... 4wd turbo
I was thinking we have n4.

Btw Citroen is working on their R3 car aswell.

http://www.rallybuzz.com/info-citroen-ds3-r3/

[Gordini]

From what I have seen here and read elsewhere I will add that up to a ballpark Price List on the different R Classes. All prices in Euro for a complete ready to rally car.

R1 Aprox 25 000
R2 aprox 40 000
R3 aprox 55 000
R3 Maxi 90 000
R3D 60 000
R3T 90 000

Pls add or change if wrong.

[ProRally]

R4 would be like N4+ sequential box, 34mm, less weight and few other items which are allowed in other R classes.
Still be significant cheaper then S2000 or S2000 1.6T version

[HFAlex]

FIA also working on R4 cars.... 4wd turbo

mhhh.... interesting.
How do you know this?
May you add any info?
:confused:

[HaCo]

R4 would be like N4+ sequential box, 34mm, less weight and few other items which are allowed in other R classes.
Still be significant cheaper then S2000 or S2000 1.6T version

Great to hear that! If only it doesn't become too expensive and if they will drop the name 'standard class'.

[ProRally]

mhhh.... interesting.
How do you know this?
May you add any info?
:confused:

Hope to have more news after Rally Finland also about the new 'Juniors' which will be with R2 car.

[OldF]

R1:

The Renault Twingo R1 kit costs 9.500 €.


R2:

Renault Twingo R2 kit: 27990 €

http://www.renault-sport.com/en/rallye/twingo_r2/news.php?news=124296.html


Ford Fiesta R2 ready to run: 40.655 € (The price is from the Finnish magazine VM)


Citroen C2 R2: Tarmac kit: 18.400 € Gravel kit: 19.300 €

http://www.piecescitroensport.citroen.com/NR/rdonlyres/FF41F9D0-C2D4-49A2-AE6F-7CB1AEED1143/238722/TARIFKITC2R2complet1.pdf

Citroen C2 R2MAX: Tarmac & gravel kit: 34.000 €

http://www.piecescitroensport.citroen.com/NR/rdonlyres/FF41F9D0-C2D4-49A2-AE6F-7CB1AEED1143/238723/TARIFKITC2R2MAXcomplet1.pdf


R3:

Renault Clio R3 Maxi kit: 52.000 €
“Standard part” kit: 7.800 €
“Off-road” kit: 8.200 €

http://www.renault-sport.com/en/rallye/clio_r3/clio_r3_maxi.php


Honda Civic Type R: The kit installed into the donor car, which is not included in the price, 95.000 €.

http://www.jasmotorsport.com/Pdf/188.pdf


R3T:

Citroen DS3 R3T kit: 62.000 €

http://www.piecescitroensport.citroen.com/NR/rdonlyres/B8073730-8516-4E33-B125-8493DAD67DED/277147/90infocom90DS3R3commercialisation1.pdf


Note that a “kit” doesn’t include the donor car or assembly of the kit.

As you can see it’s little bit difficult to compare the prices because they include different things. Usually there are also some kinds of options and add-ons which increase the basic price.

[fugu]

mhhh.... interesting.
How do you know this?
May you add any info?
:confused:

"The GpN 4WD Turbo rally car category is currently undergoing the process of being renamed as R4 for 2011"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_N

"With the new S2000 rally car category currently under review due to lack of manufacturer interest, R4 which is effectively the new name for GpA (GpN 4WD fitted with a GpA/WRC spec. engine) is being evaluated for rallying in the WRC for 2011."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_A

[navtheace]

Yes, I have also been told similiar.

I suspect S2000/S1.6T will be canned or phased out. As this was a category when Max Mosley was in charge.

Surely an official announcement will be made by the FIA soon?

Here is some correspondance from someone known in rallying who has been working on it.

Hello

We started the end of january disscusion about R4 regulation and it is going forward. The plan is to be ready with the new regulation begining of 2011. It is long prosess and many people and companys are involved on that, but it is looking very positive. We will inform you how we improved in near future.

Reg.

[navtheace]

Hope to have more news after Rally Finland

Will be interested to hear more on this.

As there is much talk about GpN / R4 becoming the top class of the WRC by the people involved in and with the FIA discussions going on.

[Rally Power]

Will be interested to hear more on this.

As there is much talk about GpN / R4 becoming the top class of the WRC by the people involved in and with the FIA discussions going on.


I don't get it...how could it be the top class if WRC1.6T are already confirmed?

And how will GpN/R4 atract manufactureurs if there's a need to build 2.500 cars for homologations purposes (that was the main reason to european makes leave Gr.N)?

With all the fuss that rally regs are involved since 2007 there's no need to change the actual orientation of WRC1.6T, maybe only if it'll be confirmed the introduction of costly systems like hydraulic transmission or direct injection it would be wise to create a "Light" derivation from WRC1.6T, with mechanical transmissions and detuned engines, suitable to regional and national series.

And these WRC Light category could be easily renamed R4...

[navtheace]

There are talks about making it the top class and phasing S2000/S1.6T.

This is mentioned on another forum http://wrc.rallye-info.com:80/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=99&start=0

[Mirek]

Ok, but from which stock cars would You make them? Impreza, Lancer and?

[MJW]

I had a look at that other forum thread and must admit there seems to a body of people knowing about it. Jean Todt is a different character to Max Mosely, and maybe there is merit in becoming closer to a standard car. What I am concerned about though is why trick manufacturers into going S1.6T if its to be short lived? Surely, and considering its August soon, with only Ford (allegedly) having run a 1.6T engine in the Fiesta whilst Citroen still test a de-tuned 2.0 C4 engine, why cant FIA say, 2011 - 2013 is S2000, (PSA can run a 207 engine in the DS3, or even a 207 car, Ford the current Fiesta as run by most of the S2KCup lot, plus it allows Skoda a way in) Then allow the N4+ R4 to be introduced as the top class. We would all welcome cheaper rally cars, provided they were entertaining as well.
IF, this R4 thinhg is true its going to pi$$ off Citroen and Ford, unless of course they want it........
Hardly encouraging for VW, Toyota etc if the shifting sands of the tech specs still change on a daily basis.

[Mirek]

In the end I think that it doesn't really matter what cars WRC have but there must be firmly guaranteed set of rules for at least five years, better for a decade.

[navtheace]

Not only is it about lower cost of a top end WRC car.

It's the ability for anyone to build the car as self build just like GpA & GpN was all about.

From what I have heard, R4 will just be an easy modification from N4. For example, plastic side and rear windows, 34mm restrictor, excess metal brackets inside the boot and rear passenger permitted to be removed like the non used rear seatbelt brackets, along with many other 'no cost' modifcations.

[Mirek]

Of course that sounds nice but there is big BUT since there are very few suitable stock cars for making Gr.N of them (virtually only Impreza and Lancer) Developing completely new car and setting production line for serial production is huge deal for which new manufacturer needs to spend billions at the start.

A special car made out of cheap stock model like current S2000 has high-unit cost but there is no expense in new stock development and production.

In my opinion S2000 way is much more accessible for new manufacturers because with Gr.A cars most of them would need years and billions to spend in new stock models. It's the bigger problem as most of them has no experience and no know-how in something like sport-usable 4x4 systems etc.

[Rally Power]

It's the ability for anyone to build the car as self build just like GpA & GpN was all about.

Gp.A was replaced in mid 90's by WRC cars because no european manufactureur (besides Ford Europe) could cope with the need to produce thousands of higly expensives special homologation street cars.

Nowadays, beside prohibitive industrialisation costs (there's a finantial crisis going on...), environment issues (like Co2 levels) will certanly failled manufactureurs interest to be involved at a 2.500 special homologations process in order to enter the world championship.

So, and after Ralliart leaving annoucment, will R4 make sense knowing that probably will be a one make (Subaru) series?

Let's face it guys: S2000 was (is) a great concept, allowing big and small makes to easily produce exiting and affordable rally cars, and it's perfect for WRC, regional and national use, somehow like the unforgetable Gr.2/4 cars of the 70's.

Even so, and with effective cost control, WRC1.6T could be a reasonable S2000 evolution, as long Mr. Todt manage to restrain Mr. Quesnel "overbudget" ambition to keep Citroën's WRC supremacy.

[HaCo]

So, and after Ralliart leaving annoucment, will R4 make sense knowing that probably will be a one make (Subaru) series?

Let's face it guys: S2000 was (is) a great concept, allowing big and small makes to easily produce exiting and affordable rally cars, and it's perfect for WRC, regional and national use, somehow like the unforgetable Gr.2/4 cars of the 70's.

Even so, and with effective cost control, WRC1.6T could be a reasonable S2000 evolution, as long Mr. Todt manage to restrain Mr. Quesnel "overbudget" ambition to keep Citroën's WRC supremacy.

I almost totally agree with your statement. Cost is the most important thing in the whole issue. But don't forget that a current Gr N is a very cost-effective car: a lot of speed for less money.

5 years ago there was a good idea in Australia: let manufactures who don't have an N4 showroom car build a kit to make a car N4-alike (there was a corolla with a 2.0 turbo). That is IMHO the best solution: keep subaru's and mitsubishi's and add other manus based on a kit with almost the same spec (4x4, weight, power, brakes, ...). Base the kit on a kind of standard (like current X-Trac, ... for S2000) transmission, turbo and maybe other components. Maybe rallying will be affordable again at all levels.


Sorry for my English, hope you get the idea!

[Rally Power]

Cost is the most important thing in the whole issue. But don't forget that a current Gr N is a very cost-effective car: a lot of speed for less money.

Full Gr.N cars aren't cheap either, but less developed versions are obviously appealing at a clubmans level.

We all agree that a global cost-effective 4wd turbo category (with a large number of standart components and without expensive homologation process) would be the ideal solution for worlwide rallys, but we've already spent almost 4 years finding it, so there's little time to look back after last year confirmation for the 1.6T S2000 based cars.

Unfortunely after that confirmation 1.6TS2000 has become more WRC detuned versions than upgraded S2000 cars, with predictable raising levels of cost and technology that smaller makes won't cope, causing everyone the feeling that in 2 or 3 years will be another time facing a 1-2 makes wrc challenge...

That raising levels will also be prohibitive for national championships teams, so again will have a WRC pinnacle category unfit for national/regional use, and a urgent need to create a new base category, not only to replace N4 models, but also S2000 cars, strangly put aside from 2011.

With all these mess perhaps WRC future isn't bright, so at leats let's hope future R4, or however it'll be named, could interest a larger number of manufactureurs in order to develop national and regional rallys, the true basis of sport.

[Ouninpohja]

Bouffier with Citroën DS3 R3T in Ulster Rally ;)

http://www.autonews-magazine.com/blog/?p=12072

[johunn]

I have one question though... If WRC will be based on current groupN and S2000 cars then what will PWRC and JWRC have? Bicycles? Isn't the whole point of WRC to be rally at its highest level (considering both cars and drivers). Something that group B used to be where drivers demanded less power as it was too scary to drive with 500+hp. That really showed what the guys were made of. Currently drivers like Wilslow manage to nurse the car home and get Championship Points. He would wet his pants if he had to do Ouninpohja with a groupB rally car.

[navtheace]

There does not need to be any PWRC or JWRC that no one cares about.

No one outside of rallying know about these categories.

WRC will just become R1, R2, R3, R4 rally cars.

[johunn]

Well this is what I am trying to say... there is no point for such classes as R1, R2 and even R3 to exist in WRC. The guys that drive a Twingo R1 should run national or regional championships. Whats the point of a cheap car if it costs you a fortune to drag it to WRC events.

And no one cares because there is not much to watch in WRC. I consider myself to be a mediocre rally fan. I run a fan club for one of the local drivers. But I do not find anything spectacular about going to a WRC event these days. If I want to see group N or S2000 cars I can see plenty at Estonian national championships. What I would like to see is something special when I go watch a World Championship event. Just like Formula1. I could watch guys compete with Formula Renault in the national championship and it is great fun, but F1 is something spectacular. Yes, there are few amazing drivers currently in WRC and I still aim to watch as many different rallies as possible. But If the worlds best drivers drive cars that are not entertaining to watch there is no way that the audience numbers would rise.

[HaCo]

And no one cares because there is not much to watch in WRC. I consider myself to be a mediocre rally fan. I run a fan club for one of the local drivers. But I do not find anything spectacular about going to a WRC event these days. If I want to see group N or S2000 cars I can see plenty at Estonian national championships. What I would like to see is something special when I go watch a World Championship event. Just like Formula1. I could watch guys compete with Formula Renault in the national championship and it is great fun, but F1 is something spectacular. Yes, there are few amazing drivers currently in WRC and I still aim to watch as many different rallies as possible. But If the worlds best drivers drive cars that are not entertaining to watch there is no way that the audience numbers would rise.

I totally disagree. Look at IRC: local drivers can compete with top drivers in their home event. With your system (which is almost the current in WRC) only rich boys can take their chance to compete in WRC. Still complaining there is so less competition in WRC?

[Mirek]

Dani Sordo + DS3 R3T = very spectacular for 2WD :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyfARyHvcsU

[navtheace]

]Ok, but from which stock cars would You make them? Impreza, Lancer and?

Audi S3

[Mirek]

First there is no interest from VW Group to enter Audi to rally and than Audi S3 is too simple 4x4 for rally use. It uses Haldex viscous clutch which is too cheap solution. VW group doesn't have any better 4x4 stock system for cars with transversal engine (everything small enough).

[navtheace]

Lets wait till the official news come out from the FIA. Rallying could even move to just 2WD.

Who knows?

[navtheace]

Hope to have more news after Rally Finland

Hi ProRally.

Do you have any update on R4 cars now?

[ProRally]

Hi ProRally.

Do you have any update on R4 cars now?

Spoke to several people including FIA, there is progress albeit slow progress, will be hard to get everything confirmed and rules written and accepted before next season.
More in 2 weeks in Germany. But R4 is still very much a live....

Next World Council meeting is 10 September so not so much time left. :D

[RICARDO75]

Skoda Fabia R2

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ft7TgGoxwak/TFV-DaXO88I/AAAAAAAAJf4/idprRpL_xpc/s640/fabia+r2+a.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ft7TgGoxwak/TFV94X499jI/AAAAAAAAJfw/uH-5JohAZiY/s640/fabia+r2.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ft7TgGoxwak/TFV9qXjca2I/AAAAAAAAJfo/lQTerk-xocc/s640/fabia+r2+b.jpg

[navtheace]

What is the spec of that R2 Fabia?

As in engine size, and no turbo I take it? as in 1.6 no turbo means R2, 1.6 turbo would put it to R3 class?

[Mirek]

Yes, this one has 1.6 naturally aspirated engine, FWD, 5-speed seqential gearbox and Reiger suspension. It was developed by Impromat Motorsport and Škoda only provides homologation.

[navtheace]

Excellent stuff. Is there a road car Fabia with 1.6 petrol engine?

So basically anyone can buy the 1.6 road car and self make the R2 car yes?

[Mirek]

If the car is used in any FIA competition, it must have a homologation which can be provided only by manufacturer (who developed the car doesn't matter). In this particular case the base model with 1.6 engine is now on sale in Russia. That is also a reason why the premiere was delayed by few months because this model isn't sold anywhere else.

[navtheace]

If the FIA can make the world rally championship just R1, R2, R3, R4

this will be what the sport needs as anyone will be able to self build their rally cars. ie like the Fabia, Clio, Evo, Impreza, Civic etcetc.

We have to wait till September if the FIA can announce the cancelling of S2000 after 2011.

[Gordini]

The Renault Twingo R2 is impressing in the UK, being a new car.

[Sulland]

]Yes, this one has 1.6 naturally aspirated engine, FWD, 5-speed seqential gearbox and Reiger suspension. It was developed by Impromat Motorsport and Škoda only provides homologation.

Has it been tested against other R2s, if so how did it perform ?
Prices for kit or car ?

[MJW]

[quote="navtheace"]

IF FIA cancel S2000 in Sept, does that mean they cancel the 1.6T S2000 based WRC car as well? If so I guess David Richards / Prodrive BMW Mini wont be too pleased, neither should Citroen and Ford. Also these whispers about R4 might be de-stabilising to VW and Toyota.

[navtheace]

After GpB was cancelled after 1986. It was amazing how quickly manufacturers adjusted to GpA rules.

[HaCo]

After GpB was cancelled after 1986. It was amazing how quickly manufacturers adjusted to GpA rules.

Very good point!

Maybe R4 is a mix of S2000, Gr N, WRC ?

[Allar]

Very good point!

Maybe R4 is a mix of S2000, Gr N, WRC ?
Only s2000 and N4 looks more real.

[Rally Power]

After GpB was cancelled after 1986. It was amazing how quickly manufacturers adjusted to GpA rules.

I'm amazed with all this fuss around a possible R4 class and its purpose to replace WRC1.6T...

Let's be clear: in order to homologate a R4 car a manufactureur must produce 2.500 street cars, and has we've seen in N4, no other manu besides Mitusbishi and Subaru wants to exercice that kind of obligation.

After Ralliart closedown most probably only Subaru would cope with it!
(That wont be an isolated case as R1 also has a unique model range: the Renault Twingo!).

So, R4 just make sence to boost N4 cars, giving them more competitive parts (like sequencial gearboxes) not allowed under Gr. N rules.

In no way R4 can be seen as a WRC1.6T alternative.

And there's no need to wait till september to know that S2000 new homologations will be banned from 2011: that's already decidided.

It was also told that WRC1.6T cars will be allowed in every FIA championships (WRC, IRC, and Regional Series) and in national champs where allowed by local NSAs.

Only issue to be clarified is the possibility of pre-2011 homologated S2000 cars to receive a re-homologation with a 1.6T engine, in order to be competitive after 2010, even if not allowed at WRC rallys (an unexpected rule maybe linked with a hipotetic boycott from IRC towards WRC1.6T cars?).

[OldF]

I'm amazed with all this fuss around a possible R4 class and its purpose to replace WRC1.6T...

Let's be clear: in order to homologate a R4 car a manufactureur must produce 2.500 street cars, and has we've seen in N4, no other manu besides Mitusbishi and Subaru wants to exercice that kind of obligation.

After Ralliart closedown most probably only Subaru would cope with it!
(That wont be an isolated case as R1 also has a unique model range: the Renault Twingo!).

So, R4 just make sence to boost N4 cars, giving them more competitive parts (like sequencial gearboxes) not allowed under Gr. N rules.

In no way R4 can be seen as a WRC1.6T alternative.

And there's no need to wait till september to know that S2000 new homologations will be banned from 2011: that's already decidided.

It was also told that WRC1.6T cars will be allowed in every FIA championships (WRC, IRC, and Regional Series) and in national champs where allowed by local NSAs.

Only issue to be clarified is the possibility of pre-2011 homologated S2000 cars to receive a re-homologation with a 1.6T engine, in order to be competitive after 2010, even if not allowed at WRC rallys (an unexpected rule maybe linked with a hipotetic boycott from IRC towards WRC1.6T cars?).

IMO also R4 is just upgrades to N4 to get them more competitive against S2000 cars, not replacing 1.6T WRC cars.



After Ralliart closedown most probably only Subaru would cope with it!

http://ralliart.com/10topics/100310.html

By this press release I understand that Mitsubishi will take over some of the activities of Ralliart and Mitsubishi will continue in group N.

[navtheace]

Any updates on the R classes?

Or is the FIA meeting in September where all will be revealed about R4?

[ProRally]

IMO also R4 is just upgrades to N4 to get them more competitive against S2000 cars, not replacing 1.6T WRC cars.




http://ralliart.com/10topics/100310.html

By this press release I understand that Mitsubishi will take over some of the activities of Ralliart and Mitsubishi will continue in group N.

Both Subaru and Mitsubishi is talking to FIA about it, hope to hear more this weekend in WRC Germany

[navtheace]

As a bit of a side discussion, how does the Evo 10 compare to the newest Impreza GpN for performance?

As the Evo 10 was a bit down on performance when it first came about with many sticking with the Evo 9.

[Mirek]

Evo X has by far strongest engine of all Gr.N cars but is also too heavy. That is it's main problem. I think that it's almost 100 kg heavier than Impreza or Evo IX.

[RICARDO75]

Armindo Araújo said that is car is now with less 100kg than before

[navtheace]

Armindo Araújo said that is car is now with less 100kg than before


Is that from weight saving or Mitsubishi supplying an RS base car that has been lightened?

How did the Impreza's with 33mm restrictors perform on tarmac?

So, is there any news from Germany rally on the proposed R4 regs?

[ProRally]

FIA is really keen on doing it and there is a extraordinary World Council Meeting on 8 September. They are going to try to squeeze it in but the fear is that 'normally' things like this goes via working groups.... but as I said to them if there is enough will to get it through it might happen, their (FIA) answer was that they are not sure about the 'other' manufactures (who have S2000 now) might not be so keen.... more in 2 weeks time just before WRC Japan

[dimviii]

]Evo X has by far strongest engine of all Gr.N cars but is also too heavy. That is it's main problem. I think that it's almost 100 kg heavier than Impreza or Evo IX.

In Greece first grN evo X we measured in same corner weight scales same time with same fuel and both in gravel spec was 65kg heavier.But this depends from a lot of other reasons ie which fuel tank,which make roll cage,which make tyres/rims,underbody guards for both cars? etc if you want to have a very accurate measure of weight between them.
In some months we are going to have ours evo X ready for first hand informations.
First impressions from engine without the finally program in ecu it is very good against ours evo 9 cars.Better torque by far,better horsepower and bigger powerband against evo 9 with same (33mm) restrictor.

[Mirek]

Thanks, Dimviii ;)

I had a chat with a friend from Kresta Racing. They're now building Evo X for Jiri Tosovsky. He told me that they are able to get close to Evo IX weight but the car is very expensive. They have lightweight 15CDV6 rollcage from Heggemann.

[OldF]

Talking about expensive cars, there was a story in a magazine where they followed the whole process building a N group car from a road car. The price of this car was 169740 € (excluding taxes).

[dimviii]

did this price includes the work hours? and how much are they?

[vkangas]

did this price includes the work hours? and how much are they?

You can check the prices straight from TMR homepage: http://www.tommimakinenracing.fi/

I remember that article also, the car must have had "all you want", because normal TMR top spec STi costs below 140 000.

[OldF]

did this price includes the work hours? and how much are they?

It was the final price of the car ready for delivery. For some phases the hours was there. I can look them up later, just watching a movie from telly.

[dimviii]

These prices are very high for a grN
TMR is very expensive,even with ''catalogue prices''
Evos are much more cheaper,specially when you know where from to ''collect'' parts.
An other point is which parts you buy.Ie if you want to buy a suspension with tmr ''settings'' you are going to pay a lot.(useless imho as you always have to adjust different from rally to rally,even in different ss some times)
You can buy a rieger/ohlins with much less money if you(and your driver) can adjust the right settings.
From personally experience almost nobody pays catalogue prices when you buy a lot of $$.
An other point is that some parts doesn t make the car faster but better in some conditions(ie heated screen/high voltage alternator etc) Depends where you want to use your car.
Another point is the cost of work hours.Too much difference between countries/garages without the most expensive beeing and better.

Some examples...
ralliart (can t say from which country) wants 7000 euros for a groupN engine.Ours with fully rebuild/balanced/blue printed costed no more than 3000 euros with all parts new.
Another ralliart wants 2300 euros for an exaust.
You can buy a lighter one with wrc metal catalyzater with half money.
Brembo brakes are 9000 euros on catalogue while we bought them for less than 6000 euros brand new.
There are examples almost for every part i can see on catalogues i read about evos.
A more realistic cost with a brand new car must be about 110000 euros for an evo 9.

[navtheace]

The excellent thing is that there is choice. People can build a GpN car for less than Euro 100K and then you can go right to the top end price as mentioned above. It's all choice on how much you want to yourself for parts sourcing, if you can get your own GpN mechanics to do some of the build, or if you want to just pay for a completed car and to what spec.

This is better than how it was with world rally cars in that people woud pay the over inflated price asked by M Sport and Prodrive with no real choice to do things to ones own spec.

If R4 goes ahead, more motorsport companies will get involved and bring about lots of choice and competition on pricing and specs etcetc. All good for the paying customer.

Coming to R3 turbo rally cars - 1.6 turbo Front Wheel Drive. Is the rule 29mm restrictor?

[ProRally]

In Spain if you buy ALL the best of the best parts (not seats from 400 but good ones of 3000) etc. you come to 92.000 to 95.000 euro, but then you still need to strip/clean car/put cage with TIG/seam welding/paint etc etc etc.... so it goes quickly but top tuners ask around 140.000 euro for finished car, looks that Finland is bit more expensive in labour.... :D :D :D

[navtheace]

Two of the top known for GpN Subaru here

http://www.prodrive.com/up/Prodrive%20Impreza%20N2010.pdf

and

http://www.tommimakinen.com/tmr-brochure2010.pdf

No pricing mentioned, but you can see the options in both such as the in dash LCD displays are all adding to the costs.

The key thing about GpN being how one can start with a basic car and upgrade over time. Making the category very accomodating.

[vkangas]

Tommi Mäkinen Racing's Special offers. :)

http://www.tommimakinenracing.fi/tmr-offers2010.jpg (http://www.tommimakinenracing.fi/tmr-offers2010.jpg)

[OldF]

did this price includes the work hours? and how much are they?

I must say that I was quite surprised when I saw the price. A full TMR spec cars price is 138.000 € http://www.tommimakinenracing.fi/tmr-offers2010.jpg so I cannot imagine where from the difference come from. The only thing I saw was a Powertrain display but that one was only 900 €. I don’t know if Subaru has homologated a new turbo yet but replacing the original adds some cost also. And everything extra adds also working hours.

The only work hours that was there was the reinforcement welding of the body shell 20 hrs, checking and balancing the engine parts 20 hrs and installation of the roll cage 80 hrs.

[vkangas]

I must say that I was quite surprised when I saw the price. A full TMR spec cars price is 138.000 € http://www.tommimakinenracing.fi/tmr-offers2010.jpg so I cannot imagine where from the difference come from. The only thing I saw was a Powertrain display but that one was only 900 €. I don’t know if Subaru has homologated a new turbo yet but replacing the original adds some cost also. And everything extra adds also working hours.

The only work hours that was there was the reinforcement welding of the body shell 20 hrs, checking and balancing the engine parts 20 hrs and installation of the roll cage 80 hrs.

Tommi's business hasn't been doing so well and those are special prices. It is very possible that a moment ago normal price was 160k+.

[dimviii]

Tommi's business hasn't been doing so well and those are special prices. .

And i dont think that they have to go better...Just look at the price of the ''basic'' car at 88000 euros+vat with normal diffs and g-box :eek:

[navtheace]

Looking at the top of the TMR brouchure 'civil' car:

Prodrive website:
Prodrive has secured ESVA for the Subaru Impreza 2.0 WRX STi base car. This car can be officially registered in the UK by the DVLA.

Prodrive has a limited number of right hand drive base cars and left hand drive kits available upon request. The cars are for Motorsport use only and require mandatory roll cage installation before full UK registration will be provided.

Cars start at £22,000 + vat including UK registration

http://www.prodrive.com/up/STi%20donor%20car%201.jpg

[ProRally]

In Spain a EvoX RS (the correct spec) ex tax is around 28.000 euro for the base car. They are in the port of Barcelona in custom area. Not so many left...

[Sulland]

Good debut by the C3 R3T in the UK.
http://www.tynecomp.co.uk/Results/MSA_british_10/Ulster/1/stage/tindex.html

Any reports from Bouffier on how he found the car ?

[Sulland]

Any plans from Ford to build a Fiesta R3T ?

[pantealex]

Good debut by the C3 R3T in the UK.

DS3 R3T

[dimviii]

In Spain a EvoX RS (the correct spec) ex tax is around 28.000 euro for the base car. They are in the port of Barcelona in custom area. Not so many left...

much more in uk...

http://ll.speedhunters.com/u/f/eagames/NFS/speedhunters.com/Images/Jonathan%20Moore/2010-01-SUMOEVO/SH-SUMO2-JM06.jpg
also at ralliart uae much more.

[ProRally]

much more in uk...

http://ll.speedhunters.com/u/f/eagames/NFS/speedhunters.com/Images/Jonathan%20Moore/2010-01-SUMOEVO/SH-SUMO2-JM06.jpg
also at ralliart uae much more.

But LHD EvoX RS ?????????? :D :D

[dimviii]

yes they have and a lot of lhd X rs and in uk and more in uae.

[ProRally]

Perfect so there are enough spares...... :D :D :D

[dimviii]

Perfect so there are enough spares..... :D

enough is not the right word :D
http://ll.speedhunters.com/u/f/eagames/NFS/speedhunters.com/Images/Jonathan%20Moore/2010-01-SUMOEVO/SH-SUMO2-JM14.jpg

only pads they don t have ''enough'' :dozey:

http://ll.speedhunters.com/u/f/eagames/NFS/speedhunters.com/Images/Jonathan%20Moore/2010-01-SUMOEVO/SH-SUMO2-JM29.jpg

[navtheace]

Any update on the R classes? or is everything focussed on the september announcement by the FIA?

[ProRally]

Latest I heard out of Japan yesterday is that is 'really' looking good but as you say, 8 Sept WMSC is the date we have to wait for.

[HaCo]

Latest I heard out of Japan yesterday is that is 'really' looking good but as you say, 8 Sept WMSC is the date we have to wait for.

(Rumour)² = imagine this car (http://www.autoblog.com/2010/08/10/report-toyota-considering-rwd-hatch-to-commemorate-naruse/) in R3 class :D

[navtheace]

Latest I heard out of Japan yesterday is that is 'really' looking good but as you say, 8 Sept WMSC is the date we have to wait for.

Good stuff. Lets hope the 8th Sept brings good news for these categories.

[MJW]

Personally I am sceptical that Citroen and Ford will allow a change to the R categories, plus Mini have committed to the current "new wrc" format of 1.6T. However, there is a lot of talk of new manufacturers joining, and they are saying 2013, and new style rallies. Now I guess FIA and NOS and these potential new manufacturers are talking, so maybe there is something big about to be announced on Sept 8th.

[Sulland]

It seems strange that they kill off S2000 with aprox 250 cars made in a few years with several manufacturers, and then start the patchwork on Gr N that has one manufacturer active for the moment.

But lets see what they come up with.

My guess is that R4 will be made to be a spin off class from the new 1600T WRC, with a lot of parts standardized to keep the price down, but who knows ?
Hopefully they are able to make a strategic sound plan with the Top R class, and from a date say that from today all cars allowed in international rallies must be R1 - R4 or WRC.

The old Gr N and A cars will then be for only National series.

[Mirek]

In fact only Subaru and Mitsubishi want R4, all other manufacturers prefer S2000 based cares.

[Sulland]

Yes but now Mitsubishi has pulled the plug as well, have they not ?

[navtheace]

Personally I am sceptical that Citroen and Ford will allow a change to the R categories,

Remember that it is not about if Citroen and M Sport will allow the change or not, it is not up to them.

They have to follow the rules set by the FIA or not compete.

The current S2000 cars have become 'obsolete' already. People are dashing to sell their 2 litre S2000 rally cars knowing that they will become very hard to repair due to the manufacturers getting rid of all the spares etc.

Same will happen with S1.6T cars in a few years. Where will you get body panels for them?

One only needs to look at an early Impreza world rally car compared to Impreza GpA. Where does one get body parts for the world rally car Impreza?

[Mirek]

In my opinion You give too much importance to something what actually is just a minor secondary problem and don't see the real primary problems.

Yes, You're right that it's sometimes difficult to get spares for 10 years old cars. But such cars are anyway totally obsolete for any higher level of rallying and usually also banned from any FIA competition because of expired homologation. They are useful only for enthusiasts or for some club level competition, nothing else.

By the way something like Gr.A formula doesn't solve this problem anyway. It's much easier to get any spare parts for Octavia WRC than to find proper gr.A center differential for Escort Cosworth.

What is the real primary problem is that FIA must somehow make the manufacturers to create the cars. That means FIA must attract them to spend huge amount of money and time to work on it. I can assure You that manufacturers really don't care if their cars are easy to run by privateers after ten years of using. In fact it's opposite. They need to sell new cars, not to just supply old cars. Not mentioning zero marketing effect of already non-produced models.

Just have a look on numbers. Gr.N formula failed to attract anyone. It's here for ages and we still have only two cars - Lancer and Impreza and it's very unlikely that some other manufacturer joins. The fact that it's easy to build and service gr.N car is in fact a disadvantage for manufacturer as he is often out of that process and makes no money of that. They are well aware - that's why Mitsubishi put a lot of traps on bodyshell parts from which You can recognize evolutions - such as Evo IX built from Evo VII. It's easy to do so but Mitsubishi has no profit from that so they forbade such rebuilds and forced FIA to check it regularly.

In the same time You have 10 different S2000 cars homologated by FIA in just 4 years and more than 250 cars sold to customers with high dependence on manufacturer service. That's what manufacturers like as secondary services give reasonable profit potential.

What is also very important for manufacturer is the cost of such car - especially development, establishing and running production and after-sale service. For all of this Gr.N/A is the most expensive variant of all possibilities. I'm speaking about manufacturers and their needs as they decide if they start the program or not. To produce production based rally cars it's necessary to develop stock sports car from scratch, to establish production lines, to find market for such expensive sports car and to establish service in dozens of countries. Alltogether it requires thousands of people, let's say at least five years and costs billions. On the other hand to make S2000 based car is very easy for manufacturer and much less expensive. They can just use external companies with experience and suitable facilities such as M-Sport or Prodrive and don't care about anything else. It's proven that this way works.

[ProRally]

Remember that it is not about if Citroen and M Sport will allow the change or not, it is not up to them.

They have to follow the rules set by the FIA or not compete.
.....

Carefull, 'normally' it has to pass the manufacturers commission and both Ford and Citroën and lots of others are there....

[ProRally]

Yes but now Mitsubishi has pulled the plug as well, have they not ?

Ralliart is closed, but Mitsubishi will go on. There is small group of people who will still do homologation and follow up on parts, which still can be bought.

[navtheace]

Carefull, 'normally' it has to pass the manufacturers commission and both Ford and Citroën and lots of others are there....

This is the interesting part of how it works I guess.

Back in 96/97 when World Rally Cars came in, I guess the manufacturers were involved with the decision. Yet, over time they left the sport one by one as they didn't like how rallying became in many ways.

Citroen and M Sport will be on one side, subaru and mitsubishi on the other. Then you have other manufacturers and teams also present putting their views in.

F1 seems to be like this when manufacturers all team up to put proposals to the FIA.

[Sulland]

Carefull, 'normally' it has to pass the manufacturers commission and both Ford and Citroën and lots of others are there....

Who are the members of this commission as of today ?

[Sulland]

With Mini using a BMW engine, maybe we will see a BMW 1 series with the same engine, either in R3T RWD, or R4 or R5 (WRC)

Just for the record; The R category is illogical compared to the rest of the motorsportworld, Racing: F1, F2, Karting KF/KZ 1, 2, 3, MotoGP, Moto2, Rallycross Division 1 and 2 and so on.
Would be more logical to follow the same pattern in Rally and call the WRCar class R1, and the new R4 for R2, R3 stay the same, R2 = R4, R1 = R5, don't you agree ?

[navtheace]

Rallying needs to remain a sport where anyone can easily convert a road car to a rally car.

Which keeps entries to events to events with many many cars like 60 plus.

Otherwise rallying will become very small entries if the cars are specialist manufacturer only built/supplied.

[navtheace]

Tommorow is the day

[Sulland]

Is the meeting today, and a 1 day meeting - or are they having a 3 day meeting ?

[MJW]

WORLD RALLY CHAMPIONSHIP
The rally bit from today's FIA meeting
Commencing 2011 each World Rally Championship (WRC) event must include one special stage on the final day for the purpose of enhancing television coverage. The fastest drivers and co-drivers will be awarded additional points (3-2-1) in accordance with the general classification of this stage.

An FIA Production Car Cup for drivers of 2WD cars entered in the Production Car World Rally Championship (PWRC) will be introduced in 2011 to encourage competitors in Group R cars. At each round of the PWRC, a separate classification will be produced for the drivers of 2WD cars and points allocated according to the same scale as the Championship. The Production Car Cup will be awarded to the driver who has scored the highest number of points. As entrants in the PWRC, drivers of 2WD cars must nominate their events from a list and can score points in both the PWRC and Production Car Cup.

From 2011, cars eligible to contest the FIA Super 2000 World Rally Championship must have a normally aspirated engine with a cylinder capacity of less than 2000cc. There will be no FIA WRC Cup from 2011.

After the fourth event in the 2011 WRC calendar, Manufacturer and WRC Teams are permitted to use a maximum of two engines per car for the remaining nine events.

Commencing from 2011, all cars will start special stages at one-minute intervals, to increase interest for spectators.

From 2011, Priority 2 drivers who have contested more than two consecutive rounds of the World Rally Championship will be awarded Priority 1 status for the remainder of the season. These drivers must then comply with the regulations pertaining to WRC Teams.

A specialist group representing interested parties will review the possibility of introducing GT cars to WRC events.

The FIA in association with the WRC promoter will establish an Academy for young drivers.

[Alvaro_Rally]

WORLD RALLY CHAMPIONSHIP
The rally bit from today's FIA meeting
Commencing 2011 each World Rally Championship (WRC) event must include one special stage on the final day for the purpose of enhancing television coverage. The fastest drivers and co-drivers will be awarded additional points (3-2-1) in accordance with the general classification of this stage.

An FIA Production Car Cup for drivers of 2WD cars entered in the Production Car World Rally Championship (PWRC) will be introduced in 2011 to encourage competitors in Group R cars. At each round of the PWRC, a separate classification will be produced for the drivers of 2WD cars and points allocated according to the same scale as the Championship. The Production Car Cup will be awarded to the driver who has scored the highest number of points. As entrants in the PWRC, drivers of 2WD cars must nominate their events from a list and can score points in both the PWRC and Production Car Cup.

From 2011, cars eligible to contest the FIA Super 2000 World Rally Championship must have a normally aspirated engine with a cylinder capacity of less than 2000cc. There will be no FIA WRC Cup from 2011.

After the fourth event in the 2011 WRC calendar, Manufacturer and WRC Teams are permitted to use a maximum of two engines per car for the remaining nine events.

Commencing from 2011, all cars will start special stages at one-minute intervals, to increase interest for spectators.

From 2011, Priority 2 drivers who have contested more than two consecutive rounds of the World Rally Championship will be awarded Priority 1 status for the remainder of the season. These drivers must then comply with the regulations pertaining to WRC Teams.

A specialist group representing interested parties will review the possibility of introducing GT cars to WRC events.

The FIA in association with the WRC promoter will establish an Academy for young drivers.

No news!

I was expecting final technical regulations but we still have to wait...

I don´t understand anything about Production and S2000 cups... will they stay in 2011? Which cars will be admitted?

[RICARDO75]

"Commencing from 2011, all cars will start special stages at one-minute intervals, to increase interest for spectators."

This is stupid!
When there´s no wind on gravel rally, sometimes the drivers need 3 minuts for the dust to settled down.

[Mirek]

R4 will be discussed only at the end of September at WRC commission meeting.

[Sulland]

No news!

I was expecting final technical regulations but we still have to wait...

I don´t understand anything about Production and S2000 cups... will they stay in 2011? Which cars will be admitted?

Seems like SWRC will go as in 2010 with NA engine, PWRC will be discussed at the next meeting, according to Mirec, and JWRC will be with Some R Class, maybe R3 or R3T.

[Mirek]

SWRC - yes, it's going to be N/A 2000 ccm only with no team cup

PWRC - I think that it's already decided that it's going to be N4 + gr.R 2WD cars in separate 2WD Cup

JWRC - it won't be held in 2011 at all. WRC Academy will be instead of JWRC - one make 2WD Cup for Young drivers (should also host PSD 2010 winners). No champion title will be given.

R4 if adopted will start in PWRC only in 2012 in my opinion.

[urabus-denoS2000]

Finally , JWRC is no more :)

[navtheace]

2011 rules should be announced at the WMSC Extraordinary Meeting, Friday Sept 10th.

Any of this meeting for R categories? Or is all R stuff to be discussed end of Sept?

[navtheace]

is super production going to be different to R4?

Any news on restrictor sizes for WRC, R4, Super Production?

[OldF]

is super production going to be different to R4?

Any news on restrictor sizes for WRC, R4, Super Production?

Have a look at the 2011 fia rally car classes (http://www.rallyforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139632)

[navtheace]

Yeh, it looks like everyone will just have to wait for end of Sept for the official anouncement. As there is lots of talk on all the classes, a list of all the classes discussed on here.

R1
R2
R3
R3T
R4
S2000
Super Production
GT
S1.6T / World Rally Car

Which ones will be confirmed and what size turbo restrictors? Lets just wait.

[Gordini]

Yeh, it looks like everyone will just have to wait for end of Sept for the official anouncement. As there is lots of talk on all the classes, a list of all the classes discussed on here.

R1
R2
R3
R3T
R4
S2000
Super Production
GT
S1.6T / World Rally Car

Which ones will be confirmed and what size turbo restrictors? Lets just wait.

What about R3D and Hybrid ?

[ZequeArgentina]

and do not forget N4 but 2 wheel drive.
Renault is announcing the Megane N4 with 1000 kg.
Turbo with 33 mm restrictor!!!

[Mirek]

1000 kg? Not possible (first gr.N has minimum homologation weight - may be changed, I don't know - and second it's impossible to make Megane RS so light under gr.N regulations).

[Sulland]

So what are the GrN 2wd weight limits ?

[dimviii]

So what are the GrN 2wd weight limits ?

Don t know ,but no way near 1000kg.A renault megan to make it 1000 kg you have to cut a lot of metal from body. :D

[navtheace]

Renaults never had much metal in the bodywork panels anyway. lol

[Sulland]

and do not forget N4 but 2 wheel drive.
Renault is announcing the Megane N4 with 1000 kg.
Turbo with 33 mm restrictor!!!


http://translate.google.no/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.renaultsport.fr%2Ffr%2Frallye%2 Fmegane_n4%2Fnews.php%3Fnews%3D137380.html

Renault is actually making a 2wd gr N car, and it will debut at Rallye Du Var in November. Hm do they know something we dont about the new classes ?

[OldF]

There was few years ago a comparison between Renault Clio Sport 2.0 Ragnotti and Honda Civic Type R (EP3) in Vauhdin Maailma. The Renault weighted 1043 kg and the Honda 1151 kg. The minimum weight for the Renault is by the homologation 935 kg and for the Honda 1075 kg. As you can see they aren’t even near the min. weight and I think the weight of the Megane will be somewhere between 1100-1150 kg.

The weight limits for group N cars are individual except for 4WD cars homologated after 1.1.2006 the min. weight is 1350 kg.

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/7A6318BD676D7E14C125767F004AD619/$FILE/08_Bilan_GroupeN_9-11-2009-actuelles.pdf

[Mirek]

Today is the day of WRC commission meeting...

[navtheace]

Many are waiting for the outcome of this meeting. Lets see what is said on all these classes

R1
R2
R3
R3T
R3Diesel
R4
S2000
Super Production
GT
S1.6T / World Rally Car
GpN 2WD

[Sulland]

]Today is the day of WRC commission meeting...

Is it supposed to be a 1 day meeting, or several days ?

[OldF]

Is it supposed to be a 1 day meeting, or several days ?

At least Gerard Quinn will be there for three days, Monday – Wednesday.

www.twitter.com (http://www.twitter.com)
WRCgerardquinn “Arrive Cork airport. Home for 1 day then fly to Paris for FIA meetings Mon to Wed.” 8:32 PM Sep 24th via txt

WRCgerardquinn “Preparing for my meetings with the FIA tomorrow. Like winter here in the centre of Paris. Homesick - the usual Sunday blues.” 9:47 PM Sep 26th via web

[Sulland]

This meeting will decide the rallyfuture for years to come, so they better get it right !

Wonder if they ever are in on forums like this to check out what the close followers and fans mean. If they loose us, they loose the sponsors as well.

Lets hope they keep it real simple, and makes most of the classes affordable for a privateers - including WRC, so that we get the volumes we need of cars that can win, like in IRC !

Fingers crossed !


Maybe the 2wd Megane is will represent the R4 class we have been talking about, and that the upper classes will be SP and WRC as the two only 4wd cars ?

[navtheace]

Any news yet?

Lets hope for 34mm for R4

[OldF]

I was looking for something else but then I noticed this (where the header is “liitto tiedottaa”, date 9.9.10).

This is mostly about Finnish Championship but R4 would be an international class. The FIN R 4WD is basically group A regulations (34 mm restrictor etc.). Could this FIN R 4WD and proposed changes be a base for the R4 regulations.

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=fi&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autourheilu.fi%2F

Changes predictable in FIN R 4WD's technical regulations - cars to join the Finnish Rally Championship

N4, unfortunately, seems to be vanishing folklore among car manufacturers. The group has had two major car manufacturers, Mitsubishi and Subaru. N4 car sales have largely ceased after the new international class Super 2000's was introduced, and it made the transition to the national championships.

There are thousands of N4 cars in the world, and particular in the Nordic countries. In practice, we should consider how we could revitalize the category and to give these cars a little more lifetime. At the same time we are worried, of course, about the Finnish Rally Championship.

There has been made a proposal to FIA from Finland about new homologations for N4 cars and change the N4 regulations in line with the new R regulations to a R4 class. These cars would be based on the N4 homologations, but they’re weight could be reduced to R-group regulations and all parts would be homologated. The two car manufacturers want to make their cars faster to be able to better compete with Super2000 cars.

We believe that the direction is not entirely correct nationally. Our competition cars should be based on existing FIN-R 4WD rules, and the N4 cars shouldn’t either be excluded from the championship. Sure it would be possible to also participate with the future FIA R4-rules cars, of which is made in Finland own rules when the class is the first approved by FIA.

AKK-Motorsport has prepared a draft for FIN R 4WD's technical rules changes. Our proposal is based on the following points:

- N4 cars are not homologated any longer in the future and class will disappear from the world
- We need more cars to the Finnish Championship
- The car’s rules should be at nationally appropriate cost levels
- The cars should be able to been build in a "garage"
- Only parts based on homologations always increases the costs
- We do not deny the N4 cars, it would be still possible to fight for the Finnish Championship with N4 cars
- The existing WRC cars are unable to drive in the Finnish Championship with this rule changes made to the FIN 4WD class

Listing the proposed changes, FIN-R 4WD technical rules can be found here.

And the proposed changes are:
The model of the make should be of year 2000 or younger. FIA R4 homologation can be used.[/*:m:3tbdg1fb]
The min. weight would be 1130 kg.[/*:m:3tbdg1fb]
4.16. Exhaust system: waste gate is free, but the type and method of operation must be maintained. The exhaust system is free excluding the turbo.[/*:m:3tbdg1fb]
5.3. Final drive and differential: however, additional lubrication and cooling is allowed (a recirculating pump, radiator, air intake under the car) under the same conditions as in paragraph 4.14.[/*:m:3tbdg1fb]
6.7. Shocks: The anchorage of the top of the shocks may be increased up to 40 mm.[/*:m:3tbdg1fb]
10.1. Lightening and reinforcements: the material of the bonnet and the hatch of luggage compartment, front fenders, rear doors and rear spoiler can be changed, but the format will follow the original shape. The shape of the inner side is free or can be removed.[/*:m:3tbdg1fb]
10.3.1. Dashboard: The dashboard highest point in front of the steering wheel may be lowered but not more than 50 mm.[/*:m:3tbdg1fb]
10.3.7. Heating System: FREE[/*:m:3tbdg1fb]
10.2.6. Glasses: The windscreen and both front doors windows must be approved for road use, which will also be marked in the glass. Only mass-produced or homologated (minimum weight 9.2 kg) windscreens may be used. Laminated glass windshield is mandatory. The rear side windows and rear glass can be changed to plastic (original format), provided that they are transparent and the thickness of at least 3 mm.[/*:m:3tbdg1fb]

[Sulland]

When can we expect a press release from the meeting - today or tomorrow ?

[navtheace]

Some interesting stuff there.

Today is the day of the announcement! Do they get a 34mm restrictor?

[navtheace]

News from the FIA meeting is?

[OldF]

Q: KeH08 (http://twitter.com/KeH08) @WRCgerardquinn (http://twitter.com/WRCgerardquinn) Was there any decisions made during the Paris meeting concerning future technical regulations (WRC, R4)?

A: WRCgerardquinn (http://twitter.com/WRCgerardquinn) @KeH08 (http://twitter.com/KeH08) No definitive regulations for R4 at this time. It was discussed but final outcome yet to be given by FIA

[navtheace]

I hope all the other rally categories do not get forgotton about now that the new WRC 1.6 turbo category is bering pursued with M Sport, Citroen and prodrive.

It will be a shame, as it will just be like WRC 2 litre category all over again, when everything below just gets pushed to one side.

[navtheace]

Any updates on the R classes? Or is it not happening for now?

[MJW]

Any updates on the R classes? Or is it not happening for now?
There is something in Motorsport News today 13th Oct about Mini and R3. David Richards says priority has to be given to the 1.6T WRC car, but in 2012 Prodrive hope to have an R3 Mini, (2 wheel drive) to compliment the Citroen, and Renault cars in that class. DR says the future of Group N is unclear and something needs to fill the void from the Subaru / Mitsu Group N cars. Its only my opinion based on what I am reading, including the fact that JWRC's replacement will be R2, that a ladder structure is possibly coming in based on R2 (JWRC) and R3 (possibly PWRC replacement) and R4 (swrc?)being talked about. thus keeping WRC 1.6T as the pinnacle.

[Sulland]

So I guess they will use the new small Mini for the R Class ?

[Mirek]

Cooper S seems to be ideal for R3T class.

[navtheace]

Obviously, DR would say that. As he is involved with the new 1.6 world rally car category.

If there was only R1, R2, R3, R4 & R GT classes. The comments would be different.

MINI for R3T class is good news :)

[Mirek]

Fabia R2 gravel tests: http://forum.autosport.cz/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=498&sid=a002eabac9a1a7a7a542768a6e6ebdb0

[Sulland]

So when is the next FIA meeting that will decide on the 2011 car classes ?

[morganmilan]

So when is the next FIA meeting that will decide on the 2011 car classes ?
It seems to be next 3th of November

[navtheace]

Next week Wednesday sounds good!

Lets hope some good news :)

[morganmilan]

Will new Skoda Fabia R2 be R2B as Citroen C2, Ford Fiesta and Renault Twingo? If that, does anyone know if any make has got plans to develop any R2C car? Theoretically, it would be possible, but nobody appears to be interested. Which could be the reason? :confused: Thnx in advance

[Mirek]

Yes, it's R2B - 1600 ccm.

[morganmilan]

Yes, it's R2B - 1600 ccm.
Thnx a lot Mirek :)

[OldF]

I was looking if there’s any changes in the Finnish championship for 2011 and found this.

“Four-wheel drive Category

Four-wheel drive class i.e. SM1 in competition for more than 2000 cm3 of N-group, the FIA Super 2000 and R4 Rally rules. FIA R4 is new in season 2011, the classification rules are valid early 2011, so let’s see if they make it for the season.”

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=fi&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rallism.fi%2Fsarja%2F

[morganmilan]

Does anyone know if s1600 cars as Suzuki Swift or Citroen C2, etc are homologated as R variant at FIA lists? Maybe as R2B?

[OldF]

OK, let’s take it once more.

Suzuki only as S1600, Citroën C2 as both S1600 and R2B.

There are three main groups; group N, group A and group R. Pure group A cars don’t exist anymore but I would call WRC and S1600 as extension of group A.

Group N:

Group N is divided in four classes by the cylinder capacity.

N1: 1400 cm3 or less
N2: 1401-1600 cm3
N3: 1601-2000 cm3
N4: over 2000 cm3

N4:
Mitsubishi 4WD
Subaru 4WD
Renault Megane 2WD
All Super 2000 cars

These cars have a 2000 cm3 engine but with a turbo the nominal cylinder capacity is multiplied by 1.7, so the calculated engine capacity is 3400 cm3 i.e. over 2000 cm3.

Group A:

Group A is also divided in four classes by the cylinder capacity.

A5: 1400 cm3 or less
A6: 1401-1600 cm3
A7: 1601-2000 cm3
A8: over 2000 cm3 (includes also WRC)

All WRC cars

S1600:
Opel Corsa
Citroën Saxo (homologation ends 2010)
Citroën C2
Fiat Punto (homologation ends 2010)
Ford Puma (homologation ends 2010)
Ford Fiesta
Peugeot 206 (I’m not quite sure if it’s S1600, KS homologation)
Renault Clio
Suzuki Ignis
Suzuki Swift
VW Polo (homologation ends 2010)

Group R:

R1B:
Renault Twingo

R2B:
Ford Fiesta
Citroën C2
Renault Twingo

R3C:
Renault Clio
Honda Civic Type R

R3D:
Fiat Punto

R3T:
Citroën DS3
Fiat 500 Abarth
Peugeot 207

[OldF]

And of course I forgot something.

Group R:

R1A: up to 1400 cm3
R1B: over 1400 cm3 and up to 1600 cm3
R2B: over 1400 cm3 and up to 1600 cm3
R2C: over 1600 cm3 and up to 2000 cm3
R3C: over 1600 cm3 and up to 2000 cm3
R3T: up to 1600 cm3 (turbo)
R3D: up to 2000 cm3 (diesel)

R2B:
Skoda Fabia

[Andrey]

And of course I forgot something.
R2B:
Skoda Fabia

Also Lada Kalina already have international homologation in group A6/R2B.
This car equipped by 185 hp engine and 5-speed sequential gearbox.

[OldF]

Also Lada Kalina already have international homologation in group A6/R2B.
This car equipped by 185 hp engine and 5-speed sequential gearbox.


Do you know when it has been homologated? I can’t find the homologation. Maybe it’s that fresh that it’s not yet on FIA web site.

[Mirek]

R2B:
Skoda Fabia

Not homologated yet ;)

[morganmilan]

Thnx again for your information OldF, and sorry for my lacks of knowledge ;)

[ProRally]

Thnx again for your information OldF, and sorry for my lacks of knowledge ;)

There are NO stupid questions, only stupid answers.... :D :D :D

[Mirek]

Why? :D :D :D

[morganmilan]

There are NO stupid questions, only stupid answers.... :D :D :D
Certainly, but I know it may be rather hard to explain these matters to someone who has a little idea about that, when you are two or three floors over.. ;)

[ProRally]

Certainly, but I know it may be rather hard to explain these matters to someone who has a little idea about that, when you are two or three floors over.. ;)

Not to worry, that is why it is called a FORUM, not everything here is so serious...
Although some think so.... :D :D

[morganmilan]

Not to worry, that is why it is called a FORUM, not everything here is so serious...
Although some think so.... :D :D
Yep!! Some serious stuff, some fun!! Right ;)

[OldF]

Thnx again for your information OldF, and sorry for my lacks of knowledge ;)

Don’t be. Everyone has at some point started from the beginning. I’m only pleased if I have been some help.

[Sulland]

Any more info on the Lada Kalina ?

Saw some pics of it as S1600 a while back, did they make a R2 instead ?

[OldF]

Any more info on the Lada Kalina ?

Saw some pics of it as S1600 a while back, did they make a R2 instead ?

Go to post #162 on this thread.

[urabus-denoS2000]

So what is the difference between R2C and R3C ?

[Mirek]

R2C would have only 5-speed gearbox for example. There are more differences in the rules. In my opinion no-one is interested in such car simply because they have been starting in old FIA classes so far which means that both R2C and R3C would be in same A7 class with certain disadvantage for R2C.

[Barreis]

Cup cars..

[Sulland]

Go to post #162 on this thread.

Or here........ :p
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/search.php?searchid=454252

[RICARDO75]

Any more info on the Lada Kalina ?

Saw some pics of it as S1600 a while back, did they make a R2 instead ?

http://www.samara-lada.ru/photos/company/news/2007/kalina-sport.jpg
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:M_IeYp_s5ctWtM:http://uasort.com/uploads/posts/2008-02/1203331187_image_0.jpg&t=1

[navtheace]

Today is the day?

[ProRally]

YES, the news is in :

"RALLYING

From January 2011 a new Group R4 category will be created. A kit, homologated by the manufacturers of current Group N cars, will be made available for these 2-litre turbo Group N cars to ensure they can remain competitive with the Super 2000 cars.

To increase competition and the spectacle in all FIA Rally Championship events, the WMSC has agreed to the principle of studying technical regulations which may potentially permit GT cars to compete in these events."

[rallyrazz]

A link to the Press Release: http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/wmsc/2010/Pages/wmsc_031110.aspx

[Sulland]

YES, the news is in :

"RALLYING

From January 2011 a new Group R4 category will be created. A kit, homologated by the manufacturers of current Group N cars, will be made available for these 2-litre turbo Group N cars to ensure they can remain competitive with the Super 2000 cars.

But it does not say anything on what the kit can consist of, and limitations. So has the manufacturers been given more details then ?

To increase competition and the spectacle in all FIA Rally Championship events, the WMSC has agreed to the principle of studying technical regulations which may potentially permit GT cars to compete in these events."
This is perfect, but how long will they study for before they decide, are they aiming for 2012 ?

The easy solution for GR N is to map them for E85 and that alone maybe match them with S2000.

[dimviii]

e85 would be good/cheap but i am aware that fia is not going to make it cheap.Motorsport industry needs money.Have a better look here....'''will be created. A kit, homologated by the manufacturers '''

[OldF]

The easy solution for GR N is to map them for E85 and that alone maybe match them with S2000.

I don’t know how you can justify that. The N4 is behind S2000 in performance and by lowering the octane rate for N4 they will be even more behind. Lowering the octane rate means that you have lower the boost to prevent detonation, which means less power.

[Mirek]

E85 has octane number 104 according to commonly used RON method.

[OldF]

A book I have says that MON 85 compares to RON 92. I don’t know if MON 85 is same as E85. To have RON 105, the MON would be 95. But I suppose you know better.

[Mirek]

Racing gasoline is RON 102/MON 90. E85 is RON 104/MON 94.

[OldF]

Thanks Mirek. They’re both very close but I’m convinced that the racing fuel has better knock resistance and changing the fuel to E85 wont get the N4 par with S2000.

[navtheace]

Is it true that no more S2000 homologations are being given by the FIA?

ie to phase that category out?

[Mirek]

No, they continue, only with new 1.6T engine. Otherwise rules are same.

[OldF]

Remember reading somewhere (on this forum or elsewhere) that the super production cars (S2000 with 1.6T engine) wont be allowed next year.

[morganmilan]

Remember reading somewhere (on this forum or elsewhere) that the super production cars (S2000 with 1.6T engine) wont be allowed next year.
That surprises me. I thought the goal was forbidding more homologations in s2000 to let 1.6T take the place, but with both of car types running together :confused:

[Mirek]

Yes, they will run together but since 2012.

[OldF]

As I said I remember reading it somewhere but I could also have been dreaming. But in 2011 the cars in FIA Super2000 world rally championship must have a <2000 cm3 NA engine. At the moment there’s only one super production car, the Mini.

[Munkvy]

A book I have says that MON 85 compares to RON 92. I don’t know if MON 85 is same as E85. To have RON 105, the MON would be 95. But I suppose you know better.
E85 is called so as its 85% ethanol. Its not to do with the MON or RON rating.

As previously mentioned, it has quite high octane levels and allows you to run considerably more timing advance and higher boost levels than regular pump gas. Ethanol also burns alot cooler which has obvious advantages as well.

I thought E85 was already allowed by the FIA? It is used in the New Zealand national championship (which runs to FIA regulations) and is run by several of the top cars here. However its certainly not cheaper to run, as you use about 40% more than pump gas to travel the same distance and it is also more expensive than pump gas typically.

[OldF]

I’ve mixed up things now completely. I don’t know what I was thinking about but somehow I mixed E85 with ordinary 85-octane fuel.

In fact pure ethanol has very high knock resistance and also E85. The additional advantage of E85 is that it have also a cooling effect on the intake air/fuel mixture that’s enables higher compression ratios / higher boost = more power.

Sorry guys for the confusion, especially to you Sulland.

[Sulland]

No prob old man ! :p

Alcohol can be used for many things, even rallying !

But will 33mm restrictor and E85 be enough to match S2000 in R4 ?

[Sarac330d]

From what i have saw on various Evo 9 cars, they have more power
with E85 fuel, they use more fuel per km of SS than standard racing fuels and they can`t match top S2000 cars.
Mr. Klaus Schwemmin who mapped Evo 9 of my good friend also told that this fuel is better for engine,
engine has better cooling and combustion with this fuel.

It is also much cheaper, becouse racing fuel is from 3-5 eur/lit, depends of manufacturer of fuel.
This E85 is arround 1 eur/lit.

[OldF]

From what i have saw on various Evo 9 cars, they have more power
with E85 fuel, they use more fuel per km of SS than standard racing fuels and they can`t match top S2000 cars.
Mr. Klaus Schwemmin who mapped Evo 9 of my good friend also told that this fuel is better for engine,
engine has better cooling and combustion with this fuel.

It is also much cheaper, becouse racing fuel is from 3-5 eur/lit, depends of manufacturer of fuel.
This E85 is arround 1 eur/lit.

How much power was gained with the E85 compared to racing fuel?

[sindroms]

How much power was gained with the E85 compared to racing fuel?

If I remember correctly, Latvian 2009 N4 group champion Aivis Egle said - about 5% for Evo9...

[Sulland]

The Subaru cup cars in Norway use E85. They are not Gr N, but a re-mapped original engine. They are 280 hp and 580 nm.

But with full Gr N tuning, 33 mm restrictor and E85 re-map they should be potent. But not sure how much they take out on a full Gr N petrol today ?

But on a normal road car, they say E85 give 5-20% increase in hp using e85.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85_in_standard_engines

[navtheace]

DR says the future of Group N is unclear and something needs to fill the void from the Subaru / Mitsu Group N cars.

Clearer now that FIA announced R4 is go, everyone now awaits the R4 changes from N4.

[OldF]

What will the kit consist of?

Sequential gearbox
New subframes that allow longer wishbones (more suspension travelling)
34 mm restrictor
Camshafts with no variable timing
Pistons (I don’t know if they even need new pistons)
Connecting rods (as with the pistons)
Fuel system
ECU
Exhaust manifold & pipes
Similar interior as S2000
Bigger breaks
Hub carriers
Propeller shaft
Steering
Those allowed in group N (Anti roll bars, clutch, dampers, springs, struts, flywheel, hydraulic handbrake, mechanical LSDs, drive shafts etc.)
Something else?

[OldF]

So what is the difference between R2C and R3C ?

What I’ve found out beside what Mirek told about 5-gear gearbox is smaller brakes and slightly more freedom to upgrade the suspension and modifications to the body shell.

The R2C would be an underdog to the R3C because of smaller brakes but equal weight.

But what is obvious is that at least the Citroen C2 Base and Ford Fiesta R2 aren’t utilizing the regulations fully. The prices for the R2 kits are 18.400 € / 19.300 € (Citroen tarmac / gravel) and 23.500 € (both tarmac and gravel).

The R2 kit’s price for Renault Twingo is 27.990 € for tarmac (additional gravel kit 7.500 &#8364 ;) .

The R2 kit’s price for Citroen C2 Max is 34.000 € (both tarmac and gravel) which is 15.600 € more compared to the Citroen C2 Base tarmac kit.

[navtheace]

On the other topic.

R3D being 2 litre diesel with 32mm restrictor.

An avenue for VW with Scirocco or Golf?

R3T 1.6 turbo petrol with 29mm restrictor.

An avenue for MINI Cooper S and Fiesta that could get a 1.6 turbo petrol engine for the road car as announced yesterday.

All good, but these cars as rally cars will be oversahdowed by the WRC category cars. So they could not happen as manufacturers not interested in being the slow categories in the WRC.

[Mirek]

Cooper S probably will happen. David Richards said on totalrally radio that they will make R3 car.

[OldF]

Cooper S probably will happen. David Richards said on totalrally radio that they will make R3 car.

R3T?

[Mirek]

I think so

[navtheace]

The R3T mini will be great.

The news of the R4 category should be announced soon yes?

[morganmilan]

Is there any homologated car in R1A class? Is the Twingo the only one in R1B nowadays? Thnx in advance

[Sulland]

No R1A's homologated so far I think.

[morganmilan]

No R1A's homologated so far I think.
Thnx Sulland

[RICARDO75]

Words from Armindo Araújo after day one in Monza with the new Lancer R4:
"the R4 is starting its development.The car is very difficult to drive. It has plenty of power which makes the car more lively"

[dimviii]

non glass side windows for Araujos R4 in Monza ;)
http://www.rallylink.it/news//images/rsgallery/display/mrs10_10_110.jpg.jpg

[Sulland]

When is the next FIA meeting again ?

[ProRally]

Composition of the Motor Sport Commissions:

Commission President Vice President
Rally Commission J. Ashman (GBR) A.Barfull (ESP)
WRC Commission J. Mahonen (FIN) R. Reid (GBR)

Cross-Country Rally Commission N. Khalifa Al-Attiyah (QAT) F. Gallagher (GBR)
GT Commission C. Schacht (DEU) W. Wan (HKG)
Touring Car Commission A. Gow (GBR) A. Craig (USA)
Hill-Climb Commission P. Gutjahr (CHE) S. Minarik (CZE)
Historic Motor Sport
Commission
J. Hughes (GBR)

HRH Prince Joachim (DNK)
CIK/International Karting
Commission
A. Bin Isa Al-khalifa (BRN)

K. Van De Grint (NLD)

Off-Road Commission A. Lasure (BEL) W. Szaniawski (POL)
Drag Racing Commission G. Light (USA) L. Pettersson (SWE)
Truck Racing Commission M. Vidal (ESP) L. Galucci (BEL)
Electric And New Energy Championships
Commission
B. Goeschel (DEU)


B. Moretti (ITA)


Circuits Commission R. Peart (CAN) T. Schenken (AUS)
Homologation Commission D. Fausel (CHE) J. Berger (FIA)
Medical Commission Prof. G. Saillant (FRA) Prof. J. C. Piette (FRA)
Land Speed Records Commission D. Dean (USA) B. Swaner (SWE)
Safety Commission P. Wright (GBR) A. Mellor (GBR)
Women & Motor Sport Commission M. Mouton (FRA) R. Nabulsi (JOR)
Volunteers And Officials
Commission
J. Verdegay De La Vega (ESP)
J. Bartos (POL)

Single-Seater Commission B. Bland (GBR) M. Tahincioglu (TUR)


Date of next meeting

The next Annual General Assembly will take place at the same time as the Prize Giving in December 2011.

[Barreis]

After all successful man in the WRC seat..

[Mirek]

Jonathan Ashman is IRC/WTCC/Eurosport man. He should be ok too.

[GTA]

non glass side windows for Araujos R4 in Monza ;)
http://www.rallylink.it/news//images/rsgallery/display/mrs10_10_110.jpg.jpg


Will be great car for 2011..!. :)

[Sulland]

Will be great car for 2011..!. :)

Welcome back Imperatore !
How much do you know of the regulations for R4, and what has been done on the Evo X so far ?

[br21]

on polish website: http://rajdy.autoklub.pl/news/mitsubishi-homologuje-r4,33132
it is written that mitsubishi plans to homologate r4 kit on 1st january 2011.
they also write that Araujo's car in Monza had different gearbox (sequential as it was written on the forum some time ago), modificated drivetrain and brakes.

[modri dirkac]

on polish website: http://rajdy.autoklub.pl/news/mitsubishi-homologuje-r4,33132
it is written that mitsubishi plans to homologate r4 kit on 1st january 2011.
they also write that Araujo's car in Monza had different gearbox (sequential as it was written on the forum some time ago), modificated drivetrain and brakes.

Any videos showing Araujo in Monza? Maybe onboards? :D

[OldF]

From Jarmos’s corner in the latest “Sisäpiirin Uutiskirje” (Insider Newsletter)

http://www.nesteoilrallyfinland.fi/sisapiirinews/2010/sisapiirinuutiskirje1310/jarmoscorner/default.html

“We have looked at, although it does not fall within the World Commission of all, how to help the national series. N group seems to die in the future at international level. We admitted to N4 a number of technical innovations to the championship, so-called 'new R-group context. Of course, these exemptions wont make N4 car competitive against Super 2000 cars, but we are trying to the end.

None of the included car manufacturers do not want to give the Japanese any more concessions because in fact, the Japanese automotive industry is not actually involved in rally driving at all. I understand their views on the championship, but in the national championships the category should be given some “artificial respiration” for few years.”

[navtheace]

From seeing some photos of an R3 Citroen DS3 interior photos.

The dash is a non standard super lightweight special. Will the R4 Evos and Imprezas also be allowed this?

[RICARDO75]

Mathieu Arzeno onboard - CITROËN DS3 R3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io-HnPar5Dw

[navtheace]

Mathieu Arzeno onboard - CITROËN DS3 R3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io-HnPar5Dw

Go to 13 mins and get ready for the internal roof vent part? fall off inside the car.

What gearbox setup is that using?
29mm restrictor is allowing what kind of power?

[br21]

http://www.wrc.com/pwrc/news/subaru-and-mitsubishi-make-r4-progress/?fid=13971

WRC article about future of group R. not a lot of interesting things in it but still worth reading I think

[Mirek]

Go to 13 mins and get ready for the internal roof vent part? fall off inside the car.

What gearbox setup is that using?
29mm restrictor is allowing what kind of power?

Gearbox is 6-speed sequential operated via paddle shifter (I think electro-pneumatic similar to Honda Civic R3). Power is officially 210 Hp @ 4750 rpm and torque 350 Nm @ 3500 rpm.

[navtheace]

Thanks for info Mirek :)


Well, it's December and we now all wait for the official info from FIA on R4 restrictor size and the final regs of what Mitsubishi and Subaru will be following.

Lets hope the R classes are kept well defined

R1 - up to 1.6 near 'standard' 2WD
R2 - up to 1.6 with modifications 2WD
R3 - up to 2 litre petrol 2WD
R3T - 1.6 turbo petrol 2WD 29mm
R3D - 2 litre turbo diesel 2WD 32mm
R4 - 2 litre turbo petrol 4WD 33mm at the moment

Super Production to be seperate to R classes?

[morganmilan]

Thanks for info Mirek :)


Well, it's December and we now all wait for the official info from FIA on R4 restrictor size and the final regs of what Mitsubishi and Subaru will be following.

Lets hope the R classes are kept well defined

R1 - up to 1.6 near 'standard' 2WD
R2 - up to 1.6 with modifications 2WD
R3 - up to 2 litre petrol 2WD
R3T - 1.6 turbo petrol 2WD 29mm
R3D - 2 litre turbo diesel 2WD 32mm
R4 - 2 litre turbo petrol 4WD 33mm at the moment

Super Production to be seperate to R classes?
I would add R1 up to 1.4 (R1A) or 1.6 (R1B) and R2 up to 1.6 (R2B) or 2.0 (R2C)

[navtheace]

Updated list. Please fill inmissing info after the -

R1A - up to 1.4
R1B - up to 1.6
R1 - up to 1.6 near 'standard' 2WD
R2 - up to 1.6 with modifications 2WD
R2B -
R2C -
R3 - up to 2 litre petrol 2WD
R3T - 1.6 turbo petrol 2WD 29mm
R3D - 2 litre turbo diesel 2WD 32mm
R4 - 2 litre turbo petrol 4WD 33mm at the moment

[Mirek]

There is nothing like R1, R2 or R3 only (in terms of technical regulations).

R1 consists of R1A and R1B
R2 consists of R2B and R2C
R3 consists of R3C, R3D and R3T

[navtheace]

R1:
R1A - up to 1.4 ?
R1B - up to 1.6 near 'standard' 2WD

R2:
R2B - ?
R2C - ?

R3:
R3C - ?
R3T - 1.6 turbo petrol 2WD 29mm
R3D - 2 litre 2WD diesel 32mm

R4 - 2 litre turbo petrol 4WD 33mm at the moment

[Sarac330d]

Gearbox is 6-speed sequential operated via paddle shifter (I think electro-pneumatic similar to Honda Civic R3). Power is officially 210 Hp @ 4750 rpm and torque 350 Nm @ 3500 rpm.

Officially it is 210 hp with fuel from normal gas station, but i was on presentation of DS3 after Rallye du Var and one engineer from Citoren Racing told that car has arround 235-240hp on racing fuel.

[Mirek]

Aha, thanks

[navtheace]

What date is the FIA announcement for the R4 final regs?

[dimviii]

What date is the FIA announcement for the R4 final regs?

finally just weight reduction(also spares can move for better balance ie battery in trunk) and changes in subframes-arms for more suspension travel.Also top point of suspension can move up to 20mm(caster wise)
So no sequential dog-boxes or bigger restrictors.Written in Greek forum.

[OldF]

IMO the biggest problem with N4 is the driveability that is caused by less suspension travelling compared to S2000 and too small brakes vs. the weight. If the upper suspension attachment point can be moved to favour better caster will help in better stability in driving. Of course the power vs. weight is also very important issue.

[dimviii]

IMO the biggest problem with N4 is the driveability that is caused by less suspension travelling compared to S2000 and too small brakes vs. the weight. If the upper suspension attachment point can be moved to favour better caster will help in better stability in driving. Of course the power vs. weight is also very important issue.
don t think that brembo monoblock racing calipers/floating 355mm discs are bad brakes at all.Same with ap racing for slowbarus. :D

[navtheace]

From Sullands seperate topic of the FIA document. We have the following structure.

WRC
WRC (2011): 1.6 T engine with WRC kit

1
S2000-Rally: 1.6 T engine

2
S2000-Rally: 2.0 Atmospheric
Group R4

3
Group N car over 2000cc (actual N4)

4
RGT Cars

5
Group A car over 1600cc and up to 2000cc
Super 1600
R2C (over 1600cc and up to 2000cc)
R3C (over 1600cc and up to 2000cc)
R3T (up to 1600cc / nominal)
R3D (up to 2000cc / nominal)

6
Group A car over 1400cc and up to 1600cc
R2B (over 1400cc and up to 1600cc)
kit-car over 1400cc and up to 1600cc

7
Group A car up to 1400cc
kit-car up to 1400cc

8
Group N car over 1600cc and up to 2000cc

9
Group N car over 1400cc and up to 1600cc
R1B (over 1400cc and up to 1600cc)

10
Group N car up to 1400cc
R1A (up to 1400cc)

[Mirek]

This is valid only for WRC events, nothing else.

[OldF]

From Sullands seperate topic of the FIA document. We have the following structure.

WRC
WRC (2011): 1.6 T engine with WRC kit

1
S2000-Rally: 1.6 T engine

2
S2000-Rally: 2.0 Atmospheric
Group R4

3
Group N car over 2000cc (actual N4)

4
RGT Cars

5
Group A car over 1600cc and up to 2000cc
Super 1600
R2C (over 1600cc and up to 2000cc)
R3C (over 1600cc and up to 2000cc)
R3T (up to 1600cc / nominal)
R3D (up to 2000cc / nominal)

6
Group A car over 1400cc and up to 1600cc
R2B (over 1400cc and up to 1600cc)
kit-car over 1400cc and up to 1600cc

7
Group A car up to 1400cc
kit-car up to 1400cc

8
Group N car over 1600cc and up to 2000cc

9
Group N car over 1400cc and up to 1600cc
R1B (over 1400cc and up to 1600cc)

10
Group N car up to 1400cc
R1A (up to 1400cc)

This could also be put this way.

Class WRC: 1.6T engine + WRC kit
Class 1: S2000 with 1.6T engine
Class 2: R4 and S2000 with 2.0 NA engine
Class 3: N4
Class 4: RGT
Class 5: A7, S1600, R2C, R3C, R3T and R3D
Class 6: A6, R2B and Kit cars >1400 cm3 – 1600 cm3
Class 7: A5 and Kit cars < 1400 cm3
Class 8: N3
Class 9: N2 and R1B
Class 10: N1 and R1A

[navtheace]

Yep.

Class WRC: 1.6T engine + WRC kit
Class 1: S2000 with 1.6T engine
Class 2: R4 and S2000 with 2.0 NA engine
Class 3: N4
Class 4: RGT
Class 5: A7, S1600, R2C, R3C, R3T and R3D
Class 6: A6, R2B and Kit cars >1400 cm3 – 1600 cm3
Class 7: A5 and Kit cars < 1400 cm3
Class 8: N3
Class 9: N2 and R1B
Class 10: N1 and R1A

Then to take out the categories that manufacturers are not homologating in anymore and S2000 which is no new homologations after end Dec 2010.
This is what will happen over time (a long time!)

Class WRC: 1.6T engine + WRC kit
Class 1:
Class 2: R4
Class 3:
Class 4: RGT
Class 5: R2C, R3C, R3T and R3D
Class 6: R2B
Class 7:
Class 8:
Class 9: R1B
Class 10: R1A

[morganmilan]

Yep.


Then to take out the categories that manufacturers are not homologating in anymore and S2000 which is no new homologations after end Dec 2010.
This is what will happen over time (a long time!)

Class WRC: 1.6T engine + WRC kit
Class 1:
Class 2: R4
Class 3:
Class 4: RGT
Class 5: R2C, R3C, R3T and R3D
Class 6: R2B
Class 7:
Class 8:
Class 9: R1B
Class 10: R1A
Maybe I´m wrong, but AFAIK, s2000 new cars can´t be homologated from 2011 with 2000cc NA engines, but 1.6T can be, so "class 1" would be still ok

[OldF]

don t think that brembo monoblock racing calipers/floating 355mm discs are bad brakes at all.Same with ap racing for slowbarus. :D

I’ve understood that the brake pads for group N can’t be bigger than the original ones and using bigger brake disks won’t change the braking power but there must be some reason for using bigger brake discs. Of course the Brembo and AP Racing brakes used are made for rally use with some heavier usage than standard brakes.

I’ve been trying to compare S2000 and homologated group N break disks, and they seem to be the same size. Rear gravel/tarmac brake discs 300 mm and tarmac front discs 355 mm and gravel front brake discs 300 mm (which are actually smaller than the original ones for both Mitsubishi and Subaru).

I don’t know the brake pads sizes of S2000 cars but maybe the brake pads size of the original for Mitsubishi and Subaru are enough to give enough braking power.

Those who know better can explain this. If the braking powers of the group N brakes were OK with the current brakes then the problem would be to get some weight of from the R4 cars, with reasonable costs.

[Mirek]

To brake rotating wheel You need braking torque. The torque is a multiplication of braking force and disc effective radius.

Braking force is normal force multiplied by friction coefficient (changeble with temperature or pad state for example). Normal force on brake pads is caused by hydraulic pressure via brake pistons.

It's not good to compare stock and racing brakes as racing systems doesn't use brake booster to prevent time delay (they use larger brake cylinders) and for better feeling in brake pedal.

Anyway the larger the disc, the bigger brake torque and the better cooling (larger area means more heat exchange). But it also means bigger wheel inertia which negatively affects both acceleration and deceration. Therefore You have to think about ideal dimensions for both axles (each one have different adhesion).

In group N cars the problem is mostly in weight. Very simpliffied: For some decelaration "a" of a weight "m" You need some force "F". If You have same F for both S2000 and gr.N You can easily compare difference in decelartion a=F/m. That's the simplies case when both braking on 100% and have same adhesion (same tyres, suspension, weight ballance etc.) and same cooling, which is another problem.

[OldF]

Thanks Mirek.

I dug up and old book that I bought when I was a young boy and did some reading. Now I’m more aware of what you wrote.

You know, the physics haven’t changed at all during these years. :)

[urabus-denoS2000]

It's always fascinating for me to read the conversations of you 2 .... Thanks Mirek and OldF ;)

[morganmilan]

Thanks Mirek.

I dug up and old book that I bought when I was a young boy and did some reading. Now I’m more aware of what you wrote.

You know, the physics haven’t changed at all during these years. :)
Newtonian mechanics, at least... :D

[OldF]

It's always fascinating for me to read the conversations of you 2 .... Thanks Mirek and OldF ;)

Thanks for the compliment. :)

We work as a team. I ask the questions and Mirek give the answers. :D