Toyota quits F1 *confirmed*

[veeten]

Looks like that date will decide more than we'll ever know...

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/091103090718.shtml

[christophulus]

I'll be surprised if Toyota are still in F1 next year, everything is pointing towards an exit. Kobayashi might find a seat at Lotus or somewhere though, he deserves another chance.

[gloomyDAY]

My birthday....?

[ClarkFan]

My birthday....?
No, my birthday!

:p

ClarkFan

[paddocknews]

It is being reported by Japanese newspaper Mainichi Daily News that the Toyota board have decided to pull out of Formula 1

“Toyota Motor Corp., the world’s greatest motor racing, Formula One (F1) has decided to withdraw as far as this year.”

http://www.formula1blogger.com/2009/11/03/toyota-future-in-doubt-announcement-sunday/

[ioan]

Mercedes were being rumored to do the same 6 months ago, only for them to go on and buy into a 2nd team. :D

[Blancvino]

I have a pint of ale that say they close shop.

[Nikki Katz]

I don't really know what to make of this. We've known all along that they haven't had their budget secured for next year and could theoretically pull out at this meeting, the rough date of which has been known for ages. Yet they've been adamant they're going nowhere. Maybe they just haven't told the team either.

I'm definitely expecting a large cut in the budget. I'm not expecting them to pull out, but I wouldn't be shocked if they did.

[ioan]

I suppose to counteract that arguement would be to suggest that Mercedes haven't got a long history of being Shyte... :)

I suppose Toyota is the biggest car manufacturer, bigger than Mercedes for a reason, they sure must be doing something right.

[ioan]

I don't really know what to make of this. We've known all along that they haven't had their budget secured for next year and could theoretically pull out at this meeting, the rough date of which has been known for ages. Yet they've been adamant they're going nowhere. Maybe they just haven't told the team either.

I'm definitely expecting a large cut in the budget. I'm not expecting them to pull out, but I wouldn't be shocked if they did.

All the teams are taking a huge budget cut next season, no need for all that money with all the limitations in place, wind tunnel and CFD are limited to about a 3rd of what they were, in season testing is banned, 8 engines/driver for the whole season and so on.
200 millions will be most they would need even with Kimi like driver salaries.

Maybe Kobayashi doing so well in Abu Dhabi will be enough to keep the Toyota Board happy, and than there's Toyoda being a motorsport enthusiast, so not everything is lost.

[truefan72]

they will be back for 2010

the economic tide is turning

and they will stay in precisely for the fact that Honda pulled out and actually embarrassed themselves for leaving a championship team for nothing. If toyota pulls out, there will be a hal dozen suitors to buy them and I fully expect that car to be on the podium next year.

[Malbec]

they will be back for 2010

the economic tide is turning

and they will stay in precisely for the fact that Honda pulled out and actually embarrassed themselves for leaving a championship team for nothing. If toyota pulls out, there will be a hal dozen suitors to buy them and I fully expect that car to be on the podium next year.

Toyota are set to publish quarterly results that are again in the red whilst Honda hasn't actually made a loss this recession. The pressure is intense not only to cut costs but to be seen to be doing so especially when Toyota is going to have to permanently reduce its production capacity soon.

Where are half a dozen suitors going to come from? The same ones that pushed Honda into selling to the team management? The same ones that crowded BMW? There isn't anyone out there with the money to buy into a team these days.

The only thing keeping Toyota in is the cost of winding down their team in Germany. If they can't find a buyer (and I doubt they will) they might be happy just finding a partner to share costs with. Thats the most optimistic scenario I think.

[gloomyDAY]

Toyota is going to bail.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80002

What a disgrace! All that time and money and not a single win.

[V12]

I suppose Toyota is the biggest car manufacturer, bigger than Mercedes for a reason, they sure must be doing something right.

Being the biggest volume road car manufacturer, and being quickest on the track are two entirely different things.

I've mixed feelings about their impending departure (OK it isn't confirmed yet, but no smoke without fire and all that), good news for the traditional kind of F1 team that exists purely to go racing rather than as a car manufacturer/energy drink/Indian billionaire's marketing vehicle, but I hope this trend isn't going to allow the FIA to sneak their spec-engine wet dream in through the back door...oh well at least Max isn't around anymore!

Although this means that if Notts County F1 can't come up with the goods we'll only have 12 teams next year instead of 13 :(

[Saint Devote]

Such a pity - Max was right after all.

[gloomyDAY]

Such a pity - Max was right after all.Uh oh. You're gonna get banned! :)

[Koz]

Could we get a poll in here to see how many of us think toyota will stay and how many think they will go?
Would be interesting to see the mass consensus .

[macksrallye]

Whatever happens with F1 I sincerely hope they don't dissappear from international motorsport altogether. They have the capacity within their base in cologne to take on a WTCC or WRC/IRC campaign and that will probably cost them a hell of a lot less than F1 has, for one, you don't pay rally drivers, they pay to drive your car... don't they?

[Shifter]

For a company not selling performance as a feature of their vehicle lineup, what's the point of racing? Surely not a single Camry was sold due to their motorsports efforts, but I bet some C-Classes were.

[CNR]

http://www.timeslive.co.za/sport/Motorsport/article179081.ece

Toyota to quit F1


:confused:

Toyota Motor is expected to announce it is quitting Formula One, joining an exodus of Japanese automakers from the multi-million dollar sport due to the global economic crisis

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_5673022,00.html

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Toyota-Formula-One-Japan/Article/200911115433212

http://www.automotiveworld.com/news/oems-and-markets/79291-japan-toyota-to-withdraw-from-formula-one

[DexDexter]

Toyota is going to bail.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80002

What a disgrace! All that time and money and not a single win.

Another car manufacturer walks away without any consideration to what it does to F1. Fortunately this will open the way for Sauber to remain in F1, so at least we'll have a decent team there.


For a company not selling performance as a feature of their vehicle lineup, what's the point of racing? Surely not a single Camry was sold due to their motorsports efforts, but I bet some C-Classes were.

Camry? You mean Avensis? :D

[DexDexter]

For a company not selling performance as a feature of their vehicle lineup, what's the point of racing? Surely not a single Camry was sold due to their motorsports efforts, but I bet some C-Classes were.

Camry? You mean Avensis? :D

[VkmSpouge]

It's a shame for all those people who are about to lose their jobs at Toyota and Kamui Kobayashi who I really hope lands a race seat for next season in F1. However I can understand Toyota's decision, they must have spent billions (I don't think that is an exaggeration) and got a handful of podiums for their troubles. Of course they only have themselves to blame.

Still as one door closes and another opens, I hope Sauber have a good 2010 season.

[christophulus]

If Toyota leave they'll be shutting down their factory and making hundreds redundant. I can't see a Ross Brawn or Peter Sauber coming along to save the team.. there's going to be massive job losses here.

[Dave B]

I suppose to counteract that arguement would be to suggest that Mercedes haven't got a long history of being Shyte...in Formula One or making overweight, ugly, clunky, inefficient, pointless, environmentally-unfriendly and hopeless hybrid roadcars :p

Bye bye Toyota :wave:

I really feel for those who stand to lose their jobs, but Toyota's F1 programme must surely stand as a lesson to anybody who believes that money buys success. They never "got" F1, with decisions taking an age to filter through the board and a history of mediocre drivers on their books (I'm looking at you, Ralf).

[DexDexter]

Reports are spreading all over the news now and its official. :(

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8341602.stm

Sad day for F1, good day for Sauber and Mr. Theissen who now probably doesn't have to get involved with touring cars or whatever...

[ArrowsFA1]

As with Honda you wonder whether Toyota would be withdrawing if they were winning races. The "current severe economic realities" rather go hand in hand with the lack of success IMHO.

Ultimately this is what manufacturers do, and have done for years, where F1 is concerned. They come and go when circumstances suit them. Whether any of the new 2010 teams will be around for as long as Toyota were only time will tell.

[MrJan]

Another car manufacturer walks away without any consideration to what it does to F1.

Another F1 fan spouts off without any consideration of what an F1 programme does to the finances of a manufacturer.

It's sad for Toyota and their employees but F1 just costs too much money and if it isn't helping to shift cars then there isn't much point in it.

[DexDexter]

Another F1 fan spouts off without any consideration of what an F1 programme does to the finances of a manufacturer.

It's sad for Toyota and their employees but F1 just costs too much money and if it isn't helping to shift cars then there isn't much point in it.

Well, they could maintain presence in F1 using very little cash. They've got engines they could supply to teams. Why not link up with Sauber or something, wouldn't cost much and if it worked, they'd still get publicity? Obviously that would make too much sense. Same goes for BMW, they've got many engines that are useless now, why not keep in touch with F1 by supplying a team that is willing to pay for the engines? It would make a possible comeback much easier in the future.

[Storm]

Nice. :\

Losing 3 manufacturers in quick succession (and possibly Renault too in the future) isn't very good news but then losing Toyota is not that bad really.

Ugly looking cars, dull liveries, not enough ambition in the driver market and not winning anything inspite of all the money they had..I never warmed up to their F1 team (neither am I a huge fan of their road cars but atleast they try hard and succeed in that segment) but we do need some Japanese presence in F1 in the future.

[I am evil Homer]

As with Honda you wonder whether Toyota would be withdrawing if they were winning races. The "current severe economic realities" rather go hand in hand with the lack of success IMHO.

Ultimately this is what manufacturers do, and have done for years, where F1 is concerned. They come and go when circumstances suit them. Whether any of the new 2010 teams will be around for as long as Toyota were only time will tell.

To an extent that could be a factor but you must also remember these firms have made many, many people redundant in Japan and are under severe governement and union pressure to downsize while their profits plunge.

Right now F1 is an excess Toyota doesn't really need, because as other have said they concentrate on smaller cars/hybrids and that doesn't tie into F1 at all.

Still it doesn't come as a great surprise. Feel terrible for the staff in Cologne who i hope can find employment at another team, or someone can take over the facility for motorsport activity of some description. Also bad news for Koba who has already said he has no budget for GP2 in 2010

[DazzlaF1]

To an extent that could be a factor but you must also remember these firms have made many, many people redundant in Japan and are under severe governement and union pressure to downsize while their profits plunge.

Right now F1 is an excess Toyota doesn't really need, because as other have said they concentrate on smaller cars/hybrids and that doesn't tie into F1 at all.

Still it doesn't come as a great surprise. Feel terrible for the staff in Cologne who i hope can find employment at another team, or someone can take over the facility for motorsport activity of some description. Also bad news for Koba who has already said he has no budget for GP2 in 2010

Aye, we all thought he would be nailed on for a drive in 2010 after sundays good showing, now theres a bit of doubt in it. Still though its great news for Thiessen and Sauber as this announcement means they've just got themselves back in, heres hoping that spending the last few months in limbo about their future has not hindered them when it comes to developing their 2010 car.

What im concerned about though is Toyota signing the new Concorde Agreement back in the summer, does this announcement mean they are now in breach of that contract and that Ecclestone and the FIA have a good case to take to court?

[F1boat]

I think that this proves something which many people felt. The corporate approach fails to deliver in Formula 1. We saw it with Toyota, we saw it with BMW and with Honda as well. Yes, Honda built that wonderful car which won the WDC and the WCC, but it was the small team of Brawn which guided it to success. I think that at the beginning of the season Rubens Barrichello admitted that the atmosphere in Brawn GP makes for the success, as it is different from the atmosphere in Honda. BMW were also more successful with "Williams" than as a manu team. I think that this should show manufacturers that it is better for them to ally themselves with racing teams with racing thinking, like Mercedes did with McLaren and Ross Brawn. And don't point me Ferrari and Renault. We all know that Ferrari is pure racing team and Renault is the old Benetton.

[ArrowsFA1]

To an extent that could be a factor but you must also remember these firms have made many, many people redundant in Japan and are under severe governement and union pressure to downsize while their profits plunge.
That's a fair point :up: but there is always pressure on a company like Toyota to justify the expense of something like F1. That pressure will have been increasing since 2002 given their comparative lack of success.

Whether it was economics, or their wish to direct money into their road cars, there was always going to be a tipping point at which the Toyota board said 'no more'. Had things been different that may have been after they had won races and championships.


Still it doesn't come as a great surprise. Feel terrible for the staff in Cologne who i hope can find employment at another team, or someone can take over the facility for motorsport activity of some description. Also bad news for Koba who has already said he has no budget for GP2 in 2010
:up:

[Saint Devote]

Uh oh. You're gonna get banned! :)

Wag! :eek: :)

[Dave B]

What im concerned about though is Toyota signing the new Concorde Agreement back in the summer, does this announcement mean they are now in breach of that contract and that Ecclestone and the FIA have a good case to take to court?

It seems that way:


"The news is going to cost Toyota a great deal of money. It will not only have to lay off its huge staff in Cologne, but will also have to reach a financial settlement with the Formula One group as it had committed to staying in F1 until the end of 2012. There are now likely to be discussions about how much money Toyota will have it pay in compensation to get out of its commitments made when it signed the new Concorde Agreement."

Source: Joe Saward ( http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2009/11/04/toyota-confirms-pullout/ )

However, it does make the team more attractive to any potential buyers, if there are some out there.

[I am evil Homer]

Are the engines made in Cologne? Coudl someone take that side over?

[AndyRAC]

Hardly a huge shock - a perfect example of how not to run a F1 team. Lean/Six Sigma may work with their Manufacturing, but is far too slow for Motorsport, when instant decisions are often needed. A perfect example of why Manufacturers are only in it for themselves, and not the sport.
Just what on earth were they meant to be promoting though? Are there any 'Sporting' Toyota cars?

[N. Jones]

I have heard that when a team doesn't have guys with racing experience running a racing team (see BMW) that team's expectations will never be met.

The only problem now is engines. I'm not sure that four suppliers will be enough.

[I am evil Homer]

Should be - Merc can supply 4 teams (McLaren, Brawn, FI and 1 more), Renault are still there, Cosworth is powering the new teams + Williams. All depends if anyone wants/is allowed to use Ferrari engines.

But it seems absured that BMW and Toyota have the facilities that could be lost.

[Mark]

Indeed it would be crazy to see the BMW and Toyota factories just shut down and the staff dismissed, when we have new teams having to set up their own bases.

Lets hope they get bought out by someone.

I think after Honda withdrew from F1 then Toyota's departure was inevitable. They only seem to exist to compete with each other.

You watch someone will buy out the Toyota team and then they'll go on to win both championships next year!

[veeten]

Thanks, Mark, for changing the headline of my thread. Keeps things up to date about the demise of Toyota F1. :up:

I believe that the Cologne HQ will be decommissioned back to TTE, and resume their previous pograms; GT/Sportscar/Touring Car and WRC. They were on the front about using their Hybrid work to produce a LMP to fit the new 'green' challenge in ALMS & LMS, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for them.

[Mark]

Thanks, Mark, for changing the headline of my thread. Keeps things up to date about the demise of Toyota F1. :up:

Wasn't me! Thank pino! :cool:

[Rudy Tamasz]

Good bye and good riddance, Toyota and big bucks! I hope we are returning to privateer teams and real racing.

[veeten]

Okay. :D

[veeten]

Good bye and good riddance, Toyota and big bucks! I hope we are returning to privateer teams and real racing.

In their simplest form, Rudy, that's what the new teams are all about. ;)

[Mark]

Although it is sad to see any team leaving the sport, especially an engine supplier, but Toyota never really contributed anything to F1. They were the most anonymous of teams and never amounted to anything. So they won't be missed.

[I am evil Homer]

TTE could in theory run an IRC campaing from there using the Auris S2000 but I doubt it will happend. And why runs an ALMS programme from Germany? Are they confirmed for LMS in 2010?

[wedge]

There's been rumours that Toyota could be back at Le Mans with a hybrid.

[nigelred5]

Good bye and good riddance, Toyota and big bucks! I hope we are returning to privateer teams and real racing.

I'll second that. I'm no fan of Toyota in racing or their road cars. Toyota has a history of entering a series, driving racing budgets through the stratosphere, driving off competition in many instances, then pulling the plug, leaving the series anfhte teams they leave behind to flounder. I've said all along I'd prefer to see manufacturer involvement limited to contract engine supply.
Thankfully, like him or laothe him, Mosely did foresee the departure of manufacturers coming and forced changes. I'll be curious to see if the Cologne team (with a signature on the concorde agreement and a spot in F1 for 2010) a finds a quick buyer to snap up that place in pit lane or if Sauber will now be granted a spot for 2010.

Kinda starting to remind me of the 70's all over again with a bevy of privateer teams and half a grid full of cozzies going up against Mclaren, Ferrari and Renault. Can we just get that Lotus painted in JPS livery!!! Lets hope the competition and the racing is half as good as I remember it back then.

[veeten]

And why runs an ALMS programme from Germany? Are they confirmed for LMS in 2010?

Why not? Audi, originally, ran their LMP program from Germany, even though they raced their cars in ALMS in the US, and later in the LMS.

Peugeot slated their cars for the LMS but did Sebring, Petit LeMans, and Laguna Seca.

Honda (Acura) has only recently sold one of their ARX-01 to an european team for duty in LMS in the P2 category, and they're built in the US.

So, it's not too hard to fathom...

[ArrowsFA1]

Mosely did foresee the departure of manufacturers coming...
He predicted the outcome of the FIA Presidential election as well.

It helps being able to influence these kind of things :p :

[Big Ben]

Good riddance. Never come back. I'm amazed they didn't express their full commitment to f1 in their farewell announcement.

[veeten]

He predicted the outcome of the FIA Presidential election as well.

It helps being able to influence these kind of things :p :

Yup, It does make you wonder,... 'How does he do it?..." ;) :p

[WSRfan82]

Good riddance. Never come back. I'm amazed they didn't express their full commitment to f1 in their farewell announcement.

Good riddance? your joking

ive enjoyed having Toyota in F1 even though they didn't win much but are in my view one of the best teams to take part in modern F1 and i will miss seeing Toyota in F1

[Shifter]

Camry? You mean Avensis? :D

Ha, sorry I know it's a global forum but I didn't feel like researching the other names their cars go by, thanks for the correction!

[Big Ben]

Good riddance? your joking

ive enjoyed having Toyota in F1 even though they didn't win much but are in my view one of the best teams to take part in modern F1 and i will miss seeing Toyota in F1

I didn't mind them it's just that I'm sick of this PR BS we have to read all the time.

[I am evil Homer]

John Howett's credibilty has be thrown into question now the opposite of what he has been pledging has happened IMO... He even told a reporter they were stupid for suggesting Toyota were pulling the plug, unless of course he has been humiliated and pushed aside by the powers that be..

Wait. What? John Howett had credibility...when was this?!? ;)

[ClarkFan]

I think that this proves something which many people felt. The corporate approach fails to deliver in Formula 1. We saw it with Toyota, we saw it with BMW and with Honda as well. Yes, Honda built that wonderful car which won the WDC and the WCC, but it was the small team of Brawn which guided it to success. I think that at the beginning of the season Rubens Barrichello admitted that the atmosphere in Brawn GP makes for the success, as it is different from the atmosphere in Honda. BMW were also more successful with "Williams" than as a manu team. I think that this should show manufacturers that it is better for them to ally themselves with racing teams with racing thinking, like Mercedes did with McLaren and Ross Brawn. And don't point me Ferrari and Renault. We all know that Ferrari is pure racing team and Renault is the old Benetton.
It really would be better to see the major manufacturers just come into F1 as engine suppliers only. I think that McLaren-Mercedes has largely worked due to Daimler's willingness to be a silent partner in the team, and their initiative to buy into Brawn is fraught with hazard for both parties.

ClarkFan

[scaliwag]

It gives me no pleasure in writing this, however I've warned the forum on many occasions that manufacturers are not the life blood of F1 they could well be it's death knell, and as usual I've been ridiculed and once or twice abused for my views, however I stick to my guns, No manufacturer should be allowed to have a factory team, if they wish to be involved, they should only be allowed to support independent teams.

I expect in the not to distance future to hear that Renault are quitting. I make this observation, Ford, BMW, and Toyota all sighted the reason for leaving F1 as financial, between the three of them they have poured hundreds of millions into F1 for no discernable results, whilst Williams who run on a shoestring are still there and competing, long live the independents.

Regards scaliwag.

[ClarkFan]

Hardly a huge shock - a perfect example of how not to run a F1 team. Lean/Six Sigma may work with their Manufacturing, but is far too slow for Motorsport, when instant decisions are often needed. A perfect example of why Manufacturers are only in it for themselves, and not the sport.
Just what on earth were they meant to be promoting though? Are there any 'Sporting' Toyota cars?
No. They have been flogging a "sporting" Lexus at car shows lately, but given the brand heritage it seems likely to come in as a luxury item if it gets produced. The last MR2 was a fine sports car (no luggage capacity at all, though), and they never knew how to market it. Toyota put their version of the engine that Lotus uses in the Corolla, but never thought that it might be good to add that 40hp to a sports car.

Honda's problem with sporting cars have been slightly different. They introduced tour-de-force designs with no connection to the ordinary product line (NSX, S2000). Then the volume on the one-off designs never justified a full production update, so a brilliant car was slowly outstripped as the competition improved their cars.

I suppose that with both manufacturers, you could argue that their failures with sporting cars and F1 came from the same conceptual problems. :\

ClarkFan

[scaliwag]

__________________________________________________ __________
It really would be better to see the major manufacturers just come into F1 as engine suppliers only. I think that McLaren-Mercedes has largely worked due to Daimler's willingness to be a silent partner in the team, and their initiative to buy into Brawn is fraught with hazard for both parties.
__________________________________________________ ___________

Couldn't agree more CF, if Mec manufacture a good engine they should market that engine by selling it to any team that wishes to buy it, so for instance we would have Lotus Mec, Brawn Mec,etc etc.

Regards scaliwag.

[truefan72]

I am sad and slightly surprised by this decision.

I think the team might be sold to a willing buyer and we might yet see the team in 2010 or at the very latest 2011, probably with mercedes engines.

[truefan72]

It really would be better to see the major manufacturers just come into F1 as engine suppliers only. I think that McLaren-Mercedes has largely worked due to Daimler's willingness to be a silent partner in the team, and their initiative to buy into Brawn is fraught with hazard for both parties.

ClarkFan


being a car manufacturer is not the reason for their departure.

I remind you that amount of independent teams that folded or left F1 far outnumbers the few manufacturers that ventures into the sport.

Their demise is based on 3 reasons, poor management, below average drivers and ridiculous budget. Idf thet were smart they would have trimmed their staff in half, reduced their budget by 50% and hired better drivers.

[ArrowsFA1]

No manufacturer should be allowed to have a factory team, if they wish to be involved, they should only be allowed to support independent teams.
What about Ferrari?

Also, don't manufacturers derive greater benefits from having their own team, rather than simply supplying engines? Aren't Williams remembered for winning titles with Hill and Villeneuve (just as an example) rather than Renault?

[UltimateDanGTR]

well, looks like Heidfeld will be in a Qadbak Sauber next year......

shame. where does this leave Japan's F1 involvement? Honda-Gone. Bridgestone-Going. Super Aguri-Gone. Toyota-Now gone. Nakajima-uncertain. Kobayashi-New guy. Sato-returning?

ie. Japans involvement will soon only be by drivers. Im gonna miss Toyota, though they never fulfilled their potential.

goodbye toyota. it was kinda inevitable, yet still dissapointing.

[Mysterious Rock]

Well I suppose this shows that Japan are not the Super Power they are made out to be at this moment in time

[Langdale Forest]

Toyota have wasted a massive amount of money on F1 and they should have stayed in the WRC because the Corrola was still winning rallies at the end of 1999.

Come back to WRC Toyota! :D :D :D :D :D

[woody2goody]

I'm sad that Toyota are going, and now it appears Renault could follow them.

I hope they can 'do a Brawn' and come back next year with good drivers.

In a good way, this will probably give the rightful place back to Peter Sauber and the 'BMW' team. (Off topic I know but I'd love Heidfeld and Klien to get those seats)

[christophulus]

The FIA aren't too happy, and they have good reason not to be. Toyota did just sign up to the Concorde Agreement a few months back, so that clearly isn't worth the paper it's written on

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80012

[Langdale Forest]

The only reason Renault would leave is because of the incident in Singapore and if they do leave, they should move to the WRC because there is not enough teams there.

[Easy Drifter]

There is also supposedly a 50 million dollar bond posted with FOTA.
Does anyone know German/EU law regarding layoffs at their F1 base?
Do they have to provide severance pay? I guess it depends somewhat on how the F1 Co. is set up but Toyota is not going out of business as such.
Are there penalties under the recently signed Concorde Agreement?
If Toy just thumbs their nose at the FIA might they be banned from all competition or would that actually suit them?
Technically a ban would affect their NASCAR operation as it belongs to ACCUS which is FIA affiliated.
A lot more questions than answers. :confused:

[Copse]

ive enjoyed having Toyota in F1 even though they didn't win much but are in my view one of the best teams to take part in modern F1 and i will miss seeing Toyota in F1

Thank you for having the guts to say that.

[F1boat]

Come back to WRC Toyota! :D :D :D :D :D

This is, BTW, a good idea.

[Lemmy-Boy]

I am not shocked at all with Toyota's departure. This is why an independent series run by the FOTA would have never lasted more than a year. Manufacturers come and go based on their financial statements. Toyota, BMW, Honda (and soon-to-be Renault?) are prime examples.

[F1boat]

Although Ferrari blames Max.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80013

"In reality the steady trickle of desertion is more the result of a war against the big car manufacturers by those who managed the sport, than the effects of the economical that affected Formula 1 over the last years," it read.

There is also another quite nasty remark.
""Formula 1 continues losing important parts: over the last 12 months Honda, BMW, Bridgestone and this morning Toyota announced their retirements. In exchange, if one could call it that, Manor, Lotus [because of the team of Colin Chapman, Jim Clark and Ayrton Senna, to name a few, there is hardly more than the name], USF1 and Campos Meta arrived."

Interesting that they fail to mention Brawn GP which won more victories, not to mention titles, than Honda, BMW and Toyota put together. I fail to see why Ferrari feel the need to contunue quarrel with a retired president. I hope that they won't start fighting Jean as well.

[truefan72]

well, looks like Heidfeld will be in a Qadbak Sauber next year......

shame. where does this leave Japan's F1 involvement? Honda-Gone. Bridgestone-Going. Super Aguri-Gone. Toyota-Now gone. Nakajima-uncertain. Kobayashi-New guy. Sato-returning?

ie. Japans involvement will soon only be by drivers. Im gonna miss Toyota, though they never fulfilled their potential.

goodbye toyota. it was kinda inevitable, yet still dissapointing.

I wonder if Aguri could come to some sort of arrangement with the toyota folks. would be nice

[djparky]

What about Ferrari?

Also, don't manufacturers derive greater benefits from having their own team, rather than simply supplying engines? Aren't Williams remembered for winning titles with Hill and Villeneuve (just as an example) rather than Renault?

good point about Ferrari- but they've always been run as a race team- rather than as directed by Fiat

where Honda, BMW, Toyota, Ford/Jaguar and Renault (pre Williams days) went wrong is allowing the corporate types to run it- a big manufacturing entity can't move quickly enough to react to F1-

Renault learnt this to their cost back in the 80's- when they were completely out manouvered by Brabham, Williams and co. Eventually they gave up and just became an engine supplier until 1997. They did it right when they came back officially- the corporate types were kept out of the way and they allowed the old Benetton team to run the F1 operation

Manufacturers are good at supplying engines and funding- but they do not make good team owners- nor do they exist to race in F1- as we have seen recently. We're now basically heading back 25 odd years to a handful of works teams and loads of indie teams running Cosworths. I always thought Williams made a mistake not selling off a chunk of the team to BMW- now I'm bloody glad he didn't!

[truefan72]

Although Ferrari blames Max.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80013

"In reality the steady trickle of desertion is more the result of a war against the big car manufacturers by those who managed the sport, than the effects of the economical that affected Formula 1 over the last years," it read.

There is also another quite nasty remark.
""Formula 1 continues losing important parts: over the last 12 months Honda, BMW, Bridgestone and this morning Toyota announced their retirements. In exchange, if one could call it that, Manor, Lotus [because of the team of Colin Chapman, Jim Clark and Ayrton Senna, to name a few, there is hardly more than the name], USF1 and Campos Meta arrived."

Interesting that they fail to mention Brawn GP which won more victories, not to mention titles, than Honda, BMW and Toyota put together. I fail to see why Ferrari feel the need to contunue quarrel with a retired president. I hope that they won't start fighting Jean as well.

I completely agree with Ferrari's comments

this is Mosley's legacy, another 5-6 years of F1 going to the dogs, before all remnants of his FIA involvements are gone. Then perhaps manufacturers and proper teams will consider returning to a stable sport without the lunacy of an out of control president. As of right now, all these new entrants are poor excusef for teams that only managed tog et inot the sport through mosleys assitance and artificial policies. none of these teams are competnet or worthy of an F1 place IMO.

As to Brawn. lets get Real, Brawn GP in 2009 was Honda under a different name. Honda invested a sizable amount of money developing that car for a year and continued financial assistance to that team for part of the year.. They also sold the team for $1 to brawn, and maintained their grid spot without Brawn GP having to pay the massive entrance fee normally required. Furthermore they used suspect parts on their car (only deemed legal so Mosley could fracture FOTA) which subsequently gave them a huge advantage, allowing them to coast to WDC and WCC victory.

The constant rule changes, the gray areas, the pettiness of mosley and the FIA, the ridiculous fees and sheer banality of the way F1 is regulated and the unnecessary scandals had made F1 a toxic element to manufacturers.

hope Mosley is happy.

[Daniel]

Toyota have wasted a massive amount of money on F1 and they should have stayed in the WRC because the Corrola was still winning rallies at the end of 1999.

Come back to WRC Toyota!
Couldn't agree more :)

[F1boat]

I completely agree with Ferrari's comments

this is Mosley's legacy, another 5-6 years of F1 going to the dogs, before all remnants of his FIA involvements are gone. Then perhaps manufacturers and proper teams will consider returning to a stable sport without the lunacy of an out of control president. As of right now, all these new entrants are poor excusef for teams that only managed tog et inot the sport through mosleys assitance and artificial policies. none of these teams are competnet or worthy of an F1 place IMO.

As to Brawn. lets get Real, Brawn GP in 2009 was Honda under a different name. Honda invested a sizable amount of money developing that car for a year and continued financial assistance to that team for part of the year.. They also sold the team for $1 to brawn, and maintained their grid spot without Brawn GP having to pay the massive entrance fee normally required. Furthermore they used suspect parts on their car (only deemed legal so Mosley could fracture FOTA) which subsequently gave them a huge advantage, allowing them to coast to WDC and WCC victory.

The constant rule changes, the gray areas, the pettiness of mosley and the FIA, the ridiculous fees and sheer banality of the way F1 is regulated and the unnecessary scandals had made F1 a toxic element to manufacturers.

hope Mosley is happy.

I do not agree with your comments about Brawn. Barrichello mentioned that the atmosphere in the smaller team is better, not to mention that Ross used Mercedes engines. About the grey area, it is good for F1 teams to be smart and need I remind you that Williams and Toyota also benefited from this, however, they were unable to stay in front of RBR, Ferrari and McLaren-Mercedes. However I agree that the constant rule changes are not good for the sport and hopefully after 2010 at least for 10 years there will be no more changes. About the quality of new teams, let's wait to see what happens. They might be good, if not, people will start cheering for the underdogs again :)

[BDunnell]

It gives me no pleasure in writing this, however I've warned the forum on many occasions that manufacturers are not the life blood of F1 they could well be it's death knell, and as usual I've been ridiculed and once or twice abused for my views, however I stick to my guns

I have always thought that to be a very sensible view, and not just in relation to F1, but other forms of motorsport too.

[Daniel]

I have always thought that to be a very sensible view, and not just in relation to F1, but other forms of motorsport too.
Yes but you claim that the BTCC is going gangbusters at the moment so I really do have to disagree.

Yeah it's nice to see independants but the real heart of top level motorsport is factory teams. I think it's possibly less important in F1 because they don't actually race anything even remotely close to a production car but manufacturers do make motorsport more popular and when the regs are done they don't always ruin it.

[Lemmy-Boy]

I completely agree with Ferrari's comments

this is Mosley's legacy, another 5-6 years of F1 going to the dogs, before all remnants of his FIA involvements are gone. Then perhaps manufacturers and proper teams will consider returning to a stable sport without the lunacy of an out of control president. As of right now, all these new entrants are poor excusef for teams that only managed tog et inot the sport through mosleys assitance and artificial policies. none of these teams are competnet or worthy of an F1 place IMO.

Did you forget? The entire world is currently in a recession. The recent withdrawal of Manufacturers is bigger than the shenanigans made by FIA, Mad Max or FOTA.

Formula 1 and EVERY other racing series in the world (NASCAR, WRC, IRL, etc) is going through a downward phase right now. When a global economic crisis hits, manufacturers will reduce or drop their participation in a racing series.

All of the major auto manufacturers in the world have problems right now and they've been losing billions every year. Their number 1 priority is make sure they survive, while continuing to sell automobiles & keeping workers employed. Whether you like it or not, F1 is a tiny piece of their marketing mix and operations. After all, it is just a glitzy sideshow.

[BDunnell]

Yes but you claim that the BTCC is going gangbusters at the moment so I really do have to disagree.

Nice to see the usual record has remained stuck during your absence.

In fact it is exactly the BTCC I was thinking of, because having 10 manufacturers involved in 1994 might have seemed excellent, but was clearly unsustainable. When some of those manufacturers go without success for any length of time, or if it doesn't suit their marketing strategies, they will pull out. Same in the WRC, same in F1. There is no point their being involved any more. At present, Toyota will clearly not become involved in any branch of motorsport once they leave F1. What would be the point?


I think it's possibly less important in F1 because they don't actually race anything even remotely close to a production car but manufacturers do make motorsport more popular and when the regs are done they don't always ruin it.

If they didn't think there were benefits to be derived from being in F1, they wouldn't be there. I think these things are so nebulous as to be impossible to define, but I'm not a marketing man, nor a corporate strategist. It is my belief that participation in F1 can probably never be truly justified in the sense of a correlation between investment in F1 and cars sold as a result.

[ioan]

Interesting that they fail to mention Brawn GP which won more victories, not to mention titles, than Honda, BMW and Toyota put together.

And all that with more Honda money than any team ever invested in one season.

The conclusion being that manufacturer money and backing is what got Brawn their success. So what exactly should Brawn GP's case prove?

[SGWilko]

Sad day for F1, good day for Sauber and Mr. Theissen who now probably doesn't have to get involved with touring cars or whatever...

Not necessarily - Toyota still have a place on next years grid as they signed concorde.

They could sell - lock stock - and still leave Mario and his band up the over engineered creek sans rowing instrument. Dave Richards could have a nice easy way into F1......

[ioan]

I wonder if Aguri could come to some sort of arrangement with the toyota folks. would be nice

I hope that Sauber will take up the place left open by Toyota as they are worth it even though Williams are trying to block them out of obvious personal grudge.

[veeten]

Although Ferrari blames Max.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80013

"In reality the steady trickle of desertion is more the result of a war against the big car manufacturers by those who managed the sport, than the effects of the economical that affected Formula 1 over the last years," it read.

There is also another quite nasty remark.
""Formula 1 continues losing important parts: over the last 12 months Honda, BMW, Bridgestone and this morning Toyota announced their retirements. In exchange, if one could call it that, Manor, Lotus [because of the team of Colin Chapman, Jim Clark and Ayrton Senna, to name a few, there is hardly more than the name], USF1 and Campos Meta arrived."


or, in the words of Marie Antionette... "Bread? Then, let them eat cake."

[F1boat]

And all that with more Honda money than any team ever invested in one season.

The conclusion being that manufacturer money and backing is what got Brawn their success. So what exactly should Brawn GP's case prove?

Manu money and wonderful Mercedes engine, but no factory team. :)

[ioan]

Manu money and wonderful Mercedes engine, but no factory team. :)

Manufacturer money = factory team, no matter the name.
Sauber BMW was a manufacturer team even if they chose to continue to use the Sauber name and kept Sauber on board as a consultant and he still owned 20% of the team.

[F1boat]

Manufacturer money = factory team, no matter the name.
Sauber BMW was a manufacturer team even if they chose to continue to use the Sauber name and kept Sauber on board as a consultant and he still owned 20% of the team.

Well maybe our definition varies. I have nothing against manu money. I dislike the manu corporate approach, which, I believe is a failure. Compare BMW to Williams BMW and you will see the difference.

[ioan]

Compare BMW to Williams BMW and you will see the difference.

Yep, BMW beat them every season even the 2009 one.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Yep, BMW beat them every season even the 2009 one.

BMW never beat Williams BMW ;)

[DexDexter]

The only reason Renault would leave is because of the incident in Singapore and if they do leave, they should move to the WRC because there is not enough teams there.

Sorry but nobody follows the WRC, not really.


Did you forget? The entire world is currently in a recession. The recent withdrawal of Manufacturers is bigger than the shenanigans made by FIA, Mad Max or FOTA.

Formula 1 and EVERY other racing series in the world (NASCAR, WRC, IRL, etc) is going through a downward phase right now. When a global economic crisis hits, manufacturers will reduce or drop their participation in a racing series.

All of the major auto manufacturers in the world have problems right now and they've been losing billions every year. Their number 1 priority is make sure they survive, while continuing to sell automobiles & keeping workers employed. Whether you like it or not, F1 is a tiny piece of their marketing mix and operations. After all, it is just a glitzy sideshow.

Not all, the world's fourth biggest manufacturer Hyundai/Kia is doing exceptionally well and increasing its market share in virtually all markets. Who could lure them into F1?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Nice to see the usual record has remained stuck during your absence.

In fact it is exactly the BTCC I was thinking of, because having 10 manufacturers involved in 1994 might have seemed excellent, but was clearly unsustainable. When some of those manufacturers go without success for any length of time, or if it doesn't suit their marketing strategies, they will pull out. Same in the WRC, same in F1. There is no point their being involved any more. At present, Toyota will clearly not become involved in any branch of motorsport once they leave F1. What would be the point?



If they didn't think there were benefits to be derived from being in F1, they wouldn't be there. I think these things are so nebulous as to be impossible to define, but I'm not a marketing man, nor a corporate strategist. It is my belief that participation in F1 can probably never be truly justified in the sense of a correlation between investment in F1 and cars sold as a result.


This is what my Marketing dissertation is on this year. In 1960's America it was win on Sunday, sell on Monday.

Is success counted on sales or technological advancement. Maybe the ever more restrictive regulations are preventing the manufacturers developing technology for future road cars.

[Easy Drifter]

Do not forget that Toy are in Taxi Cab racing in NA. in a big way.

[Mark]

,

[Mark]

post

[Langdale Forest]

Leave the F1 Toyota!

[Malbec]

I do not agree with your comments about Brawn. Barrichello mentioned that the atmosphere in the smaller team is better, not to mention that Ross used Mercedes engines. About the grey area, it is good for F1 teams to be smart and need I remind you that Williams and Toyota also benefited from this, however, they were unable to stay in front of RBR, Ferrari and McLaren-Mercedes. However I agree that the constant rule changes are not good for the sport and hopefully after 2010 at least for 10 years there will be no more changes. About the quality of new teams, let's wait to see what happens. They might be good, if not, people will start cheering for the underdogs again :)

So how good would the Brawn have been had Honda not been behind its development throughout late 2007 and 2008? The car that won the championship in my view is one of the most expensive, if not THE most expensively developed F1 car in history, designed by a team under Honda control and management with access to their R and D. Lets blow away the fairy tale crap here, Brawn winning is not so far different to McLaren or Ferrari winning, big manufacturer money getting big points is the name of the game here.

As for Toyota, there are big reasons for them to leave, their lack of performance being only one small one.

Will the makers be missed? I think they will, they bring a lot of money and sponsorship to the sport as well as raising its profile with F1 being used in advertising a lot. When they leave, they will take a lot of that with them. Not only that but the FIA will be able to rule F1 unopposed by powerful lobby groups, small independent teams struggling for survival can be bought off, makers are harder.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Lets blow away the fairy tale crap here

There is still a fairytale aspect, in that the personnel at Brackley went from the scrapheap to the championship in a very short space of time. If it wasn't for the efforts of Brawn, Fry and Co the 'most expensively developed F1 car in history' would never have hit the track.

[Malbec]

There is still a fairytale aspect, in that the personnel at Brackley went from the scrapheap to the championship in a very short space of time. If it wasn't for the efforts of Brawn, Fry and Co the 'most expensively developed F1 car in history' would never have hit the track.

I agree, the fairytale aspect was on the administrative side and goes as far as shoehorning in a brand new engine in a matter of weeks. The overall pace of the car was still thanks to a manufacturer owned and supported outfit though.

[jens]

Well, the team was given very strict goals before the start of the season - win or departure. From this point of view Toyota's decision wasn't surprising/unexpected unlike Honda/BMW - actually the bosses pretty much kept their word! Maybe a title contention could have saved the team, but that's purely a speculation.

But life goes on and Toyota can find a new challenge in other motorsports. From 2011 onwards we will see significant rule changes in various series (DTM, WTCC, WRC, LMS), so one could expect them at least somewhere and more successfully than F1. ;) Their promoted "Toyota Way" probably didn't quite work out like they expected during those 8 season in F1, but at least they tried and got a new experience. :up: What I appreciate very much is that they decided to set the whole team up entirely by themselves and didn't by an existing outfit like BMW/Honda/Renault did. That's why I don't expect a buy-out of the Cologne team, but that Toyota will start using their very 'own' factory for other motorsport activities.

Next year is going to be quite different and it's going to be interesting to witness it, but the main thing I fear with all those manufacturer withdrawals - which hasn't been highlighted in this thread at all - is that the level of competition will decrease. Brawn/Sauber/etc may not have the backing they had during manufacturer days and McLaren/Ferrari/RBR may have an easier run. And of course it's hard to expect any of the new teams becoming a major player or even a midfielder straightaway. For instance in 98/99 McLaren and Ferrari were pretty much the only manufacturer-supported teams (maybe with the exception of Prost-Peugeot?!) and they were way above others, who were struggling with lack of finances, underpowered engines, etc.

[I am evil Homer]

The way Toyota treated Ove Andersson was a disgrace so I won't be shedding a tear for them. They had the makings of a good team with Andersson at the helm, hiring Gascoigne - no coincidence its best results were with these two being given freedom.

[jens]

When BMW/Honda quitted, people were more positive about those teams and especially in Honda's case there was a lot of disappointment on these forums despite two previously abysmal seasons, so... I think folks should show at least some respect about ToyotaF1. Overall they weren't too impressive, but at least in some way different to others. :p : You will never see their peculiarity back in F1 anyway, so why bash. Btw, Team Princial Yamashina cried at the press conference after the announcement, so that's not really true that the team is passionless, soulless, etc, like is tried to be made out. ;)

[I am evil Homer]

No it's called "saving face". Toyota screwed Ove Andersson over - a man who set up TTE in 1979 with impressive results for them and what does the Japanese board do? Sack him.

When he left Toyota F1 went downhill - it's all of their own making.

[jens]

No it's called "saving face". Toyota screwed Ove Andersson over - a man who set up TTE in 1979 with impressive results for them and what does the Japanese board do? Sack him.

When he left Toyota F1 went downhill - it's all of their own making.

Wasn't Ove's departure due to "compulsory retirement age"? Although in a competitive sport like F1 this shouldn't be really followed that strictly.

[Malbec]

No it's called "saving face". Toyota screwed Ove Andersson over - a man who set up TTE in 1979 with impressive results for them and what does the Japanese board do? Sack him.

When he left Toyota F1 went downhill - it's all of their own making.

They didn't sack him, they retired him and kept him on as an adviser.

It ought to be remembered too that it had been implied that both Andersson and Brunner had been involved in the decision to use Ferrari's 2002 plans that they had bought on CD from an ex-Ferrari employee, it was therefore not surprising to see both leave the team soon after.

[scaliwag]

What about Ferrari?

Also, don't manufacturers derive greater benefits from having their own team, rather than simply supplying engines? Aren't Williams remembered for winning titles with Hill and Villeneuve (just as an example) rather than Renault?

Arrows point taken, however Williams have always been an independent team, over the years they have used many different engines, Williams have always been solely a racing team, until quite recently the vast majority of teams were independent, agreed one or two teams did manufacture sports cars, as for Ferrari they were invited into F1 post 1945 by Bernie, and only agreed to join with a guaranteed veto.
As for me the best racing was from the 1950's to 1990,s.

Regards scaliwag.