It's been a year now. I still hate the new cars.

[Shifter]

The working overtaking group (or whatever it was called) failed. There was no extra overtaking, and all it did in the end was produce ugly-as-sin racecars. If we can't improve "the show" with more overtaking, can we at least field cars that fans aren't embarrased by? More than one friend told me that F1 sport I watch isn't as cool as last year, and that they preferred to watch ALMS/LMS with me 'because the cars are fantastic and the races are more exciting'...and I agreed with them. Funny how those cars don't need air-conditioned garages and 50,000ft of runoff room either, allowing them to run on more interesting circuits.

[truefan72]

well I still hate the cars and wished they had not changed the 2008 cars. By the end of the season ( as I've said many times) we had 6 teams capable of winning races, and 2 more catching up fast.

Given the trajectory of development, we would have had an extremely close field with every team, including force India capable of winning races. Instead we got the farce that was the fist half of 2009, millions wasted on the diffuser modifications, cars that didn't improve overtaking and were ugly to boot.
what a waste of time and money for everyone, when we were so close to a true competitive field and parity up and down the grid.

[V12]

The 2009 cars would have been just fine if they'd kept the rear/front wing dimensions from the 2008 cars - sod the overtaking group or whatever, let the cars fight their way past each other like it should be.

Or just return to 1997 dimensions, that would be even better still.

And nothing wrong with the diffuser row, that was just a bunch of teams jealous that they'd been out-thought. Their own fault.

[Valve Bounce]

I have been advocating for years and years for the elimination of all those winglets, and single element wings front and rear with a specified maximum angle of rake (to be rather small), and specified width. By making the "wings" work as wings and producing low turbulence, this will enable cars to slipstream more effectively and thus overtake. This will also greatly cut down development and testing costs.

Basically the wings are necessary on F1 cars to carry the adverts.

[F1boat]

And nothing wrong with the diffuser row, that was just a bunch of teams jealous that they'd been out-thought. Their own fault.

I agree.

[woody2goody]

I have been advocating for years and years for the elimination of all those winglets, and single element wings front and rear with a specified maximum angle of rake (to be rather small), and specified width. By making the "wings" work as wings and producing low turbulence, this will enable cars to slipstream more effectively and thus overtake. This will also greatly cut down development and testing costs.

Basically the wings are necessary on F1 cars to carry the adverts.

Sounds good.

Personally, I thought they did a better job with allowing the cars to follow than last year, but it still isn't quite good enough.

Part of the problem isn't so much the cars as the circuit design. Take Abu Dhabi for example, a slow hairpin leading onto a straight. Now what is really needed is a corner before the straight where you can't take it flat out, but is not that reliant on aero grip, something like a 120 degree right hander. That would have given us more overtaking there.

The old tracks in the 70s and 80s had a lot of flowing corners leading into each other, where a faster car could capitalise effectively. This was part of the reason overtaking was more frequent (not withstanding the fact there was a bigger field spread than today).

P.S. Some cars look better than others. I think the Toyota looks great as does the Force India and the Brawn.

[Storm]

Force India does look good, (I guess I like the tri-colore flag scheme ;) ) but I agree most still are ugly..like pencils

[VkmSpouge]

I've enjoyed the new cars especially how they look. I found the racing quite good, cars have been able to run closer to each other but hopefully a few more tweaks in the off season by getting rid of the double diffuser and some of the other aerodynamic pieces that have been creeping back onto the cars should improve overtaking opportunities more so.

[Mark]

I don't think they are too bad, but yes, make the rear wing slightly wider and the front wing slightly narrower!

I think the FIA missed a trick with the double diffuser situation earlier in the year. It was right of them to rule it legal, because it was, however they should have given notice that it would be banned in 2010, but they didn't do so..

[ShiftingGears]

No wings is the solution if you want to increase the possibility of overtaking.

There doesn't need to be wings for advertising space, the 3/4 panels don't get used for advertising because of the rear wings. If there were no rear wings, the advertising would just go there.


I doubt it will ever happen though, because not even spec chassis series are smart or bold enough to try it.

Instead they will opt for some lame push to pass gimmick to try to sidestep the problems caused by relying on aerodynamic grip.

[DexDexter]

The working overtaking group (or whatever it was called) failed. There was no extra overtaking, and all it did in the end was produce ugly-as-sin racecars. If we can't improve "the show" with more overtaking, can we at least field cars that fans aren't embarrased by? More than one friend told me that F1 sport I watch isn't as cool as last year, and that they preferred to watch ALMS/LMS with me 'because the cars are fantastic and the races are more exciting'...and I agreed with them. Funny how those cars don't need air-conditioned garages and 50,000ft of runoff room either, allowing them to run on more interesting circuits.

I think this year's cars are much more prettier then the old ones...so...

[Big Ben]

I don't know where I've heard or read it that next year the front wing is going to be narrower. Is it true?

I agree with most of you. I didn´t see much overtaking happening so we should have at least less hideous cars.

It´s been a few years since F1 bored me so much... probably because I didn´t really care for neither of the contenders

[wedge]

And nothing wrong with the diffuser row, that was just a bunch of teams jealous that they'd been out-thought. Their own fault.

When Brawn initially brought the matter up it was known DDD would affect the wake.

Plenty of drivers have come out and said the DDD have affect the performance of the cars following each other.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/motorsport/formulaonediary/5826650/German-GP-to-the-Nurburgring-via-historic-F1.html

Stay at the circuit into the early evening, to attend a Toyota buffet supper. Timo Glock – among the most underrated drivers in the business, and also one of the most approachable – pauses to chat for half an hour. He explains that the latest generation of F1 cars, which were designed specifically to make overtaking easier, have evolved into a racer’s nightmare.

“At the start of the season things weren’t so bad,” he says, “but subsequent aerodynamic developments have made it almost impossible to follow other cars closely.”

I remember Vettel saying something similar as well.

[Shifter]

Part of the problem isn't so much the cars as the circuit design. Take Abu Dhabi for example, a slow hairpin leading onto a straight. Now what is really needed is a corner before the straight where you can't take it flat out, but is not that reliant on aero grip, something like a 120 degree right hander. That would have given us more overtaking there.

The old tracks in the 70s and 80s had a lot of flowing corners leading into each other, where a faster car could capitalise effectively. This was part of the reason overtaking was more frequent (not withstanding the fact there was a bigger field spread than today).

This is very true, and I've tried to consider how the 'show' has been on the older european circuits with the occaisional sweeping bend and elevation change. At Spa for instance, the run from La Source to Les Combs is perfectly designed to induce overtakes, and we did see a few there. Really, F1 to me has always been more about monumental overtakes instead of many overtakes. Determined drivers will make it happen. Meanwhile, the large front/tall rear wing just looks silly and didn't produce those 'many' overtakes. Lets just go back to having the cars look proper, try out some reasonable ground-effect a-la-GP2, and if the race turns processional oh well, at least we're watching amazing drivers and amazing machinery, no goofy proportions.

[christophulus]

I like the 09 cars. Like pretty much any major change it takes a while to adjust. I particularly like how "clean" the cars are without any ugly winglets crammed in everywhere.

Hopefully the double diffusers will be banned soon (OK, doubt it), and I heard tell that the wheeltrims were going to be ditched next year too? We saw a bit of overtaking this year so F1 is heading in the right direction :up:

[ClarkFan]

I have been advocating for years and years for the elimination of all those winglets, and single element wings front and rear with a specified maximum angle of rake (to be rather small), and specified width. By making the "wings" work as wings and producing low turbulence, this will enable cars to slipstream more effectively and thus overtake. This will also greatly cut down development and testing costs.

Basically the wings are necessary on F1 cars to carry the adverts.
Sounds like you and I are in about the same place on this issue. The size and complexity of front wing profiles has really gotten out of control the past couple of years. And since the cars are designed to rely on this downforce for front grip, once they are close behind another car front grip is gone - surprise, surprise! :\

I would add a ban on rear diffusers, putting those downforce profiles in the side pods instead (where the disturbed airflow would be broken up by the rear wheels). I would also limit the under chassis airflow management by expanding the flat undersection to the center point of the front wheels and banning any cutout or voids above that flat bottom (all stated in fine FIA legalese, of course :s ).

My goal would be for the location of aerodynamic downforce would resember this car, but without the skirts on the side pods:

http://www.jpslotus.org/78/78-lotus2004-2.jpg

http://www.allfreeportal.com/imghost/images/695987lotus78.jpg

Given the evolution in ground effects in practice since 1977, the cars would generate signficantly more downforce than a Lotus 78 and I wouldn't actually expect them to look like a 78 (F1 could do worse for looks, and it is today IMO). But I believe that they would give the profile of a car that would retain its handling capacities in close quarter and could even slipstream a leading car.

ClarkFan

[UltimateDanGTR]

personally, F1 car designs are all wrong! :D They are still pieces of technological brilliance to marvel at, but personally id like to see a simplified body design.

I would have the front wings not as car-width-spanning, but wider 'ther other way' as it were, sort of 80s style but wider. like valve said, 'angle of rake' or whatever its called, should be very small.

eliminate all winglets, only front and rear wing allowed, both being much simplified. Id have rear wings as wide as possible as well.

Then, providing it could be designed safely which i cant imagine being too difficult, the actual nose should be wider and be attached to the cockpit and engine cover, ending at the rear with a diffuser like they had in the 80s. the nosecone can still be removable like now, but the whole thing would be larger. also, the nosecone would be one 'whole body' ie. no more raised nosecones, all nosecones going right down to the front wing like the past!

The engine cover would be wider at the bottom and have to be rounded at the top instead of pointy to keep aesthetics in fitting.

The driver is sitting in the same position as in todays cars, with even bigger side-head-protector things.

with the all-in-one fuselage of the car with plenty of side protection as well, side pods can be slightly lower and run further foward, reducing that gap that has been created with 09 cars with the area of nothingness between the front wheels and the sidepods. For aesthetic reasons, the front 'profile' of the sidepods wouldnt go in on themselves into the nose, but have to be vertical. otherwise the whole thing would look silly.

Oh, and fatter rear tyres. my vision is basically taking those great 80s cars we had and making them work today with todays safety features etc.

also, pardon the rubbish terminology.

[UltimateDanGTR]

The great part about the rule changes were the fact that the field was shaken up so much, and the closest its been since I can remember.... :)


this raises an interesting question; would red bull have been so competitive his year without the rule changes? would we have seen a very different 2009 if the was no changes, ie mclaren and ferrari top dogs again?

something to ponder on.

[ioan]

And nothing wrong with the diffuser row, that was just a bunch of teams jealous that they'd been out-thought. Their own fault.

Can't agree. It was all about going way beyond what the rules allowed with lots of help from the FIA who wanted to divide an conquer the FOTA.

[ioan]

this raises an interesting question; would red bull have been so competitive his year without the rule changes? would we have seen a very different 2009 if the was no changes, ie mclaren and ferrari top dogs again?

something to ponder on.

I seem to remember the STR winning a race last year too, and that was pretty much the same as the RB4 only with a different engine.

So yes, RBR were going to win races anyway as they were developing the chassis in the right direction and if it wasn't for the FIA allowing a dodgy interpretation about what's a hole and what's a gap they would have beaten the Brawn GP team hands down.

[truefan72]

I seem to remember the STR winning a race last year too, and that was pretty much the same as the RB4 only with a different engine.

So yes, RBR were going to win races anyway as they were developing the chassis in the right direction and if it wasn't for the FIA allowing a dodgy interpretation about what's a hole and what's a gap they would have beaten the Brawn GP team hands down.

yep

[Somebody]

I'd say nope - RB were heading in the right direction, but the massive rule changes certainly aided and abetted them by more-than wiping out McL & Ferrari's head starts.

[Kevincal]

05 and earlier cars were the best. Looks, performance, passing, sound. Everything was better.

I hate the small V8 and ugly new cars.

[UltimateDanGTR]

yeah sorta like somebody said, as much as red bull were going in the right direction, i believe Macca and Fezza had a strong enough grip on what was then the current rules that they would have been the best this year, although red bull would have been more competitive. ah, the miracle of hindsight.....

[F1boat]

05 and earlier cars were the best. Looks, performance, passing, sound. Everything was better.

I hate the small V8 and ugly new cars.

2004 saw the best cars IMO. I think that Michael's lap records still stay.

[Lemmy-Boy]

Like the old saying goes, "New $hit, but same old pile". F1 is boring as ever!

[Saint Devote]

Yeah well some people will complain no matter what!

These arguments were around thirty years ago and they still resonate - well boo-hoo!!! Sucks to be you too!

Those people who decide not to watch f1 - don't let the door hit you on the way out - the sport will survive, SOMEHOW!!!

2009 by any standards has been a marvellous season and it evolved right to the championship decider at Interlagos.

The 2009 season was quintessential f1 involving the unexpected, politics and shrieks from the somewhat off mental kilter Bernie encampment ending with his eldest daughter [with the fat arse] getting all bent out of shape because Jense decided to take a phone call while she was intervieing him.....! Egos are such delicate things especially where spoilt children are concerned.

The cars were better looking than those ugly aero s and next year will be even better.

Time to begin to watch the grand prix re-runs! Ahh Australia 2009.......

[F1boat]

2and shrieks from the somewhat off mental kilter Bernie encampment ending with his eldest daughter [with the fat arse] getting all bent out of shape because Jense decided to take a phone call while she was intervieing him.....! Egos are such delicate things especially where spoilt children are concerned.


"Hell has no furies for a woman scorned" - Pinhead /"Hellraiser"/ ;)

[Rollo]

I have been advocating for years and years for the elimination of all those winglets, and single element wings front and rear with a specified maximum angle of rake (to be rather small), and specified width. By making the "wings" work as wings and producing low turbulence, this will enable cars to slipstream more effectively and thus overtake. This will also greatly cut down development and testing costs.

Basically the wings are necessary on F1 cars to carry the adverts.

I agree with the sentiment of this entirely, however I'd go one step further and suggest that the wings which are on the car should be downforce neutral, as per something akin to the BTC-T spec cars.
The wings on those cars as I understand it only existed to carry adverts and perhaps to make the cars look the part.

Let's see designers develop downforce using the shape of the bodywork itself and maybe incorporate some sort of "kicker" rear wing.

[Big Ben]

Yeah well some people will complain no matter what!

These arguments were around thirty years ago and they still resonate - well boo-hoo!!! Sucks to be you too!

Those people who decide not to watch f1 - don't let the door hit you on the way out - the sport will survive, SOMEHOW!!!

2009 by any standards has been a marvellous season and it evolved right to the championship decider at Interlagos.

The 2009 season was quintessential f1 involving the unexpected, politics and shrieks from the somewhat off mental kilter Bernie encampment ending with his eldest daughter [with the fat arse] getting all bent out of shape because Jense decided to take a phone call while she was intervieing him.....! Egos are such delicate things especially where spoilt children are concerned.

The cars were better looking than those ugly aero s and next year will be even better.

Time to begin to watch the grand prix re-runs! Ahh Australia 2009.......

Chacun a son gout... and by the way smart people know how to express complex ideas through simple words.... I think idiots love to do it the other way around

[Saint Devote]

Gary Anderson a couple of weeks ago waded into this argument about qualifying deciding the race and overtaking being no better.

It would take a significant reduction of front and rear wings - he mentions by comparison almost token wings, WIDER rear tires and the movement of aero to beneath the car - not ground effect - for racing to become what the FIA is seeking to do through its Working Group.

They are actually movingin the opposite direction and he reckons that 2010 could see even less overtaking because there are no fuel stops and tire stops will be literally several seconds.

[keysersoze]

I kinda feel about F1 cars as I do about my wife: half the pleasure is LOOKING at her, and I never get tired of it.

On the other hand, even the good-looking ones are hard to handle sometimes . . . :D

It's not good to hit the rev limiter too often.

Every couple of races, she needs an engine change . . .

One needs to change the, er, rubber twice a race . . .

and then the analogy falls apart! :p

[Shifter]

Yeah well some people will complain no matter what!

I wasn't complaining about the way the cars looked before this season, just so you know...I was absolutely in love with the sport the past couple of years, and this year just didn't do it for me, partly because of the cars.

[Saint Devote]

I wasn't complaining about the way the cars looked before this season, just so you know...I was absolutely in love with the sport the past couple of years, and this year just didn't do it for me, partly because of the cars.

In 2007/8 the cars were even uglier, at least the 2009 cars did not have all that ugly as sin aero furniture.

Gary Anderson has frequently written whenever the overtaking debate is raised, that solving the issue is not difficult for an engineer. Reduce outer aero to merely stabilize size, move it functionally beneath the car short of ground effects and w-i-d-e-n the rear tires.

If the rules were not so terribly rigid with the FIA always breathing down everyone's neck and left to the f1 teams we WOULD have excellent racing as well as beautiful cars once again.

And now we even have ugly pathetic racing circuits added on.

[F1boat]

IMO almost all circuits are terrific. The cars, I think that every F1 car is pretty but for me the aero thing makes the cars prettier. IMO last year's McLaren was possibly the most beautoful car ever.

[wedge]

Gary Anderson a couple of weeks ago waded into this argument about qualifying deciding the race and overtaking being no better.

It would take a significant reduction of front and rear wings - he mentions by comparison almost token wings

The same Gary Anderson who a year or so ago advocated lower and wider front wings.

Now there's a suprise....

[UltimateDanGTR]

The same Gary Anderson who a year or so ago advocated lower and wider front wings.

Now there's a suprise....

true, although his point about qualifying, having the fastest guy at the front, is perfectly fine IMO.

I would suggest a quali system where each driver sets a time in a period of time simular to now, but then the fastest 10 is totally randomized and the positions in the top 10 are drawn out of a hat, next 10 same thing etc. but i may be shot down for that, it kinda breaks with tradition too much i know, although would provide excitement.

[wedge]

true, although his point about qualifying, having the fastest guy at the front, is perfectly fine IMO.

who runs off into the distance no where to be seen...


Personally I'm in favour of a top 10 one lap shoot out and/or quali tyres

[Saint Devote]

IMO almost all circuits are terrific. The cars, I think that every F1 car is pretty but for me the aero thing makes the cars prettier. IMO last year's McLaren was possibly the most beautoful car ever.

Alltime? No.

But the car this year that epitomised the term "RACING CAR" was the Red Bull Racing RB05.

But then thats expected when the designer is Adrian Newey. I just love his designs they are works of art AND they win!!!

[Saint Devote]

The same Gary Anderson who a year or so ago advocated lower and wider front wings.

Now there's a suprise....

Within the context of the rules.
But he has always suggested it being the doubtful way for f1 to go.

[Valve Bounce]

IMO last year's McLaren was possibly the most beautoful car ever.

Never!! Not even close. This is the most beautiful of all: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v283/king-david/lightburn-zeta-1964-1.jpg

[Saint Devote]

Like the old saying goes, "New $hit, but same old pile". F1 is boring as ever!

At the risk of starting this old argument anew - why do you pay ANY attention to it then?

I cant stand Nascar and consider it an insult to intelligent racing and boring to the extreme - I pay no attention to it whatsoever.

[Saint Devote]

who runs off into the distance no where to be seen...


Personally I'm in favour of a top 10 one lap shoot out and/or quali tyres

But that would not be f1.

It is most unfortunate that somewhere along the line the idea that f1 requires overtaking beyond perhaps one or two good moves per race or none whatsoever.

I have found some of the most absorbing grands prix are those where two cars are trying to catch each otehr - or even where there is a line of cars hounding each otehrs wheel tracks for most of the time.

People who are fixated with overtaking or gimmicks - maybe f1 is not really for you.

[Saint Devote]

Reading Ross Brawn's comments it is clear that the BGP 02 is almost complete.

Next big events for f1 are naming finalized driver line-ups. If anyone has seen the grid for GP2 next year - there are almost none of the 2009 drivers.

Definitely I would expect to see Pterov on the grid - acommpanied by his determined MOTHER..... She will definitelyhave to be harnessed!

Then of course the launch of the new cars is always exciting!!!

[F1boat]

But that would not be f1.

It is most unfortunate that somewhere along the line the idea that f1 requires overtaking beyond perhaps one or two good moves per race or none whatsoever.

I have found some of the most absorbing grands prix are those where two cars are trying to catch each otehr - or even where there is a line of cars hounding each otehrs wheel tracks for most of the time.

People who are fixated with overtaking or gimmicks - maybe f1 is not really for you.

I agree. I loved Spa, I loved Valencia. There were no overtaking there. Sure, it was cool when a driver overtook a rival, a la Jenson vs Lewis in Bahrain, yet it is possible then a good race can happen even without overtaking for the lead.

[Sonic]

I've been happy to see the back of winglets etc, so the new breed is already an improvement. However the snowplough front wings have not mellowed over the year and the rear wings look like Formula Palmer Audi or some other feeder series.

For me the big problem is how weedy the cars look up close. A modern car is too small and fragile looking with tiny wheels and not enough rubber. Whereas something like a mid 80's Benetton or something looked like a beast even sat still.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Alltime? No.

But the car this year that epitomised the term "RACING CAR" was the Red Bull Racing RB05.

But then thats expected when the designer is Adrian Newey. I just love his designs they are works of art AND they win!!!

well generally, the best cars have been the most beautiful on the grid IMO. last years macca was the best looking of the 08 cars IMO, the 2005 and 2006 renaults were the best looking and the best cars of their years, the 96 williams FW18 was the best looking on the grid that year, the best looking car of 87 was the best: the williams FW11. the renaults and brabhams of 83 were the most beautiful and best on the grid, the 1980 williams, the Lotus 78 was one of the greatest F1 cars of all time, best on the grid in 78 and arguably most beautiful F1 car ever (IMO), the 69 Tyrrell even. You see, from those examples the best is generally the most beautiful, and not just because they are the fastest. thats just my opinion, but i cant think of a great but ugly F1 car.

[AndyL]

This may be a controversial view but I think all F1 cars since the introduction of wings have been ugly. Debating which is the most attractive is a bit like trying to decide who's the better singer, John or Edward. Fortunately unlike TV "talent" shows, F1 is not a beauty contest :)

[wedge]

Within the context of the rules.
But he has always suggested it being the doubtful way for f1 to go.

No he never.

In 2005 he criticised the aero package. He'd been an advocate of more front downforce.

[Saint Devote]

No he never.

In 2005 he criticised the aero package. He'd been an advocate of more front downforce.

I have no idea what he said in 2005. But again taking it out of context and trying to refer it to the current issue in f1 regarding overtaking difficulties should not be done.

[Rollo]

the Lotus 78 was one of the greatest F1 cars of all time, best on the grid in 78 and arguably most beautiful F1 car ever

The 78? Even with that gaping square hole in the front? Surely the 79 was a far prettier car and more significant because it was the first car to properly make use of ground effect (which although the 78 had, wasn't really there).

[wedge]

I have no idea what he said in 2005. But again taking it out of context and trying to refer it to the current issue in f1 regarding overtaking difficulties should not be done.

How am I trying to out the context of the argument?

In 2005 we had higher front wings to reduce front downforce. Anderson, on Irish television and rest of the media at large, argued that their should be more front DF. This year he got his wish and the racing has been rather debatable.

The views of Anderson shows how complex the issue is with aero and overtaking.

[UltimateDanGTR]

The 78? Even with that gaping square hole in the front? Surely the 79 was a far prettier car and more significant because it was the first car to properly make use of ground effect (which although the 78 had, wasn't really there).

sorry, i kinda meant both

[Saint Devote]

How am I trying to out the context of the argument?

In 2005 we had higher front wings to reduce front downforce. Anderson, on Irish television and rest of the media at large, argued that their should be more front DF. This year he got his wish and the racing has been rather debatable.

The views of Anderson shows how complex the issue is with aero and overtaking.

My point is that he was arguing within the context of the rules - just as he has done this year.

In order to achieve what is desired he advocates differently.

The front wings in 2009, especially the ridiculous moveable flap, were the MOST offensive and ugly parts of the cars. I hate them.

They are the most UNformula one part of the car.

Cant those who make the rules actually SEE or envisage their creations?? It appears not - on the other hand they may all have no taste and wear plaid trousers with bright green shirts........

[Lemmy-Boy]

At the risk of starting this old argument anew - why do you pay ANY attention to it then?

I cant stand Nascar and consider it an insult to intelligent racing and boring to the extreme - I pay no attention to it whatsoever.

You probably watch Chess matches on TV and find it exciting too.

[Lemmy-Boy]

At the risk of starting this old argument anew - why do you pay ANY attention to it then?

I cant stand Nascar and consider it an insult to intelligent racing and boring to the extreme - I pay no attention to it whatsoever.

As a real motorsport fan, I've been to F1 races in Montreal & Silverstone. Attended live Nascar races in Vegas & Talladega. I've also seen my fair share of CART & IRL races at track side.

And what is wrong with criticizing a product? Do you understand basic economics? The promoter(Racing Series) sells a product or service. Consumers (fans) buy it.

If the racing series does something that the consumers dislike, they have two choices : 1) Listen to the consumers or 2) ignore them and become what F1 has become today. A Boring spectacle

Now, from what you are saying, no fan, ticket buyer or TV viewer should EVER complain about a product. No matter how boring or dull it has become. We should just shut up, become little minions and accept what they give us on the track.

Maybe you should get off your Eurocentric high-horse. It's good that this forum exists, so fans can stand up and give their opinions, especially if they feel they're getting screwed. And thank goodness, there are other major racing series around the world to watch and not just F1.

Whether it's Top Fuel Drag racing, Dirt Racing or F1, I don't value any series lower than the other. And since you only seem to watch F1 that makes you an Wanna-Be E-L-I-T-S-T. And far from a REAL MOTORSPORT fan.

[leopard]

Never!! Not even close. This is the most beautiful of all: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v283/king-david/lightburn-zeta-1964-1.jpg
:rotflmao:

last year's best cars, i think williams and ferrari

[F1boat]

:rotflmao:

last year's best cars, i think williams and ferrari

IMO in 2009 the prettiest cars were the Brawn GP and the McLaren.

[DexDexter]

Whether it's Top Fuel Drag racing, Dirt Racing or F1, I don't value any series lower than the other. And since you only seem to watch F1 that makes you an Wanna-Be E-L-I-T-S-T. And far from a REAL MOTORSPORT fan.

This is the common misconception you North Americans have. F1 elitist? No way, just a sport. But then again we Euros are bit elitist anyway, right? Drink wine and stuff. :)

[Malbec]

IMO in 2009 the prettiest cars were the Brawn GP and the McLaren.

Doesn't that prove that success brings a beauty of its own? I quite liked the elegant slim Force India this year which seems to have gone largely unnoticed. The ugliest car was definitely the slabsided Beemer at least early on in the season.

[V12]

Doesn't that prove that success brings a beauty of its own? I quite liked the elegant slim Force India this year which seems to have gone largely unnoticed. The ugliest car was definitely the slabsided Beemer at least early on in the season.

Agreed on all of your points. Although I think the similarly uncompetitive Renault gave the BMW a run for its money in the ugliness stakes.

[Lemmy-Boy]

This is the common misconception you North Americans have. F1 elitist? No way, just a sport. But then again we Euros are bit elitist anyway, right? Drink wine and stuff. :)


I love wine as well! However, I prefer booze from California and Chile. Oh yes, there's moonshine too! ;)