What are FIA doing to attract new manufacturers?

[nerdhan]

Hello,

I've just been watching some old World Rally Championship DVD's from 1985, and could not help but notice the diversity of manufacturers taking part back then..... Nissan, Mazda, Audi, Opel, Lancia, Renault, Porsche, VW, MG ..... etc

My question is why is there a paltry and embarrising 2 manufacters left in 2009 compared to back then?

And what are the people in charge of running the WRC doing as a matter of urgency to attract new manufacturers (not teams) to compete again.

[Barreis]

They're doing nothing.. Mr Chandler lost control unfortantely (that means Citroen and Ford are chiefs)..

[Juha_Koo]

Barreis is once again presenting total nonsense. Just like your claim about "three paid drivers". Allow me to grin. :)

It's very difficult to attract new manufacturers to an expensive sport during these very difficult times when many car manufactures are fighting to survive the recession.

Even though motorsports are a vital marketing tool for car manufacturers, during difficult financial times they don't want to be seen as a right-wing brand continuing their expensive motorsport programs when at the same time the companies are laying off workers. There's no doubt that leftist media would bash them to death. That would create (very) negative publicity and it's not wanted.

Therefore, we should wait for the economy to rise - and after that, present some new regulations that guarantee cheaper cars. FIA has already done this.

[Barreis]

Now I'm really happy that FIA president is Frenchman and WRC champ is Frenchman.. How about so many manufacturers did homologations for their S2000 cars but not for WRC 'cos they want to invest in something that will give them profit.. They don't throw their money into nothing.. For the end - :)

[Gordini]

Hello,

I've just been watching some old World Rally Championship DVD's from 1985, and could not help but notice the diversity of manufacturers taking part back then..... Nissan, Mazda, Audi, Opel, Lancia, Renault, Porsche, VW, MG ..... etc

My question is why is there a paltry and embarrising 2 manufacters left in 2009 compared to back then?

And what are the people in charge of running the WRC doing as a matter of urgency to attract new manufacturers (not teams) to compete again.

The ONLY way FIA can do thet is by keeping the tech regs so simple that the price tag of building a new WRCar for 2011 is so low that the manufacturers see the benefit commercially !

If they miss at this crossroads they can kiss rally goodbye for a long time !

[I am evil Homer]

Which is why opposition to S2000 by rally fans is dumb.

[AndyRAC]

The ONLY way FIA can do that is by keeping the tech regs so simple that the price tag of building a new WRCar for 2011 is so low that the manufacturers see the benefit commercially !

If they miss at this crossroads they can kiss rally goodbye for a long time !

I'm inclined to agree. While S2000/S1600T are at least a start, they are still going to be fairly expensive, and prohibitive for most Privateers. Take the current S2000's, they are allowed in the BRC - but hardly anybody uses them, if at all, as they're just too expensive.
I've said before, that in an ideal world the cars used would be similar to the current 'Hot Hatches' we see lots of Manufacturers making. The only modifications would be for safety, brakes and suspension.

[Francis44]

The problem with this is that people only see the cars as the target for cost cut. But if you see what a team spends a year with hotels cost, mechanics, manager's, rally entrie fee's and deslocations it's quite overhelming, if they cuted on that there was going to be no need of cheaper cars.

[Daniel]

Nothing.

[Barreis]

I'm inclined to agree. While S2000/S1600T are at least a start, they are still going to be fairly expensive, and prohibitive for most Privateers. Take the current S2000's, they are allowed in the BRC - but hardly anybody uses them, if at all, as they're just too expensive.
I've said before, that in an ideal world the cars used would be similar to the current 'Hot Hatches' we see lots of Manufacturers making. The only modifications would be for safety, brakes and suspension.

I agree..

[cannyboy]

The open class of cars in the us seems to be a good starting point.
Basically, a loud grp n with 400bhp.

Think the car block used for his videos and thow that on the stages. I'd imagine 100k would do the trick.

S2000's are 250K+ which are stupid prices already and the formula is only going to get more expensive from here.

I think that we're going in the wrong direction again with S2000/WRC 1.6T.

Keep it simple and affordable - keep it production based with BHP hp and small wheels, and you'll have a popular series.

The further you deviate from production the more $$$$ it costs.

Imagine if the BRC took away turbo restictors and allowed the fitment of a loud exhaust - problem solved.

Once you cross 100k, it's only going to be a rich kids sport - below that, finance can be raised for many drivers...

[Tomi]

There is not so much FIA can do, only to make the rules easier so that manufacturer can participate and trying to negotiate with the manufacurers, those both they are doing now.

[Barreis]

FIA did pricing for S2000 car but for example Škoda made price for S2000 car 269 000 euros plus VAT.. That's not FIA price for S2000 car..

[riko]

nothing...
they want 4 teams in wrc...but dont make nothing...
Remember 80´s and the beggining 2000 that´s the lost wrc...

P.S: sorry my english

[grugsticles]

The open class of cars in the us seems to be a good starting point.
Basically, a loud grp n with 400bhp.

Think the car block used for his videos and thow that on the stages. I'd imagine 100k would do the trick.

S2000's are 250K+ which are stupid prices already and the formula is only going to get more expensive from here.

I think that we're going in the wrong direction again with S2000/WRC 1.6T.

Keep it simple and affordable - keep it production based with BHP hp and small wheels, and you'll have a popular series.

The further you deviate from production the more $$$$ it costs.

Imagine if the BRC took away turbo restictors and allowed the fitment of a loud exhaust - problem solved.

Once you cross 100k, it's only going to be a rich kids sport - below that, finance can be raised for many drivers...
I tend to agree on your thoughts on the Open Class regulations used in the USA. I dont think they are perfect, but I think the general idea is right.

Group N but with more power = cheapest way to reduce the price of cars (ignoring the other associated costs with running a team of course). Even the home rally enthusiast could build a car to the regulations within reasonable financial cost (considering).
If regulations were put in place that allowed any manufacturer to take one of its current road cars, add a rollcage, turbo charge the engine with a control turbo, 40mm restrictor, ECU (Motec or similar), use a control suspension and brake setups that are common off the shelf products to all/most brands of cars and makes. Gear boxes would have to maintain the OEM casing, but uprated internals can be used as well as strengthening the casing.

I think the key thing is to slow or halt the emphasis on having a completely custom designed cars in terms of suspension, geometry and weight distribution with a similar looking exterior to the road equivalent, and having more emphasis on using an actual road cars and adding bolt in replacement parts.
At the end of the day, if a team needs the geometry etc. of a car to change to become more competitive, then the manufacturer must change the road car design. The ends result is the rally car's real world R and D actually gets put into use to make better road cars. Win for manufacturers, win for road users.

[Langdale Forest]

The early Group A era (1987-1992) had alot of manufactures, alot had only small scale involvement but it was still interesting and varied.

[MJW]

In view of this mornings decision by Toyota to withdraw from F1 with immediate effect, maybe we could see a Toyota rally car in 2011.

[Finni]

Barreis is once again presenting total nonsense. Just like your claim about "three paid drivers". Allow me to grin. :)

It's very difficult to attract new manufacturers to an expensive sport during these very difficult times when many car manufactures are fighting to survive the recession.


Don't seem to be difficult at all to IRC-series.

[COD]

They are just making a mess. Nobody still at this point knows what the regulations for the S1600T are going to be.

Best they could do is to say the WRC cars of at least next 3-4 years are current S2000 cars. There are so many manufacturers allready there that it would make a good Championship

[Barreis]

NorthOne TV is not capable to do a good presentation of WRC.. Only Eurosport can make it better with live coverage.. NorthOne would never be able to do live show.. Bad..

[Langdale Forest]

It is not capable because of DAVE.

[ShiftingGears]

We will see what happens to WRC now that Jean Todt is in control.

[jonkka]

We will see what happens to WRC now that Jean Todt is in control.

That's something I have mixed feelings about. On one hand, he's got decent rallying roots unlike Max - on the other hand, he's spent years with the evils of F-One and I suspect that has corrupted his judgement.

Besides, President of the FIA is not a tyrant, he cannot dictate what will be done or won't be done. It's still more or less democratic organization, meaning that big wussy federations that love F-One, they still rule.

[Tomi]

Besides, President of the FIA is not a tyrant, he cannot dictate what will be done or won't be done. It's still more or less democratic organization, meaning that big wussy federations that love F-One, they still rule.
Well said, the biggest cry babies here seem to how no idea what so ever how desitions are made by FIA.
More important than FIA is the rally comission, when it comes to rules or what ever changes, because it they who suggest FIA when they want changes, so look carefully who your countrys represent is there.

[Sulland]

Well said, the biggest cry babies here seem to how no idea what so ever how desitions are made by FIA.
More important than FIA is the rally comission, when it comes to rules or what ever changes, because it they who suggest FIA when they want changes, so look carefully who your countrys represent is there.

THis cry baby have read a bit on how FIA works, and one thing is clear: FIA has nothing to do with democracy, at least in the european sense of the word.

And for the record, the rally commission is also FIA. FIA is not just the head of the org, it is also the body.

Can we once more have a look at the members of the rally commission, and then see what competence and rally experience they have...

[AndyRAC]

THis cry baby have read a bit on how FIA works, and one thing is clear: FIA has nothing to do with democracy, at least in the european sense of the word.

And for the record, the rally commission is also FIA. FIA is not just the head of the org, it is also the body.

Can we once more have a look at the members of the rally commission, and then see what competence and rally experience they have...

Rally, what Rally....???

[Tomi]

And for the record, the rally commission is also FIA. FIA is not just the head of the org, it is also the body.

Offcourse it is a part of FIA, and its in the rallycomission where the important work is done, evrything above that is just a lable they hardly change suggestions that comes from the comission, therefore they who are the people in the comission is important, we here are in a lucky situation that our guy in the comission understand the sport, listen, takes advises, and inform us whats going on there regulary, maybe it would be an more effective way to try to effect comission members instead of..........................

[jonkka]

FIA has nothing to do with democracy, at least in the european sense of the word.

The name FIA (=Federation Internationale de l'Automobile) says it's a federation. If we want to abuse the comma, federation is not a democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy vs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation) but federation still is democratic form of government, as opposed to other -cracies or tyranny.

[Rally Power]

FIA Rally Commission work it’s marked by two major faults:

New WRC cars regulations are not yet decided even they’ve been debated since 2007 (almost 3 years!).[/*:m:1mckra5m]
WRC promotion was endorsed to the same company (ISC) that has previously failed on the job. This decision was not only unfair – other interested player, Eurosport Events, proved a damn good job by raising its own series – but also dangerous to rally future, giving space to a disturbing competition between WRC and IRC.[/*:m:1mckra5m]Let’s hope Mr. Todt can provide proper solutions to this troubled issues, because without them we'll hardly see new manufacturers involved at rally sport.

[Tomi]

giving space to a disturbing competition between WRC and IRC.

in what way are theese 2 competing?

[DonJippo]

WRC promotion was endorsed to the same company (ISC) that has previously failed on the job.

You are mixing things here ISC was not promoter before, actually no-one was, they have had the commercial rights for years but they were not promoter before.

[AndyRAC]

You are mixing things here ISC was not promoter before, actually no-one was, they have had the commercial rights for years but they were not promoter before.

Quite true, when David Richards bought ISC off Bernie he had all kinds of plans for the future of the sport - so he was in effect the 'Un-Official Promoter'. Funnily enough, the latest owners of ISC seem to want to reverse the ideas that DR had. Not too soon in my opinion.

[Rally Power]

in what way are theese 2 competing?

Are you blind?

[Rally Power]

You are mixing things here ISC was not promoter before, actually no-one was, they have had the commercial rights for years but they were not promoter before.

Don't seems likely that someone who's only in charge of commercial rights could have power enought to impose drastic changes into world rallys, like the ones seen over the last decade, with the negative results we all know.

Like so many times before, FIA decision on the WRC promoter selection wasn’t clear enough and it’s doubtful it was taken on the sport best interest.

[Tomi]

Are you blind?

not blind, you did the statement, explaine please how they compete against each other

[Daniel]

Tomi's right. The WRC is still top dog in the public eye.

[N.O.T]

there are two things that the manufacturers want from a motorsport

1. Make money

2. Spend less than they make through advertising and marketing their brand

FIA must make a solid set of rules for the next 10 years or so....make a rather cheap base (but not one that every useless sick dog mechanic can copy and be competitive) car which will eventually through evolution will become expensive and start over

About the events, introduce new BIG selling markets to the WRC (still not a USA event)

Make rallying TV attractive so sponsors can get their moneys worth

a manufacturer will not enter the WRC for the love of the sport.

Now are they doing any of the above ?? Not very successfully is the answer.

[ShiftingGears]

That's something I have mixed feelings about. On one hand, he's got decent rallying roots unlike Max - on the other hand, he's spent years with the evils of F-One and I suspect that has corrupted his judgement.

Besides, President of the FIA is not a tyrant, he cannot dictate what will be done or won't be done. It's still more or less democratic organization, meaning that big wussy federations that love F-One, they still rule.

Todt is proposing commisioners of each of the major series which the FIA governs, in essence meaning that there will be a boss of the WRC who will oversee the decisions being made. So really, I don't think the popularity and marketability of F1 should (ideally) affect the governance of the WRC if Todt nominates the right candidate.

[Tomi]

[quote="N.O.T"]

On atleast theese important points they are working now, not sure if they make solid rules for 10 years, but 5 would be an big impovement already, it would be the best way for saving money too, the stuff they done sofar has been more or less cosmetic.
Also new markets are on the way, South Africa for instance.

[AndyRAC]

there are two things that the manufacturers want from a motorsport

1. Make money

2. Spend less than they make through advertising and marketing their brand

FIA must make a solid set of rules for the next 10 years or so....make a rather cheap base (but not one that every useless sick dog mechanic can copy and be competitive) car which will eventually through evolution will become expensive and start over

About the events, introduce new BIG selling markets to the WRC (still not a USA event)

Make rallying TV attractive so sponsors can get their moneys worth

a manufacturer will not enter the WRC for the love of the sport.

Now are they doing any of the above ?? Not very successfully is the answer.

While I agree with your points, a lot of them were implemented when DR got the Commercial rights, when he bought ISC off Bernie.

He thought by having a central Service area this would make it would make it easier for sponsors/VIPs.
Having 9-5 hours making it easier for TV to cover.

All these changes, trying to make WRC like 'F1 on Gravel' haven't really worked - in fact it's had the opposite effect - and driven sponsors, Manufacturers, media, fans away.

I agree that rules/regs need to be stable, and in the current economic climate, simple - meaning cheap, simple cars that Privateers can be competitive with.

Having many Teams, Drivers, Manufacturers fighting for wins, Championships is what will bring in interest of media, fans, sponsors, etc
As you rightly say, Manufacturers are in it to sell cars - if they don't feel they are getting Value for Money, they will pull out - as many have - unfortunately, nothing was done. The warning signs were there as far back as 2004/05.