The Most Preposterous Countries

[Azumanga Davo]

I vote for Transnistria, even though it technically doesn't exist as such.

[Rollo]

How about the Kingdom of Lovely?

It was founded by King Danny I (Danny Wallace) in his flat in London and has about 65,000 citizens. This was started for the BBC series "How to Start Your Own Country".

He tried to enter Eurovision, and the United Nations at one point

http://www.citizensrequired.com
http://lovelycountry.net/

[Eki]

Or maybe Sealand:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/6239967.stm

Is it still for sale?

[Hondo]

Thanks for the update Eki. When I saw the thread I was thinking...didn't some people create their own nation on a gun platform off Briton sometime in the '60s? Now I remember.

[anthonyvop]

Finland is a pretty preposterous place full of silly people. Take away the rally anc race drivers and you have a land full of welfare clients like Eki.

[Mark in Oshawa]

In Canada, we have the "Republic of the Madawaska", a stretch of New Brunswick/Quebec and on the Maine side of a goofy bunch that always joke about having their own nation. That said....10000 people hating taxes and gov'ts on both sides of the border don't really have much of a country do they? lol

[Eki]

Finland is a pretty preposterous place full of silly people. Take away the rally anc race drivers and you have a land full of welfare clients like Eki.

Actually, I probably pay more income tax to Finland than Kimi Räikkönen and Heikki Kovalainen put together.

[DexDexter]

Finland is a pretty preposterous place full of silly people. Take away the rally anc race drivers and you have a land full of welfare clients like Eki.

:) You need to travel a bit more. Outside the US I mean.

[Eki]

:) You need to travel a bit more. Outside the US I mean.

Or at least outside Everglades.

[donKey jote]

squeeeeeal squeeeeeeeal :p
http://www.zazzle.com/deliverance_squeal_little_piggy_parody_dog_shirt-155581561788004074

[GridGirl]

Diego Garcia. Can I have my land back please?

[anthonyvop]

:) You need to travel a bit more. Outside the US I mean.
Don't ever assume. Makes you look silly.

[DexDexter]

Don't ever assume. Makes you look silly.

That is not an assumption. Even if you have travelled round the world a dozen times, you obviously need more. :) ( I know you were picking on Eki with that Finland comment).

[anthonyvop]

That is not an assumption. Even if you have travelled round the world a dozen times, you obviously need more. :) ( I know you were picking on Eki with that Finland comment).
It is Eki who needs to stop cashing his welfare checks and get out more.

[Eki]

It is Eki who needs to stop cashing his welfare checks and get out more.
Don't ever assume. Makes you look silly.

[Easy Drifter]

Tony----0
Eki------1 :D

[gloomyDAY]

I'm going to sponsor a fight between Tony and Eki.

3 round match @ 2 minutes a piece, 3 knockdown rule does not apply, and weight difference can be no more than 5kg. Let's get it on!

[anthonyvop]

Don't ever assume. Makes you look silly.

Don't have to assume.
You admitted on this forum that you accept "aid" from your government.

[janvanvurpa]

I'm going to sponsor a fight between Tony and Eki.

3 round match @ 2 minutes a piece, 3 knockdown rule does not apply, and weight difference can be no more than 5kg. Let's get it on!


Be careful, wasn't the motormouth Floridiot bragging he hangs out with murderous terrorists?

He seems deranged enough to do anything and is obviously living in some probably alcohol induced fantasy land where he's some sort of Rambo like character.

[Eki]

Don't have to assume.
You admitted on this forum that you accept "aid" from your government.

Yes, but that was years ago. Now I'm paying for others. I have paid my share and enjoyed my share. I think that's fair.

[anthonyvop]

Be careful, wasn't the motormouth Floridiot bragging he hangs out with murderous terrorists?


Really?
And who is that terrorist?

[BeansBeansBeans]

That is not an assumption. Even if you have travelled round the world a dozen times, you obviously need more.

Why? Travel isn't a cure for ignorance.

[Camelopard]

Really?
And who is that terrorist?

Well to vop you are only a murderous terrorist if you kill 'mericans.

Killing Muslims, Cubans, Venezuelans and Italian tourists/businessmen doesn't count, they just happen to be collateral damage, isn't that right E.D.?

[janvanvurpa]

Really?
And who is that terrorist?

Do you drink a lot?
You said you were drinking with the guy a few months ago.
Like he's your good friend.

Do you know too many murderers to keep straight who is who?

Or do you live in a fantasy land where everybody is a Castro-hating black ops hero so it's OK to kill aircraft loads of people.


Or do not remember one lie from the next?

[Easy Drifter]

Not to my mind.
So called collateral damage basically means you screwed up and killed the wrong people.
Unfortunately it does happen.

[janvanvurpa]

Really?
And who is that terrorist?

Do you drink a lot?
You said you were drinking with the guy a few months ago.
Like he's your good friend.

Do you know too many murderers to keep straight who is who?

Or do you live in a fantasy land where everybody is a Castro-hating black ops hero so it's OK to kill aircraft loads of people.


Or do you not remember one lie from the next?

[Camelopard]

Not to my mind.
So called collateral damage basically means you screwed up and killed the wrong people.
Unfortunately it does happen.

So killing Cubans, Venezeulans, Muslims and Italian businessmen/tourists is fine as long as it's a means to an end?

[Camelopard]

Not to my mind.
So called collateral damage basically means you screwed up and killed the wrong people.
Unfortunately it does happen.

So killing innocent Cubans, Venezeulans, Muslims and Italian businessmen/tourists is fine as long as it's a means to an end?

[Easy Drifter]

NO NO NO
That is exactly the opposite of what I meant.
Collateral Damage (what a mealy mouthed way of say things were f---ed up) should never happen.
It does happen. That does not make it right.
Personally I never hit any living thing I was not shooting at. I never shot the wrong thing. I very rarely missed what I was shooting at.
Take that however you want.

[Eki]

Not to my mind.
So called collateral damage basically means you screwed up and killed the wrong people.
Unfortunately it does happen.
So, if you only mean to kill the pilot and all the other in the plane also die when the plane blows up, they are collateral damage?

[DexDexter]

Why? Travel isn't a cure for ignorance.

It's not but it usually helps (to cure it). I mean living in the UK has certainly made me like you guys :)

[anthonyvop]

Do you drink a lot?
You said you were drinking with the guy a few months ago.
Like he's your good friend.

Do you know too many murderers to keep straight who is who?

Or do you live in a fantasy land where everybody is a Castro-hating black ops hero so it's OK to kill aircraft loads of people.


Or do you not remember one lie from the next?

If it is who I believe you are talking about...he was acquitted 3 times in a court of law.

Later in Panama he was convicted in a politically motivated trial and later pardoned.

So no terrorsit here.

[janvanvurpa]

If it is who I believe you are talking about...he was acquitted 3 times in a court of law.

Later in Panama he was convicted in a politically motivated trial and later pardoned.

So no terrorsit here.

Those acquittals are every bit as likely to have been politically motivated or pressured as anything.
Obviously you know you're toeing a line written in the blood of a lot of innocents, but you don't care, you think its clever parsing words carefully to try and act like he's clean and you're not a hypocritical poser.

[anthonyvop]

Those acquittals are every bit as likely to have been politically motivated or pressured as anything.
Obviously you know you're toeing a line written in the blood of a lot of innocents, but you don't care, you think its clever parsing words carefully to try and act like he's clean and you're not a hypocritical poser.

Why? I have stated the case. It is up to you to believe or defend a murderous, tyrannical dictatorship. So it is you who is a hypocrite.

[Eki]

Why? I have stated the case. It is up to you to believe or defend a murderous, tyrannical dictatorship. So it is you who is a hypocrite.
So, in your opinion it's OK to kill innocent people who have nothing to do with that "murderous, tyrannical dictatorship" if you believe you're fighting that dictatorship by doing so, and you're not a terrorist then?

[Camelopard]

If it is who I believe you are talking about...he was acquitted 3 times in a court of law.

Later in Panama he was convicted in a politically motivated trial and later pardoned.

So no terrorsit here.

It's ok to be a murderous terrorist when you work for the cia isn't it vop?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4535661.stm


You know as well as I do that he was never acquitted in Venezuela as he escaped from jail.


http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&safe=off&q=Luis+Posada+Carriles+acquitted&meta=&aq=f&oq=Luis+Posada+Carriles+acquitted&fp=c0fc67ffbccfb7cb


Just one from that list


http://www.familiesforjustice.net/common/assets/docs/articles/ingles/the-myth-of-the-double-acquittal.pdf



Do a booble search on him.

[anthonyvop]

It's ok to be a murderous terrorist when you work for the cia isn't it vop?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4535661.stm


You know as well as I do that he was never acquitted in Venezuela as he escaped from jail.


http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&safe=off&q=Luis+Posada+Carriles+acquitted&meta=&aq=f&oq=Luis+Posada+Carriles+acquitted&fp=c0fc67ffbccfb7cb


Just one from that list


http://www.familiesforjustice.net/common/assets/docs/articles/ingles/the-myth-of-the-double-acquittal.pdf



Do a booble search on him.

He actually was acquitted 3 times.
Your source is
Rosa Miriam Elizalde is a Cuban journalist, and José Pertierra is a Cuban-American attorney
with an office in Washington, D.C. This article first appeared in the Cubadebate website.
Both are known Castro supporters and thus are never to be believed nor trusted.

The Cubadebate website is a propaganda arm of the Murderous Castro regime.

Try again.

[anthonyvop]

So, in your opinion it's OK to kill innocent people who have nothing to do with that "murderous, tyrannical dictatorship" if you believe you're fighting that dictatorship by doing so, and you're not a terrorist then?

Eki,

You are an admitted Nazi defender so it is best you stay out of this discussion.

[cali]

Oh my dear....and i thought stupid americans were just a legend :rolleyes:

[Camelopard]

Eki,

You are an admitted Nazi defender so it is best you stay out of this discussion.

Your blinkered and biased view is based on your obviously extreme hatred of Castro, so those views and opinions can be discounted as well. It works both ways vop.

You know as well as I do, that anything you find to say he was acquitted, I can find an opposing view to say he wasn't and that he is still on the run.

The terrorist act that he committed killed 78 innocent people, not to mention that he was apparently behind bombings in hotels in Havana frequented by foreigners.

Still comes down to the fact that he is a murdering terrorist thug and to think otherwise just shows how stupid you really are.

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&source=hp&q=cuba+plane+bomber+was+cia+agent&meta=&aq=0&oq=cuba+plane+bom&fp=c0fc67ffbccfb7cb

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&safe=off&q=Luis+Posada+Carriles+acquittal+myth&meta=&aq=f&oq=Luis+Posada+Carriles+acquittal+myth&fp=c0fc67ffbccfb7cb



How many more links do you want?

[Easy Drifter]

Wow, what was supposed to be a fun thread ever gone off course.
To try and get us back here is my suggestion from the comic strip Tank Mcnamara:


CARJACKISTAN

[anthonyvop]

Your blinkered and biased view is based on your obviously extreme hatred of Castro, so those views and opinions can be discounted as well. It works both ways vop.

You know as well as I do, that anything you find to say he was acquitted, I can find an opposing view to say he wasn't and that he is still on the run.

The terrorist act that he committed killed 78 innocent people, not to mention that he was apparently behind bombings in hotels in Havana frequented by foreigners.

Still comes down to the fact that he is a murdering terrorist thug and to think otherwise just shows how stupid you really are.

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&source=hp&q=cuba+plane+bomber+was+cia+agent&meta=&aq=0&oq=cuba+plane+bom&fp=c0fc67ffbccfb7cb

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&safe=off&q=Luis+Posada+Carriles+acquittal+myth&meta=&aq=f&oq=Luis+Posada+Carriles+acquittal+myth&fp=c0fc67ffbccfb7cb



How many more links do you want?

WOW you google "Luis Posada Carriles acquittal myth" and you get pages of websites that support it. What a surprise!!!!

Funny that your tag is "A lie, if repeated often enough, turns into truth – the only truth."

Try this link
http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&safe=off&q=Castro+is+a+murderer&meta=&aq=&oq=&fp=c0fc67ffbccfb7cb

One more time.

HE WAS TRIED AND ACQUITTED THREE TIMES!!!!!!!!!!
No amount of Pro-Castro Websites propaganda will ever change that fact.

[Camelopard]

HE WAS TRIED AND ACQUITTED THREE TIMES!!!!!!!!!!



TRIED WHERE? WHO ACQUITTED HIM? POST SOME EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS THIS!

[Eki]

Wow, what was supposed to be a fun thread ever gone off course.
To try and get us back here is my suggestion from the comic strip Tank Mcnamara:


CARJACKISTAN
How about Racefanstan?

[janvanvurpa]

He actually was acquitted 3 times.
Your source is
Both are known Castro supporters and thus are never to be believed nor trusted.

The Cubadebate website is a propaganda arm of the Murderous Castro regime.

Try again.

You lie whenever you type.
You lie...like a Cuban....that is what you are isn't it?

You in fact are a propaganda arm for murdering narcoterrorist.

Of course this must also be propaganda but note something you reprehensible, shameless mouthpiece; Pointing out that you're lying about things you know full well about is not defending Casto's regime

Pointing out you're a liar has nothing to do with supporting---or no---Castro.

For those who want another view:
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/1288
Why Luis Posada Carriles Should Face Justice in Venezuela
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August 12th 2005, by Joshua Soren Graae - COHA
On October 6, 1976 a bomb on Cubana Airlines Flight 455 between Trinidad and Havana exploded, killing all 73 people on board. Luis Posada Carriles, a 77-year-old anti-Castro Cuban exile and foreign fugitive, is allegedly the mastermind behind the atrocity, an accusation which he has selectively acknowledged. Posada’s curriculum vitae is enough to make many notorious terrorists feel that they are little better than novices. For four decades he has planned, executed or otherwise participated in bombings, assassination attempts and covert insurrections in the service of his extremist causes. In 1985, while being tried in Venezuela for his role in the Cubana bombing, he escaped from prison and went straight to work with paramilitary forces in El Salvador. He also participated in a series of hotel bombings in Havana in 1997, killing an Italian tourist, and, in 2000, he attempted to assassinate Fidel Castro while the Cuban leader was visiting Panama. He was arrested and convicted for the latter crime but was pardoned and released in May of 2005 in an unaccountable move by the outgoing president of Panama, Mireya Moscoso, for which she was fiercely attacked in the Panamanian press.

Currently, Posada is held in a federal facility in El Paso, Texas, after being charged with illegally entering the United States. Meanwhile, Venezuela is seeking his extradition. Posada’s presence in the U.S. poses a delicate problem for the White House, which will have to decide between enforcing its zero-tolerance policy against terrorism or appeasing its influential Venezuelan and Cuban-exile constituents in Southern Florida, where many see him as a counter-revolutionary hero. Ironically, Posada is seeking asylum in the U.S., relying on his claims of innocence, his ancient relationship with Florida’s governor Jeb Bush and his employment as a mercenary in the service of the U.S.-backed Contras fighters in El Salvador.

A Misinterpreted Legal History
The complexities of Venezuelan law have helped to confound press coverage of the Posada case for a number of years. While the majority of media accounts have reported that he was acquitted twice in Venezuelan courts, this version of events does not withstand scrutiny. The distinction is quite important, as the merits of Posada’s asylum request would be bolstered were he able to show the acquittals. Though the details of his court records do prove somewhat elusive, this much is known: Posada was first tried before a military tribunal, which acquitted him of the crime of treason. However, a higher military court found that the lower one lacked jurisdiction and annulled the entire case, which was then handed off to the civil courts. They would have prima facie jurisdiction over Posada, as he was at the time a citizen of Venezuela. Initially, the prosecutors in the civil case declined to try him; their replacements, however, saw fit to bring homicide charges against Posada, and it was during this period that he escaped from prison. Since Venezuela does not reach verdicts on defendants in absentia, the litigation was stalled, while a warrant was issued for his arrest.

To Posada’s potential benefit, many have interpreted this lack of a verdict to mean that two Venezuelan courts have found him innocent of terrorism. However, neither of the legal actions against him carried any precedential effect. The military tribunal annulment effectively wiped the slate clean, resetting the entire judicial process and leaving all parties situated as if no legal action had ever occurred. Nor did the initial prosecutors’ failure to act on the case in the civilian courts have any effect. There are several reasons that prosecutors may decline a case, including lack of evidence, bribery, insufficient resources and political motivation. In the final analysis, Posada was in the process of facing prosecution for a major crime at the time when he escaped from Venezuela. Venezuela now wants to exercise its sovereign right to try him, but first must overcome the bias introduced by the press, whose inaccurate reporting may have inadvertently lent Posada an ersatz veil of innocence."

It's disgusting that a vocal supporter/propaganda mouthpiece/associate of a terrorist is allowed to spread filth here unrestrained.

[anthonyvop]

If you support the Murderous Castro regime in any way I have no sympathy for you.

[Eki]

If you support the Murderous Castro regime in any way I have no sympathy for you.
Who exactly has the Castro regime murdered? Can you name a few?

[Easy Drifter]

Eki you and I fight like cats and dogs.
This started off as a fun thread but somehow has become very nasty and has nothing to do with the original fun premise.
I would like the moderators to shut it down.
I hope you would support me.
Then you and I can get back to our usual wars. :D

[anthonyvop]

Who exactly has the Castro regime murdered? Can you name a few?

http://www.therealcuba.com/page5.htm

Even Michael Moore admits he murdered.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bAeH7C5SEE&feature=player_embedded



BTW One of those murdered by Castro was my Uncle. His crime being a landowner who actually was productive.

[Malbec]

http://www.therealcuba.com/page5.htm

Even Michael Moore admits he murdered.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bAeH7C5SEE&feature=player_embedded



BTW One of those murdered by Castro was my Uncle. His crime being a landowner who actually was productive.

Eki made a mistake, he should have asked whether Castro is more murderous than Battista. I suspect there's no comparison.

[anthonyvop]

Eki made a mistake, he should have asked whether Castro is more murderous than Battista. I suspect there's no comparison.

Well that is a fact.

If Batista was murderous we wouldn't be having this conversation. He would have done the right thing and executed Castro after the his terrorist attack on the Moncada Barracks. Sadly Batista listen to the Catholic Church and only imprisoned him then realeased him after a few years.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Who exactly has the Castro regime murdered? Can you name a few?


Eki, Look at Amnesty International's statements on Cuba. Look where they place on the oppressive regimes list with Amnesity and the UN. For you to try to defend this is utter stupidity. No wonder Anthony is so anti-communist when he tells us of losing a family member to Castro. I would be too....and when it comes to Cuba I am. Many Canadians go to Cuba, I wont for the reason I don't support dictators or the regimes they build.

Of course, you are consistent. Defending thugs and murdererous regimes that are branded this by not just right wing cranks but the UN and Amnesity International. I suspect Eki you would defend Mao given half a chance...

[Camelopard]

Eki, Look at Amnesty International's statements on Cuba. Look where they place on the oppressive regimes list with Amnesity and the UN. For you to try to defend this is utter stupidity. No wonder Anthony is so anti-communist when he tells us of losing a family member to Castro. I would be too....and when it comes to Cuba I am. Many Canadians go to Cuba, I wont for the reason I don't support dictators or the regimes they build.

Of course, you are consistent. Defending thugs and murdererous regimes that are branded this by not just right wing cranks but the UN and Amnesity International. I suspect Eki you would defend Mao given half a chance...


Look, this isn't about CASTRO or anyone other dictator, king or whatever.

Whether or not anyone here supports Castro is not the question.

It is about vop supporting and carousing with a known murdering terrorist thug.

It is the fact that people like vop and his murdering terrorist mate think that killing innocent people regardless of where they come from is ok as long as the end justifies the means. (A bit like the King David Hotel bombing imo)


Not only that, it can be agrued that the cia was behind a lot of this ars#holes deeds, certainly he was on their payroll, of that there can be no doubt. Declassified documents have shown this to be the case.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4535661.stm

[Camelopard]

TRIED WHERE? WHO ACQUITTED HIM? POST SOME EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS THIS!


Come on vop, I'm waiting......................

[Eki]

http://www.therealcuba.com/page5.htm

Even Michael Moore admits he murdered.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bAeH7C5SEE&feature=player_embedded



BTW One of those murdered by Castro was my Uncle. His crime being a landowner who actually was productive.
Sorry about your uncle. Was that recently, or about 50 years ago right after the Murderous Batista regime?

[Eki]

Well that is a fact.

If Batista was murderous we wouldn't be having this conversation. He would have done the right thing and executed Castro after the his terrorist attack on the Moncada Barracks. Sadly Batista listen to the Catholic Church and only imprisoned him then realeased him after a few years.
Or Batista could have made social reforms to improve the living standard of majority of Cubans, so that Castro would have lost his support and become irrelevant.

[anthonyvop]

Look, this isn't about CASTRO or anyone other dictator, king or whatever.

Whether or not anyone here supports Castro is not the question.

It is about vop supporting and carousing with a known murdering terrorist thug.

It is the fact that people like vop and his murdering terrorist mate think that killing innocent people regardless of where they come from is ok as long as the end justifies the means. (A bit like the King David Hotel bombing imo)


Not only that, it can be agrued that the cia was behind a lot of this ars#holes deeds, certainly he was on their payroll, of that there can be no doubt. Declassified documents have shown this to be the case.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4535661.stm

I already answered the question.

If you support the Murderous Castro regime in any way I have no sympathy for you.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Look, this isn't about CASTRO or anyone other dictator, king or whatever.

Whether or not anyone here supports Castro is not the question.

It is about vop supporting and carousing with a known murdering terrorist thug.

It is the fact that people like vop and his murdering terrorist mate think that killing innocent people regardless of where they come from is ok as long as the end justifies the means. (A bit like the King David Hotel bombing imo)


Not only that, it can be agrued that the cia was behind a lot of this ars#holes deeds, certainly he was on their payroll, of that there can be no doubt. Declassified documents have shown this to be the case.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4535661.stm

Well While I am not a supporter of this guy VOP espouses as some sort of hero, the lengths that people have tried to rationalize Castro's actions are more than offensive on the other side.

As for historical context, Batista was no saint to be sure, but Castro basically used Batitita's regime as justification for his taking control, and history has shown Castro's Cuba was in the end less helpful to the Cuban people...

[Camelopard]

I already answered the question.

In fact you haven't answered the question, nor do I expect you to as you can't prove he was acquitted.

And NO I don't support any murderous regime whether it is castro or any other ratbag like mugabe or the military dictatorship in Burma, or the cadres in the prc, as so on ad naseum.

I also have no sympathy for people like you and your mate (and murderous ars#holes like the stern gang) that use killing innocent people to make a political point, that goes for suicide bombers as well, or any form of terrorist act.

Anyway, your loving support of this cretinous murderous pr1ck is truely dispicable and yet again shows what a sad, lowlife of a person you are......

I hope you and your kind rot in hell for eternity.

[Eki]

Castro's Cuba was in the end less helpful to the Cuban people...
Not least because of the US sanctions on Cuba and the collapse of the Soviet Union, who were an important supporter and trading partner to Cuba.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Not least because of the US sanctions on Cuba and the collapse of the Soviet Union, who were an important supporter and trading partner to Cuba.

I guess the gulags full of people killed or tortured for disagreeing with Castro were the fault of the USA? How about ignoring the fact that western Europe and Canada all kept trading with Cuba during the embarago? The fact that Castro's Cuba was/is a dump wouldn't have ANYTHING to do with Socialism as practiced by a hardleft Communist regime? Really????

[anthonyvop]

If you visit Cuba you are supporting murderers.
If you spend money in Cuba you are supporting murderers.
If you give support in any way to Cuba you are supporting murderers.

If you support murderers then you are an accomplice to Murder.

I have no sympathy for them either.

[Mark in Oshawa]

If you visit Cuba you are supporting murderers.
If you spend money in Cuba you are supporting murderers.
If you give support in any way to Cuba you are supporting murderers.

If you support murderers then you are an accomplice to Murder.

I have no sympathy for them either.

At some point, the Cuban people stuck there get some benefit from trade from the outside. At least, that is the rationale given. I personally don't agree with it, but at some point, Cubans will find their way out of the dark hole they have been placed in by the Castro's. Then again, I don't see the world through your eyes Tony. You are so black and white on everything you ignore the fact that the world if full of nuances and grey areas.

[Eki]

I guess the gulags full of people killed or tortured for disagreeing with Castro were the fault of the USA? How about ignoring the fact that western Europe and Canada all kept trading with Cuba during the embarago? The fact that Castro's Cuba was/is a dump wouldn't have ANYTHING to do with Socialism as practiced by a hardleft Communist regime? Really????
You must look at their history and background. It wasn't a paradise on earth for most Cubans before the Castro either. I'm sure that at least in the 1980s it was a better place for more Cubans than during the Batista regime.

[Camelopard]

If you support murderers then you are an accomplice to Murder.

I have no sympathy for them either.


So that makes you an accomplice to murder then vop. Even worse if you openly acknowledge meeting with and enjoying the hospitality of a murderer.

I wouldn't be at all suprised if you had been mates with Orlando Bosch as well and regarded him as a hero, you hypocrite.

[anthonyvop]

So that makes you an accomplice to murder then vop. Even worse if you openly acknowledge meeting with and enjoying the hospitality of a murderer.

I wouldn't be at all suprised if you had been mates with Orlando Bosch as well and regarded him as a hero, you hypocrite.

How am I a hypocrite?

[Mark in Oshawa]

You must look at their history and background. It wasn't a paradise on earth for most Cubans before the Castro either. I'm sure that at least in the 1980s it was a better place for more Cubans than during the Batista regime.

Easy for you to say from Finland. Answer me this then: Why are people willing to risk their lives on the most decrepit rafts and contraptions to get to Florida? Explain to me why friends of mine who have gone to Varadero and other Cuban destinations take things like toilet paper and asprin with them to TIP their housekeeping staff at the resorts. Those same resorts that only allow the tourists to spend their money in US dollars at a ripoff rate while the staff make a fraction of what similar housekeeping staff make even in places like the Dominican Republic?

Eki, Cuba is a gulag with palm trees and maybe some concessions to helping people escape their misery. Batitsta was corrupt. Maybe a little rough. He didn't enslave his population. He didn't imprision and shoot anyone that disagreed with him, and he didn't keep the population on the island at gunpoint. As usual, your blind allegiance to any regime that annoys the Americans makes you over look many obvious faults.

Cuba is NOT a nicer place under Castro and his brother than it was in the 50's.

[Eki]

Easy for you to say from Finland. Answer me this then: Why are people willing to risk their lives on the most decrepit rafts and contraptions to get to Florida? Explain to me why friends of mine who have gone to Varadero and other Cuban destinations take things like toilet paper and asprin with them to TIP their housekeeping staff at the resorts.

They'd probably better to take those same precautions when traveling to some non-communist Central American countries too. And many from non-communist Central and South America like Mexicans risk their lives trying to sneak into the US illegaly too. So they're poverty is more to do with the history and culture of the area than with communism. Even communism itself is a result of poverty and grave social injustice in the area.


Batitsta was corrupt. Maybe a little rough. He didn't enslave his population. He didn't imprision and shoot anyone that disagreed with him, and he didn't keep the population on the island at gunpoint.

Maybe not, but he kept most of his people in extreme poverty.


As usual, your blind allegiance to any regime that annoys the Americans makes you over look many obvious faults.

Cuba is NOT a nicer place under Castro and his brother than it was in the 50's.
Of course I see Cuba has its faults now as it had before, but you are too blind to see that not everything in Cuba is bad under Castro. Some things are better under Castro than under Batista, like accessibility to good medical care and education.

[Mark in Oshawa]

They'd probably better to take those same precautions when traveling to some non-communist Central American countries too. And many from non-communist Central and South America like Mexicans risk their lives trying to sneak into the US illegaly too. So they're poverty is more to do with the history and culture of the area than with communism. Even communism itself is a result of poverty and grave social injustice in the area

Communism doesn't SOLVE poverty and social injustice, it just pretends to. ..


Mexicans and other people from Central America are coming TO America, but not across 95 miles of ocean full of currents and sharks. Drowning is the most likely fate of anyone trying to escape Cuba, yet they do it all the time. They didn't HAVE to in Batitista's day. They could take a boat out or fly out. Sorry, you can spin this anyway you want, but the point it people are willing to die just to get the hell out of Cuba. Don't insult anyone's intelligence trivializing this sort of effort. This isn't ike the Mexicans who sneak across the Rio Grande in the middle of the night....



Maybe not, but he kept most of his people in extreme poverty..
He didn't keep them in exteme poverty. No more than the people in Jamaica or the Dominican live in poverty. The reason of course is there isn't much of a natural economy past growing sugar, coffee, tobacco and catering to a tourist industry. THAT said, Batitista didn't shut them off or control their trade with the outside world. Anyone who has seen the island of Cuba since Castro took power will tell you that time has stood still on a lot of things, because Castro controls wages and access to jobs that pay above the few pennies per day that most make. Batitista NEVER controlled the island like that. He may have been in good with the mob and getting a cut of the casino's but people were left to their own devices.I would like proof of your assetion by the way...what was the GDP of Cubans under Batitista vs Castro?


Of course I see Cuba has its faults now as it had before, but you are too blind to see that not everything in Cuba is bad under Castro. Some things are better under Castro than under Batista, like accessibility to good medical care and education.

Good medical care? So good that when Fidel got sick he flew in doctors from Spain? Education? What good is that if your best job is likely to be folding and washing sheets in a hotel?

Eki...personal growth, personal wealth and freedom can get you medical care and education. People don't NEED the government to give it to them. They can get off their tails and achieve it. I have news for you Eki, no one flies to Cuba for their great medical care.

[ShiftingGears]

If you visit Cuba you are supporting murderers.
If you spend money in Cuba you are supporting murderers.
If you give support in any way to Cuba you are supporting murderers.

If you support murderers then you are an accomplice to Murder.

I have no sympathy for them either.

Please, grow up.

I have heard more rational reasoning from six year olds.

[Eki]

He didn't keep them in exteme poverty. No more than the people in Jamaica or the Dominican live in poverty. The reason of course is there isn't much of a natural economy past growing sugar, coffee, tobacco and catering to a tourist industry. THAT said, Batitista didn't shut them off or control their trade with the outside world.
He let the plantation owners and casino owners exploit the poor as near slave workforce. You have no idea why there has been revolutions in the world. When the working class and the tenant farmers in Finland decided to revolt in 1918 my greatgrandfather joined in and became a company commander in the Red Guard. In an interrigation document where his captors asked why he joined the Red Guard, he had replied "work at the factory ended, we lacked food and money. The Red Guard promised salary and aid for the family". There were no unemployment benefits then. My greatgrandfather never had a chance to go to any school and couldn't write. They lost that time, but thanks to people like him, the ruling classes made social reforms, partly in fear of an other revolution and civil war, so that I have been able to get a university education, 5 day working week, 7.5 hour work day, 5 week vacation every year, affordable healthcare and unemployment benefits.



I have news for you Eki, no one flies to Cuba for their great medical care.
Maybe some should. Child mortality rate and life expectancy in Cuba are about the same as in the US. Not bad for a third world country:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/cu.html
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html


US Infant mortality rate:
total: 6.26 deaths/1,000 live births
country comparison to the world: 180
male: 6.94 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 5.55 deaths/1,000 live births (2009 est.)

US Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 78.11 years
country comparison to the world: 50
male: 75.65 years
female: 80.69 years (2009 est.)


Cuba Infant mortality rate:
total: 5.82 deaths/1,000 live births
country comparison to the world: 181
male: 6.51 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 5.09 deaths/1,000 live births (2009 est.)

Cuba Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 77.45 years
country comparison to the world: 55
male: 75.19 years
female: 79.85 years (2009 est.)

But people don't have to fly to Cuba, because Cuba has educated so many doctors that they can export them to other countries:

http://mondediplo.com/2006/08/11cuba


Cuba exports health

Some 14,000 Cuban doctors now give free treatment to Venezuela’s poor and 3,000 Cuban medical staff worked in the aftermath of last year’s Kashmir earthquake. Cuba has plans to heal those poorer than itself.

In TRUE capitalism most people are not free, they are on mercy of their employers. And much is decided already at birth depending on who your parents happen to be and what are their social and wealth status.

[DexDexter]

Talking about Cuba, It would be cool to visit the place now before things change and the regime falls. After the fall of Castros it will become just another place full of tourists and McDonalds. I hear they still got the old American cars from the 50's.



Eki...personal growth, personal wealth and freedom can get you medical care and education. People don't NEED the government to give it to them. They can get off their tails and achieve it. I have news for you Eki, no one flies to Cuba for their great medical care.

Cuba is well-known for its medical care, I'm surprised you didn't know that. I thought it was common knowledge, obviously only on this side of the pond like sadly so many other things (based on what people write here).

[Malbec]

Eki, Cuba is a gulag with palm trees and maybe some concessions to helping people escape their misery. Batitsta was corrupt. Maybe a little rough. He didn't enslave his population. He didn't imprision and shoot anyone that disagreed with him, and he didn't keep the population on the island at gunpoint.

At some point Mark you're going to have to break this habit of talking nonsense. Battista WAS brutal, he ordered his army to put down strikes using lethal force. People opposing his rule disappeared and let me tell you that they weren't given first class tickets out of the country. He was no different from a number of latin american tinpot dictators and was more than happy to torture and kill his opponents. Insisting otherwise really doesn't do you credit.

[Mark in Oshawa]

You guys forget I haven't defended Batitista, but you keep overlooking that no one in Cuba is free. It is easy to sit here in western countries and debate this stuff, but no one can convince me that any of you wouuld want to live in Cuba. The old cars are because no one can afford to buy new cars, and the infrastructure in the country is crumbling when it isn't directly connected to the tourist trade. The USSR pumped money into the place, Canada and other Western European nations have traded with Cuba and all they have to show is healthcare. Which I will point out AGAIN that wasn't good enough for Fidel when he got ill. Great healthcare doesn't change the fact no one in Cuba controls their own destiny unless they are members of the elite.

I acknowledge the infant mortality rate and all of that in Cuba is better. I will give you those points, but prisoners in Canadian prisons get better access to healthcare than I like would ( they were given H1N1 ahead of a lot of people on the outside) but they are still in prison.

[Eki]

You guys forget I haven't defended Batitista, but you keep overlooking that no one in Cuba is free.
Castro and his ruling class are, just like Batista and his ruling class were.



but no one can convince me that any of you wouuld want to live in Cuba.
No one is trying to convince you. I wouldn't like to have lived in Cuba, before, during or maybe even after Castro. You're claiming every hardship in Cuba is Castro's fault. That's not true, there have been hardship in Cuba before Castro and most likely will be after him too.

[Eki]

The old cars are because no one can afford to buy new cars,
The US wouldn't sell them new cars even if they could afford them.

[Malbec]

You guys forget I haven't defended Batitista, but you keep overlooking that no one in Cuba is free. It is easy to sit here in western countries and debate this stuff, but no one can convince me that any of you wouuld want to live in Cuba. The old cars are because no one can afford to buy new cars, and the infrastructure in the country is crumbling when it isn't directly connected to the tourist trade. The USSR pumped money into the place, Canada and other Western European nations have traded with Cuba and all they have to show is healthcare. Which I will point out AGAIN that wasn't good enough for Fidel when he got ill. Great healthcare doesn't change the fact no one in Cuba controls their own destiny unless they are members of the elite.

No Mark you didn't defend Batista, you merely incorrectly stated that he didn't oppress his people, portraying him as merely corrupt. My point isn't that Castro is good for Cuba which is a belief I don't hold anyway, it is that you make a point of wading into arguments spouting falsehoods as truth.

[Malbec]

The US wouldn't sell them new cars even if they could afford them.

In addition the US imposes sanctions against all non-US companies that would sell cars (and most other consumer products) to Cuba. The message is you sell to Cuba or to the US but not both. Given the size/wealth of the US market effectively that prevents most trade to Cuba.

Funny that Mark thinks Cubans make do with 50s cars because they can't afford newer ones, I presume he hasn't been to poorer countries than Cuba where people still find a way to buy new cars. Its got nothing to do with poverty.

[ShiftingGears]

Talking about Cuba, It would be cool to visit the place now before things change and the regime falls. After the fall of Castros it will become just another place full of tourists and McDonalds. I hear they still got the old American cars from the 50's.

Yep. Trade embargo.


Cuba is well-known for its medical care, I'm surprised you didn't know that. I thought it was common knowledge, obviously only on this side of the pond like sadly so many other things (based on what people write here).

They have more doctors than Africa, which is pretty incredible.

[Eki]

Only 11% of people share Mark in O's love of cut-throat capitalism:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/8347409.stm


Twenty years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, a new BBC poll has found widespread dissatisfaction with free-market capitalism.

In the global poll for the BBC World Service, only 11% of those questioned across 27 countries said that it was working well.

Most thought regulation and reform of the capitalist system were necessary.

There were also sharp divisions around the world on whether the end of the Soviet Union was a good thing.

Economic regulation

In 1989, as the Berlin Wall fell, it was a victory for ordinary people across Eastern and Central Europe.

It also looked at the time like a crushing victory for free-market capitalism.



A Frankfurt trader tries to deal during the 2008 banking crisis
Twenty years on, this new global poll suggests confidence in free markets has taken heavy blows from the past 12 months of financial and economic crisis.

More than 29,000 people in 27 countries were questioned. In only two countries, the United States and Pakistan, did more than one in five people feel that capitalism works well as it stands.

Almost a quarter - 23% of those who responded - feel it is fatally flawed. That is the view of 43% in France, 38% in Mexico and 35% in Brazil.

And there is very strong support around the world for governments to distribute wealth more evenly. That is backed by majorities in 22 of the 27 countries.

If there is one issue where a global consensus seems to emerge from the survey it is this: there are majorities almost everywhere wanting government to be more active in regulating business.

It is only in Turkey that a majority want less government regulation.

Opinion about the disintegration of the Soviet Union is sharply divided.

Europeans overwhelmingly say it was a good thing: 79% in Germany, 76% in Britain and 74% in France feel that way.

But outside the developed West it is a different picture. Almost seven in 10 Egyptians say the end of the Soviet Union was a bad thing and views are sharply divided in India, Kenya and Indonesia.

[anthonyvop]

Only 11% of people share Mark in O's love of cut-throat capitalism:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/8347409.stm
What does that have to do with your support of a murderous dictatorship?

[DexDexter]

What does that have to do with your support of a murderous dictatorship?

Or CIA's?

[anthonyvop]

Or CIA's?

Sp predictable......Can't defend your argument so change the subject.

The fact is you support one of the most murderous regimes of the last 100 years.

[Mark in Oshawa]

In addition the US imposes sanctions against all non-US companies that would sell cars (and most other consumer products) to Cuba. The message is you sell to Cuba or to the US but not both. Given the size/wealth of the US market effectively that prevents most trade to Cuba.

Funny that Mark thinks Cubans make do with 50s cars because they can't afford newer ones, I presume he hasn't been to poorer countries than Cuba where people still find a way to buy new cars. Its got nothing to do with poverty.

REally Dylan you think I am that naive? I know that the US wont sell the Cubans the cars because of the embargo. Explain why there are a dearth of Fiats, Seats, VW's and the like then? Damn right it has EVERYTHING to do with a lack of wealth. The communist regime of Cuba, like the USSR, like East Germany and like the rest of the Communist bloc did everything they could to discourage personal freedoms and personal transportation. Cubans knew instincitively that a fixed up 55 Chev was better than a new Lada, and they also didn't have the wages to buy anything else the government might allow onto the island. The Cuban regime under Castro didn't want personal wealth and freedom. It flies in the face of keeping control. Batista for all his faults didn't stop Cubans from leaving the island. Castro wouldn't even give his citizens the choice of participating in the great experiment that is socialism as practiced by Castro.

You guys defend Castro, bragging of Cuba's medical system, yet no one seems to want to admit that Castro when his health went south flew in Doctors from Spain. I am sure he would have gone to the Mayo Clinic or John's Hopkins in Baltimore if he wasn't so vireuntly anti-Ameircan. The Americans should be trading with Cuba because their culture and influence would swamp the regime, but alas, that is their folly. Nevertheless, Cuba had the whole world to trade with and you can spout all you want about how it isn't Castro's fault the island is poor, I am not buying it. Cuba would be better off with a functioning, stable democracy. To argue otherwise is silly, although a few of you might try....

[Malbec]

REally Dylan you think I am that naive? I know that the US wont sell the Cubans the cars because of the embargo. Explain why there are a dearth of Fiats, Seats, VW's and the like then? Damn right it has EVERYTHING to do with a lack of wealth. The communist regime of Cuba, like the USSR, like East Germany and like the rest of the Communist bloc did everything they could to discourage personal freedoms and personal transportation. Cubans knew instincitively that a fixed up 55 Chev was better than a new Lada, and they also didn't have the wages to buy anything else the government might allow onto the island. The Cuban regime under Castro didn't want personal wealth and freedom. It flies in the face of keeping control. Batista for all his faults didn't stop Cubans from leaving the island. Castro wouldn't even give his citizens the choice of participating in the great experiment that is socialism as practiced by Castro.

You guys defend Castro, bragging of Cuba's medical system, yet no one seems to want to admit that Castro when his health went south flew in Doctors from Spain. I am sure he would have gone to the Mayo Clinic or John's Hopkins in Baltimore if he wasn't so vireuntly anti-Ameircan. The Americans should be trading with Cuba because their culture and influence would swamp the regime, but alas, that is their folly. Nevertheless, Cuba had the whole world to trade with and you can spout all you want about how it isn't Castro's fault the island is poor, I am not buying it. Cuba would be better off with a functioning, stable democracy. To argue otherwise is silly, although a few of you might try....

Who is 'you'? Could you please show me where I've defended Castro? I've been specifically careful not to in fact because I don't believe he is the right guy for Cuba. But there you go again, trying to lump me in with Eki etc etc, convenient isn't it. Can't you grasp that unlike you I don't see the world in simple black and white? Is that difficult? A bit like sticking to facts and not fiction eh?

Yes Cuba has 'new' cars, second hand ones bought off private individuals overseas against whom the US sanctions don't work. Is the lack of new cars due to poverty? Have you been to a truly poor country Mark? One like Nepal or Malawi where its not unknown for locals to starve to death? Have you seen how people there can still somehow find the cash to buy brand new cars if they can justify it? You think the US sanctions have NO effect on the Cuban market?

[Eki]

But there you go again, trying to lump me in with Eki etc etc, convenient isn't it. Can't you grasp that unlike you I don't see the world in simple black and white? Is that difficult? A bit like sticking to facts and not fiction eh?

Hey! Don't lump me in with etc etc. I've not defended Castro either. Just argued that he's not necessarily worse than Batista, just different, and that the world isn't simply black and white.

[Camelopard]

Hey! Don't lump me in with etc etc. I've not defended Castro either. Just argued that he's not necessarily worse than Batista, just different, and that the world isn't simply black and white.


I presume I'm part of the "etc" and I also don't want to be lumped with them.

I've never defended castro nor any other tyrannical regime, it's just like when one dares to criticise israel and their apartheid actions against the palestinians we are judged automatically to be anti-semitic and pro-terrorist, not to mention that some of you have even accused us of being members of the taleban (eh, e.d.?).

If you were to take off your blinkers it can be shown that the only pro-terrorist person here is our mate vop, as he has even admitted to meeting and enjoying the company of a murdering terrorist , ho hum.

"the world simply isn't black and white", that is exactly right Eki.

[anthonyvop]

Just argued that he's not necessarily worse than Batista, just different, and that the world isn't simply black and white.

And that is not defending Castro? in what way was Batista even close to the evil the Castro's are?
Did Batista execute 1000's?
Did Batista Jail 1000's more?
Did Batista export terrorism?

If Batista was as bad as Castro there would have been no Castro.

[Eki]

Did Batista execute 1000's?
Did Batista Jail 1000's more?

Collateral damage and enemy combatants. Bush has also killed tens of thousands and jailed 1000's more. He calls them collateral damage and enemy combatants.

[Eki]

And that is not defending Castro? in what way was Batista even close to the evil the Castro's are?

Did Batista execute 1000's?
Did Batista Jail 1000's more?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista


These measures broke the backbone of the Cuban army that would no longer be able to sustain a fight against Castro and his guerrilla army. [18][19] As popular unrest in Cuba intensified, Batista's police proved adept at torturing and killing young men in the cities, however his army proved singularly inept against Fidel Castro's rebels, who were based in the Sierra Maestra and Escambray mountains.[8] A more indicting observation is that of author Carlos Alberto Montaner: "Batista does not finish Fidel out of greed ... His is a government of thieves. To have this small guerrilla band in the mountains is to his advantage, so that he can order special defense expenditures that they can steal."[8]
Batista's rule became increasingly unpopular among the population, and the Soviet Union began a secret campaign of support for Fidel Castro.[20] In an effort to find out information about Castro's army, people were pulled in by Batista's secret police for questioning. Many innocent people were tortured, while suspects, including children, were publicly executed and then left hanging in the streets for several days as a warning to others who were considering joining Castro's insurgency.[15] The behavior of Batista's forces backfired, and actually increased support for the guerrillas. In 1958, forty-five organizations signed an open letter supporting the July 26 Movement. National bodies representing lawyers, architects, dentists, accountants and social workers were amongst those who signed. Castro, who had originally relied on the support of the poor, was now gaining the backing of the influential middle classes.[15]

[Camelopard]

Collateral damage and enemy combatants. Bush has also killed tens of thousands and jailed 1000's more. He calls them collateral damage and enemy combatants.

Well said Eki.

vop, you are a pr1ck and you deserve a slow and painful death and I truly hope it comes soon along with your myopic supporters like easy drifter. :(

Wotcha reckon easy drifter, prepared now to admit the fact that your mste vop is the devil incarnate?

Or are you such a coward that you will not admit you are wrong and that you support scumbag terrorists as long as they are not muslims?

Being a murdering terrorist is ok as long as those they kill and maim are people you consider to be beneath you.

[anthonyvop]

Collateral damage and enemy combatants. Bush has also killed tens of thousands and jailed 1000's more. He calls them collateral damage and enemy combatants.

Only in your world would putting people in front of firing squads without trial be "collateral damage."

[anthonyvop]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista

You might as well have a monkey type your source if you are going to use Wikipedia.

The fact of the matter is that if Batista was as evil as you on the left believe then we wouldn't have a Castro problem........He would have been shot.

[F1boat]

To me this argument is like arguing who is worse, Freddy or Jason...

[gloomyDAY]

To me this argument is like arguing who is worse, Freddy or Jason...Definitely Fred. By a mile. :D

[Eki]

You might as well have a monkey type your source if you are going to use Wikipedia.

The fact of the matter is that if Batista was as evil as you on the left believe then we wouldn't have a Castro problem........He would have been shot.
Batista wasn't shot either. He died naturally in Spain in 1973. See, Castro wasn't so bad?

[Eki]

You might as well have a monkey type your source if you are going to use Wikipedia.

I'd trust Wikipedia over anthonyvop as my source any day.

[anthonyvop]

Batista wasn't shot either. He died naturally in Spain in 1973. See, Castro wasn't so bad?
Wow! Are you that transparent?
Batista wasn't captured by Castro.
Castro was captured by Batista after his terrorist attack at the Moncada Barracks where dozens were murdered.
Castro then spent a few years in prison and then was pardoned....by Batista.

I am still waiting for you to explain to me me how 1000's executed by fireing squad with any trial is "Collateral Damage?"

[anthonyvop]

I'd trust Wikipedia over anthonyvop as my source any day.

That explains a lot.

[Eki]

I am still waiting for you to explain to me me how 1000's executed by fireing squad with any trial
I'm still waiting some reliable source to confirm that really happened, although the "collateral damage" part was meant as sarcasm, since Bush supporters use it as an excuse and claim that collateral damage is inevitable.


Can you comment on this, other than "Wikipedia is lying":


Batista's rule became increasingly unpopular among the population, and the Soviet Union began a secret campaign of support for Fidel Castro.[20] In an effort to find out information about Castro's army, people were pulled in by Batista's secret police for questioning. Many innocent people were tortured, while suspects, including children, were publicly executed and then left hanging in the streets for several days as a warning to others who were considering joining Castro's insurgency.[15]

Here's the original source, if Wikipedia isn't good enough for you:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/COLDbatista.htm


In an effort to find out information about Castro's army people were pulled in for questioning. Many innocent people
were tortured. Suspects, including children, were publicly executed and then left hanging in the streets for several days as a warning to others who were considering joining Castro.

[Camelopard]

Wow!

I am still waiting for you to explain to me me how 1000's executed by fireing squad with any trial is "Collateral Damage?"


I'm still waiting for you to explain how the innocent people killed by your murdering terrorist mate can be regarded as collateral damage?

Also you really should read what you type before you hit enter..... What the hell does "fireing squad with any trial is" mean?

[anthonyvop]

I'm still waiting for you to explain how the innocent people killed by your murdering terrorist mate can be regarded as collateral damage?
Castro is not my "mate".


Also you really should read what you type before you hit enter..... What the hell does "fireing squad with any trial is" mean?

You try to post from a Blackberry.

[Camelopard]

Castro is not my "mate".



You try to post from a Blackberry.

I know that castro isn't 'your' mate, you know darn well who I'm talking about, that p.o.s. posada, may he rot in hell with all the other terrorists when he dies.

That murdering terrorist is 'your' mate, remember, you were boasting about having afternoon tea with him just recently, or is your memory so poor you can't remember which terrorists you are pally with and which ones you aren't?


As an aside, just because wikipedia doesn't agree with your fanciful idea of history, it doesn't mean it's wrong. You can even have a part of what goes into making a wikipedia entry through the discussion section. Not happy about the entry about your mate batista or the role that the mafia played in pre-revolution cuba, not forgetting the cia and others? Then state your case on the discussion page.

As for the blackberry comment, maybe that is the reason why so many of yours posts are nonsensical.............. :p

[anthonyvop]

As for the blackberry comment, maybe that is the reason why so many of yours posts are nonsensical.............. :p

No it means that, unlike you, I am actually an asset to the economy.

As for the rest of your post.........I didn't learn history at Jr. College.

[Camelopard]

No it means that, unlike you, I am actually an asset to the economy.



This means what exactly? An asset to what economy, the 'black economy'? The 'drug economy'? The 'I don't pay taxes economy'?

As usual. more nonsensical crap from the great advocate of state sponsored terrorism!

Besides I bet my blackberry is bigger than your blackberry,,, so there.... :rolleyes:

[Camelopard]

As for the rest of your post.........I didn't learn history at Jr. College.


That is fairly obvious, I doubt very much you even went to high school let alone anything else........ :p :

[Eki]

As for the rest of your post.........I didn't learn history at Jr. College.
Apparently you didn't learn history anywhere.

[anthonyvop]

Apparently you didn't learn history anywhere.

I lived it.

[Eki]

I lived it.

And you still didn't learn that it's not good to be too greedy, exploit others and let them live in miserable poverty, because it may some day come back and bite you in the a$$? The Cuban revolution could have been avoided, you know.

[janvanvurpa]

I lived it.

Elaborate, tell us your story.

I myself am curious what you didn't go liberate your home, why you let all your countrymen rot under Castro's regime, why all the brave Cubanos in South Florida talk so much brave tough guy talk and do nothing.

What are you waiting for?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Elaborate, tell us your story.

I myself am curious what you didn't go liberate your home, why you let all your countrymen rot under Castro's regime, why all the brave Cubanos in South Florida talk so much brave tough guy talk and do nothing.

What are you waiting for?

Wasn't that the Bay of Pigs fiasco? Ummm Jan...I think Tony, as wacky as you think he is; is not going to raise an army and go back and knock Castro off. Nor can he go back and use political influence to beat Raul in an election...cuz of course there are not any. THat's ok...just beat the man up for being a Cuban on the wrong side of the strait....

[Mark in Oshawa]

And you still didn't learn that it's not good to be too greedy, exploit others and let them live in miserable poverty, because it may some day come back and bite you in the a$$? The Cuban revolution could have been avoided, you know.

It could have been done and then Castro could have served a few years as a democratically elected President, run the country under modern democratic principles and he could have been been a hero for life for people all over Cuba, other than his cronies.

[Camelopard]

It could have been done and then Castro could have served a few years as a democratically elected President, run the country under modern democratic principles and he could have been been a hero for life for people all over Cuba, other than his cronies.


I may be wrong, because I'm only going on what I found on the net, but didn't batista stage

not only 1 but 2 Coups?????


Please tell me how democratic that is.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I may be wrong, because I'm only going on what I found on the net, but didn't batista stage

not only 1 but 2 Coups?????


Please tell me how democratic that is.

I aint defending Batista. That said, as I said before; people were not willing to risk death on the Straits of Florida to escape Cuba when he was in power. What is more, they didn't have to worry about being shot or imprisioned for WANTING to leave Cuba.

You attack me on Batista but you cannot defend Castro. I didn't say Batista was a good leader or a saint. All I said is in ways he was better than Castro.

[Camelopard]

I aint defending Batista. That said, as I said before; people were not willing to risk death on the Straits of Florida to escape Cuba when he was in power. What is more, they didn't have to worry about being shot or imprisioned for WANTING to leave Cuba.

You attack me on Batista but you cannot defend Castro. I didn't say Batista was a good leader or a saint. All I said is in ways he was better than Castro.

I'm not attacking you and I'm not defending Castro.

The only ones I am attacking are murdering terrorists like vop's mate posada, some people seem to think he is a hero, when in fact he is the lowest form of life, lower than a suicide bomber because at least they die (and good riddance), vop's mate posada, made damn sure that he wasn't on the plane when it exploded, nor at any hotels when bombs that he was associated with exploded killing lot's of innocent people...... (but hey, you can do things like that when you are in the pay of the cia!!!) :(

[Roamy]

Well I am staying out of this one but if you have a extra box of Cohibas please send them my way :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

I'm not attacking you and I'm not defending Castro.

The only ones I am attacking are murdering terrorists like vop's mate posada, some people seem to think he is a hero, when in fact he is the lowest form of life, lower than a suicide bomber because at least they die (and good riddance), vop's mate posada, made damn sure that he wasn't on the plane when it exploded, nor at any hotels when bombs that he was associated with exploded killing lot's of innocent people...... (but hey, you can do things like that when you are in the pay of the cia!!!) :(

Posada is a terrorist, no argument from me. Doesn't change the fact the regime he is targeting is just as vile in my opinion.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well I am staying out of this one but if you have a extra box of Cohibas please send them my way :)

I could get em for you, but I would not want to risk importing them into your country.....US Customs don't have a sense of humour.....

[Eki]

Well I am staying out of this one but if you have a extra box of Cohibas please send them my way :)

I thought you smoke Habaneros.

[Roamy]

I thought you smoke Habaneros.

Only when I need to light a fire under my ass!!

[anthonyvop]

Well I am staying out of this one but if you have a extra box of Cohibas please send them my way :)

Try some Arturo Fuentes Opus X.....best cigar in the world and not made by slave labor.

I have a box of pre-Castro Davidoffs and 2 cases of Bacardi Anejo saved for a special day.

[anthonyvop]

Elaborate, tell us your story.

I myself am curious what you didn't go liberate your home, why you let all your countrymen rot under Castro's regime, why all the brave Cubanos in South Florida talk so much brave tough guy talk and do nothing.

What are you waiting for?
Who says i haven't?

BTW how often have you fought for the glorious revolution?

[janvanvurpa]

Who says i haven't?

BTW how often have you fought for the glorious revolution?


Tell us, don't be a slime ball and just answer a question with a nonsequitor question.
Tell us about how many Commies you've offed, or how many Arabiac terrorists.
Or whoever...

Links, names dates places, job titles.

I say you're just an armchair fantasy hero and will squirm out of admitting you've done sweet f*** all in your life except talk.


As to how often I've fought for "the" glorious revolution?

The revolution I'm fighting for I've been fighting for every day for 30 years this year.

[janvanvurpa]

This means what exactly? An asset to what economy, the 'black economy'? The 'drug economy'? The 'I don't pay taxes economy'?

As usual. more nonsensical crap from the great advocate of state sponsored terrorism!

Besides I bet my blackberry is bigger than your blackberry,,, so there.... :rolleyes:


Hey dude, I know your on the right side of things but don't be too harsh, he said he's an asset to "the" economy..
Don't you know what he does?
He posts re-written blurbs from races and rallies all around the world on the Inter-net, doood.

That's being a real asset!
Besides, he's in Flar-duh, it's too hot to do much of anything.

And he TALKS about some sorts of racing, that's REAL important. :rolleyes:

[Mark in Oshawa]

... how often I've fought for "the" glorious revolution?

The revolution I'm fighting for I've been fighting for every day for 30 years this year.

And what revolution would that be? I am scared yet curious...lol

[janvanvurpa]

And what revolution would that be? I am scared yet curious...lol

Was I speaking to you?

Didn't think so.

But since you asked:

The title of this thread is The Most Preposterous Countries, and I suggested Florida, not so much for the incredibly corrupt 3rd world style politics but for the huge amounts of wannabe tough guys in the truly bizarre Cuban community in South Florida all fixated on fantasies of 'bringing down Castro'; people like the obviously psychotic and clearly delusional Vop. Anybody that knows the politics of Florida even a bit knows there are 10s of thousands of guys that must be catered to for their votes and many are as loony as Vop or worse, but they cannot be ignored because their numbers makes them a powerful special interest group. USA idiotic stance viv-a-vis Cuba stems from nothing more than these gang of delusional burnt out fools. (Think about it for a second, we essentially totally embargo and forbid any contact at all with Cuba since whatever? '61 yet we had extensive trade in strategic materials with the Soviets, and the Chinese. USA bought most of the titanium and magnesium used in our advanced aircraft from Soviet Union, and we sold them directly or through intermediaries machinery, chemicals, engineering expertise etc for example this being an automotive forum you probably know that about 98% of all the worlds crownwheel and pinions rear axles are made on machines from Gleason Works, now Gleason Corp in Rochester NY company logo:Gleason Corporation - Keeping the World In Motion. Clear text, every ring and pinion in every Soviet truck, car, tank, etc was made on Gleason machinery. Now if we can sell them stuff we know is for their military, just as they sold us stuff they knew is going into our military, doesn't the total embargo with any even personal or sports contacts with Cuba seem a wee bit weird_
But the embargo persists and persists for purely domestic political reasons.
That's preposterous.

In any case Vop has made vague and contentless allusions in the past about living and working abroad to bolster a claim he knows what is happening everywhere.
I am asking what he did, for how long, and what he's done to 'bring down Castro'.
A detailing of a person's life experience can help us understand if a person is coherent or just a bag of hot air.

[Roamy]

Tell us, don't be a slime ball and just answer a question with a nonsequitor question.
Tell us about how many Commies you've offed, or how many Arabiac terrorists.
Or whoever...

Links, names dates places, job titles.

I say you're just an armchair fantasy hero and will squirm out of admitting you've done sweet f*** all in your life except talk.


As to how often I've fought for "the" glorious revolution?

The revolution I'm fighting for I've been fighting for every day for 30 years this year.

And which revolution is this?? And if victorious what would this mean i guess to mankind as I am not clear as to which country you represent.

[Camelopard]

In any case Vop has made vague and contentless allusions in the past about living and working abroad to bolster a claim he knows what is happening everywhere.
I am asking what he did, for how long, and what he's done to 'bring down Castro'.
A detailing of a person's life experience can help us understand if a person is coherent or just a bag of hot air.


That ain't going to happen, vop is full of hot air and as I stated a long time ago and something that he has never refuted, imo the only uniform vop has ever worn is the one when he has worked at maccas! "fries with that?"

I wonder if vop's health practitioner knows that he has stopped taking his medication?

As for US based cubans trying to over throw castro, wasn't the Bay of Pigs fiasco 50 years ago! That is half a century, surely with all the money and resources (covert and otherwise) the US has thrown at these cuban americans they could have organised something else in the last 50 years besides the cowardly terrorist actions of @rseholes like posada, bosch and similar.

I'm curious to know how many other western style democracies take in refugees, economic or otherwise and then allow these so called refugees to carry on like these guys do?

[Camelopard]

Your silence is deafening vop, seems that you are just full of yourself and a load of crap!

Too busy playing with your blackberry to respond? ho hum, another legend in his own lunch time...............

Come on vop, some of us would really like to know what you have done to help bring down the murderous castro regime, or are you far too busy making the ******** economy go round.









******** insert suitable word here. :)

[Rollo]

As to how often I've fought for "the" glorious revolution?

If you'd been just 14 years old at the end "the" Glorious Revolution, then you'd be 335 years old now. Are zombies allowed to claim the pension? :D

[anthonyvop]

Your silence is deafening vop, seems that you are just full of yourself and a load of crap!

Too busy playing with your blackberry to respond? ho hum, another legend in his own lunch time...............

Come on vop, some of us would really like to know what you have done to help bring down the murderous castro regime, or are you far too busy making the ******** economy go round.

******** insert suitable word here. :)

None of your F8cking Business. I don't need your validation.

[Camelopard]

None of your F8cking Business. I don't need your validation.


Oh diddums, having a bad day are we? Just proves what I've always thought, you are a dreamer and very sad person.

If you are truely representative of the anti castro forces in the US then I'm not suprised that you guys haven't achieved anything constructive in the fifty (that is half a century!) years that the castro's have been in power.

Go back to your hollywood style rambo movies where you can dream that you actually won something. Maybe you could invade Grenada again just because you can...........


In the mean time just to make you feel wanted, "yes, I will have fries with that". :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

Was I speaking to you?

Didn't think so.

But since you asked:

The title of this thread is The Most Preposterous Countries, and I suggested Florida, not so much for the incredibly corrupt 3rd world style politics but for the huge amounts of wannabe tough guys in the truly bizarre Cuban community in South Florida all fixated on fantasies of 'bringing down Castro'; people like the obviously psychotic and clearly delusional Vop. Anybody that knows the politics of Florida even a bit knows there are 10s of thousands of guys that must be catered to for their votes and many are as loony as Vop or worse, but they cannot be ignored because their numbers makes them a powerful special interest group. USA idiotic stance viv-a-vis Cuba stems from nothing more than these gang of delusional burnt out fools. (Think about it for a second, we essentially totally embargo and forbid any contact at all with Cuba since whatever? '61 yet we had extensive trade in strategic materials with the Soviets, and the Chinese. USA bought most of the titanium and magnesium used in our advanced aircraft from Soviet Union, and we sold them directly or through intermediaries machinery, chemicals, engineering expertise etc for example this being an automotive forum you probably know that about 98% of all the worlds crownwheel and pinions rear axles are made on machines from Gleason Works, now Gleason Corp in Rochester NY company logo:Gleason Corporation - Keeping the World In Motion. Clear text, every ring and pinion in every Soviet truck, car, tank, etc was made on Gleason machinery. Now if we can sell them stuff we know is for their military, just as they sold us stuff they knew is going into our military, doesn't the total embargo with any even personal or sports contacts with Cuba seem a wee bit weird_
But the embargo persists and persists for purely domestic political reasons.
That's preposterous.

In any case Vop has made vague and contentless allusions in the past about living and working abroad to bolster a claim he knows what is happening everywhere.
I am asking what he did, for how long, and what he's done to 'bring down Castro'.
A detailing of a person's life experience can help us understand if a person is coherent or just a bag of hot air.

First off, if you were ONLY speaking to VOP, you could of PM'd him. Since You didn't, I wanted your take. And I know this may shock you, but on Cuba, to a certain extent, I agree with you. The USA's stance on Cuba is a political sop to Tony and his buddies in South Florida. I agree with you that since the US trades to China (too much to its detriment) and did trade to an extent with the USSR, that the stance towards Cuba was antiquated.

I do get WHY people thought the embargo was a good idea. I just know that in the land of results, it didn't bring down Castro. Castro may be an avowed Marxist, and I may personally think he is a slime ball, but the embargo didn't accomplish what it was designed to do, and furthermore, the rest of the world just took advantage of it.

See Jan, on occasion, you and I are NOT on the opposite sides of things. That said, don't get all warm and fuzzy about this....

[janvanvurpa]

First off, if you were ONLY speaking to VOP, you could of PM'd him. Since You didn't, I wanted your take. And I know this may shock you, but on Cuba, to a certain extent, I agree with you. The USA's stance on Cuba is a political sop to Tony and his buddies in South Florida. I agree with you that since the US trades to China (too much to its detriment) and did trade to an extent with the USSR, that the stance towards Cuba was antiquated.

I do get WHY people thought the embargo was a good idea. I just know that in the land of results, it didn't bring down Castro. Castro may be an avowed Marxist, and I may personally think he is a slime ball, but the embargo didn't accomplish what it was designed to do, and furthermore, the rest of the world just took advantage of it.

See Jan, on occasion, you and I are NOT on the opposite sides of things. That said, don't get all warm and fuzzy about this....


Don't worry I won't.
But to expand on the ways to bring down rigid totalitarian regimes---whatever widow dressing they may hang above the border crossing, what I don't understand is how supposedly smart people could continue this fruitless enterprise rather than answer the er segment of the Cuban community with the truth and just say
"You dolts, we've screwed up trying the absurd hard ass way, and have made ZERO effect, now lets try what Western Europe , led by West Germany, did with the East Bloc and Soviet Union and tie them up in interdependent trade, cultural, sports exchanges etc.
Now we've brayed a lot of chest puffin' stuff directed at our Anglo versions of you delusional Chicken hawks about how Ronnie Reagan "won the Cold War" but that was for domestic consumption to appease the idiots just like we say a lot of stupid this about Castro to keep you poseurs happy, but anybody with a brain knows the old Soviet regime fell apart because people, millions of people, just decided they'd had enough---because that KNEW what life "im dem West" was like, hell the was even a saying "der West ist die beste".
So you senile schmucks, we accomplish a lot more by close engagement, getting them Rooskies used to using Western Engineering, Western planning, Western high tech junk, and by getting them used to our buying their stuff, so we're not going to coddle you old dying dinosaurs anymore, we're going act like a powerful country who has nothing to fear from a tiny, poor backwards place. We'll treat them like a neighbor. We don't have to like them to deal with and do business with them, but we have to give them some respect just as we expect respect of them, OK. Now go get some productive jobs"
If we had pursued that policy for say 45 years then the incredibly stupid Cuban 'revanchiste' community might have figured it was right. Eventually.

I am always optimistic, and believe that the truth eventually triumphs over stupidity and lies, even with a group of people who have proven so imperious to all reasoning for so long, but at some point the truth has to be spoken to them, and stop pandering to their idiotic fantasies just for votes.

Or we wait for the twits to die out.

[janvanvurpa]

Oh diddums, having a bad day are we? Just proves what I've always thought, you are a dreamer and very sad person.

If you are truely representative of the anti castro forces in the US then I'm not suprised that you guys haven't achieved anything constructive in the fifty (that is half a century!) years that the castro's have been in power.

Go back to your hollywood style rambo movies where you can dream that you actually won something. Maybe you could invade Grenada again just because you can...........


In the mean time just to make you feel wanted, "yes, I will have fries with that". :)

Tsk tsk tsk! I'm going to have to scold you now for mixing things up here!
Rambo was an American and it was the Americans
who singlehandedly won WWI, WWII, Korea, Viet Nam and the glorious victory
over those vile Commie Cuban construction detachment soldiers on Grenada.

See Vop is Cuban, or i least I think he claimed that at some pount, so he wouldn't be dreaming of Rambo, cause Rambo kills at least 100 commies per hour and he could be one of them!! He may currently hold a US Passport, but that could just be for convenience.

He should be fantasising about being....uhm er......bugger me if I can think of any Cubans who ever did anything worth a damn militarily.

Well maybe he should just be dreaming about cutie-pie Cubanas, cause even if most of the men are idiots, many of the women are beautiful.

[Roamy]

Janvan

You have the biggest chip in history on you shoulder. I just wonder do you have any friends?? Your incessant blab about the right seems to be almost militant. I wonder if you have a big stash of guns and and bombs hidden in some giant freaking tree up there.

[Mark in Oshawa]

There you go Jan...going off the rails with your delusions.

Reagan had nothing to do with the wall coming down? REALLY? I guess pushing the Russians to spend more than they could afford ruining their economy was not a factor? REALLY??? I guess the Solidarity movement was just a fiction too? How about The Pope? JP2 encouraging all those Poles to ignore their Communist Masters didn't mean much. The people just decided they had enough? No one with any sense of logic sees the latter without seeing the former. If Reagan doesn't push the East Bloc economic tractor into a race it cannot win, the Russkies may have the money to help clamp down the rebellious Poles egged on by their Pope. When that didn't happen, then yes, the Easties decided to take their little Trabbies to Prague and then west thru to Austria. None of this happens if the Russians can spend the money it would cost to militarily intervene as they did in Hungary in 56 or in the Prague Spring in 68. By the time 89 comes along, the East Bloc'military machine is wore out, the discipline is gone, and the military is broke. If Reagan didn't push the cold war buildup into overdrive, the USSR and its satellites would have likely had enough dough and resolve to crush the uprising...

Of course, you will see it otherwise Jan. You always do....

[janvanvurpa]

Janvan

Your incessant blab about the right seems to be almost militant. .

fousto


Offline
Posts: 18,134
Join Date: Oct 2000

Let's see, Fousto 18,134 posts
Me, 1300 and change

Incessant blab....

Always said you're a Liberal trying to pull off an elaborate and insane parody of a right wing kook.
You're slipping there bub, making the parody too obvious.

[Mark in Oshawa]

fousto


Offline
Posts: 18,134
Join Date: Oct 2000

Let's see, Fousto 18,134 posts
Me, 1300 and change

Incessant blab....

Always said you're a Liberal trying to pull off an elaborate and insane parody of a right wing kook.
You're slipping there bub, making the parody too obvious.

Jan...I just put Fousto down as a right wing kook....but hey, I have hung out with them. They know how to keep the beer cold and laugh at themselves on occasion....

[Mark in Oshawa]

I am always optimistic, and believe that the truth eventually triumphs over stupidity and lies, even with a group of people who have proven so imperious to all reasoning for so long, but at some point the truth has to be spoken to them, and stop pandering to their idiotic fantasies just for votes.

Or we wait for the twits to die out.

Gee...I keep thinking that way about limo libreals, eco weenie tree huggers, and the kooky left wingers who think Obama is too conservative too....

[Roamy]

fousto


Offline
Posts: 18,134
Join Date: Oct 2000

Let's see, Fousto 18,134 posts
Me, 1300 and change

Incessant blab....

Always said you're a Liberal trying to pull off an elaborate and insane parody of a right wing kook.
You're slipping there bub, making the parody too obvious.


I knew it you have the weapons stashed !!!!