Button and Brawn champs...

[Daniel]

Title says it all

[Garry Walker]

dissapointing that the title is won by a guy who has 1 podium in the 2nd half of the season.

[UltimateDanGTR]

dissapointing that the title is won by a guy who has 1 podium in the 2nd half of the season.

fair, but some great driving by bunsen today, hadnt got the best car, but a champion drive today.

[F1boat]

I Am So Happy! Happy! Happy! Happy!

[Garry Walker]

fair, but some great driving by bunsen today, hadnt got the best car, but a champion drive today.

Nothing great about his drive today. Kimi finished 4 seconds behind him, with a massively slower car.
Hamilton beat him starting from a lower grid position

[ioan]

dissapointing that the title is won by a guy who has 1 podium in the 2nd half of the season.

Yep. Weakest champion that I witnessed in F1 in 20 years of watching.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Nothing great about his drive today. Kimi finished 4 seconds behind him, with a massively slower car.
Hamilton beat him starting from a lower grid position

because kimi and hammy are better drivers.....

[ioan]

yes, but kimi and hammy are better drivers anyway.....

That's unquestionable IMO.

[Garry Walker]

Yep. Wwakest champion that I witnessed in F1 in 20 years of watching.

I would agree with that.

[UltimateDanGTR]

That's unquestionable IMO.

well ofcourse, thats my point.

[Koz]

A champion who couldn't overtake a guy driving his first GP so bitched and moaned instead.

What a great champion.

[AndyL]

Nothing great about his drive today. Kimi finished 4 seconds behind him, with a massively slower car.
Hamilton beat him starting from a lower grid position

:crazy:
I guess you didn't notice but Kimi started 9 places ahead of Button, and Hamilton got ahead mainly through smart strategy by McLaren helped by a fortuitous safety car. Oh and Kimi and Lewis are not exactly the worlds worst drivers are they :)

[F1boat]

Yep. Weakest champion that I witnessed in F1 in 20 years of watching.

Better to be the weakest champion than the best non-champion.

[Garry Walker]

:crazy:
I guess you didn't notice but Kimi started 9 places ahead of Button, and Hamilton got ahead mainly through smart strategy by McLaren helped by a fortuitous safety car. Oh and Kimi and Lewis are not exactly the worlds worst drivers are they :)

I guess you didnt notice how Kimi didnt have a front wing after a few corners due to Webber. The fact that Kimi started in front of Button considering their cars is an embarrassment to Button anyway.

[harsha]

Better to be the weakest champion than the best non-champion.

yup,i agree :up: , at the end of the day...Jensen's got his name down as the WDC,not rubens,

[Daniel]

Classless comments by Button in the after race scum. Taking a dig at a guy in his first race who only moved over a little when you've won your title..... why?

[UltimateDanGTR]

A champion who couldn't overtake a guy driving his first GP so bitched and moaned instead.

What a great champion.

he did get past him-eventually. and kobayashi was doing some great defensive driving.

Jenson should've got past the guy faster, but at least he did in the end. these things take time, this is F1

[harsha]

I guess you didnt notice how Kimi didnt have a front wing after a few corners due to Webber. The fact that Kimi started in front of Button considering their cars is an embarrassment to Button anyway.

how is it an embarassment to Button when the first qualifying session essentially was a lottery :?:

[Dave B]

Yeah Baby! Ignore the sad and bitter detractors and celebrate a brilliant championship! :champion: :up:

[Koz]

:crazy:
I guess you didn't notice but Kimi started 9 places ahead of Button, and Hamilton got ahead mainly through smart strategy by McLaren helped by a fortuitous safety car. Oh and Kimi and Lewis are not exactly the worlds worst drivers are they :)

And kimi had a pitstop on the first lap. And why not compare one champion with another?

Alonso, Schumacher, Hamilton, Kimi, Hakkinen - is this man worthy of being on the same spot as them?
I very much doubt it.

Kudos to him for crawling through the second half of the season like a snail.

[Garry Walker]

how is it an embarassment to Button when the first qualifying session essentially was a lottery :?:

How was it a lottery? You simply had to drive fast in difficult conditions.

Besides that, we are talking about Q2 where Button fell out and Kimi got through to Q3.

[AndyL]

He certainly answered the critics today with an agressive drive at last. :)

I would have thought the same, but according to a lot of people passing 4 of the newer drivers on track just demonstrates how rubbish he is :crazy:

[Garry Walker]

Classless comments by Button in the after race scum. Taking a dig at a guy in his first race who only moved over a little when you've won your title..... why?

What did Button say?

I have always found him a pathetic person, especially after his Williams/BAR contract saga.

[harsha]

How was it a lottery? You simply had to drive fast in difficult conditions.

Besides that, we are talking about Q2 where Button fell out and Kimi got through to Q3.

oops yeah...sorry my bad :)

Jensen Button paid the price for not switching tyres.....

[UltimateDanGTR]

I would have thought the same, but according to a lot of people passing 4 of the newer drivers on track just demonstrates how rubbish he is :crazy:

its a strange world.............

[Koz]

he did get past him-eventually. and kobayashi was doing some great defensive driving.

Jenson should've got past the guy faster, but at least he did in the end. these things take time, this is F1

Sure, but does he have to moan about it?

[UltimateDanGTR]

Sure, but does he have to moan about it?

yeah thats fair he doesnt but you forget, he's british. the top 3 things brits do:

1.Moan
2.Que
3. Pay taxes

nuff said ;)

[Daniel]

What did Button say?

I have always found him a pathetic person, especially after his Williams/BAR contract saga.
I should point out that I said scrum. I can't remember exactly what he said about Kobayashi but IIRC he said "Kobayashi was absolutely crazy" or something similar. I certainly didn't see any need for those comments.

[AndyL]

I want to hear whether Nakajima agrees with Jenson's assessment of Kobayashi's mental health :)

[Easy Drifter]

Brawn won.
Jenson won.
What a bunch of sourpusses.
I doubt if any of you could keep a F1 car on the pavement in the dry in a straight line.
I raced professionally for several years and I doubt if I could let alone do a lap at anything resembling race speed. :(

[Malbec]

I've been a fan of the Brackley boys ever since their inception as BAR, simply can't believe they've finally become champions after such a long grueling time.

Absolutely fantastic stuff, just such a shame to see Rubens have yet another torrid Brazilian GP...

[SGWilko]

I should point out that I said scrum. I can't remember exactly what he said about Kobayashi but IIRC he said "Kobayashi was absolutely crazy" or something similar. I certainly didn't see any need for those comments.

Classy - Kobayashi's weaving under braking eventually put paid to his fellow countryman - and it wasn't even investigated.

[Allyc85]

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!

Suported Button ever since he had the test shoot out for the Williams seat in 2000 and today feels so, so sweet!

[UltimateDanGTR]

Classy - Kobayashi's weaving under braking eventually put paid to his fellow countryman - and it wasn't even investigated.

yeah i quite agree on the kobbi and nakki thing. that was very stupid and dangerous, even a rookie should've known better, but as for being infront of buton i didnt see him doing anything dangerous or bad then, just fighting and racing hard which was his right to do. and well done to him, shame he got carried away against his fellow countryman. up until then, i was impressed.

[Garry Walker]

I doubt if any of you could keep a F1 car on the pavement in the dry in a straight line.
I raced professionally for several years and I doubt if I could let alone do a lap at anything resembling race speed. :(
So what?
No one here has ever claimed to be better at racing F1 cars than Button.

[Dave B]

I've just cracked open a rather fine Merlot and am drinking to Jenson and Ross; and laughing at all those who have such bitterness and negativity that they cannot bring themselves to say congratulations for a job well done.

[Malbec]

yeah i quite agree on the kobbi and nakki thing. that was very stupid and dangerous, even a rookie should've known better, but as for being infront of buton i didnt see him doing anything dangerous or bad then, just fighting and racing hard which was his right to do. and well done to him, shame he got carried away against his fellow countryman. up until then, i was impressed.

My thoughts exactly, didn't see Kobayashi behaving too badly in front of Button who wasn't often close enough in the braking points to attempt a pass anyway. I thought a lot of that was down to setup differences with Toyota having more downforce and better traction.

[Garry Walker]

I've just cracked open a rather fine Merlot and am drinking to Jenson and Ross; and laughing at all those who have such bitterness and negativity that they cannot bring themselves to say congratulations for a job well done.

I am laughing at your choice of alcohol :D

[Dave B]

Lauda (just now on BBC): "he can call himself a worthy world champion because he is world champion". :up:

[christophulus]

Congratulations Brawn and Button, they've done the best job this year and are deserving champions :up:

[Dave B]

I am laughing at your choice of alcohol :D
If my biggest problem right now is a bigot laughing at my choice of drink, then I'd say I've got a pretty good life :s mokin:

[VkmSpouge]

Congratulations to Jenson Button!

He drove brilliantly today, a champions drive with some good overtaking moves.

Of course over the entire season Button has been clearly the best driver. When he had the best car he took full advantage of it and used it to devastating effect on his rivals. Then in the second half of the year when the Brawn was no longer the best car, he did what he had to and picked up enough points to defeat his rivals.

An utterly deserving world champion. Well done!

:D

Congratulations to Brawn Grand Prix!

They built the best car, took advantage of a loophole in the rules with the double diffuser. A great story too, as Honda they were just about the worst team last year, then they went to the brink and now they've won the Constructors' World Championship.

[Robinho]

grrat stuff - if you think he shouldn't have won then have a go at the losers he beat, they should have stepped up if Button is so poor. over the season he won 6 races, twice as much as anyone else and has protected a large lead for a long time - great season, great championship, congratulations

[Robinho]

I am laughing at your choice of alcohol :D

whats wrong with Merlot? are you more of a Lambrini lover?

[Garry Walker]

If my biggest problem right now is a bigot laughing at my choice of drink, then I'd say I've got a pretty good life :s mokin:

:( :( :(

[Garry Walker]

whats wrong with Merlot? are you more of a Lambrini lover?
I just hate wines in general, cant stand that stuff at all.

If I drink, then I prefer a bit stonger stuff.

[Dave B]

And there's me thinking you were a bitter man. Bitter the drink, obviously... ;)

[Yesman]

Very happy for Jense, probably has the most overtakes in a season for any champion. I know Hamilton made two last year, Schuey overtook most of his rivals whilst they were in pits, Alonso, Kimi..didn't make too many either.

God knows why Jense became so crap at qualifying, but during the races he put it all on the line. Kudo's to him. He made things very hard for himself and he still came through.

And to think many of guys on here were complaining after 7 races how boring the season was because he kept winning.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Congratulations to Jenson and the entire team.

[N. Jones]

Better to be the weakest champion than the best non-champion.

:up: well said.

[Allyc85]

Congratulations to Jenson Button!

He drove brilliantly today, a champions drive with some good overtaking moves.

Of course over the entire season Button has been clearly the best driver. When he had the best car he took full advantage of it and used it to devastating effect on his rivals. Then in the second half of the year when the Brawn was no longer the best car, he did what he had to and picked up enough points to defeat his rivals.

An utterly deserving world champion. Well done!

:D

Congratulations to Brawn Grand Prix!

They built the best car, took advantage of a loophole in the rules with the double diffuser. A great story too, as Honda they were just about the worst team last year, then they went to the brink and now they've won the Constructors' World Championship.

%100 spot on!

And well done to Rubens for never giving up and being such a graceful loser. :)

[F1boat]

%100 spot on!

And well done to Rubens for never giving up and being such a graceful loser. :)

I agree!

[Corny]

Can't say well done, but congratulations for Jenson!

Not that I have anything against him, but I've read an interview where he said he was the best driver ever, with MS on second place. Well, MS is what I call a 'world champion'..

[Robinho]

Rubens was a class act after the race, nice touch applauding each other in the cars, nice hugs after the race and nice words from Rubens after also

[F1boat]

Rubens was a class act after the race, nice touch applauding each other in the cars, nice hugs after the race and nice words from Rubens after also

Yes it was very touching. If Jenson is now part of history as F1 WDC, Rubens will surely be remembered as one of the best non-champions...

[ioan]

Better to be the weakest champion than the best non-champion.

Not sure about that.
Stirling Moss is a great non champion that will be long cherished by F1 fans.
Button will be remembered as a weak champions.

I'd prefer to be the former one.

[Dave B]

There's an excellent analysis from Mark Hughes here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8312844.stm

It'll make pretty unpleasant reading for Jenson's detractors, but hey... ;)

[AndyL]

Rubens was a class act after the race, nice touch applauding each other in the cars, nice hugs after the race and nice words from Rubens after also

Spot on, very classy from Rubens.

When they interviewed Jock Clear after the race he didn't quite confirm that Rubens is out of the team, but seemed pretty resigned to that being the case. Which is a real shame for Rubens, he hardly deserves to be getting the sack after all he's done this year.

[ioan]

There's an excellent analysis from Mark Hughes here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8312844.stm

It'll make pretty unpleasant reading for Jenson's detractors, but hey... ;)

Like if I would even bother to read the words of a biased British 'journalist'! :rotflmao:

[Wasted Talent]

Congratulations to Jenson Button!

He drove brilliantly today, a champions drive with some good overtaking moves.

Of course over the entire season Button has been clearly the best driver. When he had the best car he took full advantage of it and used it to devastating effect on his rivals. Then in the second half of the year when the Brawn was no longer the best car, he did what he had to and picked up enough points to defeat his rivals.

An utterly deserving world champion. Well done!

:D

Congratulations to Brawn Grand Prix!

They built the best car, took advantage of a loophole in the rules with the double diffuser. A great story too, as Honda they were just about the worst team last year, then they went to the brink and now they've won the Constructors' World Championship.

Yep, well done Jenson - worthy WDC over the season.

What a bunch of saddo's there are on this forum - just because their favourite driver hasn't won this year! I'm surprised at how little supposed enthusiasts who come on here actually understand about motor racing.....

Should be an interesting race in Abu Dhabi, and then into 2010.

Just remember how boring things were when Schumacher was hoovering up races and titles, biggest budget = most points. Now hopefully things will have changed for good - less predictible results all season long.

WT

[Dave B]

Like if I would even bother to read the words of a biased British 'journalist'! :rotflmao:
Your loss. FWIW Hughes doesn't stick his tounge up Jenson's backside - far from it - but gives equal consideration to his weaknesses and flaws. It's a good read, but I can only lead a horse to water, I can't make it think.

[Wasted Talent]

Like if I would even bother to read the words of a biased British 'journalist'! :rotflmao:

Of course Romanian journo's all internationally recognised for their knowledge...........

WT

[Giuseppe F1]

I love how amongst all the thank yous given by senior Brawn figures on thw BBC coverage to the employees, those who were unfortunately laid off in the Winter, even the due thanks given to BAT and Honda.........not a word of thanks or mention for Virgin...... Classic! :) . Enjoy life at the back of the grid, Richard :)

[Robinho]

There's an excellent analysis from Mark Hughes here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8312844.stm

It'll make pretty unpleasant reading for Jenson's detractors, but hey... ;)


interesting little read there

[henners88]

Like if I would even bother to read the words of a biased British 'journalist'! :rotflmao:
Much the same as many of us take little notice of the words of a biased Romanian armchair pundit :laugh:

FIN

[ioan]

Your loss. FWIW Hughes doesn't stick his tounge up Jenson's backside - far from it - but gives equal consideration to his weaknesses and flaws. It's a good read, but I can only lead a horse to water, I can't make it think.

Make it drink would be a good start if you are already there with it.

[F1boat]

interesting little read there

Truly a great article.

[ioan]

Much the same as many of us take little notice of the words of a biased Romanian armchair pundit :laugh:

FIN

So we got to the name calling part already?!
For your sake I hope you are not having a nervous breakdown just because some people do not idolize Button. :D

[Robinho]

Like if I would even bother to read the words of a biased British 'journalist'! :rotflmao:

like we willl worry about the opinions of a biased Ferrari fanboy and Brit hater

:rotflmao:

[Robinho]

So we got to the name calling part already?!
For your sake I hope you are not having a nervous breakdown just because some people do not idolize Button. :D

you are Romanian are you not? you comment on the sport, much like a pundit, do you not? you watch races from your home on the telly, rather than being part of a team or the sport? hardly name calling.

remember, if its true its not an insult - you said this!

[BDunnell]

What a bunch of saddo's there are on this forum - just because their favourite driver hasn't won this year! I'm surprised at how little supposed enthusiasts who come on here actually understand about motor racing.....

I couldn't agree more. Yet again, we see that there are certain individuals here who simply cannot be classed as true motorsport enthusiasts and whose views should not be taken seriously. Having differing opinions is one thing, but being a complete prat is another.

[harsha]

remember, if its true its not an insult - you said this!

:roflmao:

[ioan]

like we willl worry about the opinions of a biased Ferrari fanboy and Brit hater

:rotflmao:

Good to see you resorting to personal attacks without any reason, it just proves my point, Button is a weak champion no matter what you guys are trying to hype him! :D

[henners88]

So we got to the name calling part already?!
For your sake I hope you are not having a nervous breakdown just because some people do not idolize Button. :D
There was no name calling in my post I stated your nationality and mentioned you were biased... :confused:

I don't idolise Button either and you know that very well.. I was just very surprised to hear from a non-nationalist that you chose not to read an article because the writer is British. Surely if you back drivers purely on talent and not nationality, then why would you take a different stance when dealing with a well descripted artcle?

I just sense a serious dose of sour grapes... We see it from you every year :)

[slinkster]

:) Thrilled for Jenson and Brawn. Well done lads! :)

[BDunnell]

There was no name calling in my post I stated your nationality and mentioned you were biased... :confused:

I don't idolise Button either and you know that very well.. I was just very surprised to hear from a non-nationalist that you chose not to read an article because the writer is British. Surely if you back drivers purely on talent and not nationality, then why would you take a different stance when dealing with a well descripted artcle?

I just sense a serious dose of sour grapes... We see it from you every year :)

Never mind every year, we see it from him in every post.

[ioan]

you are Romanian are you not? you comment on the sport, much like a pundit, do you not? you watch races from your home on the telly, rather than being part of a team or the sport? hardly name calling.

remember, if its true its not an insult - you said this!

I was referring to the 'armchair pundit' part. :p :
However it's good to see you starting to play the chauvinist card, it's a pleasure to watch you shoot yourself in the foot. :D

[BDunnell]

I was referring to the 'armchair pundit' part. :p :
However it's good to see you starting to play the chauvinist card, it's a pleasure to watch you shoot yourself in the foot. :D

Chauvinist? Wrong word, I think.

[ioan]

There was no name calling in my post I stated your nationality and mentioned you were biased... :confused:

And something more, but obviously you already forgot what you wrote, I'm not surprised. :p :

[ioan]

BTW you Button fans really enjoy ganging up and collectively shoot yourself in the foot while trying to look smart! :D

I'll leave you savor the crowning of the weakest WDC of F1's history now. :p

[Robinho]

I was referring to the 'armchair pundit' part. :p :
However it's good to see you starting to play the chauvinist card, it's a pleasure to watch you shoot yourself in the foot. :D

i referred to both the Romanian, and the armchair pundit parts, so it is you has shot yourself in the foot, again, by not reading nor understanding the posts before reacting to them.

i still maintain that you are both Romanian, and and Armchair pundit, in the same way i am English, and an armchair pundit - good arguement though :rolleyes:

[henners88]

And something more, but obviously you already forgot what you wrote, I'm not surprised. :p :
Hmmm let me analyse.....

Much the same as many of us take little notice of the words of a biased Romanian armchair pundit :laugh:
FIN
Biased - You are
Romanian - You are
Armchair - Probability suggests you either sit on one or a sofa to watch the
race.
Pundit - You are like the rest of us.

The funny thing is you actually found an insult in this post..Unless you look like an armchair then I am deeply sorry mon amis... :p

[Koz]

biggest budget = most points. Now hopefully things will have changed for good - less predictible results all season long.

Well obviously Honda's huge budget had nothing to do with how Brawn is this year, since he financed everything from his pocket, right?


For someone of his immense gift, he is generally overly sensitive to a car's characteristics. He needs the car to be exactly right to have access to his full talent.

If the car is anything other than that, if it suffers from any measure of instability at the rear under braking or into the corner, then he is not good at improvising a different style.

Yeah, immense gift but if the car ain't there, he ain't either.
This is what separates the men from the boys, as the article clearly also says, he is a person who cannot adapt.
Is that a champion? Look at Hamilton, look at Alonso, even Massa and Kimi. They pulled something out when their cars were far inferior to the Brawn. If you can't cope with the drive and adapt to suit the car, he does not deserve to be champion.

You just have to look an see, patriotism only gets you so far. He is a champion now, so be it. But it does not mean he is anywhere close to the like of Senna or Häkkinen or Shumacher or the last three champions - he is simply not in that category.
Excuses are always nice, but we know the realities, right?

I had more respect for him in the first 7 races, after that he proved what caliber of a driver he was.

[Robinho]

I was referring to the 'armchair pundit' part. :p :
However it's good to see you starting to play the chauvinist card, it's a pleasure to watch you shoot yourself in the foot. :D

i think "chauvinist" is by far the worst insult being hurled about here - perhaps you should learn to read all the post and digest it rather than reacting to the first few words

[ioan]

i referred to both the Romanian, and the armchair pundit parts, so it is you has shot yourself in the foot, again, by not reading nor understanding the posts before reacting to them.

You're right I stopped reading your post when you started to sing the chauvinistic aria.
As for understanding, I do understand it very well, it is just not easy to have your cardboard champion contested and have nothing serious to back him up, so you start the aggressive answers when I didn't address you personally.

Hope the champagne isn't too bitter. :D

[ioan]

i think "chauvinist" is by far the worst insult being hurled about here - perhaps you should learn to read all the post and digest it rather than reacting to the first few words

Chauvinist isn't an insult, it's an adjective given, on a fair basis, to those playing the nationalistic card.

[Wasted Talent]

Well obviously Honda's huge budget had nothing to do with how Brawn is this year, since he financed everything from his pocket, right?




Don't think I ever said anything like "paying from his own pocket"

McLaren/Ferrari/Red Bull all employ far more people and have much bigger budgets........

WT

[SGWilko]

For those among you that think JB is a weak champion, I would like to point out that he won his first championship fair and square, without crashing into anyone and taking them out...

[BDunnell]

Yeah, immense gift but if the car ain't there, he ain't either.
This is what separates the men from the boys, as the article clearly also says, he is a person who cannot adapt.
Is that a champion?

Yes, clearly, because he has won the championship. Had he won the last six races I suspect many people would be thinking differently.

This notion of 'unworthy champions' defeats me. The only sense in which I think it can be applied is if illegalities of whatever kind are subsequently discovered.

[ioan]

For those among you that think JB is a weak champion, I would like to point out that he won his first championship fair and square, without crashing into anyone and taking them out...

That's probably because he wasn't fast enough to crash into anyone. Heck he even had troubles to overtake a guy in his first ever F1 race.

Though I have to agree that his moaning over the radio was priceless, worthy of a cardboard champ. :p :

[ioan]

Don't think I ever said anything like "paying from his own pocket"

McLaren/Ferrari/Red Bull all employ far more people and have much bigger budgets........

WT

That's rubbish. This year's Honda, oups I meant BrawnGP, F1 car did cost almost the double of any of their competitors.
Plus Honda did finance their 2009 season.

[SGWilko]

That's probably because he wasn't fast enough to crash into anyone. Heck he even had troubles to overtake a guy in his first ever F1 race.

Though I have to agree that his moaning over the radio was priceless, worthy of a cardboard champ. :p :

The important thing to note here is that he WAS fast enough to win the WDC. Why risk what happened to Nakajima? JB called it, Kobayashi did it - to his own countryman.

[Robinho]

You're right I stopped reading your post when you started to sing the chauvinistic aria.
As for understanding, I do understand it very well, it is just not easy to have your cardboard champion contested and have nothing serious to back him up, so you start the aggressive answers when I didn't address you personally.

Hope the champagne isn't too bitter. :D

i'm not botehred by your opinion on JB, its clear you don't like him. i do.

as for nothing serious to back it up? he just won the World Title - whther you choose to recognise that or not, its done. most wins, most points. sure he made hard work of it, perhaps he struggled to cope with the pressure, but he managed it well enough to win the title - what more back up do you need?

so stop trolling round here, seeing as your not a fan ;)

[ioan]

as for nothing serious to back it up? he just won the World Title - whther you choose to recognise that or not, its done.

I didn't say he's not a champion, just that he's a weak, fabricated cardboard one, that's all.

[Robinho]

Chauvinist isn't an insult, it's an adjective given, on a fair basis, to those playing the nationalistic card.

its very insulting, especially when not true. i take it your were implying racism on my part? care to back up that claim?

being an open forum i can reply to your posts, so it makes no difference that the initial discussion was not mine.

i was not being nationalistic, i believe "Romanian" is an adjective, given to describe those as being born or naturalised in Romania.

[BDunnell]

Sorry to be so direct, but I can think of no other way of saying it — am I alone in desperately wanting one member here to just shut up?

[Saint Devote]

This win for Jens has as expected brought out spitting and vitriolic all the haters! :D

Well sucks to be you!

Jenson is the world champion, he won it by winning the most races this year and he clinched it by doing what was required.

You are all privileged to air your views here but the overriding commonality is that y'all are disappointed that Jenson won - and really, that is the only reality. Happily :D

[Robinho]

I didn't say he's not a champion, just that he's a weak, fabricated cardboard one, that's all.


you sound just like Flavio, you and he must be the last bastions of common sense!

i get you think he's weak - your welcome to it, i disagree, but fabricated? Cardboard? what exactly are you getting at or are you just throwing out random insults.

[ioan]

its very insulting, especially when not true. i take it your were implying racism on my part? care to back up that claim?

What is there to back up? Yours and henner's posts are there to be seen, there's no need to back up anything.


being an open forum i can reply to your posts, so it makes no difference that the initial discussion was not mine.

Than you agree that you will have to support the consequences of your posts too.

[Dave B]

Sorry to be so direct, but I can think of no other way of saying it — am I alone in desperately wanting one member here to just shut up?
Hypothetically speaking, if there were for example one member who exemplified the phrase "throwing their toys out of the pram" and conducted themselves in such a bitter, pathetic, hypocritical, insulting and childish way; then yes: I'd agree with you.

[donKey jote]

Truly a great article.
except what he says about Alonso... implying he had the same "chosen one" career guidance as Hamilton :laugh:


Anyway well done (Ross) Brawn, Mercedes and Jenson :up:

[henners88]

What is there to back up? Yours and henner's posts are there to be seen, there's no need to back up anything.
Than you agree that you will have to support the consequences of your posts too.
If you really were insulted by my post, please report it and describe to the moderators what offended you. I had no intention of insulting you, merely using the same terminology you used to describe a British journalist. Calling someone an "armchair pundit" is not an insult where I am from, and mentioning that someone is from a country is certainly not offensive.

I suggest we move on, because this is beyond ridiculous IMO.. :)

[Robinho]

What is there to back up? Yours and henner's posts are there to be seen, there's no need to back up anything.



Than you agree that you will have to support the consequences of your posts too.

but you are Romanian?! ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN ROMANIAN.

its not Racist, Chauvinist or nationalistic - its a fact.

if i were using it as part of a put down or something derogotary that i was implying Romanian made more derogatory then you'd be spot on the money.

neither Armchair pundit or Romanian are insulting, when put together its still not insulting, albeit i would agree if you said the Romanian part was irrelevant to the armchair pundit part.

accusing people of being Chauvinist, racist or nationalistic is highly insulting to me. Call me English, call me a Button fan, call me another English Button fan, all fine. call me a racist and we go from banter to having a large problem

[ioan]

you sound just like Flavio, you and he must be the last bastions of common sense!

You just can't stop insulting me. Fine, I'll quit this useless conversation as you are obviously not capable of reasoning right now.


i get you think he's weak - your welcome to it, i disagree, but fabricated? Cardboard? what exactly are you getting at or are you just throwing out random insults.

I have the right to my opinion, he's weak, incapable of working in an environment that is anything less than perfect for him, thus I call him a cardboard personage or do you believe that Cardboard is strong and I should call him toilet paper champion?
Also he's a champion just because the FIA decided to allow an illegal diffuser to be used in order to try to create a rift between the teams who formed the FOTA that was at that time opposing the FIA. Since the other teams got their DD difusers working Button didn't win any race.

I believe that I'm right in my assumptions.

[Saint Devote]

Like if I would even bother to read the words of a biased British 'journalist'! :rotflmao:

Actually Mark Hughes is not at all biased towards Jenson. I have been a reader of Autosport for 35 years and know his work well.

He does tend to bubble over Hamilton and this I citicize him for especially his 2009 Italian Grand Prix report was just irksome - a Hamilton puff piece when the British driver actually messed up badly. So disappointing to see Autosport reach a low like that. Not at all the class of Lyons or Hutchinson.

But aside from that criticsm, his writing is generally fair.

[ioan]

albeit i would agree if you said the Romanian part was irrelevant to the armchair pundit part.

I see that we are slowly getting to the matter of the problem now.
It's use by henners88 was gratuitous and with a negative intent and born out of his need to throw some mud.

I admit you are not chauvinist and I shouldn't have used the term, but I don't find it funny that just because I chose to have a flag under my name some kid on a message board should use it against me. It's downright childish.

[Dave B]

Also he's a champion just because the FIA decided to allow an illegal diffuser to be used....
Is that all you've got? Firstly if they allowed it then by definition it wasn't illegal; and secondly how come Barrichello or any of the other 4 original DDD users aren't champion if that's seriously the only factor?

Sure the DDD was a factor, and it's to Brawn's credit, but do you honestly believe what you wrote: that Jenson's the champion "just" becuase of it?

[ioan]

Actually Mark Hughes is not at all biased towards Jenson. I have been a reader of Autosport for 35 years and know his work well.

He does tend to bubble over Hamilton and this I citicize him for especially his 2009 Italian Grand Prix report was just irksome - a Hamilton puff piece when the British driver actually messed up badly. So disappointing to see Autosport reach a low like that. Not at all the class of Lyons or Hutchinson.

But aside from that criticsm, his writing is generally fair.

I might give it a try one day, given how you all support his articles.

[DexDexter]

You just can't stop insulting me. Fine, I'll quit this useless conversation as you are obviously not capable of reasoning right now.



I have the right to my opinion, he's weak, incapable of working in an environment that is anything less than perfect for him, thus I call him a cardboard personage or do you believe that Cardboard is strong and I should call him toilet paper champion?
Also he's a champion just because the FIA decided to allow an illegal diffuser to be used in order to try to create a rift between the teams who formed the FOTA that was at that time opposing the FIA. Since the other teams got their DD difusers working Button didn't win any race.

I believe that I'm right in my assumptions.

I know it was a boring race but don't take it on the Britts :)

[Saint Devote]

Hooboy!!! Dear old Pino is going to be really upset with this lot!!

Jenson's world title win today has really upset by the anti-Button crowd in a way even beyond MY expectations!!! LOL!!!!

[ioan]

Is that all you've got?

More than enough. He didn't manage to win any race after the others upgraded to DDD's and sorted out their cars. He obviously needs a vastly superior machine to win, otherwise he's pants.

[VkmSpouge]

Don't see why anyone would think Button is a particularly weak champion. He sealed the championship with a race to spare and won more races than anyone else. I think that's a mark of a strong champion and certainly he deserved to win it more than any other driver this year.

[Robinho]

You just can't stop insulting me. Fine, I'll quit this useless conversation as you are obviously not capable of reasoning right now.



I have the right to my opinion, he's weak, incapable of working in an environment that is anything less than perfect for him, thus I call him a cardboard personage or do you believe that Cardboard is strong and I should call him toilet paper champion?
Also he's a champion just because the FIA decided to allow an illegal diffuser to be used in order to try to create a rift between the teams who formed the FOTA that was at that time opposing the FIA. Since the other teams got their DD difusers working Button didn't win any race.

I believe that I'm right in my assumptions.

no insults - you called Jenson, Weak, cardboard and fabricated. Flavio called him a concrete post. i correctly stated that your statements sounded similar.

if he's so incapable of working in an imperfect environment then how did he stil win? he might have struggled - i admit that, but he came through in spite of that.

Since the other teams got their DD's working Button didn't need to win any races - is that his fault?

[Ian McC]

Well done to Brawn, really has been quite a year, congrats to them and Jenson for their marvelous wins :up:

[ioan]

I know it was a boring race but don't take it on the Britts :)

I have nothing with the Brits, not even with Button, after all he got most points.
I just believe that he is a weak champion. ;)

That some of his fans decided to get hot under the collar and started posting some rather questionable posts, that's their actions not mine, I just find it funny that they take offense for something they are not responsible of, i.e. Button being a weakling.

[Robinho]

I see that we are slowly getting to the matter of the problem now.
It's use by henners88 was gratuitous and with a negative intent and born out of his need to throw some mud.

I admit you are not chauvinist and I shouldn't have used the term, but I don't find it funny that just because I chose to have a flag under my name some kid on a message board should use it against me. It's downright childish.

i appreciate your retraction, for what its worth i don't think Henenrs, nor myself were using it against you or with negative intent (i don't know if he's a kid either) it may have been irrelevant tothe point, but not intended with any negative intent

[ioan]

if he's so incapable of working in an imperfect environment then how did he stil win? he might have struggled - i admit that, but he came through in spite of that.

because he had an advantage for half of the season, and in the other half the others took point off each other while Button was busy whining about how bad the car was and how mean the rookies were to him because they dared to race him on the track.

[ioan]

i appreciate your retraction, for what its worth i don't think Henenrs, nor myself were using it against you or with negative intent (i don't know if he's a kid either) it may have been irrelevant tothe point, but not intended with any negative intent

That's fair.

[Robinho]

I have nothing with the Brits, not even with Button, after all he got most points.
I just believe that he is a weak champion. ;)

That some of his fans decided to get hot under the collar and started posting some rather questionable posts, that's their actions not mine, I just find it funny that they take offense for something they are not responsible of, i.e. Button being a weakling.

i'll continue to assert that Button winning despite the problems he struggled with is a sign of strength, and having now wrapped up the title he'll arguably be able to cope with the pressure better.

[Dave B]

Button won the championship, fairly and squarely, without any aggressive tactics and in a team which allowed a fair and equal fight between its drivers.

Deal with it, don't deal with it, I couldn't care less. The results speak for themselves.

[Saint Devote]

This article sums Button up perfectly as it doesn't claim he is the best, but gives a reasonable analysis of how he has got to where he is today.. :)

Being the best?? Different interpretations and always debated. The generic "one of the best" always settles the issue without agreement until it boils over again and again.

But this year Jenson is offically the best, because he managed the job the best and won the world championship.

What point is there in being claimed "best" but not winning the world title? None.

And each year the title is won by a driver and he will always officially be the best. There is no other measure and thats the way it works.

[Koz]

Sure the DDD was a factor, and it's to Brawn's credit, but do you honestly believe what you wrote: that Jenson's the champion "just" becuase of it?

It's very true.

DDDs are the only reason JB has come so far. You confirm this by looking at the statistics - as soon as teams equalised, where was Button?
Or did he just magically lose all his driving skills?

The only reason you see now, that he is ahead of rubens was gear box failure. Otherwise they would have been neck and neck.
If Kimi, Lewis, Alonso, Massa, Kubica etc etc were in that car, they would not have simply dropped off the map like Button.
I can't remember anyone demonstrating such dominance and then just disappearing. It simply is unbelievable that a driver of such proposed caliber can just switch off and from easily winning go to struggling for the final points spot.
How anyone can deny that is beyond me.

Button is not a great driver or a good drive, he is a decent driver. That's it. Like so many before him and so many after - there are far better driver on the grid today. He was destined to be a mid pack runner and he has proved it.

[Saint Devote]

Button won the championship, fairly and squarely, without any aggressive tactics and in a team which allowed a fair and equal fight between its drivers.

Deal with it, don't deal with it, I couldn't care less. The results speak for themselves.

Jolly well said!!!

[DexDexter]

I don't think Button is particularly convincing champion, sort of like Damon Hill but still he won it and that's what counts. Great job by him!

[Saint Devote]

It's very true.

DDDs are the only reason JB has come so far. You confirm this by looking at the statistics - as soon as teams equalised, where was Button?
Or did he just magically lose all his driving skills?

The only reason you see now, that he is ahead of rubens was gear box failure. Otherwise they would have been neck and neck.
If Kimi, Lewis, Alonso, Massa, Kubica etc etc were in that car, they would not have simply dropped off the map like Button.
I can't remember anyone demonstrating such dominance and then just disappearing. It simply is unbelievable that a driver of such proposed caliber can just switch off and from easily winning go to struggling for the final points spot.
How anyone can deny that is beyond me.

Button is not a great driver or a good drive, he is a decent driver. That's it. Like so many before him and so many after - there are far better driver on the grid today. He was destined to be a mid pack runner and he has proved it.

How long have you been a racing supporter? Perhaps length of time lends perspective.

I have 35 seasons behind now and would recommend you reading the Mark Hughes column. It is a very good piece of writing.

Your assessment of Jenson is totally incorrect - and to call Jenson a "mid-pack runner" is laughable - and the comments of people such as the CEO of Bridgestone Racing, former f1 champions and Ross Brawn as well as others do not agree with your assessment.

I realize today is a very emotive one - the day a new champion is crowned always is.

But sadly I have never seen so many negative comments about a new champion driver and undeservedly so. Hughes alludes to what is effectively cognitive dissonance on the part of the Jenson haters.

They just cannot begin to recognize what has happened today. Until it happened it was not reality - Barrichello and Vettel were possibilities and this was clung to.

Now y'all have to accept that the fight for the title is over and Jenson Button is the new world champion. Accept it.

You see he will have number ONE on his car next year :D :D :D

[Saint Devote]

I don't think Button is particularly convincing champion, sort of like Damon Hill but still he won it and that's what counts. Great job by him!

Oh I see - ONLY like Damon?!! :eek:

[truefan72]

Yep. Weakest champion that I witnessed in F1 in 20 years of watching.

ioan we rarely agree, but in this case I am with you. He effectively won the WCC in the first 8 races of the year and when his car had a somewhat dubious advantage over the others. Once the other teams caught up and he was asked to match his skills vs hamilton , vettel, rubens, webber, raikkonen, all of whom, save one, drove cars less polished and balanced than brawn, and he produced nothing.

I cannot give him his due as a worthy champion. I will congratulate him for winning it, but will note quite clearly in my mind what kid of championship he won.

[Wasted Talent]

How long have you been a racing supporter? Perhaps length of time lends perspective.

I have 35 seasons behind now and would recommend you reading the Mark Hughes column. It is a very good piece of writing.

Your assessment of Jenson is totally incorrect - and to call Jenson a "mid-pack runner" is laughable - and the comments of people such as the CEO of Bridgestone Racing, former f1 champions and Ross Brawn as well as others do not agree with your assessment.

I realize today is a very emotive one - the day a new champion is crowned always is.

But sadly I have never seen so many negative comments about a new champion driver and undeservedly so. Hughes alludes to what is effectively cognitive dissonance on the part of the Jenson haters.

They just cannot begin to recognize what has happened today. Until it happened it was not reality - Barrichello and Vettel were possibilities and this was clung to.

Now y'all have to accept that the fight for the title is over and Jenson Button is the new world champion. Accept it.

You see he will have number ONE on his car next year :D :D :D

Absolutely correct!

WT

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I'm really happy for Button and Brawn. It's really satisfying to look at all the Button haters throwing their toys out of the pram, proving that they are small men and bad losers.

An incredible season from Button in which he blitzed the field, including his team-mate, in 6 of the first 7 races. Then when the other team sorted there cars out he played the percentages. Consistently in the points, and did all he needed to do.

Button has probably made more overtaking moves on any other driver this year hasn't he?

[DexDexter]

Oh I see - ONLY like Damon?!! :eek:

Yep, more convincing than Mansell who had about a dozen gismos more than his rivals. Bit like Damon, Yes. Good driver, but not a great one. My opinion is based on the facts that Button had a massive car advantage at the start and when things got more equal, he's had one podium in the last nine races.

[ioan]

I don't think Button is particularly convincing champion, sort of like Damon Hill but still he won it and that's what counts. Great job by him!

I disagree, Damon Hill was IMO a much worthier champ than Button.
Hill didn't just disappear when the car wasn't the best by a margin, Button did.

[ioan]

Yep, more convincing than Mansell who had about a dozen gismos more than his rivals. Bit like Damon, Yes. Good driver, but not a great one. My opinion is based on the facts that Button had a massive car advantage at the start and when things got more equal, he's had one podium in the last nine races.

Well put.

[truefan72]

he did get past him-eventually. and kobayashi was doing some great defensive driving.

Jenson should've got past the guy faster, but at least he did in the end. these things take time, this is F1

thats not the point, it is ther fact that he complained to his team asking them to call up chalrie to do s/thing that really got under my skin. Even the speed guys were like, "Jenson get on with it, its called racing!"

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Oh I see - ONLY like Damon?!! :eek:

Only Damon? The same Damon that should nearly won in an Arrows.

Most of the WDC in recent times have had the best car

1996 - Hill - Williams (best car)
1997 - Villeneuve - Williams (best car)
1998 - Hakkinenn - McLaren (best car)
1999 - Hakkinenn - McLaren (best car)
2000 - Schumacher - Ferrari (pretty even with McLaren)
2001- Schumacher - Ferrari (best car)
2002- Schumacher - Ferrari (best car)
2003- Schumacher - Ferrari (best car, apart from mid-season tyre advantage for Michelin teams)
2004- Schumacher - Ferrari (best car)
2005 - Alonso - Renault (best car - slower than McLaren but more reliable)
2006 - Alonso - Renault (best car)
2007 - Raikkonnen - Ferrari (too close to call)
2008 - Hamilton - McLaren (close to call but I say Ferrari had a stronger car)
2009 - Button - Brawn (best car for most of the season)

[Dave B]

thats not the point, it is ther fact that he complained to his team asking them to call up chalrie to do s/thing that really got under my skin. Even the speed guys were like, "Jenson get on with it, its called racing!"

Racing's one thing, weaving around illegally is quite another. Vettel went for it becuase he had nothing to lose, Button had to be more circumspect. He observed a fellow driver acting against the rules and drew it to the attention of the race director. I suspect that Kobayashi then was ordered to let him pass rather than incur a penalty.

Some would say that was smart tactics on Jenson and Brawn's part: to use the rules to their full advantage. A bit like getting the crane to lift you back on track ;) Others would throw their toys out of the pram. Either way, Jenson eventually got past.

[Mysterious Rock]

I dont understand how you claim he is a weak champion?
He won the championship without the season being over, which means he has done a great job to get enough points to do this, If I am correct Jenson has finished in the points in every race this year bar spa, He has won the most races.
If the championship was decided races ago we would all be screaming that its been a boring year, which he didnt and it hasnt been a boring year.
The racing has probably never been closer, when was the last season when the entire field was covered by 7 tenths, and Im sure every team has scored points this year.

Had Rubens won would he be a weak champion too as they both had the same car???

[ShiftingGears]

Well done to Jenson and Brawn :up:

[ioan]

Racing's one thing, weaving around illegally is quite another.

You're making up things to support an impossible stance. One defensive move is allowed. There is nothing illegal about it.

[truefan72]

I was referring to the 'armchair pundit' part. :p :
However it's good to see you starting to play the chauvinist card, it's a pleasure to watch you shoot yourself in the foot. :D

...and that quickly ioan descends into the abyss.
funny how you always seem to be at the center of conflict
just try toning down the rhetoric for once and make your points without all the name calling, mockery insults and then crying foul when receiving the same treatment or your hypocrisy being called out.

I don't think Button is a memorable WDC champ either but I can state my points without lashing out at anyone

[ioan]

I dont understand how you claim he is a weak champion?
He won the championship without the season being over, which means he has done a great job to get enough points to do this

Depends on one's point of view.
He didn't win any of the last 9 races, pretty much since the others catched up with them on the DD difuser front he was not up to WDC level, odd isn't it?!

[ioan]

...and that quickly ioan descends into the abyss.
funny how you always seem to be at the center of conflict
just try toning down the rhetoric for once and make your points without all the name calling, mockery insults and then crying foul when receiving the same treatment or your hypocrisy being called out.

I don't think Button is a memorable WDC champ either but I can state my points without lashing out at anyone

So if I say Button is a weak champion than it's OK for other forum members to start throwing insults instead of trying to come up with something that support their POV? Good to see you running along with the herd to make up the numbers.

[Dzeidzei]

He observed a fellow driver acting against the rules and drew it to the attention of the race director.

It sounded more like a girl crying :)

But who cares, he´s the champ and rightfully so. Congrats to him and his fans.

[ioan]

Congrats to him and his fans.

What did the fans do to deserve congrats? I'm just wondering and it's a serious question so I expect a serious answer.

PS: BTW I agree he sounded like one of those kids who run to mommy to complain about their playing mates.

[Mysterious Rock]

Depends on one's point of view.
He didn't win any of the last 9 races, pretty much since the others catched up with them on the DD difuser front he was not up to WDC level, odd isn't it?!

yes but its a 17 race season, that means that for 8 races he pretty much was dominant, again it would have been boring had it been over by Silverstone

[harsha]

What did the fans do to deserve congrats? I'm just wondering and it's a serious question so I expect a serious answer.

they've supported him throughout his career...and I'm pretty sure they must be feeling vindicated in that their guy has won the championship

[AndyL]

For those among you that think JB is a weak champion, I would like to point out that he won his first championship fair and square, without crashing into anyone and taking them out...

A good observation I think. This has to have been one of the most civilised and sportsmanlike championship fights in recent years.

[truefan72]

So if I say Button is a weak champion than it's OK for other forum members to start throwing insults instead of trying to come up with something that support their POV? Good to see you running along with the herd to make up the numbers.

no you can say button is a weak champ, I'll do you one better. I think he is a weak chapm who won only when his car had a significant advantage to all the others and even then was assisted with a team order or tactics to keep him ahead of rubens in one or two occasions...

thsats my opinion and I am entitled to it just like you are. But when you stat being angry towards others, calling them names, using nationalistic comments when you previously claimed to not have a nationalistic bone in your body and then feigned outrage at being challenged to your points; that's where we walk separate paths.

This me vs. world, us vs. them, war like mentality fdoes you no favors and ends up occupying 3 dozen posts of useless diatribe that I have to weed through instead of discussing the thread subject.

[BDunnell]

...and that quickly ioan descends into the abyss.
funny how you always seem to be at the center of conflict
just try toning down the rhetoric for once and make your points without all the name calling, mockery insults and then crying foul when receiving the same treatment or your hypocrisy being called out.

I don't think Button is a memorable WDC champ either but I can state my points without lashing out at anyone

Excellent post, if I may say so. As is the one above.

Moderators, can we please have some action?

[truefan72]

Since the other teams got their DD's working Button didn't need to win any races - is that his fault?
that certainly is one way of looking at it. and I am sure that is how his PR person would describe it. But the truth is that Jenson did not perform at all in the 2nd half of the year and literally coasted to the championship in the most disappointing way.

As I said he got his WDc good for him.But I cannot view him being anywhere in the same league as kimi, Alonso, Hamilton, schumi, hakkinen, Hill's or even Villenneuve's championships of recent years.

[Dzeidzei]

What did the fans do to deserve congrats? I'm just wondering and it's a serious question so I expect a serious answer.


First of all youre in no position to expect anything. 9 times out of ten you just stab and run.

And if youre really asking that seriously, youve lost me. Id congratulate you if Felipe ever won anything. Must be some secret Romanian logic there I dont get.

I dont rate Jenson as one of the great drivers out there, but he´s the champ now and I do congratulate his fans too. I bet many of those thought Jenson´s chances were gone when Honda pulled out.

[foxystoat]

Well done Jenson & Brawn he is a worthy champion as when he had the best car he used it fully to his advantage unlike Rubens.Also his 6 wins to Vettels 3 & Rubens 2 tell the story.If he had a weak start to the season & won the last 6 races everyone would be all over him saying how brilliant he is. As it stands there are 17 races & it makes no difference when you gather enough points to win the title just as long as you do so. Also brilliant overtaking manouvres today to haul himself into a decent position a top job & well done.

[truefan72]

Racing's one thing, weaving around illegally is quite another. Vettel went for it becuase he had nothing to lose, Button had to be more circumspect. He observed a fellow driver acting against the rules and drew it to the attention of the race director. I suspect that Kobayashi then was ordered to let him pass rather than incur a penalty.
Come on Dave, it was a weak act by Jenson to complain,. rather pathetic IMO. When you watch the race again. like I did, Kobayashi did absolutely nothing. It was a sad cry from a desperate driver. And it wasn't the first time he complained about not being able to get bye guys either.


Some would say that was smart tactics on Jenson and Brawn's part: to use the rules to their full advantage. A bit like getting the crane to lift you back on track ;) Others would throw their toys out of the pram. Either way, Jenson eventually got past.
and that is what he should have done all along instead of crying about it. His antics are just really annoying.
Anyhow, we'll see how next year turns out, unless Brawn have another gray area to exploit.

[truefan72]

Excellent post, if I may say so. As is the one above.

Moderators, can we please have some action?

cheers mate! :up:

[ioan]

they've supported him throughout his career...

You mean they cheered him during his career, or did you help him directly in any way. Just curious.

[Daniel]

I don't usually agree with you truefan but I do now. Jenson had a fantastic start to the season but the 2nd half was just weak. I couldn't believe the whining at Kobayashi, just silly.

[ioan]

And if youre really asking that seriously, youve lost me. Id congratulate you if Felipe ever won anything. Must be some secret Romanian logic there I dont get.

I don't feel I deserve to be congratulated for something I didn't really contributed to. That's why I asked the question, seriously.

[gloomyDAY]

I'm sad that Red Bull and Vettel couldn't pull it off this season.
There is always next year and Sebby, along Webber, should blossom.

Nevertheless, congratulations to Button.

[ioan]

But when you stat being angry towards others, calling them names, using nationalistic comments when you previously claimed to not have a nationalistic bone in your body and then feigned outrage at being challenged to your points; that's where we walk separate paths.

I didn't start calling them anything. Henners88 started the calling game, and I will not take the blame for his actions. I did answer his post, true, but I didn't start any kind of angry anything.

[truefan72]

Well done Jenson & Brawn he is a worthy champion as when he had the best car he used it fully to his advantage unlike Rubens.Also his 6 wins to Vettels 3 & Rubens 2 tell the story.If he had a weak start to the season & won the last 6 races everyone would be all over him saying how brilliant he is. As it stands there are 17 races & it makes no difference when you gather enough points to win the title just as long as you do so. Also brilliant overtaking manouvres today to haul himself into a decent position a top job & well done.

shhot.
iwould feel the same way if he did nothing for the first 8 races, and then Barwn GP showed up with a DDD that gave their cars a significant advantage over others, which seemed to be semi-illegal and a complete explotiation of the rules. Given that 2 other teams wanted to use it and the FIa said no, then Jenson went on to win 6 of the last 8 races.

I would say he did nothing until his team found him some sort of dubious advantage that made his cars 10x better than competition.

I would not be saying brilliant driver, I would be saying lucky driver who only won because his car was that much better. a driver who when faced with similar competitive cars really showed nothing special.

congrats to him and Brawn GP. may 2010 be a better competitive year.
At least we can go into Yas Marina and have the track take center stage :)

[ioan]

shhot.
iwould feel the same way if he did nothing for the first 8 races, and then Barwn GP showed up with a DDD that gave their cars a significant advantage over others, which seemed to be semi-illegal and a complete explotiation of the rules. Given that 2 other teams wanted to use it and the FIa said no, then Jenson went on to win 6 of the last 8 races.

I would say he did nothing until his team found him some sort of dubious advantage that made his cars 10x better than competition.

I would not be saying brilliant driver, I would be saying lucky driver who only won because his car was that much better. a driver who when faced with similar competitive cars really showed nothing special.

Well stated.
It's understandable for a driver to have an off every now and then or a dip in his performance every x races, but to be good only when the car is best by a mile and as soon as the car isn't top to drop like Button did is a clear indication that his initial good performance wasn't because he's such a great driver.

Look at how Lewis won races in what was a hopeless car this season, that is the true mark of driver talent.

[BDunnell]

I don't usually agree with you truefan but I do now. Jenson had a fantastic start to the season but the 2nd half was just weak. I couldn't believe the whining at Kobayashi, just silly.

Yes, I couldn't really see the point of that. Kobayashi didn't seem to be doing anything out of the ordinary. But while Button's second half of the season was certainly weak, his drive today was one of the more exciting of the year, and I don't subscribe to all the negativity about him. After all, Carlos Reutemann is remembered as having been an excellent F1 driver in spite of letting a championship absolutely slip through his fingers in very meek fashion. I don't think too much criticism can be attached to someone who does end up winning the title.

[truefan72]

I'm sad that Red Bull and Vettel couldn't pull it off this season.
There is always next year and Sebby, along Webber, should blossom.

Nevertheless, congratulations to Button.

RBR had an outstanding year.

Save the DD thing. they would have been right there for both championships. They built an outstanding car.

[Shifter]

Aesthetically, I wanted to see Button prove his worthiness 1 more time before he was crowned champion, and the way he drove today satisfied me. He didn't qualify bad because he was slow, the team muffed the strategy, and he came roaring back to finish 5th. One could argue that he lucked out landing in a seat in Ross' DD car, but looking back JB has had alot of hard luck in the past preventing him from proving himself, getting booted from Williams and landing in slow cars. I say it balances out. Although not a fan, I stand in awe of almost all pro drivers, and I take my hat off to him.

[truefan72]

Yes, I couldn't really see the point of that. Kobayashi didn't seem to be doing anything out of the ordinary. But while Button's second half of the season was certainly weak, his drive today was one of the more exciting of the year, and I don't subscribe to all the negativity about him. After all, Carlos Reutemann is remembered as having been an excellent F1 driver in spite of letting a championship absolutely slip through his fingers in very meek fashion. I don't think too much criticism can be attached to someone who does end up winning the title.

I'll give you that. he did drive very well today. Aggressive, assertive, and with a sense of willful pace. If we see this type of Jenson from now on, a driver who by sheer force of will and effort pushes his car to perform, then i might change my opinion. I think it was his best drive of the season.

[Daniel]

All very true Ben, but what would people say if Rubens had gained 8 points or so and Jenson had taken himself out on one of his banzai overtakes? There's a fine line between a champions drive and end of Hamilton's 2007 season..... We'd all be criticising Jenson if it hadn't worked out.

[BDunnell]

All very true Ben, but what would people say if Rubens had gained 8 points or so and Jenson had taken himself out on one of his banzai overtakes? There's a fine line between a champions drive and end of Hamilton's 2007 season..... We'd all be criticising Jenson if it hadn't worked out.

What if, what if... Equally, what if Button had had an awful first half to the season and then come on strong in the second half? How would that have made him any more deserving a champion than he is as a result of what actually happened?

[BDunnell]

Aesthetically, I wanted to see Button prove his worthiness 1 more time before he was crowned champion, and the way he drove today satisfied me. He didn't qualify bad because he was slow, the team muffed the strategy, and he came roaring back to finish 5th. One could argue that he lucked out landing in a seat in Ross' DD car, but looking back JB has had alot of hard luck in the past preventing him from proving himself, getting booted from Williams and landing in slow cars. I say it balances out. Although not a fan, I stand in awe of almost all pro drivers, and I take my hat off to him.

I agree, especially with the last sentence. I wish more people subscribed to what is now generally held to be an old-fashioned view, it seems. But then you are a true enthusiast.

[truefan72]

Well stated.
It's understandable for a driver to have an off every now and then or a dip in his performance every x races, but to be good only when the car is best by a mile and as soon as the car isn't top to drop like Button did is a clear indication that his initial good performance wasn't because he's such a great driver.

Look at how Lewis won races in what was a hopeless car this season, that is the true mark of driver talent.

yep. Or kimi dragging that Ferrari around, or Kubica doing things with the BMW, or Massa's early performances, or Sutil, Rosberg and Alonso. Those guys all pushed their cars beyond the scope of its capabilities.

I'm not hating on Jenson,. just stating a reality that he is just a decent driver who doesn't maximize the car, or minimize it. I actually thought of him more favorably in 2005, 2006, when I though he really drove the pants off that BAR. I think he might just have woken up off the 2 year slumber he was in in this race and hope to see him perform like he did today in every race.

[Daniel]

Yes but it's not a big leap to have someone move over a couple of metres and take you out. Of course it didn't happen but we could very well have seen another Colin McRae 2001 with a driver pushing harder than they needed to and paying the price.

[truefan72]

I agree, especially with the last sentence. I wish more people subscribed to what is now generally held to be an old-fashioned view, it seems. But then you are a true enthusiast.

agreed

[BDunnell]

Yes but it's not a big leap to have someone move over a couple of metres and take you out. Of course it didn't happen but we could very well have seen another Colin McRae 2001 with a driver pushing harder than they needed to and paying the price.

Same could be said for that second place battle at Dijon in 1979, generally considered to have been one of the best dices in F1 history, if not the best. It could very easily have ended in tears, yet you won't find me bemoaning it for that reason.

[Daniel]

Of course but part of a great driver is knowing when to play it safe.

[BDunnell]

Of course but part of a great driver is knowing when to play it safe.

Which is exactly what Button has often done — play it safe. That's apart from just being uncompetitive on occasions, by the way! Another part is knowing when you need to attack, surely? He did it, and it paid off. That it might not have done is neither here nor there.

[wedge]

Well done Button for being champion of monkeys.

Lets just hope next year the Hand of God deals us with the better drivers in better cars.

[GridGirl]

Congratulations to Button and the Brawn team. It's a big achievement when considering their position at the start of the season.

I'm not a Jenson Button fan but I will say that I have really felt for him in the past. I remember when Honda were doing well and the Honda merchandise stand at the British GP was full of loads of people wanting to buy Jenson Button or Honda stuff and the crowds cheered like crazy when he came out on the track. Then we had the arrival of Lewis Hamilton and Jenson was yesterdays news. I'm not a fan of Jenson but it really annoyed me at the British GP later when fans would queue up at the McLaren stand to buy the Hamilton and McLaren gear take off the Honda stuff and pretended they were never a fan. Jenson was down and out after one race win and people didn't care becuase now we had Lewis and he would win us our next world championship.

Fair play to Jenson, he's got through it, hes come back and he's managed to win himself a world championship. He may not be the best driver in the world but he got the business done when he had the best car and he's done enough damage limitation when he hasn't had the best car. You can't ask more of him than that to be honest.

Jenson, you may be world champion but you definately don't have a career in singing in the future. :p

[N. Jones]

Argh!!! Can't we all go through ONE POST without all of this name calling and back and forth accusation??

This is why my # of posts is so low...I am so tired of good discussions turning into mudslinging that I usually end up passing on joining in.

[Rollo]

If Bunsen wins the WDC, I swear I'll jump into Albert Park Lake fully clothed.

Routes 96 and 112 both have 20 minute services to Albert Park.

I expect to see a full colour spread in The Age tomorrow morning. :D

[savage86]

I think Jenson is a very worthy champion, drives like Monaco and Turkey speak for themselves. All the negativity is very sad yes Jenson had a car advantage early in the season but to suddenly blurt out at the end of the season that his car was illegal is simply pathetic.

I find it quite funny really, all the anger and bitterness on this forum just because the formbook has been shaken up. I don’t think Jenson fulfilled his potential for the second half but even so he was consistent, didn’t make any silly hamaltonesque mistakes. Now the pressure is off his shoulders lets just see what he does next season, then we can really judge how worthy he is to be a world champion.

When we look back at drivers what they do after they have won the championship are tell tail signs to how good they really are. JV proved that point pretty well, im willing to bet Jenson will do better.

[raikk]

congrats guys they definitely deserve it..

[Easy Drifter]

It is called the World Championship.
Not the one race championship.
Over the series Brawn and Button have won both.
If the Demented Midget had his way the drivers title would have been long decided.
I do not think (only my opinion) Jenson is the best driver in F1 today. But he and Brawn are over the F1 season were the best. That is all that counts.
A certain poster on here is making claims that the Brawn was illegal. Well the FIA said not so. To effing bad.
There have been many World Driving Champions who were not the best drivers at the time.
Just to name a few, Mike Hawthorne, Phill Hill, Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneve, Jody Scheckter.
I will be very interested to see how JB goes in the next race when the pressure is off.

[Rollo]

It is called the World Championship.
Not the one race championship.
Over the series Brawn and Button have won both.

It's interesting that you should mention this.

Keke Rosberg as 1982 World Driver's Champion one only a single race that season. Mike Hawthorn as 1958 World Driver's Champion one only a single race that season as well.
Jensen Button has won 6 races thus far. So the fact that certain people may call him a weak champion is really putting the spotlight on their own ignorance.

Perhaps someone might like to accuse Jochen Rindt of being a weak champion because he only won 5 races in 1970?

[Shifter]

To expand on Easy Drifter's post:

F1 Championships are won by the best driver in the best car for the circuits that comprise a season, in accordance to the regulations that govern the race and car. The Brawn was the best car, and according to the points Button was better than Barichello over the course of the season.

What it comes down to is romantically, we like drivers who can achieve great things, raising the performance of the car. It's a fair cop to say that Button never did 'raise' the performance of the car, but he did maximize its potential over the course of the season. When the Brawn was undoubtedly the best car over the first half of the season, Button extracted more potential and consistently finished ahead of Rubins. When the Brawn team had to push further to fend off the Red Bulls, Rubins was able to raise the performance of the car with his veteran knowledge and skill. However, his time ran out, and Button did what he needed to do, scoring enough points per race to seal the deal. I think we have been spoiled by the last two years, where the champions had to come from behind to win, so Button's 'points-racing' doesn't look as cool in comparason.

Again, congratulations Button. Next year the rules will change, with no refuelling. This creates a new set of WDC parameters, I think that the 'gutsy' drivers like Alonso will have the upper hand with next years' heavy-then-light cars, and whoever wins will be uniquely deserving of the 2010 crown.

[aryan]

Sorry to be so direct, but I can think of no other way of saying it — am I alone in desperately wanting one member here to just shut up?

The said member, with whom I've had a cordial relationship in the past, is now in my ignore list. Already, this forum is much more readable after that.

Sorry ioan, can't take it anymore.

[F1boat]

I think Jenson is a very worthy champion, drives like Monaco and Turkey speak for themselves...
I find it quite funny really, all the anger and bitterness on this forum just because the formbook has been shaken up.

Well, I think that Jenson's best drive of the season was in Bahrain, especially when he overtook Lewis Hamilton. In that moment for me he proved that he is worthy. But of course, the Monaco GP is like a WDC by itself, fascinating track, to win there, you should be good IMO.
About the dislike, I have a far-fetched theory about it. I think that it is the "boyband" image. Jenson really looks like a boyband member and I have noted that sports fans are like matchos and for some reason dislike "pretty boys" - I have friends who dislike Fernando Torres for example, and when I ask them why they said something vague, like the fact that he is "annoying". Same about videogame characters, but that's another topic :-)

[Roamy]

today among other days this year button drove like a champion.
He who get the most points gets the title. He is deseerving and won the title without any team member help.

[Dzeidzei]

What did the fans do to deserve congrats? I'm just wondering and it's a serious question so I expect a serious answer.



Just FYI I did answer your serious question, but I gues you had the mods to remove it.

I only stated that fans who have cheered for the guy for years must feel great, so congrats are in order.

I dont even get how you could question that.

PS. I dont get the mods either on this one.

[ArrowsFA1]

He didn't win any of the last 9 races, pretty much since the others catched up with them on the DD difuser front he was not up to WDC level, odd isn't it?!
Not up to WDC level :confused: JB is the 2009 World Champion.

The championship is won over a full season of races. Not one race. Not a number of races. The whole season.

Yes, Brawn had an advantage at the beginning of the year but Button made absolutely the most of that. You say Button hasn't won any of the last 9 races. So what? Barrichello didn't win any of the first 10 races in the same car as the new champion. Does that make him any less worthy of being a championship contender?

It is funny, and a little ironic, to see the complaints about Button having a car advantage. That's what all teams try to do. Build the best car. Brawn did that. Button made the most of it when it was the best car, and when the likes of Red Bull had the best car Button did what he could do, and what he needed to do.

Yesterday's drive was worthy of any World Champion, and Button is a deserving, and worthy, World Champion.

[christophulus]

It is funny, and a little ironic, to see the complaints about Button having a car advantage. That's what all teams try to do. Build the best car. Brawn did that. Button made the most of it when it was the best car, and when the likes of Red Bull had the best car Button did what he could do, and what he needed to do.

All the more ironic when you consider a certain M.Schumacher had a crushingly dominant car in 2002 and 2004. Did he only deserve to win five titles then? No, he took advantage of the good car (like Button) and came out the winner.

Furthermore, people have been arguing the fact that F1 is all about the technological fight, when all the rumours about a spec-engine were flying around. The car makes a difference, but as you rightly say, Barrichello is some way off Button yet has identical machinery.


Yesterday's drive was worthy of any World Champion, and Button is a deserving, and worthy, World Champion.

Well said :up: . Many congratulations to Button but also Ross Brawn, without him this team wouldn't be here right now.

[ozrevhead]

I'm sad that Red Bull and Vettel couldn't pull it off this season.
There is always next year and Sebby, along Webber, should blossom.

Nevertheless, congratulations to Button.
yeah i was kinda like that post Singapore :(

However I have time to reflect and Im damm happy with Mark being his best ever season and UNLIKE everyone predicted he wasnt run rings around vettel nor has Vettel ended his career - he has 3 races where his pit crew ruined it with sloppy work in the pits and what idiots would forget to check the headrest in Japan......who knows what happend if that wasnt in the equasion

Back on topic and I will admit I wanted RB to win but 100% heartfelt congrats to Jenson (loved the singing bit even if it was off key :D ) he deserves it

[F1boat]

Not up to WDC level :confused: JB is the 2009 World Champion.

The championship is won over a full season of races. Not one race. Not a number of races. The whole season.

Yes, Brawn had an advantage at the beginning of the year but Button made absolutely the most of that. You say Button hasn't won any of the last 9 races. So what? Barrichello didn't win any of the first 10 races in the same car as the new champion. Does that make him any less worthy of being a championship contender?

It is funny, and a little ironic, to see the complaints about Button having a car advantage. That's what all teams try to do. Build the best car. Brawn did that. Button made the most of it when it was the best car, and when the likes of Red Bull had the best car Button did what he could do, and what he needed to do.

Yesterday's drive was worthy of any World Champion, and Button is a deserving, and worthy, World Champion.

Very, very well said, Arrows.

[555-04Q2]

Well done to Jenson and Brawn GP :up:

[Saint Devote]

Not up to WDC level :confused: JB is the 2009 World Champion.

The championship is won over a full season of races. Not one race. Not a number of races. The whole season.

Yes, Brawn had an advantage at the beginning of the year but Button made absolutely the most of that. You say Button hasn't won any of the last 9 races. So what? Barrichello didn't win any of the first 10 races in the same car as the new champion. Does that make him any less worthy of being a championship contender?

It is funny, and a little ironic, to see the complaints about Button having a car advantage. That's what all teams try to do. Build the best car. Brawn did that. Button made the most of it when it was the best car, and when the likes of Red Bull had the best car Button did what he could do, and what he needed to do.

Yesterday's drive was worthy of any World Champion, and Button is a deserving, and worthy, World Champion.

Exceptionally well said - but I would expect such a comment from someone that is a fan of one of the nicest and who is a person similar to Jenson, Riccardo Patrese. The nice people in f1.

I'd also like to add that Mercedes Benz High Performance Engines MBHPE are being tributed by Ross and the guys and so very worthy of that.

Without the support at the end of last year - which means no money initially and MBHPE prepared to provide engines and technical assistance to enable Brawn to go racing, based on who the team is, was a fantastic and generous act.

The final act that enabled Jenson to be on the Australisn grid was that.

As a Jenson fan - thank you so much :D

[DexDexter]

Not up to WDC level :confused: JB is the 2009 World Champion.

The championship is won over a full season of races. Not one race. Not a number of races. The whole season.

Yes, Brawn had an advantage at the beginning of the year but Button made absolutely the most of that. You say Button hasn't won any of the last 9 races. So what? Barrichello didn't win any of the first 10 races in the same car as the new champion. Does that make him any less worthy of being a championship contender?

It is funny, and a little ironic, to see the complaints about Button having a car advantage. That's what all teams try to do. Build the best car. Brawn did that. Button made the most of it when it was the best car, and when the likes of Red Bull had the best car Button did what he could do, and what he needed to do.

Yesterday's drive was worthy of any World Champion, and Button is a deserving, and worthy, World Champion.

I don't think it is unreasonable to be at least a bit critical of Button's championship based on the fact that he only had one podium in the last nine races while his teammate won races in a similar car. He did very well in the beginning and took advantage of the situation which is a testament to him but when was the last time a driver that won the WDC had such a bad second half of the season?

[F1boat]

I don't think it is unreasonable to be at least a bit critical of Button's championship based on the fact that he only had one podium in the last nine races while his teammate won races in a similar car. He did very well in the beginning and took advantage of the situation which is a testament to him but when was the last time a driver that won the WDC had such a bad second half of the season?

Yes, but on the other hand the first half of his season was spectacular, unlike Rubens, who scored zero victories.

[jonv]

Congratulations to Button and Brawn.

Knighthood for Ross Brawn?

[jimakos]

Ross Brawn made finally the surprise and took the championship in Drivers and teams!!!
Who could predict before the start of the season something like that??
Probably nobody ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

I don't think it is unreasonable to be at least a bit critical of Button's championship based on the fact that he only had one podium in the last nine races while his teammate won races in a similar car.
His team-mate won two races in the second part of the season. Also, in the last three races Button has outscored Barrichello. In those races he has the best Brawn result - 5th. Apart from RB's wins in Valencia and Monza, and JB's 2nd place at Monza, the Brawn has been off the front running pace in the second half of the year.

...when was the last time a driver that won the WDC had such a bad second half of the season?
I don't like to answer a question with a question, but when was the last time we had a season like this? In previous years the car that began the season strongly has normally ended the season strongly, but that has been far from the case with Brawn.

Put simply, Button and Brawn have done a better job then any other driver or team throughout the year. That's why he, and they, deserve to be champions.

[BeansBeansBeans]

He did very well in the beginning and took advantage of the situation which is a testament to him but when was the last time a driver that won the WDC had such a bad second half of the season?

Maybe it has never happened before, but who cares? There are many different ways to skin a cat, as they say.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Of course but part of a great driver is knowing when to play it safe.


Which is exactly what Button has often done — play it safe. That's apart from just being uncompetitive on occasions, by the way! Another part is knowing when you need to attack, surely? He did it, and it paid off. That it might not have done is neither here nor there.

'He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.’

Sun Tzu, The Art of War, 490 BC

[F1boat]

Ross Brawn made finally the surprise and took the championship in Drivers and teams!!!
Who could predict before the start of the season something like that??
Probably nobody ;)

Yes, I thought after testing that they may win the opening races, but the championship... OMG!

[Knock-on]

Genuinly shocked by the vitriolic comments on here against Jenson? I hadn't realised there was such animosity here.

After all, this team didn't exist a year ago and hit the first race with almost no testing. What a fabulous achievement.

Then we have the funds situation and while I don't doubt they benefitted from the budget of a top team during design, it has to be accepted that their operating budget has been less than their major contempories.

Finally we have the whole team performance and ethos. Drivers taking pay cuts to stay with the team, workers putting in 110% even when they didn't know they would have a job. A real refuse to die Dunkirk spirit from the boys at Brackley. It was about 10 years ago when I was with the Tyrrell boys when they had their final beer in the Mucky Duck. There was this hope that BAR would keep something of the spirtit alive and I can tell you it's still there and just wish Ken could have seen this day.

And what a champion. Jenson drove beautifully during the beginning of the season and descimated the field even when he didn't have the best car. He lead the championship from the first race, scored twice as many victories as any of his competition, was pushed by his team mate all the way rather than being gifted points and victories yet sitll wrapped it up by being 15 points ahead with a race to go. There was a bit of a wobble mid season but what a comeback and anyone that doesn't realise the all out gutsy drive he performed at Brazil has no right to call himeslf a Motorsport fan. Those drives are what makes me come back to F1 time and time again. Absolute class.

Well, if you don't have the class to celebrate this victory and accept the new champion then more fool you but Jenson Button and Brawn GP are World Champions 2009 so up yours :D

[Sonic]

Congratulations to Button and Brawn. That was the drive we have all been waiting for; a champions drive if ever I saw one.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Well, if you don't have the class to celebrate this victory and accept the new champion then more fool you but Jenson Button and Brawn GP are World Champions 2009 so up yours :D

:up:

I've seen many drivers lift the title in my lifetime, and I wasn't necessarily fond of them all, but I've always doffed my cap to them on the day. This is a sport, after all.

[GridGirl]

Well, if you don't have the class to celebrate this victory and accept the new champion then more fool you but Jenson Button and Brawn GP are World Champions 2009 so up yours :D

I'm not a Jenson fan but I do hope he gives all his knockers and the fans that deserted when Lewis arrived on the scene a big two fingered salute. From where Jenson has been compared to where he is today definately proves that your career definately isnt over untill you come out and say your going to retire. Yesterdays man can become todays man if you take advantage of all of the opportunities passed your way. :)

[wedge]

It is funny, and a little ironic, to see the complaints about Button having a car advantage. That's what all teams try to do. Build the best car. Brawn did that. Button made the most of it when it was the best car, and when the likes of Red Bull had the best car Button did what he could do, and what he needed to do.

Unfortunately Button has no all round game.

It's not only what you do with the best car, its what you do with it when you don't.

Struggled for solid weekends. Qualifying outside the top 10 became a worrying trend. Could never maximise a bad car and when he did it was verging on scraping the barrel.

Button is worthy champion - a champion of chumps.

Alonso, Kimi and Hamilton are proven champs, Massa was a worthy contender and would've made a fine champion. They never had the car all year. At the very least Button needs to be fighting one of those drivers more consistently to considered 'worthy'.

[ioan]

It is called the World Championship.
Not the one race championship.
Over the series Brawn and Button have won both.
If the Demented Midget had his way the drivers title would have been long decided.
I do not think (only my opinion) Jenson is the best driver in F1 today. But he and Brawn are over the F1 season were the best. That is all that counts.
A certain poster on here is making claims that the Brawn was illegal. Well the FIA said not so. To effing bad.
There have been many World Driving Champions who were not the best drivers at the time.
Just to name a few, Mike Hawthorne, Phill Hill, Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneve, Jody Scheckter.
I will be very interested to see how JB goes in the next race when the pressure is off.

Still Button is a weak champion, and not only he isn't the best driver in F1, he's not even top 10 out of 20.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Still Button is a weak champion, and not only he isn't the best driver in F1, he's not even top 10 out of 20.

Stating opinion as facts :)

[ioan]

Stating opinion as facts :)

Who said it's a fact, maybe you?! ;p:

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Who said it's a fact, maybe you?! ;p:

Sorry, but your sentence implied it was a fact, not an opinion.

If you had said 'In my opinion Button is a weak driver/champion and I don't think he is in the top 10 of current drivers' then maybe you wouldn't get a reaction.

[ioan]

Sorry, but sentance implied it was a fact, not an opinion.

If you had said 'In my opinion Button is a weak driver and I don't think he is in the top 10 of current drivers' then maybe you wouldn't get a reaction.

My signature says that everything I post is my opinion. :)

Anyway in my opinion Button is a weak champion, the weakest I witnessed. And BTW I'll appreciate it if people would accept an opinion without getting all hot under the collar. ;)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

My signature says that everything I post is my opinion. :)

Who reads signatures!?! :p

[DexDexter]

Yes, but on the other hand the first half of his season was spectacular, unlike Rubens, who scored zero victories.

I don't think anyone thinks that Rubens somehow deserves the championship more than Button.

[jimakos]

Who reads signatures!?! :p

Don't say that!!
Our signature represents something that we believe!!
That's why the most of us have one ;)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Don't say that!!
Our signature represents something that we believe!!
That's why the most of us have one ;)

*cough*

look at my signature ;)

:uhoh:

[ioan]

I don't think anyone thinks that Rubens somehow deserves the championship more than Button.

I agree, Rubens also used the controversial DD diffuser from the very start of the season.

[jimakos]

I don't think anyone thinks that Rubens somehow deserves the championship more than Button.

That's true!!
Nobody deserved the title more than Button,but don't forget that this year there wasn't a driver to win all the time like MS.
If there was Button wouldn't had taken the title... ;)

[jimakos]

*cough*

look at my signature ;)

:uhoh:

Yes that's something you believe!!
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
No problem!!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

This is getting ridiculous. So someone can't deserve the champion because they had the best car?

[Daniel]

Which is exactly what Button has often done — play it safe. That's apart from just being uncompetitive on occasions, by the way! Another part is knowing when you need to attack, surely? He did it, and it paid off. That it might not have done is neither here nor there.

Of course it's neither here nor there now but history is written after the event and if Jenson had picked up a puncture from Kobayashi then we wouldn't have this thread now. We'd have had something more along the lines of a Hamilton in China in 2007 moment. If Lewis had carried that off then he'd have been a hero.

I'm all for aggressive driving but I think that race yesterday was one of Jenson's worst this year in terms of his driving and his head. The individual passes were great but he just shouldn't have been taking some of the risks he was when he was in the position he was. For me a great driver is also one who is able to do just the bare minimum to ensure that the title is taken with as little risk as possible.

[DexDexter]

The facts are the following:

-Brawn had a clear advantage at the beginning of the season
- Button totally dominated the first part of the season against Rubens who went from a mistake to another
- Most championship contenders, the best drivers out there such as Räikkönen, Massa, Alonso, Hamilton all had bad cars. The only contender who had a quick car was inexperienced Vettel. Red Bull was also not used to being on top
- The others caught up, after which Brawn's were not so competitive any more and the cars weren't working that well. Button disappeared from the picture and Barrichello clearly beat him in most races and Rubens is not a Michael Schumacher or Fernando Alonso.
- Red Bull had numerous chances to beat Button but they also made too many mistakes which played into the hands of Jenson, driving in the midpack.

So he won it, he was the best if you look at statistics, but since this is a discussion board, you should be able to discuss things beyond "he won it, so he is the best".

[Daniel]

The facts are the following:

-Brawn had a clear advantage at the beginning of the season
- Button totally dominated the first part of the season against Rubens who went from a mistake to another
- Most championship contenders, the best drivers out there such as Räikkönen, Massa, Alonso, Hamilton all had bad cars. The only contender who had a quick car was inexperienced Vettel. Red Bull was also not used to being on top
- The others caught up, after which Brawn's were not so competitive any more and the cars weren't working that well. Button disappeared from the picture and Barrichello clearly beat him in most races and Rubens is not a Michael Schumacher or Fernando Alonso.
- Red Bull had numerous chances to beat Button but they also made too many mistakes which played into the hands of Jenson, driving in the midpack.

So he won it, he was the best if you look at statistics, but since this is a discussion board, you should be able to discuss things beyond "he won it, so he is the best".
Sadly this forum is very Britcentric DexDexter hence you get people who've probably never met a Finn going on about Kimi and how he lacks motivation and stuff like that when they simply don't understand Finns at all. I've only been to Finland twice so I'm hardly going to write a book on Finnish behavious but Kimi is a typcial Finn from what I can see. I really wish Kimi would go rallying, if he doesn't go rallying he should go for the team who are going to line his pockets with the most cash and then put his money towards a rallying career, I doubt Kimi would struggle to get sponsorship.......

This is a discussion forum, but only when it comes to discussing drivers and teams who aren't British.

[DexDexter]

Totally incorrect Daniel and quite patronising. We have seen in a recent discussion about Heikki and Kimi where the Brits amongst us have defended them to the hilt when come under criticism. Notably on the 'Kimi's Future thread where so called Ferrari fans have slated him and the Brit forumers have praised him and urged him to join Mclaren. Most Ferrari fans suggesting he go to WRC instead of staying in F1 is a prime example.

The British element only seems to appear when people like yourself mention it. ioan also brought it up yesterday so I fail to see how this can be blamed on anybody except certain individuals who wish it to be a problem. If I express an opinion I'm labelled a nationalist, if I defend a British team the nationality jibe gets thrown back at me! F1 has a huge British element and thats not a big headed statement, but the truth and if this can't be accepted then its a sorry state of affairs. :(

I've got absolutely no problem with any of your writings.

[Mark]

If you look back over the years, for the most part you'll find that the eventual winner of the championship is the one who did will at the start of the season. There was a run in the 1990's of a few years where the winner of the first race always won the title.

[AndyL]

I'm all for aggressive driving but I think that race yesterday was one of Jenson's worst this year in terms of his driving and his head. The individual passes were great but he just shouldn't have been taking some of the risks he was when he was in the position he was. For me a great driver is also one who is able to do just the bare minimum to ensure that the title is taken with as little risk as possible.

When he passed Grosjean, Nakajima and Kobayashi he was doing what he needed to do to win the title. If you look back at the positions in the race at that point, the gaps and the fuel loads remaining, I think you'll find Button did indeed need to pass them to win the title. Ultimately it might have turned out unnecessary because Rubens fell back and then had a bit of bad luck, but that's hindsight.

[Knock-on]

Sadly this forum is very Britcentric DexDexter hence you get people who've probably never met a Finn going on about Kimi and how he lacks motivation and stuff like that when they simply don't understand Finns at all. I've only been to Finland twice so I'm hardly going to write a book on Finnish behavious but Kimi is a typcial Finn from what I can see. I really wish Kimi would go rallying, if he doesn't go rallying he should go for the team who are going to line his pockets with the most cash and then put his money towards a rallying career, I doubt Kimi would struggle to get sponsorship.......

This is a discussion forum, but only when it comes to discussing drivers and teams who aren't British.

Sadly threads crash off course with pointless bashing of a nation with no justification or evidence than some invented generalisation based on an individuals personal bias :rolleyes:

So, back to the (unjust) bashing of Brawn and Button please.

[DexDexter]

Sadly threads crash off course with pointless bashing of a nation with no justification or evidence than some invented generalisation based on an individuals personal bias :rolleyes:

So, back to the (unjust) bashing of Brawn and Button please.

Aren't discussion boards about bashing, everyone gets their share. Sometimes it's Jenson, sometimes Fred, sometimes Kimi. :)

[jens]

Too often questions like "is he deserving or not?" are asked. Those questions are totally immaterial. Champion is the driver with most points over a full season and that's about it - discussions about "deserving", "luck", etc, do not matter. Of course we might rightly ask whether he has been among the most impressive champions or whether his title has been won in an impressive way compared to other champions, to which the answer would be "NO" imo, but this doesn't change the overall standings.

And most of all WDC is won by teamwork. Red Bull was too inconsistent and Ferrari/McLaren were simply not good enough to deserve it in 2009. Ross Brawn was the master of 2009. :up: But I think he will face more challenging seasons in the future. :)

[BeansBeansBeans]

So he won it, he was the best if you look at statistics, but since this is a discussion board, you should be able to discuss things beyond "he won it, so he is the best".

Whether Button is the best driver or not is up for discussion (personally I don't think he is). However, it is a fact that he is the world champion. The discussion becomes muddied when we're unable to differentiate between these two points.

[pino]

This morning it took me more than 30 min to clean this thread, and I've no intention to do that again, so please keep it on topic, and make sure you don't post any insults, because this time I am going to use the ban-button!

[BeansBeansBeans]

ban-button!

Whatever your opinion of his championship credentials, that's taking things a step too far.

[ArrowsFA1]

I agree :eek: You can't ban Button now :laugh: :p :

[Knock-on]

I agree :eek: You can't ban Button now :laugh: :p :


Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Max has spies everywhere. You've just given him an idea on how to get the championship down to the final race :(

[ArrowsFA1]

Oh bugger :mad: :p :

[DexDexter]

This morning it took me more than 30 min to clean this thread, and I've no intention to do that again, so please keep it on topic, and make sure you don't post any insults, because this time I am going to use the ban-button!

Being a moderator is a thankless job.

[Knock-on]

Being a moderator is a thankless job.

Being Pino is a thankless task, believe me :p

[rabf1]

I like Button and I'm glad he won. All the races count equally. It was disappointing that the team, which had such a dominant car at the outset, was a mid-packer not too far after the mid-point in the season. But that wasn't Button's fault. He got the maximum from the car when it was good and that was enough to carry him to the title. But it does not bode well for next year for Brawn.

[Andy Harrison]

Jenson Button may not be not greatest F1 driver in history but he is a worthy winner for the 2009 season!

6 out of 7 wins with a great car, steady points for the rest of the season with a less competitive car and finally clinching the title with an aggressive drive leaving 1 race to spare (Overtaking rookie drivers is not easy and could easily have ended his charge).

Well done Jenson!!!

Cool Interview from earlier this season
http://grid1.tv/#browse/media_vault/drivers?id=1_238

[ioan]

The facts are the following:

-Brawn had a clear advantage at the beginning of the season
- Button totally dominated the first part of the season against Rubens who went from a mistake to another
- Most championship contenders, the best drivers out there such as Räikkönen, Massa, Alonso, Hamilton all had bad cars. The only contender who had a quick car was inexperienced Vettel. Red Bull was also not used to being on top
- The others caught up, after which Brawn's were not so competitive any more and the cars weren't working that well. Button disappeared from the picture and Barrichello clearly beat him in most races and Rubens is not a Michael Schumacher or Fernando Alonso.
- Red Bull had numerous chances to beat Button but they also made too many mistakes which played into the hands of Jenson, driving in the midpack.

So he won it, he was the best if you look at statistics, but since this is a discussion board, you should be able to discuss things beyond "he won it, so he is the best".

A well reasoned post, the best in this thread IMO. :up:

[ioan]

Sadly this forum is very Britcentric DexDexter hence you get people who've probably never met a Finn going on about Kimi and how he lacks motivation and stuff like that when they simply don't understand Finns at all. I've only been to Finland twice so I'm hardly going to write a book on Finnish behavious but Kimi is a typcial Finn from what I can see. I really wish Kimi would go rallying, if he doesn't go rallying he should go for the team who are going to line his pockets with the most cash and then put his money towards a rallying career, I doubt Kimi would struggle to get sponsorship.......

This is a discussion forum, but only when it comes to discussing drivers and teams who aren't British.

Well put.

[BDunnell]

Too often questions like "is he deserving or not?" are asked. Those questions are totally immaterial. Champion is the driver with most points over a full season and that's about it - discussions about "deserving", "luck", etc, do not matter. Of course we might rightly ask whether he has been among the most impressive champions or whether his title has been won in an impressive way compared to other champions, to which the answer would be "NO" imo, but this doesn't change the overall standings.

That is the sort of post that should garner the response 'very well put', rather than another quoted in the vicinity.

[BDunnell]

Of course it's neither here nor there now but history is written after the event and if Jenson had picked up a puncture from Kobayashi then we wouldn't have this thread now. We'd have had something more along the lines of a Hamilton in China in 2007 moment. If Lewis had carried that off then he'd have been a hero.

I'm all for aggressive driving but I think that race yesterday was one of Jenson's worst this year in terms of his driving and his head. The individual passes were great but he just shouldn't have been taking some of the risks he was when he was in the position he was. For me a great driver is also one who is able to do just the bare minimum to ensure that the title is taken with as little risk as possible.

Daniel, your view would be completely different had another driver for whom you, for whatever reason, have more regard driven exactly the same race, and you know it.

[Daniel]

Daniel, your view would be completely different had another driver for whom you, for whatever reason, have more regard driven exactly the same race, and you know it.



Back after Monza when Lewis crashed out in the dying stages I defended him because he was trying to push the car as much as possible and he had nothing to gain by being conservative. Now we all know I'm not the biggest fan of Lewis but I felt it wasn't fair for people to come down so hard on him for losing a few meaningless points. So there's your attempt at some sort of proof of bias blown out of the water.

In my opinion (hopefully I'm allowed to have one oh supreme overlord BDunnell :rolleyes: ) Jenson had more to lose than he had to gain from pushing like crazy. Sure it's earnt him the championship a race early with it working out but if he'd got punted off and Rubens hadn't got that puncture then Jenson was under a lot of pressure in Abu Dhabi. The intelligent thing would have been to bank a couple of points safely here and then not have quite as much pressure on yourself at the new track where god knows what could happen. I can think of two good examples of drivers pushing too hard when they didn't need to and ****ing up titles. Colin McRae in 2001 on Rally GB is a good example and Lewis Hamilton 2007 is another great one. If Lewis hadn't beached it in the pit entrance in that race people would be talking about how great he is etc etc but he took the risk and paid for it, if you can't see the similarities between those two situations then...... wtf?

[BDunnell]

Back after Monza when Lewis crashed out in the dying stages I defended him because he was trying to push the car as much as possible and he had nothing to gain by being conservative. Now we all know I'm not the biggest fan of Lewis but I felt it wasn't fair for people to come down so hard on him for losing a few meaningless points. So there's your attempt at some sort of proof of bias blown out of the water.

In my opinion (hopefully I'm allowed to have one oh supreme overlord BDunnell :rolleyes: ) Jenson had more to lose than he had to gain from pushing like crazy. Sure it's earnt him the championship a race early with it working out but if he'd got punted off and Rubens hadn't got that puncture then Jenson was under a lot of pressure in Abu Dhabi. The intelligent thing would have been to bank a couple of points safely here and then not have quite as much pressure on yourself at the new track where god knows what could happen. I can think of two good examples of drivers pushing too hard when they didn't need to and ****ing up titles. Colin McRae in 2001 on Rally GB is a good example and Lewis Hamilton 2007 is another great one. If Lewis hadn't beached it in the pit entrance in that race people would be talking about how great he is etc etc but he took the risk and paid for it, if you can't see the similarities between those two situations then...... wtf?

I still disagree with you, not least given your defence of Webber's blocking move as expressed earlier in the thread. How is that acceptable and yet Button's driving worthy of criticism? I just don't get your attitude on this one.

[Daniel]

Totally incorrect Daniel and quite patronising. We have seen in a recent discussion about Heikki and Kimi where the Brits amongst us have defended them to the hilt when come under criticism. Notably on the 'Kimi's Future thread where so called Ferrari fans have slated him and the Brit forumers have praised him and urged him to join Mclaren. Most Ferrari fans suggesting he go to WRC instead of staying in F1 is a prime example.

People want Kimi to go to rallying for different reasons than you think. Firstly in Finland he showed some decent speed, secondly he's Finnish so rallying is in his blood, thirdly some of us prefer rallying to F1 so having such a great driver in the WRC or IRC is a no-brainer. The forum is full of people trying to twist people's words to mean something else and it's seriously doing my head in.

The forum has been full of people doubting Kimi's commitment and anyone trying to argue otherwise is just kidding themselves.

[Daniel]

I still disagree with you, not least given your defence of Webber's blocking move as expressed earlier in the thread. How is that acceptable and yet Button's driving worthy of criticism? I just don't get your attitude on this one.

Mark wasn't racing for the title. If he'd hit someone and picked up a puncture he missed out on a win, if Jenson did that then he had the potential to lose a championship.

WDC > Race win.

I simply can't state it any simpler than that.

[BDunnell]

Mark wasn't racing for the title. If he'd hit someone and picked up a puncture he missed out on a win, if Jenson did that then he had the potential to lose a championship.

WDC > Race win.

I simply can't state it any simpler than that.

Daniel, as an enthusiast of motor racing, I will never agree with your view on this matter.

I presume you would say the same thing of Jackie Stewart getting involved in a titanic last-corner scrap at the 1969 Italian GP, while in contention for the title?

[Daniel]

Sadly threads crash off course with pointless bashing of a nation with no justification or evidence than some invented generalisation based on an individuals personal bias :rolleyes:

So, back to the (unjust) bashing of Brawn and Button please.

I never bashed any nation, I simply said that the forum is Britcentric which is not Daniel speak for OMFG Britain sucks!

Also, where has anyone bashed Brawn as a team? Nope..... can't see any great swathes of people bashing Brawn when they were simply the best.

You do like to manufacture a bit of drama don't you knockie?

[Daniel]

Daniel, as an enthusiast of motor racing, I will never agree with your view on this matter.

I presume you would say the same thing of Jackie Stewart getting involved in a titanic last-corner scrap at the 1969 Italian GP, while in contention for the title?
Well considering my dad was only a teenager at the time I'll have to admit that I wasn't alive at the time.

Ben, like I said if Jenson had picked up a puncture, damage or even worse yet and injury we wouldn't have this thread right now and perhaps we'd even have one for Rubens in about 2 weeks time.

Perhaps the purist might like a driver to race whenever possible and push as hard as they can but history shows that more often than not it's the driver who settles for low risk points who ends up getting the title over the driver with more wins and a lot more speed..

[BDunnell]

Ben, like I said if Jenson had picked up a puncture, damage or even worse yet and injury we wouldn't have this thread right now and perhaps we'd even have one for Rubens in about 2 weeks time.

I am not a fan of 'what ifs'. Incidents/accidents can happen in motor racing at virtually every turn. The only way to prevent them is not to take part at all.


Hamilton was an absolute dunce for what he did in 2007. He had the title within his grasp and just did things he didn't need to........

I agree with that, but I didn't see any comparison with Button's driving yesterday. What I saw was incisive, aggressive overtaking.

[Daniel]

I am not a fan of 'what ifs'. Incidents/accidents can happen in motor racing at virtually every turn. The only way to prevent them is not to take part at all.



I agree with that, but I didn't see any comparison with Button's driving yesterday. What I saw was incisive, aggressive overtaking.
So what you're saying is that if someone runs across a busy motorway and gets hit and dies they're a dunce but if they make it through they're a hero?