No more excuses for McLaren - Montoya...

[fly_ac]

Monday 19th February 2007
No more excuses for McLaren - Montoya...
McLaren has run out of excuses for why the Woking based team has not won a championship since 1999.

That is the claim of Juan Pablo Montoya, who won three races in a silver single seater until he switched to the NASCAR scene last year.

"McLaren is under a lot of pressure now," the Colombian told the Spanish magazine Grand Prix, "because the drivers are new, the image is new; they have to get results."

Referring to Fernando Alonso, Montoya continued: "With a world champion who has beaten Schumacher (in the team), they have run out of excuses."

The 31-year-old fell out famously with McLaren's boss, but Montoya thinks Spaniard Alonso "will get on well" with Ron Dennis.

"The million dollar question is how the car and the engine will go," Montoya said.

Despite McLaren's fine form on the winter tracks, he thinks the Mercedes-powered team will be beaten by Ferrari and his old teammate Kimi Raikkonen.

But he said: "(Felipe) Massa might have a very good start (to 2007)."

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I have never liked Montoya that much, but agree with him that Mclawnmower has to come to the party at some stage.

What do you think?

[F1boat]

I agree with Montoya as well. McLaren Mercedes has to win it, or they'll turn into complete joke.

[raphael123]

They really should have won the title in 2000 and 2005. It's because they just missed out on those two titles, when you say 1999 it seems like such a long time ago. It's not as if they haven't built cars which had the potential to win a title since 99. I'm sure they will win a title sooner or later, unlike Williams unfortuantely.

But yes JPM is right, they do really need a title in the bag within Alonso's time in the team

[Narr]

McLaren's tactic of tacitly favouring one driver over another for the past decade has shown that choosing the wrong driver can really work against a team.

In my view Ron just hasn't managed the team correctly in the recent past and got the most out of his drivers even when they had a good car.

[raphael123]

McLaren's tactic of tacitly favouring one driver over another for the past decade has shown that choosing the wrong driver can really work against a team.

In my view Ron just hasn't managed the team correctly in the recent past and got the most out of his drivers even when they had a good car.

You mean Ron hasn't managed the team correctly generally?

Or are you referring specifically to your other point in that he has favoured one driver over the other, but favoured the wrong driver (which is what you mean when you say he hasn't managed the team correctly)?

If it is the latter, can you expand on that please? :)

[555-04Q2]

Mclaren wont win a championship for another 4 years yet. 6 years of their 10 year cycle as losers that I predicted has gone and 4 remain including the 2007 season.

So far I have been right, the next four years will decide my fate as a fortune teller :p :

[Bagwan]

I see .
Slagging your former team with more politically correct innuendo is ok then .

And saying that Felipe Massa might do well is fine as long as you haven't had any personal experience as his team-mate .

And , falling out with his team boss is different because it was due to tennis .

I get it now .
That's why JPM isn't a poison dwarf .


Sorry , Race .
I have nothing against Juan . He's a lot like my favourite driver .

[Narr]

You mean Ron hasn't managed the team correctly generally?

Or are you referring specifically to your other point in that he has favoured one driver over the other, but favoured the wrong driver (which is what you mean when you say he hasn't managed the team correctly)?

If it is the latter, can you expand on that please? :)

There are a number of people who think, and I agree with this, that the building of the Paragon centre, a road car for Merc and various other activities has distracted Ron from his key focus or running the F1 team. In addition to that the people that have left, engineers, the odd star designer etc speak of McLaren being slightly stiffling to work at.

Added to all of that he has always either favoured Kimi or Mika, I know there are countless people that will argue McLaren don't have team orders, and they may be more sutble than Ferrari (Austria 2002) but they are still there. Being asked to play the "team game" is still being told not to rock the boat as your team mate should be winning and not you.

[RaikkonenRules]

I'm sure Raikkonen will win this year but McLaren has to win with Alonso at some point.

[VresiBerba]

I see .
Slagging your former team with more politically correct innuendo is ok then .

You can't possibly suggest that what Montoya said constitutes as 'slagging your former team'?

[futuretiger9]

McLaren will not have any excuses if they fail to at least contend for the world title this year. They have the best all-round driver, a colossal budget, fabulous facilities etc. The word is that Ron Dennis has not exuded such confidence since the days of Hakkinen (1998/1999). Only the spectre of unreliability can hinder them, it would seem.

[K-Pu]

I don´t see them winning this year´s championships. Not the WDC, and not the WCC.

Or at least they don´t see themselves capable of it, and that´s not a good beginning.

[Roamy]

Right now i think Alonso is the best driver in F1 - it is up for Kimi to challenge however the challenge may come from Massa or Button if Button is ever going to get it up it will be this year.

[Bagwan]

You can't possibly suggest that what Montoya said constitutes as 'slagging your former team'?

Vresi , you know I am .

"...they have run out of excuses..." implies they were using them often .

"...how the car and engine will go. " puts all the emphasis on what Juan believes went wrong for him .

His pointed comment that Alonso "will get on well " is direct reference to his having had a hassle with Ron .

And pointing to Kimi winning is not so different from JV pointing out Felipe as having a good chance .

[VresiBerba]

... is not so different from JV pointing out...

Well that's it right there, isn't it. Your beef is not really about what Montoya said, but the reaction to what Villeneuve said in contrast. Look, I happen to agree with everything 'ol Jacques said, except for the Coulthard comment so don't come raining any parades on me and my man. Leave Villeneuve out of this.

[raikk]

LOL every time Mclaren starts the season threads like this come up...Mclaren have so far been doing better in testing then Ferrari not to mention more reliable... Hell even Pat Symmonds says this is a new Mclaren team! Lets wait and see what happens in the beggining of the year...

[raphael123]

There are a number of people who think, and I agree with this, that the building of the Paragon centre, a road car for Merc and various other activities has distracted Ron from his key focus or running the F1 team. In addition to that the people that have left, engineers, the odd star designer etc speak of McLaren being slightly stiffling to work at.

Added to all of that he has always either favoured Kimi or Mika, I know there are countless people that will argue McLaren don't have team orders, and they may be more sutble than Ferrari (Austria 2002) but they are still there. Being asked to play the "team game" is still being told not to rock the boat as your team mate should be winning and not you.

That's fair enough. I just wanted clarification on what aspect of Ron's management has he got wrong. I have to agree, or at the minimum I can't say I don't think the Paragon Centre etc has maybe distracted him. I can't say for sure it has, but I can't say for sure it hasn't either.

I was mainly interested in finding out if you included the way he has managed favouring one driver over another. I don't think many people will argue McLaren have used team-orders, but they tend to do so when it is mathematically impossible, or highly unlikely the other driver can win the title. And even then, it is only when a title is at stake. It's nothing in comparison to the way Ferrari have run their team since 96, and Benettons did for the 94/95 season. Can you clarify whether you critical of Ron for favouring a driver at all, even if it is just at the end of the season when a title is at stake? Or are you critical of Ron for not being more direct in having a No1 and a No2 like Ferrari have successfully used over the past decade?

Cheers :)

[SGWilko]

I think Paragon and the SLR have diverted some resources, and had an affect on the racing. Just like the McLaren F1 did a while back.

I do recall however Ron singing about how he could manage Juan better than Frank & Pat did, but that was one in the eye for Ron, wasn't it.....?

[Ranger]

I do recall however Ron singing about how he could manage Juan better than Frank & Pat did

He probably could.

But he didn't.

[Bagwan]

Well that's it right there, isn't it. Your beef is not really about what Montoya said, but the reaction to what Villeneuve said in contrast. Look, I happen to agree with everything 'ol Jacques said, except for the Coulthard comment so don't come raining any parades on me and my man. Leave Villeneuve out of this.

You're right again , Vresi .

I'm not really upset with Juan at all .
I wish he hadn't left .

[Narr]

Can you clarify whether you critical of Ron for favouring a driver at all, even if it is just at the end of the season when a title is at stake? Or are you critical of Ron for not being more direct in having a No1 and a No2 like Ferrari have successfully used over the past decade?

Cheers :)

Although Ron states that they only favour one driver at the end of the season I think that be it Mika or Kimi they give the favoured driver more support. DC having to pull over for Mika in 97 so he could get his first win for instance even though neither of them figured in the WDC.

I admit Ferrari, with Michael, had an extreme style of favouring a driver I just think McLaren do it more subtly and give the favoured one more support and leeway (giving them the benefit of the doubt after an accident rather than saying they had brain fade, crying when the beloved one gets his first win etc..).

Am I critical? Yes I guess so but only because I find Ron hypocritical. :)

[raphael123]

Although Ron states that they only favour one driver at the end of the season I think that be it Mika or Kimi they give the favoured driver more support. DC having to pull over for Mika in 97 so he could get his first win for instance even though neither of them figured in the WDC.

I admit Ferrari, with Michael, had an extreme style of favouring a driver I just think McLaren do it more subtly and give the favoured one more support and leeway (giving them the benefit of the doubt after an accident rather than saying they had brain fade, crying when the beloved one gets his first win etc..).

Am I critical? Yes I guess so but only because I find Ron hypocritical. :)

Yes I know about the fact McLaren do show favouritism to a particular driver. What I wanted you to answer was if it was incorrect according to you, how do you think it should be done? Is it the Ferrari way, or to be completely 100% neutral to both drivers? :)

[ioan]

Yes I know about the fact McLaren do show favouritism to a particular driver. What I wanted you to answer was if it was incorrect according to you, how do you think it should be done? Is it the Ferrari way, or to be completely 100% neutral to both drivers? :)

As long as money is involved it's the Ferrari way, when that won't be anymore the case than it should be neutral (but that will never happen in F1 no matter what people say).

[raphael123]

As long as money is involved it's the Ferrari way, when that won't be anymore the case than it should be neutral (but that will never happen in F1 no matter what people say).

The question was directed towards Narr, but nevertheless I shall respond to you :)

My personal opinion on this is that F1 is a sport. Ferrari's tactics from 96-2005/6 in my eyes have not been very sporting.

I can understand the use of team-orders, however if they are to be used, they should be used near the end of a season when a title is at stake, and then it is completely acceptable, and understandable for them to be used.

Though I was sad to see Schumacher leave, I do hope Ferrari return to equal No1's, the way it should be in my eyes.

[SGWilko]

The question was directed towards Narr, but nevertheless I shall respond to you :)

My personal opinion on this is that F1 is a sport. Ferrari's tactics from 96-2005/6 in my eyes have not been very sporting.

I can understand the use of team-orders, however if they are to be used, they should be used near the end of a season when a title is at stake, and then it is completely acceptable, and understandable for them to be used.

Though I was sad to see Schumacher leave, I do hope Ferrari return to equal No1's, the way it should be in my eyes.

I completely agree with all of that, but sadly, history has shown that allowing your two drivers race each other can lead to loss of the championship.

1986 - Mansell & Piquet, now I appreciate that the tyre blow out skewed things, as he was on for the title, if they hadn't taken points off each other in the year, he could already have been champ. I think Prost won it that year.

I am not sanctioning the early use of team orders (a la Ferrari) you understand, just using the above to demonstrate a point.

[F1boat]

And remember year 2000. McLaren would have probably won with one top-driver.

[leopard]

i think this year would be the better stage for McLaren, but i have worries i'll say the same thing if i were Montoya :laugh:

[sills]

I reackon Massa is as good as kimi if he is let race him Massa showd speed equaling Alonso and Schumacer espically towards the end of the season if given his fair chance he will be champ this year

[raphael123]

I completely agree with all of that, but sadly, history has shown that allowing your two drivers race each other can lead to loss of the championship.

1986 - Mansell & Piquet, now I appreciate that the tyre blow out skewed things, as he was on for the title, if they hadn't taken points off each other in the year, he could already have been champ. I think Prost won it that year.

I am not sanctioning the early use of team orders (a la Ferrari) you understand, just using the above to demonstrate a point.

That's a fair point. I know this isn't reality, but the Drivers Title is meant to be earned by the driver, not by another driver moving aside for you. The Constructors is for the team.

What makes F1Boat think Mika or DC being a No2 for an entire season would have resulted in Schumacher not winning the title?

Disappointed Narr hasn't responded, I was curious, but maybe he's busy :)

[F1boat]

What makes F1Boat think Mika or DC being a No2 for an entire season would have resulted in Schumacher not winning the title?
:)

Back in 2000, a newspapre dedicated to cars and car racing made some calculations which showed that if Hakkinen was number 1 driver and Coulthard was letting him ahed in his dominant races, he would have won the title or be even closer to Michael.

[Big Ben]

So Montoya says (more or less) now that he and KR are out and Alonso and Hamilton are in, Mclaren have no excuses if they fail. Good. I have never suspected JPM of being so humble. I totally agree with him. Without him they must do better.

[raphael123]

Back in 2000, a newspapre dedicated to cars and car racing made some calculations which showed that if Hakkinen was number 1 driver and Coulthard was letting him ahed in his dominant races, he would have won the title or be even closer to Michael.

Can you give some more detail, apart from 'A Newspaper said it 7 years ago'.

I would personally prefer winning a title through my own talents than relying on a team-mate to move over. Near the end of the season when a title race hots up, fair enough, you should expect a bit of support from your team-mate, but not from Race 1!! I think apart from Michael, most drivers feel the same - they want to earn the title.

[raphael123]

So Montoya says (more or less) now that he and KR are out and Alonso and Hamilton are in, Mclaren have no excuses if they fail. Good. I have never suspected JPM of being so humble. I totally agree with him. Without him they must do better.

That depends if you can read or not :)
He says they have a World Champion on board, so they can't blame their drivers anymore. I don't think JPM means that he doesn't think he could have won a title given the car.

[Big Ben]

That depends if you can read or not :)
He says they have a World Champion on board, so they can't blame their drivers anymore. I don't think JPM means that he doesn't think he could have won a title given the car.

I can read but I ve learnt on this forum to misunderstand statements when I need to.
However JPM is talking to much about his former team and seems to blame everybody except (of course) himself. The car was not good, f1 became suddenly boring bla bla and more of the same crap
He was fired by Mclaren and replaced by a test driver and no other top team wanted him and this bothers him.
He had a very good car in 2005, by far the fastest and what did he do with it? JPM lost the WCC for Mclaren but you don't hear them complaining all the time about this.

[raphael123]

I can read but I ve learnt on this forum to misunderstand statements when I need to.
However JPM is talking to much about his former team and seems to blame everybody except (of course) himself. The car was not good, f1 became suddenly boring bla bla and more of the same crap
He was fired by Mclaren and replaced by a test driver and no other top team wanted him and this bothers him.
He had a very good car in 2005, by far the fastest and what did he do with it? JPM lost the WCC for Mclaren but you don't hear them complaining all the time about this.

JPM lost the WCC? I think Kimi's reliability cost McLaren more points than JPM's mistakes. The WCC is the Constructors title, it's a team effort. You can't blame one individual.

I can understand why JPM decided he'd had enough of F1. Compare overtaking these days to say back to even 97 and even 98 it's a nightmare. I hope 2008's regulation solve it!

[Big Ben]

JPM lost the WCC? I think Kimi's reliability cost McLaren more points than JPM's mistakes. The WCC is the Constructors title, it's a team effort. You can't blame one individual.

I can understand why JPM decided he'd had enough of F1. Compare overtaking these days to say back to even 97 and even 98 it's a nightmare. I hope 2008's regulation solve it!

I don't remember F1 being much more spectacular in 97 or 98. Back then the pit stop was the most frequent overtaking maneuver.
KR got 112 points while JPM only gathered 60.
In the last 2 races of that season he actually scored 0, not too many compared to the KR's 18. Mclaren needed 10 points from him to win the wcc. I think he had the car to get 5 points per race.
It's going to be difficult to enforce such regulation. People wants F1 to be a hi tech sport and they want more overtaking. Understandable but not that easy to achieve.

[VresiBerba]

In the last 2 races of that season he actually scored 0, not too many compared to the KR's 18. Mclaren needed 10 points from him to win the wcc. I think he had the car to get 5 points per race.

I trust you're aware of what happened to Montoya in those two last races, yes? What about the mistakes of Kimi, well over 10 points and the team itself, well over 10 points as well, do they not count?

[Big Ben]

I trust you're aware of what happened to Montoya in those two last races, yes? What about the mistakes of Kimi, well over 10 points and the team itself, well over 10 points as well, do they not count?

He may be excused as he scored more points than JPM. I'm aware what happened in those races. he got involved in an accident with JV in Japan and hit that piece of chinese ****ty kerb. Whatsoever he was the first and only to do that. I don't want to start to analyze the entire season now but I can recall other moments when he left GPs with no points for him or Mclaren and because of his own errors.

[F1boat]

Can you give some more detail, apart from 'A Newspaper said it 7 years ago'.

I would personally prefer winning a title through my own talents than relying on a team-mate to move over. Near the end of the season when a title race hots up, fair enough, you should expect a bit of support from your team-mate, but not from Race 1!! I think apart from Michael, most drivers feel the same - they want to earn the title.

No, I don't keep this issue. Back there, I had no Internet and bought newspapers.
BTW, I think that most of the drivers will do everything to win the title and would prefer number 1 status. Few would admit it, though.
And BTW the only case in which I remember nu 2 driver to let nu 1 in Rd1 is Australia 98 - DC and Mika.

[Scuderia ferrari]

Well they have good drivers, good people behind the scenes, so the only thing they have to sort out is there rubbish reliability! Yes, they will turn into a complete joke if they don't win this year, and they already partly are with last years rubbish season.

[raphael123]

I don't remember F1 being much more spectacular in 97 or 98. Back then the pit stop was the most frequent overtaking maneuver.


are you sure you were watching F1 then? Overtaking was much more frequent back then. It was easier to follow a car. Thesedays as soon as you get to within 2sec of a car you get the drag preventing you from following them closely.



KR got 112 points while JPM only gathered 60.
In the last 2 races of that season he actually scored 0, not too many compared to the KR's 18. Mclaren needed 10 points from him to win the wcc. I think he had the car to get 5 points per race.
It's going to be difficult to enforce such regulation. People wants F1 to be a hi tech sport and they want more overtaking. Understandable but not that easy to achieve.

If you want to analyse F1 seasons through statistics go ahead. But then you'll never really get the true picture of that season. There are things that statistics don't tell you. Your missing out if your only going to look back at seasons statistically.

Kimi without a doubt had the better season that year, though Montoya was pretty much equal with Kimi in the 2nd half of that season. If Montoya didn't break his shoulder, or if he had settled into the team quicker, yes McLaren would have won the WCC. But that's like saying if Kimi didn't suffer 4-5 engine failures, which cost him 50-60pts they would have won the WCC, or if Kimi didn't make that silly mistake in Nurb which cost him 10pts etc. At the end of the day, I agree that JPM could have done more, but he wasn't the main reason why they failed to clinch the WCC. That was mainly down to poor reliability, but as I said, it was a team effort. Renault simply did a better job.

To say Montoya was the main reason shows your maturity, or lack of :)

[raphael123]

No, I don't keep this issue. Back there, I had no Internet and bought newspapers.
BTW, I think that most of the drivers will do everything to win the title and would prefer number 1 status. Few would admit it, though.
And BTW the only case in which I remember nu 2 driver to let nu 1 in Rd1 is Australia 98 - DC and Mika.

That was a driver agreement rather than a team order. Wrong nevertheless!
A No1 and No2 isn't just out on track. It includes the people working on your car, when they use to have spare cars, the amount of testing you can get done - so many different things. Maybe thats why Ferrari fans get confused if they only think having a No1 and No2 only involves moving aside when your team-mate is behind you.

[VresiBerba]

He may be excused as he scored more points than JPM. I'm aware what happened in those races. he got involved in an accident with JV in Japan and hit that piece of chinese ****ty kerb. Whatsoever he was the first and only to do that. I don't want to start to analyze the entire season now but I can recall other moments when he left GPs with no points for him or Mclaren and because of his own errors.

So what! It was you who brought up the amount of points Montoya failed to score in order to secure the McLaren WCC, and I countered that with the amount of points Kimi and Team McLaren lost. Why is Montoya the only culprit when Kimi and Team McLaren did their fair share of mistakes as well?

Finally I don't know how even the worst Montoya detractor can possibly blame him for his demise in China. That drain cover should not have been there in the first place. After he hit it it was removed, whereby no one else of course hit it after he did. And frankly, this is like explaining to someone perfectly sane that green is green and a hammer is a hammer.