Driven

[call_me_andrew]

I managed to catch it on TV again today. In case your wondering, it still sucks.

I watched the credits this time. How can so many people have worked on a movie that was so awful?

[The instant classic]

i kind of like the movie till one spot that killed the whole movie

when the car goes up over the fence into the pond and everything was gonna catch on fire and blow up, first time seeing that i was like.......................weird.............."i now shut the movie off"

[NickFalzone]

i kind of like the movie till one spot that killed the whole movie

when the car goes up over the fence into the pond and everything was gonna catch on fire and blow up, first time seeing that i was like.......................weird.............."i now shut the movie off"

Yeah, they got some stuff right. I don't hate it. But the stuff they got wrong (or creatively "embellished") was awful and took what could have been a decent Hollywood take on late 90s CART and turned it into some kind of ridiculous kids movie. I'd say it's about 1/3 of a good movie, 1/3 of a so-so one, and a 1/3 of a really terrible one.

[Mark in Oshawa]

You ask how many really good people could work on a movie that was so bad? Really simple actually. When you are making a movie, only a very small few see the script. What is more, the people in the know in racing who were in on the making of this probably just saw enough to maybe be worried, but likely thought "no...it cant be THAT bad. Surely there is more to this that I haven't seen"

Also, they wouldn't have had creative control.

THere was a lot of Canadian racers and the like that worked on this dog and most of them had NO idea. Buddies of mine were extra's and they had no idea what it was going to look like.

No one did...just like many in the NASCAR world couldn't believe what a crappy movie Days of Thunder turned out to be.....

[NickFalzone]

Well, I like Days of Thunder a lot. Driven, not so much.

[indyracefan]

I drove the actual Nextel movie car at the Nashville SuperSpeedway.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y282/indyracefan/DSC_6586.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y282/indyracefan/DSC_6690.jpg

[booger]

There is only one racing movie ever made that was good, and that was Grand Prix. No computer action graphics, no fake race tracks and pretty much a believable story. Great music score (written just for the movie by the way). And in Cinerama it was awsome! LeMans wasn't bad, but not as good as GP. All the rest are mere cartoons.

[chuck34]

There is only one racing movie ever made that was good, and that was Grand Prix. No computer action graphics, no fake race tracks and pretty much a believable story. Great music score (written just for the movie by the way). And in Cinerama it was awsome! LeMans wasn't bad, but not as good as GP. All the rest are mere cartoons.

I would say you're spot on with this.

[chuck34]

I'd reverse LeMans and Grand Prix, but, yeah. :up:

They are really close to the same level. But in my mind (for whatever that's worth) the story is quite a bit better in Grand Prix. The racing action is probably better in LeMans. Overall, though the racing stuff isn't enough better in LeMans to make it a better MOVIE. Grand Prix puts the whole package together, good story, good racing, good acting, etc.

[chuck34]

What was the movie with Paul Newman, in like '68 or so? Winning? I've never seen it, any opinions?

Also, wasn't there a movie about the 500 from way back? Something like For the Love of a Woman or something like that? Any thoughts?

[DBell]

What was the movie with Paul Newman, in like '68 or so? Winning? I've never seen it, any opinions?

Also, wasn't there a movie about the 500 from way back? Something like For the Love of a Woman or something like that? Any thoughts?


Winning wasn't bad imo. It was about Indy Car racing. Paul's wife Joanne Woodard was in it along with Robert Wagner. It wasn't in the same league as GP and Lemans, but better than most racing movies. I believe it was this movie that got Newman interested in racing.

The modern racing movies have left me cold. Didn't care for Days of Thunder and literally walked out of the theater on Driven. Horrible, but with Stallone doing it, how could it not be.

[call_me_andrew]

I can almost forget the lake fire since the script was originally about Formula One.

When Gran Prix and Le Mans hyped up the crashed, it was okay because racing was so much more dangerous then. These days the odds favor the drivers walking away unharmed (even in the worst crashes).

Then when the writers need another source of drama, they hype up winning like 2nd place is some sort of disgrace.

"My mind has to be out there, not in here."
"The fear is never gone."
"Everyone falls down. It's how quickly you get back up that counts."

Why does every line have to be a catch phrase?

And then there's the Sony PlayStation driving tips like "0.5% less accell in turns". Like a driver can't figure out to go slower.



http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y282/indyracefan/DSC_6690.jpg

Were they trying to stall the front wing? Where did they get those wheels?

[PA Rick]

What was the movie with Paul Newman, in like '68 or so? Winning? I've never seen it, any opinions?

Also, wasn't there a movie about the 500 from way back? Something like For the Love of a Woman or something like that? Any thoughts?

I loved winning, not just for the Indy plot, but for the other stuff like racing the mini cooper, and I think there is a Riverside NASCAR subplot.
And don't forgrt "Silent Movie" when Paul Newman is in a wheelchair and they are chasing him in another wheelchair. There are some great low angle shots with the heat shimmering off the pavement and the wheelchairs coming around the corner.....

For you historians, "The Big Wheel" with Mickey Rooney has a lot of good racing from the late '40's.

[garyshell]

What was the Elvis movie with all the sports car racing in what looked like a desert setting? The movie was typical Elvis cheesey, but some of the scenes of the cars were pretty cool. I think it was "Spinout". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4IMboi2CX8 or Viva Las Vegas http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALlb9iEDdIQ

Gary

[gm99]

You ask how many really good people could work on a movie that was so bad? Really simple actually. When you are making a movie, only a very small few see the script. What is more, the people in the know in racing who were in on the making of this probably just saw enough to maybe be worried, but likely thought "no...it cant be THAT bad. Surely there is more to this that I haven't seen"

Also, they wouldn't have had creative control.

THere was a lot of Canadian racers and the like that worked on this dog and most of them had NO idea. Buddies of mine were extra's and they had no idea what it was going to look like.

No one did...just like many in the NASCAR world couldn't believe what a crappy movie Days of Thunder turned out to be.....

I think you're spot on. Dr Steve Olvey, who participated in the "lake rescue" part of the movie, recalls in his book how excited and impressed he was with the actual filming and how disappointed when he saw the end product.

As for me, I thought the film wasn't all that bad...until the scence came where Stallone and Pardue (sorry, can't recall their movie names) take their race cars straight from a sponsor's event to the streets of Toronto. That really killed it for me.

I guess F1 did the right thing in telling Stallone to find another racing series for his film...

[MDS]

I have found memories of Driven only because I was working for Patrick during the time and one of our drivers, Robert Moreno was referenced in the film.

Another reason that Driven sucks today is its a remind of how far, and how fast Open wheel in America has fallen. It was filled during 2000 (I think) and at that time there were four engine manufacturers, two engine manufacturers, mayor sponsors like Nextell, Shell, Miller Lite, Tecate, Malboro, Players, Target, Tecate, Hollywood tobacco, Visteon, Texaco, Cool, Motorola, Kmart. Some of those companies are still around, others have been banned, most have moved to NASCAR. Both CC and the IRL had decent TV packages. That was just nine years ago, but most of the support evaporated within two years after that film's release date

The other sad thing was originally Stallone just wanted to produce and do a bio-pic on Ayrton Senna, but couldn't get the financing to get that film made, instead ended up with Driven.

[NickFalzone]

MDS, I agree that if nothing else, that the film is a great reminder of how popular open-wheel once was, how far it has fallen, and how far it has to go to get back to similar prominence. I actually thought the film was well made, with lots of great shots and production value (aside from the obvious CG) and at least in that way it truthfully memorialized a time in open wheel racing. Unfortunately many parts of the script were preposterous, and Kip's character reminds me a lot of Marco Andretti, and I sure as hell don't want to watch a movie about Marco. Days of Thunder was at least entertaining IMO. Driven gave me hope that a quality open-wheel racing film could be made, technically, it just needs smarter and more creative people behind the camera.

[NickFalzone]

The other sad thing was originally Stallone just wanted to produce and do a bio-pic on Ayrton Senna, but couldn't get the financing to get that film made, instead ended up with Driven.

A couple years ago I mentioned the idea of an Ayrton Senna biopic to a producer that works with Michael Bay. I believe there's a number of legal hangups on rights issues for the story that have kept this from happening. It would be a great film if Hollywood would ever stop squabbling over a few dollars here and there on rights.

[harvick#1]

all racing movies suck and are rubbish. how they overdramatize racing is unbelievable

except for Lemans and Truth in 24, those 2 are just awesome.

[MDS]

I'd add Dust to Glory to that list. True its a documentary, but its good.

[NickFalzone]

Havent' seen a lot of the older racing movies, I need to catch up. Last Christmas I got a documentary set on NASCAR that I haven't watched yet, if anyone's seen it let me know what you think.

http://www.amazon.com/ESPN-Ultimate-NASCAR-Collectors-Set/dp/B000UNYJP4/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1255660781&sr=8-15

[call_me_andrew]

To say something nice about the movie, I don't think the editing was too bad. There are scenes in Days of Thunder where the cars are supposed to be at Darlington, but you can tell they're clealy in Daytona's tri-oval.

I like pointing out flaws like that when I watch movies.

[NickFalzone]

To say something nice about the movie, I don't think the editing was too bad.

I agree, there were sections like this that really worked well IMO, unfortunately they were surrounded by ridiculous racing and really bad storytelling;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW0hWeSoffI

[garyshell]

I agree, there were sections like this that really worked well IMO, unfortunately they were surrounded by ridiculous racing and really bad storytelling;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW0hWeSoffI


The opening moments of that clip with the real drivers was fabulous. To bad the rest of the movie didn't have the same standards.

Gary

[nigelred5]

There is ample real racing and dramatic crash footage available, even back at that time. There was no reason for the rediculous staged footage they used to dramatize the movie. I guess it wasn't bold and beautiful enough for Hollywood at the time.

[AAReagles]

They are really close to the same level. But in my mind (for whatever that's worth) the story is quite a bit better in Grand Prix. The racing action is probably better in LeMans... Grand Prix puts the whole package together, good story, good racing, good acting, etc.

Corny music though. If it (the soundtrack) had been more like Winning (1969) with musician Dave Grusin at the helm, it would have been better.



What was the movie with Paul Newman, in like '68 or so? Winning? I've never seen it, any opinions?

:up: My fav out of all of them. Though Le Mans is close with it's opening scenes of the Le Mans race getting underway with the Moby Dick Porsche challanging its' Gulf-sponsored competitors.

I liked Winning for the overall quality of acting, storyline, soundtrack and of course, what is now vintage footage of what it was like to race back then in Indy Cars, NASCAR, and the US road racing series' version of Can-Am.

Favorite scene: when Newman takes a stroll around the brickyard in his Ford Thunderbird, prior to the race (scenes), taking all the atmosphere in.

[booger]

Anybody remember that Days of Thunder actually put camera cars in the Daytona 500? I was working with Paramount Pics and there were 3 or 4 non-qualified cars with cameras allowed in the first half of the race. They'd shoot a can of film mounted behind the driver and then come in for a "pit stop" and refill the film cannisters. Was this nuts or what? Never happened before that and never will happen again. But it was wild!

[wedge]

To say something nice about the movie, I don't think the editing was too bad. There are scenes in Days of Thunder where the cars are supposed to be at Darlington, but you can tell they're clealy in Daytona's tri-oval.

I like pointing out flaws like that when I watch movies.

It was actually Dover, not Darlington.

They filmed in Darlington. You could tell from the onboard/camera angles, the distinct buildings outside then turn 1/now turn 3 and the armco off turn 4.

[NickFalzone]

Not to get off-topic here, but one of the things I noticed in the more recent racing films is that they managed to get VERY cool angles, particularly the on-board cameras. I realize that many of these camera mounts would not be realistic on racecars due to aero, etc. but I have to say that I think there's a LOT more that the current tv crews could do to make the racing more visually impressive. NASCAR does a reasonable job of it, but the IRL I think has a ways to go. All they have right now is that one 360 cam on the roll bar. How about a mini cam somewhere in front of the driver looking back? Or a side angle looking 45 degrees off at the driver and towards passing cars and the wall? They did have one cool mount they showed at St Pete, with a camera mounted on the front wing. But never saw that angle again. I realize they're probably tight on budget, but these are the sorts of things that can make the IRL more appealing to casual fans. Heck, the coolest angle would be one from inside the driver's helmet, and I think with current small-camera technology, that could easily be possible.

[call_me_andrew]

Anybody remember that Days of Thunder actually put camera cars in the Daytona 500? I was working with Paramount Pics and there were 3 or 4 non-qualified cars with cameras allowed in the first half of the race. They'd shoot a can of film mounted behind the driver and then come in for a "pit stop" and refill the film cannisters. Was this nuts or what? Never happened before that and never will happen again. But it was wild!

I remember a movie car being entered at Le Mans a few years ago. When they wanted to film the finish scenes, the crew had to try and make the car look dirty in the pits so it would appear to have driven the whole 24 hours.

Most teams clean up their cars so they look nice in the fauxto finish.

[garyshell]

No one has mentioned the Cinerama film, whose title I've forgotten, with Mario as the star. It was more of a documentary, but had some interesting shots. Seeing a CART car go around with the 3 cameras atop the roll bar during filming was interesting to say the least. It was shot mostly in between sessions at race weekends.

There was also a pretty good enduro racing movie, whose name I've also forgotten, made by Michael Keyser (of Toad Hall racing). Also more of a documentary and didn't receive wide distribution.

Lastly, there was a film from the 60s or 70s, a romance I think not about racing but with racing as a back drop that supposedly had some very interesting on track sequences. I never saw it myself.

It was an Imax film called "Super Speedway". Here are a couple of links:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120245/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOzzXkAGXcg&feature=related

My wife and I saw it in Chicago and the Museum of Science and Industry when it first came out. Really cool in IMax.

Gary

[garyshell]

Not to get off-topic here, but one of the things I noticed in the more recent racing films is that they managed to get VERY cool angles, particularly the on-board cameras. I realize that many of these camera mounts would not be realistic on racecars due to aero, etc. but I have to say that I think there's a LOT more that the current tv crews could do to make the racing more visually impressive. NASCAR does a reasonable job of it, but the IRL I think has a ways to go. All they have right now is that one 360 cam on the roll bar. How about a mini cam somewhere in front of the driver looking back? Or a side angle looking 45 degrees off at the driver and towards passing cars and the wall? They did have one cool mount they showed at St Pete, with a camera mounted on the front wing. But never saw that angle again. I realize they're probably tight on budget, but these are the sorts of things that can make the IRL more appealing to casual fans. Heck, the coolest angle would be one from inside the driver's helmet, and I think with current small-camera technology, that could easily be possible.

I remember seeing some unusual camera positions a few years ago, suspension shots ring a bell, and some shots from inside the helmet (Paul Tracy's I think) and some from the dash looking at the driver. I am guessing it was CART not Champ Car.

Gary

[grungex]

It was Champ Car.

[garyshell]

It was Champ Car.


Thanks, I was thinking it was longer ago.. Not sure why.

Gary

[AAReagles]

... Lastly, there was a film from the 60s or 70s, a romance I think not about racing but with racing as a back drop that supposedly had some very interesting on track sequences. I never saw it myself.

I'm wondering if you're referring to The Wild Racers (1968) with Fabian ? Seen bits and pieces of it once, didn't appear to be that good. Looked like they were racing F2 in the scenes I saw, putting them off as F1.

Which I think was Frankenheimer's mistake with GP, though I realize his budget was zip and getting the constructors to cooperate fully would have been a task.

The thing about GP too, was much like Bobby Dearfield (1977) - they were produced a year too soon.

GP would have had the more mature-looking, 3-liter rides.

B. Dearfield would have the more impressive looking JPS Lotus that Mario won the WDC with, not to mention the much improved designs of the Brabham-Alfas and Ferraris. Tyrell too now that I think about it.

[garyshell]

Looked like they were racing F2 in the scenes I saw, putting them off as F1.

Which I think was Frankenheimer's mistake with GP...


Not sure I would call it a mistake. Sure it is not the same car as the F1, but don't think that really takes a thing from the movie.

Gary

[AAReagles]

You're right, as the more I think about it, I believe he really didn't have what he would have liked at his disposal, given the reasons I mentioned before. So it really wasn't his mistake.

I still believe however, IMO, that the 1967 3-liter cars would have been an improvement. With body designs, wider tyres and of course the engines themselves.

[DexDexter]

I managed to catch it on TV again today. In case your wondering, it still sucks.

I watched the credits this time. How can so many people have worked on a movie that was so awful?

What's more embarrassing for me is that it was directed by a Finn, Renny Harlin :rolleyes:

[Mark in Oshawa]

What's more embarrassing for me is that it was directed by a Finn, Renny Harlin :rolleyes:

We don't hold it against you any more than I hold Eki's silly ideas against you. I kind of like you Finn's.....but Harlin shouldn't be allowed to ever direct again. His stupidity and carelessness on a movie shoot here in Ontario led to the burning down of a old inn much loved in the Muskoka district. It was a big scandal at the time.....

[philipbain]

Driven - this is what happens when 2 people have different visions with a little bit of cross-over but are thwarted in realising them so they combine forces to make an extremely compromised picture. Sly Stallone wanted to make a film based around F1, Renny Harlin wanted to make a film based around the life & death of Ayrton Senna (which if you asked me would have made a great film if they did the concept justice) but as Sly hung around F1 for a season and realised that F1 was waaaay too restrictive to make it work and Renny had difficulty getting the studios onside for his Senna flick they combined forces and went to CART who were more than happy to collaborate to gain wider exposure. The script was half baked, although I thought the character development was actually pretty good all that was spoiled by massively OTT crashes and ludicrous set pieces in the racing. Also they should have gone for a more comedy angle and used the actual Mark Blundell instead of Jimmy Blythe (who used the same car / very similar helmet design) with his cockney wit and bad grammar, would have been an improvement for sure!

As for other motor racing films, i'd say that Grand Prix is the best of them, combining awesome cinematography, a great cast, a dramatic plot which keeps within the bounds of realism for the times as well as serving as an excellent piece of historical documentation. Le Mans was fine, but its so light on plot and drama that it may as well have been a documentary, in fact I believe it would have worked much better if it had been a straight forward documentary. As for Winning, I havnt seen it, I have ordered it on DVD from Amazon for £4.18 so i'll check it out! Finally the NASCAR films, firstly Days Of Thunder, some ridiculous bits, some much more sensible parts, again it serves as a snap shot of the cars and tracks of the times, much has changed in NASCAR over the last 20 years. Secondly i'm going to include Talladega Nights, a comedy for sure, but non the less it parodys traditional style southern NASCAR drivers nicely, as well as showing the cars and some of the actual drivers of the times.

Looking at the plus points of the various other films highlights where Driven went wrong, rather than showcasing the actual CART World Series, it used it as a basis for a more F1 style fictional global championship rather than presenting it for what it was, which I feel didn't do CART any favours really.

[chuck34]

Another movie that I just thought of. Of course I can't remember the name, it may have been "Greased Lightning"? It was the movie about Wendell Scott, starring Richard Pryor. It's been quite a few years since I saw it, but I remember it being fairly good.

Another NASCAR movie that I liked a bit was the ESPN movie 3. It seemed to do a good job of telling Dale's life. Although I'm sure it left a bunch out.

[AAReagles]

We don't hold it against you any more than I hold Eki's silly ideas against you...... :laugh:

[philipbain]

As for Winning, I havnt seen it, I have ordered it on DVD from Amazon for £4.18 so i'll check it out!

I have now received and watched Winning, its a decent film, better than most of the genre and provides a nice perspective on american racing in the late 60s. However it isnt a patch on Grand Prix, which is technically better (cinematography & sheer epic quality), has better editing and in my mind has a better story. Also Winning suffers from speeding film up in a method I like to call "Berbie style" (this is particularly aparent in the touring car races), which does nothing other than make the whole thing look unrealistic, Grand Prix went to great lengths to avoid this, indeed at times some of the cars look a little slow, particularly onboard shots at faster tracks like Spa where the F3 based F1 mock-up camera cars are not able to run the same sort of speeds as thier F1 couterparts.

[call_me_andrew]

Also Winning suffers from speeding film up in a method I like to call "Berbie style" (this is particularly aparent in the touring car races),

I think the term your looking for is "undercranking".

[Mark in Oshawa]

Another movie that I just thought of. Of course I can't remember the name, it may have been "Greased Lightning"? It was the movie about Wendell Scott, starring Richard Pryor. It's been quite a few years since I saw it, but I remember it being fairly good.

Another NASCAR movie that I liked a bit was the ESPN movie 3. It seemed to do a good job of telling Dale's life. Although I'm sure it left a bunch out.

Greased Lightning was an excellent film.....

Didn't see 3. Want to. I remember the Petty story done as a movie with Richard playing himself and Darren McGavin was Lee. It wasn't bad as I remember. Most of the footage of races tho was from newsreel and early tv clips...