Silvio Berlusconi: I am inferior to no-one in history [Archive]

Roamy

13th October 2009, 08:03

Well he may be vertically challenged but he has made up for it in other areas.
As far as I know at the moment Italy is one of the premier places to live! Matter of fact I am probably going there for a while next month.. Tonight I had some great Pasta that was just flown in. And have you seen the new ferrari coming. WOW it is hot !! people are just jealous as hell of a great country. Go check out the coming ferrari and tell me you would rather have a mercedes or BMW. If you can honestly say that then you blood has to be colder that the Rhine in January.

Garry Walker

13th October 2009, 08:59

I like Berlusconi

Bezza

13th October 2009, 09:59

pino

13th October 2009, 10:16

I thought Britains government and last couple of leaders were poor, but this guy takes the mickey! He certainly suits the country he is in charge of though, corruption doesn't seem to be a problem over there.

Yes I agree, Italy and all italians sucks big time, while everything and everyone in UK is perfect...

Mark

13th October 2009, 10:20

Yes I agree, Italy and all italians sucks big time, while everything and everyone in UK is perfect...

You have to agree that Italy's governmental situation over the years hasn't been the most stable..

Roamy

13th October 2009, 10:33

You have to agree that Italy's governmental situation over the years hasn't been the most stable..

who cares
many people would rather live in Italy than UK. Plus I would imagine if people wanted to bring up some corruption the UK would not go unscathed. Like in Simon Mann and Mark Thatcher :)

pino

13th October 2009, 11:01

You have to agree that Italy's governmental situation over the years hasn't been the most stable..

You're probably right, but that doesn't mean Italy and all italians sucks ! Anyway knowing Bezza, I should've ignored (as I always do) his comment, but too much is too much... and btw I don't care about Berlusconi and about politics and Italy shouldn't be judged only because of that.

BDunnell

13th October 2009, 15:07

You're probably right, but that doesn't mean Italy and all italians sucks ! Anyway knowing Bezza, I should've ignored (as I always do) his comment, but too much is too much... and btw I don't care about Berlusconi and about politics and Italy shouldn't be judged only because of that.

But surely you must realise that there is no other European nation in which Berlusconi would remotely be taken seriously or tolerated? Maybe you should start to care about politics and realise this, together with the fact that Italy makes every other European country's political scene look positively squeaky-clean.

DexDexter

13th October 2009, 18:10

But surely you must realise that there is no other European nation in which Berlusconi would remotely be taken seriously or tolerated? Maybe you should start to care about politics and realise this, together with the fact that Italy makes every other European country's political scene look positively squeaky-clean.

In most European countries Silvio would be in jail.

BDunnell

13th October 2009, 18:29

In most European countries Silvio would be in jail.

Well, quite.

Roamy

13th October 2009, 23:12

long live Silvio

http://www.ferrari.com/English/GT_Sport%20Cars/CurrentRange/458-Italia/Pages/458-Italia.aspx

Malbec

13th October 2009, 23:38

But surely you must realise that there is no other European nation in which Berlusconi would remotely be taken seriously or tolerated? Maybe you should start to care about politics and realise this, together with the fact that Italy makes every other European country's political scene look positively squeaky-clean.

And in no other country in Europe is the political opposition as weak.

The whole system there needs an overhaul and fresh political blood. Italy does well despite its politicians, not thanks to them.

BDunnell

13th October 2009, 23:56

And in no other country in Europe is the political opposition as weak.

Weakened thanks in part to Berlusconi's own actions aimed at facing down his opponents.

Roamy

14th October 2009, 01:01

in 10 years time Italy will probably be one of the few EU countries that is not under Muslim leadership.

Malbec

14th October 2009, 02:50

Weakened thanks in part to Berlusconi's own actions aimed at facing down his opponents.

Only partly. The anti-corruption campaigns of the last 10-20 years have weakened most of the parties there, it was against that background that Berlusconi first rose to prominence once the old-school politicos had been hounded out.

Mark in Oshawa

14th October 2009, 05:44

ShiftingGears

14th October 2009, 06:20

Berlusconi must be doing something right. No matter what you may think of him as a person, (and he is a bit of egomaniacal weasel) he is running Italy in a way not seen. In a system that has gave Italy's gov't a lot of unstability, he has held onto power and Italy has climbed the ladder of most livable nations since he has been in power. Why is it right of center leaders are always attacked despite the results they often get? They are often not the most warm and loving of people (Silvio is a bit of jerk even to me) but they often are judged on this RATHER than the result. IN this case, Italy is better with him than without him.

Don't forget he introduced a law last year that allowed him immunity from prosecution. Thankfully that was overturned recently - but would you trust someone to run your country if they introduced that law to your country? He also owns, or has direct influence of, 90% of the media.

That, no doubt, has helped him hold onto power when there is accusations of illegal activities, including bribery, on his part.

ShiftingGears

14th October 2009, 06:21

I like Berlusconi

Didn't know you were a fan of corrupt politicians.

Mark in Oshawa

14th October 2009, 07:38

Don't forget he introduced a law last year that allowed him immunity from prosecution. Thankfully that was overturned recently - but would you trust someone to run your country if they introduced that law to your country? He also owns, or has direct influence of, 90% of the media.

That, no doubt, has helped him hold onto power when there is accusations of illegal activities, including bribery, on his part.

I didn't say he was a saint, or completely clean. Didn't say he was likeable, and while he may own a lot of media in Italy, you cant tell me people in Italy are in the dark about Silvio and his affairs. It isn't like he controls internet access or foreign journalists. Heck, he doesn't even know he looks like a jerk so he hasn't the sense to stop being one to the rest of the country. The point still remains Italy is a better place now than it was 20 years ago from what I have been able to gather.

Bezza

14th October 2009, 10:10

Yes I agree, Italy and all italians sucks big time, while everything and everyone in UK is perfect...

Did I say that? Oh dear. Looks like jumping to the wrong conclusions there, fella. UK is far from perfect, but what goes on in Italy is appalling by comparison. Its like having a crap version of Hugh Hefner in charge of the country.

I didn't say all Italians are bad either - again, you thought that yourself from I've said.

This thread is about Berlusconi, so therefore we are discussing him - so your comment "its not all about politics" is irrelevant here.

BDunnell

14th October 2009, 10:57

Berlusconi must be doing something right. No matter what you may think of him as a person, (and he is a bit of egomaniacal weasel) he is running Italy in a way not seen. In a system that has gave Italy's gov't a lot of unstability, he has held onto power and Italy has climbed the ladder of most livable nations since he has been in power. Why is it right of center leaders are always attacked despite the results they often get? They are often not the most warm and loving of people (Silvio is a bit of jerk even to me) but they often are judged on this RATHER than the result. IN this case, Italy is better with him than without him.

Because he is a criminal. Because he has given himself immunity. Are these things to be admired? I hope not. I couldn't care less whether he's a socialist or a raging right-winger. He should not be in power. I realise those of you on the right are feeling a bit marginalised at the moment, but again I'd suggest quitting the whining about how right-wing politicians are so put upon and look at the reality of what an appalling person Berlusconi is.

BDunnell

14th October 2009, 11:04

Did I say that? Oh dear. Looks like jumping to the wrong conclusions there, fella. UK is far from perfect, but what goes on in Italy is appalling by comparison. Its like having a crap version of Hugh Hefner in charge of the country.

I didn't say all Italians are bad either - again, you thought that yourself from I've said.

This thread is about Berlusconi, so therefore we are discussing him - so your comment "its not all about politics" is irrelevant here.

Absolutely right. As I said, maybe Italian people like pino who don't care about politics ought to wake up to the dreadful realities of what Berlusconi has done to the Italian political system.

Mark in Oshawa

14th October 2009, 15:55

Because he is a criminal. Because he has given himself immunity. Are these things to be admired? I hope not. I couldn't care less whether he's a socialist or a raging right-winger. He should not be in power. I realise those of you on the right are feeling a bit marginalised at the moment, but again I'd suggest quitting the whining about how right-wing politicians are so put upon and look at the reality of what an appalling person Berlusconi is.

IS he a criminal? Really? Maybe so....but that is for the Italians to take care of, not for us to stand out at a distance and say tsk tsk because he is still in power. Also, if a politician was put in jail every time a leftie claimed he was a criminal, the jails would be full of right of center politicians. I have no idea if Silvio is a crook or not. I am not reading the papers from Rome every day and I suspect you are not either Ben, but I will say we can and do have crooked politicians on the right and the left. I just know most civilized nations try their criminals as innocent until proven guilty, and it is up to the Italians to judge this guy. Silvio is a cretin on a lot of levels, but Italians like him enough that he is still in power.

As for I am not put upon at all. My country has PM who is right of center, but hardly some idealogue. He has been then PM through 2 elections and has had minorities in Parliament both times. I would wager he is very good at getting along. We also are not putting him up as a cretin or a criminal, even the left in this country cant say that about him.

BDunnell

14th October 2009, 18:01

IS he a criminal? Really? Maybe so....but that is for the Italians to take care of, not for us to stand out at a distance and say tsk tsk because he is still in power. Also, if a politician was put in jail every time a leftie claimed he was a criminal, the jails would be full of right of center politicians. I have no idea if Silvio is a crook or not. I am not reading the papers from Rome every day and I suspect you are not either Ben, but I will say we can and do have crooked politicians on the right and the left. I just know most civilized nations try their criminals as innocent until proven guilty, and it is up to the Italians to judge this guy. Silvio is a cretin on a lot of levels, but Italians like him enough that he is still in power.

Oh come on. Enough of the constant right-v-left claptrap. This is someone who would have been prosecuted several times, and probably convicted, if proper justice had been meted out. Instead of which, he gave himself immunity from prosecution. He has also eroded Italy's press freedoms significantly. This is not someone whose presence in power should be tolerated, and it is very sad that the Italians do so.

Roamy

14th October 2009, 18:09

Gee Dunnell it appears you don't like Italy very much. Are you pissed cuz you drive a lada :)

Daniel

14th October 2009, 18:16

Did I say that? Oh dear. Looks like jumping to the wrong conclusions there, fella. UK is far from perfect, but what goes on in Italy is appalling by comparison. Its like having a crap version of Hugh Hefner in charge of the country.

I didn't say all Italians are bad either - again, you thought that yourself from I've said.

This thread is about Berlusconi, so therefore we are discussing him - so your comment "its not all about politics" is irrelevant here.

I'm sorry Bezza but when you said "He certainly suits the country he's in charge of" that wasn't nice, I mean how would you feel if I said that Gordon suits the UK?

Daniel

14th October 2009, 18:19

Gee Dunnell it appears you don't like Italy very much. Are you pissed cuz you drive a lada :)

He doesn't drive. If I was to put my Jeremy Clarson hat on (perhaps a curly mullet wig would be better?) I'd say he was a sandal wearing tofu muncher :p

Roamy

14th October 2009, 18:29

:rotflmao: :rotflmao:

BDunnell

14th October 2009, 19:15

Gee Dunnell it appears you don't like Italy very much. Are you pissed cuz you drive a lada :)

As it happens, I love Italy, despite its politicians.

BDunnell

14th October 2009, 19:16

I'm sorry Bezza but when you said "He certainly suits the country he's in charge of" that wasn't nice, I mean how would you feel if I said that Gordon suits the UK?

But he clearly does suit it to some extent, hence his popularity, although this is affected by his control of so many media outlets.

Daniel

14th October 2009, 19:24

True enough, but Pino's reaction wasn't unreasonable.

Malbec

14th October 2009, 21:56

IS he a criminal? Really? Maybe so....but that is for the Italians to take care of, not for us to stand out at a distance and say tsk tsk because he is still in power. Also, if a politician was put in jail every time a leftie claimed he was a criminal, the jails would be full of right of center politicians. I have no idea if Silvio is a crook or not.

Ahhh I see, if Berlusconi is a criminal its only because the lefties are accusing him of it?

Why on earth do you think he's so keen to give himself immunity from prosecution? Italy's state prosecutors (to their credit I must add) have been busy digging out corrupt politicians from throughout the political spectrum, left or right over the past decade. They've taken down big targets including one of the state intelligence agencies. They're after him and he's twisting and turning to avoid the charges, mainly by trying to change Italy's laws on the hoof to suit himself.

Honestly by looking at things through a left/right prism you show how little you understand of other political systems. Why then keep making highly judgmental comments when you clearly don't know the full picture?

Italy has improved over the past 20 years, mainly because industry there has organised itself to be more effective and profitable and EU money/trade has strengthened the country. Meanwhile government is still paralysed and national debt keeps building. Whilst I have good friends there I have little to no respect for the political system they are lumbered with. Berlusconi has done nothing to improve the country. If you think I'm wrong, list the reforms he's made.

Mark in Oshawa

15th October 2009, 00:19

Oh come on. Enough of the constant right-v-left claptrap. This is someone who would have been prosecuted several times, and probably convicted, if proper justice had been meted out. Instead of which, he gave himself immunity from prosecution. He has also eroded Italy's press freedoms significantly. This is not someone whose presence in power should be tolerated, and it is very sad that the Italians do so.

I am not saying he shouldn't be prosecuted, but you have convicted him guilty. There has been no trial. If there is one, let it be settled. If the Italians cant be bothered to rise up against this tyrant, then they deserve their fate right? Oh right....I forgot, Italy is not threatening anyone and last I looked, there was no gulags there.

Face it Ben, you don't like the man's politics and his personal behaviour and shady way of dealing with people really makes you hate him. I think he is a buffoon...but I am not convicting the man without a trial. That is called fascism.....

BDunnell

15th October 2009, 01:14

I am not saying he shouldn't be prosecuted, but you have convicted him guilty. There has been no trial. If there is one, let it be settled. If the Italians cant be bothered to rise up against this tyrant, then they deserve their fate right? Oh right....I forgot, Italy is not threatening anyone and last I looked, there was no gulags there.

Face it Ben, you don't like the man's politics and his personal behaviour and shady way of dealing with people really makes you hate him. I think he is a buffoon...but I am not convicting the man without a trial. That is called fascism.....

Yes, there has been no trial, but he himself is responsible for there having been no trial.

I must say I do not take seriously your protestations about my 'convicting Berlusconi without a trial'. Here you are giving him a chance in spite of the long list of alleged misdemeanours to his name, while elsewhere refusing to give any form of chance to certain politicians who happen not to be of a right-wing hue, almost from the moment they were elected. That says a lot about you and the way you form your views, little of it good.

Mark in Oshawa

15th October 2009, 01:32

Yes, there has been no trial, but he himself is responsible for there having been no trial.

I must say I do not take seriously your protestations about my 'convicting Berlusconi without a trial'. Here you are giving him a chance in spite of the long list of alleged misdemeanours to his name, while elsewhere refusing to give any form of chance to certain politicians who happen not to be of a right-wing hue, almost from the moment they were elected. That says a lot about you and the way you form your views, little of it good.

Ben, I find that insulting. I have bent over backwards to listen to your views over the years and what is more, when a leftwing politician does something right, i admit it freely. You however have never once budged off this attitude the right of center guys are all crooks. NOT once, and in this debate, you say Silvio is a crook, and fixed the game against prosecuting him, but tell me what he did. Proof would be nice in fact. The Italian public would be out in the streets if this guy was half as dirty as you claim. I don't like the guy. WHAT more do you want? You want me to agree with you. Sorry, not happening. You have never once agreed with me so why should I cave in to your self proclaimed moral superiority in judging politicians.

I said Silvio is a reptile in all but words but he isn't a crook until someone from Italy tells me he is and where the charges were made and the evidence heard. I didn't even say I liked the guy BUT he must be getting results in Italy, because the Italians have never been shy of dumping someone for another leader in the past. Face the facts, Italy hasn't been a stable country for a lot of years, so I think they know how to dump their leaders.

Mark in Oshawa

15th October 2009, 01:39

Ahhh I see, if Berlusconi is a criminal its only because the lefties are accusing him of it?

Why on earth do you think he's so keen to give himself immunity from prosecution? Italy's state prosecutors (to their credit I must add) have been busy digging out corrupt politicians from throughout the political spectrum, left or right over the past decade. They've taken down big targets including one of the state intelligence agencies. They're after him and he's twisting and turning to avoid the charges, mainly by trying to change Italy's laws on the hoof to suit himself.

Honestly by looking at things through a left/right prism you show how little you understand of other political systems. Why then keep making highly judgmental comments when you clearly don't know the full picture?

Italy has improved over the past 20 years, mainly because industry there has organised itself to be more effective and profitable and EU money/trade has strengthened the country. Meanwhile government is still paralysed and national debt keeps building. Whilst I have good friends there I have little to no respect for the political system they are lumbered with. Berlusconi has done nothing to improve the country. If you think I'm wrong, list the reforms he's made.

You and I agree Dylan. Berlousconi is still untouched as of now, and therefore is to be considered clean. Accusations are made by political opponents all the time in any society, but unless there is something real and tangible, and charges laid, it is just noise.

Ben hates this guy for reasons I can probably grasp. I don't like his personality or the pompousity in which he carries himself, but I don't have a vote, and Italy has been a better society in the last few years than it was from what people from Italy have told me.

Bezza

15th October 2009, 09:57

True enough, but Pino's reaction wasn't unreasonable.

I have been to Italy twice and from my experience my opinion is justified. You don't have to agree with me.

Malbec

15th October 2009, 11:41

Ben, I find that insulting. I have bent over backwards to listen to your views over the years and what is more, when a leftwing politician does something right, i admit it freely. You however have never once budged off this attitude the right of center guys are all crooks. NOT once, and in this debate, you say Silvio is a crook, and fixed the game against prosecuting him, but tell me what he did. Proof would be nice in fact. The Italian public would be out in the streets if this guy was half as dirty as you claim. I don't like the guy. WHAT more do you want? You want me to agree with you. Sorry, not happening. You have never once agreed with me so why should I cave in to your self proclaimed moral superiority in judging politicians.

I said Silvio is a reptile in all but words but he isn't a crook until someone from Italy tells me he is and where the charges were made and the evidence heard. I didn't even say I liked the guy BUT he must be getting results in Italy, because the Italians have never been shy of dumping someone for another leader in the past. Face the facts, Italy hasn't been a stable country for a lot of years, so I think they know how to dump their leaders.

Mark I really do suggest that you learn a little more about Berlusconi.

For your information, allegations made in his first term as PM include money laundering, complicity in murder, dealing with the mafia, tax evasion and bribery. He did not stand trial purely because he used his power as PM to change Italian law to prevent a current PM from being tried. Convenient eh?

Your use of the fact that the guy hasn't seen trial as indication of innocence is laughable, it really is. Don't you get it? He's been using his political powers to alter laws specifically to avoid that.

http://www.economist.com/world/displaystory.cfm?story_id=587107

Your attempt to gloss over this as some kind of left wing 'envy' unfortunately doesn't do credit to you at all. Not even right wing European politicians are keen to be seen in his presence just in case they get associated with him.

Malbec

15th October 2009, 11:46

You and I agree Dylan. Berlousconi is still untouched as of now, and therefore is to be considered clean. Accusations are made by political opponents all the time in any society, but unless there is something real and tangible, and charges laid, it is just noise.

Ben hates this guy for reasons I can probably grasp. I don't like his personality or the pompousity in which he carries himself, but I don't have a vote, and Italy has been a better society in the last few years than it was from what people from Italy have told me.

WRONG.

The fact that he is untouched is merely an indication of how he has misused his powers as PM to give himself immunity. That is an indication of how corrupt he is. It isn't just noise I'm afraid. It certainly isn't an indication of innocence.

Many newspapers outside Italy have described his criminal behaviour with evidence. He has threatened to sue many but has never lodged a case, incredible given the scope of those allegations (try complicity in murder for one). That tells me enough.

Oh BTW, its not his political opponents that are pushing the accusations, its the Italian prosecution service. Its a pity this fact doesn't fit into your left vs right image of things but thats the way it is.

BeansBeansBeans

15th October 2009, 12:06

Mark is one of those people who feels that politics is a sport and he supports Right Wing FC.

Garry Walker

15th October 2009, 12:35

bdunnels hatred of Berlusconi has only strengthened my support for him :D

Daniel

15th October 2009, 12:46

I have been to Italy twice and from my experience my opinion is justified. You don't have to agree with me.

Not saying your opinion was wrong, just that the way your phrased it could have been better.

ShiftingGears

16th October 2009, 00:20

bdunnels hatred of Berlusconi has only strengthened my support for him :D

How very intellgent of you :D

BDunnell

16th October 2009, 14:14

Ben, I find that insulting.

Normally, after a period of reflection, I would tend to apologise for having caused insult. Not this time - I stand by what I said. If it was insulting, you'll just have to live with it. Anyone who sticks up for Berlusconi after his years of corruption and malpractice, while simultaneously criticising Obama - whether rightly or wrongly - for a lack of action in just a few months of office doesn't deserve to have their views taken all that seriously. There is no need to couch everything in right-v-left terms; still less to assume that everybody else does so when they express an opinion related to politics.

Roamy

16th October 2009, 16:38

when does he go on trial???

DexDexter

17th October 2009, 23:42

when does he go on trial???

Probably never, I'm sure there will be another court decision which gives him the immunity back. Or if it finally does go to court, the trial will drag on for years withouth ever really coming to a conclusion . :p

Mark in Oshawa

18th October 2009, 18:31

Normally, after a period of reflection, I would tend to apologise for having caused insult. Not this time - I stand by what I said. If it was insulting, you'll just have to live with it. Anyone who sticks up for Berlusconi after his years of corruption and malpractice, while simultaneously criticising Obama - whether rightly or wrongly - for a lack of action in just a few months of office doesn't deserve to have their views taken all that seriously. There is no need to couch everything in right-v-left terms; still less to assume that everybody else does so when they express an opinion related to politics.

Well, you are wrong. I am not defending Berlousconi as a human. I think he is a slime ball. However you accused him of being guilty of crimes that he hasn't been proven guilty of. No matter matter what, it is up to the Italians to judge him, not us. Furthermore, I have given the benefit of the doubt to Obama in the early days but the proof is in the fact after 8 months he cannot point to one thing he has even passed, much less bore fruit. He was given a Nobel for things he hasn't done yet. Forgive me if saying the emperor has no clothes.

AS for your my opinion is every bit as valid as yours, but you don't seem to realize that. I have given you the ground that Silvio is a slimeball, but that isn't good enough for you. Here ye here ye, Ben is the judge and jury on this one....

BDunnell

18th October 2009, 18:32

Furthermore, I have given the benefit of the doubt to Obama in the early days but the proof is in the fact after 8 months he cannot point to one thing he has even passed, much less bore fruit. He was given a Nobel for things he hasn't done yet. Forgive me if saying the emperor has no clothes.

I agree with your view on the Nobel prize, but the first part of that statement is revisionist in the extreme, isn't it?

Mark in Oshawa

18th October 2009, 18:48

I agree with your view on the Nobel prize, but the first part of that statement is revisionist in the extreme, isn't it?

Not revisionist. Obama hasn't pulled the US out of Iraq, hasn't closed Gitmo, hasn't won the war in Afghanistan, hasn't given the US healthcare reform in the manner in which his left wing supporters have asked, and hasn't managed to stop Iran's nuclear weapons program.

I did say his changing and cancelling some aspects of the missle sheild in Eastern Europe may be a good thing on some level, but the implications of it can be taken either way depending on how the Russians react.

There is a lot of promises he made to his base that he hasn't looked after Ben.

Say what you like about Silvio, someone keeps voting for him and he has changed Italy enough that the regardless of the media, people there can make up their minds. It is their leader, their country, and they can vote for him or toss him out. I think if Italians thought they were worse off than they were before he came along, he would be gone. Italian leaders usually don't hold power too long and yet Silvio has been around a while......

He may be a jerk, slimeball pol...but he has to have some value to the people who elect him. All politicians are accused of being crooked and yet much of it is frustrastion because THEIR side isn't elected.

In Canada, we had 16 years of Pierre Trudeau. He was left, didn't understand the concept of the debt he created, and he created a constitutional crisis with Quebec, but for all that, I would admire his honesty and motives, even if I didn't like his politics. Yet you can find people who would say he was dishonest. I like to debate and disagree on politics, but I wont call people crooks who are NOT. There has to be a lot of proof or at least indicators of misdeeds.....before I will make THAT leap.

BDunnell

18th October 2009, 18:54

Not revisionist. Obama hasn't pulled the US out of Iraq, hasn't closed Gitmo, hasn't won the war in Afghanistan, hasn't given the US healthcare reform in the manner in which his left wing supporters have asked, and hasn't managed to stop Iran's nuclear weapons program.

Not what I meant. I was referring to your claim of having given him a chance. I don't have any recollection of this.

He may be a jerk, slimeball pol...but he has to have some value to the people who elect him.

One could say the same of many leaders that have been deemed unacceptable. Normally, I hate comparisons with Nazi Germany, but it is absolutely true to say that Hitler had a lot of popular support.

Malbec

18th October 2009, 20:49

He may be a jerk, slimeball pol...but he has to have some value to the people who elect him. All politicians are accused of being crooked and yet much of it is frustrastion because THEIR side isn't elected.

I like to debate and disagree on politics, but I wont call people crooks who are NOT. There has to be a lot of proof or at least indicators of misdeeds.....before I will make THAT leap.

The problem is Mark that you entered an argument about Berlusconi with little to no knowledge of what he has done to specifically avoid court.

There is unbelievable evidence against him, for example a British lawyer was found guilty of accepting bribes from Berlusconi and has been sentenced to prison. However despite that, it isn't possible to try Berlusconi for having bribed the guy because of laws put in to prevent just that, by Berlusconi.

This is one level above mere crooked politics and is closer to that practiced by the likes of Putin to keep power, and different to having serious problems with a politicians policies or incompetence.

Bezza

19th October 2009, 13:52

Not saying your opinion was wrong, just that the way your phrased it could have been better.

Well, I only got a B in English at GCSE so I suspect you were of A* standard?

Daniel

19th October 2009, 13:53

Well, I only got a B in English at GCSE so I suspect you were of A* standard?
What does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?

BrentJackson

20th October 2009, 16:24

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/09/berlusconi-boast-best-in-history

Who votes for this guy?

Hey, he makes most other politicians look good. :)

Mark in Oshawa

21st October 2009, 20:52

The problem is Mark that you entered an argument about Berlusconi with little to no knowledge of what he has done to specifically avoid court.

There is unbelievable evidence against him, for example a British lawyer was found guilty of accepting bribes from Berlusconi and has been sentenced to prison. However despite that, it isn't possible to try Berlusconi for having bribed the guy because of laws put in to prevent just that, by Berlusconi.

This is one level above mere crooked politics and is closer to that practiced by the likes of Putin to keep power, and different to having serious problems with a politicians policies or incompetence.

Now See Dylan, I want to thank you for what you have said, rather than Ben's not liking Silvio because he is a slime ball. You have an argument. One that I can buy. Berlusconi however is for the Italians to deal with, just like Germany should have dealt with Hitler by NOT electing him.

My argument was, he was innocent until proven guilty, if not even in court, but at least in the court of debate with something other than that Ben and other's of his ilk don't like him.

That said, the Italians don't seem to be in the streets protesting this weasel. I guess there is a standard for honesty in Italian politics, and even with someone convicted of bribing him, he manages to meet their low standard.

Ok...off with his head then.

See Ben, Provide me with something other than your kneejerk distaste for anyone right of Gordon Brown.

Mark in Oshawa

21st October 2009, 20:58

Not what I meant. I was referring to your claim of having given him a chance. I don't have any recollection of this.

One could say the same of many leaders that have been deemed unacceptable. Normally, I hate comparisons with Nazi Germany, but it is absolutely true to say that Hitler had a lot of popular support.

The Germans did elect Hitler. Yup...and with typical German efficiency they believed like sheep everything he told them too. Just like most elected tyrants, they promise the world and blame others for their deficiencies.

As for Obama, I have not knocked everything he has done, but when he has done nothing I agree with on a practical level, I wont sit here and tell you I agree with him.

I believe unlike Silvio, I don't' think Obama is a slime ball, but I do think he is a far more left wing pol than his campaigning indicated. Furthermore, his dithering on a decision in Afghanistan, his tired way of trying to pour money into the economy hamfistedly and messing with Healthcare are all left wing solutions that have failed on a lot of levels in a lot of situations and nations.

One can be an honest and just man like Jimmy Carter, and be a complete screw up as a leader, while some leaders are a little shady in some parts of their lives, but effective leaders.

Silvio is a bit beyond the level of slime I would like, but hey, he was elected and Italians are putting up with his act.. I would still say he has done other things right. Obama, jury is out, but I don't think my opinion will change any time soon,

Captain VXR

22nd October 2009, 15:57

I want some of what Berlusconi's smoking :s mokin:

DexDexter

23rd October 2009, 09:10

Silvio is a bit beyond the level of slime I would like, but hey, he was elected and Italians are putting up with his act.. I would still say he has done other things right. Obama, jury is out, but I don't think my opinion will change any time soon,

The question is how he was elected, since they guy owns most of the major TV-channels in Italy, for example. Imagine Obama owning NBC, CBS and ABC.

Roamy

23rd October 2009, 09:26

The question is how he was elected, since they guy owns most of the major TV-channels in Italy, for example. Imagine Obama owning NBC, CBS and ABC.

Obama does !!! the only one he doesn't own is foxnews and of course they are the ones that will take him down down down

ShiftingGears

23rd October 2009, 12:15

Obama does !!! the only one he doesn't own is foxnews and of course they are the ones that will take him down down down

Less $hit, more substance please.

Garry Walker

23rd October 2009, 12:22

Imagine Obama owning NBC, CBS and ABC.

During the elections it often seemed as if he actually did own those TV-stations.

Roamy

23rd October 2009, 16:48

thanks Garry

and now they are touting how they controlled the press.

pino

23rd October 2009, 16:53

The question is how he was elected, since they guy owns most of the major TV-channels in Italy, for example. Imagine Obama owning NBC, CBS and ABC.

Berlusconi's Rete4, Canale 5 and Italia 1 have not the largest audience in Italy, RAI has ;)

Mark in Oshawa

24th October 2009, 06:06

Mark is one of those people who feels that politics is a sport and he supports Right Wing FC.

No...I guess you miss the posts I make where I concede points to the opposition. I will will fall over before you or Ben concede anything.

Mark in Oshawa

24th October 2009, 06:09

Berlusconi's Rete4, Canale 5 and Italia 1 have not the largest audience in Italy, RAI has ;)

So basically, if Berlusconi is a slime ball and a crook, as some persist, it isn't like no one in Italy doens't have a media source to air this accusation right?

Leave it to the Italian to verify that yes, their leader is open to scrutiny in the forum of public opinion. Never mind Beans and Ben seem to think the man should be strung up on their say so...

Mark in Oshawa

24th October 2009, 06:10

Obama does !!! the only one he doesn't own is foxnews and of course they are the ones that will take him down down down

He is trying to take Fox down. Not succeeding. Last time I looked, the 1st amendment wasn't repealed.....

harsha

24th October 2009, 06:55

well,I'm glad India ain't the only one with corrupt leadership

Roamy

24th October 2009, 11:54

well,I'm glad India ain't the only one with corrupt leadership

yea but you got no food, wine, clothes, ferraris, shoes, women, f1 tracks, beaches, boats.
So who gives a sh!t if your Gov is corrupt.

Italy is a kick butt country - end of story

harsha

24th October 2009, 12:20

Mark in Oshawa

24th October 2009, 17:37

we've got food...as for clothes,prolly half the stuff you wear comes with a made in India tag...

and we've got italian wines,shoes.......f1 track which is being made,we've got beaches too @ goa...

no indian gives a sh!t if the gov is corrupt though..... :cheese:

Harsha...that is the problem. You should care if your government is corrupt. The Italians should care if THEIR government is corrupt. Apparently they are either happy with it or haven't voted Silvio and his womanizing to retirement. However, it isn't up to me or anyone else to tell you how your government is corrupt. If you guys don't care, I think it is wrong, but it is your country.

Also, if my opinion matters, India is reasonably well run considering the number of linguistic and ethnic minorities, the history, and the level of poverty. Running India isn't like any other nation in the world save China perhaps....So I would almost expect some level of corruption.